#like … the duffers are wrong if they are not endgame

[a-shade-of-green]

am i delusional? yes.

am i too hopeful for my own good? yes.

do i still think that the byler first kiss, if not confirming flickergate, will at least happen in the Upside Down to Bowie's Heroes because "the shame is on the other side"?

...yes

[jonathanbyersphd]

Now listen I know we don’t have scripts for this scene but I also know that the script says “Nancy’s breath catches”

[rybonucleic-ket]

3am discoveries with ryan :D

if my antidepressants have numbed my emotions so much that I don't cry when a family member dies, all I gotta do is rewatch st4 finale on repeat and soon I'll be sobbing my eyes out :)))

fuck off, medication induced emotional apathy, I'll make myself cry. really gotta do everything myself around here goddamn.

realizing that making myself cry so I can feel like a normal person with emotions is definitely not a normal person with emotions thing to do.

[ghostlycleric]

With all these leaks floating around I feel like it’s important to remember one thing:

There is no such thing as a trustworthy, credible leaker.

I don’t care if you get leaks from your own mom who works in production. I don’t care if you get leaks from the Duffers themselves. No matter who they’re from, you’re playing a game of whisper down the lane.

You have to remember that anyone can pretend to be a credible source. You have to remember that any real original sources still have their own internal biases and interpretations of a limited scope of the show. You have to remember that leaks lose their credibility the more mouths they pass through. You have to remember that even the most trustworthy people can lie. There will always be inevitable missing context, misinterpretation, and/or lies.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were people on set specifically told to spread fake information to leakers. There could also be specific pieces of true/half true information they allow to spread. Production is well aware that people are trying to pry into the contents of season 5.

All these leak accounts are looking for engagements, for noise around their posts. That’s why most leaks pertain to the mileven/byler love triangle. Any leak that claims mileven or byler endgame should honestly just be thrown to the side immediately. That leaker would have to know ALL of the context of every scene of them filmed and where they fit on a timeline to be able to say that. We can expect time travel/flashbacks/Vecna visions in s5, so they’d have to account for that too. A person with access to that knowledge has too much to lose to break their NDAs and tell random people on the internet spoilers.

The only things you can trust (once AI is ruled out) are pictures and videos. Even with those, you have to remember that they’re taken out of context. (There’s also actor location, which is sort of safe to trust since it has nothing to do with the contents of the show. Everything that comes from actor location is speculation.)

Some leaks will be right. Some almost right. Many will be wrong.

Have fun with the leaks, but be careful if you choose to use them to build expectations of season 5.

[carigm]

About Dyersfilm’s “leak”

For all of you who don’t know, dyersfilm is an insufferable individual who used to go by the name of swiftlynatalia. She is racist, homophobic, transphobic, and even made fun of her supposed favorite actress’ eating disorder. However, people on Twitter (especially mlvns) entertain her because she had reliable sources during the filming of S4, and after during post production. She had some true leaks, many being the same that Reddit got right, while others only she had. She was also wrong about quite a few things, but generally she was reliable.

It is worth noting though that she is extremely biased against byler (many of the leaks she got wrong for S4 were pertaining their storyline) and absolutely hates the ship.

This time around, she was getting some leaks during the first couple of months of filming to her curious cat, but she herself claimed that these were not reliable leaks whatsoever and that she was pissed because this time she doesn’t have access to the real sources she had for S4. She has complained about this repeatedly for these past few months. The leaks she has gotten tho, many she has mocked and made fun of because they don’t align with what she wants from the show. She also made a “disclaimer” when the show started filming again that she would not be posting leaks about Byler because she hates us all, and yet every single one of those most likely fake leaks she got she posted, and many of them talked about Byler. She would post them and mock them for “clearly being untrue”. She has barely gotten a single Mlvn positive leak this whole time, and when she’s gotten at least something that alludes to them having scenes together she immediately ran to post it and alert all her friends, even tho she herself knows all of these are most likely fake.

