#klytaimestra

[adhd-mess]

The chorus: “why grieve in advance?

Whatever turns up I hope it’s happy—“

*Klytaimestra enters the chat*

[fred-erick-frankenstein]

Klytaimestra did nothing wrong.

[trvgcdiv]

#SpartanGIrlGang & fertility: summary

TW for discussions of pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, and early infancy death (and implied rape)

All of the #SpartanGirlGang have fertility issues, well. Maybe I shouldn't put Klytaimestra here, but they all struggled to get their beloved male heirs at least lmao

Starting with Pen because I never start with her, but. Hers is the most obvious, with no successful births until nearly a decade of marriage. Despite this, for all appearances it looks like Odysseus remained faithful to Penelope the whole time.

Klytaimestra is particularly fruitful, with her three daughters, but it still took nearly a decade for Orestes' birth. It's my firm belief that Klytie took it upon herself to "take care of" any bedmate of her husband—no matter how unwilling—and any production of such a union thereof. Knowing both their personalities, there were many such women who had no choice in either respect.

Helen was in an in-between sitch. She gave birth to Hermione fairly quckly—clearly got pregnant right after marriage—but otherwise... nothing. Maybe a pregnancy or two, only one of which came to term and didn't survive a year. Menelaos, too, had a reaction between both extremes. Neither a monogamist (few Achaeans of his time and society were) nor adulterous by nature, he did fall to the pressure of producing a male heir with another which... well, it certainly didn't help the already existing friction in their marriage (due to said fertility issues)

[abissusandiuno]

KLYTAIMESTRA

Now you're making sense—

to call upon the thricegorged evil demon of this family.

Deep in its nerves is a lust to lick blood and no wound heals

before the next starts oozing.

- Agamemnon, Aiskhylos - translated by Anne Carson

[eternal--returned]

KLYTAIMESTRA: Apollo Apollo god of the ways god of my ruin oh yes you destroy me oh yes it is absolute this time

Aeschylus (translated by Anne Carson) ֍ Agamemnon, An Orestia (2009)

[konigsberg]

would you consider (if you havent already) making a rec list for books/authors/poets/etc? your breadth of classics knowledge and the source material you draw inspiration from always intrigues me.

I'd be happy to, but I think I might (accidentally) give the impression of being more familiar with a lot of these things than I actually am haha.

I'll focus on classics or classics-related recs, but there are some things I'll throw in here because, even though they aren't classics (or classics in the sense I think you probably mean, as in directly related to ancient Greece etc.), they've influenced what I’ve written in some way. I should also be clear, I haven’t read all of these things, sometimes only pieces, or they’re things I’ve been meaning to read and keep putting off but people might be interested in. And I’m definitely not an expert. I’m not properly educated on these topics, so I’m not sure if anything I include might be considered a bad resource by someone with a background in this field.

Also, as I was putting together this list… I was gawking at the prices of so many of these. Like 90% I grabbed at my local secondhand bookstore and I would encourage anyone interested to try to get these used (Thriftbooks is an online store to look at if you don’t have a good local store, though I’m not sure where all it ships to) or from a site like Project Gutenberg etc. Libraries are always good too, of course (some might be on Archive.org, which is a place where you can check out books online). I may be able to help you find ways to get your hands on some of these sources if you’re struggling to find it.

Fiction

Aethiopica by Heliodorus (tr. Moses Hadas) - An ancient Greek novel. “The Aethiopica tells the story of an Ethiopian princess and a Thessalian prince who undergo a series of perils (battles, voyages, piracy, abductions, robbery, and torture) before their eventual happy marriage in the heroine’s homeland.” Summary from here.

An Oresteia (tr. Anne Carson) - Carson’s translations of Aiskhylos' Agamemnon, Sophokles' Elektra, and Euripides' Orestes. Literally anything Carson touches is gold, please just read everything translated or written by her here, even if you’ve read other translations. “After the murder of her daughter Iphigeneia by her husband, Agamemnon, Klytaimestra exacts a mother's revenge, murdering Agamemnon and his mistress, Kassandra. Displeased with Klytaimestra's actions, Apollo calls on her son, Orestes, to avenge his father's death with the help of his sister Elektra. In the end, Orestes is driven mad by the Furies for his bloody betrayal of family. Condemned to death by the people of Argos, he and Elektra must justify their actions ― or flout society, justice and the gods.”

Arete: Greek Sports from Ancient Sources by Stephen G. Miller - All about the concept of arete. Exactly what it says on the tin.

