#lestat didn't tell me shit as louis said

[cypheragent]

most in my position would treat you no better than you treated your maker. was insane. implying that claudia "mistreated" lestat by escaping HIS abuse. the implication that she was obligated to put up with it. absolutely sick. i can empathize with armand having this kind of a fucked up worldview because he was a Literal Slave like tbh because of that he's more sympathetic than lestat to me. DOES NOT excuse the crimes against claudia. i need him to cut that shit out.

[ultrapoppet]

People act like Armand must've done some crazy mind altering shit to Louis to manipulate him but be for fucking real you don't need mind powers to manipulate Louis. A 6 year old could manipulate him. This is a guy who was in a relationship with Lestat for decades before he asked him if he murdered his brother. He only asked him about his maker because of Claudia. He probably still doesn't know who Akasha is. Armand straight up told him I know you murdered Lestat and the coven wants you gone and he said nah. Claudia told him Armand choked her and he said nah. He can read minds and missed an entire coven planning his death. Literally all it took for him to spare Armand was him saying they made me do it 🥺 and he said ok 😃👍. He met with Lestat and didn't ask a single question before embarking on the genius revenge plan of getting into a committed relationship with his daughter's murderer.

This man is alive because of pretty privilege and pretty privilege alone I don't know what to tell you.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Pre season 2 rant - heavy on sarcasm!

This is the... well by now somewhat meditated on rant I promised a while ago. It has a lot of cussing, so be warned.

It is a… summary comment about some views I‘ve seen around, from “bad writing“ to the “abuse“ and other things. Oh, and it's about the "lying" subject. With receipts!

I‘m getting this out of my system before season 2 hits, and before more of the press leading up to it is released, because cast, crew and writers as well as the show have given us all of it already and, tbh, if I‘m going to see anyone scream “bad writing“ or “Louis being made a liar or the memories revisited/changed is racism“ when the changes will hit I‘m just gonna block you.

Fair warning.

This is long… so under the cut.

This show has made color-conscious choices. Brilliantly so. They also have an astonishing meta level.

And what we saw was not the truth.

That much is clear now. HAS ACTUALLY BEEN CLEAR FROM THE END OF SEASON 1 ON.

Jacob has said at the TCA panel that Louis is trying to regain his true memories.

Here is a reminder of some key statements by cast and crew:

Here are interviews and statements by Assad and Jacob and Sam and Rolin and the writers & producers that what we have seen was not the (whole) truth, that Louis’ tale has been “tinkered” with, influenced.

I'm heroically refraining from adding the gifs of Rolin and his statement again. Which are from the episode insider… and remember when that aired?! Yeah… 😒

But I've seen things recently that make me want to pull my hair out, to be frank. For example this, behind the link:

...Like, not making him a whole flat ass liar is actually the point, guys. And no it does not undermine the story....

As the writers said:

I mean, I get it to an extent. It's becoming clearer and clearer that the show some people made up in their heads is not the one they'll be getting. (We've been trying to tell them, but hey.)

Yeah.... That.

Unfortunately @blackgirlasis has blocked me, (and I have returned the favor now that I noticed), we only discussed something recently, but I think the reason might have been after I posted that video, in which it is literally said that "not everything Louis says is a lie", which, given her statements here might speak for itself, especially this part of that statement:

"It is actually ACTIVELY harmful to perpetuate the idea that the Black characters aren't to be trusted with the narrative and that we need Lestat to come through with the honest accounting."

You know, I would actually agree! Which is also why I always emphasized that we did not get the WHOLE truth. I also kept more than hinting at the fact that Armand is, well Armand.

BUT - and here it gets interesting - why is JACOB's - a BLACK man's - statement discarded? Why do they do not want to hear it that Louis does, in fact, lie? And, just to be clear - I do not NEED Louis to lie, nor be proven a liar, and I think the show will do its damndest to explain via the "tinkering" that Armand did. They will give some of the blame to Armand.

But to flip one's shit over argumentation that the MAIN CHARACTER, a BLACK MAN has already stated... that is what I find interesting.

Like, why do you* (*generally spoken, not her especially) accuse people of racism over this, when HE has already said that Louis does, indeed, lie. Why is he not actually listened to? I don't get that. Why is agency taken away from a living, breathing person to give it to a fictional character? Why is his statement that "not all representation needs to be healthy representation" not kept in mind?

Louis is Louis. Louis being color-consciously handled didn't "change the character an awful lot".

JACOB said that. Here. Interestingly enough in a comment about the racial consideration the show does(!).

Louis is NOT a whole other character despite the changes, and the twists that will happen in season 2 were always set to come, as the friggin' video of BEFORE the show aired is proof of. They talked about all that. They know it didn't all happen as shown. They knew Louis did lie. But NOT about everything.

They also knew that some of the scenes did not happen (at least as shown). And now... "it’s clear that Louis is somebody hugely angry with a man he loved deeply and now presents them as a monster…" Also Jacob Anderson.

Presents. Them. As. A. Monster.

Bailey Bass said in the SDCC interview, that it is not clear who is the "villain here" in various scenes, interestingly enough, because the dynamic keeps changing. Which of course was after they shot a myriad of scenes that would not make it into the final s1 cut. Again: why is she not listened to? Why do you take her agency away to give it to a fictional character?

And I'm not even starting on the others. Sam. Rolin. The writers.

Also, re the abuse and scenes being revisited. Again, screenshot as example:

There is nothing simple about this show. Especially that scene.

BUT the show knows what it‘s doing! I'm not going to rehash all that here now, here are links on that.

AND THE WRITERS SAYING IT WILL BE REVISITED... is from December 21, 2022.

DECEMBER 22.

A revisit and a change of that scene will not be bad writing. (Or tasteless.) They already DID so in the last episode of season 1, continuing that will simply fall into line with what we have already been given. That's not bad writing. That's just the show, and there's people who just did not want to examine that.

Because it will be echoed, and it will serve a purpose.

I know the show did the meta level of patriarchal domestic abuse, but for fuck‘s sake, the story itself is about vampires struggling, and Louis is struggling.

The show has a meta level of abuse, and patriarchy, and recognizing is valid and the meta discussions are too.

But Louis is not chained to his coffin guys, he could have left, and a fight which shows off power discrepancies within the show story line is not automatically domestic abuse.

