#kyman meta

[kymantruther]

cupid ye was more kyman than it was style

seeing as south park episodes aren’t gonna come until march, this gives me the time to talk about cupid ye…which i’ve wanted to after the episode came out but i figured i wouldn’t have enough time to. so i really planned this analysis to be after all the episodes were made for s26…but again seeing as they’re on break, i took my chances.

so this is the perfect time for me to talk about cupid ye and how the episode always read more kyman than style to me. this may sound absurd considering the episode phrases stan and kyle’s relationship in a romantic way, but i find that’s all it extends to. let’s review the episode for a bit so i can elaborate. sure, the phrasing implies some sort of romance between stan and kyle, and there’s even a scene where stan is stammering and love struck when kyle talks to him. But we don’t ever see stan act upon this. notice how throughout the entire episode stan NEVER confronts kyle about how he misses hanging out with him? i see people call kyle a bad friend for “ditching” him, but it’s a notion i never got. stan never said anything to kyle about it, kyle’s not a bad friend for wanting to have fun with someone else, it’s not ditching in the slightest (unless you’re going to try and actually imply kyle belongs to stan and should only be around him 24/7). how was kyle supposed to know stan felt this way? he was having fun with tolkien, kyle’s suddenly villain for having fucking fun??? i can only blame stan in this situation because all he did was avoid the problem and act like it didn’t affect him (when it did).

even at the end of the episode, he only confronts tolkien not kyle. this just signifies to me there’s a clear communication problem in stan and kyle’s friendship. for an unknown reason, stan doesn’t want to address things with kyle. with this fact in mind, that scene where stan is nervous to talk to kyle at lunch suddenly doesn’t look so cute anymore, in fact, it demonstrates a legitimately problem of stan’s.

it’s no wonder stan and kyle’s friendship is breaking off, stan can’t even discuss his feelings with kyle. he does nothing but mope around and feel sorry for himself when he could literally fix the problem if he talked to his super best friend.

but opposed that to cartman in this episode. what does cartman do in the episode when he realizes he did something wrong? he acts. he realizes he’s gone way too far with the rumor about kyle running hollywood and he actually does something about it. sure, stan can stand in front of kyle to protect him (which tolkien did too so even that’s not a style moment lol) but cartman’s the one who forced cupid ye (arguably himself) to take his meds to save kyle.

cartman got kyle in this mess but he got kyle out of it.

and let’s talk about the initial synopsis for the episode too.

the synopsis says cartman is jealous. watching the ep, it appears stan is jealous, and he is. so why would it say cartman is jealous? because cartman is projecting. cartman ordinarily doesn’t care if stan and kyle have a fallout, actually he typically relishes in them. but that’s only because he gets kyle to himself (ex: assburgers, cbaa). but this time, tolkien and kyle hang out. so cartman takes stan’s jealousy and acts like he’s doing it for stan and his friendship with kyle, but in reality he’s doing it because he’s jealousy. just as the synopsis says.

and i don’t think it’s a coincidence cupid me, cartman’s gay conscious, is in this episode about cartman being jealous of tolkien and kyle’s friendship. in their valentine’s day episode at that ;).

so to summarize, it’s incredibly surface level to say this episode was style. this episode was kyman to the core and just furthers the theory that cartman is in love with kyle.

[ashes-goin-down]

Can we talk about Cartman's tendency to pet Kyle? And the way Kyle lets him do it?

It's such an under-discussed part of their dynamic. Cartman does this all the time. He does it to tease Kyle. He does it to comfort him. He does it to express gratitude. He even does it to pictures of Kyle when Kyle's not there.

And you could say that's just Cartman, he's just touchy, that's just how he expresses himself . . . except that it's really not. All this petting and stroking isn't something you see him do with Stan and Kenny. (Friends he has said multiple times he loves.) It's not something he does with his actual pet, Mr Kitty. It's not something he does with his mom. It's not even something he does with Heidi or Yentl. There's a lot of hand-holding and kissing in those relationships, but Cartman appears to consider this expected romantic partner behavior, and to be imitating that accordingly. What you don't see with them is the clingy, almost unconscious need to touch he demonstrates with Kyle. Kyle has to be stroked, patted, petted, hugged, poked, pulled on . . . it seems to be a comfort thing for Cartman, and that is just so fascinating to me.

It's also endlessly fascinating to me that Kyle - who has no problem putting Cartman in his place about anything else - allows this nearly every time. Maybe there's some token complaining, but he never actually tries to stop it. It's not "ew, Cartman is hugging me" it's always "why is Cartman hugging me?" and that's a subtle difference I think gets overlooked. People like to claim Kyle's response to Cartman having a crush on him would be disgust, and that Kyman could only ever be one-sided for this reason. But Kyle's response to Cartman being affectionate with him is actually pretty much always confusion, not disgust. I get the impression Kyle doesn't know how he feels about it.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but it's just so interesting to me, the relationship they both have to touch. Cartman uses Kyle to fulfil his need for touch and connection - and Kyle doesn't often reciprocate this touch, but he pretty consistently makes the concession of allowing it. They're feeling each other out, trying to work out "who are you to me and what do I feel for you?" It's one of the elements of Kyman that makes the ship so endearing, I think. There's this sweetness to it that absolutely should not exist between these characters, but does anyway.

Definitely! You’re right, Cartman does seem to seek out physical contact with Kyle considerably more than with anyone else he isn’t directly romantically involved with and my favourite instances of this is when he does so under the guise of antagonizing him. Two examples of this are the whole ‘Jennifer Lopez’-thing in “Fat Butt and Pancake Head” and Cartman promoting Kyle to the Germans in “Funnybot”. In both cases he uses an instance of disrespecting Kyle as a front to compliment him, with the ‘Jennifer Lopez’-persona constantly being gushing over him, telling him how much she likes him, calling him ‘handsome’ and of course ‘kissing’ him by Cartman pressing his hand against Kyle’s mouth. This is especially interesting considering the fact that later in the episode it is very heavily implied (and then pretty much outright confirmed in “200”) that Cartman really doesn’t have full control over the character. In “Funnybot” Cartman calls Kyle either ‘gentle/soft’ or ‘juicy’ (lol), ‘pretty’, and ‘very beautiful’ in extremely mangled German (which I guess is just regular German in-universe since the native speakers talk just like that) and while the context of the scene is obviously very dark for the viewer, who can infer what’s going on, Kyle doesn’t actually seem to realise what is happening. He doesn’t appear to understand what is being said at all and as such Cartman doesn’t even really have the excuse that he’s teasing him.

