#logan sanders analysis

[part-time-zombie]

The best part of seeing the other sides in virgils room and impacted by its effects is realizing what happens when they each get anxious, and what their anxieties are about.

Roman is worried that he said something wrong, or that he didn't do a good job. He's scared he's messing things up.

Patton is afraid of losing the people he cares about.

Logan... poor logan is just worried that he'll end up boring people with what he has to say. He's so insecure about others criticizing his work that the idea of people getting frustrated with him talking is his most prevalent source of anxiety.

And this is what happened immediately after he said that...

[unhinged-jaw]

I rewatched SVSredux and it has been plaguing my thoughts so. Rambles.

Watching Logan vs Deceit Pretending To Be Logan is So fascinating. This is no drag against Logan, but he allows himself to be talked over. Most of his 'Logan Lowdowns' are him making the soft pixel talking sounds. True to his earlier statement he acts detached to the debate, merely adding information (that is largely ignored). He only audibly gets involved when Patton asks for his input, clearly assuming Logan was going to help make his point clearer. Especially since Patton spends the whole episode struggling to convey his point! But that's another topic for another day.

Conversely, Janus As Logan (who I will be referring to as Dlogan for rn) is Very confrontational. First of all, the entire time Dlogan is on screen he is *speaking*. He sort of manhandles the conversation into his hands. Its very important to me though that how Dlogan does it is *different* than how Logan has taken control of the conversation in the past. Dlogan proceeds to *shred* into Patton's logic. Like, genuinely, he is tearing that poor man apart. He points out when Patton is lying and fumbling. He points out the inconsistencies. *He* is the reason Patton ends up freaking the hell out! Patton and his extreme opinion on the whole thing is put directly into the light and it shows every single inconsistency.

The difference between Logan and Dlogan is *genuinely* fascinating. Dlogan is very persistent that he will not be ignored. He shoves himself to the forefront and is very aggressive. But! If you weren't paying attention you really wouldn't notice! You would just think (in Remus words) that he "reached his listening to others limit". But he didn't! Janus has the wheel here!

ALSO there is a moment where Roman goes "I thought you didn't care about this stuff Logan" (Paraphrased) and Dlogan sort of brushes that off. But it is noticed by the other sides that Logan suddenly seems to care more about the debate. Fun call back!

Bonus also, Logan goes from "giving relevant information" to Dlogan pushing the topic of Self Preservation and whether or not Thomas *should* go to those extremes to be morally good.

Genuinely fascinating and fun all around.

[milk3ad]

rewatching older s1 sasi, the sides are ALL mean to each other. even patton for a bit. like ppl like to shit in logan, or roman, or virgil for being mean, but the truth is no one was actually nice to each other. virgil definitely got it the worst, but he was also mean as hell too. i think the change happened after accepting anxiety where everyone made a bigger effort to be nicer (patton’s change came a bit before). maybe that says something abt how c!thomas views himself more negatively or how the sides learned how their words affect each other. i’m not certain. but i hate seeing ppl claiming one of the sides is mean, like they all were…

[yourfanderfriend]

!! SPOILER WARNING!! ⚠️

What if there was something more to Logan’s statement?

In the newest episode, “What Makes a Perfect Gift?”, when Logan hints to Virgil that he is disappointed with his newspaper, he makes a point to say:

“… there was obviously something about my personality that made you think a newspaper would be a proper gift for me, and whatever that is, I will have to reflect on that. This whole activity was to serve a higher purpose anyway.”

Thomas then assures Logan: “You’re doing good, Logan.”

They never discuss what exactly “the purpose” was. I also believe the wording of Logan’s statement was odd. This could just be a nod to his past history of disconnection with the group, but I believe it could be more.

I propose:

Could he be talking about the Orange Side?

I believe that “the aspect of his personality” Logan needs to reflect on could be a reference to Orange.

We already know that Orange and Logan are connected in some way, hence, the glowing orange eyes. They never discuss “the purpose” or “the aspect his personality” after it’s brought up.

Something about how Thomas said, “You’re doing good Logan,” tells me that Thomas, in some capacity, can see how much of a hard time Logan had. Janus and Remus obviously know about Orange, but what about the others?

Could it be that Logan is trying to keep Orange at bay?

Logan was the Side who ultimately decided to initiate the Gift Exchange. This is odd.

They even call this out when Roman says: “Logan, you’ve never run one of these things.”

Patton agrees with that statement saying: “Hey, yeah! It’s usually me or Roman. Wha-?”

Logan replies: “Well, things are a little different this year.”

Logan is trying new things and intentionally going out of his way to make sure Orange is not shown to the rest of the group.

He is making an effort to reconnect and get away from the one-dimensional “smart guy” stereotype because he can see how that can feed into Orange.

I would like to hear other people’s takes on this line. There are many ways you could interpret it, but it seems so cryptic that I might as well apply it to a theory of mine. Enjoy my over exaggeration of a small line. 💪💪💪

[tentacle-therapissed]

Thinking a lot about the significance of Patton representing both c!Thomas’s feelings and his morality. Because it’s been made very clear that c!Thomas’s way of dividing the facets of himself cannot be universally applied to everyone, and the thing is that one’s morality being based on their emotions is very much not the case for everyone. There’s a reason ethos and pathos are two separate appeals in the rhetorical triangle, yet in Sanders Sides the pathos guy also represent c!Thomas’s ethics.