*slow clap*

No-one wants this to happen for the sake of "redeeming" Lestat. Because he does not need that redemption. They're all murderers and monsters.

They kill. For a living. LITERALLY.

THEY ARE VAMPIRES It's not about vampires trying to find their humanity.

It's about vampires trying to find a way to live with themselves, because they are, indeed, monsters.

Doubting the narrative which was TORN APART WITHIN THE SHOW is not the same as bad writing or racism FFS, nor is actually looking at what we're given - and knowing the fucking, 50 year old books. And recognizing the hints and parallels.

I have also seen the take that Lestat isolated Louis... and like, did we watch the same show? You know, even with the vampirism (which, of course™, could not free Louis as promised)...

Months of flirting openly in NOLA, public wooing. DECADES LIVING IN NOLA. Operas. Restaurants. Family dinners. (And Louis stopping Lestat there, AS a mortal...) Cleaning the cribs, years of "human entanglement" because Louis wanted it.... Banjo barbecues, political influence, wakes... Everybody knew.

(Like, I could pull up gifs here.)

"Isolation". Right. It has nothing, at all, to do with the Rite of Passage, or Louis' depression.

Of course not.

I mean, Jacob says that Louis is very depressed during the time leading up to the fight, and his and Sam's discussion here is interesting as well, but hey, I mean, why listen to the actual black actor, right.

As a last thing.

Yeah. Tell me you know nothing about the books without telling me you know nothing about the books.

And, as a note, context is important if you pull up other scenes from the VC.

Welcome to the fucking Vampire Chronicles.

Anyone expecting big bad patriarchal abuser Lestat is not going to have a good time.

And honestly, to those: don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Good riddance - and BON VOYAGE

[pumpumdemsugah]

I find the sentiment that Claudia should have listened about the coven being bad news mad because why would she trust Lestat?

Which adult child living at home with their parents hasn't considered renting from a slum lord because you want to get out so bad ? The fact she's permanently a child so always needs adulthood supervision because of them is bad enough. If my parents birth me and i always had to be 14 for the rest of my life + they were bad parents and kind of dumb ( Lestat is not smart, I'm sorry he really isn't. Think about it? ) id become a James Bond villain with the goal of blowing up the world

Why doesn't she depend on her dick obsessed dumb dumb parents for the rest of her life ? Who knows. It's a mystery

We've established that Louis is a bad parent but Lestat is also shit. She said how she felt " who's going to fuck me!" And what changed ?

When she ran away and he found her this was his deeply mature understanding response

He beats Louis up and reveals he can fly. What is she meant to do but not kill him ? He theatrically told her I'm your jailer and there's nothing you can do about it. Through a mix of stupidity and arrogance Lestat thought this was a good idea and didn't tell them anything about the vampire world ( or laws ) but some vagueness about European vampires being brutal while acting like this but please be scared of them now get back in that dog cage

Why didn't Claudia want to stay in the dog cage and trust someone that didn't even mention he can fly? It's a mystery.

The day they made her they doomed her by making her reliant on them. They could have used their speed to drop her off with a human that may have been able to save her. It doesn't matter if either of them loved her they gave her no reason to trust or rely on them. They made her need other people.

[winepresswrath]

genuinely rolin will come out in interviews and be like "this season is about louis taking ownership of his choices and facing himself. it's about accountability for all the vampires" and louis will turn to the camera in the show and say "actually i think the thing lestat said at the trial was correct i had rewritten it in my head a bit because i didn't want to face what i'd done" and "i was a dick to lestat on purpose for decades because i was unhappy. that was shitty of me and contributed to our problems" and lestat will literally address the audience to say "the way i treated you was inexcusable. very literally there is no excuse for what i did. nothing you did or could have done could justify the violence i inflicted on you. i am the person primarily at fault." and subsets of the audience will say "as you can clearly see louis had no power no choices and no agency so it's literally impossible for him to have done anything wrong. except maybe to claudia, because he has more power than claudia. when someone has more power than you in a relationship you become morally equivalent to a person in a coma or maybe a small child. this is very progressive of me." and at that point i think this may not be the show for you. because there is a conversation you can have about how abuse can warp you and how some behaviour which looks genuinely nasty from the outside is honestly just a victim trapped in a traumatic situation with no good outs. but I don't think this show is having that conversation. and when you impose that conversation onto the show regardless of what the show is telling you about Louis' level of culpability or agency you wind up twisting yourself in circles and saying some really fucked up shit about how some people are just designated victims and some people are designated aggressors and nothing the designated victims do counts. on the other hand if i have to watch one more person suggest that the power disparity is irrelevant and louis is "equally toxic" i will throw something. thanks, rolin. glad u enjoy pissing people off.

[bee-named-alex]

Ok so ep7 of iwtv s2. One of the notes i wrote down as i was watching was "fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. nope. just nope. jesus fucking christ don't you dare do this" so you can imagine how i felt. Spoilers.

Ok ok. So I'm so fine rn you don't even know how fine I am. I didn't cry even though I expected to, I was more like empty, which might be even worse (read: better) lol

I'll start with a few quick thoughts, before I get into the bigger things. For the first like 10 minutes I couldn't stop thinking about how great Lestat (Sam) looks like im sorry. Him uncovering the homophobe's filth back at him? 10/10.

The actors are just so- perfect I have to say. Like we don't know what's true and I probably shouldn't believe anything just to be safe, but I found myself believing them everything. Also the whole time I wanted to hate the audience but they think it's just a play and if I, with all the other knowledge, find myself drawn to believe obvious lies, it's not really their fault that they do too.

Let's start with Lestat then. I was so glad to finally see the "real" (not really, even Sam said so) Lestat again

I haven't read the books (and even if i did i know that they change things) so idk how they made him testify because I just don't think he would. Maybe they tortured and forced him, "gave him a choice", maybe he was planning on saving them. Or maybe he just actually was out for vengeance i just don't know.

"You cannot script a hurricane" yeah you can't I loved that him going of script threw Santiago off so much, lmao (like he literally said "I'm about to violate the 5th law" aka kill Lestat I love that. Lestat is such a little shit.)

And when he went of script he told the truth (or as close to truth as we got during the trial i feel). Yes he also did break the laws. I like that he didn't let Santiago manipulate the audience to sympathize with him (don't get me wrong, it's not that he didn't want them to sympathize with him, he just wanted to manipulate them himself lol)

His and Louis' first eye contact (at around 11 minutes I believe) literally broke my heart.