This scene fits the reaction you described that Kyle tends to have when Cartman engages him in physical contact very well: Kyle reacts to Cartman excessively touching him with confusion but simply lets it happen. He has every reason to be wary of Cartman’s intentions and yet he makes no effort to stop him from what he’s doing. In “ManBearPig” Kyle wakes up to find Cartman leaning over him and while he doesn’t actually touch him, he does get extremely close to him, giving us the famous image of their faces mere inches apart. Kyle’s reaction to this is incredibly understated: He appears at most slightly irritated and attempts neither to push Cartman off nor to move away from him. Once again, he mostly just seems confused by Cartman’s behaviour but, as far as we can see, makes no further attempts to investigate the reasons behind it. This understated reaction is an indication of an (imo) often overlooked aspect of their relationship, which is that while Kyle is well aware of what Cartman is theoretically capable of, he doesn’t actually seem worried that he’d ever seriously harm him. Personally, if I found myself trapped in a cave with a person who constantly professes his hatred for me and whom I know has no qualms about killing people, and then woke up to find said person looming over me in my sleep I’d be much more worried than Kyle appears to be. In fact, considering everything that has happened over the course of their relationship and how many despicable things Cartman has done, Kyle seems Weirdly Comfortable And Safe With His Evil, Ill-Intentioned Friend. Because that’s what they are: They’re friends. To call it a complicated friendship might be an understatement but when it comes down to it the simple fact of the matter is that these two do like each other. While in earlier seasons a point could be made that they only spend time together out of necessity (with the main four being somewhat isolated from the other kids, as Craig points out in “Pandemic 2”, and Cartman originally being an incidental part of the group as ‘the friend no one likes’), they’ve both long since expanded their social circles to a point where they are no longer ‘forced’ to spend time together for lack of better options. Kyle would be more than justified in cutting Cartman off completely and yet he doesn’t and I can honestly see no real reason for this other than the fact that he simply cares about him as a person.

So I agree that Kyle probably wouldn’t react with disgust to the hypothetical reveal that Cartman harbours romantic feelings towards him. I’m not claiming that he would necessarily be elated but I’m pretty sure ‘disgust’ would not be his first reaction and I think many people who think that it would be might at least partially hold that opinion due to projection: Because while we, as viewers, are frequently meant to find Cartman repulsive both physically and emotionally (his embodiment of the 'fat bastard' trope is a key part of his character, after all), Kyle doesn’t actually appear to overtly feel that way about him – which is to say he does kinda but not exclusively and it’s all just a bit more complicated than that. Kyle being thoroughly confused does seem like the most likely reaction to me. Regarding the physical aspect: Of course Kyle frequently makes derogatory remarks about Cartman’s appearance, specifically regarding his weight (to the point where it’s been a main focus of their dynamic for almost thirty years) but we see several times that his critique actually seems to stem from a place of worry and that he feels bad when he thinks that these comments have actually managed to hurt his feelings (e.g. “Raising the Bar”). Of course, what exactly Kyle’s feelings towards Cartman are is, with good reason, a source of much discussion and I’d claim that Kyle himself isn’t very sure of this. His sentiment towards Cartman definitely seems very erratic, with Kyle going from actively attempting to get him killed in “Fatbeard” to being concerned for his emotional well-being just a season later (“201”, “Poor and Stupid”). This concern Kyle has for a person he supposedly can’t stand has been a pretty consistent part of his character in later seasons and it’s especially striking when compared to the way he disregards his best friend’s feelings when he’s in genuine need of emotional support (“Raisins”, “You’re Getting Old”). This discrepancy is not only an indicator of the complicated relationship Kyle has with Cartman but imho also hints at at least one reason for it. In a (painfully long-winded😅) comment on AO3 I just touched on the similarities between Kyle and Cartman how interesting I find the very different ways in which they deal with their shared character traits. I believe this is something that draws them towards each other, though I’m certain that neither is actually consciously aware of this. You put it so beautifully in your last sentence: "There's this sweetness to it that absolutely should not exist between these characters, but does anyway." There really is an unexpectedly soft underbelly to their relationship that is a lot of fun to explore. While I wont deny the toxic aspects of this ship (in fact, they’re a major part of what I find interesting about it), there is also the surprising potential for a real emotional connection between these characters.

[rx-aysgl]

On Kyle's Side: My Personal Take on Cartman And Kyle's Dynamic From Kyle's Point Of View

This is a four part essay in which i explore Cartman and Kyle's relationship, focusing primarily on Kyle's perspective. As said, i have broken it down into four different parts titled:

Sense of Identity

Martyr Complex and Competitiveness

Cartman

Their Relationship

There will be an extra chapter where i will make some additional commentary.

Hope you guys enjoy.

1. Sense of Identity and Selfishness

In the show Kyle is always concerned about “doing the right thing”, at least that's what he likes to tell himself. Though in reality, he is extremely selfish when push comes to shove and the reason for that stems from his constant questioning of his own identity and his stance in things. This makes him come off as rather inconsistent in a lot of ways. As a result, Kyle feels very lost. So what does he do? He decides to base his opinions and feelings and thoughts off of his environment because his own existance overwhelms him so much (eg. the "Tooth Fairy Tats 2000" episode). This puts him into this vicious cycle where he keeps getting lost even more due to not being able to pinpoint his own frame of thought and latching onto the external world that consists of many different people who have found their own way in life who also keep changing constantly and thus leaving all kinds of contradicting impressions on him. Throughout the series we see him try to change his apparence, religion, even his personality for the sake of fitting in (this also correlates to his martyr complex which i will get to). He creates this moral code for himself that he conditions himself to stick to in order to find his own identity and feel a sense of belonging but the sheer inconsistency of said moral code causes him to come off as indecisive, sometimes as a people pleaser and sometimes a hypocrite.