For weeks now, her curious cat has been dry af because I guess nda’s are stronger this time, or no one wants to leak shit to her (she’s rude as hell). she posted the following ask 10 days ago. Someone asked her if she knew about any Mike and El scenes and she said no. Keep this in mind for what’s coming next…

Then suddenly yesterday, she alluded to a Jonathan spoiler she’s supposedly pissed about, but refused to post it like she’s done for everything else. People quickly thought it might involve Byler because she said she wasn’t going to post “leaks” about it, even though she had already lol. So they asked her and she said that “yes, it has to do with Byler.”

Then shortly after this someone asked about Mlvn again, this was just today. Again, note how she proceeds to say she knows nothing about Mlvn 😭

Bylers on Twitter noticed her answers about Mlvn and her comment about a supposed byler leak involving Jonathan and started speculating. She ofc noticed this, and not even after an hour of her saying she knows nothing about Mlvn she goes on to say this.

….

She knows nothing but somehow she knows Mlvn is stable? The bipolar disorder of these answers could rival my own bipolar.

Mind you, we all know that she would’ve jumped up at the first opportunity to post any leak that implied Will was pining and miserable, her and her friends would’ve had a field day over it. And yet, she only clarifies this after…

Not to mention how utterly ridiculous this all is. They’ve filmed stuff up until episode 4 (from what we know), why the hell would Will be pining and hung up over Mike if Mlvn is endgame? That makes absolutely no fucking sense. They would have him immediately fully patch things up with Mike and move on, not be hung up on someone he can’t have in the middle of an apocalypse. Especially not after the Duffers said he’s getting a happy ending. Will getting a happy ending but still being in love with Mike halfway through the last season with Mlvn being endgame is absolute lunacy.

Especially when you consider the fact that narratively, in a sense, Will has already moved on. He doesn’t expect anything from Mike, he doesn’t think Mike can like him back. He saw Mike confess his love in front of El, he helped that confession happen. Will literally has no problem with Mlvn anymore pls 😭 He saved them!!

This is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever read.

Will is somehow upset at Mike not feeling the same way…when Will already believes Mike doesn’t feel the same and doesn’t ever expect any reciprocation 😭

Either she’s wildly twisting this supposed leak out of context to fit her own perceived narrative of what should happen, or she’s straight up lying about this.

And we know she’s lying about Mlvn so…you people decide what you think of this buffoonery lol.

Wait for Reddit leaks y’all. This woman could get a legit leak saying Byler is endgame and dig her own grave before posting it.

[thefirstlioveyou]

it's the fact the duffers aren't even going above and beyond to hide mike's feelings for will. like... mike's romantic interest in s4 is so painfully obvious and it lies all in his behavior, the directing and the acting choices. it's literally watching any other "love triangle" trope. everyone would see it if will was a girl. they aren't trying to hide it.

but here's the thing: the duffers know the heteronormative perspective people have, and they're using those people to their advantage to pull off a plot twist. they seem to REALLY love doing that given the fact they've already did it once before with robin and steve. they really dgaf and will do it again

i genuinely do believe byler's endgame and specifically mike's journey with his sexuality in s5 will open many people's eyes to stop seeing everything through a heteronormative lens - to stop always expecting the societal standard in media. they'll realize all the clues had been laid out in front of them, and realize their unintentional ignorance. they'll realize how engraved this perspective is in us, how it's not our fault, and how we can learn to discard of it.

and of course, there will still be people who refuse to accept they were wrong. there will be people who refuse to accept a character wasn't straight like they thought. they'll call it misleading, bad writing, fan service, misogynistic, uncomfortable, sexualizing children, going woke, etc,. they will turn down any evidence or proof that had been there in plain sight. they will come up with a million excuses. and at that point, it's not ignorance; it's just homophobia.

despite the expected negative response it will have, i want byler to happen. i want byler to cause the internet to break, articles to be coming out rapidly, analysis videos just barely finding out the clues we got called delusional for, overhearing it being talked about in public places - and it will happen!! every season release is like a literal holiday season. stranger things is a phenomenon that never ends. so without a doubt byler will be part of that discussion and their impact is gonna be so freaking big 🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️

[bibylers]

Okay, so I’m just gonna say, I’m a BYLER, so bear with me as I say this. 😭

I just watched stranger things s1-2 with my mom and, tbh, I never even realised how much I LOVE mileven in s1 & s2.