Think about it; every Side has their own unique moral code based on what they represent. The fact that they all have different viewpoints on what they believe is the best thing to do is the reason they have arguments like SvS in the first place. But despite this, Patton is the only side who actually represents Thomas’s morality. Roman and Logan both personally believe it is best for Thomas to go to the callback but encourage him to go to the wedding anyway because that’s what Patton believes is the right thing to do, and therefore that’s also what c!Thomas believes is the right thing to do. One’s ethics could just as feasibly be based in logical reasoning (what is the best course of action based on facts, statistics, and probability?) or self-preservation (what is the best course of action to fulfill my needs and desires?) or even idealism. But Thomas’s are based on his feelings. See a cute dog? Adopt it, the poor thing needs a home. Friends need help with something? Oh, you love your friends, they’re so wonderful! They deserve everything you could possibly offer them. Homelessness is sad, volunteer at your local soup kitchen. Violence is disturbing, shut it down!! It doesn’t matter if what you’re doing isn’t logically sound, or if it’s creatively unfulfilling, or if it serves to your own personal detriment; You should do what feels right. And considering natural law is the basis of Catholic moral theology, it makes perfect sense for him to associate his morals with an intrinsic part of him like his emotions rather than a conscious thought process. Plenty of us do not subscribe to natural law theory, however, and if I were making my own Sides I very much would not have my morality Side and emotions Side be one and the same.

But it’s not just Patton, is it? Roman represents Thomas’s hopes, dreams, and passions because most of Thomas's passions, career, and hobbies are creatively focused. But every Side also has their own motivations. Their own passions. Their own reasoning skills. Their own fears. Their own anger. Yet not all of them represent Thomas’s passions. Thomas’s reasoning. Thomas’s fears. Thomas’s anger. What would happen if Thomas’s passions were more aligned with Logan’s role? If his ethics were more aligned with Janus’s role?  If his punctuality was more aligned with Virgil’s role?

And what would it look like if c!Thomas’s anger was somehow most aligned with Logan’s role?

[orbmanson7]

Let's do a quick analysis of this new short video "The Sides Need a Nice Day" which is clearly meant to be mostly for fun, but there's definitely some hints and easter eggs to pay attention to that I'd like to explore a little further.

I'll address this in three parts in separate posts, the first for Patton and Logan, the next for Virgil and Roman, and the last for Janus and Remus.

Let's start with the first part, about Patton and Logan.

Patton's initial approach, as we can see, was flawed despite his good intentions. He wants to do something nice for Logan, he thinks out ideas based on what he knows Logan enjoys, and he likes to see Logan actually having fun. These are all very emotion-based notions and motivations, which we can expect from Patton. He's inspired by his own emotions in response to seeing the videos online, and takes matters into his own hands to give Logan in particular a special day.

Why Logan? Because Patton's very in tune with emotions and can recognize that Logan has been having a tough time lately. He empathizes with this a lot (considering it's kind of his thing) so he wants to do something that he'd like someone to do for him if he was having a bad day - do something to cheer him up!

This is very sweet and he clearly puts a lot of thought into this idea...but it's not an immediate success because he only really puts the emotional concept and vision into it, and didn't think practically or make his decisions with logic in mind.

Wonder who could have helped with something like that...

First, he approached Logan about making a quick decision, which is not something Logan is ever known to do. Logan resists this right away by questioning him for clarification and is already annoyed to start because Patton is being vague and trying to get Logan to play along without giving consideration to Logan's need to understand a situation and weigh his options before deciding anything. Logan takes no action lightly and always thinks his actions through first, as opposed to Patton, who prefers gut instincts and impulsive action. He doesn't bother to offer Logan the information and time to make a more informed decision, all because he wants to hurry up and get to the fun part!

Patton (like Roman) is someone who is able to envision what he wants, but Logan is someone who actually figures out the steps needed to make that a reality. Without the steps, that vision is but a dream, and without the vision, the steps are just work with no purpose.

These sides need to learn to work together to accomplish goals, not just do things on their own, and this part of the episode gives us a hint towards that notion.

The peculiar way that Patton then explains the situation to Logan is also interesting, as he states that whichever option Logan chooses will be something Patton wants to do, and because Patton wants to do it, Thomas will want to do it, meaning Logan gets to do it, too.

This, by itself, is such an alarming concept to drop into this video, especially with Patton saying it so cheerfully.

In case it's not clear, Patton is implying that he has so much power and sway over Thomas' decision-making process that he can have Thomas do something just because he, Patton, wants to do it. None of the sides should have that level of influence over Thomas, but Patton not only has that power but also knows that he does.

(And to clear up any confusion, this is not the same as Janus saying during his part of the video that he's convinced Thomas to lean into certain thoughts for the day. Patton is suggesting that if he wants something, Thomas will do it, as if it's automatic and doesn't require convincing. That may be Patton oversimplifying it a bit, but it's still indicating his status above others in that sense.)

In this case, he's using it to give Logan a nice day by doing (read: permitting Thomas to do) things he knows Logan would enjoy...but in other context, that's a very dangerous situation, especially since Patton has been shown to make bad or skewed judgement calls in the past due to his biases as well as making some very impulsive, emotionally-driven decisions.

But he recognizes this status that he holds and is attempting to use it for good, so at least there's that?

The next and more obvious part of this section shows that Patton is rushing Logan through the activities chosen, talking over him or cutting him off when Logan questions Patton about this, and Logan grows more annoyed by this as time goes on.