When he talks about the loneliness I can't help but feel sorry for him.

I found it honestly hilarious when he was recounting their whole history backwards, like bitch please, it literally happened the other way arounf. Idk why it was just so funny how he was blatantly lying.

But then when they fully revisited the scenes from last season my jaw dropped.

So firstly Claudia's turning... I am so confused by it. Because it's obviously different from what we saw last time - and the scene itself is so moving. I mean Louis begging Lestat on his knees like he's some god and trying himself and failing and Lestat doing it for him even tho he knows it's a terrible idea. But the confusing part - in Dubai Louis rn says that Lestat's trial version is better than his and that he didn't want to believe it at the trial but now he knows it to be more true.

But like last season, so like 2 weeks ago, he told his own version?? Did he not realize until now, that he's talking about the trial, that he doesn't believe it? Did he lie on purpose but change his mind, is he lying now? Does Armand have to do something with it again? Tf is happening.

And then the fight. Again it's different but this time I remember that we didn't actually see this part of the fight so it could technically be true?? I don't really know rn how big of a part we didn't see last time. But maybe the truth about the fight is somewhere in the middle.

Amazing scene nonetheless, again, if I didn't know shit, I too would 100 % believe Lestat to be the victim. Up until the drop, that is extreme either way.

And Lestat going fully of script here, and his tears and his regret and his voice trembling and I'm sure that he means it. It wasn't a part of the performance. Sam Reid, the actor that he is, fuck.

It is just wo so great, like these new versions we get by Louis telling the story of Lestat showing him the story (which Louis already told us very differently) and on top of that anything could be misremembered. Or edited Armand. Unreliable narration at it's best.

Ok so Armand. "I could not prevent it" Fuck you. No sorry I might be a little harsh but yea no actually I'm not.

First the thing with Nicki and how he was "helped"... Armand got rid of him to have Lestat to himself and now he's doing the same with Claudia and Madeleine to have Louis.

Him having to watch is brutal and I believe his emotions but not his words. It was terrible to watch sure and painful and he didn't want it to happen... but he still sold them out?

He saves Louis. And it's amazing, the fear for his love in his face as he does it. He says it took all his strength and sure. But he could've saved them all. He can literally stop time. Ok maybe not but I for sure think he could've done it.

And rn in Dubai he's trying to convince himself or Louis or Daniel or maybe everyone that it wasn't his fault. But Daniel seems to not believe him (and calls his shit out a few times, good for him). And he's also making Lestat be more of a villain then he is I think (he would not do nothing when watching Claudia's death I'm sorry, that's his daughter.)

Claudia and Madeleine. My heart broke. They were doomed from the begginning. It didn't matter if they fought or not, it didn't matter their love or that they were right, it didn't matter that Madeleine was innocent and Claudia justified (maybe) in her crimes.

It didn't matter that Claudia was right -"We poisoned him, he's fine now. I can also cry and say I'm sorry"- because yes this was exactly true.

Claudia's final request (and Lestat giving it to her and then looking almost proud?? after she says it) and promise of death to all the people who doomed her and Madeleine.

And her rage. "It was never about me" and that's also true and yet she dies because of it. Tragic.

Madeleine's "My coven is Claudia" is just pure love and again it's what dooms her and again it's fucking tragic.

Watching the execution I couldn't breath really. Hurts still. And I don't believe Armand's version of the story though. Not that he tried but couldn't save them, not that Lestat didn't even try.

Louis, poor Louis. Living with guilt and sorrow isn't easy and he's living through it again now. And he can't even trust his own memories. I need him happy. He's not gonna be but I need him to be.

Also his live burial?? like fuck. That was vile. Like we know that he is fine now but still.

Previews. Santiago will die and if he doesn't I will kill him. Louis is a pyromaniac (yay), I'm ready for the whole coven to burn.

From the trailers we didn't yet see the bookshelves falling on Daniel so it has to be next episode. Also we didn't yet see the Loustat hug and I don't think it's what happens after the trial, especially not with Louis coming to kill Lestat, so that would mean it has to have happened later (Dubai maybe? I mean we do need Lestat's side of the story next season so we could get him now.)

[blueiight]

IWTV E4 “A Ruthless Pursuit of Blood with All a Child’s Demanding.” Claudia discussing how it feels to escape poverty to being adopted into wealth, struggling in her existence without peers even during her second childhood and how she does not even care to have the veneer of mortal manners around Louis’s family, what Charlie as her last peer meant to her, and her mortal upbringing prior to Lestat + Louis.

And I realized, what I thought was Heaven was just some nice room. And what I thought were angels were really hell demons.

Uncle Les and Daddy Louis were rich. They had nice clothes and a nice auto carriage and a funny way of being nice to each other.

I gotta go to bed when the rest of the world wakes up, so there's less kids to play with...

Daddy Lou said I had been away from people too long. I didn't know how to behave right anymore. But Uncle Les said, I behaved just fine.

Diary, his name is Charlie. He's got veins like rivers. They flow right down his arms. …Charlie's death ushered in one of the darkest eras in our lives. The oh-so-delicate balance of our oh-so-delicate household was shattered. For Claudia, all humans died with Charlie.

And, diary, you'd think a girl whose mama died in childbirth... whose daddy gave her away to a mean old auntie who beat her 'cause no one said she couldn't, who died in a fire but came back by the blood magic of two demons, well, you'd think that girl wouldn't know what funny was. But you'd be wrong, diary. And if I told you, dumb diary, that that same girl was being raised to kill like her demon parents did, to take two souls a day so she could stay in the same flat-chested, hairless-crotched 14-year-old baby doll body as her mind and spirit turn 19, 20, 25, 63, 358, you dumb, dumb diary, I bet you'd say to anyone who'd listen, "Fun? Fun? How does she even get up in the morning?" Well, let me tell you something, you stuck-up, flower-covered, three-dollar fancy fսcking paper diary, I'm doin' just fine. (diary pages read aloud as Claudia self harms at the end of e4)

IWTV E5 “A Vile Hunger for Your Hammering Heart”. Claudia discussing her life/reckoning with the fate of her premature existence.

"Dear Diary, am I gonna be a virgin every single time I do it? Won't my skin down there grow back like my hair does when I cut it?"

