#like … the duffers are wrong if they are not endgame

[a-shade-of-green]

am i delusional? yes.

am i too hopeful for my own good? yes.

do i still think that the byler first kiss, if not confirming flickergate, will at least happen in the Upside Down to Bowie's Heroes because "the shame is on the other side"?

...yes

[realfruittaste]

I love when people say “what if you’re wrong about byler” like no baby if we don’t get byler endgame it just means the duffer brothers are wrong. I’ll always remain right no matter what

[ven0moir]

hey how do u feel abt noah saying that people should not get their hopes up for season 5 of stranger things? he didn’t specifically say anything abt it being byler related but idk - a lot of fans think of byler when they think of will and so im worried he was trying to like subtlety tell byler shippers to not get their hopes up

hi anon!

IF he was referring to bylers in that sentence, then this is what I'd assume; I think he was speaking generally. the most beloved byler theories ( flickergate, loverslake, wallgate, heroesgate, ud kiss, etc ) do not fit with the tone of the show, so they're very beloved, but noah himself once said that the fans are very creative ... yet wrong about everything.

that's why I do not even attempt to make "theories" about how Byler's kiss will happen or entertain that idea, its just wasted creativity bc they don't WANT you to know. Prediction theories will likely be wrong unless the Duffers WANT you piecing things together ( like how they said that they left enough clues IN VOLUME 2 for someone to piece together why the UD is frozen the day Will went missing. They wouldn't have said that IMO if they didn't want to encourage fans to figure it out. Otherwise it's sort of wasting your fan's time for no good reason ..? )

IF byler's endgame, chances are some of their storyline ( and Will's arc ) won't be satisfying to some of them ( *cough cough* I think you might know exactly what I'm talking about ) bc from everything they've said so far they ARE departing from this 'hopeless, martyr Will who suffers in silence and waits for Mike' vision that the fandom expects for him when it comes to his feelings for Mike. ( I have a friend who believes the 'choice' is mike's and mike's alone and Will is important but in his love life, he gets 0 say like let's be so fr here for a second. One thing I think Milevens are right about, that Bylers refuse to accept is that Will let go of his idea of being with Mike romantically in that van, and any hope he had left after that faded when Mike gave that speech to El and essentially locked them in as endgame in HIS eyes lmao )

and I personally would rather not have byler endgame than them literally removing the power of CHOICE from the character named Will ( power of CHOICE/Free Will/Will power ) in the season that is his coming of age and that has centered his sexuality and feelings for Mike so much.

That sounds like a genuine snooze fest

like GIVE ME THE SUPERNATURAL AS A REFLECTION OF HOW THEY START OFF S5. GIVE ME FULL ON QUEER HORROR

BUT I'LL BE RIDING THAT WAVE BABY I JUST KNOW I WILL PERSONALLY LOVE IT AND BE CHEERING WILL AND THE DUFFERS ON FOR THAT

I'm pretty sure some of this expectation of 'martyr Will' comes from some confusion over S4 El's arc being projected onto him, ( and that's totally fine! honestly I'm still understanding stuff myself but damn some people around here need to rewatch the show and set aside their fanon version of Byler for a second ) but that's why the most common version of Byler endgame that Byler fans are expecting/hoping for ( and the GA doesn't buy, mind you ) is basically a rewritten version of S4 Mileven.

"Leave the station, Nina. Don't keep waiting for a lover that won't return."

She also resisted Henry's influence and tried to reach him despite everything he's done--much like how she reached Billy in S3. She's been coded as an angel, a Jesus figure, El literally means God, etc. SHE'S MY DAUGHTER I LOVE HER SM I'm scared for her ending the most omfg

I have the awful feeling she'll experience a metaphorical death ( like, staying in the UD and transforming it as the gatekeeper I SO HOPE IM WRONG PLEASE I HOPE THIS IS DUE TO MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING STILL and not bc they will really do that to her hhh )

Will? imo Will's being set up to go batshit unhinged and reckless and careless and fucking up as he figures himself out and tbh so far, everything they've said falls in line nicely with what I was HOPING for.

thank GOODNESS

And whereas I do not believe for ONE second the Duffers are perfect ( thank god, perfection is so boring and artificial ) I AM choosing to trust they're choosing to be brave and genuinely love their show. The fact people on both sides will be pissed/triggered due to some of their writing choices I think will just be an unfortunate consequence. Sometimes we forget these guys are not rocket scientists and at the end of the day, they're DnD nerds who love their play. If you're not having fun analyzing, chances are you're not approaching it the right way since both DnD and the show are about community and connection. It's inherently what makes them both fun.

