#its not a tb vs tg thing

[resident-fuckup]

I never make posts but man the HOTD fandom on tumblr is embarrassing. I find myself blocking people constantly due to the toxicity just because the way they only approach shows from a shipping and stan culture side.

I grew up on this site and have been a part of shipping before, but the way some of y’all will wildly misinterpret or condemn a show for not being written in the wildly ooc interpretation you have is shameful. The characters aren’t “poor little mew mews” this is a piece of media where you cant project that onto characters.

Hell, some of you even claim to read the books and your takes are so far fetched im sure you just say you read the book to get moral superiority in arguments. Its clear you either didnt read it or have ass reading comprehension skills.

Anyway this isn’t the entire fandom of course, but it’s very frustrating not being able to actually talk about the shows mistakes (and its successes) when 9/10 posts are about how shit your comprehension skills are. We have been on this hellsite forever, there are nearly no new users so I know for a fact most of y’all cant hide behind the excuse of being kids.

Thats all, the rest of you ily and hopefully we can keep having the chill discussions we have been!

[lovl3igh]

"they made greens worse in show to push blacks agenda" "they made blacks worse in show to push green agenda" truth is they made daemon and viserys worse and greens are now arouse sympathy and rhaenyra is made more soft and all that destroys mostly female characters and is for more drama and to push whole tg vs tb thing for bigger marketing while saying that's not what we supposed to do (season 1)

and yes, greens are worse in the books, making alicent innocent in the beginning and stating murder of luke as accident was to make them look better. and yes daemon was more "grey" character in the book, while in show almost every scene who was supposed to make him look like good father, husband or just vulnarable guy was cut out or belittled, his relationships make him look like bad guy - killing rhea, admitting to not fully loving laena, abusing nyra - instead of book!daemon who is against everyone but his family (except of green side), there's show!daemon who goes against his family or ignore its' members. and yes there are things when the greens are shown worse than in the books and black better than they were written

but changing ages of characters harms team black only. and since there's many changes of those and that's of many important characters it DOES make team black look worse and makes team green victims

1. alicent instead of being adult woman going against little girl (alicent 18yo and rhaenyra only 9) is now teenager sexually abused by viserys who is even older than her in the show than in f&b. being rhaenyra's peer - and her former friend - also changes the dynamic because now people claim rhaenyra caused break up of their friendship as if she wasn't just suffering 14yo. no, alicent is no more adult woman climbing for power and acting against child, it's a teenager abondoned by her best friend after being force into relationship with much older guy

2. jace, luke and dragon twins aged up - now in book it was 10yo aemond who attacked 3yo joffrey and then fought 4yo luke and 5yo jace*. in the show 11yo (according to s2 timeline) aemond is fighting four kids in the age from 8 to 10. so he doesn't attacks children at least 2x younger than him but is jumped by almost his peers. poor aemond, right?

*before someone say "jace was 6 and luke 5" - jace was born in late 114 AC and luke in late 115, meanwhile laena died at the beggining of 120 AC, which makes them 5 and 4 years old respectively

3. we don't have actual age of twins but looking at actors' ages, jaehaerys and jaehaera were 4, maybe 5 years old, tho in s1 they looked like toddlers. now it's not a big book to show change, 6 to 4yo, but it still look kinda worse to murder boy who barely stopped being a toddler than 6yo

4. daemon fell in love with laena when she was 22 (!!!). she wasn't a teenager. she wasn't also 12yo when offered by her parents to viserys. making her younger in the show made daemon, corlys and rhaenys look worse than in f&b (the only person who looked "better" - there's no good word for that i'm afraid - in that situation was viserys, who decided to marry 15yo and not 12yo. good for you, pedo?)

5. joffrey being 6yo with baby dragon makes rhaenyra look worse and like an oathbreaker. sending baby dragons to the vale instead of dragon who can at very least carry his rider doesn't look cool even though was funny for a second, because she technically didn't break her word, she DID send a dragon, even two, but that was a loophole

6. not exactly the same but - fabien frankel and matt smith' casting. i'm not saying they don't play their characters well or anything. that's not the point. the point is that fabien was born in 1994, matt smith in 1982 and milly alcock in 2000. there's 12 years age difference between fabien and matt but between cole and daemon is supposed to be only a year. now daemon is still called a groomer and cole is not because he is played by a guy only 6 years older than milly. and there are also people who now call him a victim and not rhaenyra

so yeah, i don't really wanna see anymore how much blacks look better in the show than in the book and greens worse... because that's not true. yeah, there are things done that make tb look a bit better but the show started with making the greens victims they weren't at all in the book and a lot of that has to do with ages changing

[coffeebooksrain18]

Something I never understood is why the show runners had to do the whole "good vs evil" trope. Like thats not why people watched GoT, we watched it cause it had complex characters that did bad things but we could understand why they did them. Like even Joffery Baratheon could be understood in the sense we all understood he was bad shit cause he was a incest baby.

But HotD makes it where if TB does something it's out of sacrifice and good will, but if TG does the same exact thing in the same exact way its made out to be out of greed and cruelty. When in reality all of these characters are cruel, greedy, have made sacrifices, done things for the good of others.

