#like i still think mizora only wants to have sex with tav to get to wyll but imagine being mizora

[antiqua-lugar]

tav being canonically so attractive that people just throw themselves at them is super funny as a galemancer because like so many people in-game (and the game itself at times) call gale either annoying or pathetic straight up to his face but tav is turning down all of faerun for him. everyone desires them carnally and they are busy getting ready to be introduced to gale's cat over dinner.

[pythoria]

In light of the new astarion voice lines in reaction to mizora, I think we finally need to put to rest the whole monogamous vs polyam astarion discourse. Here's the thing. Polyamory is never explicitly discussed or negotiated at any point during the astarion romance. You get individual instances of astarion being okay with various things, like a one night stand with the drows or halsin. It's unclear in the coversation about halsin if he's agreeing to a one night stand or a three-way relationship deal, he just gives you a general go ahead to do whatever you want with halsin because he trusts you. But then halsin doesn't stick around at the end of the game, and by the time he leaves he's only ever been with astarion in the context of the drow orgy (which is optional), and only sexually. Halsin is only interested romantically in the player char from what we're shown. Everyone is free to headcanon otherwise or write whatever fics they want, but as long as we're arguing about canon we have to be very specific. Nothing about any of the conversations with astarion suggest polyamory. They might have suggested a sort of open relationship situation before, but now with mizora, we have proof that there was no negotiation or blanket consent given off screen for having sex with other people, and in fact, it hurts astarion deeply to see his partner engage in sex with someone else.

Now, you can argue it's because he didn't consent to it beforehand, fair enough. Let's walk through what that conversation could've looked like, shall we? If you'd have asked him if you can sleep with mizora, he could've either said yes or no, it's pretty straightforward. From how upset he is, and the fact that he doesn't bring up you not getting his approval beforehand, we can infer his answer would've been "no" (because if he would've said yes anyway, you would get the type of reaction you get with ascended astarion, a "next time invite me" type response). So then, why would astarion say no to mizora specifically, if asked? After all, he's presumably okay with meaningless sex, even when he's not involved, because he lets you sleep with one of the drows all by yourself. And presumably he's also okay with it when feelings are involved, if he's truly okay with the halsin arrangement. So what part of sleeping with mizora is different? Why would he suddenly disagree with it if he was previously okay with similar arrangements?

Here's the thing. Astarion says yes to things out of pressure. Obviously he tells you so himself in act 2, "i didn't know how to say no", and that's corroborated by his dead expression during the drow 4/5some. He says yes to things, hates them, and then depending on how violated he feels afterwards, he decides whether or not it's a forgivable transgression on the part of his partner. He HAS to do it after the fact, because prior to it, he doesn't know how he will feel, he doesn't know if something specific is going to be the thing that tips him over. When he says "i didn't know how to say no" in act 2, it's not just that he instantly knew he didn't want to have sex with tav and went along anyway, it's also that he wasn't sure what he was supposed to do, and maybe mistakenly believed he could put up with it, until he actually did it. With the drows, the only difference is that he does put up with it, by dissociating. For astarion, something is either too much, or something he can tune out and deal with. He never expresses any "mild" discomfort that you can talk to him about, except for when he's anxious you want to have sex with halsin because he doesn't put out. And even then, there's nothing you can say that will make him disapprove of the halsin thing, short of completely breaking up with him. He voices an insecurity, sure, but even when told that insecurity is legitimate, he still agrees to the halsin situation.