I already went through my "acceptance arc" where I internalized that I do not write this show and have 0 say in its outcome. I definitely recommend others do the same and be prepared for whatever happens bc we've put a lot of emotional investment into the show, and that's okay, we're in this together, but we gotta make sure we're prioritizing our mental well-being and I do worry about some Bylers in the tag that I do not think ... should be watching this show ... ( especially after the reactions I saw during that Bychance / Byler "Civil War" .... yikes )

but yeah let me know if any of this makes sense / share your thoughts!!! they'd be cool to know <3

[stonathandreamer]

Regarding the Duffers' "hate" of Jonathan...

(Warnings: this post is an absolute maelstrom of emotions. It contains mild "anti Stancy," "anti Jancy," and "anti Nancy." Keep in mind that these are my personal opinions on the matter. Don't bother trying to make me change my mind, you'll just be losing your time. Haters will be blocked. Also, it's super long, like, Avengers: Endgame movie length long.)

I don’t think they hate him. How can you hate a character YOU created? Nah, it's ridiculous, even for their own ridiculous standards.

If they truly hated Jonathan, the Dumbers would have gotten rid of him in Season 3 or Season 2, giving some lame excuse like, "Oh, he graduated early and went to college," or they would have just killed him off. Jonathan's not a popular character, so the majority of people wouldn't care if he just disappeared.

No, they don't hate him. It's something else. Namely, fan service and bad writing.

I think fame went to their heads after Season 1 (remember, people didn't have faith that Stranger Things would be a hit back in 2016. David Harbour even said he thought the show would flop horribly), so I believe the Dumbers are trying really hard to appease the fans and keep their show popular. Now more than ever, considering they apparently want to create a Stranger Things Cinematic Universe with God knows how many spin-offs.

Looking back, some events from the series do seem like fan service, with the Dumbers wanting to appease the louder groups of the fandom. Billy's "redemption arc" seemed like an attempt to satisfy his fans—remember, the character of Billy was what Steve was supposed to be: a violent, abusive, and irredeemable jock who would be killed by the Monster. Irredeemable. And yet, they tried to redeem him. Steve's feelings for Nancy apparently returning in S4 also seem to be fan service to me, given that the fandom loves him over Jonathan, and Stancy shippers are more vocal than Jancy shippers.

Another contributing factor is bad writing. The Dumbers aren't great writers. They really aren't.

No one is perfect, I know, and we all have different opinions about everything, BUT they did Jonathan wrong ever since S1. That scene—yep, that one you're thinking about—permanently ruined his reputation in the fandom. It's the one thing his haters always bring up, and it's all the Dumbers' fault. How do you make the series protagonist, the supposed hero, do such a shitty thing?! It's bad writing, and it's something the Jonathan haters, the extremist Stancy defenders, and extremist Steve defenders always use against him. Funny, because they apparently forgave the "Nancy the Slut Wheeler" graffiti thing so quickly... 🤔 (or forgot? Or just act like it never happened?). Like, yeah, the girl's boyfriend and his friends called a teenage girl a slut, painted it on a wall for the whole town to see, but hey, everyone makes mistakes, right?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but Steve's actions fit his then-S1 persona, a.k.a. the season's teenage antagonist. Jonathan's actions don’t fit his role as the protagonist, the good guy, the supposed hero. The Dumbers just needed to move the plot, and the only thing they could come up with was to make Jonathan take those pictures. They made the protagonist (Jonathan) look bad and the antagonist (Steve) look good.

By doing so, Jonathan's popularity was doomed to decline, and when Steve became the good guy in Season 2, the fandom found their "Big Brother character," the kind, caring, and protective guy who always takes care of the kids—something the Dumbers seem to have taken a liking to, given how often they provide "Babysitter Steve" content to the fandom. While Jonathan, the actual kind, caring, and protective big brother, gets sidelined constantly. Painfully and criminally sidelined.

(Keep in mind that Jonathan has known those kids for years! He has known Mike, Lucas, and Dustin for years because they are his little brother's friends. Steve has known them for what? Two years?)

In this fandom, Steve's fans are more vocal, since they outnumber Jonathan's fans, and the Dumbers know that. They know how loved Steve is, which is why Steve's screen time increased in each season (S1: 23 minutes, S2: 33 minutes, S3: 45 minutes, S4: 78 minutes), while Jonathan's screen time DECREASED SEVERELY (S1: 57 minutes, S2: 32 minutes, S3: 27 minutes, S4: 59 minutes), and is doomed to continue that way in S5, apparently.

Fanon!Steve is Canon!Jonathan - or what Canon!Jonathan used to be.

Seeing Jonathan's popularity decrease, the Dumbers decided it wouldn't be worth focusing on him anymore since the majority of the fandom doesn't care about him. They decided to focus on other characters instead, which contributed even more to Jonathan's downfall.