His defiance of a stable frame of mind pushes him to act on instinct and his momentary emotions while his refusal of self-acceptance causes him to distance his true self from others he considers close to him (Stan), hence the selfishness. It makes sense because how could someone get close to another when he can't even make peace with his own identity?

The reason i am mentioning this is to point out that since Cartman is so extreme in his beliefs and deliberately commits so many evil and selfish deeds, Kyle is obsessively drawn to him because it is so easy to call out and oppose him. Their polarity makes Kyle feel a sense of self he doesnt allow himself to truly make peace with and sugarcoat how fucked up he can be just like all the people in South Park that have wronged him but not enough to channel these feelings into. Cartman keeps Kyle grounded. Just like basically every other kid in the show, Kyle has done terrible things but he is so concerned about being right that he has to have Cartman by his side to make him escape from his own inner conflicts by reflecting it directly onto Cartman, the one person he is actually much more similar to more than he likes to think but he can only subconsciously acknowledge it.

2. Martyr Complex and Competitiveness

Another very essential aspect we need to pay attention to is Kyle's martyr complex. Kyle feels the need to not only to do the right thing but also to “sacrifice himself” for it. He is so self righteous to the point that not only does he not acknowledge his own flaws he also thinks he has to be and is some kind of heroic figure to others (eg. "Ginger Cow"), though this is more subtle compared to the other aspects of his personality.

The martyr complex causes Cartman to be seen as an even easier target than he already is and Cartman is more than willing to exploit Kyle for it hence feeding his very own complexes. They mutually feed off of each other to the point they are obsessed with each other and need each other. I would also like to point out that Kyle often shares some of his most vulnerable moments when Cartman is by his side in a suprising way (eg. choosing to stay by Cartman's side in the "You're Getting Old" and "Ass Burgers" episodes as an escape from Stan's depression at the time, crying with Cartman in "Kenny Dies" etc.) and vice versa. Though this is hard to notice on Cartman's side because Kyle conveys his vulnerability via confusion, sadness and desparation whereas Cartman does so via anger, jealousy and revenge.

3. Cartman

Cartman chastising Kyle like this most likely stems from how he believes Kyle was the catalyst to how fucked up he turned out to be due to his constant agression and bullying towards him in the earlier seasons, where he was mostly just a spoiled brat and nowhere near as bad as he is now. His pent up fury leads Cartman to also feel an extreme amount of envy towards Kyle with the reason of Cartman being a little more capable than Kyle at recognizing how him and Kyle share many similarities (being very emotionally driven, selfishness, neuroticism, stubbornnes, a habit of denying their own mistakes) who is in full denial of it on a conscious level. Cartman does try to get closer to Kyle and also the rest of his friends and seek their validation in the earlier seasons but as time goes by he realizes more and more that Kyle does not get the same treatment as him regardless.

Therefore, Cartman blames Kyle for his suffering and takes it all out on him in various disgusting ways because he thinks that Kyle deserves all the terrbile things happening to him.

It is very important to take into consideration how abhorrent Cartman's upbringing was and how influential it is to the way he feels towards Kyle. All of his childhood; he was raised with all kinds of abuse, neglect, extensive bullying and was depraved of almost all positive emotions. The result of this is Cartman ending up percieving positive emotions in a very traumatized, distorted and disturbing way. With this gradual build-up and "Scott Tennorman Must Die" being his breaking point by spreading fear to all of South Park and feeling an overwhelming amout of attention on him that he craved so much, Cartman ultimately comes to the conclusion that he can only and only validate himself by inflicting negativity on others. Independent from being conventionally "positive" or "negative" emotions, post-Scott Tennorman Cartman correlates all of his emotions to seeking attention and asserting himself as much as he can in means of a defense mechanism and in means of validating his own existance. His real feelings are filtered through a broken perspective, of which are conveyed intensely to the people he feels strongly about like Kyle or Liane.

How this all comes back to Kyle lies in the fact that Cartman also "benefits" from the way Kyle caters to his own problems via their seemingly very polarized relationship, not only does Cartman keep Kyle grounded as mentioned but Kyle does keep Cartman grounded as well.

At this point, their individual vicious cycles have become one, a constant play of cat and mouse; with both of them unable to differentiate which one is which, ever chasing.

4. Their Relationship

Describing their feelings towards each other as solely hate wouldn’t do justice to the times they tried so hard to keep the other in their lives (eg. the "Smug Alert" and "Skank Hunt" episodes) not only for the sake of just existing in each others lives or keeping in touch etc. but also to keep each other in their individual loops they are in, of which they cannot maintain with anyone else.

As a consequence Kyle and Cartman’s mutual obsession with each other leads them to go such lengths as saving each other multiple times. However, since there is a perpetual competitiveness between them due to Cartman's evny towards Kyle and Kyle's insatiable need to prove himself to be better than Cartman, they simply cannot stand each other’s happiness, especially if it involves someone really close to them, like a partner. Cartman ruining Kyle's potential romantic relationship with Nicole in "Cartman Finds Love" and Kyle trying to ruin Cartman's relationship with Heidi in "Doubling Down" and Kyle being unable to appreciate Cartman finally changing his ways for good and having a loving relationship and family in the Post Covid specials are all examples of both of them selfishly trying to involve the other in their own issues they should be able to deal with on their own, only have they not been such self absorbed people.

Their rivalry brings out the best and the worst in each other and they both know deep down that they are just like each other and they both hate it and feel an odd sense of comfort in it. That is exactly the reason why they simply cannot stand when the one of them goes on to have a happier life than the other. Not only do they feel as if they have lost some kind of battle but they also feel abandoned when it happens.

Extra Thoughts:

I find their relationship to be extremely complex and honest to god it has my multi media overthinker ass climbing up the walls and shitting furnitures. They are my favorite characters in the show and analyzing both of them was such treat to me. Due to some things i have mentioned in this essay especially on the last chapter, you can interpret some of them in the same vein as some kind of shipping subtext, even though this essay is essentially written in means of sheerly exploring this dynamic as it is. I honestly like keeping things really ambigious without necessarily categorizing relationships as romantic or platonic but if written properly i can enjoy both renditions of this relationship.