Who am I supposed to love? You two have each other. Who's my Lestat? Who's my Louis? I’m not human. What human would want me? Perverts? Like the uncle at the roomin' house who used to watch me pee? Or little boys? And 40 years from now... still little boys? How are you gonna fix it, huh?… (turns to Louis) [Lestat] treats us like shit and you just take it! And you, [turns to Lestat] cruel as the devil ever made, to deny me one love when you’ve got two.

[Talking to Louis in her room after the confrontation at the dinner table] I remember the night I was made, the fire chokin' me, you carryin' me out through the flame and the smokes. But then why'd you take me home? Why not a hospital? …. But I was breathin'! Maybe I'd have a handsome husband by now. Or maybe he'd be plain but with a good disposition. That'd be fine, too. I'd be sweepin' floors, makin' dinners, nursin' babies. Maybe I'd go to church. You think on that some.

How does Claudia react after her rape? She exhibits textbook behaviors.

Co-dependency.

I spend time following Louis and Lestat now that I am my own woman... with no obvious sense of why I follow them, other than meaning slowly disintegrates without them...My companions in immortality.

but wait.. u might ask: doesn’t this contradict what she said years earlier in this same episode about wanting ‘her own Lestat and Louis’? is this Louis or Armand somehow forging Claudia’s diary? or is this a rape victim shortly after the actual experience struggling with her emotional+ mental state and in that frame of mind going back to the immortal family she finds to be a more familiar sort of ‘evil’ than the unknown vampire that raped her, especially after witnessing Louis weep over the grave Grace made of him? to Claudia here, being Louis’s ‘sister’ is balm put onto a bleeding wound.

Hypervigilance over her wider situation ad an Enmeshment with Louis, as they both have endured incredibly traumatizing events (with Claudia being raped + shortly after, witnessing Louis being beaten) and are without Lestat for six years following the end of E5 picking up the pieces. it is Claudia who tends to Louis in his most vulnerable here, and Louis struggles with that, wanting to be ‘her knight in vengeful black’ in return.

She's grown very protective of me. That's what this is. It's why it's hard. She came back altered when she left us. There's a darkness in her that wasn't there before. Give her a little time. [Louis is trying to appease Lestat here in their ‘compromise’, but there is a key bit of truth in his observations here.]

Claudia learned very early on, as early as E4 when Louis asked her mentally about Charlie, how to block her mind off from Louis. and with her traumatic experiences, its all but said that hypervigilance protects her mind further (as shown in the S2 trailer when Armand comments on it). When Lestat steals her from off the train, he also threatens her:

Because if you try this again, Claudia, I won't snap your leg, defile your pocket, and zoom off on a motorbike. I'll turn your bones to dust.

Is it any wonder Claudia draws the comparison to Bruce when she talks to Louis, especially when Louis in the season finale plays the role of a honey trap to the very same lover who almost ‘killed Louis’, as Claudia [and Daniel alike] frame the ending of E5 as abuse + attempted murder, as Claudia seethes , is ‘done enduring?’ and just before she creates her own murder plan:

Or did you kill him, like you did Antoinette, and how you tried to do with Louis?

I have to wonder why, over a year from airing, blogs and reviews claiming to be dedicated to the series rehash the most juvenile questions that the episodes themselves directly answer? How can S2 spec or complex discussion occur, if callout PSAs shutting down any sort of canon-compliant discussion is the way to go? If people constantly exhibit their refusal to meet the show where its at and engage the material for what it is, where can we go from here? AMC IWTV is very didactic. ‘The absence of metaphor is striking’. Yet for all the waxing about loving ‘fucked-up gothic romance’, there is a willful ignorance in understanding where & what makes the situation fucked up to begin with. Or even an interest in understanding the basics of the setting!

[ca-suffit]

sam reid actually said that lestat did have a part in claudia's trial and execution but so did the rest??? Like what?? he was her maker and her father and he just let that happen. he also said that after first season he couldn't sleep for 6 months after he read how fans felt about lestat online. so before they were shooting the reunion scene with lestat and louis him and jacob rang RJ and told him that the final scene just didn't sit well with them (the initial scene wasn't as heartfelt as it was filmed then). my guess is sam reid is RJ's golden boy and he wanted to pull lestat out of the shit so he wanted him to change the scene so that the fans will then cry and empathize with lestat how he loved his daughter so much and how proud he was of her. i still think sam isn't a bad person but i'm baffled how he could've influenced the way season 2 ended so much. if sam couldn't handle the fans' backlash on his character's abuse then why choose such a role in the first place? and i also can't believe how much jacob is pushing the loustat agenda and being critical about loumand, he's letting his personal biases because him and sam are such good friends (i hope this is the only reason) get too much in the way of his work. i don't care which ship is endgame but this is unprofessional behavior

I was away for a min so what's the source of this info?? I waited to answer this until I could watch the last Autumn Brown thing, cuz I thought it was something there, but this is 2 hrs long and I don't think is related to this lol. idk, someone tell me. I can't stand watching her if I don't need to.

Otherwise tho, there's been instances where Rolin has not changed things for Sam (including other stuff he wanted for the reunion scene, like to look a lot physically worse), so I don't think he has a lot of pull tbh. I also think a lot of Sam's book crap is marketing for book ppl, cuz look how much it works at making them feel secure that Sam is the same kind of person as them.

I also think that's the same reason any of the rest of them talk the ways they do. They're selling wherever the story is at the moment. As much as a lot of us would prefer otherwise, it's not ever gonna get that deep anymore beyond what the show itself gives us within canon. The interviews and stuff otherwise are all to sell the show on a rly surface level and it's always gonna lean towards whatever they think is gonna do that the best.