Season 3 did him dirty. I don't like how he was treated there, how they made him seem to be in the wrong in his argument with his girlfriend, despite having valid points, how he was reduced into being Nancy's sidekick, having to put up with her shit while his own concerns (his need for money to help his family pay the bills) were invalidated. But Season 4 was his all-time low. Pretty much everything that defines Jonathan as a character vanished completely—his passion for photography, his love for music, his protectiveness of his family, his childhood dream of going to NYU, and even his car. Everything, gone. Yes, he and Will have a nice heart-to-heart talk that maybe made me sob, but keep in mind Jonathan still ignored Will for a while, something his past self would never do.

(Remember, every time something happened to Will, Jonathan always blamed himself for "not being there for him.")

Jonathan had everything to be a fan favorite: the kind heart and soul, the care for others, the love for his family, the selflessness, but he had the misfortune of having the Duffer Brothers as writers, who threw him under the bus and never bothered to call 911 after that.

They erased him almost entirely from the show, reducing him, a main character who's been around since Season 1, to a side character.

People say Jonathan's not interesting, that his plot line is boring, that he's not important, some even go as far as to offend his appearence, with offenses ranging from "he's ugly af" to "he looks like a crack addict". There's a human behind that character, and his name is Charles Ross Heaton. When you call Jonathan those things, you're not offending Jonathan Byers, the Stranger Things character, you're offending Charlie Heaton, the actor of Stranger Things behind the character of Jonathan Byers.

You have every right in the universe to find someone attractive or not—everyone has their preferences. I personally think Charlie is a handsome and good-looking fella (if only he quit the 🚬. Sorry, but I am concerned parent sometimes and I also have a natural aversion to that, because my respiratory system is super sensible to strong smells, especially of smoke, and even seeing one makes me uneasy). You don't find Jonathan (actually, Charlie) good-looking? It's your opinion and you're entitled to it 👍🏻. You don't find Jonathan (actually, Charlie) good-looking and called him a "crack looking addict," "a druggie," "someone who's clearly high on something all the time," or "an Elon Musk lookalike"? There's a line, buddy, and you just crossed it. You're being offensive, disrespectful, a jerk, and, above all, a motherfucking piece of shit and a waste of precious oxygen 🖕🏻.

Jonathan had so much potential.

He and Steve could have been friends (yes, I am making this about Stonathan; deal with it), since it was Jonathan who gave Steve the "wake-up call" (when Steve bad-mouthed his mom and brother, and Jonathan gave him a beating). It was Steve who bought him his new camera. And yet, these things are never properly acknowledged by the characters. Jonathan could have been such a good big brother to El when they were living in Cali, but the Dumbers thought "nah, weed is better for him." Their time in Cali could have strengthened the Byers siblings relationship, since now they're all going to the same school and are all teens. They could open up to each other, let out their frustrations, and ask for advice. Imagine a scene where Jonathan, Will, and El are all sitting in his room and are just talking about life, school, the future, goofing off like siblings. but nooooooooooo. Let's throw Jonathan into a dark corner and leave him there!

I fear for Jonathan's life in S5? Yes. Will he actually die? Hardly (IMO). A character's death is meant to impact both the other characters and the fandom, and while Jonathan's death would destroy the Byers completely, the fandom wouldn't care (some would even cheer and say "yay, now Steve can go back to his ex-girlfriend who was terrible to him and he was terrible to her and they can revive their terrible relationship and live terribly ever after!").

Jonathan is a character I relate to a lot; the loner freak with no friends who has to help his family stay afloat. I see Jonathan struggling with life and I think, "Fuck, this sounds familiar... Oh, wait." I see Jonathan being bashed and bullied by the fandom and I think how much these people would actually bully him IRL.

Stranger Things is a story where the freaks, the nerds, the geeks, and the losers win, and yet Jonathan doesn't seem to be having many wins for himself (and yes, I'm writing these final paragraphs while some tears threaten to spill). He's constantly sidelined and forgotten. Forgotten by the writers, by other characters, by Netflix, and even by the fandom.

Jonathan is my comfort character. I see a lot of myself in him and I wish the writers would have treated him better so that I could have looked at him and thought, "Fuck... We actually won." But alas, I fear this won't happen.

I fear Jonathan's story will continue to be the way it is and end with him being a sidelined guy people will quickly forget once the show ends. But I won't.

I will never forget Jonathan Byers.

I wish I could be alive for when Stranger Things fall into public domain, so that I could correct the mistakes they made to Jonathan and give the Dumber Brothers a big "FUCK YOU!"

Jonathan Byers deserves better. And so does Charlie Heaton, who also falls victim to constant sidelining.

