#like yes. aros and aces i think share that same isolation of not wanting. but it's always (and aro)

[sircarolyn]

asexuals (and aromantics) asexuality (and aromanticism) asexuals(/aromantics!) (and aros!) (aro)ace (aromanticism!!)

[our-aplatonic-experience]

i'm so tired of people treating friendship as THE human experience.

that's why i've never felt comfortable in school, where if asked i needed to lie about being friends with people i never truly knew or cared about. yes they were cool and i value time we spent together, but i never wanted them outside of my school life. i didn't know how to avoid these interactions, like how could i have possibly refused people wanting to be my friends? i've never wanted them to feel hurt, so i lied, and continued to participate in actions that brought me no joy, just because i had this need to conform. then i felt guilty because i didn't feel something i was supposed to. i felt broken. i was confused, why i asked myself it had to me?

i was so deeply uncomfortable with all of this, i thought it would be better if i just ran away, disappeared from the lives of people who considered me their friend. and i did, eventually. i studied online for a year. i completely isolated myself because i was convinced that every social interaction i may have needed to result in friendship. i had no one to talk to about this because i was scared anyone might find out how i really felt.

then i changed schools. things became a bit better, i found my clique. i was learning to accept myself, even though i still didn't think of this as something other people might experience.

as i grew older it became more and more obvious that i'm not actually attracted to anyone, be it romantically or sexually. i had little to no difficulties accepting this because i knew it was fine, that sex and romance might just not be for everyone*. but i took me much longer to understand that basically the same appplies to friendship, because platonic relationships are thought of as shared, common and universal human experience. i can't even imagine how much my life could've been better if i knew that there are, in fact, no relationships i must have to be a normal™ human.

and now, when i finally came to terms with my feelings and embraced being loveless apl, i can absolutely say it changed the way i view life. i have learnt to not be ashamed of who i am. it felt like i found a missing piece and, for once, finally felt complete. and i wanted to thank all of you, those who contribute to the apl and loveless community because if it wasn't for you, i don't think i could've ever been able to accept myself fully.

also, thanks for reading the brief history of my life lol

*for clarification purposes: the environment i was in at the time was very supportive of aro and/or ace people & i personally had known a few before coming out myself. i understand this might not be every person's experience and i didn't want this to sound dissmisive of other people's struggles to accept their aro and/or ace identity <2

– 8

sorry this was rotting in my inbox for so long, just now got energy to read it

jm glad you got to accept your identity:D

[mcmactictac]

Hello hello I was randomly thinking about this as I was at work and I’m finally getting a chance to write it this is gonna be a long one folks buckle up today we’re talking about the hunger games, and specifically the “love triangle”

I’ve watched/read the series throughout various points in my life and my opinions have always changed slightly as I grow older and gain more knowledge. I personally see Katniss as aro/ace, I think it makes sense for her character. I’m not really qualified to talk about that but I have seen some people in that community do a wonderful job explaining it. So with that in mind I’m looking at this through a more practical lense, who compliments her personality and needs best.

Now I have always stood by that at the very beginning of the series, Gale and Katniss made sense. They were on the same wave length, they survived off each other and made good sense. If they had actually decided to run off before the games, they would have worked. But as soon as Katniss comes back from the games, it all goes to shit. Because she’s no longer on that wavelength with Gale. He doesnt understand and he never will. And during the games Peeta was the person she “survived” off of. Yes she carried them but they were in it together for a while you know?

Now she doesn’t really trust Peeta yet. I mean yeah she likes him, she put in the effort to help him but she doesn’t have that connection she had with Gale at the start. And you have to keep in mind that the games were really not that long. Katniss and Peeta hadn’t spent that much time together before the games ended. So although they are intensely bonded out of trauma and necessity, once shes out of that situation she tries to detach. But you can’t go back to how it was before. Suddenly you’ve killed people and you almost died and you lost people and it’s intensely traumatic. Katniss never wanted to show off, it was all about practicality and survival. And you come back different than before, with the guy you spent so much time with interpreting your actions wrong. He wants conflict. He invites it for the “greater good”. Katniss really doesn’t want to cause more fighting. She has already fought enough. And Peeta is the only other person (besides Haymitch) who knows what the games are really like. And her and Peeta will always share that burden together.

Like Katniss, Peeta never wants conflict. He’s smart and he can get what he wants in other ways. Without him admitting his crush on Katniss in the first book, he likely would have died. He can get closer to what he wants without hurting people. He only volunteered in the Quarter Quell to protect Katniss, not because he wanted to go in and prove something. He fully intended to die so that she can live. He’s fiercely loyal and understands in a way no one else ever could. Even after mockingjay, at his core those qualities are still there.

