#like he was such a complex character and this season he was OOC and overall lesser for it

[aspec-argentum]

As an aromantic it really pisses me off that tua s4 took a character where his familial relationships are the most important thing to him and then had him hook up with his brother's wife and immediately want to abandon his entire family to spend more time with her!?

[cabbxges-and-kings]

I really wish s4 of turn would've included a throw back to Thomas' death (Abe's brother Thomas) when he was undercover in the British army. Since I'm sure Richard would be glad if both of his sons served, maybe not so much after Thomas' death, but still. It was built up as this big impactful thing in s1, in his trial in s3 Abe confesses that he "killed" his brother. So it was still relevant to Abe's character at that point. I know not a lot of people like Abe and wouldn't care for seeing any reference to it, but it could've surfaced in his mind after losing his father: his mother, brother, and finally, father all being dead. Since his brother served and was killed during his time serving in the British Army, it could've strengthened his bond with Mary, or something, since it's his death that caused the two to get married instead.

[starry-eyed-steve]

What do you have against Ronance? It's clear Robin was attracted to Nancy as well as Vickie. Not only that, she jumped off a boat into monster-water for her, for goodness' sake. It's a bad-faith argument to say that people don't ship Vickie with Robin because she's a bisexual sapphic woman. Greatwise/Will and Gareth is not comparable in the slightest as that is a crack ship that never interacted. We DID have scenes with Robin and Vickie, though few.

And I'm gonna be So For Real, more people would ship Rovickie if Ronance was not there. People would devour those crumbs. But why choose crumbs, when you have a potential meal we spent a whole season with?

Okay, so this is really long, I'm sorry this took way too much time. I know I went a bit overboard. If there are any errors, please ignore lmao. Thank you for sending me an ask for a discussion. I also want to preface that I don't hate Nancy as a character, I don't like how she is written in certain situations and that the show overlooks mistakes she makes, and by pointing out those mistakes on her behalf is not me hating on her. Overall, I think she deserves better than what she is given both in the show and fandom.

First things first, Robin didn't jump into the water for Nancy. It was a delayed response after seeing her best friend being dragged under water. She's not as brave as Nancy. If we would apply the same logic, then Eddie would have jumped for Robin because he's in love with her. So no Robin jumped for Steve and should have been the first to do so, but because that scene was used for Stancy later (Eddie giving the speech to Steve in the woods) it had to be Nancy in that instance. It's really bothering me that this scene is so misread because people just don't get Robin's character. Who would you jump for, your best friend you know better than yourself or the girl you met a day ago?

The whole premise of Ronance (platonic or romantic) in s4 was so ooc for Robin, s3 Robin would have never acted the way like s4 Robin did. And I think that has something to do with what I said in the other post. We don't have enough time. There is no conflict when different groups of people come together because the show needs everyone to get along to save the world, and they couldn't elaborate on complex feelings a person might have towards others. So the show made Robin throw herself at Nancy's feet, despite thinking not too highly about her a season prior. Same with Steddie, the OG script was about how Steve and Eddie didn't get along first but it was cut out because there is no time to proper develop new relationships, even tho it would be more interesting. But again, that would mean the show would have to give us more episodes, which is unfortunately not the case.

So you see, I just don't think Robin would have acted the way she did around Nancy based on the character traits she displayed in s3. Furthermore, I will bring up Steve, which is a sensitive topic when it comes to Ronance. I don't want to come off as someone who in general makes a lesbian/sapphic relationship about a man's feelings, however because Steve has history with both girls I can't ignore him because Robin wouldn't either.

A little bit of background of Robin prior to meeting Nancy:

In s3, Robin couldn't stand Steve, and later, we found out why. It had mostly to do with her crush, Tammy Thompson, who had only eyes for him. Yeah, he was obnoxious, and Robin couldn't stand his smugness and arrogance, but the main reason was Tammy and her being kinda jealous of Steve in general because he had no problems fitting in. So she held on to this grudge against Steve for maybe even years. That tells us she doesn't forget when someone has wronged her and maybe, to an extent, her friends. Like she seems to be a person who has your back, no matter what.

Idk if you consider Rebel Robin as canon (I mean Maya narrated the podcast soo I mostly view it that way) but before Barb was Nancy's bff, she was close with Robin and later ditched her for Nancy. That in itself would leave a bad taste in Robin's mouth, and I guess she wouldn't be Nancy's biggest fan. Maybe that's why the priss comment in s3. Again, she had no problem disliking Steve because her crush liked him, but then she does an 180 with Nancy despite Barb being her actual friend leaving her for Nancy. Losing a friend to another person is much worse than a crush you never talked to, not liking you back or liking someone else.

But even if you ignore the Barb stuff and don't think it's canon, Robin still wouldn't be Nancy's biggest fan in the beginning and that has something to do with how Stancy ended and Jancy begun. You have to keep in mind Steve is Robin's bff, one if not the most important person in her life. He's everything to her she trusts him completely. He was maybe even the first person to know she was gay. Then why on earth would Robin A try to befriend Nancy, who broke his heart, and B trying to push her without a thought to get together with him again. It doesn't make any sense to me, based on how Robin was introduced.

Steve may have not any hard feelings for Nancy, maybe he only said positive things about her to Robin because he still views himself as the only person who fucked up in that relationship and not that Nancy was already in love with Jonathan for a while before things ended. Idk where you stand on the whole cheating thing, but it doesn't matter because rumors outside of the relationship would spread. Steve, the most popular guy in school, who is well liked, got left by his girlfriend of 1 year for the school freak, not even 2 days after a public fight. Like people would go crazy and Robin would have heard those rumors as well. You have to admit getting together with a new guy, not even after 48h is, I don't want to say weird, but not very cool, okay? Plus, Tommy would spread extra nasty shit because he hates Nancy and Jonathan and wants to hurt Steve as well. Robin would view her through those rumors, plus Steve having a hard time letting go, being heartbroken about it, there is no doubt in my mind that she wouldn't side eye Nancy.

Those two reasons, Barb and how Stancy ended, are the main ones as to why I think Robin was ooc for desperately wanting to befriend Nancy.

So the way I would have built up Ronance would be Robin being aloof towards her, and Nancy would have been the one who wanted to befriend her in the first place. Nancy never has to work for her relationships with others. People usually make the first move with her, so she never has to give much thought to it. Like Steve still loves her, Jonathan was ready to follow her wherever even if it endangered his family, and Fred followed her around like a lost puppy as well. And with Robin, it could have gone differently. Nancy should have made it her mission to make it up to Robin. Like she desperately wants a friend, she doesn't understand why Robin is being cold to her. By making her the instigator, Nancy would have to reflect on her mistakes and how she treated people, which would finally give her some personal character growth. Plus, it would have made the introduction to Stancy (romantic or platonic) way smoother and more balanced because Nancy never reflected on it. Steve's just available she doesn't have to make it up to him as well. Nancy never really addresses her faults in relationships, and the narrative in Stranger Things lets her off the hook every time. Letting Steve believe he was a terrible boyfriend despite liking Jonathan instead of him? No problem, no consequences. Steve still likes her. In s3 the show was again on her side when she fought with Jonathan by giving her the Karen pep talk, yes she apologized to him but she didn't understand his struggles really because she gave him the don't ever doubt me comment which kinda destroyed her apology imo. Furthermore, as soon as there was a rough patch in s4 with Jonathan, she expected him to come to her instead of going to him and fixing it because she has the financial means to do so, which indicates she still doesn't fully understand Jonathan's financial problems. Also, in general, Jonathan is terrified to tell her the truth, so he gets high to cope. It doesn't seem that he thinks Nancy is understanding.

Again, Robin could have been the person that would have made her realize wait, the way I take people for granted, and sometimes treat is wrong. Instead, we got yet another person instantly liking her and going along with everything she does, so Nancy never had to do anything for it, despite the obvious conflicts that should have arisen when they first met. But like I said before, the show doesn't have much time and focuses more on the plot, so there is no real development for characters, and everyone has to get along. I also think Stranger Things wanted a strong girl duo like Elmax, so they just threw Ronance together without conflict because they wanted to avoid drama, which would take up too much screentime. I can't emphasize the fact that Stranger Things suffers so much because it has too much plot and not enough time. Plus, I believe making Robin angry at Nancy on Steve's behalf would mean acknowledging that Stancy ended in a bad way or that Jancy maybe didn't have this cute start as a romance, but that would also mean recognizing Steve might have not been the only one who was wrong which is simply not possible. When s2 aired and people pointed out hey did Nancy cheat on Steve, did they really break up because a lot of people didn't view the fight in the ally as a break, especially because Nancy mentions she likes Steve at Murray's and Steve went to her house, the Duffers had to confirm it via interviews because I doubt they thought people would sympathize with Steve. Hence, why the narrative only blames him because they wanted the audience root for Jancy.

Long story short, I would have switched roles for platonic Ronance in the show. When it comes to romantic Ronance, that's mostly on the fandom. Everyone is allowed to ship whatever, I personally just don't think they are a good match. I don't see Nancy being patient enough with Robin's neurodivergent ways. She wouldn't handle her rambling over time very well. Nancy gets quickly irrated and snaps. Like Robin already felt the need to explain herself to her, making sure everything is okay because Nancy made her feel like her personality is too much and has faults, like her mom constantly tells her. Whereas with Vickie, she felt immediately at ease when they talked. More of that later. Robin is also poor, maybe a bit better off than Jonathan, but still, Nancy already doesn't get Jonathan's problems. Another reason is that because Steve is Robin's bff, Robin wouldn't want to date her all together. Like she sees Steve still likes her, she knows how much Nancy hurt him to a point that he is serial dating because he has like trust issues, that would immediately turn her off. Robin values Steve's friendship way too much than try to jeopardize it in any way. It's not like Steve wouldn't allow her to date Nancy, I think he would do everything to make Robin happy even if it costs his own happiness. Robin knows Steve. She would know that he would be hurt, and that's ultimately the factor that turns her off. Maya already confirmed that Robin values platonic relationships so much, so yeah. Just think about it that way. How would Robin feel if Steve suddenly would show interest in Vickie and starts dating her? That would be kinda fucked, same goes for Ronance, Robin knows Steve still likes her. I'm also a believer that you shouldn't necessarily date your bffs ex, it's just too messy especially if that relationship ended rather badly.