He is not quick to anger, even when he was initially forced into deciding something with very little information, and it takes a few times of being pushed and talked over before he even shows his frustration at all.

It's important to notice this because Logan's anger is not just born of nothing. It's valid because it's a natural reaction to the situation he's in not being properly catered to him.

This is something we see in episodes of the series a lot, and when it comes to the specific moments where Logan has truly gotten angry enough to show it, it's never out of nowhere, even if it may seem that way. If you are properly paying attention, you will see the gradual buildup, where Logan keeps holding himself back, staying calm and collected as long as he can, before the emotion bursts out and he acts rashly (and then regrets it).

Logan's anger has been shown to appear after moments where he is repeatedly cut off, spoken over, and ignored or disregarded completely. Being silenced and skipped over so often, it's a wonder Logan keeps trying at all, but he does. At some point, the last line is crossed, and he explodes with that anger.

While the resulting behavior may be inappropriate or rude, the feelings motivating that behavior are extremely valid, because he's being pushed to this breaking point by others. Anger serves the purpose of making it known when someone's boundaries have been crossed and when they have been wronged, so it makes sense for Logan to experience it at these times.

So, in this short video, Patton is trying to do something nice for him, and Logan can recognize and appreciate Patton's intention, but the execution is filled with the same mannerisms that build Logan's anger - being cut off, spoken over, ignored. It's not that he doesn't enjoy these activities, either, but he's not being given the chance to enjoy them with the way Patton is presenting them to him. It's a recipe for disaster because Logan's needs and boundaries aren't being respected despite the whole point being to do something nice for him.

This is also a tough situation for someone to oppose, by the way! When someone does something nice for you but you honestly hate it, how do you begin to tell them that? You don't want to hurt their feelings because you know they were trying to be nice and meant no harm, but if you don't speak up about the issues you had with it, your boundaries could wind up violated over and over again and the other party would be none the wiser.

Logan must voice his frustration. He has to explain why he's upset. And, thankfully, in this section of the video, he does!

He starts by stopping Patton directly, hand out and everything. He speaks calmly and clearly, using the same tone he used when speaking to the others during DwIT to get them to chill out and not be so impulsive. Logan is using what he knows to work to make his case here, and he tells Patton that he appreciates what he's trying to do. But then, he raises his voice and informs Patton what's annoying him about it, that he can't enjoy these activities because he's being rushed through them. This is a direct communication of the issue at hand and why it's bothering him.

Patton then pauses, reflects, realizes his mistake and where he had messed up, and then alters his behavior to fix the issue.

It's so simple and succinct that Logan, while still annoyed, seems confused that Patton actually listened to him and by how easy it was to find that resolution.

And I think that's our next piece of foreshadowing, as well.

Logan has been holding back about his genuine anger and frustration over how he's treated by the other sides and Thomas. He feels ignored and only utilized as a tool, as if he were a book rather than a person (or the metaphysical manifestation of one, at least).

These are not feelings that have only sprung up recently, either - this has been happening for a very long time without Logan ever addressing it.

Until he does, the others won't realize the impact their words and actions truly have on him. He needs to speak up and the others need to listen and adjust accordingly.

With the way Patton responded in this part, though, perhaps this shows that they may have an easier, calmer solution in store than one might initially anticipate, but we shall see.

Speaking of foreshadowing, during the times Logan is shown in the library throughout this part, he is reading a book titled A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. Knowing past easter eggs and hints, it's likely this is not a coincidence.

Having read the book myself, I think it's very possible this is a potential nod to something that may occur soon within Logan's upcoming arc (whenever that may happen), as the book happens to deal a lot with the concept of imprisonment and finding ways to live through adversity.

In the book, the main character is put on house arrest in a bustling hotel in the city, but he's relegated to a cramped attic space and had left all of his books away from home so he cannot access them, because if he dares to leave the hotel, he'll be shot dead. So he stays inside, and he self-reflects because he now has a lot of time to think. He gets to know the people who work and live in the hotel, how their lives are so different than his own had been and continues to be. For quite some time, he feels the true punishment of his stay there, how the whole world outside is moving on so fast, but he is stuck inside, removed from it. He becomes effectively useless, unable to be or do anything for others (outside of giving amazing wine pairings for meals, of course), but he stays true to himself despite it all. He remains his charming and intelligent self, he makes new friends, he finds ways to be happy despite being trapped there.

The most popular quote from the book is one that says, "if a man does not master his circumstances then he is bound to be mastered by them." And while the main character in that story manages to make the best of his life and circumstances, we know that Logan is still struggling with his fate right now, being trapped within Thomas' mind as someone who cannot fully explore his own interests, who has less and less purpose since Thomas left college, and feels less respected and listened to every day.

Logan has to find a way to obtain happiness despite his circumstances, because he can't change his situation, but he can change how he responds to it.

This book may be a clue as to how he finally figures out how to do that.

The outcome of this part of the video with Logan and Patton is a satisfying one. Logan expressed his frustration, Patton listened and was able to correct the issue, and Logan was able to have a nice day after all, which is what Patton had set out to accomplish. There were quite a few bumps along the way, but it was successful in the end!

Now, onto the next part...

[let-roman-bite-someone]

expanding on one of my previous posts, i really don't get it when fanders want to paint a certain side as "evil" or "toxic" and that certain side is always Patton

these are NOT individuals who think and make decisions for themselves. they are parts of a whole. each of them have a core quality, even if they tend to show other emotions sometimes.

