#look beyond the jedi for your vitriol because the options for where to aim it are honestly endless

[antianakin]

Well, for one, this post asked for bad Anakin Skywalker takes, not bad Jedi takes. This entire thread started because I had to see a bad Jedi take, so thanks for this, this is totally helping my fandom experience right now.

This is an EXHAUSTING conversation to have to keep having over and over again. I've definitely addressed it before, as have a few other people within the anti-Jedi community on Tumblr, but fine. Let's go through it again.

Generally when this topic comes up, there's a few follow-up questions it's helpful to try to answer.

If the Jedi refused to lead the clones from a moral standpoint, what is the alternative for the clones now, and is it better or worse for them in the long run?

Were the clones INTENDED to be seen as slaves or (also) closer to a draft and the writing of their situation is just done very messily and in a way that's very uncomfortable due to how close it seems to slavery? Follow-up to that, if it's uncomfortably close to slavery, perhaps this is where we discuss how close a draft is to slavery which brings up some interesting discussions about the Jedi having also been drafted and how much power the Jedi truly have in this situation.

Let's start with the first one because it's honestly just easier.

So the scenario is that the Jedi choose to refuse to fight in the war at all (because presumably fighting WITH the slave army is equally as bad as LEADING the slave army so long as we do not see the Jedi as slaves themselves because it still means they're supporting the use of the slave army). What becomes of the clones? Well, they still have to fight the war. The Jedi refusing to fight won't save the clones from that. But who will lead them now?

If your answer is "a bunch of fascist pricks who are probably in Palpatine's pocket," you'd be right! It'll just be a lot more people like Tarkin or Yularen.

How does this change the clones' experience? It means there's no longer a superior officer with heightened reflexes and instincts on the ground with them anymore, standing in front of them and blocking fire so that more men can survive. It means there's no longer a superior officer whose primary priority is going to be to preserve as much life as possible and will choose to surrender a fight to save more clones rather than push forward to victory regardless of the cost. It means there's no longer a superior officer whose teachings and morals allow them to inspire and encourage individuality amongst the clones, so it's entirely possible that all of those beautiful armor designs and different hair styles wouldn't even happen if the Jedi weren't leading them.

So I'm going to say that it's entirely canon that the Jedi leading the clones makes life better for them overall. If the Jedi refused their draft entirely the way you argue they should've on moral grounds, it leaves the clones in a way worse place overall. We can probably assume the Jedi are least SOMEWHAT aware of this, which means they're left with the choice of choosing to go along with the draft to do what they can for the clones even if it goes against their own morals, or they dodge the draft to try to adhere to their morals and ultimately leave the clones to fend for themselves against people less capable of protecting them and less willing to care for them. Which, once you look at it that way, sounds pretty selfish doesn't it? It's kind-of a lose/lose situation for the Jedi where they're damned if they do (support the slave army) and damned if they don't (abandoning people they could help for the sake of their own well-being).

The argument from the anti-Jedi crowd on this always seems to be just "well they shouldn't have done it" and never seems to actually address what the Jedi should've done INSTEAD. And I imagine that this is because the options there are pretty slim on the ground. "Dodge the draft!" Cool, how does this help the slaves you're so worried about? What does this allow the Jedi to actually DO to help the clones instead? Is this actually making life BETTER for the clones overall or is it actually making life WORSE? "The Jedi took down the Zyggerian slave empire in canon!" Yes, with the support of the Republic we must assume. Something they will NOT have in this case if they try to free the clones. So now we're just heading into "the Jedi should've destroyed the Republic themselves because it was basically a lost cause" and oh whoops now we're just saying Dooku was right and look at where that led.

I recognize that you say above you don't really give a damn about how kind the Jedi were to the clones and that it doesn't matter to you at all, so this was all probably a huge waste of time on my part, but it DOES matter to me on this topic and, I'd argue, it seems to matter in canon to the clones.

So that's the Watsonian analysis I have. In universe, the Jedi are faced with a nearly impossible lose/lose situation and they choose what is arguably the lesser of two evils by putting themselves in the position to actually do some good for the clones and save as many as they can.

Now let's hit that second point and dive a little deeper into a more Doylist analysis. Does the writing support the interpretation of the clones as slaves or is it just really badly written in the most uncomfortable way possible?

Now, this is where I will readily admit that the writing sucks, it's definitely racist, and I don't support the way they've chosen to depict the clones and their situation. But this is also where I will point out that there is a major difference between "the writing of the clones isn't done well and it has some perhaps unintended implications about the Jedi that the writers never meant to come across that way" and "the Jedi are intended to be viewed as slave owners and I am going to critique them based on that." Because I don't personally believe the second one and land way more in the realm of the first.

