#konglongmandarin

[rigelmejo]

ok i’m checking out konglongmandarin.com and its definitely worth checking out their articles on how to study, and some of their lessons if nothing else than to view the structure. There’s a lot of really good advice here in how to utilize any material to work on improving chinese.

A lot of this advice I could easily apply to the novels I read in Pleco - shadowing, trying to read aloud, replaying snippets, looking up words then re-reading or re-listening, trying to say example sentences with substitution (different verbs, nouns, etc to practice using a sentence structure), roleplaying. A lot of really practical advice and activities for working on speaking and listening skills. I could also apply a lot of these steps pretty easily to any drama of your choice on Viki that has ‘language learner mode’ on or when using “Learn Languages with Netflix’ extension. 

And if you just wanted to mainly focus on speaking/listening skills, and new most of the words, you could apply a lot of these activities to materials without needing any dictionary lookup (like what Pleco has, Viki has etc) - you could just use it for any chinese material you have. 

Konglong Mandarin how to guide: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/guides/

3 Effective methods to practice speaking chinese alone: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/methods-to-practice-speaking-chinese-alone/

Speech shadowing: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/speech-shadowing-chinese-peppa-pig/

Rhythm of spoken mandarin: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/rhythm-of-spoken-mandarin-chinese-how-to-sound-like-a-chinese-native-speaker/ (I’m still reading this article but just things i’ve seen from other sources - grouping hanzi by ‘word segments’ when you speak instead of by individual hanzi tends to be more understandable based on some sources... aka saying “ni zhidao zhege wenti ma,” versus “ni zhi dao zhe ge wen ti ma” or worse “nizhi daozhe gewen tima” ... i’m not sure yet if this article covers that but i’ve seen articles mention it before? i’m not sure if the actual kind of ‘flow of a chinese sentence’ is a bit more different, so i can’t say for that article’s advice how helpful it might have been... i still need to learn much more. also with japanese while it does have sort of a ‘monotonous’ sound like this article is using as comparison, usually grouping particles with the word they’re attached to - said sort of like the same word - makes sentences sound less disjointed... though that’s just something i personally did as a beginner in japanese to stop sounding quite so awful and broken up, so no idea if its also not really the right thing to do lol. Anyway to the Point - i think Konglongmandarin’s advice on these basics for chinese sentence flow are helpful).

Some notes on er usage: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/use-er-in-chinese-words-erhua-rules/

Third tone change notes: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/third-tone-change-in-spoken-mandarin-chinese/ (I could always use more explanation about this tbh)

[rigelmejo]

So while I’m not fond of Peppa Pig, I do find this discussion interesting. And it did make me go check if I could follow Peppa Pig (I can, easily, I know most of the words if not all - though I’m watching without subs so I might miss a little bit). 

*This is a show that WAS recommended to me, if you want to watch a simple show for kids that’s easy to comprehend - 大头儿子和小头爸爸 (and it is cute, it reminds me a little of Arthur and shows I watched when I was little)  : https://youtu.be/bpO2W9Xaigc

Ok back to Peppa Pig discussion, of all things lol.

So on reddit, someone was discussing how they’d been studying chinese 8 months and still could not understand Peppa Pig. I found the discussion between everyone very interesting. All I really think on my end is like? I also could not understand Peppa Pig (or any shows super well) that early on so it is partly a matter of “you just gotta study chinese for a while.” (The reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/mk4665/fed_up_with_my_poor_chinese/ )

But also? I am a big believer in “it gets easier the more you practice.” So if you want to do something in a language, try to DO it. And try to keep doing it - because partly yes, you will likely realize you need to learn more words/grammar and the ‘doing’ may just be a catalyst to ‘make you study more’ so that next time you try to DO you know more and its easier. But also, doing it involves building the skills of getting USED to listening, used to recognizing words you studied in a different context, getting used to recognizing and understanding grammar in real time instead of on a delay (like in a textbook when you can slow down and really look at something and figure it out) etc. So partly, how ‘easy’ it is to read or listen has to just do with how often you’ve done it. Have you done it enough that the parts you HAVE studied you can grasp immediately? Or have you done it so little that even things you ‘studied’ don’t click right away - but they might on a rewatch or if you pause and read a subtitle slower, replay a line, etc. The part of the skills you pick up by DOING you really have to just... do to get better.