Their storyline is made so well and I just LOVE ITTT

Don’t even get me started on the:

“I never gave up on you. I called you every night for-“

“353 days. I heard.”

LIKE OH MY GOD? THAT SHIT HAS MY HEART MELTING EVERY SINGLE TIME.

And I’m like FULL ON MILEVEN OBSESSED everytime after watching s1 or s2, like I LOVE their relationship, their storyline, everything in s1-2, BUT, the MILLISECOND I start watching s3, IT ALL JUST COMES CRASHING DOWN.

Like, WHYY duffers???

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE byler, but like genuinely, I would’ve loved seeing mileven’s storyline continue as it was; emotionally strong, great storyline, just chef’s kiss. But in s3 the whole teenage drama romance (the breaking up and all of that) just RUINS IT ALL FOR MEE 😭

Then s3 ends with THIS, and it’s supposed to make me love mileven again????

Like what???? NOOOOOO 😭😭

Mike’s eyes, WIDE OPEN during the kiss?? Then followed by THIS LOOK??

LIKE WHATTTT???? WHHHAAAAAAAT

Then onto season 4, as much as I LOVE byler, I can’t help but sometimes wonder how adorable mileven could’ve been in s4, if it wasn’t for the duffers just once again, LETTING IT GO. 😭

I understand that they’re most likely doing it to make byler endgame in s5, and I LOVE THAT, but at the same time I’m like: “okay but imagine HEALTHY and EMOTIONALLY STRONG mileven from s1-s2 as endgame??” 😔

But as it looks, it’s most likely not going to be that.

Mostly why I love them SM in s1-s2 it’s because of EL.

Like El deserves SO MUCH love. But obviously in s3-4, we’re slowly being shown that Mike doesn’t give enough of that to her, and that makes my heart literally BREAK for her.

But also, we’ve been shown that El is also, OBVIOUSLY, better off focusing on herself so she can truly understand herself and learn about herself, like ANY OTHER PERSON WOULD.

Because it literally looked like she was about to get that sense of self understanding and learning in s3 when she spends time with Max, but then that immediately just gets interrupted with the horror storyline coming back.

LIKE NOOO LET HER HAVE HER MOMENT PLEASEE 🙏🏼😩

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.

[henrysglock]

Uh okay so some spoilers for a full theory post I have coming up (because I have RECEIPTS :sob:), but unfortunately I can't support byler endgame anymore. Morally, it's just not right.

After seeing The First Shadow, I'm completely convinced that that Brenner is Will (BTTF style). With Henry acting so much like Mike (comes from a stereotypically "normal" family that's actually quite detached, sweet, gawkish, nerdy, trying so hard to be normal, destroying everything to date some "stupid girl"...Brenner's words, not mine)...Well. You all know I'm not one to shy away from acknowledging The Cycles.

Unfortunately...I have to retract my byler posts. I was totally wrong back in 2022/2023. There's absolutely no way byler is going to be endgame, and everything we saw between Mike and Will was just subtext pointing to Will's future "predator but for good" behavior irt Henry.

I hope bylers aren't going to be too devastated when this all comes to fruition. I'd advise y'all to start preparing yourself for the worst: Byler physically can't be endgame because Will time-travels back to try and pull a kill-baby-Hitler on Henry, and then falls for him because he reminds him so much of Mike. That's what El was referring to when she said Brenner "could not let go" of Henry. He couldn't let go, couldn't kill him, created this whole mess...because Henry reminds him of Mike.

The Duffers love subverting tropes, and this is how they're going to subvert Will's "good boy who's never done a single thing wrong" hero trope: By giving him the moral greyness that every other character but him seems to have at this point.

So...yeah. This is me cutting ties with byler. World's most massive ick.

[upsideoutinsidedown]

“Will doesn’t need a relationship to be happy”.

This is something I’ve seen people throw out there as to why Byler shouldn’t have to end up together for Will to have a happy ending and that anyone who says otherwise is reducing Will’s character to his sexuality. I think it needs to be addressed why that view is simply ignorant.