To begin with, I don't think that Lucas intended to write the clones as fully sentient beings. The dialogue we hear in Attack of the Clones about it when the Kaminoans are talking to Obi-Wan about them seems to imply more that the clones are sort-of sub-sentient, somewhere between a droid's programming and full sentience. What the fuck that means is anyone's guess, we're definitely in space magic bullshit territory here. But the implication IS THERE that the clones are perhaps not actually entirely sentient. So the reason that Cody seems perfectly friendly with Obi-Wan one moment and then immediately happy to shoot him down the next moment isn't because he's been mind controlled, but because he's just... not entirely sentient and he's just going to do as ordered, whether that means being loyal to the Jedi or killing them all. It's left a little unclear within the films, but that's the implication I got based on that dialogue from Attack of the Clones.

Which means that when TCW decided to make them fully sentient and sort-of change the narrative there, it's faced with a few difficulties. It's one thing to have an army of droids, or human-like men who are perhaps not fully sentient anyway. Can they truly be slaves if they aren't really sentient? Star Wars obviously faces this same question about the droids themselves, and the general consensus is that absolutely nobody intended the droids to come off like slaves because this would make Luke and Leia slave owners and that seems like a really obviously wrong interpretation doesn't it? Star Wars is by no means advocating for slavery by making two of its primary heroes droid owners. Subsequently, we can make the same argument here. Star Wars is not advocating for slavery by making the obvious good guys slave owners via leading the clones. That is not and never has been the message of the prequels, part of which is helped by making the clones less than human.

This is where the godawful racist writing bit comes in, obviously, and like I said earlier, I'm not denying any of that. It's absolutely fuck off racist to have written the clones this way, especially given who they chose to cast in the role. But if we choose to believe that Lucas was NOT intending the Jedi to be seen as slave owners in the prequels just because they led the clones in war, then it follows that the clones are NOT intended to be seen as slaves.

And this continues in The Clone Wars, despite the fact that the clones are now fully sentient. Granted, this is ALSO a really uncomfortable writing choice because while we could sort-of write off the fact that the clones weren't fully sentient and so the morals behind using them as an army is kind-of gray and nebulous, once the clones BECOME fully sentient, you lose that argument. You definitely do. And once again, I'm not denying that this was an absolutely terrible writing choice to have made given that they don't address it enough within the show to really dig into the morals behind it. Because all of the other characters still sort-of act like the clones are somewhere between droid and sentient in terms of them being in an army.

I will point out here that the ONLY characters who we see regularly advocate for the clones are the Jedi. So from a more Doylist standpoint, even if we are intended to see the clones as slaves (which I'm not convinced of), the Jedi are the only ones who we see doing a damn thing about that at all and arguing back about the clones' rights. Shaak Ti has an entire line where she tells Lama Su that the clones are people, not objects and fights for the Domino Squad to not just be "cast off." She practically bends over backwards to help Tup and Fives as much as she can.

And yes, the Jedi accept the explanation they're given about the "aggression inhibitor" chips, but we also see the Jedi actively looking into the creation of the clones and they discover that the clones are a literal Sith trap for them (even if they don't know how). When they don't have any further information to go on, they end up deciding that the clones are sentient people who have earned their trust. You could condemn that choice, obviously, call them idiots for not looking further or not assuming mind control I guess. But the Jedi ARE looking into things canonically, and when offered the choice between abandoning the clones for their own self preservation and trusting the clones enough to keep working with them, they choose to trust the clones. I'd argue the bigger issue here is not "The Jedi chose to ignore the chips that are a human rights issue regardless of whether they're mind control chips or not" but that the Jedi are now canonically given WAY too much information, making it seem a little silly that they don't connect things together that seem fairly obvious. Narratively, they obviously are incapable of connecting things completely since they need to be caught by surprise and all killed in Order 66. But once they know a chip EXISTS that had at least SOMETHING to do with a clone murdering a Jedi and then find out the clones are a Sith trap, it stops being quite as understandable that they didn't put those pieces together and look further into the chip issue.

Regardless, the reason they accept the "aggression inhibitor" explanation and don't look further is because the narrative prevents them from doing so. They CAN'T look further into the issue because they'd inevitably figure everything out and then the story doesn't happen. They're literally just prevented by the writing from doing the thing you want them to do. That's not the writers intending to make the Jedi out to be cruel and uncaring, it's just the writers of this show being kind-of stupid about how much information they're giving the Jedi and how unrealistic it is that they DON'T look into it more.

All of that tells me that even if we as the audience are expected to interpret the clones as slaves, we're NOT expected to interpret the Jedi as slave owners who should be condemned for their treatment of the clones.

Which brings us to Slick. Yes, Slick explicitly calls them slaves and condemns the Jedi for it. But do you recall what ELSE Slick does in that episode? He teams up with Asajj Ventress (someone who you could argue DOES enslave people quite a lot by virtue of being a Sith working for the Separatists) to help MURDER a bunch of his own brothers for money. So by no means does the narrative present Slick as a reliable source of information. He's a traitor who is basically in this for himself and that's it. He tries to excuse his actions with some grandiose cause, but Rex and Cody themselves see right through it. Neither of them seems to agree with Slick and they're both far more reliable and trustworthy characters. If we were meant to know that Slick was right, we'd have heard Rex and Cody say something similar to back it up, and we don't.