JUSTICE FOR JONATHAN BYERS ✊🏻!

JUSTICE FOR CHARLIE HEATON ✊🏻!

And now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go cry in the shower for a day or two.

[ghostlycleric]

With all these leaks floating around I feel like it’s important to remember one thing:

There is no such thing as a trustworthy, credible leaker.

I don’t care if you get leaks from your own mom who works in production. I don’t care if you get leaks from the Duffers themselves. No matter who they’re from, you’re playing a game of whisper down the lane.

You have to remember that anyone can pretend to be a credible source. You have to remember that any real original sources still have their own internal biases and interpretations of a limited scope of the show. You have to remember that leaks lose their credibility the more mouths they pass through. You have to remember that even the most trustworthy people can lie. There will always be inevitable missing context, misinterpretation, and/or lies.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were people on set specifically told to spread fake information to leakers. There could also be specific pieces of true/half true information they allow to spread. Production is well aware that people are trying to pry into the contents of season 5.

All these leak accounts are looking for engagements, for noise around their posts. That’s why most leaks pertain to the mileven/byler love triangle. Any leak that claims mileven or byler endgame should honestly just be thrown to the side immediately. That leaker would have to know ALL of the context of every scene of them filmed and where they fit on a timeline to be able to say that. We can expect time travel/flashbacks/Vecna visions in s5, so they’d have to account for that too. A person with access to that knowledge has too much to lose to break their NDAs and tell random people on the internet spoilers.

The only things you can trust (once AI is ruled out) are pictures and videos. Even with those, you have to remember that they’re taken out of context. (There’s also actor location, which is sort of safe to trust since it has nothing to do with the contents of the show. Everything that comes from actor location is speculation.)

Some leaks will be right. Some almost right. Many will be wrong.

Have fun with the leaks, but be careful if you choose to use them to build expectations of season 5.

[ihopeyouhaveanicexmas]

I went on a rant, so if you are experiencing byler doubt, read this.

"What about us?" "What?"

and

"We're friends. We're friends"

are crazy btw. that's the moment that solidified byler becoming canon for me.

The first time I watched that scene I didn't understand half of the conversation bc they always shift the topics so you need to analyze their conversations (especially their fights) in order to be sure what they were essentially talking about. But it's all the inherently romantic stuff with byler that make me sure they will happen. I don't need any more proof than that (the second best proof for me is how they have exactly what the other needs, along with Will being confirmed in love with Mike)

Like, even with the occasional doubt about whether or not they will queerbait us, I always knew (from the first time I watched the show) that they were being written to be love interests. (other than Mike confusing me in s3 at first)

There are soooo many moments that make it obvious that byler is romantic (and not one-sided), just by spotting the tropes they use with them.

Of course Mike is written in a way that will confuse us, but the byler fandom analyzed his character to the point that him having feelings for Will makes complete sense, even more so than if he doesn't. So now that isn't even an issue anymore.

Not to mention that in every season they keep expanding on whatever is going on with them. S3 was shocking, even with the clues in the previous seasons. The rain fight is what made apparent that, even though they were trying to make it look like there was nothing of substance there, SURPRISE!! THERE IS. And then s4 made it 10 times more obvious that their relationship is important as fuck. Thennn there is the foreshadowing throughout s4 that their relationship will be super important for the supernatural plot as well.

It just kept getting gayer and gayer. If you thought that the rain fight was a one time thing, especially bc the only conversation they had after it was really brief, s4 made you go "HOLD ON THERE IS ACTUALLY EVEN MORE THERE??"

AND THE THING IS THAT IT GOT PROGRESSIVELY MORE OBVIOUSLY GAY ON PURPOSE. THE BUILD-UP WAS. ON. PURPOSE.

I rest my case, I have 0% doubt that byler will be endgame. Not even duffer doubt, bc there is no fucking way we are reading it wrong. TRUST YOUR INTUITION PPL!!!!! THE SUFFERS WILL DELIVER!!

[mike-wheel]

its just more proof to me that mike and el didnt have a single scene together in season 4 that will wasnt apart of (with the exception of their fight scene but like we all know how that went)

Its been a hot sec since ive done a rewatch so correct me if im wrong but...

Mike and El reunite -> immediate trouble "from mike" is introduced-> shifts to awkward dynamic between Mike and Will

The whole rinkomania "date" with focus on Will being upset -> El gets bullied but what does mike end up focusing on? -> will's behavior and having a fight with him

Reunion (again) in the desert and whos in the shot? WILL. And who does Mike seem to look conflictingly between? WILL and El

Pizza talk -> interrupted by argyle AND then shown from Wills perspective, centering the relationship around him again.

EVEN THE I LOVE YOU SCENE! Will is in shot so many times.

