#just to clarify here as well - this is not a ship post - incest is disgusting

[murpurpop]

Ohhh boy this took a while!!! I’ve had this in the wip folder for over a month now and it’s one of my biggest pieces!! I have no idea what this is or what it’s supposed to be about (other than haha Jonathan Joestar sillies haha). I just had the idea in my head and thought it looked cool. The line art was probably the most difficult part of this whole process it definitely took the longest to finish.

I wasn’t the biggest fan of the outfits Jonathan and Dio wore in Windknight’s Lot so I changed them - keeping on brand with official art of Jonathan and making his clothes torn and falling off him all the time!

That’s all I have to say. Hope you like it!!!

[rise-my-angel]

The person you reblogged that Direwolves post from is a Dany/Arya stan (loves Jonerys and Rhaelya and Jonrya as well because of course) who hates Sansa so they and their lot love to bring up the Direwolves being important to emphasize that Sansa is no longer a Stark, is not magical, has no claim to Winterfell, and/or will be beheaded just like Lady was lmfaooo. Just so you know lol.

You know I was laughing at the irony of how hilariously opposite my stances were compared to that person until you said they ship Jonrya.

Then I had to go vomit for a moment before composing my thoughts. Out of all the incest fetish ships these people force onto Jon Snow, shipping him with Arya is the most blatantly creepy and disturbing of them all.

But, of COURSE the Sansa stan critical post I reblogged was made by a targ stan. Every single time. Every Sansa critical post is a Jonerys stan. Every Dany critical post is a Jonsa. And sometimes the fucking Rhaelyas and Jonryas slip through the cracks too.

But I will clarify something here just so people don't get the wrong idea. I have my criticisms of Sansa, but not in any way the same level I have massive criticisms for Dany. Sansa is classist and a bully to her sister, but she isn't a mass murdering tyrant. They do not deserve the same level of criticisms.

I also think the direwolves are incredibly important which means I think Sansa being the only living character to have lost her direwolf is equally as important. Sansas story with Littlefinger is taking her down a dark path and not having her soul bonded direwolf with her makes it that much easier to lose her identity.

That being said, I think a big part of Sansa and Aryas stories are bound to intersect. Arya returning home to remind herself she is still a Stark, as Sansa finds her way home having to be reminded that despite everything she is and always will be a Stark and I think both sisters have an important role to play in reigniting their identities in each other, in a manner that helps them heal and forgive their very unpleasant past previously as sisters.

Also I swear every Dany stan is also an Arya stan specifically just to tinfoil hat their way into explaining why Sansa is the worst.

I am asking Jonerys stans and Jonsas to stop dragging poor Arya into their disgusting incest fetish for Jon Snow.

(Rhaelyas and Jonrya shippers get attacked with a tourney sword on sight like I'm Lyanna Stark and they are the fuck heads attacking Howland Reed. Those shipppers, get your gross child shipping away from those 2 girls)

[innovativestruggles]

daisuke and suzue are relatives!! why would you ship relatives?!? the anime and novel are different

Tbvh with you anon, I don’t know whether you are being rude about this, but obviously I didn’t make myself clear enough from my previous post when another person asked why I ship Daisuke and Suzue.

Let me reiterate this very, very clearly for you (and for anyone else who sits around the same question). I ship Daisuke and Suzue from the novel. And they are NOT related in the novel. Please read this previous ask where I explained why I ship them.

And yes, I am very much aware that the novel and anime are different thank you very much. 

I am also very much aware that the anime is only loosely based on the novel.

In saying that, it is very difficult for me as a novel reader to not be frustrated at the changes made by the anime creators. I will use Harry Potter as the best metaphorical example as a lot of people are familiar with it.

Imagine you reading all 7 Harry Potter books first. It is the ultimate canon. It is the original. You become invested in the characters and their relationships. Let’s pick Ron and Hermione. The books build on their relationship from the very beginning, all the way through to the very end where they end up together. Now imagine you start watching the Harry Potter movies, and then the movie creator suddenly makes Ron and Hermione relatives.