I found a few responses from people who are years into studying chinese and still find Peppa Pig difficult. And I think in that case, it might be the same situation as my japanese was (studied for 2 years and could still barely read a manga for bare gist). I think partly at that point, lack of understanding has to do with not practicing understanding by Doing. Someone who’s studied a couple years, likely knows a few thousands words+? If they practiced listening or reading regularly for a few months, they’d likely see a TON of improvement. Because they probably ‘learned’ a lot already they just need to develop stronger skills to comprehend what they studied when engaging with shows/audios/novels etc. And if they just ‘wait’ to engage with material until it feels ‘easy’ they may be unnecessarily holding themselves back. Because a major part of ‘why’ it might feel difficult is simply that they don’t practice the skills of USING what they learned. If they practice more, it will get easier. But if they wait to immerse until ‘easy stuff FEELS easy’ when they first try? Then they aren’t challenging themselves nearly as much as they can probably handle...

Like? I’m not that good. I still only kinda comprehend a LOT of things. But that doesn’t stop me from watching chinese dramas I wanna watch in chinese only. And I think a big reason I can comprehend ENOUGH now to follow the plots of shows I wanna watch? Is because when i was 8 months, 10 months, 12 months into learning - i would watch 12 minutes and look up lots of unknown words, or watch an episode and pause to read hard sentences, or make myself watch when i ‘just’ got the gist of an ‘easier’ show and hope that the more i did it the more i’d understand. And somehow, that did work out. (Also it motivated me to keep studying new words in other activities lol, hoping that would make watching easier). Now I’m at a point where i can turn on new shows I want to watch, and watch them, and follow the main gist and pick up some details. Its nice. Its nice and its getting a bit easier each time i do it. And if i had ‘waited’ until ‘easy stuff’ like Peppa Pig was easy? Or until stuff like “Granting You A Dreamlike Life” was easy? I probably would not comprehend this much right now. I tried to watch gyadl like 8 months in and it was pretty rough... even rougher because i only paused a handful of times an episode to make things go faster. But now? When i watch a show ‘about that hard’ that’s mostly slice of life? I can pick up a ton more easily than before. Doing the ‘hard’ thing eventually made it easier. 

So if there’s anything I think about all it, its just... don’t be afraid to challenge yourself sometimes. Sometimes doing hard things makes the ‘easier’ things finally Actually easier. And sometimes waiting until you can ‘understand’ the easy things means just never trying the easy things - when its trying and doing, that will eventually MAKE them doable for you. At least that’s advice to myself ToT I wasted a ton of time in japanese when I didn’t do this, and helped myself a lot in chinese by doing this. I also did it with french even though i wasn’t really aware what i was doing back then.

Some links:

Peppa Pig in mandarin (let me know how much YOU can follow an episode! - if you can... sit through one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1dhSMSAXxI

Konglongmandarin - a site that teaches mandarin utilizing Peppa Pig episodes. Which, while I do not like that cartoon much, I really appreciate the concept behind this site and its lessons. And I think its a really cool way of making comprehensible input lessons (which I think are a quite easy and Direct way to teach things that click well with my learning style and probably some other peoples’). I am checking the site out currently: https://www.konglongmandarin.com/lessons/

AVATAR THE LAST AIRBENDER IN MANDARIN - its on WeTV! I didn’t know that! It’s all just free to watch so like?!! I guess I’m doing a rewatch! The downside is these have no subs. The upside is I guess it makes good listening practice since you can’t rely on reading skills. Also, if you’ve watched atla before like me, then you likely have enough context already you should be able to follow what’s going on and pick up some new words: https://v.qq.com/x/cover/m0t0ud0mjg6td5t/v00225ojbpd.html

Again 大头儿子和小头爸爸 - its a show that was recommended to me by a language partner, and its good if you want a show for kids to practice comprehensible input with (I find it a lot more nice to watch then peppa pig but that’s just my preference): https://youtu.be/bpO2W9Xaigc

Two Souls in One - a cdrama I’m watching right now, its really good! Its only in chinese subs rn but I imagine youku plans to english sub it since its on youtube. Its magical premise mixed with mundane reality, a lot of fun identity and gender shenanigans. At my comprehension level its reasonably easy to follow - since most of its slice of life or actor-genre lingo. I think for most people who know 1k-2k common words this should be very doable to watch (just like Granting You A Dreamlike Life was doable to watch and follow the gist of). https://youtu.be/zaX2pdVpmUY