[saintarmand]

Hi! Do you think that s2 big reveal will be that Armand manipulated Louis memory? What do you think the "disastrous consequences in Dubai" mean? Louis attempting suicide as many books fans expect?

no. i think the "big reveal" will be that armand didn't have to. louis knows armand did the thing and stayed with him anyway like he did in the books. they very well may lead the audience to believe armand is doing that to louis, when it was actually daniel who got his memories wiped (and daniel may have agreed to it.) and i think any inconsistencies about the events of s1 that may or may not be revealed will be because of louis repressing memories the old fashioned way. at most armand helped a little. and i'm not saying that only because of the racist and abuse apologist implications or just cause i'm an armand stannie or whatever, although that's all also true. i'm saying that because i think the story is better for it.

to me, armand having significant overarching influence, especially though literal magic, on the story we've been told (specifically LOUIS's story told BY louis), undermines the theme of "memory is a monster." they told us the fallibility of memory in this story is the real life kind; how memory naturally changes every time we remember events in our lives, how our present self affects how we look at the past, etc. this is a fantasy story, yes, but it's very much grounded in reality. the racism isn't "fantasy racism", for example. having the twist be that a crucial element of the story that we were told was real was actually magic would lame and disappointing as hell. i think daniel having his memories wiped magically will be a parallel to louis. but the thing about parallels is that they're not meant to be literal or complete, and they emphasize differences as much as similarities, in order to reinforce the ideas and themes of the story, not replace them. so i think that while louis and daniel's memory issues can look similar on the surface, they have different causes and the show will make it clear which is which.

hell, they've even shown us magical manipulation vs regular manupulation before. we saw lestat entrance several humans including louis himself ("his gaze tied a string around my lungs and i found myself immobilized") but it was done in a way that made it obvious when it was happening, so general audiences weren't speculating lestat was using vampire magic to make louis fall in love with him or agree to be turned or whatever. he was shown to have powers he could have used at key points but didn't, more often using very basic human manipulation tactics, which were actually even more effective. even the idea of lestat causing paul's death was brought up only to be discarded. i think they'll pretty much do the same thing with armand, only teasing us a bit more with it. and sure, some people will still speculate, but i think this is what the intention of the writers is, and hopefully they do it well.

i assume the "disastrous consequences in dubai" is an interview quote and i've heard something like that but since i don't have the full context in front of me it's hard to say much about it. if you could tell me the whole quote and who said it and where and in what context i could probably talk about it in more detail lol. link me if you'd like?

what i will say right now is that i think there's gonna be a lot of arguments and accusations and revelations in dubai, i think louis will go through a hell of an emotional rollercoaster, i think daniel will find out about the eternal sunshine of the devil's minion as i like to call it, will ask to be turned again or at least realize he still wants it, i think louis and armand will break up, and i think there will be a book released by the end.

the louis suicide attempt theory i believe is based on merrick, which i still haven't read (i need to get my shit together and read it before may 12th lol) so it's difficult for me to say much about it? i know he attempts suicide at the end and that him talking to claudia's ghost who's fucking furious with him is a thing that happens. something like that anyway, i've read some quotes from it. i highly doubt louis has been talking to her literal ghost at this point in the show, he's just doing that metaphorically. i would love to see it in the future though.

honestly to me just the fact that armand said out loud that he thinks the interview is basically louis's suicide note indicates that's probably not actually what's going on. that's usually how it works in stories lol. when the character tells you what they think is gonna happen it never happens like that. (on the whole "other vampires will paint the walls with his blood" thing, i think the human world will assume the book is made up bullshit or daniel is senile or crazy, and because of that most vampires won't care that much. would be pretty dumb to kill him since it would only draw more attention to him and the book. i do like the idea of lestat, inspired by louis, going on to more or less successfully prove the existence of vampires, causing a big ruckus, and the whole "great conversion" thing that was mentioned, being a part of the show version of the queen of the damned somehow.)

louis attempting suicide could still happen i guess but i just don't think it's that interesting or particularly good writing in the context of the story being told in seasons 1 & 2. not only because it's kinda predictable and basic and boring to me but like. if he tries kill himself and fails, that's basically him being forced to live. to me, louis choosing to live on in this continuous state of mourning is much more compelling and devastating even, than him having no choice in it. it's like with him staying with armand, isn't it waaaayyy more fucked up and sad if he's doing that of his own volition as opposed to being kept there against his will? that's a story about who louis is, the choices he makes, not about how he's a victim. of course he still is an abuse victim etc, and that's certainly not his fault, but him blaming himself and seeing himself as just as bad as lestat or armand because he "let" it all happen is, to me, a core part of his character. in the book he monologues about his passivity being his biggest fault; in the show he insists "i'm not a victim" even as he's telling us a story about being abused. abuse culture & catholic guilt baby!

also. the thematic note the book ends on is, to me anyway, about the human spirit clinging to life even in devastating circumstances. armand tells louis how so many vampires resort to suicide, but louis doesn't (in book one.) he keeps going, haunted by his past, dead inside and out yet still alive, unable to let go. and he spends the whole book telling daniel the boy reporter how awful immortality is and yet daniel still wants it, thinking it will be different this time. choosing the horrors life throws us, even the cursed half life or unlife of a vampire, over the horror of the unknown that is permanent death. etc etc etc. i love this part of the book too much to want to let it go!

hell, armand only tries to kill himself after finding out what hell is "really like" in memnoch the devil, and while i don't know cause i haven't read merrick yet, i bet that influenced louis too. death isn't as terrifying when you know what to expect.

and i'm also just not a fan of the idea that actually most of the other books' events have also already happened. because then that influences the characters who are telling us the story, in ways that we won't find out until seasons later. like if louis tries to kill himself at the end of season 2 and then in like season 7 or some shit we find out actually it wasn't because of what happened in s1-2 it was actually because right before the interview he was talking to claudia's ghost who said horrible things to him and also because he found out hell is real but it's actually a bit more like purgatory where if you prove yourself you get to go to heaven eventually and also because— like you can see how that would be bad storytelling right? lmao. not that revealing new information about characters or events later is always bad, it can be very interesting and beneficial even, but not if it undermines or completely changes the whole story before that point. not shading AR's retcon habit here at all not at all of course not i would never do that

anyway i think i've rambled enough. thank you for asking!

[aranostra]

ooc // Okay now that I've had some sleep (not enough, but some), I feel like I need to clarify some stuff for the Interview with the Vampire crowd. (I'm pretty sure that anon I got was somebody from the tags, not a mutual but... I still want to clarify for everyone.)

First, when I'm talking about characterization etc, I'm talking about the show. I write my iwtv muses from the show.

I am going to be critical of Lestat on this blog. It is not because I hate him or because I think he's the only one who does anything bad in the series. I might go a little harder on him, because fandom in general often likes to ignore what he does wrong, but please understand. I first read iwtv and tvl when I was 10 years old. I have loved Lestat that whole time. He is actually my favorite in the books. Being critical isn't an attack on him or anyone who likes him, it is just part of how I enjoy media.