Gale is a raging fire full of heat and passion, Peeta is the gentle warmth of a fireplace. Gale leads with practicality and Peeta leads more with his heart. Gale is the sharp sting of wind on a winter morning as it freezes your skin, Peeta is the warmth of natural sunlight in the summer. For a long time, Gale guaranteed safety. But after the games, that wasn’t true anymore and especially after Mockingjay with Prim. Gale is 100% responsible for that. In a war situation, it’s a good move. A really really low blow, but effective and he knew that. He spends so much time wrapped in his anger and his determination to do what’s right he loses his empathy along the way.

Katniss wants safety. She doesn’t want to fight, she doesnt want to run anymore. Gale can’t give her the stability, the safety, the comfort that she so desperately needs. But Peeta can. He’s going through the exact same thing. “Choosing” Peeta promises stability snd understanding. Not having to fight. Just enjoy the peace and simplicity. Peeta makes sense because Gale is never going to understand her. She’s always going to feel isolated around him.

Peeta understands. He’s connected to her through their history, and they grew and changed together. Gale and Katniss grew apart as Peeta and Katniss grew together. At the end of the series the only “choice” for her is Peeta because she doesn’t trust Gale anymore. He isn’t safe, he isn’t the more peaceful life she wants anymore. He evolved and wants something different, and their values don’t line up any more. Peeta provides the soft warmth and compassion she needs.

That being said she doesn’t NEED anyone. But she does a shit job taking care of her own mental health, and Peeta would be able to help her with that in ways Gale can’t. Post everything, Peeta is a better support than Gale, despite Peeta being unstable himself.

That being said I was a Gale fan the first time I read the books like years ago but the older I get the more it’s like. They’d never work. They aren’t the same people they were at the start. After Katniss comes back from the first games they were never going to work because Gale was always focused on moving the revolution aspect forward, and not on the fact Katniss was in severe mental distress.

Katniss is perfectly capable of providing for herself, but she needs someone to support her emotionally as she works through her trauma. Peeta is the only person who can do that by the end because he’s the only one who understands and that she trusts. That’s all!!

[robotslenderman]

Someone on Reddit was asking why labels were important and I went into a whole goddamn essay because my Vyvanse is kicking in.

TLDR - Labels are important for communication. Without communication, we are isolated. Sexuality is so fundamental to our experiences as human beings that being able to describe those experiences succinctly can mean the difference between feeling isolated and feeling connected. Also sneering at ace people for microlabels dismisses the asexual experience as so unimportant that we SHOULDN'T be able to describe our exact experience of it, when discussing asexuality often requires these labels because of how varied and complicated the asexual experience is.

I've been waffling on the fence about microlabels but I've decided that no, microlabels aren't overthinking it, for the reasons I discuss below. In the past I've reblogged things saying that microlabels are about isolation instead of connection, that further dividing our sexuality into smaller and smaller boxes creates increasingly exclusive clubs.

I no longer believe that. I believe it does the opposite. I believe that being in touch with your sexuality just as much as you need to helps you connect to others even outside your microlabel, not just within it, because then it makes it clearer to everyone involved what experiences you have in common and makes it easier to set aside the ones you don't.

You don't understand how important labels are until you've struggled without one. It's human nature to use language to describe our experiences, and when we don't have the language to do so it is stressful and isolating. Because language is how we connect to other people, so when we can't use easy language to summarise our experiences, it becomes isolating.

My personal experience - I struggled with my asexuality for years, even before I began to realise that I was asexual. Even once I started letting myself admit it, I didn't feel that the word "asexual" was enough. Sure, I could explain to people "I'm asexual and don't want to have sex, but I love sex in theory and in novels and I love reading about romance and daydreaming about them, but don't want a relationship." That's a very specific type of asexuality that people don't think of when they hear "asexual". People hear "asexual" and think "doesn't like sex."

But people use labels because others don't want to stick around and listen to your dissertation on what your sexuality actually is, they want bite sized information as soon as possible and sometimes YOU want to describe who you are without spending a ton of time explaining it. It's not just because I want to understand myself, it's because I want other people to, too, and labels is how we communicate. It's the fundamentals of how language works. Labels are so important that they consist of two entire grammatical categories - adjectives and nouns.

So when I found out about aegosexuality? I was like "oh thank god, I'm not a broken asexual, I'm this specific TYPE of asexual."

Most people haven't heard of aegosexuality. I used to actually roll my eyes at microlabels like that, thinking it was needlessly self absorbed and pretentious. But now I get it. Now I have the ABILITY to summarise my experiences in one word, and it turns out that having that ability to use language efficiently to describe myself has brought me quite a significant amount of peace. Because when I tell people I'm asexual, they often have a certain idea in their heads of what asexuality is, and I don't fit under most of that. Many asexuals don't, because asexuality is the most complicated sexuality there is.