Weve talked about this so much it just truly blows my mind because people are right. This is NOT how you write unrequited love stories. You dont center and shove the person who's supposed to be rejected in almost every moment and shot. This buildup is much too sad and tragic for an already traumatized character to end THIS badly. They are endgame or the duffers HATE will byers which we definitely know is NOT the case

[orlastarburst]

I don't have byler doubt but I just got hit with a massive fear of what WOULD happen if byler wasn't endgame

The toxic midlevens would actually bully us and be like super homophobic and even if the duffers said that there was a reason byler wasn't endgame cuz idk smth happened in production and they had always planned byler to be canon

The milkvans just wouldn't CARE

But I doubt we're wrong but just the thought of the aftermath if we are is just scary to me

[carigm]

About Dyersfilm’s “leak”

For all of you who don’t know, dyersfilm is an insufferable individual who used to go by the name of swiftlynatalia. She is racist, homophobic, transphobic, and even made fun of her supposed favorite actress’ eating disorder. However, people on Twitter (especially mlvns) entertain her because she had reliable sources during the filming of S4, and after during post production. She had some true leaks, many being the same that Reddit got right, while others only she had. She was also wrong about quite a few things, but generally she was reliable.

It is worth noting though that she is extremely biased against byler (many of the leaks she got wrong for S4 were pertaining their storyline) and absolutely hates the ship.

This time around, she was getting some leaks during the first couple of months of filming to her curious cat, but she herself claimed that these were not reliable leaks whatsoever and that she was pissed because this time she doesn’t have access to the real sources she had for S4. She has complained about this repeatedly for these past few months. The leaks she has gotten tho, many she has mocked and made fun of because they don’t align with what she wants from the show. She also made a “disclaimer” when the show started filming again that she would not be posting leaks about Byler because she hates us all, and yet every single one of those most likely fake leaks she got she posted, and many of them talked about Byler. She would post them and mock them for “clearly being untrue”. She has barely gotten a single Mlvn positive leak this whole time, and when she’s gotten at least something that alludes to them having scenes together she immediately ran to post it and alert all her friends, even tho she herself knows all of these are most likely fake.

For weeks now, her curious cat has been dry af because I guess nda’s are stronger this time, or no one wants to leak shit to her (she’s rude as hell). she posted the following ask 10 days ago. Someone asked her if she knew about any Mike and El scenes and she said no. Keep this in mind for what’s coming next…

Then suddenly yesterday, she alluded to a Jonathan spoiler she’s supposedly pissed about, but refused to post it like she’s done for everything else. People quickly thought it might involve Byler because she said she wasn’t going to post “leaks” about it, even though she had already lol. So they asked her and she said that “yes, it has to do with Byler.”

Then shortly after this someone asked about Mlvn again, this was just today. Again, note how she proceeds to say she knows nothing about Mlvn 😭

Bylers on Twitter noticed her answers about Mlvn and her comment about a supposed byler leak involving Jonathan and started speculating. She ofc noticed this, and not even after an hour of her saying she knows nothing about Mlvn she goes on to say this.

….

She knows nothing but somehow she knows Mlvn is stable? The bipolar disorder of these answers could rival my own bipolar.

Mind you, we all know that she would’ve jumped up at the first opportunity to post any leak that implied Will was pining and miserable, her and her friends would’ve had a field day over it. And yet, she only clarifies this after…

Not to mention how utterly ridiculous this all is. They’ve filmed stuff up until episode 4 (from what we know), why the hell would Will be pining and hung up over Mike if Mlvn is endgame? That makes absolutely no fucking sense. They would have him immediately fully patch things up with Mike and move on, not be hung up on someone he can’t have in the middle of an apocalypse. Especially not after the Duffers said he’s getting a happy ending. Will getting a happy ending but still being in love with Mike halfway through the last season with Mlvn being endgame is absolute lunacy.

Especially when you consider the fact that narratively, in a sense, Will has already moved on. He doesn’t expect anything from Mike, he doesn’t think Mike can like him back. He saw Mike confess his love in front of El, he helped that confession happen. Will literally has no problem with Mlvn anymore pls 😭 He saved them!!

This is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever read.

Will is somehow upset at Mike not feeling the same way…when Will already believes Mike doesn’t feel the same and doesn’t ever expect any reciprocation 😭

Either she’s wildly twisting this supposed leak out of context to fit her own perceived narrative of what should happen, or she’s straight up lying about this.

And we know she’s lying about Mlvn so…you people decide what you think of this buffoonery lol.

Wait for Reddit leaks y’all. This woman could get a legit leak saying Byler is endgame and dig her own grave before posting it.