This is why I need everyone to understand, there is no polyam negotiation with astarion, he blanket accepts everything until he snaps, because that's what trauma victims do. I'm not saying this out of a desire to prove astarion is monogamous, either. If the game showed healthy communication about this I wouldn't be here arguing about any of this. Polyamory is valid and can be done in a healthy way, but what you have in the game is not a representation of polyamory, it's a representation of a trauma victim not knowing his own limits and chugging full speed ahead until he snaps. The mizora exchange just cements that further. The roll you have to pass to get him to stay with you isn't "let's discuss boundaries, i didn't know this wasn't allowed", it's "this didn't mean anything". If this man was already okay with meaningless sex on the side, why would you need to convince him of it? All you're doing is manipulating him, and the result of that manipulation isn't even "okay, you can have meaningless sex from now on as long as we talk beforehand", instead, he says he forgives you. There's no implication that this could happen again, if only you have his consent, he just forgives you for this one transgression and agrees to move on. And let me be perfectly clear, I've shipped polyam ships before, I don't have an inherent bias against it. But we all, collectively as a fandom, need to learn to read the room. The signs of discomfort are all there, it doesn't help anyone if we put on horse blinders and ignore them. My only desire is to see astarion interpreted faithfully, not to start or contribute to a war people seem to be having about the validity of polyamory in general or in real life.

So, in conclusion, we need to separate headcanons from canon. Canon is, at best, unclear on what Astarion is comfortable with. It helps no one to act like this is a clear cut issue on either side, but imo it's more harmful to potentially force him into situations he's uncomfortable with than to just let him lead, since he doesn't propose any of these arrangements himself, and never does them for his benefit, only his partner's.

And one last thing. This is not to say "don't do these things because they're bad". They're in the game so you can do them and roleplay however you want. However, we need to be realistic about the kind of characters we're playing. If your tav pressures astarion into these various situations, that's not a good-aligned tav, and that's okay, as long as you're not pretending otherwise. I love an evil durge playthrough as much as the next person, but none of it would be cathartic or fun if the whole time I was under the impression that murder is actually fine and good.

[not-so-lost-after-all]

I saw some of your posts about how the game implemented the poly thing in regards to Astarion and I have to agree with you, the lack of dialogue in which Tav can tell him that he's enough, that they don't need another person in their relationship is glaring! I suppose they didn't include it because they didn't want to offend the fans who are for the arrangement, in case Astarion would've reacted too happily at the player telling him he's enough (realistically he would be VERY happy)? Either way, it's stupid. The whole thing is very badly done and I think the fandom should stop pretending Larian wrote this well and act like it's good poly representation. They didn't and it isn't. Yeah, some people will be offended if you tell them the truth, but this doesn't mean the rest of us should sweep the bad writing under the rug so we don't hurt some feelings. Clearly Larian intended to portray a healthy polyamory relationship in which all parties enthusiastically consented but I think in their desire to do so, they overwrote it inadvertently portrayed the type in which a partner agrees to this type of arrangement not for their own sake, but for their partner's. Oh and I love how these people guilt trip other fans, saying they're infantilizing Astarion for questioning how genuine he was about it or for not liking how the devs implemented poly, or accusations of hating real poly people, poly erasure and so on. If Larian wrote this well, most of the discourse surrounding this issue wouldn't exist.

Fans of this choice will chide you for having doubts and tell "it's normal for him to have insecurities, you just have to reassure him and it's all fine" and will also point to the dev notes saying Astarion is genuine about it except…you can even CONFIRM that his insecurities are true, that you have a problem with him NOT fucking you and he's still fine with it. What the fuck, Larian? Maybe I'm getting something wrong, but him accepting this kind of disrespect from his partner who outright tells him they care more about sex than him as a person is either a red flag which confirms he still has problems setting up his boundaries or again…bad writing. Not sure which is worse. Personally, I tend to believe it's both and after the new Mizora datamined lines in which the player CAN still manipulate him into forgiving the cheating I have to say it's quite clear that he can still be taken advantage of. Sorry, but a person who can healthily establish a boundary won't forgive his partner cheating on him, let's not pretend otherwise. It's GREAT that he's still confronting the player about what they had done, but it's not a good sign that he can forgive a cheater. Oh and let's not forget how before the datamined dialogue for the Mizora cheating many people used the fact that Astarion was seemingly okay with it and didn't have any disparaging reaction as proof of him being open minded about allowing the player to have casual sex with anyone…