The best parallel to make here is to Anakin's comments about the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith. Anakin says he should've known the Jedi were plotting to take over and that from his perspective the Jedi were evil. We have literally watched the Jedi trying to arrest Palpatine because HE'S plotting to take over, so we know Anakin's LYING. Anakin says he's brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to his new Empire, but we've seen what the Empire does, we saw how Anakin just murderred children, so we know that Anakin's LYING. Anakin is making excuses for his own atrocities to justify them to both himself and Obi-Wan (and Padme).

Slick's comments about the Jedi enslaving the clones aren't intended to be taken as true. He's just betrayed EVERYBODY and caused the deaths of hundreds of clones because Ventress (a Sith who works with the Separatists who we know are ACTUAL enslavers of innocent Republic civlians) promised him money in return. He's making up excuses for his actions to justify them both to himself and to the people around him (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Rex, and Cody). And you'll notice that nobody in that scene is buying what he's selling. This is why this comment really never has any follow-through, they never discuss the clones as slaves in any other episode really, even when it would make sense to do so (like Umbara or Zyggeria). You as the audience are supposed to just automatically recognize that Slick is LYING, so there's no real follow-up needed to this acccusation.

The problem here is predominantly that the change to the clones' level of sentience leads to them feeling a LOT more like literal slaves, so Slick's accusation doesn't seem as obviously inaccurate as Anakin's accusations do. In fact, it starts to ring as entirely true because, well, I don't know what ELSE you'd call sentient human beings who are considered products (something we know the Kaminoans call them, even though the Jedi themselves disagree). And this is an issue I am placing squarely at the feet of the writers for not recognizing. There is no way a more adult audience isn't going to hear Slick call the clones slaves and think that that's a lie when everything we're seeing says it's true. That's an issue, and I'll never deny that it isn't. But I still don't think that it's what was INTENDED to be understood by this scene.

The final piece of evidence I'll use to back that argument up is Cut Lawquane. The episode he shows up in is called "The Deserter." Not "The Escapee" or "The Runaway" or "The Freedman" or anything that might bring to mind slavery, but "Deserter" which is a lot more indicative of a DRAFT. Cut himself does condemn the Republic and some of the ways the clones were treated in general, but as I recall, Cut has exactly nothing negative to say about the Jedi specifically nor does he ever really refer to the clones as slaves. All of which tells me that the clones were being used as a metaphor for a DRAFT, but the writing was done so clumsily that what they ended up writing instead was a slave army. And that now comes with a ton of really unfortunate implications that are never addressed because the writers didn't recognize it enough to address it.

The point of the narrative is not to condemn the Jedi, it never has been. The Jedi are placed in an impossible situation with nothing but lose/lose options of evil and lesser evil. Who are we to condemn them for doing the best they can to keep choosing a lesser evil? Condemning them for being forced to make an impossible choice IS propaganda because that's literally what Palpatine intends to do by putting them in that situation to begin with. If the Jedi had refused to fight, refused to lead the clones, I imagine people who hate the Jedi both in universe and in fandom would be calling them cowards who abandoned their responsibility to the galaxy, selfish elitists who prioritized their own morals over people's lives. They can't win. And that's the whole fucking point. That's the tragedy of the prequels. The Jedi can't win, it doesn't MATTER what they choose to do or not do, they'll always lose. And if you missed that, you might have missed the entire point of the narrative.

I'm in the mood for bad faith Anakin Skywalker takes today, so if you have any of those to share, please do!

[mademoiselle-cookie]

#why is it always that when the topic of 'are the clones slaves' comes up that the only ones condemned are the jedi?#where is the condemnation for the senate that ACTUALLY chose to use them as their army?#where is the condemnation for the senate that forced that choice upon the jedi?#where is the condemnation for the senators who never ONCE stand up for the clones?#somehow it all comes down on the jedi alone#as if the jedi could have spared the clones from having to fight and freed them all by just saying no#add a little nuance back into this worldbuilding why don't you#look beyond the jedi for your vitriol because the options for where to aim it are honestly endless163 notes

I'm in the mood for bad faith Anakin Skywalker takes today, so if you have any of those to share, please do!

[vetinarivimesy]

excellent tags @antianakin #pro jedi#slavery#clones#jedi#why is it always that when the topic of 'are the clones slaves' comes up that the only ones condemned are the jedi?#where is the condemnation for the senate that ACTUALLY chose to use them as their army?#where is the condemnation for the senate that forced that choice upon the jedi?#where is the condemnation for the senators who never ONCE stand up for the clones?#somehow it all comes down on the jedi alone#as if the jedi could have spared the clones from having to fight and freed them all by just saying no#add a little nuance back into this worldbuilding why don't you#look beyond the jedi for your vitriol because the options for where to aim it are honestly endless

I'm in the mood for bad faith Anakin Skywalker takes today, so if you have any of those to share, please do!