#lot of modus tollens in this post

[qiu-yan]

“Within the novel of MDZS, no guardians (aside from Yu Ziyuan) are shown to talk to their children the way Jiang Cheng does.” > nie mingjue has entered the chat 

thanks for your reply! i can see how you’ve come to your conclusions too. to be honest i do suspect a lot of it comes down to cultural differences, plus some fundamental differences in how we approach analyzing works of fiction. 

sorry for being kind of bitchy about the quotes, and thanks for providing more context/surrounding text this time. that’s really helpful.

regarding point two:

first, i'm glad that we agree that jiang cheng does not physically abuse jin ling. i'm also glad that we agree that, at the very least, jiang cheng and jin ling's relationship is not the same as that between yu ziyuan and jiang cheng himself.

second, regarding the excerpts from the second siege of the burial mounds scene you pulled: you are correct in your assessment that, in that scene, jiang cheng is much colder and harsher towards jin ling than the other parents are to their children. jiang cheng really could stand to not be so cold to jin ling in this scene, and it’s pretty sad that he isn’t. evidently this guy has been pickling in resentment, grief, and uncertainty for the past few years, and it has affected his parenting. he’s certainly not a perfect parent. 

that said, i don’t think jiang cheng’s behavior here is necessarily representative of how he always acts? one has to remember that jiang cheng in the text of MDZS is at the most emotionally unstable he’s been for all of the past 13 years, since wei wuxian’s return means that all of jiang cheng’s wounds are getting dug open again. in this scene, not only are they in a highly dangerous hostage situation, jiang cheng is also already irritated with jin ling for having disappeared for the past few days, and is also dealing with the incredibly complex and nasty emotions that must have arisen from wei wuxian’s return and the public’s realization of said return. 

i also just don’t think jiang cheng’s behavior in this specific scene is abusive. he’s being quite cold, but i wouldn’t call it verbally abusive. 

third, regarding the following scene at jinlintai that you discussed here (here’s how it goes in the seven seas translation): 

Jin Ling trailed out after Jin Guangyao, still not daring to see Jiang Cheng on his own. He hid behind Jin Guangyao and mumbled a greeting. “Jiujiu.” “You still know to call me jiujiu?!” Jiang Cheng reprimanded sharply. Jin Ling hurriedly tugged the back of Jin Guangyao’s jacket. Jin Guangyao, who seemed born to resolve conflicts, appeased Jiang Cheng thusly. “Aiyah, Sect Leader Jiang, A-Ling already knows he was wrong. He’s been fretting so much about you punishing him that he hasn’t been able to eat these past few days. Children are mischievous. You dote on him the most out of us all, so don’t be so hard on him, okay?”  Jin Ling hurriedly added, “Yes, yes, that’s right! Xiao-shushu can back me up, my appetite has been terrible!”  “Terrible?” Jiang Cheng scoffed. “You look fine enough; I doubt you’ve missed any meals!”  Jin Ling was about to talk back again when he noticed Wei Wuxian behind Lan Wangji and was instantly stunned. 

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy 

i don’t think i’ll be able to fully convey my own reading to you, but i read this scene quite differently? to me, nothing in this scene indicates that jin ling is being abused. instead, everyone in this scene - even both jin ling and jiang cheng theselves - seems to be used to this kind of scene and are therefore largely unconcerned. jiang cheng does not read to me as actively threatening; instead, he sounds like a Wronged Mother. istg my own mom has said 你还知道叫我吗 (you still know to call me mother?) in that exact tone of voice. i also don’t consider jin ling hiding behind jin guangyao in this specific scene to be indication of any particularly outstanding avoidant behavior, since in my experience, teenagers trying to get the other parent to defuse the first parent’s anger when the first parent is annoyed with them is quite normal. just as it’s normal to want to hide from your parent when you know they’re going to lecture you about not having done your homework. 

i also think that concluding that jin ling has a more positive relationship with jin guangyao than he does to jiang cheng, simply because jin guangyao is verbally smoother to jin ling, is...a shallow reading of the text. first, one must consider that MDZS’s traditional chinese setting is highly patriarchal. in chinese history, traditionally only been the paternal side of one’s relations have had any staying weight; when a woman marries out of a family, she is considered to be a member of her husband’s family and her ties to her original family cut. if we follow traditional chinese convention, then, jin guangyao as jin ling’s paternal uncle should be jin ling’s primary parental figure; jiang cheng, jin ling’s maternal uncle, should not be in jin ling’s life at all. 

yet, in the text of MDZS, it is repeatedly jiang cheng who jin ling goes to for help, jiang cheng who shows up for jin ling’s milestone events, and jiang cheng who jin ling shows his tears to. by contrast, while jin guangyao is verbally gentler with jin ling, he is also more distant from jin ling and does not appear to spend nearly as much time with or emotional energy on jin ling as jiang cheng does. even in a purely modern setting, one would already conclude from these interactions that jin ling is thus closer to jiang cheng; given the social-historical context of the difference between a maternal uncle and a paternal uncle mattering, the fact that jin ling and jiang cheng are spending this much time together is huge. 

(this isn’t even to dunk on jin guangyao. he just was not emotionally attached to jin zixuan in the same way that jiang cheng was emotionally attached to jiang yanli.) 

on top of all this, there’s also the fact that wei wuxian and lan wangji are directly in this scene. wei wuxian is repeatedly established to be someone who cares deeply about jin ling and who is quite intelligent. so i think that, if we were really meant to see this interaction as evidence of jin ling being abused, then wei wuxian’s internal narration would have commented on it somehow. even if wei wuxian cannot directly act in this scene due to being disguised as mo xuanyu, if he were truly concerned about jin ling’s wellbeing, he would find some way to divert jiang cheng’s attention. at the very least, he would begin to raise concerns about jiang cheng’s parenting with jin ling when he encountered jin ling one-on-one later.

that wei wuxian does not do this, then, has one of two potential explanations. one, wei wuxian is okay with jin ling being abused. two, wei wuxian does not think jin ling is being abused. given wei wuxian’s personality, option two is far more likely. 

fourth, regarding your claim that the way in which jiang cheng speaks to jin ling is unique…..i found this claim of yours to be rather interesting, because my own experience is completely different. i’ve read and listened to some of jiang cheng’s original dialogue; to me, his cadence, word choice, and subject matter in speaking to jin ling are all incredibly familiar. 

first, the way jiang cheng speaks to jin ling is just how many parents in my real-life community speak to their children. these children (my peers), just like jin ling, by and large know they can shrug off the acerbic nagging. and my peers who most brazenly talk back to their parents are usually the people most secure in their parents’ love for them. 

i’ve also watched countless cdramas, both historical and modern-day, in which mothers (it’s pretty much always mothers) berate and nag at their children in the exact same way that jiang cheng berates jin ling. compared to the various mothers scene across countless cdramas, jiang cheng’s speech patterns are completely typical. 

in both the cdramas i’ve watched and in real-life interactions i’ve observed, one of the primary indicators of the child’s sense of safety is how freely they talk back to their parents. if the parent and child are actively screaming at each other, then the relationship is probably not good; meanwhile, if the child is just quietly standing there while their parent dresses them down (as with the case between jiang cheng himself and yu ziyuan), that indicates the child may be legitimately scared of their parent. instead, it’s when the child is freely talking back to their parent and giving as much sass as they get, that we generally conclude that the child feels safe around the parent and secure in the knowledge that their parent loves them. 

now, you also said that you have not seen any other fictional parent and/or guardian save yu ziyuan herself, both in MDZS and in other xianxia works, speak to their children in the same way that jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. to be honest, i find this incredibly difficult to believe. in my experience, this is simply not true. this claim is not even true within MDZS itself, since multiple other parental figures in MDZS - none of whom MXTX intends for us to read as villains - treat their children with equal if not greater levels of harshness.  

the following section is quite long, so here is everyone i’m going to discuss: nie mingjue, madame jin, wen qing, and chu wanning. 

first, just look at the example of nie mingjue and nie huaisang. nie mingjue is not nie huaisang’s father; however, given the large age difference between the two, the fact that their father died when nie mingjue was incredibly young, as well as the fact that nie mingjue subsequently ascended to the position of sect leader nie and made nie huaisang his heir, indicates to me that nie mingjue did play a heavily parental role to nie huaisang. this is corroborated by the fact that it is nie mingjue who repeatedly checks on nie huaisang’s grades at the gusu lectures, and who keeps trying (unsuccessfully) to get nie huaisang to practice the saber - both roles highly associated with (asian) parents. clearly nie mingjue is at once a brotherly and a paternal figure for nie huaisang; he can be considered to be nie huaisang’s guardian. 

and nie mingjue, nie huaisang’s guardian, speaks to nie huaisang incredibly harshly. he regularly pushes nie huaisang to practice the saber and keeps an eye on nie huaisang’s grades at the gusu lectures; when nie huaisang weasels out of practice and/or is caught being lazy in some other manner, nie mingjue reacts with anger, which then translates into a verbal lashing. 

consider the following scene, in which jin guangyao visits nie mingjue in order to begin playing the song of clarity for him, and during his visit gifts nie huaisang several fans. wei wuxian sees this scene through his empathy spell. (note that this scene takes place before jin guangyao has actually played any guqin songs at all for nie mingjue, meaning that, at the time of this scene, nie mingjue is entirely unpoisoned.) for clarity, i will refer to this scene as [Nie Scene 1]. 

Nie Scene 1: 

One day, upon returning to the Impure Realm, [Nie Mingjue] entered the main hall to see a dozen or so gold-edged folding fans unfurled and lined up before Nie Huaisang. Nie Huaisang was fondly stroking them one at a time, mumbling to himself as he compared the inscriptions on each fan. Veins instantly popped on Nie Mingjue’s forehead.  “Nie Huaisang!”  Nie Huaisang immediately dropped to the ground, startled into a kneeling position. He clambered to his feet afterward in trepidation and stuttered a greeting. “Da-da-da-da-ge!” Nie Mingjue demanded, “Where is your saber?”  Nie Huaisang stammered, “In…in my room. Wait, no. At the drilling grounds. No, I… Let me think…”  Wei Wuxian could sense Nie Mingjue’s desire to hack him to bits right where he stood. “You carry dozens of fans with you, but you don’t even know where your own saber is?!”  “I’ll go look for it right now!” Nie Huaisang said hastily.  “Forget it!” Nie Mingjue barked. “You can’t learn anything with it, even if you find it. Burn all of these!” The color drastically drained from Nie Huaisang’s face. He scooped all the fans into his arms in a panic, saying, “Da-ge, please don’t! These are all gifts from someone!”  Nie Mingjue cracked the table with one slam of his palm. “Who was it? Tell him to get the hell over here!”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy 

in Nie Scene 1 here, nie mingjue speaks every bit as harshly to nie huaisang as jiang cheng has ever spoken to jin ling. frankly, the text speaks for itself. nie huaisang’s behavior angers nie mingjue; in reaction, nie mingjue berates nie huaisang, threatens to destroy his possessions, is described by the narration as feeling the urge to physically harm nie huaisang, and physically breaks furniture in front of nie huaisang. nie huaisang in turn reacts to nie mingjue’s actions with meekness, hesitance, and fear. if jiang cheng is verbally harsh towards jin ling, then in this scene (and other scenes like it), nie mingjue is at the very least matching that level of harshness, if not even exceeding it. 

moreover, if jin ling is exhibiting avoidant behavior with regard to jiang cheng in the jinlintai scene you quoted, then nie huaisang is also doing the same in this Nie Scene 1 here, as the scene continues below: 

Nie Scene 1 continued: 

Jin Guangyao strode into the hall. Nie Huaisang exclaimed in delight, as if he’d just sighted his savior. “San-ge, you came!”  It wasn’t that Jin Guangyao could appease Nie Mingjue’s fury—just that that fury was immediately transferred to him as soon as he showed up, leaving Nie Mingjue too preoccupied to scold anyone else. So it really wasn’t much of a stretch to call him Nie Huaisang’s savior. Overjoyed, Nie Huaisang repeatedly greeted, “Hello, san-ge!” as he hurriedly scooped the tableful of fans into his arms. Seeing his younger brother like this, Nie Mingjue was so angry that he now found it faintly ludicrous. 

