#liriel baenre

[banished-away]

[tantlisart]

[bramblepatch]

I made this for d&d purposes a while back but let's be honest it's equally applicable to most people who encounter either Drizzt or Liriel before the age of 100

[the-banished-one]

reading homeland vs reading daughter of the drow

[lunastrophe]

House Baenre Family Tree 🕷️

House Baenre family tree(s) - I tried to include every Baenre related by blood to Matron Mother Yvonnel Baenre, to see where Minthara could be placed, more or less accordingly to the existing lore. There are several different options, so for now, I did not include her anywhere.

Feel free to let me know if you find a mistake, or some other Baenre to add 🙂

• Grey background - character dead • Grey stripe - character's current (around 1490 DR) status unknown

🕷️Daughters of Matron Mother Yvonnel Baenre and their progeny:

In case of Vrellin, he was only mentioned to be Triel's nephew, so it is not really known if he was a son of one of her sisters, or a son of one of her brothers.

Bladen'Kerst, Vendes and Sos'Umptu were never mentioned to have any children.

🕷️Sons of Matron Mother Yvonnel Baenre and their progeny:

🕷️ Other relatives:

For more of my drow lore ramblings, feel free to check my pinned post 🕷️

[mintharabaenrelore]

Paladin VS Cleric

To clear up any confusion, I'm not comparing the two DnD classes, but rather discussing them in relation to Minthara. I want to explore why she is a paladin rather than a cleric (@trappedinafantasy37 made a brilliant post on that!) and the nature of her Oath.

Also, thank you all for 101 followers. I'm overjoyed to see people are enjoying my posts, and I adore the fun comments, the questions, the helpful advice, all of it. Lolth kyorl dos!

Why is Minthara a paladin, not a cleric?

Of course, there are two practical reasons for this. One, Minthara does not worship a god after Lolth and the Absolute. On the DnD wiki, the Godless Cleric subclass states, "As a Godless Cleric, your power was not bestowed upon you by a deity, but rather you siphon it from a divine source. [...] Regardless, you bypass the affinity of a deity yet tap into divine power."

Furthermore, the Dungeon Master's Guide says, "In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose." So would Minthara, as a cleric, have to worship a god? Not necessarily, but there is not a Godless subclass in BG3.

And two, Shadowheart is a cleric. Since you meet her first and by Act 2 many players are accustomed to her, to avoid the predicament of having not one but two clerics in the party, Minthara would end up sitting around camp in many people's playthroughs if she were a cleric, too.

Lore-wise, it seems as if Minthara should be a cleric. She canonically attended Arach-Tinilith, as she mentions her Ceremony of Graduation as well as having seen "the black academies of Tier-Breche." Only males could Melee-Magthere and Sorcere; exceptions such as Noori Baenre did exist, but Minthara's comments about her religion, her profession, and her worldviews are- in my opinion- solid proof that her school was Arach-Tinilith.

A priestess or cleric is the default profession for all noble female drow, particularly a Baenre, as many Baenre females go on to become High Priestesses.

My theory is that she was a cleric originally and became a paladin later on in her life. She was trained by her House as "a soldier in Lolth's service", not to mention she led the expedition to Moonrise Towers; she spent time raiding and pillaging the surface; she performed interrogations; she punished "heretics" and anyone who defied Lolth. Minthara, in Menzoberranzan, was powerful, not just due to her heritage but- I believe- due to her unique role. Her mother believed she was "special" since birth, and considering Minthara's draa velve fighting style, she likely had some considerable combat skills since youth; the paladin class combines the religious fervor of the cleric with the impressive battle prowess of a fighter. It must have seemed like the obvious choice. (It makes even more sense if her mother is Zel'Tharra Baenre.)

I also think she, quite literally, began as a cleric, as her Magic: The Gathering card portrays her as one, and when you first meet her, she fights with maces- the classic clerical weapons.

What is the nature of Minthara's oath, and why isn't it broken?

"I took up my oath long ago, when I swore bloody vengeance against any who defied Lolth. Now, I myself have sinned against the Spider Queen." This statement from Minthara reinforces my theory that she became a cleric/priestess of Lolth and took up her Oath soon after.

As we all know, Minthara's oath is the Oath of Vengeance.

Minthara's focus, and the point of her Oath, is to punish her enemies. The identity of her enemies has changed with her- first, Lolth's enemies, when she was loyal to the Spider Queen; now, the Absolute, particularly Orin the Red and Ketheric Thorm, for obvious reasons.

Now, let's discuss how her Oath remains unbroken, as I have seen many people questioning that. The tenets, according to the Player's Handbook, are as follows:

"Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.

No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can't get in the way of exterminating my foes.

Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds."

It is possible to break Minthara's oath in the game, by doing something that will break the PC's. But if you are not playing as her, she won't do those things of her own accord.

Minthara advises you to do things that may break an Oath of Vengeance- such as accepting Gortash's proposal or letting Astarion become the Vampire Ascendant. But does she do those things herself? No.

Take a closer look at those tenets- Minthara has not broken any of them, not exactly.

When she worshipped Lolth: She fought what she believed to be the greater evil, namely heretics. She showed no mercy to her sworn enemies (Lolth's enemies) and did not let her qualms interfere. She did not allow such dangerous beliefs to 'harm' her people or her goddess.

And now, after the Absolute: She fights the Absolute- the greater evil than just about anything else. She does not show mercy to her enemies; although she does feel "sympathy" for Ketheric Thorm, she counteracts that by wishing pain upon him soon after and ultimately celebrating his death. No matter how much she may dislike a companion or the PC, or disapprove of the PC's actions, she continues on. (This is significant, as people sometimes wonder why she tolerates unnecessary actions of kindness or what she interprets as foolish choices. She has to.) And Minthara does follow the tenet of Restitution by helping the party in their quest.

I believe everything she did under the Absolute's control is irrelevant to her oath, as she couldn't help her actions, and genuinely believed she was acting justly in her god's name.

Minthara herself is unsure whether her oath will hold after the cult is defeated when you ask her about it, but she doesn't mention it having broken at the epilogue party.

If Minthara's Oath is broken, she says, "My Oath is broken. I still hold to the tenets of vengeance, but I am no longer bound by any word of vow." She seems happier when it is broken.

So, what did she do in her society?

As I said, Minthara held considerable power in Menzoberranzan. Raiding and pillaging the surface, performing interrogations, functioning as a "soldier" in Lolth's service. She also states "I have hosted gatherings of House Matrons and High Priestesses who wanted nothing more than to murder each other before the night was done. I have negotiated the handover of hostages and smiled politely while sensing a dagger at my back," so she clearly also has some experience with diplomacy.

Aside from such things, she spent time reading "history books", and Emma Gregory suggests that she was something of a loner. Perhaps she felt isolated, despite Lolth's favor and the power at her fingertips.

One final note- Elaine Cunningham's "Daughter of the Drow" mentions how Liriel feels "affection" for Lolth, in a way, when sourcing her magic from the goddess. With the strength of Minthara's beliefs and her oath, it's plausible to suggest Minthara felt similarly, perhaps more so- and that is part of why she was so crushed when her goddess abandoned her to her fate in the Moonrise Towers prison.

[vspin]

"Do you know why we wizards are tolerated in Menzoberranzan?"

Liriel cast a quick, startled glance at her father. "Target practice?"

[rukafais]

Some Liriels. I'm not sure about how I drew her hair here, I might do some more workshopping about it later. She's fun to draw though!

Liriel's childhood, her experiences with her mother, and how it seems to have shaped her is fascinating to me. I would have liked to know more about Liriel's mother especially, since she was so deeply devoted to loving her daughter.

(And I'm always struck by that very small moment at the start of the first book, where she instantly realizes that her mother is dead. I always wondered if that was too much of a shock and she was later emotional about it in private, or she sort of just repressed it...)

[ekcess]

When I reading books about Drizzt Do'urden and Liriel Baenre: "Yes, magic, adventure, very interesting, but can we go back to the socio-economic structure of Drow society? Why is it that when describing the origin of an aristocrat, they talk about their mother's House, and when they talk about a commoner - about their father's profession? How does the average family work? If all Drow are trained in swordsmanship and the art of torture, where does, say, the son of a mushroom farmer learn this? So many questions, so few answers..."

[cthulhu-cat]

[banished-away]

starlight and shadows + textposts, because i think about this series a normal amount

[tantlisart]

📌This brilliant meme: https://www.tumblr.com/banished-away/745787007722307584?source=share redraw:

This man has regrets, but dealing with dragons is not one of them.🐲

Postscript: I can't shake the feeling that Gromph must be here… Did he do something with the dragons?

[everybodyloveshippos]

[mtlupy]

Stupid, sexy Drows. 🖤

Drizzt Do'Urden (I'm not sure what happened to his other sword 😭)

Eilistraee

Liriel Baenre

Lolth

Randal Greycastle (born Elklyn Auvrylyl)

Umraee Auvrylyl (Randal's biological mother)

[lunastrophe]

"You worship what?"

[munnchausenzip]

Getting into forgotten realms lore is kind of funny because wdym theres TWO menzoberranzanyr good aligned outcast noble drow with Weird-Ass Specialest Eyes..