Also, why the confidence about believing that Halsin will keep it at sex only when it's clear it's also about feelings for him. Yeah, he has prior experience with this, but is it really enough? It creates the impression that Tav is either lying to Astarion that their relationship with the druid will only be about sex or that Tav is lying to Halsin, therefore using him for sex only when clearly it's more than that for him since feelings are also involved on his part. Again, Larian didn't really think this through. Oh and it gets worse when nothing in the game suggests that Astarion even likes Halsin, if anything he talks about finding him annoying…

It's fucked up that that the Halsin conversation ends up with him agreeing with it no matter what you're going to say. People will probably say "well, Astarion is polyamorous, that's why he simply agrees with it"… well, for someone who's supposedly been written as poly from the beginning, he never brings it up on his own! It's always the player the one who does it. Since communication is so important, we should've had the option to discuss such matters at some point. What type of relationship he prefers to have with the player? Is it fine if the player only wants him? Maybe he would've told us he doesn't want to be in a monogamous relationship and that at some point he will seek out other partners on his own. Or I guess only Tav is allowed to have others on the side?

Now post-Cazador the whole thing feels less bad, but not by much. His impersonation of Halsin, the exaggerated laugh, the 'it's okay if things between us change' lines…sorry, it just puts you off. Not to mention it just doesn't fit into his romance arc, especially when he remains a spawn. He's in his first real relationship with a person he just confessed his love for and very importantly, he's just began to learn that sex can also be about having a loving, intimate connection with his loved one, and more than what he was forced to do, more than scratching an itch and you just prove the opposite by doing whatever you can to have sex with others. It's just bad. (and to ask bluntly, why do people act as if Tav will die if they go on without having sex for a while? oh the horrors!! Not everything has to be about sex all the time)

To argue that well, actually going poly is GREAT for Astarion and that he must be likely relieved about Tav having someone else to have sex with because it takes the pressure from him in the relationship to perform and now he has time to figure himself out…yeah, just stop. This is just coping and headcanon lol. He doesn't need his lover to fuck other people in order for him to figure what he likes, get real. Now I could be persuaded into thinking that in the future when he will have had more actual experience about what being in an actual relationship entails, he could be truly open to trying poly, but right now, to open the first and ONLY real relationship (that's a few months old!!) he has to poly seems a bit cruel from Tav's part. Had HE been the one initiating this, maybe it would've felt different. The only one getting anything positive out of this is Tav. I think it's silly to pretend otherwise. The same goes for the orgy as well (yes, he does consent to both, I'm not saying otherwise), it's bothering me a lot how a lot of people in the fandom think you NEED to take him to the brothel and have an orgy for him because, apparently, they say it's essential to his healing journey. I had someone tell me I'm a bad partner for not doing this with him, that I'm intantilizing and taking away his agency and freedom to choose…so, yeah. This is the BG3 fandom for you.

Regardless, people should of course feel free to do anything they like in the game without being judged or called a bad person, but those of us who feel uncomfortable about certain things shouldn't be dismissed as mere haters or bigots. Our criticism is still valid. It's funny how you can criticize the writers for pretty much everything you want except the horny parts of the game…now that's when people get really angry and come for your head.

Now this ask got so incredibly long, sorry about it! I'll just end this by saying I like your blog and agree with your takes about Astarion (oh and yes checking Astarion's tag on tumblr is a challenge in itself, sone of the stuff you can find there...ugh). It's just nice finding fans out there who aren't insane about him in a bad way and who don't praise every writing decision the devs made just for the sake of it.

Nonnie, yeah, it was long but it was apparently important for you to vent 🙂 I'm sorry if the sex positive crowd left a bad taste in your mind. I honestly prefer to stay in my small corner of the fandom and usually don't bother to argue or correct anymore. I've said many things you have mentioned myself and I'm probably done with this topic. It's pointless to be upset about what some people do with their barbies - but you should hold you ground when someone says something idiotic like that the brothel experience is "healing" and you should defo do it for him. The poly thing is so badly done I'm not even sure why he'd dismiss that option with Shadowheart in Act 3 if he's poly, to be honest.