Criticizing Lestat doesn't mean I think Armand or Louis or anyone else in the Vampire Show is innocent. They are fucking vampires, my guys. Especially Armand. He is like... the embodiment of sexual and religious trauma. He holds to doctrine that harms others. He lies and manipulates. I explain why he does what he does, because I know he can be difficult to understand, because he does some horrific things. I just won't pretend that he is the only character who's caused harm.

That said, I'm not going to pretend Lestat didn't do any of the terrible things he did to Louis. I'm not going to pretend Louis deserved any of it. Louis can be difficult and Louis has very deep depressive episodes and Louis has some issues he has not dealt with but... he did not deserve how Lestat treated him.

Also not pretending Armand didn't do anything terrible to Louis. They were more mutually terrible to each other, in my opinion, but terrible nonetheless. Yes, Armand was heavily involved with the trial, but I see no evidence in show canon that the scenario was very much like the book--and I see some evidence of big changes from the book. Lestat doesn't seem weak, and he doesn't seem to lift a finger to stop what's happening before it starts even though he knew what was going on enough for there to have been multiple rehearsals. Lestat and Armand could've stopped it at basically any time--Louis destroyed the whole coven when he'd just been half starved. You can't tell me Armand and Lestat, who are both more powerful, couldn't have done the same if they wanted. Armand and Lestat let the trial happen. They let Claudia die. They are equally culpable in my opinion. Of course, the show might retcon due to the nature of storytelling etc, but from what evidence we have, that is what I believe happened.

Lastly, Lestat (or anybody else) does not need to be fully in the right and good and pure and perfect to be a great fucking character. I love these characters. A lot. Enough to put up with years in and around a fandom I find very stressful and occasionally triggering. I literally own 5 versions of The Vampire Lestat. There's a reason I have tons of threads with Lestat writers. I love that egotistical jackass. Just... please know that I'm not going to ignore his faults, and I'm not going to twist everybody else's characterization to justify Lestat's nonsense.

Anyway, please feel free to talk to me directly if you want to talk out characterization things. I don't mind disagreeing; I just don't like responding to anons about this kind of thing given some of the shit that's happened in this fandom over the last 10+ years.

[moonisneveralone]

Still thinking about that Tik Toker that read Louis in the most uncharitable way possible. Truely she lost me when she said Paul killed himself because of Louis. Suicide doesn't work that way. But even narratively Louis behaviour is just one part of what Paul has experienced, because Paul was put in a facility. And Louis said he came out worse than when he went in. I believe that because any expert will tell you that the methods used to treat mental illnesses back then were aweful. Even now we're still learning a lot. And Louis doesn't have to be the perfect beacon of emotional balance to love Paul and Paul doesn't need him to be that to understand that he is loved. Like there is a reason why Pauls last words were I love you. There is a reason in the narrative, which is to set up his skepticism of his own happiness, but also obviously to show that his qualms where not with Louis. I mean this is fiction but that's a yikes ass take. The issues they had with each other where normal issues. The knife pulling was a bit much, but siblings get into heated discussions and sometimes those get physical. Not condoning it. I just truely don't believe that Louis is at fault for Pauls suicide.

And if this was just to take the heat of of Lestat. There is actual narrative motive. Louis has that fear. That why it makes sense for us as the viewers to suspect Lestat because Louis is telling the story. And also Lestat literally read Pauls mind and used his powers on Paul. He also killed Miss Lilly who was also a form of comfort for Louis. Basically isolating him. If that was intended by Lestat is up to interpretation but we know that it happened and that that's how Louis was turned as he was.

The whole video was just full of Louis being at fault for everything. Basically sounding like Mama duLac came to life.

Even saying the trial was Louis fault because why did he think he got away with it. And Louis didn't start out thinking that. He thought they were going to die. He wanted to leave, but Claudia wanted to stay. So he stayed with her. He was almost killed, but then the leader of the coven said no I'm not gonna kill you lets date. And instead of just doing the trial immediately they just kept on keeping. Of course he thinks if they were gonna do it they would have done it.

Louis is deeply flawed. Yeah he's responsible for a lot of his own misery and has treated those close to him terribly, but he's also been treated terribly and kept in the dark about a lot of shit that he would not have cosigned if he knew the truth. To act like everything was his fault is so uncharitable that my eyes popped out for a moment.

I had a much longer response to the actual post but it got lost while I was switching apps. So yeah. That was more than just Louis hate that was like they despise Louis. I would kill that man with my own hands if were real, but there isn't much to despise him for if you're watching the show, because he's not worse than any other character on the show. Aside from personal taste of course.

[travellingwiththedead]

Ok, trying for some more coherent thoughts about iwtv s2e7 behind the read more (spoilers, obviously):

You know shit's about to go down when basically all of s1 is in the recap

Santiago the little shit is loving this. Oh Ben Daniels is so perfect.

Dang, Sam Reid, you have no right to look this good (his hair's on point, this can't actually be Louis' POV LOL xD). Also, Lestat looks so very pissed off when he comes on stage. Doesn't want to be there, indeed.

"He was as much of a captive as we were." uh-huh, sure, Jan. Come on, Louis, you don't really believe that?

And Armand can go "I couldn't prevent it" all he wants, he definitely could have prevented it at any stage before they were actually on the stage and maybe even when the play already started. He was the coven master and could have legally put Santiago down for the mutiny he was brewing, which Armand was very aware of. But he didn't.

So those theorising they'd make Lestat's first dirt nap longer to account for the time changes were right. He did really nap like 100 years before Marius dug him back up.

Oooooh Lestat /hates/ Santiago.

Santiago and vampire Sam trying way too hard to make Louis look like a predator with their little play about Louis hunting Lestat instead. Pff, boys, no one would ever buy that.

Lestat moves like a wind up toy sometimes, or maybe I'm imagining things, but once again, the acting from everyone in this episode is so, so good. Give everyone involved in this show all the awards!

Lestat tearing down that homophobic soldier is *chef's kiss* but also, if he was strong enough to get himself up there and back down so quickly, read his mind, and later get into the mind of the guy with his loneliness, how are we supposed to believe he's weak and being controlled/forced to do this play? Over all I don't see how they'll do the whole "Lestat came to beg Armand for his blood to get healed" thing with Lestat not being all that bad off, in the end.