But god is it fucking exhausting to say "I'm asexual" and then have to hold a fucking Q and A session about how I'm asexual and yes, I really am asexual even though I'm not adhering to someone else's idea of what asexuality is. By knowing I'm aegosexual, I can say, "oh, you're thinking of X type of asexuality, which is when you experience Y. I'm aegosexual, which means that I still get horny and love sex in fiction, but I don't personally want to experience it, unlike X type of sexuality which doesn't like sex at ALL."

And then people get it! They don't get "I'm asexual, but different." That just makes them think I'm not actually asexual, or that I'm an allo in denial who needs therapy to be "fixed". They get "I'm asexual, but this specific type of asexuality that has a name." People respond to names. People respond to labels. They GET labels, even ones they haven't heard of, even ones they roll their eyes at because they think we're over thinking it because they assume that because their sexuality is so fucking simple, everyone else's must be too.

I still tell people I'm asexual because a lot of the time my type of asexuality isn't actually important. Actually, most of the time I tell them I'm queer and leave it vague because queer is a wonderful umbrella word and my sexuality isn't anyone's business. For me, "queer" is often enough because it communicates that my experience isn't a straight one, and that's usually all people need to know.

But having that label just on *hand* that describes my experiences, and having the option to use it to people who do know what it means, and being able to hand it to people who are lost like I used to be lost -

That's powerful. It's important. It *matters*.

It's not like needing a label for yourself because you prefer pineapple on pizza, this is sexuality, this is the kind of thing that makes or breaks your experiences with other human beings. When you're straight your sexuality is so simple and easy that you don't even need to think about it. You're straight. That's easy. And as homosexuality becomes more accepted I'm seeing baby gays start to take that attitude as well because they're gay and as homosexuality becomes less stigmatised, it's allowed to become more simple.

But other sexualities don't have that luxury.

Bisexuality and pansexuality are more complicated because often people experience a split attraction model, or they don't have equal attraction to different genders and they're not fully comfortable describing themselves as bi or pan because again, people hear "bisexual" or "pansexual" and assume that you experience the same amount of attraction to different genders and it's important to be able to communicate to people that no, you don't. The whole point of using a word is so that the other people understand you - if they don't understand the word, they don't understand YOU. So I think bisexuality and pansexuality is also a spectrum in that there's different types of both depending on how your attraction works, and that it would help bi and pan people to have more specific words - using bisexual and pansexual as an umbrella term much like queer and asexual - to allow them to better communicate their experiences.

And asexuality is, I think, the most complicated sexuality of all. It's based not just on who you're attracted to, like other sexualities, but if you're attracted at ALL. No other sexuality has a footnote attached of "but this one likes sex" or "this one doesn't like sex" or "this one is indifferent to sex". Even bisexuality and pansexuality don't. It also has the contradictory feature of involving some level of attraction - demisexuals and grey aces experience attraction! Just only under specific circumstances. The split attraction model is also much more significant; whereas some bisexual people are explicitly homo- or heteroromantic, many asexuals are not aromantic, and many aromantic people are not asexual. This is far more common with us.

It's also the ONLY sexuality where the split attraction communities are actively hostile to each other. Aromantic people have lately been slinging a lot of shit at asexual people because in their need to be told apart from us (I say "us" even though I'm aromantic myself because I'm also asexual), some have gone to the extreme of showing outright hostility to asexual people and show offence for being associated with us at all. When I thought that I was bi, for example, I NEVER saw this kind of shit between homoromantic bis, heteroromantic bis and biromantic bis. Only the asexual and aromantic community has this hostility.

I respect that aros don't want people to mistake them for asexual people and that's important for the same reasons I've been discussing in this entire essay, but here I'm referring to outright hostility aimed AT asexuals because of other people's failures to understand them. "Aromanticism isn't the same as asexuality" is not hostility. Treating asexual people like garbage - or even aroace people because they dare to exist as asexual AND aromantic - is hostility. This hostility is rising.

So asexuality is deeply complicated, and when you have completed concepts, you need simple labels to communicate that. And frankly - allos don't fucking get it. Bi and pan people do to a certain level, but their sexuality, while more complicated than being gay or straight, is still not as complicated as asexuality. That's not a bad thing, having a more complicated sexuality doesn't make us superior, nor is complication the same thing as depth. Other sexualities are not shallow for lacking the same level of complication, nor should they be taken less seriously.

But it does mean each sexuality has nuance to it that you can't understand without being that sexuality, and it's vital not to fall into the same trap straight people do that your experience of sexuality applies to everyone else, of assuming that because your sexuality isn't complicated to you that it must be the same for everyone else or we're overthinking it. And it's important for us to be able to succinctly sum up our sexuality so that we can share our experiences.