First off, I don't care that Will is gay. Will Byers became my favourite character back in the first season when he had a total of like fourteen minutes of screen time. I enjoyed watching the cast's reactions to his absence, and the goodness of his character shown in the flashbacks we see. I remember thinking "how impactful he must've been on these characters' lives for his absence to drive the story for an entire season," and the more I got to know him in subsequent seasons, the more I liked him. So, when it was teased, implied and ultimately confirmed that Will was gay, I couldn't care less. His sexuality didn't change how I felt about him in any way, but it did change how his narrative could be perceived.

Will being gay is a core part of his identity. If Mike and Will were not the intended endgame couple, the duffers wrote themselves into a corner by how they handled Will's sexuality, because of the message they are giving by committing to that representation. Will being gay is not the problem. Will being gay, canonically in love with Mike, and willing to sacrifice his own feelings for a heterosexual relationship is the problem.

I, personally, am a big fan of "don't need to be in a relationship to be happy" endings. In fact, it's what I'm hoping for with El, and if season four had been handled differently, I would like it for Will too, but the fact of the matter is, that's not what happened. They built up Will's feelings for Mike over several seasons, even despite the distance (both figuratively and literally) between them in between seasons, and now they have to commit because the truth of the matter is, gay people do not have the same representation straight people have in media.

A heterosexual character could go through the exact same romantic arc as Will and still not end up in a relationship without it feeling like a cop-out simply because there is a lot more positive heterosexual representation than there is gay representation. It is essential to understand that there is a difference in the message being sent simply because of the character's sexuality. Whereas the heterosexual character's journey's message would end up being "sometimes it doesn't work out, but that doesn't make the love felt any less profound," the gay character's journey's message would instead come across as "a same-sex romance is not as profound as an opposite-sex romance." Will, especially, in the van scene, where he used his own feelings to promote El, would be telling the story of how the best a gay character could offer would be to sacrifice their own feelings.

Now, I'm not gay. Despite being ace (♠/♢), I don't even consider myself to be a member of the LGBT+ community (not that there's anything wrong with identifying as LGBT+ if you do share my sexual identity). But I understand the importance of good, and positive, representation of LGBT+ characters in media, as well as the damage bad representation, whether intentional or otherwise, could cause.

And ignorance is not a sin. I wouldn't disparage someone for not understanding the implications, but willful ignorance on the other hand is different. You don't have to ship Byler, but you should understand why the ship is important and why it not being endgame would be so devastating even after it's been explained to you.

[emblazons]

I'm gonna keep it 300: Once I realized that byler v mlvn (at least in canon) was never a competition of "ships" or even heteronormativity versus queer rep but a conversation about thematic points being made by the duffers, I ceased feeling any real doubt about the outcome of this segment of the intertwined character narratives.

Why? Because The Duffers (while notoriously mum about their plotlines and twists) are vocal as hell about what they value & what "lessons" they're trying to drive home.

With The Duffers (unlike a lot of TV writers today) its "find the thematic line and you find the endgame plot." That's literally it. And tbh, even if I was someone who couldn't stand byler for whatever reason, from a narrative theme perspective, its pretty clear that

"15 year old boy who both longs for and fears the consequences of nonconformity finds the bravery to get out of a relationship that fuels those insecurities while leaning into his relationship with his fellow-nonconforming best friend"

tracks more with The Duffers value system than

"boy and his superhero love interest spend their 5th consecutive season barely seeing eye to eye on interests and problem-solving while relying on other people who know them better than they know each other to fix their relationship before dramatically separating and coming back in a melodramatic flourish."

Like. I don't even need to do more mental work than that to understand whats happening with this part of the story, because after 7 entire years of watching the rest of the show, its clear they'e written Mike and El into the same corner that's broken up every other dysfunctional relationship in Stranger Things, from Stncy to Joyce and Bob: a lack of common interest and a lack of common goals.

When you look at that, and combine it w/ any knowledge of the—

"What's wrong with playing DnD as an adult" "we are nerds and children at heart" "we hated HS & did other people's assignments to stay relevant" "one of us married a fellow horror fan who shares our interests (Ross) and the other has decided not to officially partner (Matt)"

—Duffer Brothers? lmao.