Whether you ship Ron and Hermione isn’t the issue here. The issue is that you become invested in the characters’ relationship, and how they progress and end up together, only for it to be screwed over by the movie adaptation. It is very jarring and it doesn’t make sense. 

There are other things movie/tv show adaptations can change from a novel, but changing a character’s relationship is a big no no. You may also be wondering “oh but they changed the relationship between Daisuke’s father and Daisuke from novel to anime. Daisuke’s father is not the antagonist in the novel so you don’t make any sense etc etc” - well yes and no. The anime changed Daisuke’s relationship with his father by also changing the father’s name. So in essence he is a new character. Does that make sense? Whereas Suzue has kept her name (not surname), her looks, her role, her personality etc etc so in essence there are elements that she is the same person from the novel. So it would have been better for us novel readers that the anime creators made a new character completely and not keep Suzue and then turn her into a relative. 

So you can see how it is very difficult for some of us novel readers who were already invested in Daisuke and Suzue’s relationship to not feel frustrated at the potential change in Suzue’s relationship status. The lines between novel and anime become quite blurred for us novel readers when it comes to Daisuke and Suzue’s relationship. 

We know anime and novel are separate but I just wanted to explain to you why I am still shipping Daisuke and Suzue - mostly from the novel (and how it may spillover into me shipping them in the anime).

Regardless, we still don’t know what type of relative Suzue is to Daisuke in the anime. It was never clarified. She could be a cousin, distant cousin, entered into the Kambe by marriage or adopted into the family. We still don’t know. There are theories floating around that Daisuke may have lied about Suzue being his relative. It is all up in the air at the moment. Regardless of the similarities in their appearance, it could be anything at this stage. I mean, Daisuke’s parents look similar to each other as well...so who knows..maybe that’s how they designed the characters. 

I’m willing to give the anime the benefit of the doubt at the moment and not make any conclusions about their relationship until I get a full proper confirmation. If they do turn out to be truly related and they are like first cousins or something, then I’ll stop shipping them in the anime. If they are distant distant distant cousins that it is negligible that they are even related anymore than yes I’ll ship them.

Whatever the outcome of the anime relationship, I will always ship them in the novel. 

I hope this clarify things for you. Please don’t jump to conclusions that I ship relatives. The whole incest thing is disgusting and I don’t just go out there and ship whoever (this goes for toxic fans who ship two guys who breathe the same air. Same shit different context).

I speak for other novel readers who feel the same as well as other DaiSuzu shippers as well. Please don’t just think we love shipping relatives. Don’t make assumptions. If you are unsure, just ask.

Thanks and please be respectful. Peace 🤞

[thespacebetweenworlds]

idk if you’ll care about this but your thing about the whole “fiction is just fiction” and “fiction doesn’t affect reality” argument is actually not true at all because let’s just say for example: having lgbt, poc, disability rep in books or media isn’t all that important because it doesn’t affect reality.... when it does? it makes a HUGE impact on people. but yes I see where you’re coming from and as a person who hates incest with a passion, I don’t think u guys deserve these threats AT ALL.

Thank you for not thinking I should die a violent death. And thank you for this ask! I love being asked things. And to respond to your point, that fiction does affect reality, with the example of how representation is pretty awesome: that’s a freaking good point you have there, that I agree with - partially.

This Essay is titled: Fiction and Reality and How the everloving Fuck do they interact and what by nathan wesninski’s underpants does that have to do with fandom discourse?

So, beyond the read more you’ll have a compilation of my thoughts on it (that didn’t take several hours to write and edit). I’ll talk about:

1. Definition Of Fiction, Definition Of Reality

2. (How) Does Fiction Affect Reality?