People who've never faced that don't understand how important it is to feel connected to people by being able to efficiently describe yourself. To use language is to connect, to use language and labels is to communicate. Without that, it's an isolating experience, simply because people do not fucking want to hear you bring out a PowerPoint presentation to talk about yourself when they just want one word. And when you're talking about something that defines your human experience, that makes your ability to communicate it THE difference between being isolated and disconnected, and feeling human.

Having different levels of labels helps, too. Sure, I'm aegosexual, but even if most people knew what that meant, most of the time it's completely fucking irrelevant. Most of the time all I need to do is say I'm queer - because I'm communicating that my experience isn't a straight one (or a cis one, if you're queer because of your gender). Sometimes I need to say I'm aroace, or just asexual, because that's what the conversation calls for. It's only when discussing asexuality itself that I actually need to say I'm aegosexual - but that's important, too.

Discussion of asexuality is no less important than being able to say I'm ace, or that I'm queer, and a lot of allos think that distinguishing yourself from straight people is important, that distinguishing yourself from non straight people is important, but asexuality itself is so unimportant that we're not allowed to distinguish ourselves among each other. And that's just another form of aphobia. It doesn't mean that we're going "ew, we're not THOSE asexuals" like I've been seeing in the arosexual community lately, it's being able to say "this is my experience of asexuality, so I'm viewing our discussion through THIS lens, whereas you might not."

And it's so fucking typical that allos think that that shouldn't be important to us. I regret ever thinking the same.

At the end of the day, we need language. It describes our experiences, and without being able to describe those experiences, we are isolated. We need language and labels to connect.

[ckret2]

Okay so I got an ask like,

anonymous asked: whose ur favorite Hazbin character? Like your absolute #1 and why?

and technically my answer is Alastor, but Sir Pent is such a close second that I gave my reasons for him too in that ask, and now I’m making a second post about Alastor.

Reasons I really like Alastor but like, only slightly more than Sir Pent:

- Honestly “I can suck ya dick” *IMMEDIATE BRAIN BREAK FACE* is probably the moment I, like, mentally latched on to Alastor’s character, and at that point I don’t think I even knew yet that the creator had said he was ace. It just... I could feel the aceness in my soul. Like that thing where Jedi run into somebody and go “oh you’re strong in the Force, I can tell.” That was just such a perfect and succinct ace joke, and by that I mean like it feels like a joke from an ace perspective. Like it was so relatable.

- tbh half my reasons for liking Alastor are “oh that’s relatable,” which is hilarious, because like... I don’t like characters because I relate to them, ever, but because I think they’re interesting in their strange/different ways. Alastor is the sole exception I can think of where half the reasons I like him is because I look at him and go “oh big mood.” Other ace or aro characters I’ve seen in the past just make me go “oh... okay. cool. nice, representation for me” and then I don’t really care about them. Alastor, though, the SECOND I learned he was ace, something in my brain went “FUCK YES. ONE OF OURS.” I immediately sat down and started writing a character study fic about Alastor being ace/aro in the exact same precise way that I’m ace/aro, and that was even before we got confirmation that he was aro. I was ready to go all in on him anyway.

- Half the reason I like his ace/aro-ness when I don’t care about it as much on other characters is because like... usually, when you get an ace/aro character, it goes one of two ways:

1) their entire character is built around/“in tune with” their ace/aro-ness, in a way. Most obvious when you have the stereotypical “robot/alien that cannot love,” but also seen in “character that is naive and pure and innocent and lustless,” “character that acts like an actual literal child,” “character that acts like a bad autism cliche,” “character that’s too cold or cruel or emotionless to feel love,” etc. And that’s boring, when they’re only ace/aro because the writer cannot imagine a character Like That being any other way, or because the writer cannot imagine an ace/aro being Any Other Way. 

Or, 2) they’re written as “too normal,” as in, like, NOTHING ABOUT THEIR PERSONALITY or life experiences or anything seems shaped AT ALL by the fact that they do not share an internal sense of lust and/or romance that most of the rest of the human species not only has, but also is obsessed with.

And Alastor falls in neither camp. He’s gregarious and talkative and puts on little performances wherever he goes, and he obnoxiously butts in on somebody else’s group project by begging for an opportunity to help out and then obnoxiously volunteers his friends who hate him to help with the group project, and he’s manipulative and dangerous and secretive and violent, and he hides his emotions and he disguises when he’s feeling weak... and also the quickest way to throw him off his game is to make a sexual pass at him because he’s blindsided so hard by it that it’s like for a moment there he forgot that sex exists.