In order to clarify some things, i can enjoy romantic kyman ONLY AND ONLY in the condition of Cartman bettering himself over the years. I know it would be really difficult and may seem impossible to most of you but i find it an interesting and challenging story to think about and create content for. I believe that Eric is forever gonna stay as an asshole and i do not expect him to become an angel in the future. However I also think of him to be a really traumatized 8 year old, who is a really fucked up product of his really fucked up environment, a child who is smart enough to learn to be a better person, especially to those he values as his friends if given the proper opportunity. I do not think that their relationship will ever be a conventionally and classically an ideal one, especially from an outsider's perspective but Kyle and Cartman (and the entirety of South Park's cast) are both very far from being ideal human beings in the first place. At the end of the day, relationships can be very complex and unhealthy in real life, they always come in different colors and shapes. It is okay to explore a relationship in fiction without thinking it is the ideal relationship or the relationship you want to have in your own lives. It is okay to explore a relationship because it is interesting and well-written. This is what media literacy is all about.

As a disclaimer before some dumbass ship discourse happens, there are ofc some lines not to cross like the romanticization of inc*st, p*dophilia, r*pe and things like ww2 aus and shit btw. That being said, if you cannot separate fiction and reality to the extent i talked about in the previous chapter, this is your stupidity. Stop making it everybody's fucking problem.

anyways im gonna be extra deadass rn if someone gave me a 100k word long collage au that is written properly i would eat that shit up like theres no tomorrow. it doesnt even have to be romantic i just want more of them they are so interesting 😭😭😭 they also funny as fuck so the 2012 yaoi becomes even funnier. what a great dynamic godzamn 😭😭😭😭

Thanks for reading!!!

[roostertuftart]

I saw someone say the other day that style would never work because Kyle needs someone that challenges him and

1. Idk where you got the idea Stan doesn’t challenge Kyle because oh boy does he

2. Also like. Idk? Challenge him how? Fight with him? It’s fine if you like kyman or whatever but Kyle is a really insecure character who CRAVES having people stand by him and support him. If anything, having Stan support him more (and vice versa Kyle supporting Stan) is what their relationship needs to work, not someone who’s gonna fight with Kyle and give him a hard time constantly/leave him to fend for himself more

[numbknee]

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: South Park Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Kyle Broflovski/Eric Cartman, Kyle Broflovski & Stan Marsh Characters: Kyle Broflovski, Eric Cartman, Stan Marsh, Kenny McCormick Additional Tags: Relationship Problems, Secret Relationship, again...barely secret lol, Aged-Up Character(s), Kissing, Making Out, Fear of Discovery, Friendship Problems, Canon-Typical Antisemitism, Arguing, Relationship Negotiation, kyman has taken over my life help Series: Part 3 of i'm with stupid Summary:

Kyle and Cartman struggle to keep their relationship a secret, yielding less than favorable outcomes for everyone involved.

(inspired by this post from the lovely @victimized-martyr because GOD the meta is so damn good 😭🙏)

[victimized-martyr]

do you have any bitterness towards style shippers? since you mentioned you don’t like shippers that harass other shippers

nah. I have bitterness towards assholes that make a habit outta harassin other ppl— i don’t care whether if they ship style or not. That’s not to say I don’t notice the majority (or at least a vocal percentage) of style shippers tend to be antagonistic towards kyman shippers. So, I am wary when I come across someone who says they like style. but in my experience, there are many styles who also ship kyman or are just chill.

I’d much rather come across someone who ships style and we simply agree to disagree, and talk about other aspects of the show, because there’s so much to appreciate and laugh abt sp. Or, happily discuss our point of view!

[cheesy-poofs]

Why Kyman?

This was a long time coming, so I decided it would be fun to touch upon some of my feelings on this ship Its mostly because its the ship I decided to stick with and I'm not a huge shipper in general. Honestly I didn't ship anything for most of the time I watched the show. Style, Kenman, Bunny, ect. never appealed to me because I thought they would work the same as friends (not that I have anything against those ships). Cartman and Kyle are a different story, though.

These are my feelings as of now, and are always subject to change. This is less of a meta post, and I mostly made it to think through some of my feelings about Kyman and some other ships. I touch upon some controversies lightly. This is not meant to be a discourse post, however.

Well, let's proceed. I wrote this all in one sitting, so its not well-thought out or anything, I might clean it up later or specify things better but in the meantime, I'm posting this raw.

First off, I'll touch upon how I ended up getting into it.

As for when I realized I loved Cartman and Kyle's dynamic a lot, it begun in the episodes "Tonsil Trouble" and later on "Cartman Finds Love" which made me appreciate the humor of the ship. When I finished watching the show, I thought it would be fun to look into the different ships of the fandom and decide what I liked. This actually begun with Candy (Cartman x Wendy) because I enjoyed their episodes and thought they were funny. But something felt like it was missing in that ship; it just didn't feel like there was enough there, and my interest in it was short-lived.

Then I came across my first Kyman fic, and if its not evident, I ended up really liking that fic...and reading a ton more Kyman fanfics and falling deeper into this ship. I don't read fanfics anymore because a lot of them don't quite capture the characters in a way I enjoy, but it did lead to me obsessing over Kyman and rewatching most of the episodes about them.

Then I made this account. I lurked on here for a while but I think I started actually posting on Stan/Trey's birthday. I was happy to see a lot of other people who still enjoyed Kyman, let alone South Park. I didn't touch social media during my first binge of the show, save YouTube or sometimes Pinterest. I also had no friends who liked South Park at the time, which was part of the reason I made a Tumblr in the first place. I wanted somewhere I could actually see people who were as obsessed as I was/am.