3. Representation In Fiction

4. Who Judges Fanfic?

5. ”this content is problematic,” says you. ”please don’t mention power dynamics,” replies I

6. Censorship

7. A Brief History Of Why Fanfic Is Awesome

8. Links to stuff that might interest you

I’m just gonna. Quickly do that part in radioactive with the deep breath.

To start this, I want to clarify that in the response I made to transneiljosten’s post, I never explicitly said “fiction doesn’t affect reality” or “fiction is just fiction.”

What I did say is this: “Incest in fiction is just that: incest in fiction. It’s. not. real.” And: “I believe everyone should be allowed to write/create what they want - as long as it doesn’t hurt people in real life.”

But yes, the phrases “fiction is just fiction” and “fiction is not reality” have been used often when discussing freedom to write fanfic and when defending content another might call immoral. Not many people have elaborated beyond that, and to be fair - it’s a super big fucking field of study with so many subjective ways to look at it that it’s difficult to put into words.

But I’m gonna go and explain what people mean with those two phrases anyway.

Disclaimer: Remember how I called this a super big fucking field of study? I am no linguist and I have not studied literature. All my knowledge comes from years in fandom and internet research of the topics I personally found interesting. I may be wrong about things I say here, and I am always learning, so feel free to message me. I try my best to discuss controversial topics thoughtfully, respectfully, considerately and carefully, but I am only human and do not know everything. You are welcome to join the discussion.

1. Definition Of Fiction, Definition Of Reality

Going to https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/ to properly look this up:

Reality: The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Fiction: Literature in the form of prose, especially novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

So I say I don’t study literature (I really don’t) but just a few weeks ago I was in a lecture on the absolute basics of literature science, where I learned this dope sentence:

Die Wirklichkeit in der Kunst ist nur eine auf die außerkünstlerische Wirklichkeit verweisende Wirklichkeit.

Which is German, yes I know. Basically we have the starting point that literature is art, so it’s: "the reality in art is only a reality that refers to the reality outside of art" or, in other words, fiction is only ever fiction and not reality, no matter how close they may seem to be.

In summary, what we can say for sure: Fiction does not equal Reality. They are not the same. Fiction exists because Reality exists.

2. (How) Does Fiction Affect Reality?

Reality affects fiction. But does Fiction affect Reality?

Allow me to quote tumblr user shinelikethunder, who put it very nicely:

“Fiction affects people. And people affect reality.”

Tumblr user muchymozzarella made an important addition (and the blog is really pretty) so to read the post, klick on this link: https://muchymozzarella.tumblr.com/post/167137950299/fiction-is-not-responsible-for-reality

If you read the above post, further reading that might interest you are texts by Immanuel Kant and Arthur Schopenhauer on Free Will. But that wouldn’t be fandom anymore, so like, find philosophy books in your local library and talk to you friends about it.

3. Representation In Fiction

But let’s come back to your question, dear anon: “... the whole “fiction is just fiction” and “fiction doesn’t affect reality” argument is actually not true at all because let’s just say for example: having lgbt, poc, disability rep in books or media isn’t all that important because it doesn’t affect reality.... when it does? it makes a HUGE impact on people.”

You have a great point. Representation in books matters. (If you rec me some nice wlw books I’ll love you forever, there are not enough.)

I am, however, gonna quote my friend of mine, who says it better than I ever could:

“There is a difference between media affecting behaviour and representation in media. Like, violent video games don't actually make you violent. Watching gay cinema isn't going to turn you to the lgbt side unless there was already a disposition there.

People read and write immorality constantly, and even when it's shone in a good light it's usually expected that we as human beings know right from wrong, know fiction from reality. Humanity has explored the happy shiny purity of the universe and the horrific grittiness since... Well probably forever, for a variety of reasons. And in recent years the way we consume media has intensified drastically. Our consumption is interactive, our interaction is globally influenced and sometimes that is good, but we've also given ourselves the right to witch-hunt without a lot of information, or because things don't go as you planned. Real people are always more important than fictional people.