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy 

just as jin ling is hiding behind jin guangyao from jiang cheng’s irritation in the section you quoted, here, nie huaisang also aims to use the exact same jin guangyao as a buffer between himself and nie mingjue’s rage. one has to wonder if jin ling’s behavior makes jin guangyao feel some nostalgia; perhaps that’s why he seems so unconcerned and amused even by his own standards in the jinlintai scene. again, this establishes to me that nie mingjue’s treatment of and words towards nie huaisang is every bit as harsh as jiang cheng’s treatment of and words towards jin ling, if not more so. therefore, if jiang cheng is verbally abusive to jin ling, then one must call nie mingjue verbally abusive to nie huaisang based solely on the above excerpt alone as well. 

however, i do not believe that we are meant to read nie mingjue’s words in the above Nie Scene 1 alone as verbally abusive. while nie mingjue verbally berates nie huaisang and threatens him in the above scene, and while nie huaisang does react with nervousness and panic, nie huaisang does not run away from the scene: instead, once jin guangyao starts explaining that he’s here to play the song of clarity, nie huaisang immediately begins nosing into the topic with open curiosity and zero fear that nie mingjue is actually going to carry out his threats. instead of fleeing nie mingjue’s wrath at his earliest convenience, as someone who was truly scared of nie mingjue would do, nie huaisang only leaves when nie mingjue directly tells him to go away. in addition, while nie mingjue does threaten to burn nie huaisang’s possessions, the narration later on notes that this is in fact a regular idle threat that nie mingjue has never actually carried out, which nie huaisang also trusts that nie mingjue will never actually carry out. much like jiang cheng’s threats to break jin ling’s legs, i suppose. 

more generally, nie mingjue is also not a villain. he may be overly inflexible in his ethics, and he may speak harshly, but he is also one of the people most strictly adherent to a code of ethics in the entire story. the fact that he loves nie huaisang cannot be challenged. the fact that nie huaisang loves him as well cannot be challenged, either: why else would nie huaisang embark on an unnecessary 10+ year plot of targeted destruction just to avenge nie mingjue’s death? 

since nie mingjue’s speech towards nie huaisang is matching or even exceeding the harshness levels of jiang cheng’s speech to jin ling, the converse of what i said earlier must also be true: if nie mingjue is not verbally abusive to nie huaisang, then jiang cheng cannot be called verbally abusive to jin ling either. either both of them are verbally abusive in their everyday behavior, or neither of them are. 

what’s interesting about Nie Scene 1 is that it contrasts a later scene also involving nie mingjue and nie huaisang, in which nie mingjue’s behavior is actively worse. i will refer to this second scene as Nie Scene 2. the story deliberately contrasts these scenes in order to establish that nie mingjue’s behavior in Nie Scene 2 is out of character, and that Nie Scene 2 evidences nie mingjue’s mental decline from the saber sickness and sheer rage from jin guangyao's behavior. in the following few paragraphs, i will discuss this Nie Scene 2, in which nie mingjue does indeed spectacularly flip his shit. i must preemptively establish, though, the difference between the above Nie Scene 1 and the below Nie Scene 2: Nie Scene 1 is one where [nie mingjue is behaving normally and is not yet affected by saber sickness], and Nie Scene 2 is one where [nie mingjue is behaving abnormally, is affected by saber sickness, and is infuriated due to jin guangyao]. this contrast is crucial to assessing nie mingjue’s behavior. 

this Nie Scene 2, set at the unclean realm, takes place a few days after nie mingjue confronts jin guangyao over the issue of xue yang, is infuriated by jin guangyao’s refusal/inability to turn xue yang over for execution, and subsequently kicks jin guangyao down the jinlintai stairs. in this scene, jin guangayo visits the unclean realm again to play the song of cleansing for nie mingjue, and finds nie huaisang once again half-assing his saber training.

Nie Scene 2: 

“Nie Huaisang, do you want me to cleave your head with this saber?! Get the hell back here!”  If only Nie Huaisang could feel, as Wei Wuxian did, the force with which Nie Mingjue’s anger blazed at that moment—then he would not grin as cheekily. “Da-ge, it’s time for a break!”  “You only just took a break one incense time ago,” Nie Mingjue scolded. “Continue until you master this.”  Nie Huaisang was still feeling complacent. “I’m never going to master it anyway. I’m not training anymore today!”  This was something Nie Huaisang always used to say. But Nie Mingjue’s reaction was unexpectedly completely different from what it had been before. He bellowed, “Even a pig would have already mastered it under my watch, so why are you not getting it?!”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy 

before we can really get into the meat of nie mingjue’s meltdown, let’s look at these preliminary lines of dialogue to once again establish nie mingjue’s previous, baseline, unaffected-by-saber-sickness behavior. here, nie mingjue is berating nie huaisang and threatening him because nie huaisang is slacking off at saber practice. however, instead of reacting with fear, nie huaisang responds with cheek and casualness, and very much does not obey nie mingjue. that nie huaisang responds to nie mingjue’s threats with zero fear and zero change in his behavior indicates to me that, historically, all of nie mingjue’s threats and shouting have been bluster, and that in the past nie huaisang has gotten away completely with ignoring nie mingjue’s nagging. this is supported by the fact that, in this scene, the narration notes that nie huaisang’s flippant replies are “something Nie Huaisang always used to say,” and also by the fact that, when nie mingjue actually does become angrier and push the issue, the narration specifically notes that this behavior is “unexpectedly completely different from what it had been before.” 

unfortunately for huaisang, this time nie mingjue is really feeing that saber sickness, so his reaction now is going to be quite different. let’s continue with Nie Scene 2: 

Nie Scene 2 continued: 

Not expecting this sudden outburst, Nie Huaisang cowered toward Jin Guangyao, dumbstruck. At the sight of the two together, Nie Mingjue’s anger surged even higher.  “It’s been a year, and you still haven’t mastered a single set of saber techniques. Complaining after spending a single incense time in the drilling grounds—I’m not asking you to be outstanding, but you can’t even defend yourself! How did the Nie Clan of Qinghe produce such a good-for-nothing?! The two of you ought to be tied up and beaten every day! Fetch all those things from his room!” This last sentence was directed at the sect disciples standing by the side of the drilling grounds. Nie Huaisang was on tenterhooks as he watched them leave. A short while later, the disciples returned, having really fetched all the calligraphy, paintings, porcelain wares, and folding fans from his room.  Nie Mingjue had always gone on about burning his things in the past but had never actually done it. This time, however, he meant business. Nie Huaisang panicked and lunged over. “Da-ge! You can’t burn them!”  Seeing this did not bode well, Jin Guangyao piped up too. “Don’t be rash, da-ge.”  But Nie Mingjue had already swung out his saber, engulfing the pile of exquisite things at the center of the drilling grounds in a towering, raging fire. Nie Huaisang let out a tragic wail and pounced into the fire to save them. Jin Guangyao hurriedly pulled him back to stop him. “Huaisang, careful!”  Nie Mingjue struck out, and the two items of white porcelain Nie Huaisang had grabbed from the fire shattered to pieces in his hands. The scrolls of calligraphy and paintings had already turned to ash. Nie Huaisang watched, speechless and helpless, as all the beloved objects he had collected over the years, from all around the world, were consumed by the flames.  Jin Guangyao grabbed his palms to inspect them. “Were you burned?” He turned to the other sect disciples. “Might I trouble you to go prepare some medicine?” The sect disciples acknowledged him and left to do so. Nie Huaisang stood rooted to the ground, his whole body shaking as he looked at Nie Mingjue with eyes that were gradually growing bloodshot. Jin Guangyao, noticing this, put his arm around his shoulders.  He said softly, “Huaisang, how are you? Don’t watch this anymore. Let’s go inside to rest.” Nie Huaisang’s eyes continued to redden. He remained silent. Jin Guangyao continued, “It’s no big deal if they’re gone. San-ge will find more for you in the future…”  “He brings those things into the house again, and I’ll burn them all too,” Nie Mingjue said coldly.”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy 

two things. first, this is straight up worse than anything jiang cheng says or does to jin ling. nie mingjue insults nie huaisang - compares him unfavorably to a pig and says he should be beaten - with a level of cruelty that jiang cheng does not speak to jin ling with. moreover, nie mingjue destroys not just some, but pretty much all of nie huaisang’s art collection. jiang cheng has certainly never destroyed this many (or any at all) of jin ling’s personal possessions anywhere in the text. however you may feel about the question of whether or not jiang cheng abuses jin ling, you have to admit that what nie mingjue is doing here to nie huaisang is worse. 

second, this behavior is meant to be read not just as shocking, but specifically as shockingly out of character. nie mingjue’s behavior here can in fact be read as abusive - however, it is also clearly not how he usually behaves. instead, nie mingjue’s poor behavior here is direct evidence that the saber sickness plus rage at jin guangyao's behavior a few days ago is taking a toll on his cognition and mental stability.

here, let me discuss what conclusions about nie mingjue MXTX intends for us to draw, and how those intended conclusions then compare to conclusions MXTX may want us to draw about jiang cheng. 

in order to achieve the effect of highlighting nie mingjue’s mental decline, MXTX deliberately contrasts this Nie Scene 2 and the previous Nie Scene 1, in which nie mingjue berated nie huaisang as he typically did, without any mental decline involved. now, let’s consider the question of whether or not MXTX intends for us to read nie mingjue’s regular, non-saber-sickness-affected behavior as abusive as well. personally, i think no. nie mingjue speaks harshly to nie huaisang in Nie Scene 1, yes; however, if the contrast between Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2 is to successfully become stark enough to serve as solid evidence of nie mingjue’s mental decline, then it makes much more sense for MXTX to intend for us to read Nie Scene 1 as ordinary and non-abusive. from MXTX’s point of view, if she writes Nie Scene 1 as non-abusive and Nie Scene 2 as abusive, then the contrast between the two scenes becomes much more apparent, and the reader can immediately see what lan xichen and jin guangyao mean when they say that nie mingjue’s saber sickness is beginning to really affect him. however, if both Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2 are meant to be read as abusive instead, then this contrast effect is lost. 

based on this reasoning about the deliberate contrast between Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2, i conclude that nie mingjue’s behavior in Nie Scene 1 is not meant by MXTX to read as abusive, verbally or otherwise. 

now, i have previously established that nie mingjue’s behavior and speech towards nie huaisang in Nie Scene 1 is every bit as harsh as jiang cheng’s behavior and speech towards jin ling in general. and as i said earlier, if jiang cheng is verbally abusive to jin ling, then one must call nie mingjue’s baseline + non-saber-sick speech, based on the above excerpt alone, verbally abusive to nie huaisang as well; if nie mingjue’s non-saber-sick speech is not verbally abusive to nie huaisang, then jiang cheng cannot be called verbally abusive to jin ling either. either both of them are verbally abusive in their everyday behavior, or neither of them are. and since i have just established that MXTX does not intend for us to read nie mingjue’s typical, non-saber-sick speech as abusive, then i must conclude that MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng’s speech as abusive either. 

of course, one can read all of this and still conclude that nie mingjue has been verbally abusive towards nie huaisang right from the start, even without any saber sickness and mental decline involved. however, the point nonetheless stands that nie mingjue speaks just as harshly to nie huaisang as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. even if you must call nie mingjue's baseline level of speech verbally abusive, the fact that nie mingjue speaks like that at all already disproves your claim that only yu ziyuan and jiang cheng speak to their children like thus.

second, madame jin berates her son, jin zixuan, in pretty much the exact same way. consider this excerpt, taken from the phoenix mountain night-hunt; in this scene (in which madame jin had been trying to get jin zixuan and jiang yanli together), after jin zixuan and jiang yanli’s conversation is interrupted by wei wuxian, a confrontation between jin zixuan + jin zixun and wei wuxian escalates and draws the attention of madame jin. 