And that’s what I want to see. A character whose personality isn’t based on/tied into his ace/aro-ness, BUT we can clearly see his character IS INFLUENCED by the fact that he views the world through a completely different lens from everyone else.

I can imagine that Alastor had to puzzle through What Is Love/What Is Desire, purely on a psychological “what’s going on inside other people’s heads?” level, as an outside observer incapable of participating it and trying to understand it based on anecdotes and fictionalized accounts and descriptions and conversations, comparing it to the emotions inside his own head and trying to go “so it’s kind of like this feeling plus that one and those, but More, and Different, and in that Other Direction.” I can imagine that as a kid Alastor “decided” to have crushes because he knew it was about that time it should be starting, and it hadn’t happened by then, so maybe what he needs to do is pick whoever he thinks is best-looking and get going with the crushing on them, right? I can imagine that Alastor spent his teen years waiting for his desires to “turn on” the way they did for everyone else, and being slightly puzzled when they took so long, but also okay with it because the more he thought about it the more it seemed like it was probably a nuisance—no one around him was someone he’d like to be attracted to—so he was fine with the fact it was taking so long, and he sort of assumed that it wasn’t because he didn’t have the capacity for desire but because none of his peers were desirable to him. I can imagine that he had his first kiss at like fifteen and thought it was horrible and gagged on it, and within an hour decided this was absolutely hilarious.

I can imagine Alastor having all these experiences—which are experiences I had. I’ve never seen another ace/aro character I can easily and naturally imagine having a single experience in common with me. Because no other ace/aro characters feel to me like ace/aro characters. They’re either characters with an ace/aro sticker arbitrarily and meaninglessly slapped on them, or they’re a walking stereotype about lovelessness.

- Besides Alastor’s spectacular Asexuelle Panique™ face, the other single line that made me latch onto him was “Why does anyone do anything? Sheer! Absolute! Boredom!” There are some very specific character types that I’m an absolute sucker for, and one of them is: extremely powerful character, at the top of their game, unstoppable and uncontrollable and unmatched, a loner who likes it that way, BUT they’re bored as hell, either because they’ve met all their goals or because they don’t know how to set any—and the boredom is eating them up inside, it’s driving them slowly mad, the sheer tedium of trying to fill one day after another with nothing to do is weighing down on them, if depression is usually compared to a heavy rain then this depression is like an endless empty waiting room, or depression like solitary confinement, or depression like an unmoving sun shining on an infinite flat desert, the depression of a completely empty hollow life leveled flat by infinite interminable boredom, a boredom they would do ANYTHING to get rid of, a boredom that’s like a withdrawal, a boredom that makes your hands shake and your pulse quicken with desperate need for the drug to stave off the withdrawal symptoms, but god, you don’t even know what the drug IS, you just know you NEED it, some form of stimulation, ANY stimulation, you’re going mad in this empty desert with your hands trembling and the withdrawal clouding your mind—

Have I mentioned that I have ADHD? Did you know that untreated ADHD can result in depression specifically due to chronic mental understimulation? I keep telling myself “bruh, don’t headcanon Alastor as having ADHD, you don’t even headcanon that he has any other traits that line up with ADHD symptoms,” but like. That one line. “Sheer! Absolute! Boredom!” I felt that in my very bones. There is desperation in that man. There is desperation in him that speaks to me like nothing else does. Like to the point that if it turns out that Alastor secretly DOES have a secret evil manipulative scheme going on I’m going to be annoyed/disappointed specifically because his driving motive isn’t boredom, lmao.

Anyway I feel for characters like that. I like to explore that desperate despairing boredom. I like to force them through that understimulation withdrawal, drive them to do stupid wild desperate things to try to get the stimulation they need. And then, when I’m feeling nice, I like to help them find a cure. Usually I imagine the cure is “dude, you’re such a loner that you’ve cut yourself off from the rest of the human race, you have NO human connections, even when you’re technically interacting with other people you’re still completely emotionally isolated inside your own shell. Make some goddamn friends and start to care about other people and their lives and you’ll find that the act of having other people exist in your world who matter to you will give you that stimulation you’re desperately missing.” Because these desperately bored characters are also desperately emotionally isolated. And they might be happy/content in their isolation—but they’re not doing anything to cure their own understimulation like that.

(“Hey OP is that how you cured your understimulation?” nah I got ADHD meds.)

- Remember everything that I just said about how much I love that Alastor is aro? Well forget everything I just said. Chuck it out the window. Bye.

So every once in a while I find a character that, for whatever reason, I really, really, really want to see pining. I want them to be in love, and I want it to be unrequited, and I want it to go on for years. I want them sobbing in private and then hiding it completely when they face anyone else. I want them to hurt so bad they feel like they can’t breathe. I want them unable to think about anything but their beloved. I want it festering inside them like an infected wound. I want it to hurt. Forever.