Logan is not apathetic, he's literally the embodiment of logic, which is why he is so detached from anything fantastical or involving emotions. he did get better at dealing with emotions by coming up with logical solutions to it, but I don't think he will ever be able to understand or relate to emotions on the same level as Patton.

Roman isn't egotistic, he is the ego. he is the embodiment of Thomas's creativity and ego, meaning that it is completely natural for him to focus on himself too much or find it difficult to consider things from another side's perspective.

Patton is not unsympathetic, he is not toxic. I've even seen some people call him abusive?? he is a part of Thomas and unless one can abuse oneself, Patton is not abusive. Patton is the product of Thomas's upbringing, he cannot help being strict with his morals any more than Thomas can go back to his past and unlearn this unhealthy mindset. it's Patton's job to keep Thomas accountable for any mistakes he makes, and what these "mistakes" are depends heavily on what Thomas was taught.

something Virgil said in one of their earlier episodes is worth noting.

"You don't want me here but I am here, and this is what I do."

this applies to all of the sides. they don't choose to do what they do, Thomas does. if Patton is "guilt-tripping" Thomas or Roman about something, that's just Thomas naturally feeling guilty about said thing. if Virgil is trying to scare Thomas, that's just Thomas being anxious.

i know it sounds a bit like i'm not suspending my disbelief, but this is actually what happens in canon. just because the sides have physical forms and act like real people doesn't mean they are. and regardless of how much they change and grow, they will always have those core characteristics that define who they are.

[intrulogical]

thinking abt the implications of remus being pissed at logan in wtit. u guys dont understand, even in dwit he never resorts to irritation when he gets stomped on. he distracts, becomes defeated, jokes around, and ultimately ends on a high note.

in wtit he is pissed. the way he does all the funny stuff— pick his nose, eat a cockroach— like he does it with a peeved expression. he is MAD y'all. definitely has something to do about him spotting logan spewing bullshit abt how he sees worth in remus, and the implications like... dude this guy cares so much about being listened to more than what he imparts. there's a reason i say logan and remus are two sides of the same coin

[fanderstuckin2018]

Okay I loved Deceit, he’s probably my favorite side, but…I never figured out why this song was on his playlist. Hmm, maybe I just need to analyze some more…

[sagesparrow394]

So I heard it’s Mother’s Day in the US, so in honour of that, here’s a very late and mildly unhinged analysis of what roles in the family the Sides claim in the 5th Anniversary video

Patton - “I’m the dad”

In the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the father is typically seen as the head of the household, the breadwinner, the one with authority. This reflects how Patton has always had a position of authority among the core sides, with Thomas often putting his say first and relying very heavily on his opinion. However, much like how the idea of the father being the head of the household is outdated and problematic, so is the position of authority Patton is put in, which we’ve already begun to see. It’s time Thomas puts less pressure on Patton. Maybe even go to the ‘other half’ of the couple…

Logan - “Why am I the mom? What gender roles are we pushing here?”

Most notably, he is the only one who does not choose his role in the family. Patton is the one to assign Logan the role of mom, while Logan’s own feelings and thoughts on the matter are ignored. This reflects the issues he’s been dealing with throughout recent episodes, being ignored and overlooked. The fact he is in the mom role furthers this, with again, in the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the mother’s work and suffering often being overlooked, because she is simply doing ‘what is expected’ of her.

Roman - “I’m the son, the hotshot, who’s only dream… is to be a star”

Being “the son” of among the ‘Light’ sides potentially links to Roman’s feelings of inferiority, believing he has less power in Thomas’ life compared to Patton and Logan - not surprising after POF. And his sad tone when talking about his dreams links to his feelings of being failure, both with the whole callback debacle and Thomas literally becoming a star, and just generally in his desire to be seen as Thomas’ hero.

Virgil - “I know you think I’m the son, but I’m not. I’ll be the gay emo cousin.”

Virgil immediately starts by separating himself from the rest of the core four, placing himself outside of the immediate family. This links to both his current strain against Patton, but also his insecurities after revealing himself as having once been a ‘Dark Side’. He no longer feels like he belongs with the ‘Light’ Sides, as was affirmed in the first episode of season 2. Rather, he puts himself in the immediate family of the other ‘Dark Sides’.

Remus - “I feel like I’m a fresh out of jail uncle.”

“Fresh out jail” equals new to the group. No one knows much about him or what exactly his deal is, since he hasn’t been around long. However, what they do know is he’s come from “jail” - aka, was repressed for being bad creativity. Therefore, they instantly have a negative bias against him and assume the worst.

Janus - “And I’m the sassy aunt. Who talks shit about everyone…”

Despite being ‘accepted’ by Thomas and opening up about his name at the end of POF, he still positions himself with the ‘Dark Sides’ and not the ‘Light’ ones. This could mean two things:

1) He has still not fully been accepted by Thomas,

Or 2) He doesn’t personally see himself as ‘with them’. Whether because he knows full well the ‘Light and Dark’ dichotomy is meaningless, or because he doesn’t trust them back, or because not all of the ‘Light’ sides accept him yet, we don’t know.

Him “talking shit about everyone” is also notable. He is the one who can see the problems among the core four, viewing them from the outside. He knows their weaknesses, struggles and issues - and he is going to make them apparent, so that they and Thomas can finally deal with them.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.

[part-time-zombie]

Hey analogical fans (myself included) I got something for you:

In My Negative Thinking, before logan compliments him near the end, virgil says this as he starts to sink out.