[willbyersmikewheeler]

Lowkey not ready but ready for the trailer, so nervous and excited. Why? Because I want the season to be good, I don’t want my expectations to be disappointed - I know that they won’t be, the duffers haven’t disappointed me before.

However as well as this, I’m nervous because of course - I’m aware that the trailer may be m*leven positive so unfortunately, they (m*levens) will run with that and rub it in our faces which just makes me sad because how dumb are they seriously? Of course it’s going to be m*leven positive, why? Because byler is considered ‘plot twist’ to the GA and half of the ‘fans’. They aren’t gonna spoil that plot straight up, which is why they are so secretive about byler - it’s going to be endgame. So people, don’t fear if there is m*leven in the trailer. Mike and Will are literally the two of the main focuses this season, and we know via leaks that they’ll be paired up this season. So expect the actual season to be Byler positive.

If they put byler in the trailer, I think they will but like in group shots or just one or two frames of them together alone, I don’t think that means “oh no!” for us either. I mean we know shits going down next season of course, so be scared for Mike and Will’s mental health definitely. But I think they’ll put byler in the trailer, solely to slowly introduce the viewers to it AND to establish the pairings so again don’t fear if byler IS in the trailer. It’s a win for us.

And lastly, remaining neutral / no byler or m*levens shots. This could happen due to not start any ship wars, and to actually focus more on the main fighting plot which the duffers said they wanted to focus on. Don’t get me wrong, they still care for the characters relationships and developments but for the trailer ,which is mainly marketed to the GA and the fans too of course, they are going to keep it mainly generic since most people won’t even would have remembered what happened last season or the dynamics between characters. So more fighting, and generic shots shown.

Not sure which one we’ll end up with, but please remember to never lose byler doubt!! Stay bylering bylers!!

*cough cough* sorry if I was harsh but it’s been a 3 year constant battle for byler so i need a lil vacation soon (s5) *cough cough*

[captain-evil-bastard]

honestly i don't think mileven is endgame at all. like little to no chance. byler though is either gonna be open ended, hinted, or explicitly shown and i'm 100% sure of that, although i REALLY think the focus of s5 will be them mending their platonic relationship further. i think so there's less backlash they'll attempt to let general audiences see how they work as a pair EQUALLY unlike mileven, as well as showing that they work together on more levels than instantly getting into a relationship (ik they've been friends for years but the duffers have to make up for how mike was to will in a good chunk of s3-4).

overall i think the ACTUAL chances of the 'byler kiss' are pretty slim, but i'm not opposed to being proved wrong. we have to remember that this show has a shit ton of characters despite the focus on will this season and that they ALL need to have some loose ends tied up still as well (praying on that hopper and el duo and dustin angst arc loll)

i don't think many people will actually be upset by the implication of byler in the show aside from hardcore mileven shippers (nobody really had heavy backlash for will crushing on mike so...). i can tell you that most fans are ship neutral, if not against mileven because of their related breakups.

so overall? byler will be canon one way or another, but realistically it's not gonna be super-duper lovey dovey (considering mike is still theoretically deep in the closet). and honestly? that's still really satisfying for a mainstream show to have a significant, well built-up queer arc.

ALSO while i consider myself to be relatively objective and logical i could be wrong. argue with me! tag this when s5 rolls around and it's revealed that will is actually vecnas son and mike was a mass hallucination from stranger things fans!

[grandmasterinsider]

Analyse what the ST cast said about Byler and why?

Hey fellas,

So I wanted to talk about the stranger things cast being suspicious these last two years.

NOAH SCHNAPP constantly shipping byler. His posts, and fan photos, and interviews are pretty hard to understand. I mean he did came out as gay 2022 after he stated the homosexuality of his ST character Will Byers. And I'm wondering about why he would say things like:

'Shipping byler over anything, vol. 2 now!!'

And his several photoshoots with byler fans; for example:

Is he possibly queer baiting?

I mean as a gay man it would be pretty rude to queer bait. I actually think he is just a teenage boy having Will byers as his role model. And shipping a gay couple because he wants to show that he cares about other queer/gay people.

And I'm not sure if he knows how the show's going to end, but like... as an actor he may already know how S5 is going to end. And I'm talking about IF this is going to end up queer bait, which fact I'm not really able to exclude, because the possibility is there.

I do not trust the duffers a 100%. But since this is a show for the outcasted ones I remain on the side of byler endgame. It would mean Mike Wheeler is not the Jackass the mileven shippers are so fond of and the show wouldn't be ruined.