Santiago fumbling his lines xD

I'd say with the revisited flash backs to Claudia's turning and to the fight in s1e5 the truth lies somewhere between the two accounts. Louis said the trial's retelling of Claudia's turning was more right, sure, but as with all eye witness accounts, they are never 100% true. So yeah, somewhere between the accounts lies the truth.

LOL Real Rashid's entrance there is so good. We needed something to break all that tension. Thank you, Real Rashid, I hope they don't eat you for it xD (or, you know, for being a Talamasca spy in their home...)

See, i said it, Lestat looking damn near pristine all through that fight in s1e5 was a hint. No one looks that good after crashing through walls. They fought, because rage had been simmering for 7 years and it finally boiled over. They beat each other up and Lestat went too far. Now can we finally stop having the same discourse over this thing again and again and again? (Also I just love the foresight in this show, how they showed us the dent in Louis' coffin in s1 but we only get an explanation for it in s2. Awards, for every last person working on this show, now!)

Lestat's talk about how he broke Louis: Sam Reid, the actor you are. Dang, so good.

"One more round in the stormy romance of you two!" You tell them, Claudia. Oh girl, you deserved so much better.

So was Louis aiming that cup of blood at Armand or at the wall? Because Armand definitely had to move out of the way at least a little.

I do wonder, did they make sure Madeleine was so out of it for most of the trial because they hoped she'd stay with the coven if she didn't have much of an idea what was going on? Or did they do the same thing to her as to Louis and Claudia and she was just more susceptible because she's weaker?

Her choosing Claudia again, even if it means death, is all Claudia ever wanted. Dang, these bi ladies are giving me all the feels.

Claudia telling the audience she's gonna go full on murder ghost on all their arses: iconic. Also you can't tell me Lestat didn't look proud as hell right there. That's his daughter, never going down without a fight, never giving in.

Claudia and Madeleine in the sun is so heartbreaking :( Claudia holding Madeleine like movie!Madeleine held movie!Claudia. Ladies, you deserved better. Fuck these vampires.

And Louis, in that rock filled coffin, feeling them both die :( Claudia because he can read her mind, and Madeleine because he made her. (And they helpfully labelled the fucking door so Armand will know which one to pull Louis out of when he "rescues" him.....)

Can not wait for Louis to go full on Blade on the coven's collective arses next episode.

[ravencromwell]

Interview With The Vampire Pilot Musings

This was a pilot so saturated with nuance I found myself wanting to note my thoughts, to fully track how they shifted across the season. Thought my odd journaling's might be of interest to others. Beneath a cut, because verbosity is my middle name :)

DANIEL. Crusty, exhausted, taking immense pride in his skill. God! I love you!

Especially because through how radically Daniel has reshaped himself, we see how emotionally static Louie still is, particularly around events ending his human life.

Daniel: goes from this high young man asking—at least as he sees it— all the wrong questions, not following up on contradictions, desperate more for the immortality of vampirism than a dedication to his craft into a man determined to tell a true tale, certain in his instincts and abilities even as death stalks him.

Louie: is still swearing up and down that no, no, I didn't want to pull a knife on my brother but you couldn't be seen as weak on Liberty Street.

Oh honey: in a colder light, you may have realized Paul was ill, but yeah, in that moment, the feral need to stop being judged by your nearest and dearest reigned supreme, and you absolutely *wanted* to cut him.

Failing to admit the nuances serves no one. Was Paul's death terrible? Unspeakably. Was Paul, illness or no, often viciously homophobic and undermining the very business that kept Louie's family in comfort while they looked away? Absolutely. And so ofc Louie could love and hate him simultaneously. But even a century later, those contradictions terrify him and it's so _sad.

Look, there are two kinds of good vampire tales: one involves a person desperate to be moral because that morality brings them genuine comfort, pulled in to depravity and floundering to keep hold of the truest essence of themselves.

The other: a person who feels desperately constrained to morality—or at least its imitation—because the society will flay them alive for deviation, finally given permission to be feral and free.

And as much as Louie wants! so bad to think he's in story one, he's in story two. And Lestat sees it _instantly. Look at how surprised and impressed he is when Louie pulls out the second wad of cash to bid for Lily, and he has to pull out a third and the ring.

(Also mad, let's be real, because he's already decided he wants Louis after the knife incident and Louis should be fixated on _him, not Lily. But mostly impressed.)

And the moments we see Louie unafraid to express himself, even as a black man—which he feels the constraints of _desperately—are with Lestat. In the ecstasy of their kisses or the rage of: "Don't do that shit. Not with my family."

He forces it back down, laughs and says when Paul's not picking at his plate he's picking a fight. But even this early, we see that Lestat lets Louie be _free. Louie says he was "a rougher thing then" to Daniel. But I wonder how much he's fleeing from the feral freedom Lestat offered, just as he fled after their first night?

And isn't it _fascinating, how we already see Louie influencing Lestat? "Not with my family" Louie snarls, and Lestat quiets, gentles: something wild stroked back to civility. And he's _sheepish: "I fear your family has an everlasting grudge against me"

For all everything above is true, this show never slips into the easy trope of Lestat as shining savior, never lets us forget how profoundly changed into monstrosity he has been by immortality.

I almost made that sentence more concise and said how *inhuman* Lestat is, but that's simply not right. All his emotions: empathy for Louie's struggles, jealousy over how Louie flees to Lily and the church, _so much _rage, are viscerally human.

They've just been made, for the most part, viciously selfish because how could they not be? When you live watching people flicker out like fireflies while you and your desires persist, it would be so hard to see them as equals instead of backdrops to your constant play.

(And that is one way in which, for all he is running from desires we're just like: embrace! you deserve it! Louie excels beyond Lestat. He has followed Daniel's career, seems legit pleased and proud of his accomplishments.

People, in all their frailty, still matter to Louie, and he wants to keep it that way.)

Whereas, with rare exception *coughLouie* Lestat doesn't give a fuck. And even with Louie, he wants to take away the good parts of humanity we see with Daniel: striving to leave the world better because you understand your own fragility etc.

And with people like Lily: well. She died two weeks before, and we know that she was gone when Louie woke up at Lestat's. Anyone else getting the heavy implication after she served her purpose in bringing them together, he took her down to the docks and killed her?

Before I finish my thought about Lily, I have to double back to servility in two moments. The card game when Lestat fumes over racism and literally externalizes Louie's worth by letting him win, and in the church where he urges him to take off the awful servility we've seen throughout the show, whether it's placating the white alderman in that terrible meek voice or begging his mother to understand it really was an accident with Paul.