Jin Zixuan was blank for a moment. “Mother! Why have you come?”  It was then that he realized that both his and Lan Wangji’s sword glares had shot into the sky. Of course Madam Jin would come after witnessing that from the observation deck. He glanced at the many Jin Clan cultivators who’d come with her. “Why did you bring so many people with you? I don’t need you to interfere with the Siege Hunt.”  Madam Jin clicked her tongue. “Don’t flatter yourself. Who said I’m here for you?!” She saw Jiang Yanli shrinking behind Wei Wuxian. Her expression immediately softened, and she went over to take her hands and gently comfort her.  “A-Li, what a state you’re in.” “I am fine, Madam, thank you,” Jiang Yanli replied. Madam Jin was quick on the uptake. “Did that damned brat bully you again?” she asked. “Oh, no,” Jiang Yanli quickly denied. Jin Zixuan jerked. He seemed to want to speak but held himself back. As if Madam Jin wasn’t aware of what her own son was like! Easily able to guess what had transpired, she immediately flew into a rage and loudly rebuked her son.  “Jin Zixuan! Do you have a death wish?! What was it that you told me before you came out here?!”  “I…!” Jin Zixuan tried, but Wei Wuxian cut in.

MDZS Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Peony for the Soon Departed 

and then, a bit later in the same scene: 

“Oh, please don’t be angry, A-Li,” Madam Jin pleaded. “Just tell me what stupid thing that foul, stubborn brat of mine has done this time. I’ll make him apologize to you properly.”

MDZS Seven Seas Translation, Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Peony for the Soon Departed 

in this scene, just like nie mingjue above, madame jin is also every bit as scathing towards jin zixuan as jiang cheng is towards jin ling. of course, it is possible to conclude that madame jin also verbally abuses jin zixuan, especially given her friendship with yu ziyuan. but i don’t think we’re really meant to draw that conclusion. first, jin zixuan is clearly willing to try and talk back in this scene in a way that jiang cheng never once was with yu ziyuan. there is also the fact that madame jin is continuously kind to jiang yanli, and in jiang yanli’s later scenes with madame jin, she does not seem wary of madame jin’s interactions with jin zixuan in the same way that she was wary of yu ziyuan’s interactions with wei wuxian and jiang cheng. finally, we do actually know what madame jin looks like when she’s abusing someone, since she is in fact verbally and physically abusive towards jin guangyao - and that is very much not how she treats jin zixuan. 

there is also the fact that the text goes out of its way to highlight madame jin’s grief at jin zixuan’s death: 

The Madam Jin in Wei Wuxian’s memory was ruthlessly efficient and resolute…But right now, what Wei Wuxian saw was an ordinary middle-aged woman. She had graying hair at her temples and was dressed in plain white robes of mourning. She had no makeup on, revealing her ashen complexion and her dry, cracked lips. …She drew a deep breath and adjusted her expression as if she wished to don her usual air of dignity.  But her eyes reddened before she could fully inhale.  She had never allowed herself to show the slightest hint of sorrow in front of Jiang Yanli. The moment she stepped outside, however, the corners of her mouth fell and her features seemed to collapse in on themselves. Her entire body started to shake.

MDZS Seven Seas Translation, Vol. 4, Chapter 18: Night Flight 

this is a clear portrait of a woman emotionally devastated by her son’s death, of a woman who truly loved her son. now, it’s entirely plausible to conclude that madame jin truly loved her son and also verbally abused him. however, madame jin also is such a side character that she doesn’t even get her own name; her son, though a plotwise important character, is also given almost no characterization. as such, we can conclude that madame jin’s narrative role is less to be a complex character in her own right and more just to fill in the role of “madame jin.” in this light, [a woman who clearly loved her son but also was verbally abusive towards him] is far beyond the complexity required to fulfill this story role, and is therefore probably not what MXTX intended. meanwhile, if we really were meant to read madame jin as verbally abusive, then the emotions of this scene would become much more muddled than MXTX intended. 

therefore, i feel confident in concluding that madame jin is not intended to be read as verbally abusive towards jin zixuan, even though she speaks to him just as scathingly as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. on top of this, there is also the fact that jin ling is even more comfortable talking back to jiang cheng in a way that jin zixuan clearly is not with madame jin - which indicates to me that jin ling also feels more secure around jiang cheng than jin zixuan felt around madame jin. 

again, of course one can read all of this and still conclude that madame jin verbally abuses jin zixuan, since madame jin is established as a rather assholeish character (at least, to jin guangyao). however, the point nonetheless stands that madame jin speaks just as harshly to jin zixuan as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. even if you must call madame jin’s speech verbally abusive, the fact that madame jin just does this in the open indicates that, within the world of MDZS, speaking to one’s children with this level of verbal harshness is in fact culturally normal - it is not the jiang-cheng-specific rarity that you are portraying it as. 

now let’s look at another example. jiang cheng’s harsh rebukes of jin ling are also rather similar to the way in which wen qing speaks to wen ning, in the few scenes they have together in which they actually speak to each other (it turns out that wen ning and wen qing don’t actually have that many lines of dialogue in which they’re just speaking to each other, since wen ning is either missing or an unconscious fierce corpse for most of wen qing’s scenes). obviously, wen qing is not wen ning’s parent or legal guardian. however, wen ning’s weak constitution and need for medicine combined with wen qing’s high ability and status in wen ruohan’s court does indicate to me that there is some power difference between the two; i find it reasonable to conclude that (a somewhat parentified) wen qing has probably been responsible for wen ning’s wellbeing and protection for most of their lives. 

consider this dialogue, taken from the scene after wen ning sneaks wei wuxian and jiang chen ginto wen qing's supervisory office, and wen qing accepts that the latter two are going to be staying at her supervisory office in secret for a bit of time: 

Wen Ning hurriedly nodded. “Thank you, jiejie!”  A packet of medicinal herbs was tossed in from outside the door.  “Put in some effort if you really want to thank me!” Wen Qing scolded from afar. “What the hell was that medicine you decocted earlier? Redo it!”   The packet of medicinal herbs smacked right into Wen Ning, but he still very happily said, “Any medicine my sister prepared is sure to be good. A hundred times better than mine. Superb, for certain.”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 3, Chapter 12: Sandu: The Three Poisons 

while this is just one line of dialogue, the acerbic tone here is rather reminiscent of how jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. scolding jin ling with a “what the hell was [that martial arts form / archery shot / talisman drawing / etc]? redo it!” and then throwing something at jin ling does seem very much like something jiang cheng would do. in addition, the fact that wen ning reacts with happiness and does not at all seem surprised or upset by wen qing’s rather harsh address to him indicates to me that wen qing frequently speaks to wen ning this way, that her scolding him in this harsh manner is normal and expected - this in turn makes wen qing even more similar to jiang cheng. 

yet we are obviously not supposed to conclude that wen qing is verbally abusive towards wen ning. instead, her other actions indicate that she loves wen ning, arguably more than anything else in the world, and that he knows this. instead, the conclusion we are meant to draw here is that wen qing shows her affection to wen ning (and later to wei wuxian) through verbal sternness, scoldings, and harsh words. to be honest, this is also the conclusion i draw about jiang cheng. and part of the reason why i draw that conclusion about jiang cheng is specifically that the way he speaks to jin ling is so similar to the way wen qing, established to be a deeply loving character despite her prickly exterior, speaks to wen ning, wei wuxian, and her other loved ones. 

now i have listed a number of MDZS characters - nie mingjue, madame jin, and wen qing - who speak to their charges with similar, equal, and even greater levels of verbal acidity than jiang cheng speaks to jin ling with. therefore, i must disagree with your claim that “[w]ithin the novel of MDZS, no guardians (aside from Yu Ziyuan) are shown to talk to their children the way Jiang Cheng does.” none of the characters i listed are meant to be read as villains. nie mingjue, for all his flaws, is repeatedly established to have an ironclad code of ethics; furthermore, the fact that nie huaisang enacted a 10+ year plan of vengeance over his murder indicates to me that nie huaisang truly loved nie mingjue and was devastated by his death. madame jin is kind of an asshole character (to jin guangyao specifically), but her straightforwardly kind treatment of jiang yanli and her emotional devastation at jin zixuan’s death both indicate to me that she truly loved jin zixuan. wen qing is a straight-up heroic character and no one can doubt how much she loves wen ning. and yet, all three of these MDZS characters speak to the children and charges under their care with every bit as much verbal harshness as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. the fact that this many verbally acerbic, non-villainous parental figures do in fact exist in the MDZS story indicates to me that jiang cheng’s verbal harshness to jin ling is not particularly culturally unusual. furthermore, my analysis as to why none of these characters should be read as being abusive towards their specific charges also indicate to me that i should not read jiang cheng as abusive either, since his behavior matches theirs. 

now, since you also said that you “have yet to see any other non-villainous parents or guardians talking to their children the way Jiang Cheng or Yu Ziyuan do in the xianxia novels I've read since MDZS,” let’s also discuss these other xianxia works. in general, i also find this claim very difficult to believe, because (in my experience as a chinese person), the relatively harsh treatment of children, to at least the levels of harshness established by jiang cheng and often exceeding said levels, is pretty much normalized and accepted in the genre. 

first, physical violence itself against children is already a commonplace trope in chinese historical, wuxia, and xianxia fiction. just take a look at MDZS’s gusu lan, for one: wei wuxian straight up gets physically beaten for violating the gusu lan sect rules, and no one bats an eye. meanwhile, in MXTX’s SVSSS, the current peak lord of baizhan peak, the peak specializing in marital arts, is liu qingge; the story directly states that liu qingge’s style of “teaching” is just beating up all prospective disciples until they either figure things out or leave. 

now, if we want to look at a combination of verbal lashings and actual physical lashings, we need look no further than erha’s chu wanning. chu wanning, the romantic lead of erha, is repeatedly established by erha’s narration to be a poor little meow meow so misunderstood by the world, who is socially unsuccessful because others don’t understand him, and who is also uniquely in possession of an ironclad, incorruptible code of righteousness. in other words, erha’s narration goes out of its way to establish that it loves chu wanning and that he is meant to read as straightforwardly good and heroic. 

chu wanning is also both verbally harsh and physically violent towards his disciples, pretty much from the moment he appears in the story. not only does he speak to his disciples with every bit of verbal acidity with which jiang cheng speaks to jin ling - if not more, even - he also far exceeds jiang cheng’s behavior by also physically whipping the disciples of his peak with his actual spiritual weapon. jiang cheng, at the very least, never whipped jin ling with zidian with the intent to cause him physical harm. chu wanning, by contrast, is out here whipping minors with tianwen (one of his three spiritual weapons, a willow branch) hard enough to draw blood and to consign disciples hit by it to the infirmary. 

and despite this behavior, the story of erha still ultimately concludes that he is heroic. while mo ran (the narrator and protagonist) and his narration do initially dunk on chu wanning as scary and overly strict, the narration comes around on chu wanning incredibly quickly after a certain spoiler moment - despite the fact that chu wanning’s verbal and physical harshness do not change. in fact, instead of castigating chu wanning for his harsh behavior towards his students, the erha story instead just treats said behavior as evidence that chu wanning is a huge tsundere. 