(my captions aren't the most reliable, but it sounds more like he said "duck out" in the video...)

Logan states that virgil actually did good, and it stops him from leaving right away, instead rising back up to hear him better.

Logan continues with what he was saying and virgil seems to appreciate it, even if he's still guarded, and does cheer him up a little bit now that logan said those kind words to him.

Then, in Accepting Anxiety, when c!thomas explains how virgil wasn't there at all, he responds with this:

His absence and total removal from the group is him "ducking out", but that's also what it sounds like he said he was gonna do at the end of My Negative Thinking, before logan stopped him.

Conclusion: virgil had already assumed that everyone didn't like him earlier, including logan, and was planning on leaving after the debate. When logan complimented him, virgil decided to stick around for a few more episodes, effectively delaying his choice to leave because he now knew logan liked him.

[clydesavage-thefox147]

[Part 2 to Big Long Awaited Theories. This one is a bit..Roman slandering so be warned, be civil and hear me out here please, sorry if it's a bit jumbled heh] (Part 1 here)

Unpopular opinion/theory here but:

I think Roman sided against the callback because if he picked it, he would be supporting Janus who was seen as a villain at the time by everyone else, so he wanted to avoid any more affiliation. His need to be the hero and feed his broken ego was bigger than achieving a life-long dream.

Don't believe me? Then what does this line mean?

Furthering this belief, there's a notable pattern throughout season 2, particularly to start with Fitting in. When Roman was assigned the role of Slytherin in the group, he was rather taken back. He refused to believe it because he pushed the understanding that Slytherins were evil. This then followed with him saying "I'm not evil!" then Virgil(in a pretty Janus sounding tone) saying "Says who?". (Also coincidence how the snake affiliated house gets called evil here).

Then cut to the episode CLBG. I find it quite funny that Roman felt like Janus used him during this episode even though Roman himself was the one who stated FIRST that acting was like lying AND started the idea of disguising as Joan to help Thomas practice. Janus only nudged him to do it on a stage. Then later into the episode, Roman states about Janus "I hate this guy and his creepy snake face, however he is very kind". First off, making fun of Janus for his snake traits that he has little to no control over having. And two, blatantly admitting that he believed Janus' flattery. He left the window wide open for what happened later in SvS.

Speaking of, in SvS, it was clear that Roman wanted the callback desperately and so did Thomas. Roman is part of Thomas' personal dreams and goals. Janus knows this. Roman was willing to give Janus the benefit of the doubt and let him explain his side of the situation which Virgil obviously wasn't too happy with. Throughout the court case, Janus' flattery was his way of keeping Roman on his side, the best overall decision that was the callback while simultaneously pointing out the denials of all the other sides and Thomas. He eventually got so fed up of them beating around the bush that he made Thomas finally admit that he wanted to pick the callback instead. Like I said before, Janus knew this beforehand so he did low-key rigged the case in favor of the callback choice. This is a positive form of manipulation called a "Contrivance". Something meticulously planned piece by piece in favor of a desired outcome. Virgil I guess was right about it being rigged. But, when all was said and done and Janus was so close to winning the case, Roman pulled out last minute, making Janus reasonably angry. Roman stated "It is my sworn duty to help Thomas achieve his hopes and dreams, but Thomas wouldn't dream of attaining his hopes through deceitful means" following with Janus pleading that that wasn't true. But, Roman's line proves that he picked the wedding to avoid committing what was believed to be a selfish act. You can see how desperate Janus was for the others to see his perspective, even benching Logan in the process to have his lesson heard instead(then did it again in POF). Janus wanted the others to see that they were blowing this simple problem out of proportion but no one cared. He knew the answer was obvious but everyone refused to agree.

Then cut to DWIT, the following episode where Remus was debuted for the first time. Many believed that Remus was sent out, out of pettiness on Janus' part which could be possible. If Roman wanted to be a good person, Janus was going to show him(and Thomas) that it wasn't so easy. Remus made Roman realize and admit that he doesn't want to end up like him. Furthering why I think he made the decision he did.

Then cut to Healthy Distractions, where I find it funny is that here's Roman trying to avoid villainy...but commits petty theft and voter fraud. Roman literally said "I was gonna rig the vote anyway". So much for trying to avoid what he literally talked about an episode prior. Sure, he could've stolen the hat out of a joke but it still is petty(both be petty bitches).

Then..cut to POF: SvS Redux. This is where a lot of this come into play. One noticable thing is within the song. Not only was the line I previously stated there but the lines leading up to it paint a different picture.

Ro: "And no one wanted you to go more than the that slimy snake"

Th: "Who pushed to do the egocentric thing auditioning" (Ro: "Yep that's Deceit!")

Now, correct me if I'm wrong..but don't you have to audition before you get a callback? And isn't Roman the physical representation of Thomas' Ego? And didn't Janus point out Egoism in SvS? AND didn't Thomas called Roman " a bit of an egoist" in the 2017 behind the scene vid? Yes. All yes. So, this can only mean that Janus, in the few months that he and Roman were on decent terms with one another, must've influenced him to get Thomas to audition(or influence Thomas to get Roman involved) since Janus is a part of the 'selfish desires'. In this case, Janus is within his right to be mad at Roman. He spent time setting up the perfect end-goal for Thomas here as a show of good faith and intentions, but Roman shoved it aside because the other sides believed Janus' was still no good.