The Constraints of Desire: The Anthropology of Sex and Gender in Ancient Greece by John J. Winkler - Another that’s exactly what it says on the tin. “For centuries, classical scholars have intensely debated the "position of women" in classical Athens. Did women have a vast but informal power, or were they little better than slaves? Using methods developed from feminist anthropology, Winkler steps back from this narrowly framed question and puts it in the larger context of how sex and gender in ancient Greece were culturally constructed. His innovative approach uncovers the very real possibilities for female autonomy that existed in Greek society.” (My friend has another book from this collection (?) called The New Ancient World, which I want to get if I ever actually… finish reading this one. But that one is called One Hundred Years of Sexuality, I think, and there’s another called Games of Venus, which also looks very interesting so I want to mention them.)

The Golden Ass (Metamorphoses) by Apuleius (tr. E.J. Kenney) - This is another that feels like it might go without saying, but whatever. This is where the story of Cupid & Psyche is told. If I understand correctly, this is the oldest (surviving, and possibly only?) extended account of Eros & Psyche’s myth, though art of the two appears much earlier so I assume Apuleius was drawing from older sources. “Written towards the end of the second century AD, The Golden Ass tells the story of the many adventures of a young man whose fascination with witchcraft leads him to be transformed into a donkey. The bewitched Lucius passes from owner to owner - encountering a desperate gang of robbers and being forced to perform lewd 'human' tricks on stage - until the Goddess Isis finally breaks the spell and initiates Lucius into her cult.” Actually, this is the physical copy I have and I got it just because I really wanted a physical copy, but I haven’t read it. I read a version for free online years ago when my obsession with Cupid & Psyche first took shape and I… have no clue who translated that one. But, well, here we are. You can definitely find this on Project Gutenberg, probably by a different translator, though.

Greek Fictional Letters (edited by C.D.N. Costa) - “This book explores a relatively unfamiliar and under-appreciated area of Greek literature: imaginary letters written between about 100 BC and 500 AD. Many of them are light-hearted and funny, and describe the lives of ordinary people--fisherman, farmers, courtesans. Others look at more serious and philosophical aspects of life. All the letters are translated, and the notes offer help to both expert and less informed readers.”

Grief Lessons: Four Plays by Euripides (tr. Anne Carson) - Carson’s translations of the plays Herakles, Hekabe, Hippolytos, and Alkestis. “Herakles, in which the hero swaggers home to destroy his own family; Hekabe, set after the Trojan War, in which Hektor’s widow takes vengeance on her Greek captors; Hippolytos, about love and the horror of love; and the strange tragic-comedy fable Alkestis, which tells of a husband who arranges for his wife to die in his place.”

The Iliad by Homer (tr. Robert Fagles) - Do I need to include this? I’m including this, if only to say this is the translation I have.

Medea by Euripides - This is, of course, the play depicting what happens when Jason attempts to remarry, betraying Medea. I can’t find my copy right now to specify which translation, but I didn’t particularly enjoy it anyway (the translation, not the play to be clear). Here’s a copy on Gutenberg.

The Odyssey by Homer (tr. Emily Wilson) - Again, just noting this is the translation I have more than anything.

The Voyage of Argo: The Argonautica by Apollonius of Rhodes (tr. E.V. Rieu) - Covers Jason’s quest. You can find various translations for free on Project Gutenberg.

Nonfiction

The Black Andromeda by Elizabeth McGrath - This is a paper about Princess Andromeda’s race and how it has been depicted throughout art and literature. It’s relevant to the Aethiopica and how it handles or fails to handle race.

Burial customs, the afterlife and the pollution of death in ancient Greece by Francois Pieter and Louise Cilliers - A research paper covering exactly what it says it does. I haven’t read much of this even though I really should and the parts I have read are so, so interesting.

The Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece by Carlos Gómez - General history.

Eros the Bittersweet: An Essay by Anne Carson - All about love as the ancient Greeks conceptualized it. I beg you all to read this. This is the one I’ve posted a bunch of my notes on to twitter. “A book about romantic love, Eros the Bittersweet is Anne Carson's exploration of the concept of "eros" in both classical philosophy and literature. Beginning with, "It was Sappho who first called eros 'bittersweet.' No one who has been in love disputes her," Carson examines her subject from numerous points of view, creating a lyrical meditation in the tradition of William Carlos Williams's Spring and All and William H. Gass's On Being Blue.”

The Gardens of Adonis: Spices in Greek Mythology by Marcel Detienne (tr. Janet Lloyd) - I haven’t read much of this, but I know I need to. “Rich with implications for the history of sexuality, gender issues, and patterns of Hellenic literary imagining, Marcel Detienne's landmark book recasts long-standing ideas about the fertility myth of Adonis.”