(as you can probably tell, i’m not a huge fan of this book.) 

all this is to say that, in xianxia and wuxia works, both verbal and physical harshness towards children under one’s care is incredibly normalized, to the point where it’s pretty much a trope of the genre. to put it in other words, this behavior is in fact “something both normal and acceptable in the culture,” or at least in the genre. 

finally, let’s take another look at what MXTX intends for us to conclude about jiang cheng, jin ling, and breaking the cycle. i agree with your assessment that jin ling is incredibly brave and ultimately chooses the path of integrity largely of his own power. however, i do still think that children at that age are still heavily influenced by their upbringings in a way that adults are not; therefore, that jin ling is able to choose the path of integrity and forgiveness at the end of the novel speaks highly of jiang cheng’s parenting, since jiang cheng is the one adult with whom jin ling has the strongest relationship. 

i do also think that MXTX intends the ending of the novel as it pertains to the juniors specifically to read as straightforwardly hopeful. as you said, the juniors are meant to represent a straightforward hope for the future. and i think that this hope is meant to exist without any major caveats or exceptions. it is for this exact reason that i conclude MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng as abusive. 

because if MXTX did want us to read jiang cheng as abusive, she would have had jin ling decisively cut him off at the end of the story. the portion of MDZS’s ending dedicated to the juniors is not meant to be bittersweet or tragicomic; instead, the reader is supposed to be able to invest a straightforward and undiluted hope in the juniors. if jiang cheng was meant to be read as abusive, and then the story ended without jin ling cutting him off, then the junior portion of MDZS’s ending is no longer happy - instead, it becomes quite sad, since jin ling is still stuck with a parental figure who abuses him. therefore, the fact that MDZS ends with jiang cheng and jin ling’s relationship fully intact - that it ends with jin ling not cutting jiang cheng off, but rather running after him and nagging him about what it was he wanted to but did not say to wei wuxian - and that this ending is meant to be read as hopeful, indicates to me that we are not meant to read jiang cheng as abusive. 

now, i’ve read some takes that claim that, postcanon, jin ling will try to distance himself from jiang cheng. i do not agree with these takes. for one, there is nothing in the text of the ending or the extras that indicates that this is something jin ling wants to do. instead, the novel ends with jin ling running off after jiang cheng; the extras (particularly the iron hook extra) then establish that jiang cheng and jin ling still have a strong relationship, with jiang cheng go ing as far as to storm jinlintai to ensure that no one tries to steal jin ling’s birthright. now, the text of the iron hook extra does state that jin ling tried to get jiang cheng to leave - however, as wei wuxian accurately figures out, jin ling did that out of concern for jiang cheng: he did not want people to start accusing jiang cheng of trying to take over the jin sect. 

Wei Wuxian knew Jin Ling wasn’t willing to show weakness, so he said, “Go to your uncle more often if something’s wrong.” “It’s not like he’s a Jin,” Jin Ling answered coldly. Wei Wuxian was taken aback when he heard this, but then understanding hit him. Caught between laughter and tears, he raised a hand and smacked Jin Ling on the back of his head. “Talk sense!” …Covering his head, [Jin Ling] hollered, “Why did you hit me?!” “I hit you to remind you to think of your uncle,” Wei Wuxian said. “He’s not a busybody who likes meddling in other people’s affairs, but for your sake, he goes to other people’s houses to throw his weight around. In turn, he gets fingers pointed at him. And you write him off as ‘not a Jin.’ Surely he’d be bitterly disappointed to hear that.” Jin Ling was stunned for a moment, then began to rage. “I didn’t mean it that way! I—” “Then what did you mean?” Wei Wuxian replied. “I!” Jin Ling said. “I…”  The first “I” was full of bluster, while the second “I” was deflated.  “I, I, I. I will help you say what you mean,” Wei Wuxian said. “Jiang Cheng may be your uncle, but he’s still an outsider to the Jin Clan of Lanling. He’s already intervened a few times to help you, but if he continues to overstep his authority in other people’s domains, it will become an excuse for others to denounce him in the future, which will cause him trouble. Am I right?” Jin Ling fumed. “Duh! So you do understand! Then why did you hit me?!” Wei Wuxian backhandedly smacked him again. “That is why I’m hitting you! Can’t you just come out with whatever you have to say? How does such a nice sentiment sound so offensive when it comes from your mouth?!”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 5: Extra 5: The Iron Hook 

this excerpt is also interesting for another reason: as stated above, the text thoroughly establishes that wei wuxian cares deeply for jin ling’s wellbeing and that wei wuxian is an intelligent person. given this and wei wuxian’s own background with yu ziyuan, wei wuxian should logically be able to recognize if jin ling is being abused, and also care enough about jin ling to intervene. thus, if jiang cheng really is meant to be read as abusive, wouldn’t our righteous hero wei wuxian just say to jin ling that jiang cheng is abusing him? if we really are meant to conclude that jin ling would be better off without jiang cheng, wouldn’t our loving hero wei wuxian tell jin ling to leave jiang cheng and free himself - something jin ling is entirely capable of doing, since he’s now the leader of lanling jin, an entirely different sect from yunmeng jiang? why is wei wuxian instead telling jin ling to go to jiang cheng more often? why is wei wuxian instead highlighting what jiang cheng has done for jin ling’s sake? why is wei wuxian instead telling jin ling to be more mindful of jiang cheng’s feelings? 

this implies to me that postcanon wei wuxian does not think of jiang cheng as being abusive towards jin ling. and, given everything else i have written above, i think that we are meant to agree with wei wuxian here - just as we are also meant to agree with wei wuxian about pretty much all the other conclusions he draws at the end of the story. i think that this is a big part of why MXTX refers to jiang cheng as a “knife mouth and tofu heart” in her interviews. 

as you might have noticed, this writeup deals more heavily with the thesis that [MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng as abusive to jin ling] than it does with the thesis [jiang cheng does not abuse jin ling]. these are not the same thing. as i will further explain in my second response, you as the reader are free to disagree with the conclusions the author intends for you to draw about the events depicted in a story. personally, i do not think that jiang cheng is abusive to jin ling, verbally or otherwise - to me, his speech and behavior towards jin ling read as culturally normal. however, i do not expect to be able to persuade you to see things the same way. you are free to disagree with me and MXTX. 

regarding point three:

before i say anything else, i must say that you cannot assess the events of MDZS by typical xianxia-genre rules. first of all, MDZS is far closer to a wuxia than a xianxia: it is far more low-fantasy than typical xianxia works, and it lacks the highly established golden core development pipeline that the vast majority of xianxia works boast. instead, the fact that cultivating a golden core in MDZS is a binary affair - you either have one or you don’t - as well as the focus on marital arts over cultivating to immortality, indicates that MDZS is more of a wuxia. this is further evidenced by the fact that MXTX said during an interview that she was inspired in part by the writing of jin yong, one of the genre pioneers of wuxia.

second, MDZS does not play the typical wuxia or xianxia tropes straight, but rather subverts them. in fact, i would go as far as to say that MDZS is a deconstruction of typical xianxia and/or wuxia tropes. wei wuxian’s entire character arc, for one, is a massive deconstruction of the “unambiguously evil modao final boss” trope that often appears in xianxia works; taking this trope that readers of xianxia and wuxia must be familiar with and then turning it on its head is central to MDZS’s conceit. furthermore, the fact that the world of MDZS does not operate by wuxia rules is very much significant to MDZS’s central themes about face and reputation. in wuxia works, characters can go from fighting each other to the death to swearing brotherhood rather easily, and a single skilled martial artist can in fact stand up alone agains the hatred of the world. this is….noticeably not the case in MDZS. in fact, the fact that this is not the case in MDZS, that these genre rules do not apply to the grittier and more cynical world of MDZS, is quite important to the story, actually! 

therefore, we cannot assess the events of MDZS using typical xianxia-genre rules or wuxia-genre rules. we cannot assume that, just because something would work in a certain way in other xianxia or wuxia works, the same thing would work in MDZS. while something along the lines of “my follower was just overcome with passion and righteous anger and then failed to temper his actions” might fly in other, non-deconstructive xianxia or wuxia works, the same cannot be said of MDZS - because MDZS is not a conventional xianxia or wuxia work at all. 

now let me address the rest of your rebuttal. this response will focus disproportionately on two of your claims, and therefore may not feel entirely satisfactory. those claims are: 

yunmeng jiang’s position was not particularly weak. 

jiang cheng’s actions (or lack of actions) in the meeting scene were driven primarily by emotions of resentment, anger at being disrespected by wei wuxian, and hatred of the wens; considerations and fears of political ramifications for yunmeng jiang did not enter into his thinking. 

i disagree with both of these claims. this may lead me to disagree with what i think MXTX aims for me to conclude from the events she describes, but i find that disagreement acceptable. let me explain what i mean below. 

first, let me establish this: just because the text of the story does not directly state something, or the text of the story directly states something else, does not in fact mean that said something is not true. sometimes, we are the reader not only can but are also directly meant to read between the lines and come to our own conclusions as to what is actually going on. this can still be true even when our conclusions may disagree with what the narration itself directly tells us; such is the hallmark of unreliable narration. 

to illustrate what i mean, let’s consider the following excerpt (unrelated to the current topic of discourse), in which wei wuxian asks a drunk lan wangji what lan wangji thinks of him: 

Wei Wuxian pointed at himself with a wide, happy grin. “What about this one?”  “Mine,” Lan Wangji answered. “…” Lan Wangji gazed intently at him and repeated, impeccably, clearly, emphasizing the word, “Mine.”  Wei Wuxian suddenly got it. He took off Bichen and thought, I pointed at myself just now, but Lan Zhan probably misunderstood “this one” as Bichen on my back.”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 1, Chapter 7: The Morning Dew

here, what wei wuxian concludes is that, when lan wangji says “mine,” he is referring to bichen. the narration directly backs up wei wuxian by stating: “wei wuxian suddenly got it.” however, anyone with a brain can tell you that wei wuxian did not in fact “get” anything. because what lan wangji actually meant when he said “mine” was wei wuxian himself. 

notice that "lan wangji was referring to wei wuxian" is not directly stated in the text! there is no direct quote from the text that says “when lan wangji said ‘mine,’ he meant wei wuxian himself.” however, the fact that there is no quote directly saying so does not make this any less true. instead, MXTX means for us to draw this conclusion ourselves by reading between the lines. 

with this toy example, i hope i have established the importance of reading between the lines and drawing simple, logical conclusions from the given information - this framework will be essential to the rest of this analysis.  

now, let us discuss my first point: i believe that yunmeng jiang’s postwar position, even years later, was still very weak. while there is nothing in the text that directly states yunmeng jiang is still in a weak position, there is nothing in the text that directly states that yunmeng jiang has recovered to its previous position of social prestige, wealth, manpower, and political influence either. therefore, this matter can be theorized on. and it is with this same framework - of reading between the lines and drawing my own logical conclusions from the given information - that i come to this conclusion. here is a full breakdown as to why: 

here are some of the canon, concrete facts we are given: 

1A: the yunmeng jiang sect was almost completely annihilated by the qishan wen sect immediately before the sunshot campaign's beginning. this includes all of yunmeng jiang’s leadership, elders, disciples both senior and junior - basically everyone except wei wuxian, jiang cheng, and jiang yanli. in addition, during the earlier half of the sunshot campaign, lotus pier was occupied by qishan wen. 

1B: during the sunshot campaign, sect leader jiang wanyin recruited enough new disciples to yunmeng jiang to allow him to retake lotus pier.