Then after the song, when Patton was struggling with his rhetoric of morality, some moments seemed to correspond with the court case. Two of these moments Roman himself brought up in conversation. Roman stated the view of how it shouldn't matter why the prince saved the kingdom as long as the citizens are safe(in this case the prince did it for a reward). However, Patton didn't like that conclusion, claiming that that doesn't make the prince a good person. Which then prompted Roman to respond with somber expression "Yeah probably not". Roman wants to avoid any villainous affiliations. But, he also wants the praise of being a hero for his own external validation which he's desperate for(no wonder Janus' flattery almost worked). His reward was that praise and he got that for a short time.

But, according to Patton, this is a selfish act. Roman has stated that he is "a proponent of following one's heart" It would make sense to appease the heart and morality to remain on his good side. However, Roman said shortly after "if it's not helping to fulfilling one's longing, then what is the point?" Patton wasn't fulfilling Thomas' goal of finally being a star. Roman didn't really like that. But, to avoid upsetting Patton, he followed along with him. Hell, Patton was the one who gave Thomas the inspiration to even start video creation. Another incentive for Roman to follow along with him. Double Hell, Roman initially didn't like Patton's idea of using puppets back in LNTAO but then immediately flipped script which Virgil pointed out. Patton definitely contributed to Roman's final decision on the wedding. Roman thought that he was the problem for making Thomas want a 'selfish desire' over friendship, even though this desire wasn't really a big issue at all(and he sent Thomas to wedding as punishment for wanting said desire). Which prompted Patton to beg for Roman to stay on his support team. No wonder when Patton started to view Janus in a different light, Roman got immediately defensive, trying to push that Janus was evil and he wasn't. He didn't want to feel like his decision was for nothing but it ultimately was. Janus states "it served no one" after giving Roman some credit for his sacrifice. But, if that sacrifice was for the praise and glory of the others for his heroism...that's just as selfish as going to the callback. No wonder Roman was upset when Patton thought it was bad. So, why is Roman mad at Janus when he should direct some of his anger at Patton for contributing to his final decision and the moral confusion. Is he afraid of hurting his feelings? Also tagging on, the same episode he said he followed the heart, Roman said that Patton should only stick to knowing the difference between right and wrong and leaving the rest to them...well, look where that took them. Lead Patton to guilt Roman into making him feel bad for pushing Thomas to be dishonest and dishonorable which just made him more confused.

The second thing being that Roman stated the Trolly Problem. The situation of deciding to save the larger group of people or the one person. Roman did this exact same thing the court room. He had to pick between siding with the others (the larger group) on the wedding..or side with the one person(Janus on the callback). He picked the former and let Janus get hit metaphorically.

It all collimated in the final scene between him and Janus. Janus being vulnerable with revealing his name as an attempt to gain trust..all to get laughed at and made fun of. Janus retaliated with the now infamous line "Thank God you don't have a moustache, otherwise between you and Remus, I wouldn't know who the evil twin is". Roman couldn't take it. He can dish out all these insults but the second it's him who's insulted he shuts down or gets pissy right back. However, maybe Janus was right with his statement. I mean, there's been only two confirmed times Roman was ever influenced by Remus. One was the "Naked Aunt Patty" line from the 12 Days of Christmas vid and the bubbagump shrimp line in the carol itself. But, there's been moments where it seems that Roman had no influence from him and it was all his wording. Like how he responded to Janus' pinata metaphor with "I believe he's saying that you beat someone up and rob their unconscious body". Or how in one scene in CLBG, as Joan, he stated "-like your weird habit of gluing your butt cheeks together". Or how in Moving On pt 2, he was all about that butt dial lie and wouldn't stop. And finally, remembering way back to the QnA, when they were asked if they all had YouTube channels, Roman said quote "Epic fail compilations of all the horrible deaths my enemies incur after I impale them". Roman...wanted to film himself..killing people..to post on YouTube. For what? To laugh? To gloat? Does this not sound creepy to any of you? And just adding his petty theft and vote rigging and all his bullying insults up to now...yeah Janus' retort holds a lot of weight.

Another note is that Roman has been getting pretty close with Virgil lately. What's noticable here is that Roman's might be playing favorites. Notice how when both Virgil and Janus revealed their names, they were both equally vulnerable. Virgil revealed his name because he had already gained trust with the others but Janus did it to gain trust with them. Roman gave Virgil congrats for his admittance and bravery and only laughed at the Virgin joke Patton said. But, Roman laughed and insulted Janus? Even though both Janus and Virgil are of dark side origin? What makes Virgil more special? Especially when Roman hated Virgil to begin with and now they're best buddies...then he supported Janus at first and now flat out hates him. He pulled an Ono reverse card on them. Roman mainly chilling with Virgil now because they both hate Janus is definitely 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hell, in FWSA, Roman and Virgil were calling Thomas a liar constantly after he accepted Janus. Meanwhile if Roman continued to do so, he would be in the same boat. Mind you, only Patton has accepted Janus completely. Thomas and Logan are 50/50, and Roman and Virgil are against it entirely.