The only snag I ever hit trying to understand that was the S3 tone shift...and even they admit that was their narrative "play" season, which (however you feel about that as a writing decision) says every single thing about what's gonna happen when things get "more serious" (while moving back to S1 energy) in S5. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[bylerpolls]

if someone is a superfan who has watched the show many times like us and is still convinced mlvn is endgame (and they just don’t see the byler vision), what does that primarily suggest?

A) They have poor media literacy

B) They are genuinely homophobic

C) They are heteronormative and struggle to notice queer themes/subtext/coding

D) They underestimate the duffers and think the story would never be as deep as we believe

E) They are very literal-minded and can’t see subtext/anything not explicitly canon. M11 is endgame because they are dating on screen.

F) They don’t think Will is important to the story because El has had more screentime and has superpowers. If Will isn’t important, why would his feelings for Mike be important?

G) They are blinded by bias/their mlvn internet circle/possibly their hate for Will in some cases

H) The monologue has bamboozled them. There’s no way anything else can be endgame when someone monologues their love to their gf.

I) maybe they are correct. maybe we’re the ones who are wrong/misguided. If they are just as committed fans as us, why are we convinced we’re the ones wielding The Text correctly?

J) They project themselves onto El or Mike and think that M11 is the height of romance, and everything is filtered through that. They probably have an unhealthy understanding of romance.

K) something else

[booksandpaperss]

I was asked to explain what I meant when I said that Stranger Things season 4 was meant to mimic Act 4 of a Shakespeare tragedy, and I said I was too tired to explain but then I of course immediately listed out the reasons, so here’s a watered down version of what I mean by this bc I am a high school senior struggling mentally but I’m also a Shakespeare nerd:

General goalposts that tell you you’re in Act 4 of a Shakespeare Tragedy:

-it becomes apparent that the previous 3 Acts were only a slow buildup filled with clues and that things hadn’t actually started to “get real” until now

-more characters start dying

-the true purpose of a main character’s arc is revealed

-endgame is set up and foreshadowed

-something goes horribly wrong and shit starts hitting the fan. Things haven’t gone completely off the rails yet, but you can tell they’re going to

-the main character’s plans take a huge a left turn

-it becomes a apparent that the true end result tragedy of it all has not been what you as the reader had been previously lead to believe in the first 3 acts

-absolutely nothing is resolved. Maybe some questions are answered, but more are created because of them, and it’s clear things are only going to get worse before any resolution is reached

Any of this sound extremely familiar? Bc if you were paying attention to the season like most of you claim, then all of it should. Season 4 was, essentially, meant to be like a tragedy. To quote the duffers, it was their “Empire Strikes Back season” (which fyi Star Wars also draws a lot of inspo from the Shakespearean Tragedy structure, like most popular media. This is far from unusual). The main characters were supposed to screw up big time and make detrimental mistakes, and character arcs were never supposed to be resolved in the slightest. It wasn’t meant to be like the previous seasons where everything at the end stayed relatively rounded out and contained. If season 4 is like Act 4 of a Shakespeare Tragedy, then season 1-3 are like Acts 1-3. A steady build with clues layed out for the finale, but nothing explodes in the characters faces yet.

Now, do I think this intention for season 4 could’ve been carried out better? Absolutely. Volume 1 was well done, but with volume 2 it feels like the duffers took the aspects I just listed out and pasted them into their story with Elmer’s glue. This is probably because they wrote volume 2 without the rest of the writers room, and don’t get me wrong I don’t think it’s bad, I just think it could’ve been less clunky, but I’m getting into a different conversation now.

The point here is that once you understand the intent that the writers and the duffers had with season 4 in this context, the writing choices themselves make a lot more sense, and you should be able to see and understand how season 4 set up season 5 with the potential to be an absolutely amazing finale with a good payoff to what we’ve now established was the literal Tragedy of season 4.