1G: [postwar], wei wuxian's ghostly cultivation has attracted a number of new disciples to yunmeng jiang. however, wei wuxian's ghostly cultivation is also increasingly attracting critics.

from the above facts, i feel very confident in concluding that yunmeng jiang was still in a very weak position by the time wei wuxian attacked the qiongqi pass camp. 

first, since all of yunmeng jiang’s manpower save three people was wiped out by qishan wen right before the start of the sunshot campaign, all of yunmeng jiang’s current manpower must consist only of disciples recruited by jiang cheng during the sunshot campaign (1B), disciples recruited by jiang cheng after the conclusion of the sunshot campaign, and/or disciples drawn to yunmeng jiang by wei wuxian’s ghostly cultivation (1G). let’s first consider the quality / fighting power of the these disciples. as stated before, they all must have been recruited either during or after the sunshot campaign. given that it has only been a “few years” since the sunshot campaign’s conclusion, it is safe to conclude that these disciples (even the ones recruited at the earliest possible time, ie. during wartime) have received comparatively little formal training under yunmeng jiang relative to the disciples of other sects: either they are adults, most likely former rogue cultivators, coming in and learning the yunmeng jiang style of battle at a later point in their life, or they are juniors still learning to fight and cultivate at all. the yunmeng jiang disciples who grew up training alongside each other in a shared battle style no longer exist. therefore, i feel confident in concluding that the current body of yunmeng jiang disciples lacks the battle unity and familiarity with each other that disciples of other sects would have, which would make them a weaker fighting force than the disciples of other sects. 

in addition, a side note about the disciples drawn in postwar by wei wuxian specifically: given that wei wuxian himself repeated shows zero interest in teaching others ghostly cultivation (see how he ignores the would-be followers camped out on his doorstep once he starts living in the burial mounds), it is also safe to conclude that large swathes of the people drawn in by the promise of learning ghostly cultivation from wei wuxian cannot be relied upon the in long run; it’s likely they’ll leave once they realize wei wuxian isn’t going to teach them ghostly cultivation. 

second, there is also the fact that lotus pier, the seat of yunmeng jiang’s power, was occupied by qishan wen for significant portions of the sunshot campaign. a sect’s power comes not just from its manpower, but also from the money, books/texts, treasures, artifacts, and other resources in its possession. however, since yunmeng jiang’s seat of power and territories were all conquered by qishan wen at the beginning of the sunshot campaign, it is completely reasonable to conclude that yunmeng jiang’s resources were all stolen away by qishan wen. such is typical practice in warfare: when you take over parts of your enemy’s territory, you seize their resources for yourself. you feed their grain to your own troops and people, you spend their money to outfit your troops and fund your advances, you transport the choicest of their treasures back to your own domains; even as the enemy returns and chases you out of the lands you stole from them, you can still employ a tactic of total warfare and destroy what you can’t take with you so your enemy can’t have it. the most likely outcome by far is that, when jiang cheng returned to lotus pier, he found lotus pier’s coffers emptied and its treasuries looted. 

this then means that, upon the end of the sunshot campaign, yunmeng jiang must have been much poorer than all of the other great sects. now, a few years have passed, so it is likely that in that time jiang cheng was able to recoup some of lotus pier’s wartime losses. however, all of the other sects - all of the other great sects, especially, none of which were actively occupied in the same way yunmeng jiang was occupied - have been accumulating funds, treasures, books/texts, and other resources since their vey founding. there is simply no logical way jiang cheng could, in a mere handful of ears, accrue enough wealth to match the funds and resources of a sect that had never been conquered and plundered by an enemy. this goes doubly so for the jin sect. 

wealth is power. the fact that yunmeng jiang in this postwar period must have been poorer than the other great sects - poorer, in fact, than even the smaller sects that were never fully conquered - naturally entails that yunmeng jiang is in a weaker political position. 

third, let’s then consider yunmeng jiang’s political influence. i think it’s safe to conclude from the text itself that postwar yunmeng jiang’s political influence was diminished. instead of writing another few paragraphs about a conclusion i believe to be obvious, let’s just look at what happened in the story. the jin party that wei wuxian crashed, which pretty much every important player in the jianghu had been invited to (including characters like lan wangji, who actively dislikes events like these), did not include jiang cheng. he wasn’t invited. during the meeting in which everyone confronts jiang cheng, jin guangshan does not address jiang cheng like an equal: rather, he takes on a paternalistic, condescending tone of voice and continues to address jiang cheng in the way a benevolent superior addresses an inferior. even after jiang cheng leads the first siege of the burial mounds, the gossipers still refer to him as the “little sect leader.” all of this indicates a lack of respect for jiang cheng as a sect leader from the general public. the cultivation gentry looks at jiang cheng, this teenage leader, and does not respect him. and a lack of respect for a sect’s leader naturally translates into a lack of respect for the entire sect - which means that yunmeng jiang does not command the same political influence as the other great sects do. 

based on this analysis, i feel entirely confident in concluding that yunmeng jiang’s position postwar was severely weakened, and that yunmeng jiang did not have the same wealth, manpower, political influence, or security that the other great sects had. and yes, none of this is directly stated in the text. however, i have a brain and i have opened a history textbook before. i am capable of drawing conclusions with my own power from the events described in the text. and since MXTX chose a backstory as drastic as “the entire yunmeng jiang sect was wiped out and its territories subsequently occupied,” it is only natural that i would draw similarly drastic conclusions about events after this annihilation on my own - that i would look at other stories and real-life cases in which entire territories were wiped out and conquered, and conclude that the consequences that entailed in those situations would also entail here. perhaps MXTX expects us to understand that significant historical events have long-term ramifications and simply does not see the need to hand-hold us to that obvious conclusion. 

now, let’s think a bit more about yunmeng jiang’s position in comparison to the other great sects. here’s a repeat of some more of the facts listed above: 

1C: after the fall of qishan wen, there are four great sects remaining. a "great sect" is a sect that is more famous, more influential, and typically more powerful than the others in the jianghu; the great sects are considered leaders among the cultivation sects and the flow of power follows them.

1D: high-ranking members from the other three great sects - the lan, the jin, the nie - swore brothehood with each other after the sunshot campaign ended. these high-ranking members are sect leader lan xichen, sect leader nie mingjue, and sect leader jin guangshan's newly recognized war-hero son, jin guangyao.

1E: after the sunshot campaign, the lanling jin sect was the richest, most powerful, and most politically influential in the jianghu.

in other words, three of the four remaining great sects are now tied together via sworn brotherhood, which in turn entails a long-term alliance between them. doubly so, since 2 out of the 3 member of the sworn brotherhood are literally the leaders of their sects. yunmeng jiang, in turn, has not been included in this triumvirate; instead, apart from a tenuous engagement between jiang yanli and jin zixuan (which will go up in smoke if yunmeng jiang formally stands with wei wuxian), yunmeng jiang stands alone. 

now, it would be one thing if there were twenty or so great sects - then it would just appear as if three great sects whose high-profile members are good friends have tied themselves together via alliance. however, as things currently are, there are only four great sects. therefore, three of the four great sects forming an alliance is also going to draw attention to the last of the four sects, because the fact that it was excluded is now blatantly obvious. third-party observers watching this sworn brotherhood will naturally wonder: why was the fourth great sect excluded? why did zewu-jun, chifeng-zun, and lianfang-zun choose to exclude yunmeng jiang? does this not mean that yunmeng jiang now stands alone? 

there is also the more simple and obvious fact that, if yunmeng jiang and lanling jin ever do have a formal dispute, then gusu land and qinghe nie will be expected to side with lanling jin. this, plus the fact that postwar lanling jin is the strongest and richest of all the sects (due to having avoided the brunt of the war), means that if it ever comes down to it, the vast majority of all the other sects are also going to stand with lanling jin, against yunmeng jiang. 

this is all to say that, yunmeng jiang’s political position at this moment is incredibly weak. and that, if there ever were a real dispute between lanling jin and yunmeng jiang, yunmeng jiang - a weak yunmeng jiang - would stand alone. 

of course, as you said, none of this is stated directly in the book. however, as i said above, i am capable of drawing my own conclusions regarding the political situation from the information the book does give us. from my own experience in studying history, watching historical cdramas and other such fiction, and just in living my own life as a member of society, the above are what the established facts of the situation entail for yunmeng jiang’s postwar situation. more accurately, the above is what the given facts about the situation entail if we follow the rules of politics that the vast majority of both fiction and real-life history follow. if MXTX intended for us to come to a different conclusion, then she should have directly established that the politics of her setting differ vastly from politics everywhere else. 

now, let me discuss my second point, which is my disagreement with the following claim: "jiang cheng’s actions (or lack of actions) in the meeting scene were driven primarily by emotions of resentment, anger at being disrespected by wei wuxian, and hatred of the wens; considerations and fears of political ramifications for yunmeng jiang did not enter into his thinking."

in order for me to explain what i mean, i must first explain how i approach the analysis of fiction. the way i see it, most fictional stories about a series of events occurring tend to include at least the following:

the concrete events that occurred

the conclusions you are supposed to draw about the characters and situation from aforementioned concrete events

now, when it comes to forming my own analysis of the text as the reader, i generally cannot disagree with #1 (unless i'm willing to argue something along the lines of "it was all a dream"). however, when it comes to #2, i as the reader have the right to disagree with the conclusions the author is trying to pull me towards. for example, even if the text itself states "events A, B, and C occurred, and they entail only D about [character]," i am still free to instead conclude that, based on my own understanding of [character] and of events A, B, and C, that said events entail both D and E.

i have the right to disagree with the conclusions the author intends for me to draw from the text because - while the author's own intent does exist - once the story is released into the world, the only thing that exists is the text of the story itself. the author's own comments about how they intend for their work to be read should no longer hold weight to readers forming their own analyses of the story. furthermore, i think that this same reasoning applies to analytical statements present in the text itself. for example, if the text directly states "A is not to blame for XYZ occurring," but the rest of the text clearly shows a cause-and-effect relationship between A's actions and XYZ, then i am free to disagree with the text and conclude that A is in fact at least somewhat to blame for XYZ occurring.

the fact is that you as the reader are not coming into the work as a pure-white piece of paper. rather, when you read a work, you bring into it your own experiences and knowledge accrued from a lifetime of living in a society with other people. intelligently engaging with a work of fiction entails not just blindly accepting everything the author tells you about the story's events; rather, if the story features a series of events you can follow, you should use your own brain to draw your own conclusions about said events - even if your own conclusions may disagree with those of the author.

now let me explain how this reasoning applies to my reading of jiang cheng’s situation in MDZS. in order to explain what i mean, i will apply the above framework i provided (ie. #1: the concrete events that occurred, and #2: the conclusions you are supposed to draw about the characters and situation from aforementioned concrete events). 

ONE: here are the concrete facts we are given about the postwar political situation. several of these are repeated from the above earlier analysis. 

1A: the yunmeng jiang sect was almost completely annihilated by the qishan wen sect immediately before the sunshot campaign's beginning. this includes all of yunmeng jiang’s leadership, elders, disciples both senior and junior - basically everyone except wei wuxian, jiang cheng, and jiang yanli. in addition, during the earlier half of the sunshot campaign, lotus pier was occupied by qishan wen. 

1B: during the sunshot campaign, sect leader jiang wanyin recruited enough new disciples to yunmeng jiang to allow him to retake lotus pier.

1C: after the fall of qishan wen, there are four great sects remaining. a "great sect" is a sect that is more famous, more influential, and typically more powerful than the others in the jianghu; the great sects are considered leaders among the cultivation sects and the flow of power tends to follow them.

1D: high-ranking members from the other three great sects - the lan, the jin, the nie - swore brothehood with each other after the sunshot campaign ended. these high-ranking members are sect leader lan xichen, sect leader nie mingjue, and sect leader jin guangshan's newly recognized war-hero son, jin guangyao.

1E: after the sunshot campaign, the lanling jin sect was the richest, most powerful, and most politically influential in the jianghu.

ONE: here are the concrete facts we are given about wei wuxian's recent actions:

1F: wei wuxian has been flouting social convention by refusing to carry his sword anywhere. wei wuxian responds to provocations with rather arrogant bluster.

1G: wei wuxian's ghostly cultivation has attracted a number of new disciples to yunmeng jiang. however, wei wuxian's ghostly cultivation is also increasingly attracting critics.