Those moments? Fucking hot You could be all on board bandwagon Lestat.

 But there's Lily.

This astonishingly gentle woman: "I don't know what you're saying, but it's awful nice" to Lestat and: "It's fine, love," to Louie over kissing Lestat's hand etc. was just apawn to facilitate Lestat's seduction.

That all her hopes and dreams were snuffed out, more than likely, because Louis dared to get her off when his attention should've been for Lestat is appalling.

Especially in light of how her accepting "it's fine love" contrasts so starkly with the rest of the homophobia.

And we are forced to sit with the complexity of that awfulness juxtaposed with his clear _adoration of Louie: not merely as object, but as full person (see again the _card game holy shit)

That comfort with contradiction is so fucking _brave: absolutely my favorite show element.

That same ambiguity suffuses Paul's death, too. Louie says to Daniel that "a vampire was bored and my brother died" implying Lestat used his thought trick to force Paul over.

I'm surprisingly more inclined to believe Lestat's story that he longed for the flagstones.

Oh, I'm _certain he was meddling, but as we see with Louie: you can resist a vampire's thoughts. Look how often Lestat says "come to me" and Louie is just like nope, fuck you going to get drunk and find Lily thanks.

Paul is not absolved of culpability, even with Lestat, even with his illness.

And oh! oh there is something so sad in how the brothers run from their guilty pleasures: Louie from pulling the knife and his "vodka-soaked encounters", Paul with those awful disconsolate last words: "I ate too much checker cake" as though leaping were a penance for enjoying earthly pleasures.

Part of the reason I'm so glad they included Lestat's cruelty toward Lily—and I think the show understood this would be the case—is my ambivalence toward Paul's death.

Because for all I said there was an aching sadness in his cake line, and for all there was such a hopeful beauty in the wedding dancing, his relationship with Louie was going downhill fast.

The homophobia over dinner: unspeakably awful. The way he picked at Lestat's religiosity: cruel, man.

There was at least a reason for Lestat's meddling which those queer folk among us especially could find ourselves viscerally sympathizing with. So many of us have wanted to view religion as a site of healing, and then wondered why any God not utterly impotent lets us be persecuted in his name.

And while Lestat's persecution was for piety rather than homophobia, it rings such an answering cord we _understand why his rage lingered after Paul ripped open that wound—especially in light of Paul's prying around their relationship.

The part in death was not _excusable, but it was comprehensible and could have obscured Lestat's monstrosity somewhat.

But what happened with Lily, and then with father Mathias, leaves Lestat unequivocally as man capable of both great gentleness and out of proportion brutality.

"Lost in the throes of wonder" my GOD what a line to end on. The entire show's fearless sensuality—they're _flying! quite literally! during that first kiss—capped off by the church scene was a masterclass.

Lestat, burning a representation of his torment, and remaking it as a sight of queer desire, with the beauty of the kiss and all its jagged edges with the blood and flame? Literally consecrating their love amid the holiest element and the blood of Christ's avatars as a backward fuck you communion?

my scarred by religion queer soul soared.

Even as I sat in and appreciated the ambiguity of the decision to make Father Mathias warm and kind, the reminder that not all religion was cruel like Paul, and Lestat didn't need to go this far, caught between clapping and crying as I had been for an hour.

I'm sure the assistant will be important: he keeps being mentioned too much not to be, but right now, my focus is all Louie and Lestat all the time.

And that astonishingly beautiful: "I was seen." You cannot fully hate or condemn Lestat after that: not as a queer person especially, always craving reflection in someone else's gaze. You just. can't.

Also: best line of the show? "Why did you lie about leaving the opera early? You were nearly weeping when the curtain fell. Why hide that?" FUCK. Lestat glories in Louie's full, vivid self-expression. (Also, Lestat loves his Mum so much, even after these years—"she gave me every advantage as a young man" I'll die on this hill:  reveling in this man's ambiguity is the only thing allowing investment in this relationship and the entire production.

[ca-suffit]

I have the same feelings like you regarding season 3. If post s2 had given us interviews with the leads, the writers/showrunner talking about race and the trial, like, anything about the actual story of the season, I might, might, be able to look at s3 promo with a more positive attitude, but we got none of that. All we got was a "romantic" reunion, set-up for a future "less to blame, more a victim" Lestat and Louis who has already forgiven him. We also got a showrunner who talks about how much he wanted to do this show to adapt tvl. What does that tell me, someone who enjoyed the first 2 seasons immensely, when the showrunner says, that was all basically just pre-story, the thing he is actually passionate about will be this. It feels like they just wanted to get it over with to get to this, the white man's return. I knew about the books, but wasn't aware of the tone change, but before the s2 finale I would have said, they could still pull it off, but with every single thing I heard about season 3 up until now, I simply do not think so. They will promote the shit out of rockstar Lestat (more promo than any of the other seasons probably got, wonder why....) and they still could turn this into a much more serious story later in the season, but given that the show runner once again, stated that the show the fans knew is over, that does not appear to be the plan. I loved the gothic horror of s1 and 2, I had issues with some of the choices, no show is perfect, but I loved it. I hate that I still feel attached to the show or at least what it was.

The one thing I disagree with you is the vierwership, I can see more people turning in for s3, because Lestat is so "cunty, funny, evil" whatever, none of what has happened in the prior season will matter anymore.

"The one thing I disagree with you is the vierwership, I can see more people turning in for s3, because Lestat is so "cunty, funny, evil" whatever, none of what has happened in the prior season will matter anymore."

I do think it'll get more viewership in general, but I was thinking about specifically losing a large part of their black viewers to this and historically how that has gone for anything.

It also depends how they're going to address 1x5 anymore. If the trial version is all the commentary we get then there goes everything. Lestat still does a lot of heinous shit but, if Sam's commentary is anything go by, there's gonna be a big excuse for that at the end anyway. I'm still hanging on to see exactly what's shown in the series itself but S2 made me less enthusiastic. They've been softer on Lestat thru even more of his physically brutal scenes in the books but have no problem burning Louis multiple times fsr (none of which are book canon for these show events). Even when Sam pushed for it they didn't do it (the reunion). It all feels gross.

But, ya, I agree with u. I try to not doom spiral but it's harder to keep that mindset with all the fuckery between show and production for S2. I just don't think they give a shit.