[shadowkira]

First of all, I'm Karlach. I have Karlach levels of game. So, I partially find this scene incredibly endearing and would 1000% absolutely have drug her away from camp as soon as she tried.... Whatever that was out. Party raging be damned. Who cares if they hear us?

That being said... Why do you only get this cute, bumbling confession if she knows you already agreed to meet up with someone? Lae'zel and Shadowheart's scenes both trigger automatically, Karlach's only triggers automatically if you're interested in another companion. Otherwise, you have to admit your crush on her.

Sure, okay, she can't actively touch you yet... but romance isn't just about sex. Shadowheart's first scene is pretty chaste too and she can touch people and is FAR from a saint.

Even if you argue that Karlach is lacking in confidence from her ten years spent in Avernus... Even if it's because she doubts you'd pick her over the other companions because she can't touch. It feels... gross. This feels very "polyamorous is bad but cheating is okay." Idk how else to articulate that thought in another way right now?

Neither Karlach or Shadowheart strike me as overtly monogamous. I could see them agreeing to be monogamous for a partner but they have literal dialogue in the game that contradicts itself. Karlach offers Tav or the origin characters the chance to see other people until her second upgrade. She has a fantasy in her origin run about a threesome with a woman and a man.

If you start romancing Shadowheart and then have a scene with Karlach, she immediately tells you that you seem happier. She wishes she was the source of your happiness but wishes you and Karlach the best... in this interaction, you can defend your stance on the matter and say, "I'm not a swan, I don't mate for life." Shadowheart still declines, stating that Karlach deserves to have you to herself.

Also Shadowheart, if you're romancing her and fuck Mizora: "I know I'm not dating a swan, I don't expect you to mate for life. But tell me next time and remember that I have needs as well." (Or something similar, I watched it on youtube out of curiosity.)

That's blatant using the same type of line in two completely and contradictory ways? And also her saying she's okay with you fucking other people but not actually?? She also still finds Karlach attractive and it's clearly mutual. My sapphic, polyamorous lizard brain does not compute any of this in a way that makes sense????

Please just let me be polyamorous on PS5 without mods. Because this is like the first thing I've seen for this game that doesn't sit right with me.

And it also kills me because Karlach is too sweet for that. She literally just said that she thinks there's actually someone soft behind Shadowheart's spiky exterior. Why would the sweetest girl in camp state a few seconds later that she wants to steal you away? 🤔

[sorcerous-caress]

I think Larian should put in some sort of tag to make it clear you're lying or being manipulative in that scene because otherwise I do think it just comes off as very muddled (and a little unfair to people who wanted to play it that way and instead were blindsided by being told they're lying and broken up with)

The reason I read it as manipulation is because that's what Mizora does, and she's using magic to manipulate your physical body so it would make sense if she'd influence your mind as well. She clearly didn't have good intentions and even if you the player have complete control Tav the character I still feel could easily have been read as being manipulated into it with minimal RPing necessary. And just in general I feel like a lot of people would want to play the scene that way

And with Astarion I just don't see the acting when you do that dialogue tree vs other ways to play that scene, like it rather seems like the act drops but that could just be Neil’s acting conflicting with what was actually written

Basically I just feel like cheating and manipulation are both ways to read that scene that make complete sense and it's a little disappointing that the game doesn't make it more obvious that it's not

(also I really hope this doesn't come across as arguing I genuinely think this is an interesting discussion even if I don't agree with your perspective)

Oh no! I am absolutely enjoying this discussion, anon. I love talking about my thoughts and hearing your different ones. I never thought of it as arguing in the slightest, I was actually looking forward to your next reply every time I answered <3 million smooches to you anon I'm having so much fun rn.

And about the dialogue tag thing, I absolutely agree. A lot of people mentioned it too in the game feedback. Even ingame I picked a lot of options that I thought were innocent or meant as a joke only to be met with the fact they meant something completely different and had to reload.