Stand up for representation. Stand up for good representation. But if you're smart enough to understand morality in reality, that isn't going to suddenly go away if you read some incest fics... And hey if you do suddenly want to kiss your brother, that's something for you to deal with and it isn't fan fiction's fault.”

Representation in books matters. Why does it matter? Because the real world is so much more diverse than popular media might make you think. Fight against the patriarchy, not against random people on the internet.

4. Who Judges Fanfic?

Fanfic is written by fans. It’s also written for fans, but more than that, it’s written by fans. I’m not gonna say only teenage girls write fanfiction, because that’s not true. Fans write fanfiction. And everyone can be a fan.

Ozhawkauthor said:

“You are not paying for fanworks content, and you have no rights to it other than to choose to consume it, or not consume it. If you do choose to consume it, do not then attack the creator if it wasn’t to your taste. That’s the height of bad manners.

Be courteous in fandom. It makes the whole experience better for all of us.”

So why are “antis” suddenly here, declaring this ship and those characters off limits and to be hated on?

Specifically, what the fuck are fans that attack or judge other fans on?

To quote shinelikethunder (again): “Fiction needn’t be educational and fiction doesn’t always have clear-cut endorsements of who’s in the right. But the discussion that happens around fiction can include both.”

But to answer the question above: Who Judges Fanfic? Not. You.

5. ”this content is problematic,” says you. ”please don’t mention power dynamics,” replies I

Hypothetical situation:

I write a fanfic. My protagonist is Riko Moriyama, who is, in canon, a sadistic asshole that is so morally black that his own brother, Ichirou, who is also morally black, kills him in the end. It doesn’t matter what I write, or who I ship him with, in this hypothetical situation.

You appear, you read the fic or you don’t read the fic. You say: “This content is problematic.”

I quiver. I know you don’t like Riko Moriyama. I know you don’t approve of my shipping choice. “Please don’t mention power dynamics,” I reply.

“This relationship is toxic,” you say. “There are unhealthy power dynamics at play.”

And like, fuck, I know? I wrote it.

Obviously. Obviously I could reply with that ancient, age old phrase “Don’t Like Don’t Read.”

But I already made a similar post about that.

6. Censorship

I’m writing this post to fight against censorship in fandom. (The day I am typing this up on was the day I went to a demonstration against articles 11 and 17, earlier 13, in the copyright reform in the EU, and to protest for a free internet.)

Censorship.

What does that even mean? The Oxford English Dictionary says:

Censorship: The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

Here’s the wikipedia article.

In my opinion, every person, regardless of whether or not they call themselves “anti” who tells someone else that their fanfic is disgusting and wrong and should be deleted, based on subjective ideas of moral, is trying to enforce censorship. So don’t. Don’t do that.

“But,” you might say. “Riko is not a good person.”

And you know what? You’re absolutely right. He’s not. Neither is any of the Foxes.

And this is why none of the antis make sense. In one post, they condemn Roland - a perfectly normal minor character, and in the next post they call Andrew Minyard their soft angel child. Y’all. Not to hate on Andrew Minyard, but he literally drugged Neil? Even though he’s so big on consent, he drugged Neil?

So by saying this and that are problematic and should not be written and the people who do write it should be blocked, you’re kinda hypocritical. Because the All For The Game trilogy is one fucked up piece of media by itself.

And have you ever read a book?

Most books have characters that aren’t completely morally white or morally black, events that aren’t always sunshine, butterflies and rainbows.

And you know what else? That’s a good thing. Because the world isn’t like that either. And more often than not literature addresses topics critically.

Remember The Hunger Games? Exactly.

7. A Brief History Of Why Fanfic Is Awesome

In the beginnings of fanfic and fandom as we know it, slash was illegal in the USA. Fanfiction.net was made in like 1998, and during the first few years when fanfic got more attention with the rise of the internet, restrictions were made.