1H: in order to locate wen ning, wei wuxian stormed into a party hosted by the lanling jin (at which jiang cheng was not present), threatened everyone at the party, compared lanling jin to qishan wen, and threatened jin zixun into telling him wen ning's whereabouts.

1I: wei wuxian killed at least four jin supervisors at the qiongqi pass labor camp. wei wuxian escaped from the qiongqi pass labor camp with the wen remnants in tow, fled to the burial mounds, and erected a shield of fierce corpses around the burial mounds to prevent anyone from following him in.

TWO: here is your analysis as to what i think we are meant to conclude about jiang cheng's motives here:

2A: the text in these scenes focuses heavily on jiang cheng's anger and ill feeling, as well as his hatred of the wen.

2B: the text in these scenes also focuses on jiang cheng's ill feelings over wei wuxian supposedly not respecting jiang cheng's authority and undermining him as leader.

now, here is where i express my own thoughts on the matter. if what we are meant to conclude about jiang cheng's immediate reactions to wei wuxian's actions (ie. jiang cheng’s behavior during the meeting in which everyone confronted him over wei wuxian's attack on the qiongqi pass labor camp, and his subsequent confrontation of wei wuxian at the burial mounds) is that he was driven primarily by personal emotions such as anger and hatred, then i disagree. as i explained above, the facts of this situation and the greater political landscape indicate to me that there are in fact a lot of political concerns to be had. furthermore, the text has already established that jiang cheng is someone who is highly considerate of potential consequences and therefore rather conservative in his action-taking. therefore, i consider the claim of "in refusing to stand up for wei wuxian and the wen remnants, jiang cheng was motivated primarily by emotions of resentment, anger, and hatred" to be fallacious. the idea that someone as considerate of consequences as jiang cheng would not give any consideration to the political ramifications that, to me, are incredibly obvious, simply does not make logical sense. 

first, as i explained above, yunmeng jiang’s postwar position during this scene must logically still be quite weak. furthermore, facts 1H and 1I under point ONE indicate to me that wei wuxian has quite thoroughly alienated lanling jin. since wei wuxian is yunmeng jiang’s first disciple and not just some no-name rando, this means that wei wuxian’s actions are also considered on the political stage to be representative of not just himself but rather his entire sect. this then means that all of yunmeng jiang is on the hook for wei wuxian’s actions. this is why jiang cheng, the leader of yunmeng jiang, is called to the meeting with all the other sect leaders to provide accountability for what wei wuxian has done. 

based on this, we can conclude that yunmeng jiang during this scene is in fact in a very dangerous position. that, if jiang cheng does not give the jianghu the proper indication that he does not approve of wei wuxian’s actions, then it will be all of yunmeng jiang and not just wei wuxian himself who has made an enemy of lanling jin. lanling jin might verbally say in this scene that “oh, it’s fine, it’s just that wei wuxian also killed/hurt cultivators from other sects…” but you cannot take that at face value. 

now, as you said in your reply, and as i repeated above under point TWO, perhaps what MXTX may intend for us to conclude is that jiang cheng’s behavior during that meeting was dictated primarily by his emotions of resentment, hatred for the wens, and anger at wei wuxian for not respecting his authority; that, while the political ramifications were there, jiang cheng in that scene was not thinking about said political ramifications for his sect and everyone in it. the narration in that scene does, after all, only mention jiang cheng’s negative emotions, and no any other actual reasoning. 

it is true that jiang cheng is feeling a lot of exhaustion, anger, agitation, and hatred for the wens in that scene. nie mingjue’s rebuke reminded him of the lotus pier massacre, which naturally inflamed his anger. jin guangshan and everyone else’s barbs about wei wuxian also dig into jiang cheng’s most heavily-felt insecurities: that wei wuxian doesn’t actually care about him or yunmeng jiang, that wei wuxian wants to leave. (regarding hatred towards the wens versus a debt of gratitude towards the wen siblings specifically: what’s interesting is that while we and wei wuxian know that wen ning only came to lotus pier after hearing about the lotus pier massacre, specifically because he wanted to check on wei wuxian, nothing in the text indicates that jiang cheng knows this. it is entirely likely that all jiang cheng knows about the situation is that wen ning had also been at lotus pier. from this, it would then be entirely plausible for jiang cheng to conclude that wen ning had come with wen chao and participated, no matter how reluctantly, in the massacre of lotus pier.) 

however, if MXTX intends for us to conclude that ONLY these emotions were driving jiang cheng’s actions, and that he was not concerned about his sect in this scene, then i disagree with what MXTX intends for me to conclude about that situation. and, as i explained above, as the reader this disagreement is my right. 

here is where i must say something unfortunate: in comparison to other works i’ve read, i find the political worldbuilding of MDZS to be incredibly lackluster. there are no shortage of holes in the worldbuilding that introduce logical fallacies and contradictions into the story. for example, the story establishes that sects in MDZS are based on lineage and not ability (as is typically the case in xianxia and wuxia stories); despite the importance this would then naturally lend to establishing a solid line of succession, none of the great sect leaders post-timeskip save jin guangyao are married. this, to me, is a worldbuilding plot hole. as another example, wen zhuliu’s core-melting hand is a complete game-changer when it comes not just to warfare, but to the intersect political landscape in general - the ability to permanently destroy a golden core in a setting in which cultivation ability affects one’s political power should be priceless, and everyone should be seeking to replicate it at least in secret. and yet, despite this, no one other than wen ruohan himself really seems to care about the fact that it is possible to melt golden cores; post-timeskip, it just never gets brought up again. this, to me, is another worldbuilding plot hole. and as yet another example, where is the emperor in this world? who leads the non-jianghu portion of society? how did they react to the sunshot campaign between the cultivation sects? typically, both xianxia and wuxia works do also give at least some consideration to the non-jianghu portions of their settings (by sheer logical necessity), and relations with the emperor and various other non-cultivating political bodies will factor into the plot or setting somewhat; that MDZS instead does not mention any emperor at all is rather unusual. and this, to me, is yet another way in which the worldbuilding is lacking - another way that shows that MXTX did not fully consider the ramifications when she created her fictional world. 

that i find the worldbuilding in MDZS to be rather lackluster then means that i cannot fully trust the conclusions MXTX intends me to draw from the events she describes (ie. point TWO above). when i read a work like ASOIAF, i trust GRRM when he tells me “these are the things the characters in this political situation should be concerned about,” because the author clearly HAS put a lot of thought into how the politics between the various factions work and what kind of ramifications different actions would have for the characters. but when MXTX tries to tell me “the characters in this situation should be only concerned about XYZ” or “this character is only concerned about XYZ in this situation,” i cannot have the same trust in her - because her faulty worldbuilding indicates to me that there are ramifications she did not consider, and that if i am to assess the concrete events of the story, then i must discover those ramifications myself, as i have done above. 

therefore, if the conclusion i am meant to draw from jiang cheng’s meeting scene really is that “jiang cheng acted the way he did purely out of anger and hatred of the wens, and was not thinking about political consequences at all,” then i disagree. then i disagree with MXTX. because to me, not just jiang cheng (who has been previously established to be a rather cautious and conservative person), but any politician with two braincells to rub together would have realized that he was in an incredibly dangerous political situation. because the facts of the situation is that his errant high-ranking subordinate has just alienated the largest and most powerful political organization in their field, one much stronger than his own organization and in possession of connections to other stronger political organizations as well - because the facts of the situation is that his subordinate’s actions have just put his own organization onto a collision course with this stronger organization, unless he rectifies this situation immediately. this is something even someone with a middle-school understanding of history and politics can conclude. and if the politics in MDZS do not function the same way as politics do in reality, then MXTX should have directly established that beforehand. 

if we are really meant to conclude that jiang cheng was not thinking about political ramifications for his sect - and being concerned “for one’s sect” means being concerned for the people and disciples who comprise of that sect, because sects are made of people - then either jiang cheng is the stupidest character in the entire story by far, or MDZS itself as a story is much less intelligent than i imagined. 

this is rather harsh, so let’s look at the text of the story again. i do think it is also entirely reasonable to conclude that jiang cheng was in fact also concerned with the political ramifications of wei wuxian’s actions for yunmeng jiang, that he was concerned about what would happen to his sect (ie. the disciples and other people in his sect, because sects are made of people) as a result. 

for one, jiang cheng typically loves arguing and reacting to provocations, and the angrier he gets, the more he runs his mouth. jiang cheng is very angry and upset in that scene; yet, he is also unusually reticent with his words: he only really speaks when someone addresses him specifically, and even then he speaks as though with great reluctance and is unusually sparse with his words. there is also an entire middle section in the scene where jiang cheng doesn’t say anything at all: in the scene where mianmian speaks up and everyone jumps on her, jiang cheng doesn’t have any lines at all. all this indicates to me that jiang cheng himself is uncertain how to navigate this situation. that he didn’t say anything during mianmian’s portion of the scene because he was hanging back to observe how the political winds were blowing, and how someone who directly stood up for wei wuxian would fare in the current political situation. and that, while he was also angry and hateful, he just did not know how to best approach this situation at all. 

for two, regarding what jin guangshan says to jiang cheng at the end of the meeting scene (copy/pasted from your reply): 

Jin GuangShan continued, “Sect Leader Jiang, you’re not like your father. It’s just been a couple of years since the reestablishment of the YunmengJiang Sect, precisely when you should be displaying your power. And he doesn’t even know to avoid suspicions. What would the Jiang Sect’s new disciples think if they saw him? Don’t tell me you’d let them see him as their role model and look down on you?”

to me, this did read as a veiled threat. jin guangshan right now is trying to play the benevolent figure - he wants wen ruohan’s power but does not want the public to perceive him as another wen ruohan - therefore, he is not going to jump out and directly start threatening people. thus, when analyzing jin guangshan’s words, i think it’s important to not just take what he says at face value, but rather to read between the lines and see what he’s implying without saying outright. we must also consider who else is present when jin guangshan speaks: who else is present to hear jin guangshan’s words? who else is present to hear what jin guangshan is implying about jiang cheng here? 

the line “Sect Leader Jiang, you’re not like your father. It’s just been a couple of years since the reestablishment of the YunmengJiang Sect, precisely when you should be displaying your power” serves two functions. first, it reminds jiang cheng of the sect he has worked so hard to rebuild. by bringing up yunmeng jiang specifically, jin guangshan reminds jiang cheng that he has something to lose. second, in saying that “you’re not like your father,” this line also reminds jiang cheng and everyone else present that, while the yunmeng jiang sect might have been strong and secure in the past, this is no longer the case. that it has “just been a couple of years since the reestablishment of the YunmengJiang Sect” implies that yunmeng jiang is nowhere as strong as it used to be - therefore, yunmeng jiang cannot afford to freely act as it used to. this line is a reminder to both jiang cheng himself and everyone else present that, right now, yunmeng jiang is weak. 

the next lines - “And he doesn’t even know to avoid suspicions. What would the Jiang Sect’s new disciples think if they saw him? Don’t tell me you’d let them see him as their role model and look down on you?” - in turn call into question jiang cheng’s authority as leader of yunmeng jiang. through this line, jin guangshan restates what everyone has already been saying during this conversation: namely, that jiang cheng failed to rein in wei wuxian, that jiang cheng does not have the ability to make wei wuxian obey him. since jiang cheng is literally wei wuxian’s leader, this naturally implies that jiang cheng does not have the ability to effectively lead yunmeng jiang. which goes further to establish to the rest of the audience also listening to this that yunmeng jiang is weak. 

the last line, “Don’t tell me you’d let them see him as their role model and look down on you?”, is especially interesting, because to me it is the most threatening. by asking jiang cheng in front of the rest of the jianghu if he’d “let” (and that word choice is key) his other disciples also do as wei wuxian did, jin guangshan is raising the possibility of more wei wuxians in the future. he’s raising the idea that, since jiang cheng is too weak and incompetent to keep his disciples under control, in the near future there will be other disciples who do as wei wuxian did - hence the word choice of “role model”. and since what wei wuxian did was directly attack the holdings of another sect, something that must be fresh in the minds of everyone present, this raises to the rest of the audience the possibility that jiang cheng’s incompetence as leader will lead to more errant jiang disciples imitating wei wuxian and attacking their holdings as well. 

the question of “don’t tell me you’d let them see him as their role model and look down on you?” may seem like it’s only targeting jiang cheng’s pride, but that’s a surface-level reading. it’s not just that future jiang disciples might also disrespect jiang cheng as wei wuxian did; rather, the word choice of “role model” specifically reminds the audience of just how wei wuxian’s disrespect of jiang cheng’s authority manifested: as violence towards another sect. the fact that jin guangshan is saying this in front of an entire audience, and not just to jiang cheng in private, matters quite a bit! thus, when jin guangshan asks jiang cheng: “don’t tell me you’d let them see [wei wuxian] as their role model and look down on you?” and jiang cheng replies that he will rectify the situation, jiang cheng isn’t just saying that he wants his future disciples to obey his authority. jiang cheng is also saying that he will not let a situation like this, in which one of his disciples attacked the holdings of another sect, happen again - which is what he must prove to the other sects in order to avoid the other sects banding against him. 

finally, let’s look at what jiang cheng himself says to wei wuxian two days later, when he flies to the burial mounds to directly confront wei wuxian. 