[rigelmejo]

thank u @meichenxi for ur absolutely gorgeous amazing in depth shadowing answer when i asked.

u can ignore the rest of this post its just gonna be me ranting ToT.

i tried the most tiny form of shadowing and. i think i should try doing it more ;-;. I tried doing what you said - listening to the stress in the sentence, chunking how i say it back if i can’t say the whole sentence (like saying the last phrase, getting that right, then trying to say the last 2 phrases in the sentence, etc). And I realized how BAD i am at doing that beyond literally 1 word chunks or short 2 word chunks like 你知道. Obviously plenty of phrases which are just 4-6 hanzi, but i would mess up with even just those! I could read it, and I could read a sentence aloud one word at a time. But I could not shadow without a ton of errors when I tried repeating lol. 

I also took your advice (or maybe the konglongmandarin advice? or both?? i can’t remember who said to do this) of trying to shadow without looking at the text. While i looked at it the first time to read over the sentence, when i actually tried to shadow i just focused on what i HEARD and repeating it AS IT SOUNDS (not as the pinyin look, not looking at the words so i know the tone). just literally listening, then only using the audio to practice saying it out loud myself. and that takes WAY MORE ACTIVE LISTENING SKILLS then i apparently have lol! I could only do this again with 1-2 word chunks! Anything longer and my brain would forget what tones it heard, forget some of the words, and my mouth would forget to say ‘xie’ right even though i would have JUST saw the character and just heard it correctly and i CAN pronounce it... but on the spot, with no aid but ‘hear the sound, now replicate it’ i just kept messing it up! Lol!

I am sure trying to shadow more will improve my actual listening ability, because i had to focus so MUCH on listening in order to shadow. I had to focus even more then in a show or listening to an audiobook - because i had to do more than just recognize words, i had to say them myself and attempt to say them correctly. so... i will definitely be working up to bigger phrases and sentences, since literally this is so difficult lol ToT (the suggestion to phrase chunk and try first just one, then build up to a full sentence, if u can’t remember or do the whole thing, is helpful - also i think its what Pimsleur kind of does). 

I was listening so much harder because i was not looking at the text, and since i was focusing so much on replicating HOW it sounded i didn’t have time to think ‘ok what is this word, what is its pinyin, what is its tone, what tone changes do i do if it’s 3 3rd tone hanzi in a row’... whereas when im speaking to someone, or myself, i can think all of that first (tho it slows down my speech). but since shadowing the point is to replicate and learn from imitating correct pronunciations (instead of seeing pronunciations on paper), it required a lot more active listening. and i think its probably very good training for speaking skills, speaking ease, and again active listening. maybe also for ingraining tones in words and phrases... i know the tones with words, but i constantly CONSTANTLY have to think about it when i’m speaking like ‘did i say the right one? did i change it when i was supposed to? if i say this phrase what part do i change?’ and even if i know what i’m talking about and know the words i just slow down a lot. so maybe more shadowing will help make more of this a bit more instinctive?

anyway. super hard lol.

i tried with some sentences in Chinese Spoonfed Audio files i have, just because its simple learner material, and already has a built in pause to repeat. And i still fumbled brutally over my words lol! doing this from a show sounds even horrifically harder! So... catch me trying to do it eventually, sometime much sooner than i feel ready for it! 

I remember i used to do it just months into learning chinese, but it was just for simple stuff since those were easy words to pick up: 该死，你知道吗 没事吧， 你怎么了，你放心，别担心，明白了吗？，好名字，他死了，没问题，我没事，太好了，行了，行不行，是不是，还有，我喜欢你，什么东西，天的，漂亮 etc. After stuff got more complicated i basically stopped trying to repeat after shows, i felt i made so many tone mistakes etc constantly i decided it was too hard and i might be reinforcing bad habits if i don’t look at pinyin with tones marked ToT (when i say ‘do shadowing’ i do not mean recording myself or doing anything nearly as impressive and structured as you described lol ToT i mean literally just repeating the character whenever they said something i could say easily after - and those kinds of phrases above i heard enough to do that and were short enough to).