This was when I learned that Kyman was controversial. Honestly, I never thought of Kyman as "Nazi x Jew" because I didn't define them as characters purely based upon that. I never really saw Kyman as a wholesome ship either, but I kind of liked that aspect because its a fucked up relationship on both ends. They're just fictional characters who often do really fucked up things because apart of South Park's humor is kids doing things they normally don't do. That's why I roll my eyes at people trying to argue which ships are "abusive" or not because it doesn't matter. They're not real. You can have distaste for ships or be uncomfortable with Kyman because of the nature of the ship, that's fine. But its really not as bad as people make it out to be; not inherently.

Recently, I've reconsidered my feelings about Cartman, but that doesn't ruin Kyman for me because, at the end of the day, I ship them purely for fun. I don't take this show that seriously. I also don't get people trying to argue that Kyman is less tropey than other ships because its honestly just typical "Enemies to Lovers" (which isn't a bad thing, but let's be honest with ourselves, its a huge fandom trope). I have no issues with people shipping Style even if its not my thing, and I'll admit a lot of Kyman shippers have this weird superiority complex. I probably used to, but I try not to come off that way anymore. When I say Kyman is the most interesting ship to me I try to make it clear that its only my very subjective opinion. I'm biased because its the first ship I latched onto, and I still enjoy it a lot and find comfort in it.

So to summarize some of my current feelings; I think Cartman is (obviously) a horrible person, and I think people try too hard to soften him up or make excuses for his actions. I enjoy people going over why Cartman is the way he is now, yes, and I think Cartman is a really damaged kid and I get sympathetic of him sometimes myself. He's my favorite for a reason, he wouldn't be the same character if he wasn't awful. But even if I've been a bit of a "Cartman apologist" myself, I've come to accept that he will likely always be awful, and that's fine; that's by design, that's his purpose in the show, and I love him for it. I think people feel guilty for liking Cartman when there's no reason to, just because you like him doesn't mean you're okay with his actions. There might be some dumbasses who idolize Cartman, but they probably shouldn't be watching South Park anyway. Let's not forget what kind of show this is:

I don't like it when people try to exclude Cartman either, because South Park would be nothing without him. I think about "The Death of Eric Cartman" a lot and how it shows that the boys could leave him anytime, and Kyle even admits that he knows Cartman thrives off attention (ironic since Kyle tends to give him a lot of attention, its a big reason why Cartman is so obsessed with him). My point is that the boys still choose to hang out with him despite it all, because they actually don't hate Cartman completely. Yes, they do sometimes, and they'll obviously say that they don't care about him, but often their actions show the opposite. Either way, he's a very significant part of the show, and I do not want to see the sanitized show other fans want this to be.

I don't think Kyle is quite as bad as Cartman (however I would argue Cartman, Stan, and Kyle are all huge assholes and deserve each other). Regardless, it won't stop me from shipping Kyman because I purely like the way they work off of each other, and I personally only care about Kyle when he's paired with Cartman. That's why Kyman is my only Kyle ship.

I thought this post would end up being longer, but I think I touched upon most of my thoughts. Remember, this isn't exhaustive, nor is it definitive. I essentially try to look at Kyman from a neutral perspective, acknowledging both of their faults while also not taking it too seriously, especially given what show we're watching. They're both interesting, layered, and morally questionable characters with a lot of episodes I really like. That's the gist of it.

[bunbun206]

Convert me into Kyman it confounds me but I an intrigued. I understand it yet I'm confused. /gen /pos

I might not be the best person to ask this. A lot of my enjoyment of Kyman comes from the fact that I think as a duo they’re really funny and I enjoy their antics when they share the same goal. There’s other things I like about Kyman like i feel like they need each other to heal I guess. I’m particularly drawn to the idea of obsession and being obsessed with someone but not knowing why that I feel like Kyman embodies well. But I’m not a super big analyst and I wouldn’t be able to properly convey to you why I exactly like this ship. I think @victimized-martyr and @numbknee has some great Kyman meta stuff that I think is worth checking out.

[north-park]

... just saw a very bad """""""meta""""""" like damn kymans really watch the show with salami over their eyes

[spjohnv-blog]

Contemporary Figures

cheylouwho - Chey is knowledgeable and extremely nice and it says a lot about how approachable she is how many people use her inbox like a friendly discussion forum. She has co-organized a lot of fandom projects like Reanimate, the La Resistance musical, backing up parts of the South Park Studios board, and I'm probably scratching the surface here. (Sorry to sound like a suck up)

HighJewElfKing - Not well known in the creative side of fandom but the administrator of the South Park Archives for several years now and someone who done some important work for South Park on discord. This is a huge amount of influence that is easily to overlook but he has accomplished some truly incredible things.

skrtomg - Her inclusion could be justified by fanfic alone but she also organized the Big Bang, a pretty colossal undertaking with influence on influence, and she posts some of the best fandom meta on tumblr and is incredibly self-aware. there are analysis points she makes I still think about ages later.

Blooms - The first person to achieve success with South Park video essays on YouTube and have seen firsthand new fans who use him as their first point of reference.

Historical Figures

Big-Will - Ran the South Park Scriptorium for over twenty years and the South Park Studios official message board, and was dedicated to both until basically last year or the year before, which is a record I doubt anyone can ever match or break.

Sweeet - 3D Fan art that littered Google for close to a decade and was widely reposted as desktop wallpapers, was even mentioned by South Park Studios in official posts at one time, even had a couple short comebacks.

Seaouryou - One of the earlier slash fanfiction authors on FanFiction.Net and while I think her influence has somewhat tapered off over time, it was pretty major in its day, especially for containing a real mixture of slash and heterosexual relationships when this was less common and a lot of slice of life humor. "The Journal of One Kenny McCormick" was a favorite of mine, and "Craig, Leader of the Lawn Gnomes" is up there. Many reviews up in the hundreds.

DanniDinmont - Influence in the fandom is not always positive, nor always negative, but nobody could argue "Kyle in Chains" isn't influential. It is the fanfic discussed in whispers (by which I mean screamed out loudly on Discord calls) and the fanfic minors dare each other to read to gross each other out in the way that kids do. The infamy is, of course, self-sustaining: people leave reviews to express disgust, the number of reviews and views are taken as popularity, repeat.

Neocarleen - At one time, an administrator on both South Park wikis who also produced fan works in her own right. Huge influence over the knowledge base of fandom and one of few people who was really involved in both sides of it.