“I’m the one who wants to fucking beat your ass!” Jiang Cheng snapped back. “Yes, they helped us. But why can’t you understand that the surviving Wens are public targets? It doesn’t matter who they are—they’re reprehensible simply by dint of bearing that family name! And anyone who defends them is risking universal condemnation! Everyone hates the Wen dogs, everyone wants them to die in the worst possible ways. Anyone who defends them is setting themselves against the rest of the world. No one will speak for them, and there won’t be anyone who will speak for you!”  “I don’t need anyone to speak for me,” Wei Wuxian declared. Jiang Cheng was furious. “Why are you so stubborn? If you can’t do it, then move! I’ll do it!”  Wei Wuxian’s hold on him tightened, his fingers like an iron shackle. “Jiang Wanyin!”  “Wei Wuxian!” Jiang Cheng yelled. “Don’t you get it? When you’re on their side, you’re a strange hero, a unique knight-errant, a force to be reckoned with who’s in a league of his own. But the second you voice an opinion that differs from theirs, you’re a maniac, immoral, a deviant who shuns the orthodox path. Do you really think you can just ignore them? Wander out and about in the secular world and live a carefree life? There is no such precedent!”  “If there’s no such precedent, then I’ll be the first!” Wei Wuxian yelled. The two locked eyes. Their weapons had been drawn, and neither was willing to be the first to concede.  After a few moments, Jiang Cheng tried again. “Wei Wuxian, do you still not understand the situation we’re in? Do I have to spell it out for you? If you’re determined to protect them, then I won’t be able to protect you.” 

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 4, Chapter 16: The Unruly

first, i do not think that jiang cheng’s reasoning in this scene has changed significantly from his reasoning during the earlier meeting scene. for one, a mere two days isn’t much time to dramatically alter one’s thinking, especially since it’s highly unlikely jiang cheng spent those two days sitting on his ass contemplating things. for two, jiang cheng is not the sort of person who calms down and becomes more reasonable if you give him time to cool off. instead, he only becomes angrier and angrier as time passes, dwelling on grievances and troubles and letting his feelings of discontent swell - therefore, if jiang cheng was already being primarily driven by emotions of anger and hatred in the earlier meeting scene, then he would be much more angry and hateful in this scene. 

if that were the case, jiang cheng would be yelling something radically different at wei wuxian. if jiang cheng really was just furious that he had to apologize to the whole cultivation world, if he were just angry about wei wuxian publicly disregarding his authority and disrespecting him, then he would be primarily yelling at wei wuxian for embarrassing him when wei wuxian owes the jiang so much. he would certainly bring up the argument that, since the jiang family took wei wuxian off the streets, wei wuxian owes it to the jiang to obey them, rather than be ungrateful and run wild. and if jiang cheng really was just being hateful towards the wen remnants for the massacre of lotus pier, then he would have brought it up in this argument: he would have yelled all sorts of shit about how the wen remnants were still from the family that annihilated his own, how dare wei wuxian protect the blood of the people who massacred those who took him in, etc etc. 

but jiang cheng does not say this. jiang cheng does not say anything about how the wens are the family that massacred the jiang, or that wei wuxian owes the jiang for taking him in, or any of that bullshit. and while jiang cheng does in fact give wei wuxian some shit for putting jiang cheng in this situation, he moves on pretty quickly to the actual brunt of his argument: what i quoted above, wherein jiang cheng says that wei wuxian cannot politically afford to protect the wen remnants and survive. 

to me, these are jiang cheng’s honest thoughts. when jiang cheng says that the wen remnants are hated by the entire cultivation world, and that anyone who stands up for the wen remnants will become a public enemy as well, that is his honest assessment of the current situation. when jiang cheng says that protecting the wen remnants will doom wei wuxian to be crucified by the rest of society, that is what he honestly thinks is going to happen. and when jiang cheng says that if wei wuxian insists on protecting the wen remnants, then jiang cheng cannot - not will not, but cannot - protect wei wuxian, those are his honest feelings. i think that one line - “if you’re determined to protect them, then i won’t be able to protect you” - is the most emotionally honest jiang cheng has been across both of these scenes. 

and, to me, these must have been jiang cheng’s thoughts during the earlier meeting scene as well. it seems highly unlikely that he’d only come up with this line of reasoning during the two days between the meeting and this confrontation at the burial mounds, since the conclusion of “the wen remnants are currently public enemy number 1, and anyone who defends them will become a public enemy as well” is already fairly obvious given the existing postwar political situation. it’s possible that he concluded some of the above after watching everyone turn on mianmian, but i think that’s really only plausible if he was already thinking along these pragmatic lines to begin with. 

therefore, i think that we can also reasonably conclude from the text itself (and not just common sense) that jiang cheng was in fact also concerned about political repercussions when everyone confronted him during that meeting, and not just acting on hateful emotions. for one, as i explained above, multiple hints in the text suggest that the situation was in fact highly threatening, that both jin guangshan and jiang cheng knew this, and that jiang cheng was concerned for pragmatic reasons and not just hater reasons. for two, if MXTX did in fact intend for me to conclude that jiang cheng was acting based purely on his hater emotions, then i myself consider that intended conclusion to be in contradiction with both the political situation at hand and with jiang cheng’s previously established character, which must be intelligent enough to perceive said obvious political situation at hand. 

in the above section, i have explained why i conclude that 1. yunmeng jiang’s postwar position was quite weak, and 2. jiang cheng was in fact also concerned about political repercussions to his sect during the meeting scene, and was not just acting on hater emotions. 

regarding the rest of your points. for one, you’re correct in that it’s not as if more stridently speaking up in the wen siblings’ defense would guarantee the public sees jiang cheng as condoning wei wuxian’s actions. that wasn’t really what i was trying to say, either. instead, what i meant to say was that such is a reasonable concern for anyone in jiang cheng’s delicate political position to have. jiang cheng himself erred on the side of safety and conservative action by staying relatively quiet, and he did so because he did not have the requisite political experience to balance at once properly speaking for the wen siblings and also securely keep his own sect out of the line of fire. 

for two, i don’t think lan xichen can be relied upon to speak in wen qing’s defense, either. this may be straying from what you were trying to say, but in my view, lan xichen brought up wen qing’s relative innocence less because he genuinely thought she was innocent, and moreso just as a potential point of consideration. when nie mingjue challenged him, lan xichen also backed down immediately, more interested in not triggering nie mingjue’s wrath than in properly defending wen qing. this indicates to me that the position of “wen qing was innocent during the sunshot campaign” is not one that lan xichen himself strongly supports, either; instead, it’s just something he sort of considered, and was willing to immediately drop. 

at any rate. all of this is to say that, while you’re free to side-eye jiang cheng as much as you please, i also think that most people in jiang cheng’s position would not do much better than him. that jiang cheng weathered this political shitstorm without dooming yunmeng jiang alongside wei wuxian, whether on purpose for Noble Idiot reasons or simply by accident, is in my view already quite miraculous. 

haterisms beneath the cut

this hater poll brought to you by....a series of Bad Mcfucking Takes i had to read with my own eyeballs. seriously did we read the same book or not.

explanations:

"jiang cheng killed wei wuxian": jiang cheng did not kill wei wuxian in any version of the story. in mdzs wei wuxian died from backlash and in cql wei wuxin chose to let go of lan wangji after jiang cheng stabbed the cliff face. you can argue till the cows come home about how responsible jiang cheng is for wei wuxian's demise, but "jiang cheng killed wei wuxian" is just factually incorrect.

"jiang cheng abuses jin ling": jiang cheng does not abuse jin ling. first, the narration goes out of its way to establish that jiang cheng does not hit jin ling, specifically in a setting where hitting children is normalized and expected. in fact, wei wuxian says that jin ling is bratty specifically because he's never been hit. second, jin ling is also clearly comfortable talking back to jiang cheng and needling him in a way jiang cheng definitely was not with his own parents. even when jiang cheng is actively losing it when he captures wei wuxian in qinghe, jin ling remains completely unruffled - which speaks to how much jin ling takes for granted that he is safe with jiang cheng.

"jiang cheng could have easily helped the wen remnants, he just didn't": antis love to act like yunmeng jiang could have easily taken in the wemnants and jiang cheng simply chose not to because he was a hater/super jelly/various synonyms for ontologically evil. which is not the fucking case. learn to read. yunmeng jiang's own position post sunshot was very weak - they were a great sect in name only and were excluded from the alliance tying the three other great sects together - and jiang cheng could not politically afford to protect wei wuxian after wei wuxian alienated lanling jin. that's why jiang cheng says "if you insist on doing this, i can't protect you," and why wei wuxian then tells jiang cheng to let him go. because they both understand this. come on

"jiang cheng forced jiang yanli to marry jin zixuan": jiang yanli as a character makes so many sacrifices for her family and her brothers. her relationship with zixuan is like the one thing she chooses for herself. she loves him!! the tragedy in wei wuxian killing jin zixuan is that yanli genuinely loved zixuan!! ngl i think antis argue this purely to try to exonerate wei wuxian: if jiang yanli didn't love jin zixuan then wei wuxian donutting him isn't a problem anymore, apparently. this is the result of people thinking of jiang yanli as purely a thing for wei wuxian, rather than a human being in her own right.

"jiang cheng should have protected wei wuxian from yu ziyuan": this one is annoying because jiang cheng was also a child. when a child is abused, it is the fault of the abuser, not the fault of another child who is also subject to the whims of the abuser. come on.

[tearitar]

Fic writing asks- 3, 27, and 30!

3. how you feel about your current WIP

...........which one? ._. haha, i'll give a quick lowdown

Masters of the Air WIPS: I have two that I'm waffling in between. the problem is that I'm also reading fic of them and reading (very good) fic tends to satisfy me into NOT writing my own LOL.

Destiny WIPS: im just plain jane stuck. i have barely a plot for one, and no ending for the other.

SAS:RH: I have all the interesting bits written but none of the transition scenes OR the sex scene. u_u

Top Gun: i have multiple time traveling wips. this is my fault.

27. your favorite part of the writing process

the posting part

30. share a fic you’re especially proud of

modus tollens, a genfic for The Raven Cycle. It's a kind of filler thing where I expand on Noan and Ronin's friendship--which, let me tell you, isn't much to begin with. but I twisted it a bit to make it a "because he's a ghost" plot, which worked well. I dig this one a lot because 1) it's got toxic rovinsky and 2) damn i was vibes af with this. I also think I did pretty well emulating maggie s'.... tone? It's been years since I've touched The Raven Cycle but, man, that series was a ride I care not to repeat or continue, LOL.