Then there is this interview with DAVID HARBOUR:

He is a very nice guy and at the time I've seen this interview I was really insecure and confused. He said:

"I don't think- I don't-I mean I don't think there's a turn in Mike. Mike's um you know pretty clear he seems to love 11. So I'm sorry for all you...what do you call it? By-byl-byler? I don't know if your ship is going to sail"

Video:

I was damn shocked as I heard his speech and did not quite catch up. He may wanted to warn us about getting queerbaited, because like he shouldn't be allowed to say something like that. If he is allowed to, that means the duffers have no problem with the cast yelling around spoilers? I really am clueless why he said that, and what his intentions were. The only suitable reason I can find, he is baiting the milevens or warning us from getting queerbaited in the final season. 🤷‍♂️

BUT the actual surprising statement I've heard from came from FINN WOLFHARD:

Do you remember the fans asking him several times about which ship he prefers? BYLER OR MILEVEN? And do you remember him always refusing to answer that question? Each time the fans came up with that question he said 'everyone should ship who they wanna ship' or 'The ships are for the fans'. So why did he choose one of them all of a sudden? And WHICH ship he has chosen and HOW: First he talks about byler being this popular ship and then ending up mumbling he would choose Mileven just because of the starting at the beginning.

And the thing that actually surprised me was not that he had chosen Mileven, but the fact that he was CLEARLY LYING.

His body language just started to get more nervous than it already was and he literally starred eyes fixed on a point in front of him avoiding looking at anyone and this monotone voice as he was speaking: "I would choose Mileven just because of the starting at the beginning." And immediately looking annoyed and confused as the fans screamed, raising slightly his microphone hand: The F you're doing??

Finn is a nice person who is friends with NOAH SCHNAPP and showed support, so why would he so easily change his mind and choose between those ships. Maybe he is warning us from getting queerbaited, because he really seemed like he didn't wanted to answer that question and acted obviously weird?

The full Video:

So yeah, that's what I thought was going on there. Just like I said I believe in Byler, but I'm also analyzing, and it is pretty confusing and I'm not 100% sure what went wrong!

What do you think?

[ven0moir]

As much as Bylers say they have 300+ slides of Byler "proof", and that they have psychologists and lawyers and film people on their side, I feel like you forget that Byler is a THEORY.

Everything you present can also be interpreted as platonic Byler from Mike's side. And hey, your interpretation of the show matters and is important, but calling other people stupid for not seeing the "Byler vision" is just plain wrong.

Nobody is denying that Mike deeply cares for and loves Will, but the writers haven't really made an effort to show us it's romantic, argue with the wall. Even you Bylers say that "Mike's POV is hidden from us" or whatever because you're AWARE that they haven't done enough to show it.

If I cared about Mileven, I would refute your "evidence" and reframe it from a Mileven perspective, even though I don't think they're endgame either. Mileven not being endgame doesn't immediately mean Byler is. As someone whose favorite character is Mike, you Bylers and Milevens both seem to ignore the root cause of his insecurity: feeling like he needs to be with someone romantically to matter. And that's what the show will subvert.

Even among you you can't agree on what Mike's arc is supposed to be. Because you're projecting shit onto him. Will is going to get a love interest (And maybe that's Chance like you seem to believe), but it's NOT going to be Mike.

hi anon! so it's not my job to convince you of anything and I'm not gonna try to bc that's the Duffer's job. And I'm honestly tired. SO MANY Bylers have gone above and beyond to try to explain why Byler is happening and you just don't wanna see it anyway.

But since you seem invested enough to have sent this anon, let's review something you guys don't seem to appreciate much. The FACTS, centering only one scene:

You said that Bylers can't agree on what Mike's arc is with the whole POV being hidden from us thing, so my question to you is: What's happening in this scene, in your opinion? Because Byler deniers also can't agree on what's actually going on in this specific scene.

Some say Mike's just awkward bc he knows Will likes him, others say that he's just awkward bc he hasn't seen Will in a while, etc. The thing y'all agree on, that us Bylers ALSO agree on is that: Mike was awkward. That's a FACT.

But for some reason y'all choose to ignore this:

( also, if someone knows the Byler who first made this discovery please let me know bc what an absolute queen )

This is SUBTEXT, yes, but it's not entirely "up for interpretation"--I'd actually love to see your counterargument to this.

This scene is from the Chamber of Secrets, which ...

is on the S4 DNA board.

Many Bylers like to call this a "parallel" but let's not even call it that: what we're REALLY seeing here, is writer's intent. These are the facts: They watched this movie, which is an INSPIRATION for them, and DECIDED to recreate the Awkward Tension™ that they saw in this scene, but with MIKE ( in Hermione's shoes ) and WILL ( in Ron's shoes ).

If they REALLY had to do this, why not do it like this:

Will in Hermione's shoes as the #Awkward one, and Mike in Ron's shoes as the #Confused one. Just, imagine it like that for one second.

no Byler would be referencing this scene as "Byler Proof" if they had done it that way. Even MILVENS would've accepted it as "Proof that Will likes Mike" because it wouldn't be perceived as a threat to their ship or whatever.