@findafight had this amazing post about one-sided Ronance, where they described exactly what I'm trying to convey. Nancy is the one interested, but ultimately, Robin declines because of her relationship to Steve. They also have several other posts about Ronance if you want to check it out. Another blog that discusses Ronance and has similar opinions is @thestobingirlie

What I dislike the most is that in Ronance, mostly Robin is only an ounce of her typical character. Her relationship with Steve is downplayed. She makes fun of him with Nancy, she lies to him about her relationship, even asks for sex advice in some fics which is just very weird and so ooc for her to do. Same goes for Steddie, as soon as either Steve or Robin go into a relationship both characters are so ooc, you almost don't recognize them, plus they only have time for their partners and their friendship gets sidelined, which again doesn't make sense for their characters. Ronance is also mostly beneficial to Nancy as it's viewed more how Robin can save her so she doesn't have to end up with a man. Hence, all the posts about how Robin is the only person who gets her, which is also such a shitty thing to say because both Jonathan and Steve were trying. Like Nancy's character development hinges more on her relationship with Robin than doing some soul-searching. Because for real, all her relationships so far are kinda meh because she doesn't know how to communicate properly with her partners, Robin wouldn't magically make everything better because she's a girl. Nancy needs to be single first and discover who she is without jumping in a new relationship. She needs therapy and has to work on her people skills to be a better partner for future relationships.

Also, so many people want Nancy to have a friend, and when Robin comes along, they immediately make it romantic. Robin can still be there for Nancy and understand her as a friend. I don't think she was romantically interested in Nancy in the show. She was actively pushing for Stancy. She only ever talked about being into Vickie romantically. Robin should be allowed to make a friend who is a girl without making it into a romance just because she is a lesbian. Lesbians can have platonic girl friends, lol. Fact is that so many see Robin interacting with a girl as romantic because she is looking at her and then ignore her real crush she talks about all the time.

Now to Rovickie and Vickie. What I meant with people not giving Vickie a chance because she's a girl and interested in a sapphic relationship is a common occurrence throughout fandoms in general. Guys are usually preferred when talking about characters or shipping. Girls have it so much harder. Like with Gareth, I don't think my comparison of him and Vickie was nonsensical or dumb. The fandom had no problems coming up with interesting headcanons for him, even outside the crackship. Almost all the hellfire boys, but especially Gareth because he's the most objectively attractive one of the group, got more love from the fandom. Vickie, on the other hand, is mostly used as the villain in Ronance fics, who is in the way of the main ship. People in general call her boring or too similar to Robin, which is insane because we have one scene where she rambles because she is talking to her potential crush. Also, being similar doesn't have to mean it's bad. Like I mentioned earlier, Vickie rambling is showing Robin it's okay to do so, which makes her feel immediately relaxed because she doesn't have to explain herself to Vickie. Not to mention the biphobia that runs through fandoms. The fact that Vickie had a boyfriend, who she broke up with, was enough. People usually headcanon Nancy as a lesbian than making her bi. Steve's only a bi icon when he's shipped with guys, like him dating a girl is seen as less valued or popular. Again, everyone can headcanon characters sexuality how they like, you do you it's just apparent that characters who are seen as bi are only celebrated for dating a person of the same sex.

Lastly, think about it if Vickie was a guy who was the love interest for Steve, there would be non-stop content for her. She would be well loved within the fandom. But Vickie is a girl, and if she were used as the love interest for Steve instead of Robin, she would also face the same scrutiny the already faces now. She's the villain in the way of ships because she's only a side character and not the full meal like you described. A male characters even with almost no screentime, will always get better treatment than female characters.

[piperslovebot]

Making you choose...but only if you want to :)

Derena or Serenate? (I know you don't ship either, but I'm curious which you dislike less! Don't let the fact that I'm weirdly obsessed with Serenate influence your choice, lol)

In real life, would you rather spend a week with Serena or with Blair?

Overall, do you prefer seasons 1-3 of Gossip Girl or seasons 4-6?

Folklore or Evermore?

Midnights or Reputation? (Love that you're a fellow Swiftie!)

1. Serenate. Like I’ve said, I don’t dislike them. It’s just not my thing but I do think them being endgame would make more sense. Especially given lines like “Serena deserves to be with someone who’d sacrifice anything for her.” and “Even if I end up with Dan, a part of me will always love Nate.” Not to mention, the parallels with Barchie (a ship I love.) Derena post season two is them being a dead horse. Not to mention Dan saying he never stopped loving Serena was so ooc because he spent half the season trying to get back with her. Not to mention he was in love with Blair since arguably season 4. Plus their parents were together (and had a WAY more interesting and complex relationship might I add) and had a child together.

2. Neither. I love both characters but in real life, I wouldn’t be friends with either. I’d probably wanna fight them (especially Blair) But in the realm of fiction, S.

3. I only watched parts of season 4-6 and all of seasons 1-2 and part of season three. But I pick the first two. Especially season 2 tho.

4. Folklore. Evermore is not that memorable to me.

5. Reputation. I didn’t finish midnights and it kinda took me some time to warm up to it. Love the anti hero music vid tho. And ty<3

[cutemeat]

Speaking of taking it to 11, I'm glad Glenn stood up for not throwing away stereotypes entirely just to be subversive. Ofc it's valuable that Mac's not a gay man stereotype, but as a queer Asian who fits stereotypes, it's sad when tv goes TOTALLY in the opposite direction because they're worried they'll "do a stereotype" (obv there's good, nuanced and bad, harmful versions). There's proud defiance in leaning in sometimes. Do you think RCG worry about "bi Dennis" bc of evil bi stereotypes?

YES, i totally agree!! And it makes perfect sense that he feels that way, cuz Dennis does tend to embody a lot of common queer stereotypes from s1 all the way to s15... Way moreso than Mac ever has, imo. But its not so much that he felt like a plain caricature of those stereotypes (though obviously im not gonna act like in a lot of moments he's not being played up that way lol... 'boys are out tonight huh!?' but even Glenn admitted that was something he didn't want to be included in the episode as his character cuz it was "too broad" LMAO). He still feels like a character that has depth and is well-rounded, including those 'stereotypical' queer traits. So even before Glenn outright said that, it did feel like he had that mentality and I think that's also probably something that's gotten better with maturity lollll. But I was also rlly glad to hear him outright say that too, cuz it is, as you said, commonplace now for writers to keep trying to be "subversive" of stereotypes but that can backfire horribly and just make a lot of characters feel flat or inauthentic. So yeah it was rlly nice to hear that, and esp on the podcast which gets a lot of viewers.

And I do think that RCG are aware that there is a line they have to be be mindful of when it comes to how these characters' overall deviant nature might be perceived as being related to their queerness... Esp in the case of Dennis, and Mac as well. I think this concern was actually somewhat acknowledged in "The Janitor Always Mops Twice" (and tbh I'm surprised I haven't seen more analysis on this?? tho it definitely could've come up and just been purged at some point as a lot of s14 shit ended up being loll) because the way that episode framed not only Dennis, but Mac too, to fit into the "queer-coded villains" noir trope was--again, imo-- an acknowledgment of that. Like, they see the history of that trope in tv/film and how reductive it is. I think that the narrative is deeming that kind of characterization reductive because that episode is not told thru an objective POV, but it's filtered through Charlie's POV, and he clearly has some uh... complex feelings about his best friends' relationship and their respectively ambiguous and not-so-ambiguous sexualities LOL. But also in the past whenever a scene was through Charlie's POV (i.e. his flashback sequence in "Who Got Dee Pregnant?") it's been shown that he has pretty reductive views of the people in his life. Typically narrowing them down to a few traits, or saying shit that is very uh "ooc" (i.e. "yeah. dee inspired me. she said, "you're an awesome janitor, charlie. you can make this whole school slippery." I said, "sure, I'll give it my best shot." then she's, like, "let's be best friends." and I was, like, "sure, I'll give that my best shot, too." so we're best friends now.)... so... yeah. Plus, when you compare that episode's framing to the rest of s14 and that season's overall "oh god we're so afraid of fucking this all up" subtext (Thunder Gun 4, Right to Chop, Big Mo, etc.)... I definitely do think that's definitely a concern of theirs when it comes to that aspect of Dennis' writing as well LOL. and I think even they even sorta admitted to that dragging their feet on addressing Dennis' sexuality/his relationship with Mac as it has been the past couple of seasons in the s15 finale in a very on-the-nose way... ("oh, my god. It looks like he was dragging his feet back here. were you hanging on it?") lmaooo..