Janus is aware of the others' denials, lies and desires. He's aware that Roman is in denial. Roman wants to believe he made the right decision but he knows he didn't. He keeps moping and whining over how he wants to be happy and achieve his dreams but he lost that opportunity because he made a stupid sacrifice. If he was confident in his choice, he wouldn't be acting this way. Janus knew Roman would be hurt if they missed the callback. And him behaving this way long after just proves it. Janus said right to his face in the court room "You want that callback so back and it will CRUSH you if we miss it". This was true. And if Roman were to say that he did make a good decision he'd basically be lying and stooping to Janus' level. So both ways he's screwed and played. Roman is also very fraudulent when it comes to his facade. He likes to act like he's this brave prince who isn't insecure and can handle his problems alone when that is clearly a lie. Janus wants Roman to be honest with both himself and the others, the others know by now that Roman is very insecure so what else is there left to hide? Janus would know about facades..and he sees right through Roman's and so does everyone else. Tagging in here, Janus' 'wroammin' spelling meant 'remorse' signifying that Roman was giving Janus sympathy while also showing Roman's imposter syndrome(alongside other times he corrected people on his name). This wasn't Janus insulting his name first, this was him proving a point.

To add on, Roman turned to Janus after he said "I thought I was your hero" and Thomas replying "You are". Roman trusted Janus' confirmation. Janus' nod was confirming that Thomas is telling the truth but Roman only believing Janus was lying, he took it as Janus confirming Thomas was lying. Or, Janus was sadly confirming that Thomas was in fact lying. But I think the former is most likely. Roman now believes he lost his "hero" title..which honestly might be a good thing, maybe he'll try to earn it back in a very honorable way without letting the power go to his head. His bullying and grandiose behavior was his way of making himself feel important when he deeply felt like he wasn't good enough. Roman is so desperate for external validation because he can't love himself without it and Janus is trying to tell him that. Quit acting like you love yourself and actually..do so.

In conclusion, I believe Janus was more in the right here but if we must compromise, they both must reach an understanding and an apology. My theory stands that Roman sided against Janus to avoid any further association for the reward of heroic praise.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Feel free to correct me or change my mind if you so please but remain civil.

Part 3 soon.. maybe.

[fairly-uncommon-debate-tactic]

Ok headcanon/theory time. I'm probably overthinking but hear me out.

After Virgil and Logan's debate in MNT, Virgil starts to leave saying "Save your insults, I'm just gonna deck out." before Logan stops him to complement him on the debate.

A couple of episodes later in AA 2, it's pronounced slightly differently, but Virgil describes his suicide/running away/quitting (however you interpret it) as "I decided to duck out."

I think Virgil was making a last ditch call for help in MNT. He had clearly already been feeling depressed and isolated before this. This debate could have been his breaking point, and he was making one final plea to Logan to please please notice. And Logan does, though he doesn't realize what Virgil means by "deck out." Though the encouragement only delays his attempt by a few episodes when he hits the breaking point again, and this time he knows no one will hear him if he even bothers to ask for help. If the smartest person in the room didn't get it, or maybe just didn't care, surely no one else would.

But of course he was wrong and they love him and we love him hehe

[tentacle-therapissed]

I don’t think I’ve seen Anyone talk about the fact that Logan’s infamous Orange outburst had a double meaning.

Pay attention to the frames that we see literally right before Logan yells ‘stop ignoring me!’

Thomas checks the messages he sent to Nico for the millionth time that day to find them still unanswered, and there’s a close up of his eyes narrowing.

‘Stop ignoring me’ wasn’t just something Logan was saying to Remus. It was something Thomas himself was thinking at that exact moment, about Nico. It’s why he jumps back in surprise when Nico immediately FaceTimes him (as if Nico somehow heard his thought and complied), and at that moment the orange fades from Logan’s eyes.

I think this means Remus’s line “Who do you really want to scream that at?” could also have a double meaning. The straightforward answer is that Logan wants to yell at Thomas to stop ignoring him. But there’s a second answer too— that the Orange side wanted to yell at Nico to stop ignoring him.

I’m a firm believer that Orange represents something akin to anger/rage/wrath, and this kinda just strengthens my theory. While Orange is obviously very intertwined with Logan’s feelings, he is of course still ultimately a representation of Thomas’s own state of mind. Right now, Thomas’s anger just seems to be manifesting through Logan for reasons yet unknown.

[orbmanson7]

Why Logan is Trapped by the Narrative: A Quick Analysis on the Effects of Thomas' Black-and-White Thinking

Why is Logan so caught up on not being seen as a joke?

Why does he care so much about what Thomas and the others think of him?

Can't he just be Logic without having to deny he has feelings, without constantly filling only the roles of exposition in the show and the voice of reason for Thomas?

Well, here's the thing: Logan is trapped by the narrative.

Thomas' perception of the narrative, to be exact.

Think of it this way - you know how so many people argue that we can't have a female president in the US because she would somehow be "too emotional" to handle the position properly?

While complete nonsense (at least in comparison to plenty of emotional decisions men can make, too), the point is that people see the role of a president as someone who is calm, collected, and in control. They know that person will have to make very important decisions, so it's believed they need to be someone who is informed and level-headed.

Similarly, if you were to hire a lawyer, only for that lawyer to constantly get angry and loud and scream at people when someone argued with them, would you trust them to be able to do their job properly?

If you went to the doctor, only for your doctor to cry and sob with empathy for you, only offering up niceties and positive words instead of factual information to improve your situation, would you ever go back to such a doctor or trust them to help anyone?

People perceive certain jobs and roles in very specific ways.

It's not that a lawyer can't get emotional, but they need to understand how to keep their calm when they are doing their job. It's not that a doctor can't have empathy and care about their patients, but they need to not let it interfere with their work.

People tend to see the world as more black and white than it actually is. We perceive people for their roles, not as the multi-faceted folks that they truly are.