Granddaughter of the Sun: A Study of Euripides' Medea by C.A.E. Luschnig - I’ve also been posting screenshots from this as I read it because it makes me super unhinged. All about Her… “By looking at aspects of Medea that are largely overlooked in the criticism, this book aims at an open and multiple reading. It shows that stories presented in the drama of 5th century Athens are not unrelated to human beings who actually exist.”

Magika Hiera: Ancient Greek Magic and Religion - “This collection challenges the tendency among scholars of ancient Greece to see magical and religious ritual as mutually exclusive and to ignore ‘magical’ practices in Greek religion.”

Portraits of Grief: Death, Mourning and the Expression of Sorrow on White-Ground Lêkythoi by Molly Evangeline Allen - Someone’s research on funerary vases. I haven’t read much of it, but I came across it while trying to find other info and it looked interesting.

Poetry

Ovid: The Erotic Poems (tr. Peter Green) - Ovid is a Roman poet, but I think his work might be of interest. “This collection of Ovid's poems deals with the whole spectrum of sexual desire, ranging from deeply emotional declarations of eternal devotion to flippant arguments for promiscuity.”

Ovid’s Poetry of Exile (tr. David R. Slavitt) - More of Ovid’s work.

Sappho: A New Translation of the Complete Works (tr. Diane J. Rayor) - Please… Please… any translations of Sappho you can get… read them…

Miscellaneous

Desire, Discord and Death: Approaches to Near Eastern Myth by Neal H. Walls - Obviously not Greek, but I feel like anyone interested in ancient mythology about queerness, love, death, and sex would find this really interesting. “The three essays presented in this volume reveal the symbolic complexity and poetic visions of ancient Near Eastern mythology. The author explores the interrelated themes of erotic desire, divine conflict, and death's realm in selected ancient Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythological narratives using contemporary methods of literary analysis. Topics include the construction of desire in the Gilgamesh epic, a psychoanalytic approach to 'The Contendings of Horus and Seth', and gender and the exercise of power in the stormy romance of Nergal and Ereshkigal.”

Erotism: Death and Sensuality by Georges Bataille (tr. Mary Dalwood) - I haven’t read much of this and I know based on Bataille’s fiction (my man was really on some shit)… this is sure to be really unhinged. But it’s all about life, death, religion, and sex. “Bataille challenges any single discourse on the erotic. The scope of his inquiry ranges from Emily Bronte to Sade,from St. Therese to Claude Levi-Strauss and Dr. Kinsey.  The subjects he covers include prostitution, mythical ecstasy, cruelty, and organized war. Investigating desire prior to and extending beyond the realm of sexuality, he argues that eroticism is ‘a psychological quest not alien to death.’” I feel like… there probably needs to be trigger warnings for this one, but who knows what lol. This is actually the main book I’ve been using to help me learn French too, which is… a choice on my part for real, but that’s getting really off topic.

[dapurinthos]

don't you love the colour of klytaimestra's tomb?

[butchkaramazov]

2023 JSTOR Wrapped: top ten JSTOR articles of 2023

(via @finelythreadedsky)

Greenwood, L.H.G. “The Shape of Greek Tragedy.” Greece & Rome, Vol. 6, No. 16 (Oct., 1936), pp. 31-40.

Donald, Mills H. “ODYSSEUS AND POLYPHEMUS: TWO HOMERIC SIMILES RECONSIDERED.” The Classical Outlook, Vol. 58, No. 4 (MAY-JUNE 1981), pp. 97-99.

Ebbott, Mary. “Tell Me How It Hurts: An Intersection of Poetry and Pain in the “lliad”.” New England Review, Vol. 37, No. 2 (2016), pp. 31-46.

Kitts, Margo. “SACRIFICIAL VIOLENCE IN THE ILIAD.” Journal of Ritual Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1 (2002), pp. 19-39.

Kitts, Margo. “KILLING, HEALING, AND THE HIDDEN MOTIF OF OATH-SACRIFICE IN ILIAD 21.” Journal of Ritual Studies, Vol. 13, No. 2 (1999), pp. 42-57.

Blondell, Ruby. ““Bitch That I Am:” Self-Blame and Self-Assertion in the Iliad.” Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-2014), Vol. 140, No. 1 (Spring 2010), pp. 1-32.

Hame, Kerri J. “Female Control of Funeral Rites in Greek Tragedy: Klytaimestra, Medea, and Antigone.” Classical Philology, Vol. 103, No. 1 (January 2008), pp. 1-15.

Norcia, Megan A. “The Imperial Food Chain: Eating as an Interface of Power in Women Writers' Geography Primers.” Victorian Literature and Culture, Vol. 33, No. 1 (2005), pp. 253-268.