[stanfordsweater]

@aftershocked

moving this here because you’ve brought up a TON of points i’d love to dig into and the tumblr reply system is garbage--

(under the cut: much talk of possessive sam vs. possessive dean, benefits of a long-running series, ooc actions vs. consistent characterization)

“they change a lot over 15 seasons but it's consistent enough” i feel like differences and inconsistencies in episodes/writing/seasons are one of the reasons (besides personal preference) that ppl get twisted around when it comes to possessive sam and possessive dean, like it’s easy to focus on one or two things w/o taking larger patterns or predominant characteristics into account.

also it’s easy to focus on like, smth happening a few times that is in contradiction to something that happened many other times, & not want to Deal with the complexities & contradictions—but the complexities are the best part! i’ve seen you talk about it before too, the benefits of a longrunning series where we get to really watch the characters grow from young men to essentially middle-aged,

you get to actually have characters w the kind of multifaceted personalities you’d expect of, like, normal people (just way more fucked up and traumatized). so yeah, dean isn’t always straightforward in the way he’s content with keeping sam with him, and can dip into weird behavior (ESPECIALLY in the sort of parental “i make the decisions around here” sense)—

but his general preference, his base character, does not lean towards possessiveness at all. versus sam, who SEEMS like he’d be more grounded and chill, but is actually the crazy jealous guy. that kind of irony, those kind of subversions, are what make them enjoyable as characters and contribute to why possessive sam is so much fun to explore,

bc you Wouldn’t think he’d be the one who’s jealous enough that even when dean gives sam so much of himself already, sam still wants more. you’d look at him and expect him to be the brother capable of letting go, of being halfway normal, instead of like, sam’s built so much on seeking dean’s approval and lived his life at the center of dean’s universe,

so he’ll reject anything that threatens to change that dynamic. like the contradictions are weird and spicy and i like them a lot and god i love sam’s reactions to benny so much. i’d feel bad bc i really like benny & he deserved better, but it’s too much fun to see how much sam of all people unreasonably, irrationally, illogically hates the guy,

just because he represents someone dean might, might, might possibly actually like more than sam (even though we, the viewers, know that’s impossible). beautiful

--

yes, you’ve hit on so many great points here! firstly, the inconsistencies in characterization: i think it’s very easy to see why people get annoyed by the writing, and i do think it’s occasionally justified; however, i’ve always found it a lot more rewarding to think about it as the same kind of inconsistencies that real people have! sam and dean might make “ooc” decisions and it’s okay because real people do that too, out of anger, resentment, sadness, trauma... it makes sense, to me, that they aren’t the same people they were fifteen years ago. getting stuck in one ‘mode’ of characterization is damaging to an overall reading of the show, but at the same time it’s okay to latch onto one era if that’s what you enjoy. it only bothers me when people take characterization from one era (for example, dean’s ptsd, anger, and jealousy over amelia) and apply it to every version of that character.

dean’s parental sense of possession over sam is one thing i do agree with wrt the possessive dean takes, and i think they’re more memorable for a lot of people because they’re not what you usually see from a family show-- it’s weird for dean to feel that way, and i don’t know if i’ve ever seen that intersection of parental ownership and romantic partner jealousy. it’s important that this comes out when dean is under pressure, not all the time-- AND it’s essential that sam does not cave to this. it gets iffy during dabb era, but i still don’t see sam immediately caving to dean’s demands. a good example is the scene where dean holds a gun to sam in season 15, which i see fairly often as an example of dean demanding obedience from sam... but sam doesn’t cave! and sam doesn’t even flinch, because he’s used to having guns pointed at him, and he knows that no version of dean could ever kill him. dean knows this too, and dean is the one who caves, as per usual. this is only not the case a few times in canon, like season 4, parts of season 7, and season 9, all for different reasons i won’t get into now. it’s remarkable when dean doesn’t go along with what sam asks, which is why it sticks in people’s memories, imo. dean is very loud with what he wants and what he thinks is best, but if sam disagrees he will argue dean around to his point, or he’ll go behind dean’s back to do it anyway (case in point, season 11 with the cage.)

anyway-- “the complexities are the best part!” and “you get to actually have characters w the kind of multifaceted personalities you’d expect of, like, normal people (just way more fucked up and traumatized). so yeah, dean isn’t always straightforward...” TOTALLY AGREE. i love the times when the brothers are making decisions that fandom disagrees with, because it’s interesting. the show is here to provide a compelling story. i’m not going to lie and say i always agree with that story or those choices, but it’s fun for me to try to get into why a character would make that decision, not just rail against it. i like the dudes we have in canon! they’re fun!

this is why possessive sam slaps for me. what you said here-- “sam, who SEEMS like he’d be more grounded and chill, but is actually the crazy jealous guy. that kind of irony, those kind of subversions, are what make them enjoyable as characters and contribute to why possessive sam is so much fun to explore” yes yes yes. 100%. and we see these subversions right from season one! it’s not new that dean isn’t actually the uber-confident womanizing asshole, but if you aren’t paying attention it can sneak up on you, i guess? and sam, who comes across as the level-headed one in common archetypes, the soft-spoken college boy, crashes the impala into a building. in the first episode. and in route 666, he  follows a crazy instinct that is proven correct and saves their lives (because he’s intelligent!) but toys with the chance that it could have failed and killed dean (because he’s reckless!)

the fact that we have all these examples of the ways the brothers fail to fulfill the tropes they would in a less-interesting tv show means that possessive sam makes so much sense. sam is built up as the independent brother, the one who left home, the rebellious one, but he loves his family and he needs dean. he needs him. “sam’s built so much on seeking dean’s approval and lived his life at the center of dean’s universe...” i love the way you put this. sam has had dean’s attention and protection for most of his life, and hell if he’s giving it up now for some two-bit vampire, lol. sam is independent, but like with everything else, dean is the exception. sam’s desperation for dean’s approval and attention is absolutely hilarious in the benny situation, because, like you’ve said before, benny is the least-threatening dude ever. he’s so nice. and the fact that sam won’t rest until he dies is-- well, i’m being a little uncharitable, i don’t think sam wanted benny to die, but he sure didn’t shed any tears over it.

the contradictions are delicious. i do think some of it is that dean gets his friendships fulfilled outside of sam, so sam is in a category all his own, while sam doesn’t have as many relationships as dean does so dean is fills all of his categories. but then again, that isn’t always true. it shifts over the seasons and even through episodes. broad trends!

[septiembrre]

I'm a little late but I just saw your post from a year ago about latinx rep in good girls and its sad reflecting back on it and how the show could've done better. Rio was just another stereotype, I hate how he was ambitiously latino and there was just no connection to his culture. Was he first, 2nd, or 3rd Gen? If he was 1st Gen it didn't make sense to have the family speak English. One thing that always annoyed me is how OOC he was at times and how the writers purposely made him out to be like some brown aggressive misogynistic man. They didn't bother making him complex. In a way I'm glad the show got canceled. As a Mexican woman the way Rio was written was racist.

Wah, I’ve been sitting on answering your ask. I wanted to tease your ask apart and respond to it sentence by sentence. But... my brain kept rechazandolo, so now I have feelings dump instead.

Since Good Girls ended, I have been parsing through how I feel about S4 and GG overall — sometimes more positively, sometimes more negatively. Then, I flip to reminding myself it’s not that serious (it's just tv! this is supposed to be my leisure activity!). Then, I waffle back to reflecting.

So, no textual analysis just feels and whining under the cut. I know folks are still mourning the end of the show and I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. Tagging with #ggnegativity.

My short answer is that Good Girls is my beloved, sometimes joyful, sometimes hurtful, complicated little show. Even now that we’re no longer getting new episodes I’m wary of sifting through the information we have about Rio because it’s a mess and it seems like a lot of his character was poorly thought out (ahem, all those dumb messages from Bill Krebs confirming multiple instances of lack of intentionality or care!).

I say this because I was tempted to start responding to you by riffing off of your comment with, “y'know, now that you say that, I think he’s third or fourth gen…”, pero who cares? And the point was never specifically about what gen he is, or even more specifically about... lol, I was going to say it doesn't matter what nationality he was, they just needed to pick one. Ugh, but the wording of that is too glib. The lack of intentionality behind these details feels sanitized to me, it feels very white gaze, it feels lazy.

However, I could have forgiven a lot of this weak character construction if his baseline, plot-related characterization on-screen was more consistent. But, Rio was often used as a plot device in a way that often fell flat for me, a weekly recurring bogeyman whether his antagonism made sense or not. On one hand, I feel for the creative team, because I think they were in a hard place, trying to avoid romanticizing Rio, and trying to seemingly backtrack the sexualization of him in Season 2, but... Idk, it's complicated.

Retrospectively, it’s sitting with me how much Good Girls is rooted in whiteness. While it's something I discerned before (lol, most obviously with 2x13 and in S3 with Lucy's disposability), you know how some shows get to their third or fourth season and finally start investing in their marginalized characters? It’s a crappy thing to hold out hope for, they're crumbs! But, I was. And we did get some Rio worldbuilding. But, ultimately, it felt weak to me -- under-conceptualized or under-worked.

For example, I liked Nick as a Bigger Bad who drove Rio and Beth together. I also thought that Nick's non-existent moral code was a lovely foil to Rio's, and that this contrast humanized Rio in a way that he needed. It also cast a new light on Rio's behavior of the earlier seasons, outside of Beth's perception in a way that I thought was healthy and needed. Great, meaty stuff! However, Nick and Rio's relationship came across as shallow to me. There really did not seem to be a lived-in quality to their scenes. The show really struggled with that element overall -- even with the three lead protagonists (their decades-long history with each other and interactions between their families being largely absent). I wonder why they made that choice.

It's strange because on the flip side we got a hefty amount of contextualization for MLM guy Vance and Annie's bf Kevin... Even that cop who Mick killed! All white men, too.

Me da pena.