Just because you see a coworker who's always quiet and reserved doesn't mean they are like that when they go home. Just because your teacher is strict and quick to find faults doesn't mean they are like that when they're on vacation.

Often, people think someone can only be one or the other, not varying shades of both and more. But even people we know very well can have aspects that we don't know or understand.

Logan exists within shades of gray, removed from those arbitrary constructs society holds but still required to operate within them because of Thomas.

This is why he has to insist on being heard, being taken seriously, not making mistakes.

Because everything relies on Thomas' perception of him.

If Thomas doesn't find Logan reliable? He won't be reliable.

If Thomas doesn't trust him when he tells him the truth? He won't be trustworthy.

If Thomas thinks Logan is wrong about something? Then Logan will be wrong.

It all comes down to how Thomas' mind perceives everything, and Logan is always, always torturously aware of that fact. Thomas is human. He has a lot of black-and-white thinking that he hasn't challenged just yet.

It's because of this that Logan knows he can't mess up, because then Thomas will see those mistakes as him. He will be identified in that way.

We see this with the other sides a lot, too, by the way.

Patton isn't taking seriously even when he has good suggestions because he's always telling jokes and relying on feelings. But Morality is something important that should be listened to and taken seriously at times, as it's meant to guide your actions.

Roman is reprimanded a lot for arguing and yelling at others, but he is constantly fueled by passion. He's built to stand up for what he believes in, even if he's wrong or making an impulsive decision in the moment! Tampering down that passion would prevent him from expressing the Creativity that he embodies!

Virgil's entire role is to scare Thomas into not doing things that could potentially hurt him, so Thomas perceived him as scary and villainous for a very long time. But without it, Thomas could easily get hurt!

The same can be said for Janus and Remus, too. They initially come off as villainous, bad, and evil, despite their actual purpose and intentions, only because Thomas has perceived them and their roles in that way.

Logan cannot make mistakes because then he'll be seen as unreliable or wrong. He can't display emotions because then he'll be seen as emotional, compromised and unable to make unbiased decisions. He can't be seen as a joke or not taken seriously, because then Thomas' perception of him as a voice of reason, as someone with valuable knowledge, as someone he can always trust to tell him the truth...that will all be gone. It will warp Logan into something that he's not, so he has to maintain those rigid guidelines as much as absolutely possible to remain in his position.

Does this mean Logan really can have emotions? Can he enjoy silly activities or a good joke? Yes, of course he can.

But it needs to be kept separate from his role as Thomas' logic.

And this is where the issue arises. Because Thomas wants his sides to constantly act as their own characters, this puts a lot of spotlight on Logan even when he is in private. He can't be perceived at any time as someone Thomas can't trust or rely on, so his role as Logic invades the other part of his existence, too.

If a lawyer was stoic and formal even at home with their family, their family would probably find them odd, and the lawyer would probably feel stressed about being completely unable to ever unwind.

If a doctor could not show empathy even to their own children, relying only on facts, unable to comfort them because their coworkers could see their every move and they couldn't risk being seen as emotional for even a moment, the doctor would likely have a very stilted relationship with their kids, unable to connect with them in the way they want.

For Logan, he has to remain a reliable, unbiased, unfeeling Logic at all times because he is constantly being perceived as such.

Because it's all about who's watching and what's expected to be seen.

Logan wants to be more than his role as Logic, more than what is expected of him. But he knows the consequences of him trying to do so could harm Thomas in the long run, leaving him without a much-needed voice of reason.

So he's not going to let that happen, even if that means he has to hide away all the parts of 'Logan' that don't quite fit what Thomas expects of him.

Because Thomas needs him to be Logic a hell of a lot more than he needs him to be Logan.

[intrulogical]

with discussions of logan and the book from the new sasi short, something i'd love to talk about more is how the sides, most especially logan, fit the theme of "doomed by the narrative" in a more Meta way than usual.

the reason i call it more meta than the usual is the fact that c!thomas CREATED these sides within the narrative itself. the sides are aware they are part of a bigger narrative/content c!thomas produces, often addressing the camera. and yet, they continue airing their personal issues with each other, and you realize there's such a blurred line between these characters' lives and the stories c!thomas constructs sensationalizing his sides.

i was talking to @orbmanson7 about this, and they described the entire situation as: "but the kid gave them sentience to make their playtime more fun, it's so cruel." and i though this was perfect. the sides didn't have to exist, but they were created to personify c!thomas, and later on developed their own personalities independent of c!thomas. and yet, their capabilities are still confined to the fact that they are sides. they're unable to do things but personify c!thomas, and any wish to do something more would be nullified.

maybe for sides like roman or patton, it would be better. they're struggling, but c!thomas still likes them very clearly. but then we get to people like logan and you realize the true dreadful potential of being confined to your side-hood. we already know logan has been gradually losing influence on c!thomas ever since he pursued arts. in a normal person, it would be nothing because we don't have our logics personified. yet, c!thomas did, gave sentience to something that doesn't need it, and for what? for logan to feel like he's failed his job for decades?

i always thought it was horrific for a side to constantly fail at your job because, i mean, what else can you substantially have? they can't have aspirations outside of c!thomas. something i wished people acknowledged more is that c!thomas has more influence over the sides than the sides have on him. he specifically shapes how they are, how they change. and with logan, it's especially terrible because... what's he supposed to do when he can't do the one thing he's supposed to do? what's he supposed to do when there's no way out?

logan sanders, forever doomed by the narrative. a plaything given sentience for fun, only to be ignored and neglected for the following decades.