Ukaisha - This is a tricky one. Her askbox was, again, a lot like a community forum, and fan art was reblogged dozens of times a day, and then it all came to a head in the memorable experiment of handing the blog off to a dozen people with conflicting views, and I don't think influence outlasted that.

askmarshlovski, hellpark - Both of these ask blogs were really popular and had people genuinely invested in their stories. Both were so popular that the characters and ships they focused on received some new attention and focus as a result, and some of the characters they involved were irrevocably changed in some fan circles, particularly the latter. I'm not well acquainted with the authors and I've heard some negative examples too.

ric122 - The textbook example of negative influence. I know many, many people who claim they cannot ship Stan/Wendy because of him and his behavior, and he's created fandom memes with his notoriety.

?? - there is a specific Kyman shipper who drove a close friend of mine out of fandom, clearly had beef with a lot of people, ran a pro-harassment blog, and seems disliked even among other Kyman fans who seem embarrassed by them, too. not sure their public name.

Honorary Mentions

I considered including a handful of influential fanfiction authors (foodstamp, eerily, Qindarka, hollyhark, zombiecest) whose fame is enough I can remember their names without having read much of their work, but my lack of familiarity with their works made it come off kinda fake and forced. Iinfluence in fan art is so hard to measure, nhaingen comes to mind first there but I think her shitposting also played a huge role in her popularity.

There's also at least a few people who might qualify who I am just too unsure the extent of their influence versus my own interest invading, and there's two people who I'd like to list but I'm not sure if they'd want to be included for privacy reasons.

I've got my own answers to this but I'm very curious if it lines up with the consensus of the fanbase:

Who would you consider to be some of the most iconic/influential figures in south park fandom history? Like who's names immediately come to mind when you think about the fandom?

This could be the usernames of people who were/are artists, writers, bloggers, maybe just people who were enough of a nuisance to garner attention. This isnt just limited to tumblr (though thats how I've experienced the last 12 years), this could even be things as far back as chatrooms and forums that are now defunct, or on other socials that maybe I'm not aware of their impact.

Maybe reply to this post or shoot me an anon ask if you're shy about it? I really would love to hear for research purposes

[enbystankyle]

hii i have only started watching sp this year so i am very new LOL i am trying to draw more so hopefully expect art hehe, any 20+ enjoyers lets be besties!!  and its fine if you follow but i dont feel comfortable interacting with anyone under 18 other than art/ meta reblogs 🙏

i enjoy meta about the show, character analysis, and i have been stricken with stankyle illness, but i enjoy other ships too [but pls dni if you like kyman] 

[ashes-goin-down]

I think Cartman hates jewish people and -Kyle- too much to be vulnerable like you've depicted. No matter what level of physical attraction he might feel.

Hi there, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately I wrote a whole-ass novel in response so here's the TL;DR so you don't actually have to read all that: I agree that the comic is OOC but I don't think it's because of Cartman's hatred of Kyle or Jewish people.

Sorry for misusing your message to go on a somewhat loosely related rant but I've been meaning to write this for a while and it came as a convenient excuse lmao _

I agree with you regarding the vulnerability. I don't think Cartman would voice his feelings like that unless (he could claim that) it's a farce (e.g., Jenny Simons, "Cartman Finds Love") or the other person shows interest in him first so he feels safe from rejection (Heidi, initially - not opening that whole can of worms rn lol). For example, he treated his attraction to Patty Nelson as a big secret, apparently not even considering ever confessing to her, and that's most likely because he was expecting the reaction she did end up giving him since, beneath his self-deceit, he's excruciatingly aware of the fact that he's actually not exactly highly regarded by his peers.

It's a lot of work upholding the façade he's build for himself of being this cool, esteemed person and it cracks easily even without direct outside influence (for example when Clyde Frog or Cupid Me insult him) so he really, really doesn't deal with rejection very well. Him being this vulnerable to Kyle specifically and then getting rejected would be absolutely catastrophic for him, so I agree that he wouldn't put himself in that position. However, it's my opinion that the most OOC thing about the comic is the fact that he simply acknowledges that Kyle hates him. I don't actually think he'd just accept that but would instead convince himself that it isn't true ("Kyle has internalized homophobia" or better yet "Kyle doesn't think he's worthy of someone as cool and awesome as me") and then do some crazy shit to try and win him over.

So yeah, you're right: He Would Not Fucking Say That. I don't think his hatred of Kyle and/or Jewish people is the reason he wouldn't, though, as I believe Cartman's feelings towards Kyle and Judaism are a lot more complicated than that. It's not without reason that his relationships with both are such a big part of the show and that people smarter than me have written whole essays on the topic lmao

I feel the need to clarify that I am in no way trying to excuse any of Cartman's antisemitism! I'd just like to voice a few thoughts on its origin and evolution.

Cartman is clearly weirdly obsessed with both Kyle and his religion and obviously they are linked. While I suppose initially it might have been a bit of a chicken-egg situation ("He hates Kyle because he hates Jews" vs. "He hates Jews because he hates Kyle"), I believe originally his antisemitism may have simply been a byproduct of his fascination with the third reich, which itself I think was mostly a result of his enjoyment of envisioning himself as a dictator (i.e. the ultimate authority figure) and as such was actually pretty surface-level - as is evident from the fact that for a long time he didn't seem to fully grasp what exactly Judaism even IS (as shown when he apologizes to Kyle for calling him a Jew or when he uses the term as an insult towards Stan and Kenny). Still, I very much dislike it when people try to downplay his bigotry as naivety. That really doesn't hold any water after very early on in the show, if it ever even did in the first place, since he definitely acts from a place of malice and over time his fixation on the religion seems to have developed into something bigger. He's learnt more about it and it became much more synonymous with Kyle for him (the order of which is also debatable but I of course lean a certain way). At this point in the show I believe it's safe to say that he wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with Judaism if Kyle wasn't Jewish. While Cartman is obviously a bigoted asshole in many ways, he's not nearly as preoccupied with other minority groups as he is with Jews and he has even shown himself to be surprisingly tolerant of homosexuals and disabled people (who, of course, were also heavily persecuted under Nazism).