Or maybe the thing that bothers me is that those scenes between Nick and Rio didn't center Rio's perspective effectively? Despite the one-on-one scenes being outside of Beth's framing (Rio being a secondary character typically tethered to Beth's story arc), there still was a lot of distance between Rio and the viewer? Like I think of Vance in his kitchen with his wife and child, and the way we as viewers were brought into that to empathize with him, and I think of the distance of Nick+Rio boxing scene or the scenes at the bar. Argh! It's hard to pinpoint without the textual analysis I feel too grumpy to do. It was such a narrative choice to keep Rio aloof and I side-eye it.

Anyway --

Overall, the writing room/show creators/decision-makers didn't seem to consider Latine/x/a/o viewers throughout the crafting of Good Girls and that sucks. It really feels like I'm being told to conform to the white gaze in watching the show, and after 2x13 that makes me feel prickly and defensive. A part of me yearns to do a rewatch to map Rio’s character (and inconsistencies) but I still yield joy from Good Girls — it’s been my main comfort story during the pandemic. I also rendered joy from Season 4 specifically — some of those scenes between the leads at the end were phenom!!

I am leaning into what's bringing me joy right now, so I feel hesitant to stew in critique, even while I also feel some sort of need to make sense of the hurtful racializations. I have a compulsion to write them all down on the same post or list -- somewhere where I can see them all at once and understand. But, at the moment, it’s not a use of my time and energy that feels good. Opting into fics and writing is bringing me a lot of joy during hard times.

I have to close with one final whine, that I am SO fatigued with television options right now. I find myself desperately wishing for more TV out there whose priority audience isn't only white folks. Good Girls isn't alone in its treatment of Latinx characters, or alone in mishandling characters of color or gay characters, or prioritization of empathy for white het male characters, but certainly, creating something more thoughtful shouldn't be so hard.

[takaraphoenix]

spuffy for the ask game since you have a spuffy story coming up on your schedule?

Yes, yes I do! And sure can do! ^-^

I love Spuffy. It has been one of my absolute favorite ships from all fandoms for many years, but ever since I also read the comic continuation, I gotta say, Spuffy is the favorite ship. The most beloved of all ships I've ever sailed.

They are the embodiment of hero/villain enemies turned lovers.

And they have my favorite m/f dynamic; he's full of snark and bastard energy, but oh is he soft for her.

And they also have that thing that makes me love ships the most; it's a ship between my two favorite characters from that franchise. If a ship unites my two faves, it just instantly gains more of my love, because it means I get them both, at the same time, happy, with each other.

I love the way their dynamic slowly changes over the seasons.

I have a soft spot for early bastard secondary villain Spike, he is hilarious and Buffy's annoyance with him is delightful.

And then he has his literal oh moment of realizing he's into Buffy and he doesn't know how to handle it and he handles it in the whackiest, weirdest way possible. I mean, role playing with Harm? Having Warren build a sex bot? The incredibly awkard stalking?

But things get more serious and less of a comic relief "look at that poor bastard" when Spike becomes one of the people Buffy trusts. One of the people she trusts the most, I'd say, considering she leaves her mother and her sister with him, repeatedly.

Season 5 is such a good Spuffy season in that Spike becomes a Scooby by sheer force of will. Somewhere in my mind still lives an alternate spin where the Scoobies do escape Glory in their RV and just... have a merry roadtrip with each other.

And sure, it's easy to dismiss Spike - easy for Buffy and the other characters. Because he's a vampire, and not a fancy one with a soul like Angel. He might lust for Buffy, but it can't be love, right.

But, and that's what makes me love this ship so much, it is love, even without a soul. (It's also what makes me love Spike so much, because he is such a complex character with so much growth who was already so much more than just a vampire even without his soul.)

Him bringing flowers after Joyce died, not to somehow score points with Buffy, but because he genuinely liked Joyce and they had genuinely bonded with each other. Because he mourns, even without a soul.

And, the biggest evidence as to him genuinely loving her - he stays, when Buffy dies.

If it were all misplaces lust that he blows out of proportion, he wouldn't have stayed. Buffy was dead and since Willow, Tara and Xander didn't tell him about wanting to resurrect her, he had no reason to stay, no reason to believe she would ever be back.

But he stayed in Sunnydale. And not just to mourn and get drunked and fucked up, the way he did when Dru dumped him.

He was a Scooby. For months, he worked with them to protect Sunnydale, to fight demons, to help raise Dawn. He took on so much responsibility and for the first time truly became a hero, a good guy. He fought for the good cause, not to impress Buffy and score points with her, not out of any misplaced reasons. Solely because she was gone and he wanted to honor her legacy, he wanted to do what she would do if she were still there, he wanted to protect those she had died to protect.

I have a very complicated relationship to season 6's Spuffy. It's very self-destructive, on both parts. She's only using him, he becomes her bad coping mechanism with being brought back to life. And he knows that, but he can't stay away. Personally, I think all of Seeing Red was a huge mistake and especially after the build-up of what they had Spike do for Buffy so far without a soul, it... it felt like a whole different writer with entirely different ideas just grabbed the script and hijacked it at that point, to be quite frank. I do think that at that point in how Spike's character was established, it was OoC. Even if you try to argue that their relationship had already been a mess of mixed signals, with "I hate you, you disgust me" being followed by mindblowing sex, I still think that this was pushing things too far.

But it brought us Spike going to get his soul, so I digress.

And then comes season 7 and season 7 is just peak Spuffy. Season 7 is my happy place. Gods. The way Buffy cares for him, the way she protects him, from the others, from the First, from himself. The way she stands up for him. How she keeps choosing him.

The way they banter and raise "the children" together once he feels better.

And when everyone in an act of being incredibly, impossibly, forcibly OoC just turns their back on Buffy and also stabs hers, repeatedly, he is still there. He tells them off the way I was yelling at my screen too and then he found her and comforted her and simply held her.

And then he died. Not for her, but because he actually was a hero. And it wrecked me. (The best thing AtS ever did was bring Spike back to live, imo.)

Let's skip season 8 to the end, where he comes in as the knight in shining armor, having done his research on how to stop the apocalypse unfolding once again and how, even though she had just hooked up with Angel, she immediately starts fantasizing about Spike as soon as he's in the room? I swear, season 8 is a freaking mess.

But season 9... really hurts. That she'd come to him, of all the people she knows and loves, she comes to him when she doesn't know how to keep going, when she considers running away and raising a child, being a family. He is the person she thinks about. And he is the person she comes to for back-up when she decides to have an abortion. Whether she goes to a happy place or a dark place, in both scenarios she chose him over everyone else, to have him at her side.

And season 10 finally gives us the canon romantic relationship between them. Finally, they actually get together and it is so good. The way they communicate with each other, the way she reassures him that she chose him and no one's going to come between them, tells him that he is a good man and also finds for herself that she is not just happy in this relationship, she also finds that she loves herself more, she likes the person she is when she is with him (she literally says that).

Buffy has a freaking mind-journey, traveling into Spike's mind and seeing and feeling just how much he loves her, how regardless of what else is going on, he loves her.

They are... They are everything I always dreamed they could be in a real relationship - they have their problems, but they talk them through, they reassure and support each other, they're domestic and cute, they make each other better, not by changing the other but by supporting the other and giving each other the chance to be their best self.

When they actually are in a real relationship, neither of them is jealous. And both have shown in the past to be prone to jealousy. But when Buffy tells Spike that Angel is her past and that he is her present, he accepts that and he doesn't feel the need to be a jackass around Angel. And when Spike tells Buffy about his could-have-been Dylan, Buffy doesn't get jealous over her, no, she decides they should go to Dylan's art-show and she gets along splendidly with her.

Season 11 is an overall rough ride, I mean, they are literally locked inside an internment camp for nearly the whole season. But the Spuffy keeps you going, because they are so strong together, they make this work, together.

The season ends with them kissing, with Buffy saying "I love you" for the very first time and all Scoobies being together and it's... the picture-perfect ending to Buffy the Vampire Slayer that I could have ever imagined.

(There is no season 12 in my mind. That was Fray-centric garbage that did a disservice to Buffy as a character.)

Send me a ship and I will explain why I do or don't ship it

[n3s0]

hi i’m going to discuss the doomsday war streams and overall the conclusion of what i’d consider season 3 of the dream smp because hyperfixation go brrrrr 

(for clarity sake: season 1 is from when l’manberg defects from the dream smp to when wilbur decides to host an election. season 2 is from swag2020 vs pog2020 to the manberg vs pogtopia war on nov 16th. season 3 is from the start of tubbo’s presidency to the jan 6th doomsday war.) 

tldr: i definitely think the cc’s can look on what happened this season and improve greatly. that’s not to say this wasn’t a good season, there are a lot of things they’ve improved since season 1, but there are also things they can improve on in the future. this season was lacking a connecting thread or goal and it made it feel disjointed and left character’s in limbo. a way to fix that could be either scripting the story more strictly, fixing communication problems and/or making the plot into more self contained but slightly overlapping stories.

i think my biggest problem with this season was the fact that it felt so disjointed. one of the best things about the first season is the consistent plot line: l’manberg is trying to win independence. you had eret’s betrayal, dream’s tyranny, wilbur and tommy’s whole dynamic, and an underlying subplot with the disc war, but it all ultimately connected to l’manberg’s fight for independence. it’s what makes the first season so good and that kind of consistent plot is missing in this season. 

even the second season had the main plot of taking back manberg. there was wilbur’s insanity, but that tied back to the elections. there was tension between tubbo and tommy, but it tied back to the elections. even the badlands tied back to bad, ant, skeppy, and sam deciding they’re done with manberg AND pogtopia and deciding to stoke the fire. it all tied back and character’s had weeks to slowly develop with the setting. 