(“Hey OP do you uh, do you ever, yknow, want them to get their loved one?” yeah sure whatever)

For some reason, Alastor is one of those characters. Why? I dunno. I haven’t figured out my mental pattern on these ones yet. Maybe it’s specifically because it’s so incongruous with his outward appearance/and attitude. Maybe it’s because he’d do a really really good job at hiding it, but also I think he’s probably kind of a mess inside under his mask, and I think adding unrequited desire under that mask would mess him up anymore in really spectacular ways. Like a china cabinet that shifted in an earthquake so that if you open all the doors all the plates will fall out and break, except they’re already all broken inside of the china cabinet, but he’s in denial about that as long as he doesn’t open the door. I dunno, I’m speculating.

- On that note: I feel like he’s probably, like, hypercompetent and super powerful and super successful on the outside, but actually he’s a sort of screwed up dork who’s got no idea what he’s doing. (I present the furby organ as supporting evidence.) I like extremely powerful deeply feared dorks, ESPECIALLY when they have no idea what they’re doing.

- Also, affable villains. Totally friendly/sociable and totally evil.

- I dig his weird radio schtick. Like, Radio Stuff isn’t a thing I specifically like about characters, but on him I think it’s cool. Character gimmicks that can go a lot of ways and that you can do a lot of stuff with in character development are fun.

I think that covers all the important bases.

[otdderamin]

Analysis: Caduceus and Caleb build their relationship – CR C2 Ep47 2:40:07

REVISED: The original article was written before Talks Machina 2019-01-15 where Taliesin clarified that Caduceus' feeling for Caleb are platonic. This article was written on that assumption anyway. It's been lightly revised to include that certainty and include the Talks Machina Transcript.

The two flattering exchanges between Caduceus and Caleb caught my ear as much as anyone. There's clearly some stronger, closer relationship forming there. Maybe it will come to something else one day, but on review, I was not reading it as romantic overtures so much as two socially awkward people trying to communicate kindness, which Taliesin confirmed on Talks Machina 2019-01-15 (0:39:18). Taliesin: "I will say he doesn't feel that way [about Caleb], though, but yeah. Yeah, he don't- he doesn't have a thing going on in that direction, but he's definitely like, 'Yeah, you're cool.'" I really like the idea of an ace/aro Caduceus who basically doesn't understand the concept of flirting. He just thinks you should be kind and supportive to all living things and ease their insecurities, but other people reserve that for ulterior motives.

Caduceus' comment that Caleb smells nice (3:23:42) came directly after Jester was projecting all her insecurities & making Cad feel insecure himself before she tried to correct (3:22:56). Caduceus could see that the joke about Caleb being stinky was really bothering & hurting Caleb in the same way. So, Caduceus was partly trying to reassure Caleb that wasn't the case and passive-aggressively put an end to the joke with the others. And doing that with his disarmingly frank honesty and supportive personality. Taliesin said on Talks, "I think that it's more the teasing that he smells bad." (0:38:03)

Caduceus is flattering to plants and animals he wants to reassure and persuade to be kind to them in exactly the same tone. And Caleb was irritated enough to be withholding magic from them until they apologized (3:23:46), so there's a similar motive here.

Also, this is Taliesin. He tried to flatter sentient grass with Percy and it came off as flirting (CRC1 Ep060 2:21:56). He's expressed before (on Gather Your Party, I think) that he sees flirting as a way of making people feel good about themselves without necessarily expecting it to be reciprocated.

Caleb offering Caduceus the book I've a harder time reading, as did Caduceus. He's clearly stumbling his way through trying to build a positive relationship of some kind. Caleb's been socially isolating himself for such a long time that any attempt to peak out of his shell is a bit startling. Caleb saw Caduceus being very kind to him when his best friend was being an asshole, and he had something he could offer in return. He was trying to practice returning kindness that wasn't so transactional, which he is very, very rusty at and unsure about.

Caleb was also unsure what value it would have to Caduceus. Caduceus is as backwoods as you can get, and clearly not that bright. Caleb was probably unsure if books were something that would ever interest him or be of any use to him. Remember that Molly was barely literate, so I can see why he wouldn't want to make assumptions. Also, this is Caleb making himself even more vulnerable by trying to share his dearest passion with someone else he feared would reject it.

There's clearly some form of attraction there from both of them, but let's look at a multi-layered attraction model view of it. It could be romantic or sexual from Caleb, but those seem to be tied up in a lot of old baggage. Taliesin explicitly said Caduceus isn't sexually or romantically attracted to Caleb (0:39:18), and Caduceus has frankly never expressed having either attraction at all.