I really do think that "Jewpacabra" did leave a lasting impact on his character. It's pretty obvious that he was being genuine at the end of of the episode and actually did intent on self-identifying as Jewish from then on (and iirc M&T confirmed as much in the commentary to that episode and explained that they just sort of… forgot about that lol) and then in "Shots" he does claim to be Jewish and while that may have been in an attempt to get a vaccination exemption, the aforementioned commentary makes me believe it may not exclusively be that.

Notably, he specifically calls himself an "Orthodox Jew", which Kyle obviously doesn't seem to be and that ties in nicely with him becoming a rabbi in PC and making the religion his entire personality - because it's not enough to become Jewish: He needs to beat Kyle at being Jewish.

Of course, Cartman never actually stops being antisemitic before the time skip but then "Cupid Ye" implies that that isn't even a fully conscious decision that he can completely control but instead at least partially caused by whatever he has going on mentally. He even actively attempts to counteract it when he decides that it has gone too far. That's my take on the episode, at least. Obviously the whole thing with Cupid Me is kind of messy. No matter what exactly is actually happening there, I do think the his actions here prove that his feelings regarding the matter are more complex than they may initially appear to be.

Though I know it's still a point of contention for many, to me personally it seems pretty clear that him being a rabbi and a family man in PC was authentic and that he wasn't simply messing with Kyle the entire time. However, I find it extremely interesting that Cartman converted BEFORE meeting Yentl so I actually don't see any way in which Kyle didn't have any part in that and as such I don't think he would have ever become a rabbi if Kyle didn't happen to be Jewish. So my personal headcanon is that while Cartman's conversion was indeed directly influenced by Kyle, he actually did end up finding fulfillment in the faith and it ironically helped him let go of his obsession with him (which I think fits the show's style of humor).

To summarize: As a shipper I may be biased but I think that Cartman is a disturbed little boy who grows up to be a disturbed little man who fails to fully understand his feelings towards Kyle and - as an extension of that - the Jewish faith and thus lashes out into extremes regarding it.

[kymantruther]

let’s talk about kyle with stan and cartman

when i watched you’re getting old and ass burgers, i was immediately drawn to the change in stan and kyle’s relationship. when stan grew depressed and suffered through alcoholism, it shocked me how quick kyle was willing to ditch his, proclaimed by him, “super best friend” because of it. i’m not faulting kyle, if someone makes you feel bad then you have no obligation to be their therapist. but it’s worth inspecting how throughout the entirety of the two episodes, kyle didn’t ask stan once what’s wrong or check up on him. 

and kyle is probably so avoidant of checking up on stan because he acts on his own comfort. when throughout the day, stan is constantly spewing something cynical, you’d expect him to check up on him, but instead he lets stan off with a warning, that if he kept being cynical he wouldn’t hang out with him. and it’s also probably a combo of kyle not doing so well w/ sadness in general?? like when stan was sad about his break up with wendy, kyle’s immediate thought was to distract him and show him there’s more fish in the sea by taking him to raisins. when really all stan needed was to express his emotions and process them (like when he got sad about his break up w/ wendy and joined the goth kids and, what do you know, by expressing and processing his emotions he was able to move forward + you’re allowed to feel sad after a break up??). it just proves to me that kyle isn’t comfortable with sadness (at least with stan). 

and it’s funny kyle acts on his comfort, because as soon as stan gets depressed, kyle hangs out w/ cartman??? like if anyone should make you uncomfortable it’s cartman, and it makes it worse that all these two do is fight and bicker. but kyle chooses to hang out w/ him regardless and…really enjoys his time with him. he has his alone time w/ him, takes his time to look at him and smile, he engages in conversation with him w/o a single line of banter, he was more than willing to help cartman make money and help him in his burger business. all these scenes portray kyle as being comfy w/ cartman, and it’s probably why he decided to spend his time alone w/ him when stan was sad, BECAUSE he knows he’s comfortable with cartman.

cartman is someone i think kyle knows he needs, he’s someone whose feelings are never complicated, he’s rarely actually depressed and never cynical. and kyle sticks by cartman despite his opposing, infuriating beliefs—but kyle needs someone to challenge his mindset and that’s why i think he’s so, for a lack of a better words, obsessed with him. he finds it interesting that someone could have such views, to be so out of the ordinary, and typically that would be out of someone’s comfort level, but for kyle, arguing w/ cartman is IN his comfort level (i point to when the parents accompanied the kids at the bus stop and they’re like “pretend we’re not here, do what you normally do” and kyle immediately insults cartman lol). 

while on the other hand, stan feels complicated emotions, he gets depressed and he virtually shares the same beliefs as kyle. stan is someone too unpredictable to kyle, and he’s so willing to leave him when things affect him, he’s so willing to do something that makes him feel happy even if it’s at the expense of stan. and it just appears to me that kyle doesn’t need stan. he seems fulfilled with cartman, and when stan catches him in his lie about being sick (in actuality he didn’t wanna hang out with him), kyle is like “oh awkward sorry dude you’re just a debbie downer :(“ and just goes back to cartman (and cartman definitely caught on this all btw he has these “is he bothering you babe” attitude when stan confronts kyle)

thx for coming to my ted talk

[ouchmaster6000]

South Park is funny, you shouldn't ban it.