this season you had techno retiring, ghostbur reconciling with fundy, tubbo’s presidency, whatever was going on with schlatt and quackity?, george is king?, el rapid mexican l’manberg that whole thing, tommy’s exile, el rapids fighting dream smp/eret’s kingship?, the butcher army, techno UNretiring and teaming with tommy, tommy using techno to get his discs back, techno using tommy to destroy l’manberg, the prison, the bloodvines, and probably more im forgetting. there was a LOT going on, even techno and wilbur have ooc acknowledged this. and in my opinion it was just too much. character’s weren’t given enough time to develop naturally and the pacing had to go fast enough to fit all the plot into it, leaving little time for the character’s relationships to develop with the plot. 

most notably this is a problem with character’s like niki, fundy, ranboo (though not too bad with his character) and eret. eret had worked hard on a redemption arc and then had to go back to being king because george didn’t want to be involved (then changed his mind which...okay) which really fucked up all of the development he spent a LOT of time on during the second season. niki had to jump from siding with tubbo and tommy against wilbur’s insanity to suddenly tubbo’s president and her character just...can’t know that wilbur is dead for some reason? and now she needs content so she has to scrap together an anti-hero plot for herself. fundy’s works a little better i feel, with his lowkey insanity arc he’s having as of now, but the problem with him is he didn’t get enough lowkey plot moments to show his character’s devolution from neglected to vengeful. ranboo was thrown head first into the plot and while he’s doing an AMAZING job of keeping himself afloat, he just hasn’t had enough time to make his character’s mental decline seem believable, at least to me. not enought has happened to his character for it to work out, due to pacing. all of these character’s are AMAZING concepts but the fact that they feel so inconsistent can be related back to the fact that there really wasn’t any time given to let character’s slowly develop and change, and instead they had to cram all of their character development into the first 30 mins of a plot important stream.

and i will offer a counterargument here of the fact that season 3 is when wilbur’s writing stopped and also was when it really started catching a large audiences’ interest. so naturally more people wanted to be involved and due to the nature of the way this story is told, where each character is an actual CC who needs content and can’t just be a background support character, there HAS to be a lot going on for everyone to get their slice. and i think that’s the ultimate downfall of using this medium to tell a story. you NEED those background characters, the characters that don’t have to be 3 dimensional, the characters that don’t need to be there for everything and get their lines in. so i can’t fault them for having a clunky story when it has to be that way to be fair. 

ultimately i still really enjoy the story, and i hope this doesn’t sound too nitpicky. it’s downfall, of everyone having to be an important character, is also what makes it so good! don’t like the “main character”? go watch someone else, who’s the main character of their own POV of the story. every single character is incredibly complex and has their own unique set of motivations, goals, and traits. it works really well with the running theme of history, and how not only does it repeat itself through miscommunication and ignorance but also how the opinion on events changes from who’s telling the story. the fact that you can tell every CC genuinely cares about their character also really does show in the acting and writing and just everything about the server and story. the flaws of the story are very easy to look over because of just how much time and care all of them put into this server and it really helps the story. an okay story written by passionate people with always be better than an amazing one written by apathetic storywriters; and the smp’s story is definitely more than just okay, at least to me. 

i didn’t want to write this just to complain and then offer no solution, so i do have a few ideas on how i’d like to see this fixed or at least improved. they actually already somewhat do this, but i feel like they could start breaking up the plot more. similarly to how there was the bloodvines plot going on at the same time as tommy’s exile plot, i feel like they could take a chunk of say 5-10 members and they each have their semi-contained plot. especially with l’manberg now destroyed, the thing that way tying a lot of the members together, it would be easier to do this. there can be connecting threads through the stories, like how tubbo and fundy would see the bloodvines or bad would visit tommy in exile, but ultimately not every character has to be involved in everyone else’s story. 

say you have tubbo, tommy, quackity, fundy, ghostbur, and dream for one plot of trying to get the discs back and making dream revive ghostbur. at the same time you can have techno, phil, ranboo, dream, and sam dealing with the prison and techno or someone being put in the prison with dream manipulating ranboo through his memories. bad, ant, sam, puffy, and skeppy can continue with the egg. eret, fundy, niki, and ghostbur work through the trauma they’ve gained from everything with l’manberg and their interpersonal relationships. similarly to how karl is doing the tales of the SMP right now, these storylines are self contained but characters can overlap and therefore so can relationships. 

my other solution would honestly be to just work on the seemingly lack of communication. make sure everyone is getting the content they need (with people having to understand that not everyone is going to get the animatic worthy lines every stream, and not everyone gets to play a huge part in each event.) however this entails having a much more concrete script, which highkey removes the charm of the smp. it also means that inevitably someone is going to not be getting good content, or content at all, and that’s not fun or good for anyone. ultimately i’d like to see an improvement on the communication for the plot (niki feeling excluded, george and eret not being told about important events, communicating when people are trying to have genuine canon important speeches and not BMing them (cough cough tubbo at niki about her taxes cough cough techno during tubbo and tommys reunion)) and that doesn’t necessarily have to mean a fully fleshed out script. 

in the end, what everyone on this server has managed to do with this storyline is something that’s genuinely impacted me! it’s opened my eyes to new ways stories can be told and this fandom is the first big one i’ve been in since probably fucking voltron or homestuck in the mid-2010s. i love what the CCs have managed to do, and while i think this was a healthy amount of criticism for the story i in no way want to demean just how much passion and effort the CCs put into this server. none of these people are professional story writers or actors so the amount of talent we’ve seen is astonishing. this is simply me expressing what i think the problems are, because every story has problems, especially one that’s being made with such a unique medium like improv roleplay streaming. if you have anything you wanna add please feel free to add to this post or reply! i’d love to see :) thank you for reading if you made it this far lmao

[zeppelin-and-unicorns]

A Donna Pinciotti character study (and how I write her on my stories)

I'm apologizing in advance, this is too big, I talk a lot.

Someone sent me an ask a week ago asking why I write Donna as a nice character, and that inspired me to make a specific post about my thoughts on the characters and how I choose to write them on my published stories, more specifically, in Rock You Like a Hurricane and When The Levee Breaks. So here we go.

I love all the main 6 characters, not equally, everyone has a favorite, but in the end, they all have a very special place in my heart.

Out of the six characters, Jackie and Eric are my favorites. I have trouble writing Eric, but I really love him, I don’t get why he gets so much hate, he’s such a good person. They are followed very closely by Hyde, I relate to Hyde a lot, and honestly I love writing him. I think Hyde and Jackie are deep characters, with lots and lots of layers, and I love exploring them.

They are all complex characters with distinct personalities, each one has their specific storyline, and they all have their little quirks. They are not perfect, they have defects and qualities just like any other human being.

This post is about Donna, but I plan on making separate posts for each character later. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts.

Let's start off, shall we?

Donna was my favorite character, until I started season 4. One of the things that bothered me the most on the show was how much Donna's character regressed after her first break up with Eric.

Donna is a very likeable character in the earlier seasons, she's independent, determined, passionate about the things she loves, cares deeply about her friends, among other things. What I particularly loved the most about Donna, was how progressive she was for a teenage girl living in the 70s.

She and Eric were a sweet couple, and their love was pure. Their break up at the end of season 3 was heartbreaking, but it was very in character for me. Donna always wanted to be a strong, independent woman, and Eric was trying to tie her down. And while I could understand Eric's reasons, Donna also had a pretty strong point. I do believe things could have been solved with proper communication, but they were teenagers and these things happen.

After their breakup, both Donna and Eric acted immature, but after Donna's mom left, she... well, she's changed. And not for better. There's this one episode from season 4 that really upsets me. Right after Midge left, Donna slept with Eric, and Eric was really happy afterwards, he thought they were back together, but Donna had absolutely no intention of getting back together with him, in fact, she said "she would've done it with anyone". She used Eric in that episode, she should’ve been clear to him about her intentions, I get that her mom left and that she was sad, but that was kind of cruel of her and I felt really bad for Eric.

That's one of Donna's flaws: whenever she's going through something, she becomes this selfish person, too wrapped up in herself to focus on anyone else's problems. She refuses help and she acts up, showing really self-destructive behaviors (like purposely failing school, smoking cigarettes, dating Casey Kelso, etc). Donna’s kind of a hypocrite, she doesn’t like when people tell her she’s wrong about something. She also doesn't care about anyone other than herself when she's angry or sad, a clear example of that was running away to California with her best friend's boyfriend, because she was feeling humiliated about being rejected by Eric. That was a pretty shitty thing to do, Jackie did not deserve that.

In fact, Jackie did not deserve many of the things Donna did to her, but to me, Donna’s worst offence was to side up with Kelso during all the times he was an asshole to Jackie (yes, that includes when Jackie started to date Hyde).

As a self-proclaimed feminist, Donna should’ve been more empathetic towards Jackie. She should’ve told Jackie about Kelso and Laurie, she should have discouraged Jackie to get back together with Kelso on season 3 (everyone knew how toxic they were, even Hyde tried to stop them from getting together again in his own way - by breaking that egg - but Donna actually encouraged Kelso and seemed rather amused with the situation), she shouldn’t have shown her boobs to her best friend’s boyfriend on episode 4x20, she shouldn’t have ran away with her best friend’s boyfriend without even thinking about Jackie’s feelings, she should’ve supported Hyde and Jackie’s relationship from the beginning, she should’ve called Kelso out on his hypocrisy towards Jackie and Hyde on season 5, she should’ve been there for Jackie - without judging her - when her mother came back. She should have been a better friend to Jackie in general, Jackie was bitchy and kind of annoying, but she was a good person, and she was always there for Donna when she needed it.