Much like tumblr in december 2018, except worse, fanfiction.net purged explicit content. Livejournal, the journaling platform where lots of fandom stuff happened before tumblr, is known for strikethrough, a big, unannounced deletion of fannish content. Because of those purges and restrictions, ao3 was originally made. I’m not trying to paint ao3 as the heroes that saved fandom, well I kinda am, and they are doing great things so that fanfiction can exist and remain accessible.

I think fiction is not just fiction. But fiction is just fiction in the sense that it doesn’t have any direct influence on the real world. We are all allowed to write whatever we want.

Disclaimer: We are all allowed to write whatever we want, except when we call for violence towards others in real life. Further disclaimer: Calling for violence towards others is illegal. Hate speech is illegal. Violent threats are illegal. Promotion of self-harm is illegal. Death threats are illegal.

To come back to fandom: Shipping or not shipping something has nothing to do with morals. Hating on people who ship “unhealthy power dynamics/problematic ships” does not give you the moral high ground. It makes you an asshole. For the love of Riko’s stinky socks, use the blocking feature.

My friend iknowwhoyouaredamianos said: “Hating people irl, lashing out against them, that's the real cruelty. That's so much worse than writing about something fictional.”

If you hate on real people, there is no trigger warning. You can’t don’t-like-don’t-read hate. It will affect that person’s life negatively, whether you intend to do so or not. Don’t be assholes, dears.

Thank you to my friend, and to iknowwhoyouaredamianos for letting me quote you and joining the discussion; and to foxsoulcourt for so many reasons.

Who knew that writing over 2000 words on fandom would be fun?

Dear anon, I hope I answered your question.

I’m gonna conclude this post with the Three Laws of Fandom:

I. Don’t Like; Don’t Read.

II. Your Kink Is Not My Kink.

III. Ship And Let Ship.

8. Links To Stuff That Might Be Of Interest

If you read all of the above and still feel like you don’t understand, have this awesome post by destinationtoast: How to not like fictional things (and not be a dick about it)

Podcasts on fandom culture by fansplaining:

Episode 84: Purity Culture

Episode 85: Age and Fandom

Episode 86: The Money Question

Episode 87: What we discourse about when we discourse about the discourse

Fandom positivity posts I reblogged (because y’all need it):

short post on staying positive in fandom

when discourse gets too stressful

important advice especially for those of you younger than 15 (but also older)

Tumblr user freedom-of-fanfic is writing lots of essays on lots of fandom things, here are some those more or less directly relate to this:

On criticising: Free to write whatever, free to criticise whatever?

A post on Fiction & Reality that answers a question very similar to the one I answered,

and Why fanworks are such a convenient social scrapegoat (kinda a socioeconomical discussion of USA-centric fandom)

There is also a very extensive FAQ by freedom-of-fanfic, with lots of very important writings on fandom culture on tumblr.

Unrelated, but if you’re interested in more of fandom, fanfic, and statistics of both:

http://destinationtoast.tumblr.com/stats

Interesting stuff on Fanlore: Purity Culture in Fandom, AO3 & Censorship, The Advantages of Fan Fiction as an Art Form.

An article on the free speech debate in fandom

Dreamwidth’s Diversity Statement, and Ao3’s Diversity Statement

A cool (and unrelated) thing: Femslash can save the world if we let it

Happy reading, and I hope you learned something.

[thesharondefenseleague]

Sigh* I’m not doing anything else today soooo...

Sour Sharon’s seem to be under the impression that we’re angry, but the truth is they are the bitter ones. Yeah, the kiss repulsed most people. It was disgusting and disturbing and took Steve out character. But guess what? Marvel is about to pretend it didn’t happen. Marvel is about to pretend that Sharon didn’t happen.

Why did you say this? What was your point here? Because even so, it doesn’t change it happened. Much like how they can pretend Betty Ross or the entirety of The Incredible Hulk didn’t happen (extremely underrated btw), but it’s still a thing that happened. Bruce/Nat (also universally hated) was a thing- and as much as people hated that and/or ignored it- it didn’t change the fact it happened. Trust me, Marvel won’t forget about it as much as people like to take about it whether they hated Staron or not.