We're clearly seeing emotional attraction, the desire to get to know someone better as a result of their personality. Both Caleb & Caduceus have been isolated and struggle expressing this in general. Caleb by withdrawing and not getting close, Caduceus by being overly friendly.

Caleb seems to have been testing intellectual attraction by offering the book. Caduceus is wise in ways Caleb is not; Caleb is smart in ways Caduceus is not. They complement each other. Intellectual attraction is the desire to explore how someone thinks and know them that way.

Caduceus obviously shows high sensual attraction to everyone. The desire to tactilely interact with people in a non-sexual way like hugging and cuddling (frankly, this is also just Taliesin). Caleb shies away from a lot of physical contact with people.

The UNC-Chapel Hill LGBT Center has a great article on multilayered attraction called "Asexuality, Attraction, and Romantic Orientation." It's linked on the Critical Role Campaign 2 Index, but Tumblr punishes external links. It's something developed in ace/aro discourse that applies to everyone and everyone should be aware of to better understand themselves and others. People can be attracted to certain genders more than others in any of these ways, and they might not line up. Gay ace and aro people exist and are just as valid, even if there's strict limits on the sort of relationship or physicality they want.

In examining character interrelationships, I think it's important to examine the context they've already given for their preferences. I've written an analysis of Caduceus already. He not only expressed no interest (or experience) in sex, he's tried to firmly avoid the subject every time it comes up and seems completely mystified that anyone thinks he should engage that way. Even in this conversation with Jester, he's lost for how to respond when she asks, "So, like, if you think something dirty, [Melora] knows?" (3:22:56)

Given that he's been clear, be it celibacy or asexuality, it makes me extremely uncomfortable when other people decide he should want sex (even as a joke) because that's a microaggression against ace and celibate people that happens CONSTANTLY. It's rape culture and gross.

Caduceus has also not particularly expressed any romantic attraction to anyone past or present, and he doesn't feel that way for Caleb. He was perfectly content on his own. He seems to just want friends. He hasn't expressed being against the idea, so this is uncertain.

Caleb, I don't have a clear read on, but he shows many signs of feeling too damaged for relationships at the moment. He has his hands full with friendships he's still scared of. It's possible he doesn't know what he's feeling at this point.

So, this is not to step on anyone's ship, but there are other equally interesting motivations & desires that could be at play here, which frankly line up with more evidence, & which have MUCH less representation. It'd be nice to not see those possibilities drowned out, especially given that we have a canonical answer.

The character growth here is significant, whatever the subtext. Caduceus reached out to comfort Caleb when everyone else was giving him a hard time. Caleb reached out as the very first person to offer Caduceus help on the quest he left home for. No one else has cared.

Some stronger bond was formed here between them. Some greater trust. Caduceus is getting through like Beau has, and it's built on a base of greater comfort, healing, and respect for goals. However it plays out will be fascinating.

3:38:57 Caleb: "I'm glad you are traveling with us." Caduceus: "Me too, I'm... I've never felt so helpful." It's brief, but Caleb actually warmly smiles.

Transcripts

Scenes run:

1. CR C2 Ep47 Jester asks what Melora knows, Caleb smells nice:  3:22:50 to 3:24:16

2. CR C2 Ep47 Caleb gives Caduceus to book: 3:38:12 to 3:39:09

3. TM 2019-01-15 How Caleb smells to Caduceus and attraction: 0:38:09 to 0:39:57

1. CR C2 Ep47 Jester asks what Melora knows, Caleb smells nice

3:22:50 Jester to Caduceus: "Do you think the Wildmother can hear your thoughts?"

Caduceus: "Well, I know the Wildmother can- knows everything."

3:22:56 Jester: "So, like, if you think something dirty, she knows?"

GIF: Caduceus looks confused.

Jester: "What if, like, you're thinking like, 'Oh mom, I've really got to poop?'"

Caduceus: "That's- I don't- I mean… Sure?"

Jester: "What if you're thinking, 'Oh man, you know, I think I smell a little bit today,"

Caduceus: "I've never really thought that."

Jester: "but what-I've got a booger in my nose…"

Caduceus, more anxiously: "Now I'm thinking about that. Oh man, I've got a booger in my nose." He curls in to one side rubbing the side of his nose."

Jester: "What if you think like, 'Ah, does my breath smell bad?' Do you think she thinks-"

Caduceus, alarmed: "No, does it?"

Jester: "Do you think- No, your breath smells fine, but I'm just won-"

Caduceus: "You're sure?"

Jester: "No, you smell pretty good."

Caduceus: "Oh, that's nice." He rubs the bridge of his nose again. "Ah, think about this."