Jackie was supposed to be the bitchy one with a huge ego, but Donna slowly took her crown. To me, in later seasons, Donna was worse than Jackie from season one - season one Jackie was a bitch, but she was also innocent, and she didn't know better, Donna did, and she loved calling Jackie out on her behavior. I'll elaborate more on that when I write Jackie’s essay. 

And (I’m afraid people are going to judge me for this one) Donna should’ve been a better girlfriend to Eric. People always say that Donna was too good for Eric, and well... I disagree.

In the first three seasons, Donna and Eric’s relationship was healthy, they were cute together, and you could see how much they loved each other. But they got back together in California and didn't even talk about why they broke up in the first place. They just ignored it and pretended it never happened. Like, wtf? And then out of nowhere Eric proposes and she says yes? She hadn't accepted his promise ring less than a year before, and now she accepted an engagement ring? I’m sorry, but that was very OOC to me. The reason why they broke up was that she didn’t want to make such a big promise because they were sill young, and then they just get engaged when they’re still in high school? That’s bad writing to me.

Their relationship in season 5 was okay, their engagement didn’t make any sense, but overall, they treated each other well and were in love.

Then Red had his heart attack and Donna decided to postpone college so she could be with Eric. Another thing that didn’t make sense to me. Donna basically threw away her whole future in order to be with Eric in season 6 and 7, and they broke up in season 3 because she didn't want that for herself. It’s just… well, shitty writing.

After she stayed for Eric, their relationship changed, at least from what I could tell. And then all the episodes had the same storyline for Eric and Donna: Eric does something stupid, Donna overreacts, Eric spends the day kissing her ass to make up for it, in the end she forgives him and it’s always the same thing “Donna, I’m a dumbass, you’re too good for me, I’m sorry” and bla bla bla. It’s a freaking cycle, and it only gets worse after Eric leaves her at the altar.

Eric was a good person and a good boyfriend, he had his flaws, but overall, he was a decent guy, he shouldn’t feel inferior to Donna. She mocked him for liking the things he did (Star Wars, Styx, roller disco), and often acted like she was too good for him, a good girlfriend is supposed to support her boyfriend in whatever makes him happy, not force him to quit something because she thought it was too girly.

(For example, when Hyde was going to work at the muffler shop with Red, Jackie didn’t like that idea, but she supported him anyways, she said “If it makes you happy then, I’m happy”. Donna wasn’t very supportive of Eric’s choices, the roller disco thing is a great example, I mean, yeah, it was girly, but he liked it, so she should’ve supported him).

In my opinion, Donna and Eric’s relationship on seasons 6 and 7 wasn’t a healthy one.

I’m not even going to mention Donna’s actions on season 8. To me, they were unforgivable, that’s why I totally understand why people write her like a bitch on post season 8 stories. But hey, everyone was acting OOC in season 8, that’s why I tend to ignore its existence most of the time.

In Donna’s defense though... That was mainly bad writing. I believe that the real Donna would’ve been more empathetic towards Jackie, she would’ve called Kelso on his crap, and she would’ve actually talked to Eric about their problems. She also would have gone to college, she and Eric could make distance work.

Up until season 4 we could see that the writers were actually developing a storyline for Donna. She was bitchy in season 4, but her parents had just got divorced, she and Eric had broken up, her mom left... Her life changed a lot, it’s understandable why she acted out, the writers knew what they were doing then, at least in the character development part, but then season 5 started and Donna was a whole different person.

I don’t know if I’m making any sense in this essay, I have trouble expressing myself sometimes because english is not my first language, but basically, to me, the writers stopped caring about Donna’s character development by season 5 and I’ll always be bitter about that. 

A clear example of character development is Jackie, Kelso and Hyde. They grew and matured over the seasons, Donna didn’t, not really, if compared to them. It's incredibly sad to see most of the characters growing and genuinely being better people, while Donna was just… being there.

Donna had her good moments, as I’ve mentioned before, Donna has qualities, plenty of them by the way. She’s passionate about the things she loves, she wants the best for her friends, she’s determined, she has a kind heart.

One of my favorite scenes from the show is when Jackie asked Donna to help her not to fall into Kelso’s “charm” again, when he was trying to grow a beard. Donna was an amazing friend in that episode, it really made me smile. Donna had some really good moments with Jackie. I wish she valued them more, but I blame that on the writers and their need to put women against each other for “comedy”.

The Donna I write on my stories is based on the Donna from the earlier seasons, it’s a Donna who still has her flaws, but she pushes her pride aside when she recognizes she's wrong and apologizes, she doesn't see Jackie as her competition, she sees her as a friend who she loves very much, and wants the best for her.

When The Levee Breaks Donna is the real Donna, at least how I think the real Donna actually is. After Eric sent her that letter, she recognized that she gave up too much for him during their relationship, and that she wasn't being herself by doing so, so she decided to no longer wait for him and be her own woman, that's why she moved to Chicago. No one is worth giving up her dreams for, not even the love of her life. 

She loves Jackie and wants the best for her, that's why she encourages Jackie to move to Chicago with her, and she also wants to make up for the times she wasn't the friend she deserved. Donna recognized how wrong she was by siding with Kelso, and admitted that she took Jackie's friendship for granted. 

This Donna lost all the respect she had for Hyde when he came back from Vegas, to her, that wasn't the same Hyde she grew up with (she wasn't wrong), and she wasn't going to stay quiet and let him destroy himself (and Jackie). She stepped up, and tried to shove some sense into Hyde's head before leaving with Jackie, but Hyde can really be an ass when he wants to, so she gave up and punched him, that was the last time she saw him until he got his head out of his ass and went to visit them at Chicago after New Years.

Donna was heartbroken, but she refused to dwell on it and tried her best to move on with her life. She's at the top of her class at college, she's trying to be there for Jackie (who wasn't doing so good when they first moved in) and she tried to date someone else. 

Turns out that you can't really date someone if you're still in love with your ex, so that didn't work out very well for her, but it helped her realize that what she felt for Eric was real, and that it wasn't going away anytime soon.

In Chicago, Donna and Jackie formed a strong bond, they were friends before, but Chicago kind of made them sisters. During those 6 months they've spent living together, Donna developed very strong protective instincts towards Jackie, especially after Jackie opened up about her childhood with her mother. She saw Jackie struggling every day, she saw how often Jackie cried over the things that happened in Point Place, and she started to understand her friend better.

Donna's protective instincts kicked in when Hyde and Eric showed up in Chicago, but they softened after she talked to Hyde and realized that he was being genuine. She was still pissed at him, but she could see that he was suffering a lot, so in the end, she just wanted to see Jackie and Hyde being happy again.

Her feelings with Eric were conflicting, she loved him very much, and she was aware of that, she got tired of denying to herself, but that didn't erase the hurt of their past. After a long talk, she and Eric agree to start things again, but she makes it very clear that she's not giving up her future for him anymore.

One of my favorite Donna quotes on my story is:

"Eric, I don't need you in my life. But I want you in my life, I really, really do."

So basically, that's how I write Donna in WTLB, she still has her flaws, but she's overall a good person and a good friend.

Rock You Like a Hurricane Donna is not so different from WTLB Donna, she's still protective of Jackie, but not for the reasons WTLB Donna is.

Donna and Jackie grew up together in RYLH, no Eric, no Hyde, no Kelso, just the two of them, and I believe that had a significant impact on both of their personalities.

Donna and Jackie first met in school, and became best friends after Donna beat up a kid who was trying to bully Jackie. Donna and Jackie both had no friends - Jackie was new in school, and Donna was new in town - so they started to play together and basically became glued by the hip.

The fact that she didn't grow up as "one of the boys'' changed Donna's personality a bit. Not too much, we still love a lumberjacky Donna thank you very much, but her behavior around Eric and the rest of the boys is sheepish if compared to her behavior around the entire gang on the show.

That changes after a while, she starts to get comfortable around everyone after a few months.

Growing up with Jackie had an impact on her, not a bad one. Donna's way less judgemental, and she's not a hypocrite, at least not like she was portrayed on the show. Jackie calls Donna out on her bullshit, and Donna does the same for her, they make each other better and they would kill for each other.

Donna's also not afraid of showing her girly side every once in a while, and she and Jackie support each other on their interests. As shown in some chapters, Donna sometimes even watches Jackie's cheerleading practices, and she's always there to support her in the games.

Jackie encourages Donna to write on a daily basis. She always loved reading Donna's short stories, she claims that if Donna ever writes a book, she has to write a character based on her, preferably, a princess.

They have a healthy friendship in both of my stories, it's how it should've been on the show.

That’s all, I guess. If you actually read this, please feel free to give me your opinion about Donna too, I would love to hear it!

I’m posting Jackie’s character study sometime soon. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

[cheryls-blossomed]

Why do you like Iris West? Do you think she is a well written character?

Why do I like Iris? First off, I love Iris, and for countless reasons, so fair warning we might here for awhile. 

I’ve said numerous times that what really strikes a cord with me is Iris’s nobility. She has an incredibly noble spirit, and from that, she is forgiving, she is determined, she is kind, she is inspiring, she is fiercely loving. Iris always sees the best in people. In her childhood, despite what her father said, despite what so many adults said, she believed her best friend wholeheartedly about the man who murdered his mother. It wasn’t to appease Barry in any way: because Barry told her that Henry didn’t kill Nora, Iris believed him without question. Because that’s the kind of person that she is. When she begins writing about the Flash, it’s because of what he represents to the city that she loves. She is inspired, and she knows her fellow citizens are as well, so she wants to bring them hope by writing about this mysterious hero zipping around the city and saving the world. She also writes about him for her best friend, because she’s afraid he’s losing faith. The impossible is possible, as he’s been saying for years, and she wants the world to know that he has always been right. Her determination is also a powerfully defining character trait. Mason Bridge, her mentor, doesn’t think much of her at first, writing her off, but she is not swayed away from her choice of profession, and instead displays gumption and fortitude as a reporter, earning his respect. Iris is a fighter; she never, ever gives up, even when faced with insurmountable odds. 