[bylerconfessions]

Sometimes I worry that I'm suffering from extreme confirmation bias and that we as Bylers are setting ourselves up for embarrassment when it's revealed that the Duffers were just writing a fairly conventional show all along like they all think, and Mike was always intended to be the straight self-insert everyman character. And I'm worried it wasn't even queerbait either (at least not originally, maybe now it would be due to marketing). They truly just accidentally made him seem queer. I fear that because by all appearances, the Duffers are straight nerds. And on the surface Mike is pretty similar to other straight nerd teen characters from 80s media.

Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is usually true) and all that. I'm worried they might not see anything wrong with Will being the gay kid who crushes on his straight best friend, and they might see Mike lovingly rejecting Will as a happy ending. Would they really plan out all these intense, complex, brilliant Byler theories and shift away the cultural conversation around their show from being a fun, entertaining, scary time with catchy 80s songs like Running Up that Hill to being "the show that suddenly went gay in the final season." A lot of people are comfortable with Robin being a girl liker, but Mike being a boy liker and kissing a boy might be a bridge too far.

Also, Bylers are SO confident in Byler, so I worry we're too overconfident. We openly mock and taunt the dumb GA, the media illiterate Milevens, the Reddit dudebros... everyone. But doesn't pride come before a fall? We could be so horribly wrong about the intentions of the creators and that would be super embarrassing and they'd never stop gloating and being homophobic. I mean, weren't we wrong about Volume II? (Many Bylers believed Mike was gonna come out and ride off with Will into the sunset at the end of the season, but instead he monologued to El about how much he "loves" her).

But then I rewatch the show and see how gay Mike obviously is, and I'm like, "Nah, Byler endgame is literally in the bag."

yea like volume 2 is always reminding me “hey what u think is gonna happen could be the inverse!!!”

and also most discussions in the byler community talk about byler like it’s canon, so if it’s not what we gonna do???

[elpis-simps]

Okay I just found out something. So we all know Captain Marvel. (BTW this post is for marvel fans) and her movie. I've watched that movie multiple times. Love it, I think it's written fairly well, great CGI, funny script, good lore and story, love how everything ties in, overall its a really good movie; and captain marvel is one of my favourite superheroes, and one of the most badass.

WHY THE F*CK do people think she's a "bad movie and bad superhero" like it's one of the really good B.E movies! (Before Endgame)

**I'm using B.E as Befoee Endgame because A.E (after endgame) is arguably the worse marvel era. Don't get me wrong, it has some great stuff in A.E, but B.E is just better overall.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I think k Brie Larson was a great actress and did really well portraying the character Captain Marvel. Not to mention captain marvel was one of the overpowered superheroes in the B.E era, before they started making everyone OP to defeat big CGI villains and to make their movies more action packed to get more views and stuff. She had good plotline, good powers, cool backstory, funny, and genuinely one of my favourite female superheroes.

I would love to see her as the new face of the MCU, A.E. considering they killed off what was generally considered the "face" of the MCU, Iron Man and Captain America, they haven't put much focus on one or two specific people to be aforementioned face.

Captain marvel hasn't been killed off, she has amazing potential, and she's personally one of my favourite 'Big Badass Backup To Fight Big Strong Villain" in those "No hope left" moments.

I don't understand the hate on her. May e its because she was, along with Natasha Romanff, one of the first female superheroes on-screen in the MCU. Sexism is a big thing in movies and stuff, but I have some reasons why I think she and another person- who I will mention later- should be the next 'Face of the MCU'.

1: the previous 'face' duo was Iron man and Captain America. So it sta ds to reason, along with what marvel has been doing to be more racially and gender inclusive, that we should have 2 female superheroes.

Yes I know the whole 'really overexaggerated feminist film superhero plotline new budget annoying superhero to earn more money and get higher ratings' thing is annoying; but hear me out.

Point 2: I have a few options, but to continue off of point 1; I feel like a good combo would be The Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel. (Wanda Maximoff and Carol Danvers)

They are both powerful, badass, good storyline, great actors behind them heroes/characters. They could make for a good duo to contrast from the B.E duo of men.