3:23:31 Nott: "Speaking of stinky, Caleb, what'd we get? What's our stuff?"

3:23:37 Caleb, incredulous and perplexed: "I have been in the ocean for days, and days, and days, and days."

Travis: "He's the most sterile he's ever been."

3:23:42 Caduceus: "I think he smells great."

Jester, excitedly: "What did we get; what did we get; what did we get!"

3:23:46 Caleb: "Well, first I want you to admit that I have been washed from top to bottom for a month."

3:23:51 Caduceus, firmly: "I think you smell fantastic."

Jester: "Yeah, if anything you smell briny now."

Caleb, pointedly to Caduceus: "Well you're- You are a nice fellow."

3:23:57 Caduceus: "Thank you. But no, really, I do actually think you smell very nice."

3:24:03 Caleb, satisfied: "You see?"

Jester: "Yeah. I didn't say you were stinky. Nott said you were stinky, Caleb. I think you smell like salt and fresh air."

Nott: "Like a douche."

Caleb: "Revved up."

3:24:16

2. CR C2 Ep47 Caleb gives Caduceus to book

3:38:12 Taliesin: "I'm going to gather some of my stuff and go to the crow's nest."

Matt: "Okay."

Taliesin: "Big everybody good-"

Caleb: "Oh, uh…"

Caduceus: "Yeah?"

Caleb: "You're going up?"

Caduceus: "Yeah."

3:38:21 Caleb: "Do you like a good book?"

3:38:23 Caduceus: "I- I'm not going to be reading up there, but…"

3:38:25 Caleb: "I don't mean for tonight, in general."

3:38:27 Caduceus: "I- I'll admit I'm not the best reader, but… I've read a couple books."

3:38:33 Caleb: "But you have? Um… One of the books that we found in that… ball-o-fun is about the corruption of plants."

3:38:45 Caduceus: "I would be curious."

3:38:47 Caleb: "I thought you might be."

3:38:49 Caduceus: "I'll… If you could leave it in my- my quarters, that would be most agreeable."

3:38:54 Caleb: "Surely."

3:38:56 Caduceus: "Thank you."

3:38:57 Caleb: "Mmhm. I'm glad you are traveling with us."

3:39:00 Caduceus: "Me too. I'm uh… I've uh… never felt so helpful." He gives a half bow.

3:39:09

3. TM 2019-01-15 How Caleb smells to Caduceus and attraction

0:38:09 Brian: "[@asahi_azumane] Caduceus has mentioned in a couple of episodes that he likes how Caleb smells, is this just to refute the teasing from the others or does he find something comforting in Caleb's smell like Nila […] with her smell bag?"

0:38:36 Taliesin: "I'll actually, I've often just assumed that Caleb smells a little bit like peat moss."

Brian: "Oh, really?"

Taliesin: "Or just peaty and dirty…"

Travis: "Oh! Not manure, or fertilizer but…"

Taliesin: "Not manure…"

Brian: "No no, Pete Moss, the tennis player."

Taliesin: "but like peat moss, earthy. Just from, from… Yeah, Pete Moss."

Travis: "Yean he has the soil in his hands, and…"

0:38:03 Taliesin: "Yeah, well, 'cause he's got a pocket full of weird things that he uses and they're all kind of like interest- I don't- I think that it's more the teasing that he smells bad, I don't think he actually does."

Travis: "It's not a sandalwood fragrance?"

0:39:03 Taliesin: "I wish. That would be amazing! But, like, I actually think it's legitimately from a, 'No, I think he smells pretty good. I dunno.'"

Travis: "Yeah, earthy fellow. Alright."

Dani: "I appreciate Liam hitting his breaking point with that last episode, and be like, 'You HAVE to admit that I smell fine now!'"

0:39:18 Taliesin: "Yeah, no and, like, I think Clay is always… And it's not like a sexy thing, like, 'Woo, hey!' But like, you know, 'No, you smell great.'"

Travis: "You can compliment I fellow on his…"

0:39:27 Taliesin, firmly: "I will say he doesn't feel that way, though, but yeah. Yeah, he don't- he doesn't have a thing going on in that direction, but he's definitely like, 'Yeah, you're cool.'"

Travis: "Try telling Tumblr that."

Taliesin: "Tumblr is welcome to their own opinion, and I'm not going to disagree with them."

Travis: "Boy, I tell you."

Taliesin: "I am not going to stop anybody from having a good time with their…"

Dani: "Everyone can ship whatever they want to ship."

Taliesin: "Yep. Nope."

Brian: "Except female presenting nipples."

Dani: "Yep. No, Tumblr has a really bad problem…"

Travis: "Or lithium batteries. Most couriers have a problem with."

Brian: "They cracked down on that."

0:39:57

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