It needs to be clearer when you're lying to someone, flirting with them, being serious, or joking. Remember the hoards of people who tirggeted Gale's romance accidentally by just being nice to him?

Especially about lies, a lot of times I'm confused about the options available because I'm not sure if Tav is making shit up, or if i missed out on a major detail.

And maybe it's subjective.. Someone could argue that you genuinely did believe that Mizora manipulated you because she does leave a mark on you that you never agreed to at the end. I don't see it that way but it's up to interpretation.

I was someone who fell for Astarion's acting during Act 1. All that nice talk and coaxing? His honeyed words to get you to sleep with him? I genuinely took them to heart and believed them. I was like oh he already told me about Cazador so he trusts me and definitely isn't manipulating me ehe!

Throughout all of my first playthrough, I avoided all spoilers and discussions about bg3. I was genuinely eating up all of Astarion's flattery and dialogue. When he confessed to giving me sex in exchange for protection during act 2 i was extremely confused because when did that ever happen?

He seemed very eager in all the sex and flirting scenes?? I didn't get it at all at the time and didn't realise how good of an actor he is.

The only time when I genuinely saw Astarion for who he is ,is when he admits to the fact you would've been one of his victims in the cage in another life at Cazador's palace. Even when surrounded by his mistakes, he deflects any attempt of you to put the guilt on him.

I actually left the game for a week straight. I felt both disgusted with myself for also seeing him as a sex object, i am no better than these people in the cages. Yet also disgusted with him for manipulating both my character and irl me for so long. That's why i feel weird to write nsfw about him even now, I feel weird when I see sexy fanart of him. Astarion is genuinely one of the most complex characters I have ever seen, and I can't simply reduce him to a victim or a sexy vampire. His writing team and voice actor work is phenomenal.

I did the cheating on him with Mizora, too, just out of curiosity and reloaded myself after. I felt very assured when he said he didn't mind and didn't blame me, that sleeping with a devil is a chance you don't simply miss. I trusted his words because I didn't know better.

Only after when I finished the game, saw more posts about him that go in depth about his character and the many many ways he manipulates you in to ensure his own safety, did I actually see him fully as a whole person.

That's why I'm doubtful of even his sympathy during the manipulated Mizora option, the delivery doesn't show a hint of lying in the slighest I agree. But also for me none of his other canonly manipulative lines show any hint of lying for me.

Remember the orgy in Sharess Caress? Where he is all enthusiastic after the Cazador is dealt with, but during it he completely zones out? Doesn't the fact he tells you to "let him join next time" after the Mizora event ring any similar alarms?

I think in the most generous cases possible, he isn't aware he is manipulating you. He is just saying what he thinks would please you. It clearly would make you happy to have the drow threesome even while he himself was sex replused since act 2 and until act 3. Like how it would make you happy for him to not make a big deal out of the cheating.

But it's interesting that you can see honesty in his responses. If anything, it shows that you're piecing together the slivers of truth he lets slip out during his acts because even he himself can still make mistakes and reveal the truth amidst a lie.

There is also another theory!

Astarion doesn't care about sexual cheating, only romantic cheating.

During the Halsin poly dialogue, he gets really happy when you reassure him that he is the one you love. The one your heart lies with. Then tells you to go fuck Halsin as much as you want.

So in this scenario the fact Mizora is a devil matters a lot because Astarion says it himself, devils do not fall in love.

Maybe that's why he was all giddy and smiles, knowing fully it's just sex, something he barely puts value on anymore since he has been freed of i, and doesn't mind you sleeping with devils.

At the end of the day, yeah, like you said, cheating and manipulation are two valid ways to read into the conversation. It did feel rushed a bit, we didn't even get to actually fuck Mizora Goddammit! If i wanted freaky weird magic sex I would've fucked the local wizard instead!

Mizora's intentions are just to make your lover jealous, she admits she just wanted to stir the pot and saw you as a target.