She blatantly lacks self-preservation when it comes to protecting those that she loves and chasing stories, and I love that about her. I love that she feels so much and believes in constantly doing the right thing, no matter what. She doesn’t care that she might be caught in the crosshairs of a shoot-out, if it means that she can uncover an eviction scam to help people. She’s also trusting of those that she loves and will readily jump off of a building, if Barry tells her to, knowing he’ll catch her. She’ll also jump off a building to save Barry, without a care for herself, and her love is so utterly unconditional. 

I love that she sees the best in people, even when I wish she wouldn’t always take the high road, because it epitomized that nobility which she always carries with her. Whether it’s her rookie reporter Allegra Garcia or her once rival, Marlize DeVoe, Iris inspires people to be just and to do justice, quite similar to Barry. And relatedly one of the things I love about Barry and Iris’s relationship is that they are each so inspiring to others, because they are each other’s strength and inspiration. They are heroes, because they are heroes to each other, which is such an uplifting portrayal of love. 

And I love that she never gives up. Iris is so heroic, constantly saving herself and those around her, and a lot of her heroism is rooted in her determination. She deeply believes, and it’s how she can get through to people like Marlize. It’s also why, even in her deepest moments of grief, such as when she watches her jacket swallowed by the Black Hole, as she attempts to deal with the grief of the death of her child, she still saves the attendant in the yard with her. It’s why she is determined to find and save Captain Singh, with little regard to her own mental state, even as Kamilla keeps telling her not to push herself. It’s also why it’s so heartbreaking watching her push herself to the brink constantly to save others. She deserves catharsis. She deserves healing. She deserves people to save her, once in awhile. Iris vanishing in the season 6 finale is a heartbreaking and infuriating moment for many reasons, but it also is deeply indicative of Iris’s heroism. Like Barry, Iris will readily make the ultimate sacrifice to save other people. 

Yes, I think she’s quite well-written. I think Iris (and Barry) are the most well-rounded and consistent characters on the show. The Flash isn’t an extremely well-written show, and the characters are not incredibly complex. But Iris is well-written and consistently written; she has had a clear journey in terms of her career path as a journalist and her relationship with Barry. She has also shown tremendous character growth, and her motivations and desires and dreams are well-illustrated. Like every character on the show, she has been the subject of poor writing, where she has been written OOC or otherwise, but I think those moments are few and far between, and quite evidently overall, I think she is a well-written character. I think Iris has been shortchanged aplenty, and there is misogynoir narratively entrenched which is harmful towards her. But Iris, herself, is a great character, and this is why the “complaints” about her from those who claim to dislike her because she’s “poorly written” are disingenuous and idiotic.

[nonbinaryeye]

Please tell me some unpopular opinion of yours!

Either about the fandom or about the show (or both), surprise me

I would like to write a bit longer and more complex post about it later but...

I really don't like some of the takes on Martin especially in fifth season in the fandom. Now first of all I wouldn't even say it's majority and this is only my opinion and it's perfectly possible that I'm the only one who doesn't fully understand his character.

From my point of view there are basically three kinds of kinda simplification of his char. Either he's being still characterized as sweet overprotective guy as he was in seasons 1 - 3. I sometimes see lines which were clearly said as annoyed or frustrated later portrayed in fanarts as much more understanding when he sounded clearly annoyed... I mean they are in the middle of apocalypse and his omnious boyfriend never gives him straight answer. He got all right to be a bit frustrated.

On the other hand I've also seen previous seasons recontextualized as that Martin has always been quite vocal and assertive... I think I've seen takes that he Jon actually dislikes him because he gave him harsh lecture about not killing spiders but that's not who he was. When we first heard him he was nervous. And anxious. And desperately wanting to just do a good job and being more vocal only when he was defending Jon. But he's been through lot he's more in control now he's trying to overcome his self worthe issues pretending he never had them takes a great amount of the character.

Oh and of course the third take is that he's not understanding enough towards Jon and his whole character in season five is ooc and his relationship with Jon is overall unhealthy. And I agree that his action and decision are sometimes quite frustrating and almost hypocritical and you can view Martin's relationship with Jon whatever way you want but I really disagree with the ooc part because people change after a trauma. Sometimes a lot or it a way you wouldn't expect them.

Okay this accidentally got a bit longer than I intended I just wanted to make sure that I explain myself properly.

[dieorfight]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PLOT OF THE SHOW?!? When this show has been going in for 15 years and in your last episode you write you characters straight out of season one and turn their complex personalities into "pie" and "little brother". The fact that they had the ultimate free will and then you just killed off Dean! He had a dog and a job application, he was ready to move on!! It would've been more meaningful to see Dean live out his life happy and healthy because most of this series Dean always felt like he wouldn't get away. That would've been the ultimate character growth! On to Sam they turned him back to his codependent little brother from the early seasons. He didn't look happy with his life and all he could think about was Dean, that's not happy or healthy. Where's my girl Eileen that's Sam soulmate and they def would have multiple kids and have like a little hunting school or something. If Dabb thinks his 30% happy is passing he needs to join the American Public School system. If Dabb says that the fans are unhappy because of no Destiel (and I'm not even a destiel shipper) but after what you did in ep 18, what do you expect! And most people are upset by Cas being MIA and Sam and Dan being totally OOC. Overall it was a horrible disgusting ending for two great characters.

[found--family]

@ Blue Heart Nonny in my inbox (yes, i can answer your ask without posting it. no worries 💙) 

here are the cliff-notes for everyone else: 

there ARE Bronly blogs that are unhappy with Dean's ending because it wasn't fulfilling/he didn't get happiness/was killed off/the narrative undid years worth of character growth 

those same blogs as well as others think Sam's ending was lacklustre 

okay. so because i don't interact with such blogs i wasn't aware of this, but after a quick inspection thanks to Nonny, i find that it's true. 

I'm not surprised, exactly. most of the Bronly blogs I've come across over the years have been vocal about Dean as an individual, a character who deserves his own narrative journey separate from Sam as well as Cas (of course 99% of them were anti-Cas so ofc i skiddadled out of there). And Sam Stans wanted a happy ending (domestic or otherwise) for him, one that's full of sunshine and smiles and yes, Found Family (the members of which do change from blog to blog). 

all ships and Cas-hate aside, it was reassuring to see these bloggers recognise the endgame narrative as lacking, regressive, depressing and OOC for both Sam and Dean. 

they didn't like the ending. 

*cue solidarity meme* 

this is important to note because what makes this fandom so special is our love for these characters and the complexity of the characters themselves (as has been mentioned on a fair few reaction posts already). we all want them to be happy, but we also want their journey not to have been for naught, we want their individual endings and the narrative as a whole to make sense because we've been with them through all of their struggles to learn and grow and try to find some peace and their own sense of purpose and meaning. 

what I'm trying to say, is that while I'm a Destiel shipper I am first and foremost a fan of the characters - Dean and Cas, and Sam and Jack and all members of the collective Found Family the boys have met and embraced along the way. 

I've shared a LOT of anti-Bronly content over the past 24hrs, but i'm not just angry that the bros-only ending pushed Cas and Destiel out of the narrative, I'm angry because that ending also did a disservice to these beloved characters as individuals. it brought back the toxic codependency after 15 seasons of the brothers fighting to be their own people, to be in each other's lives but not have their happiness dependant solely on each other. 

*

Dean didn't get to live his own life and he died laughably, pitifully. His Heaven wasn't even his own and he ended up right back where he started: on a roadtrip to nowhere, alone. And in the end (Heaven) Dean was denied being allowed to embrace the self-love he'd learned on his journey and discover a life of his own and happiness that he deserved, /before/ reuniting with Sam. Sam got a liftime, Dean deserved the same, especially considering Dean's the one who never really believed that he deserved such a thing (but was recently convinced he was worth saving, worth happiness, worthy of giving and receiving love - yes, thanks largely to Cas) and canon chose to hammer home that idea like the nail in Dean's back, like the blunt little instrument Dean thought he was (but isn't). 

Sam's domestic montage was lacking substance and emotion and the overall vibe was wholly depressing, sending the message that he couldn't live a happy life without his brother when we know he has managed that/wanted that through the seasons. It was like he was just going through the motions for Dean's sake until they could be reunited by death. 

Frankly, Sam's montage would've been a LOT more heart-warming if his Found Family was present, or at least if Eileen was his wife (we still don't know) and they shared smiles/kisses/dancing in the living room. Maybe the Found Family thing was Covid, but for Eileen i call bullshit on the account of Jenny's presence and the fact that Shoshannah is also one person, not a bridge-full. Worst case scenario they could've shot her scenes separate and blended them with body doubles etc. Hell, i would've accepted a video call presence as a last resort. It would've made for an ending I was emotionally connected to. Instead we got strangers, a swiss-cheese life (missing pieces), and a depressing oldman!Sam. I could've bought the oldman!Sam dying after a long full life - but the montage left me (and Sam) unsatisfied with that Life. I mean, 15 years worth of content took.. 15 years to go through and emotionally invest in, so you really have to bring your A game to condense 50-odd years into a minute or two - and they didn't. That was some C-minus bullshit. 

And then there's the Heaven thing.