[ramshacklefey]

How to Logic Properly

Ok, I meant to write this yesterday, but exhaustion got the better of me. Here goes.

We've all seen a the posts like this one that talk at length about logical fallacies, but I haven't ever seen a post about how to do logic right. There's a lot more to building a good argument than just avoiding fallacies, so I thought I'd make a quick guide to some of the fundamental principles that will help you build a logically sound argument.

Logic is a system for building arguments that will take you from a set of premises that are true to a conclusion that's also true. It's about how you connect pieces of evidence to each other in ways that let you draw accurate conclusions about the world. Basically, logic is math but with words instead of numbers.

Just like math uses certain formulas to get you from, say, the base and height of a triangle to its area, logic uses formulas to get you from one set of true statements to another. In geometry, you need to start with accurate measurements AND apply the formula correctly in order to get the right answer. In logic, it's exactly the same.

Fortunately, there are way fewer formulas that you need to remember in order to do logic! Even more fortunately, they pretty much all rely on the same kinds of statements: if/then statements (called conditionals) and "either/or" statements (called disjuncts).

Here are the three basic ones that will get you pretty much everything you need: (Note: when we're talking about the formulas, we use letters to represent where you would normally put a whole statement in)

Modus Ponens: The absolute most basic thing you can do in logic. You start with a conditional statement (If A, then B). Then you say that statement A is true, and you conclude that statement B is true as well. The formula for it is: If A, then B. A Therefore, B.

Modus Tollens: Very similar to modus ponens. You start with a conditional statement (If A, then B). Then you say that statement B is false, and you conclude that statement A is also false. The formula for this is: If A, then B. B is false. Therefore, A is false.

Disjunctive Syllogism: For this one, you start with a disjunct (either A or B). Then you say that one of these is false, and you conclude that the other must be true. The formula for this is: Either A or B. A is false. Therefore, B is true.

Let's take a look at some examples using actual statements.

Modus Ponens: If you stick a fork in an outlet, then you will get electrocuted. You stuck a fork in an outlet. Therefore, you will get electrocuted.

Modus Tollens: If you stick a fork in an outlet, then you will get electrocuted. You will NOT be electrocuted. Therefore, you did NOT stick a fork in an outlet.

Disjunctive Syllogism: Either you wear a space suit when you leave the station or you die. You did NOT wear a space suit. when you left the station. Therefore, you die. You can do this the other way round too: Either you wear a space suit when you leave the station or you die. You did NOT die. Therefore, you wore a space suit when you left the station.

That's it. It's really that simple.

However, it's possible to fuck this up if you don't apply the formulas correctly. There are three BIG mistakes that people often make with these.

Thinking that when the "if" half of a conditional is false, the "then" half is also false. If you stick a fork in an outlet, then you will get electrocuted. You did NOT stick a fork in an outlet. Therefore, you did NOT get electrocuted. If you think about it for a minute, it's easy to see why this doesn't work: There are lots of ways to get electrocuted other than sticking a fork in an outlet.

Thinking that when the "then" half of a conditional is true, the "if" half is also true. If you stick a fork in an outlet, then you will get electrocuted. You got electrocuted. Therefore, you stuck a fork in an outlet. Again, this doesn't work because there are lots of other ways to get electrocuted.

Thinking that when one half of a disjunct is true, the other must be false. Either you wear a spacesuit when you leave the station, or you die. You wore a spacesuit when you left the station. Therefore, you did not die. But you could have died from lots of other things, like getting shot by aliens.

Now, the thing that makes this tricky is that people are rarely polite enough to lay out their arguments in this form. They put their premises and conclusions in different orders, or they don't actually come out and say all the premises. Being able to read an argument or to think through your own argument and come out with these clear formulas is its whole own skill. But that's a topic for another post.

[reasoncourt]

Idk, I feel like it depends on what level that teacher teaches? If they're talking about teaching 16 year olds, that's one thing. The teacher should ABSOLUTELY go back and reteach those concepts if they can make room in the curriculum. But if you're going to university and can't construct an argument, that's not for your professor to be teaching you. There's nothing wrong with having to take a remedial class or two, but the burdens of the failing education system shouldn't fall on the professors. That just weakens the already rapidly weakening meaning of a college degree.

constructing an argument at a high school level is very different from constructing an argument at college level. It is a skill that needs to be taught in college as well. you’re not taught about logical validity versus soundness, modus ponens and modus tollens, reductio ad absurdum rebuttals, etc etc etc. in high school. idk anyone who had college level analysis skills in high school. And part of the college curriculum is how to write an essay, how to critically engage with the material at a college level, etc. That’s built in. You don’t have to make space for it. That is what you’re meant to be teaching among other things. i think to suggest otherwise is kind of undervaluing good critical analysis tbh. Critical analysis is something that gets taught at every level and imo a good college degree develops those from high school onwards. It’s a skill to be worked on. Not something that you just possess and certainly not something you’re successful at in high school. And you don’t necessarily need a college degree to develop in that area but it is something a college course is meant to teach. I just think it’s completely bad faith to suggest a lot of students are unwilling to learn and i see that suggestion a lot from professors on twitter (/ twitter is showing it to me cause it makes me angry lol). The tweet I posted just specifically annoyed me because it seemed like they were talking about philosophy and if the majority of your students aren’t getting the soundness/validity distinction then you didn’t explain it properly

[catholiccom-blog]

Prayer, Science, and the Existence of God

Can science find God? If God is defined as a being (or perhaps “the ground of being”) that is neither composed of matter nor confined to a spatial location, then the answer seems to be no. After all, science is limited to explaining the natural, physical world. If God exists beyond that world and is not composed of anything found within it, then he seems to be out of the reach of scientific inquiry.

But even if science can’t “find” God in the same way I can find my car in a parking lot, maybe it can indirectly find him. After all, if God affects the physical world, then couldn’t scientific experiments detect those effects and then infer from them that God exists?

One common interaction between God and the universe that believers and nonbelievers think can be tested is prayer—specifically, intercessory prayer for other people. This testing usually takes the form of “prayer studies” that test whether praying for the sick results in more positive health outcomes.

However, I contend that scientific study of the efficacy of prayer can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. The reason is summarized in the following three “problems” inherent to any such study.

The Problem of the Control Group

In any experiment, the control group must be observed without the variable that’s being tested for. In this case, that would involve a group of people who are not receiving intercessory healing prayers. Now, it’s easy to create two groups of sick people and then tell a group of volunteers to pray for one of the groups. Meanwhile, researchers observe the other group, of which the volunteers are ignorant, to see how it fares when not prayed for.

But the other group still wouldn’t be a true control group, because there is no way to isolate it from receiving any form of intercessory prayer. What if the friends and family of the people in this group are praying for them? What if a holy woman in rural Nepal prays that “everyone be healed” or that those “who have no one to pray for them” be healed?

Why should we expect God to answer only the prayers of the volunteers in a prayer study and not prayers made by anyone else? This brings us to problem number two with prayer studies.

The Problem of the Test Subject

Testing the effects of intercessory prayer isn’t the same as testing an inanimate force like gravity, because God isn’t a force that is automatically activated when enough prayers are uttered. God is much more like a person than he is a force, and so he might choose to honor or not honor certain requests made through prayer. In fact, it’s been said that God always answers our prayers—it’s just that sometimes the answer is “no.”

Now, science is used to testing the reactions of people and not just forces (psychologists and sociologists do this all the time). But those experiments must be blind or even double blind. The person being tested can’t know that scientists are testing him. But if God is omniscient, then he always knows when he’s being tested. Any experiment involving him can’t be blind and so it probably can’t be scientific.

Here’s an example to explain how omniscience messes up any kind of prayer study.

Suppose we wanted to determine how much time the President spends reviewing different kinds of petitions made to whitehouse.gov (I know the President probably doesn’t read these himself, but let’s imagine he did). Our experiment wouldn’t work if we told the President that we were monitoring his review of the petitions. He might purposefully spend an equal amount of time reviewing each petition in order to deflect the accusation that he cares about some causes but not others. Or he might not dignify our study with his participation, because he can care about all Americans even if he doesn’t grant all of our petitions.

Likewise, if God knows that certain prayers are part of a study, he may choose to not participate in such a study by not answering the prayers of the study’s volunteers. He might do this because he does not want to encourage humans to test him. Or he may have other good reasons for not healing certain ailments. I don’t want to digress into issues related to the problem of evil, including the question of whether God has a moral duty to heal people of certain diseases. I would say he does not, but once again, that’s not the subject of this post.

My main point is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to validly study someone if he is aware you are studying him. This gives us another reason to doubt the validity of prayer studies.

Finally, let’s examine the last problem with these kinds of studies.

The Problem of Interpreting Results

Any study on intercessory prayer will yield one of three results: prayer has a negative effect on patients, prayer has no effect, or prayer has a positive effect. Regardless of what outcome we observe, it does not justify us to conclude anything about God’s existence.

For example, suppose a prayer study showed that intercessory prayer results in worse health outcomes for the recipients of prayer. What should we conclude? I’m not talking about people who were told they’d be prayed for and then got worse (that’s probably due to psychosomatic issues caused by the patient thinking, “They need to pray for me? I must be really sick!”).

I’m talking instead about isolated patients whose condition worsens when people pray for them.

Is God purposefully not healing these people (or even making them worse) in order to bring about a greater good? Is the devil trying to ruin our faith in God? Is it that God does not exist but in his place is an all-powerful, evil creator (a.k.a. Stephen Law’s “evil-god”)? Do the mechanical prayers involved in a prayer experiment react negatively to the universe’s “karma field,” while more honest prayers outside of a study would do better?

Science simply can’t determine which of these explanations is the correct one, since science is restricted to observing the natural world.

Even if a prayer study found a positive correlation between intercessory prayer and healing, it wouldn’t show that God exists. I’ll admit, such an outcome would bolster my faith at first, but this outcome would be plagued by problems similar to those that accompanied a study that showed prayer caused negative effects.

Is God the cause of this statistically anomalous healing? Is it a psychic mutant? Aliens? Is it an “evil-creator” who is healing patients in order to bring about a “greater evil?” Is it an impersonal “karma field?”

In these cases, science can show us that intercessory prayer causes a certain kind of physical effect, but any speculations about the relationship between the cause (i.e., prayer) and the effect (i.e., healing) would belong to the realm of philosophy or religion, not science.

No Difference?

What if studies showed that intercessory prayer made no difference in patient health? This seems to be the result of a large, recent study of prayer called the STEP project. Atheists might say that this proves that “nothing fails like prayer,” because if God did not exist we would expect intercessory prayer to not have any measurable effects.

But this is the fallacy of affirming the consequent, or:

1. If A, then B.

2. B. Therefore, A

Why is this a fallacy? See this example:

1. If I’m in New York City, then I am in New York State.

2. I am in New York State. Therefore, I am in New York City.

Of course, I could be in Albany or Buffalo and still be in New York State without being in New York City. In this argument, the consequent proposition cannot be used to support the truth of the antecedent proposition. It could be used to deny the truth of the antecedent proposition (which is also called modus tollens) by saying, “I am not in New York State, therefore I am not in New York City,” but it can’t be used to prove the truth of the antecedent. When we plug in the atheist argument from prayer, we get the same problem:

1. If God does not exist, then prayers made in scientific studies will not be answered.

2. Prayers made in scientific studies are not answered, therefore God does not exist.

God can still exist even if certain requests made in prayer are not answered. After all, God may have good reasons for not granting those requests, and he may be answering other prayers that are not being catalogued by scientists. Since God is a person and not a force that acts in automatic and statistically predictable ways, extremely limited studies using some intercessory prayers cannot be generalized to give us conclusions about the efficacy of prayer in general.