As for Chance, Bychance is going to be "Byler proof" to Mike ( lmao ) bc seeing them together confirms to Mike, without a shadow of a doubt, that Will Likes Boys.

"omg there's no time / Will would never / its bad writing / it doesn't make any sense / *insert other anti-bychance arguments here*"

Sure, maybe. Again, not my job to convince you of anything, just ... check this out and tell me what you think it means? But considering the first requirement to maybe possibly entertaining the idea that the writers might be hinting at Bychance, is to Believe Byler Is Endgame ( and you don't meet that requirement ), I guess I'm asking for too much.

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.

[dukeofdelirium]

re the El is a part of Will theory, I don't get how more people don't subscribe to it? Not only does it make so much sense - I literally cant unsee it now, esp. with all the media references ST makes - it pretty much guarantees Byler endgame (I mean we know Byler was gonna happen regardless if El was "real" or not, since Byler is the story). Seeing people get so angry over the theory, calling the Duffers shit writers over it, I don't get it... I know people like to project on El and see her as this sweet angel that must be protected but after seeing all the evidence I will be legit surprised if it doesn't turn out to be true

Yeah, I’m in the same boat. I’m curious how they will depict it all, obviously, and I have some ideas myself that may or may not happen (and I’m putting them in my WIP byler fic lol), but still. I would be surprised myself if El didn’t turn out to be a creation of Will’s.

There’s too much reference to alter egos, doppelgängers, someone’s personality being “split” in two, etc for it to be a coincidence. And that isn’t even including the media references that depict the same concept, most notably the neverending story, but there’s others too.

Here’s my theory: when Will was taken, he was originally going to be kidnapped and killed by Lonnie. However, Vecna, who was by this point basically living in Will’s mindscape (the upside down), knew this and appeared instead to basically take Will before Lonnie could. In a way, I guess you could say he saved him, for selfish reasons but still.

Anyway, Will encountering Vecna in the shed, is so terrified that he creates Eleven. He “splits”, and when he’s taken, she then appears in his place. She is strong enough to rescue him whereas he can’t save himself. So she “dies” at the end and he returns. So on and so forth.

Now I know her being created at this instant has holes because of the timeline. Some possible explanation is that if Will has the power to create, then why couldn’t her creation essentially ripple back through time, changing it so that she existed for longer, so that people have memory of her, etc? This could explain some of the time travel imagery and hints… imo, it won’t be conventional time travel. Or maybe the timeline is wrong. Idk lol, someone add to this if I’m making any sense 🤣 I think of it like a time loop

They will time travel somehow, through Will, or more specifically through memory, his memory? That’s my feeling on it. Or maybe the key is Mike.. he’s always late every season. Maybe he will be the time traveler in this scenario. Idk lol.

I could be way off on some of these thoughts, but regardless I do think he created Eleven and maybe they won’t depict it even somewhat how I picture, but the theory stands and I believe it 100%

[evilbookworm]

Answering dumb milkvan arguments I’ve seen on YouTube and Reddit because I don’t have accounts on there.

“There weren’t that many gay people in the 80”s! Robin and Will is already pushing it!” There were gay people in the 80”s. They were just scared of being dragged through the streets. Being gay isn’t a statistic. Anyone can be gay. You can’t just base it off a number. That’s just stupid. Like saying that there’s too many people of different race or nationality in your friend group. Find a better argument.

2. “But Mike and El have been endgame since season 1!” Ok, first of all, El was originally supposed to die, so no, they haven’t been endgame since s1. And last time I checked, the first meaningful interaction in the show was between Mike and Will. Not very concrete.

3. “Bylers look too much into things! What does the camera angle have to do with the ship??” Everything. It has everything to do with it. If you milkvans would stop and pay attention for once, you’d see the things we do. Basic cinematography tells you that you’re meant to interpret everything. Mike bathed in bisexual and gay lighting? Not a coincidence. Mike and Wills interaction at the airport being directly paralleled to the scene between Ron and Hermione in HPATCOS (not to mention it was also on the duffers list of movies that inspired them)? Not just a happy accident. So stop. Think before you make stupid points.

4. “Oh but heterosexual relationships are the norm, so obviously milkvan is going to be canon!” First of all, there are so many things wrong with this argument. Starting with the fact that there’s obvious homophobia coming from this statement, and remind me, why are you a fan of a show that villainizes homophobia??? Not to mention the fact that this is the piece of evidence you’re relying on, and not something from the actual ship, or show, for the matter, tells me plenty about how that couple is going to go down.

Anyways yeah long rant that was but it just really annoyed me.