while i think yeah that stunted my speaking a lot? i also am not sure if the judgement call i made was kind of solid to be fair. i was very confused by tones until about a year in when i had a language exchange partner for a while - i had been pronouncing 3rd tone like the 2nd tone, had been rising my 3rd tone too often, and was told basically GO LOWER - LOWEERRRRRR. Until i finally grasped ‘ok 3rd tone is more like just the LOW’ tone. and if you pronounce it fully like in an elongated wo... wo bu zhidao, then yeah you will hear it dip then go up. And if its before another 3rd tone its a 2nd tone. but if you just hear it, you’re generally hearing ‘low’ without really much rise, and starting lower than the 4th tone drop (so the drop in 3rd tone isn’t as clear). And until someone TOLD ME 3rd tone was so low i just had no idea, i could NOT even hear it right. And that’s why i still have some fears about shadowing... if i do NOT know a language feature? I have a decent chance of literally being UNABLE to hear it. Unable to hear it correctly, unable to notice it. For me i literally could NOT tell how my 3rd tone sounded wrong. I had to be told to notice ‘THIS IS HOW LOW IT GOES’ and ‘GO LOWER’ constantly until i got it. With 1st tone, i kept accidentally doing 2nd tone because i could NOT hear that i was raising my voice at the end. It took someone repeatedly telling me its not so much ‘high’ as it is ‘completely level’. 1st tone u do not raise or lower ur pitch! i did not even hear myself doing it until i got called out and constantly tried to consciously notice if i was keeping it the same exact level or not. 

And now i get the same issues with ‘c’ and ‘sh’ and ‘b’ and ‘q’ noise in chinese... i use the app 普通话学习 to practice pronunciation (it grades you). And no matter what i can RARELY hear how i do ‘c’ and ‘sh’ and ‘b’ wrong. I have listened to examples, i’ve repeated them, i’ve read different books way of describing the sounds. In the app i try to repeat the hanzi that start with those over and over, and whether i get ‘perfect’ or ‘wtf did you say’ is literally luck. i cannot tell at all how i am mistakenly pronouncing them, when i say them wrong. i can’t hear my mistake at all, i can’t hear any difference between my pronunciation and the examples. (Same with ‘eng’ and ‘en’ endings... but i think i might.. maybe hear a difference in my pronunciation to theirs... still though i have no idea). 

So a big reason i didn’t shadow much, ESPECIALLY trying to shadow without pinyin to look at and DOUBLE check i know the correct tone etc, is because i worry i will keep reinforcing bad pronunciation i can’t even HEAR in my own voice. I will go ‘ok yes finally! i imitated the audio right!’ and then not realize i fucked up 4 things i just cannot hear properly. I just cannot tell i’m even doing wrong. I worry about that significantly less now, since i generally always get my tones right if i know them... so i’m guessing i have a solid enough sense of how they’re supposed to ‘correctly’ sound now that if i hear them in audio without text, i will have enough in my brain to instinctively recognize its a part of the sound that exists and replicate it as i’m hearing it. (though i am still constantly afraid i’ll hear a tone wrong, replicate wrong, and not even fucking notice i’m making a mistake). Now most of the fear is just with those couple initials and finals i just... fuck up half the time and CANNOT hear why they’re wrong. i can’t hear the difference at all. but i’ve been consistently messing them up for like 4 months now so... if i haven’t improved them in this long, i might as well still do some practice like with shadowing. i’ve been using that pronunciation app, and even with all of it doing its best to tell me ‘it sounds WRONG’ i can’t tell. so i could call using that app ‘reinforcing bad habits’ at that point just as much as shadowing, maybe. i get the sounds right half the time, wrong all the time, cannot hear the difference. so i don’t think shadowing is gonna hurt me much more than i’m already hurting myself here... since its pretty clear unless i get someone to explain, i’m unable to fix these bits. 

anyway that is the tldr for why i didn’t shadow much at all. and maybe... maybe my tones are decent enough now... i might try a bit more. although when i tried yesterday, i was literally so afraid i fucked up the tones that i went to look up the sentences to double check i hadn’t. and i still could not ‘name’ the tones i was saying as i repeated them in shadowing. i was too busy speaking, i had no idea IF i was doing tones or WHICH ones i was just focusing EVERYTHING on trying to remember the sounds i heard and repeat. not the meaning, not the words specifically, not the tones lol. yes i am a mess lol ToT