@weirderworld10 @south-park-gifs @southparkdigital @southpark-gifs @green-alien-turdz

@kickstheclown @weedle-testaburger @madame-helen @nabasart @south-park-dimensions

@south-park-fanart-archive @south-park-meta @cartmanbrahofficial @ericcartmn @rraspberryramen

@emilyartstudio-s @rainyfroggy @flowernets @songofassandfire @real-south-park-confessions

@rariatoo @mirrorshards @jennletsgo @hillhomed @katoimarun

@lesliemeyers @alovember @th3vau1t @southparkhcsocs @cheylouwho

@ladyybuuggg @fennecfiree @cielsiesta @zuoschlecht @buttfrovski

@crimsondawnstan

@style-and-kyman @urspopinionsareshit @behind-the-blow @binonana @squeege-chomp

@2x2equalsu @wendyisamazing @whatdoessunshinetastelike @toms-rhinoplasty @lamerandgayer

@broflovski-aligned @princessmarionette @candyunicornsateme @imaginationlandtrilogy @igotcredbitches

@styleyaoi @kyles-afro @rhirhidamiengurl666 @smarshley @rockshrimp1989

@how-i-lost-my-mind @muttsterion @sp-kenny-mccormick @north-park @bzzzzzzzzzzzz

@artmancay @rx-aysgl @screwyouguys-imgoing-home @flippingyouoff

@dawn-of-the-posers

a few anons are concerned about this because of the political opinions expressed in the show and held by the creators. these are valid concerns and i want to see opinions to make sure this page is comfortable for everyone!

there is currently one sp character in the queue, i believe, and i’m not sure when they’re scheduled to be posted. i’m not going to take that character out (i’m currently out of town and have just enough scheduled to get the queue through the flight home), but any south park submissions after that will be deleted and ignored just like hp, hb, and hh if that’s what’s voted on.

[numbknee]

y’all I’m like.... in shock about how good "cupid ye” was. holy shit. rambling and spoilers under the cut!

first of all, I can’t believe the fans were right about a valentine’s day ep and also tiktok being a centerpoint way before any details of the ep were announced lmao. y’all manifested that shit good for you!!

biggest thing I wanna say is that this was a cartman meta GOLD MINE. like... canon just confirmed that cartman takes meds for psychosis!! I feel so validated for headcanoning him as schizophrenic (and I know a lot of other ppl did too). this would also potentially be another reason as to why cartman is so fat compared to the other kids: a major common side effect of antipsychotic medications is weight gain!! esp with drugs like clozaril or zyprexa. yes we see that he often overindulges with junk food but his meds could 100% be contributing to his appetite!!! gahhh my med student ass loves this shit so much

and can I say that I LOVE that cartman is able to fight back against his own psyche by confronting cupid ye at the end!! he DOES have self awareness! he DOES have a conscience goddammit!!! he’s able to recognize that he’s been off his meds, that his delusions are becoming dangerous, that he’s hurting his friends. and even though it all went to shit he only started interfering because he was sad for stan like 🥺🥺🥺 he fucking cares you guys!!!! i’m so proud of him!!!!! 

but of course my kyman truther ass also interpreted it as cartman being jealous too and subconsciously recognizing that if kyle hangs out with stan more again, he’ll also be hanging out with cartman again since they’re in the same friend group. he can’t ask kyle to spend time with him directly because he’d 1000% suspect cartman is up to something so getting him back in the group through stan is probably the most effective way he could have done it. he’s a smart kid y’all.

ANYWAY that’s enough rambling for now. ‘twas a good episode. maybe I’ll make a better detailed post about interpreting cartman as having schizophrenia (and how it influences his current and potential future relationship with kyle) another day

[theoncomingchaos]

Future Cartman Theory

Cartman has been queer coded for so long on this show it’s pretty undeniable that he isn’t completely straight. I mean there is an ABUNDANCE of evidence to show that he has sexual interest in men; for example, his obsession with getting Kyle to suck him off (Imaginationland) or finger him (Anal probe), the notebook drawings in the game of boys he knows fucking (including several drawings of Kyle), and his experience with cupid me where even his mother’s reaction suggests that he was exploring his sexuality through masturbation (Tweek & Craig-literally done as a beautiful parallel between LGBT kids who have supportive environments and the struggles some individuals still face with their sexuality). These are also, of course, only some of the more blatant examples. 

So, that being said, why the wife and kids?

Honestly, just because he has a wife and kids doesn’t mean he is magically suddenly straight. If anything, it seems even more like a desperate attempt to try and convince himself that he is straight while still struggling with old obsessions and natural urges. (This tendency of trying to fit in and be what others want is also something we have seen him do many times, the most obvious example being when he destroyed his dolls (queer coded interest) to “grow up” like the others said to do.) 

A lot of his relationship seems to be a mixture of his ongoing obsession with Kyle and his desperate need to fit in. Finding a Jewish woman and living a life fully committed to the religion is somewhat like “having your cake and eating it too.” He gets to be straight, normal, and have a “perfect family” through a female and therefore “normal” and safe version of Kyle. 

The reason behind this interpretation is that he is constantly getting sexual with her in front of Kyle, even continuing to fuck her knowing that Kyle can hear them and going so far as to mix in bits of the Jewish faith into their sex talk. In many ways, going beyond using her as a stand-in for Kyle, to crossing the boundaries and bringing Kyle into their sexual relationship. Even all of the lovey dovey scenes with the kids are basically in front of Kyle and or involving Kyle directly.

It’s a show. It’s classic performative Cartman.

Sure, maybe someone could say he just wants to show off how he has the life Kyle should have had, and it’s all just his usual power play, but if that’s the case, why get so sexual about it? If i’s just ordinary rivalry, why not talk more about his new faith, his success with the synagogue, or even about his moral growth (things Kyle would care about and actually be jealous about)? Because as we’ve seen over and over again, part of his obsession with Kyle is sexual. 

At the end of the episode, the idea of going back in time and changing things, going on adventures with his friends like old times, even the whole “someone needing to finger Kenny,” made Cartman feel that he was getting all too close to opening up that box that he’s been trying so hard to keep locked up and buried. If he were truly confident in his new life, wouldn’t he feel comfortable enough to go on the adventure and even explain his concerns to his friends? Wouldn’t he perhaps even believe that he would be led back to his family no matter what? Why run away? If he’s so scared of losing them, it would make more sense to stay and sabotage Stan and Kyle- something Cartman would know full well and be fully capable of doing. The problem is, he can’t because being with them brings back too much of who he really is underneath everything he tries to be. It reminds him of what he really wants, and how different and wrong he feels because of it. 

Not that I ever expect his story to canonically show this struggle, but the subtext has always been there, and I don’t think it is going to go away. Most likely, the group will find a way to go back in time and that is how they will be friends again and have learned a lesson from the pandemic.