Sam pretty much shows up in Heaven right after Dean dies. I reiterate, Dean didn't get to live his own Life nor his own Afterlife. Sam had the chance at a Life, and Dean could've easily had his own Afterlife if the writers had allowed it: a montage of Dean fishing in Heaven, sharing drinks with Bobby, Miracle the dog showing up, Dean working or karaokeung in the Roadhouse (an improvement on the Rocky's bar fantasy) Dean experiencing all kinds of happy and domestic things - and it should've been with Found Family, but again if Covid is to blame there were ways to work around that with blurred background people and body doubles and voices off-screen. 

Instead, Dean's individual storyline is erased as he's reduced to a footnote in Sam's afterlife. No happiness in life and no meaningful afterlife he can call his own. Sam's family will eventually join him in Heaven, but Dean is left lacking in friendships as well as a romantic partner. The real Sam's heart would've broken at that, and the real Dean would've been unhappy and would've sought out people and meaningful relationships (again, Found Family). 

BTW: i saw mention that the lack of Found Family in Heaven is because they're not dead yet.. *cough* let's recap some dead loved ones who could've made an appearance shall we: Jo, Ash, Ellen, Rufus + Mary + John (all mentioned but none shown), Pamela, Kevin, Adam, OG!Charlie, Missouri.. hell, even Henry or Ketch or Frank.. i would've been overjoyed at seeing Cassie again, because we don't know who's dead or not. Krissy, Cesar, Jesse - they could've died, especially since in the time it took for Dean to take his little roadtrip, Sam lived 50-odd years on earth. So, if we're going by canon's timey-wimey rules they could've easily brought back any Found Family member they wanted. 

but, again, we got random vamp Jenny.

simply put, Covid is not to blame and there were many simple tweaks that could've made the finally on some level. instead the characters and the audience are left devastated and wanting. 

i know we don't see heart-to-heart on shipping matters, but even Destiel shippers and Bronlies can agree Sam and Dean didn't get the happy, satisfying endings their characters and 15 years worth of narrative deserved. 

* note: Bronlies (not Bibros) are invited to share their thoughts on this post about Sam and Dean's individual endings, but please avoid negative Destiel talk, negative Cas talk, and any wincest talk. 

[filthyjanuary]

I've never seen an episode of supernatural all I see is what's on your blog and each and every day I become more confused about the writing of the show and why people enjoy it :l

okay well first off i am SO sorry you have to see me like this jknbuvgyuhjn i cannot believe im spnblogging in 2020 like im 15 again but things happen i guess.

second of all, the thing to know about supernatural is.... i think, for general audiences, it is an average-to-good show. it's not Bad. It's not Beloved and/or Acclaimed. objectively, i think is also probably the most balanced view of the show and is also probably what the cw and/or people who worked on the show see it as. it lasted 15 years because it consistently pulled in reliable numbers for the cw and grabbed a lot of demographics. like i know the tumblr bubble skews perceptions but, people of all ages, genders, sexualities watched and enjoyed supernatural, yes even to the very end. most people are also not looking at supernatural with the hyperfocused lens that tumblr is and that’s like... okay. those fans aren’t any less relevant or important. if only tumblr was watching supernatural, i promise it would’ve been cancelled like at least 7 years ago.

the spn *fandom* is interesting because like one, no one is watching the same fucking show. like we all watched the same episodes but like this fandom cant even agree on like...basic facets of canon, let alone digging into complex meta. people’s views of characters actions and motivations skew wildly. things one side of the fandom considers nearly canon are like essentially viewed as ooc on other sides of the fandom. you love and hate all the characters and everyone is always about to start swinging on everyone else. you have to simultaneously juggle the ideas that the writers — and for the record this show has had four showrunners and like a billion individual writers who all see and interpret it slightly differently — are brilliant and the writers legitimately are both stupid and bad at their jobs. you have to turn your brain off in terms of continuity because they retcon their own lore every 15 seconds. this isn’t even getting into the ship wars, the boundary crossing, the weird invasiveness , etc., etc., etc. supernatural’s writing is sometimes incredible, sometimes terrible, but generally pretty average, but it had a charm (ESPECIALLY IN SEASONS 1-3) that reeled you in, even if you hated the genre.

when a show is on this long, i think the fans (rightly so) will look back and dig in and get nitpicky on things they wish were covered with more care. things that the show obviously did not decide to write with the intention of addressing/grappling with later on. case in point: dean’s drinking habits. with the exception of like... season 7 where they DO address it, dean drinks a lot as a feature of his character with little to no consequence. he doesn’t get drunk. he’s always driving. it might as well be water. the writers don’t intend for that to be more than just a facet of what makes him a rough and tough action hero even though logically, he should be drunk all the time. even w/ interviews w/ the cast/crew, it’s clear the writers don’t think the fans will care and/or notice a lot of things. they do, because well, they’re invested. the fandom extrapolates because that’s what fandom does, but i really don’t think the writers connect those dots because dean’s drinking /isn’t/ a problem until they need it to be. because spn has gone on so long, it has more instances of things like this than other shows, and our cultural contexts have also evolved a lot along the way from 2005 to 2020. so again, there’s a lot to work with. i don’t really think that’s so much a reflection of the quality of the show than it is a reflection of how long it’s been on and the way society has changed since then. dean not knowing what myspace is is funny for two completely different reasons in 2005 and in 2020, for example.

my own personal opinion is, there’s a lot to enjoy about supernatural. seasons 1-5 are legitimately good tv. for all their flaws, they have a very clear aesthetic and tell a story that is well-structured and relatively coherent in terms of themes and continuity. they set up complex characters and relationships and everyone’s motivations make sense and that arc wraps on a tragic but ultimately narratively consistent and thus fulfilling point. of course, there’s stuff i personally like and dislike but separating my emotions from it, it’s very good. i think if anything, i would recommend anyone watch those five seasons and then decide whether they want to continue or not. if you don’t, you’ll end on a note that feels complete. it’s what i’m doing w/ my friend elaine, currently, actually. if she decides she wants to continue after 5, we’ll do that, but for now we’re just vibing in season 1. after that point, i think if you decide you care enough about the characters to push through wildly inconsistent writing, there’s stuff to enjoy in seasons 6-15, but the quality and particularly the consistency dips and this is also where the retconning really starts to...intensify. it’s also where the mythos of supernatural grows bigger than the show itself, which i think was always supernatural’s downfall. the crew started caring more about the whims of the fandom and frankly the fandom became more of the story than the show, and that’s how you get people piecing together what supernatural is based on out of context gifsets that skew perceptions wildly and get Supernatural Fandom™ which... frankly, in my opinion, changed fandom culture as a whole for the worse, like yes it’s a huge, powerful and often memeable behemoth but also... the way it changed creator-fan interactions is something we’re going to be unpacking for a long time. i think had the writers tuned out fandom wars and internet yelling and strived to tell a story that made sense and was well constructed to /them/, we wouldn’t be here and seasons 6-15 could’ve found a way to be as beloved as the first third of the show. i’m personally of the opinion that being a fan of something, for better or for worse, does not entitle you to part of it’s creative process. it doesn’t become a collaboration, and the door is always there if you get to the point where you want to leave. i think supernatural getting too caught up in its own fandom and balancing all these conflicting interests is ultimately what made the last 10 seasons, and particularly the back third of the show oftentimes flounder. the finale chaos, in my opinion, happened because they tried to please everyone by keeping too many things vague so people would have room to play in their own sandboxes and round out the story the way they wanted to see it and thus ultimately, a lot of things were left in the air and so for many people, the closure they were hoping for just wasn’t there.

i dont know how this became a long and scattered collection of thoughts but tldr, people enjoy supernatural because at the end of the day, it’s an enjoyable show and i think the more you stew in a fandom bubble, there’s more to get worked up about. which is fine. i like that fandom engages in complex conversations that the show won’t grapple with, but that’s not for everyone and i don’t think the fact that we have these conversations is necessarily an indictment of the show’s overall quality.

[nealcassatiel]

I feel like we need to talk about how Dabb & co ruined Dean's character. 15x17 was just as terrible as 15x19 and 15x20 in terms of this, he was absurdly inconsistent in season 14 and 15 overall. How did he go from making Jack a birthday cake and calling him family, to verbally abusing the kid and trying to kill him? how did he go from tearfully praying to Cas in 15x09 to unapologetically wanting to kill his kid?

Hey! If I’m being completely honest, this is a super big question and I haven’t done an in-depth review of season 14 and 15 whilst looking in particular at Dean’s character arc. Hence, for such a far-reaching question I don’t think I’ll be able to answer this right now in the way it deserves. 

Especially because this implicated Dean, Cas and Jack, and the complex interplay of their relationships. I’d have to take into account narrative elements such as Mary’s death, Jack’s soullessness, and the various arguments between Dean and Cas these past seasons. 

Plus, I’d need to take into account the other writers on the show and look at whether Dean’s character was ruined even before 15x19 and 15x20. I can say with certainty right now, that Dean seemed incredibly OOC in 15x19 and most definitely in 15x20 - to the extent that it seemed like Jensen couldn’t even act properly it was so ooc. Therefore right now, I would say that in broad strokes 15x20 was the greatest misstep in Dean’s characterisation across the entire show (imo).

Your ask is a bold claim to levy at Dabb and the writing team, and well worth some proper thought and discussion. I would hesitantly say that I’m inclined to not take the same position, but without solid arguments to state why - I’ll go off and have a more detailed look at the seasons before properly answering (though this may take a while as I’m not watching the CW and will have to find ways).

But thanks for the ask! I hope you’ll allow me a lot of further time to mull this one over!