Point 3: yes u know that Wanda is 'dead' BUT before the rocks fell on her, you could clearly see a flash of RED MAGIC in the rocks. After the entire Dr Strange MoM (multiverse of madness) plotline was 'Scarlet Witch has grown in power she's following us into DUFFERENT DIMENSIONS and was prophesied since the DAWN OF TIME, and has unlocked much more of her powers, I HIGHLY doubt some normal old rocks would kill her.

It's just unlikely considering how obscure some of marvels foreshadowing has been, we know that they foreshadow films that come out like 3 years later.

Point 4: moving away from Captain Marvel and Wanda, how about a new duo.

Bucky Barnes and Yelena Belova. Its similar to the old duo of Captain America (man out of time, from 1940, soldier) and Iron Man (normal human, with special training/ gear that is one of the only things that makes them super.)

This duo would be interesting, especially as we've seen both bucky AND yelena on an official marvel movie poster together.

I personally love both characters;and it pays homage to the golden age of marvel B.E.

Bucky is homage to Captain America (obviously) and Yelena is homage to both Iron Man AND Natasha Romanoff.

And it could allow for more opportunity of the old age to come shining back through the new age, in the form of two humans, who have a rivalry,

(I think it would be interesting to have bucky and yelena to have a mild rivalry at least, considering we chose them due to there similarities with the old duo, cap and stark)

Who are also enhanced in ways that gives them an advantage in fighting, and it could give a lot of opportunity to save marvel. And bucky is a fan favourite character, so considering marvels reputation going down now their movies are getting worse COMPARED TO B.E, I think this could be a great way to bring the nostalgia of the old movies back.

So my original rant was about captain marvel being hated. Sorry for making you read all this, and if you have read everything here, I thank you immensely for giving me the time and chance.

I really miss the B.E era, and hate how they kill off all the OG great characters for new, sh*ttier superheros like Kamala Khan.

So here is just some ideas in my passionate rant which I would love to see. I love Wanda and Captain marvel, but personally I think I would prefer the Winter Soldier and White Widow duo because it would need less fancy magic CGI, and give the film(s) they appear in a more B.E and better quality feel then just a bunch of CGI that takes away from the quality of the movie and storyline, and the lack of CGI ( I mean the bright magic flashy stuff they constantly use in A.E, not the general cgi they more often use in B.E)

Would give the film(s) a better, more enostalgic, more authentic, emotional, just overall better film quality and plotline.

[lordystrange]

I think I know who dies in S5. (I really hope I’m wrong)

It’s f*cking depressing and I’m still holding onto hope that nobody’s dying (except Vecna or some side characters like Karen) but here me out.

This scene, which we think foreshadows the endgame couples, doesn’t have lumax there:

Ofc we know that Max’s in hospital and couldn’t be there, but if they wanted to foreshadow all four couples to be endgames, I think they could made a scene like this in the hospital room somehow. Or at least they could have tied a scene with Max and Lucas to this scene, but no, we got Lucas and Erica.

So that got me thinking, that maybe they won’t be an endgame… or one of them will be that for the other, but the other one dies.

And that would be Max.

Am I crazy? Probably. But after s4 vol1 we thought Max was safe because she already managed to escape Vecna. Oh boy were we wrong! And we did not expect that, like we are not expecting her to die in s5.

But why not kill her off in s4 if she’s just gonna die?

I have two guesses:

1. She will wake up, help them, and die in the battle.

2. She won’t wake up, but El/Will will be able to reach their ”spirit” in the Vecna world somehow and she will have some important information which helps them to win, but they can’t bring her back.

Also, I have to remind you that the show made a big deal about the letters she wrote, so we will be hearing them in s5. And for that to happen, Max would probably have to die.

They said s5 circles back to s1 and there would be a lot of the same groupings. And Max wasn’t there… (i know robin and murray etc weren’t either but still)

I have to add, that if they have to kill one of the kids, the Duffers would probably get least amount of hate if it was Max. They would get more hate if they killed the black one, the disabled one, the gay one, the gay/bi one or Eleven.

Like I said, I hope I’m wrong. I hope no one dies. I hope lumax gets their movie date.

But Max accepted the risk. Do you?