King, C. Richard. “The (Mis)uses of Cannibalism in Contemporary Cultural Critique.” Diacritics, Vol. 30, No. 1 (Spring, 2000), pp. 106-123.

Tucker, Aviezer. “Sins of our Fathers: A Short History of Religious Child Sacrifice.” Zeitschrift für Religions- und Geistesgeschichte, Vol. 51, No. 1 (1999), pp. 30-47.

[littlesparklight]

She was weaving a great cloth; a crimson cloak of double thickness, and was working in the many trials of the Trojan horse-breakers and bronze-clad Achaeans, trials which for her sake they suffered under the hand of Ares.

(Under the cut are some detail shots, especially of the cloth (with accompanying notes for what the little scenes depict!) so please check them out!)

From top left; boats on the edge ; family picture! swan!Zeus, Kastor, Leda with newborn Klytaimestra and hatching!egg!Helen, Polydeukes ; the judgement ; partial view of Peleus wrestling Thetis ; Menelaos come home from Crete ; Helen and Paris leaving Sparta.

From top left; boats on the edge again ; Ajax and Teucer ; fight over a dead body (not meant to be anyone in particular) ; Penthesilea ; Iphigenia sacrificed at Aulis (using the deer substitute) ; Eos and her dead son Memnon ; the daughters of Anius, fleeing the Achaeans, turned into doves ; Andromache and Hecuba grieving on the wall ; Achilles dragging Hektor's corpse, Apollo protecting it ; the whole bottom left deals with Achilles and Troilus ; Philoctetes and the snake ; altar ; the mother bird and her chicks with the snake from the omen at the first muster of Aulis.

From top left; Trojan soldier ; boats in the margin ; Ajax, the corpse of Achilles, Odysseus ; Apollo kicking down the Achaean wall for the Trojans.

[measureformeasure]

i woudl like to know because i am curious.

[berattelse]

It's as if the whole family were there, knee-deep in blood, and Elektra is killing her mother with her father's words. Why would Sophokles do this? To emphasize Elektra's awful command of language as a weapon? To remind us of Klytaimestra's crime and close the cycle of vengeance in this house? To reopen Agamemnon's wounds and suggest that vengeance here will never end? To trump Aiskhylos? To pay homage to Aiskhylos? Perhaps all these at once. Sophokles is a complex poet working in a complex tradition. His audience enjoys all kinds of play with masks. All kinds of uses of urns. They do not come to the theater for comfort.

Carson, Anne. Introduction to "Elektra" by Sophokles. An Oresteia: Agamemnon by Aiskhylos, Elektra by Sophokles, Orestes by Euripides, trans. by Anne Carson. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2009.

[dearest-lady-disdain]

they killed cassandra first. ok, who? klytaimestra and aighitos? nope, they actually slaughtered agamemnon beforehand

[trvgcdiv]

I'm so busy at work but I'll just say a silly little hc

Klytaimestra would be super into strategy games if she didn't turn her nose up at them as nerd shit (I'm leaning towards her possibly thinking they're beneath her, but it might change depending on certain things)

I feel like she'd also be super into Warhammer 40K if she'd be willing to give it a shot too

[baladric]

listen, like, the tenor of this translation of orestes is just VERY comical in a deeply mordant, muir way, like

As for our father, well, Klytaimestra disposed of him. Trapped him in a rug and slit his throat. Motive? I'm an innocent girl. Let's leave her motives blank. But it seemed to Orestes and me there ought to be a law against a mother like that. Turns out there is: Apollo. Apollo had us kill her. Orestes did it. I helped. Kudos were not universal.

"kudos were not universal" the WILD blitheness of this, esp when you're rocking right in from the extremely different, much rawer-voiced elektra just before it

(I am the shape you made me. Filth teaches filth.)

like man idk, it just shocked a cackle out of me. also i can't decide if ianthe would hate or love to be likened to elektra, like on the one hand "why would you do anything you could get somebody else to do for you" but on the other, "oh please, get up off the damn floor and do the matricide yourself, you deserve a treat and your brother is a fucking drip"

reading carson's oresteia and god help me but i cant stop reading elektra's orestes opening in ianthe tridentarius's voice

[eternal--returned]

KLYTAIMESTRA: I pray no sudden shift to evil. Such are my woman words. May the good prevail. Unambiguously. I'm ready for blessings, many blessings.

Aeschylus (translated by Anne Carson) ֍ Agamemnon, An Orestia (2009)

[devilsskettle]

i’m not saying anything about how justified the events of the oresteia are, i’m just saying that i might get a little axe-happy too if my husband regularly talked about me like that (& also regularly kidnaps young women as prizes of war??? that’s pretty fucked up dude)