She’s not going to be in Infinity Wars. She and that kiss were universally panned by audiences and critics alike. That’s a fact! Read any review. And producers had to come out and clarify that Staron wasn’t technically incest because audiences were so repulsed. Which after the release of CW was all they ever said about Sharon and Staron. Hardly a statement of belief in the character or “relationship!” New merchandise didn’t stem from Sharon’s appearance in the MCU.

More rambling as if it’s going to change how I’m supposed to change how I felt about the kiss. You’re right, universally hated I’m afraid I have to admit, but why do we have to reminded? I’ve seen the reviews- and I still don’t see much problems with it, the movie all together was a mess but no one’s talking about that- instead we’re all still pressed over this kiss as if the movie revolved around it. More important things happened in this movie that I wish more people would talk about, but we’re still arguing over a kiss.

Most Marvel women don’t get merchandise... Where’s your outrage over that? Marvel hates making female merchandise, given how Maya Hensen role as the IM3 villain was dropped because Marvel said she wouldn’t sale. #wheresmygamora? Remember that? People still want more Black Widow merch and a movie, Marvel’s second most popular female to Peggy, and even she gets shafted to side in the execs hands.? Marvel favored Peggy for a long time and I get the hype was real with her TV show and her cameos on AOS, Age of Ultron, Ant Man or wherever else. But if you all can’t see she’s being favored over other Marvel women who are shafted then that’s sad. You’re privileged, of course be proud.

The actress who played her has never been invited to a convention as a guest. If anything, playing Sharon hurt her career. She was out of work for year and had to return to TV as a supporting player, not a lead. And even in the comics now, Sharon is being written as an antagonist, maybe even a villain, for a beloved character. And if anyone should try and read her there now, that’s what they are going to see of her: Sharon bullying a young black girl.

I think saying CW hurt her career is a bit harsh, if she finally got some work then that’s good for her, granted it maybe isn’t what she hoped but from what I last read she’s still under contract with Marvel they could very much decide to use her again some time- especially when they go with the BuckyCap arc she could be a supporting player who knows. Emily was put in a bad position, if she had more screen time prior I think most people would’ve warmed up to her, Hollywood would possibly see her as a saleable actress and will sign her for projects left and right. It is not soley Emily’s fault she’s been thrown under the bus because of CW.

Yes, Marvel is making everybody assholes now if you haven’t been paying attention- if I recall they made Magneto HYDRA, of course Cap as well, if they’re going to touch Sharon with that mess then that’s unfortunate that an overall well-loved character would be written in such a way. Congratulations, you may have legitimate reasons to hate her now.

but guess what Sour Sharon’s – YOU LOSE. You can blame misogyny and sexism and ship wars all you like, but Sharon had her shot to move into the mainstream and people hated her. The character will never recover from being Peggy’s poor substitute, her incestuous niece. Sharon Carter is either completely forgettable or completely hated by mainstream media, and I’m glad. Be sour – sour Sharon’s because no one liked your fav.

I didn’t know we were competing...

It’s good to know you feel this way......

Anyway, If you weren’t so mad then why did you make this confession? And why is it in the tag? And why are you still pressed over how we feel? We’re here in this tag because we’re mostly a community that loves Sharon and it’s you guys who are coming here and telling us why you don’t like her or why we should hate her, you’re trying to make yourselves heard to a group of fans who are going to refute you? Which I don’t understand it honestly. If you guys really cared to prove how bad a human Sharon is we’d get more of these types of posts publicly, the hate blog would cross tag their posts in places other than Sharon related tags, and we probably wouldn’t be here, but again it’s just one...two people who we can, for the most part, tolerate like I’ve learned to tolerate MOST things that’s said from anti blogs but now and then I see the incoherent mess and I’m obliged to say something.

-Mod T