If I wanted to watch a Good Vs Evil show I would go to Disney not a asoiaf show. And Ryan Condal and Sara Hess need to fucking get that instead of treating us like we're dumb and just can't get the nuances. We can, your just horrible show runners and show writers who are so prideful and full of yourselves you can't admit when your wrong and that you've ruined this story to the point it's not even close to the same as it was in the book.

[theweirwoodfiles]

Not to sound overdramatic but stan culture has irreparably damaged the ASOIAF fandom and created very black and white thinking re: characters and kind of, like, a tribalistic atmosphere - for instance, if you love the Starks you can't also love the Targaryens. GoT also helped the fandom decay because it almost completely removed the fantasy elements from a fantasy series. So now you have a fandom that honestly thinks the War for the Dawn is no biggie and that Targs are the REAL threat.

Absolutely. This sort of mentality was at its peak during S7&8 of GOT when you had Sansa stans vs Daenerys stans because for some reason the fandom decided you cant enjoy both. One has to be “an ender” and the other “a flop”. They would put all their effort into sympathizing with the trauma of one, and then use the others trauma as a joke to show how they got “ate up”. So really their sympathy and understanding of a character only extends to their favs.

And we’re seeing it again with this team green vs team black fan war and it’s even worse because the show actively markets it. The fandoms of each team have this “us vs them” mentality again, and because of it they don’t engage with the story critically at all. They only want their team to “win”, whether that be having the best moments, the best characters, the best writing, they take each and any little moment they can possibly cling to to spin as some sort of win for them and loss for the other side. 

What’s funny is that even in the TG vs TB discourse you can still see traces of the anti-targ/Dany phenomenon, despite the fact that both sides are Targaryens. Many Sansa stans have become Aegonwives (ironic) and Alicent stans and hate Rhaenyra and Daemon for having qualities that members of team green also share. They don’t care about the hypocrisy though, they just see team black as the closest thing to Dany, that’s the source of their hatred.

(And mind you, Aegon and Aemond embody all things they claim to hate about Targaryens).

[lovelykhaleesiii]

can I just say this fandom is getting so ... toxic and out of hand I go to twitter there's shit, I come to tumblr there's more shit 🤡 honestly the hate towards actors and even amongst fans, and creators be it art, fanfic or whatever... Is so disgusting... It's like either you have to agree with every single world someone says or else you're the enemy and get told you should go kys or worse... the racism towards poc actors and overall bully behaviour makes me mad af ... ppl forget how they are just doing their jobs, they don't write the scripts they just act them out...

I haven't interacted with fandom for months now, given the amount discourse between writers had me shook, so basically blocked every account that showed up on dash regarding it all, but with season 2 coming I thought hey why not see how things are... Idk it's like nothing changed for some folk ... They still hate Emma for not being the Rhaenyra they want, the hate Olivia for just playing her part, they hate tom because ... the poor man is playing a controversial character ... They hate Bethany for being a woc ...

Sorry for the rant, I've just been so frustrated with seeing everything... Plan to block all hotd tags and certain creators because honestly I just pop by on tumblr to browse through things and sometimes read a fic or two but lately the amount of bad behaviour I've seen in this fandom from writers or just random hateful folk have just ruined the whole experience for me.

I totally get you nonnie & I’m so sorry you feel this way, especially with s2 just days away from airing…

I do think as unfortunate as it is, majority of this fandom is actually quite heinous and disgusting. the behaviour I’ve seen towards the cast members and towards each other in this space is so hostile and vile, I’m openly ashamed to be part of it. all this back and forth bullshit with TG vs TB is just actual fucking nonsense. like who gives an actual shit? there’s an entire genocide happening but let’s ignore that and rip each other’s heads off about fictional people… humanity at its finest.

I’m actually being deadass when I say, I’m so over this discourse between the teams regarding HOTD. like no team is better than the other, that was the whole point of the story.

hence why, I’m trying to remove myself a little bit from the fandom space especially on tumblr. only trying to focus my energy and interest into the story / show itself.

after all the drama that unfolded especially in this fandom these last few months, there’s a lot of hypocritical behaviour and I’ve honestly got no energy anymore.

more important things in life than arguing with twats on the internet.

so I definitely recommend removing yourself from toxic people in this fandom, whether you need to ghost or block them. you’ll be saving yourself 🫶🏻

sending you only good vibes anon, and I hope you can find some solace in my little corner. that’s what I can offer to anyone that feels the same!

[rise-my-angel]

did you see the new promo for HOTD season 2 with actors from both sides by any chance. TB actors sound literally no different from targ stans on twitter and tumblr and even said they were better looking than TG and had a better bloodline than TG. YIKES.

I was deadass sitting there like I'M SORRY WHAT IS THIS TWILIGHT??? WHY IS THE SHOW PROMOTING THIS INSANE TEAM WAR LIKE ITS CUTE???

Also like the whole bloodline thing just being uncritically pushed by anyone involved in the series or fandom like, its not funny. It's a very deeply disturbing aspect of Targaryean traditions and general Valyrian culture. It is so utterly rooted in xenophobia, and also promotes this idea that a side of the family is more valid because they did more incestual inbreeding without ANY discussion of why it's wrong and harmful to all involved.

Its the weirdest thing. I get actors hyping up their side for promos, but already the Team Black vs Team Green thing gets so nasty and mud slinging in the fandom we do not need the actors encouraging this behavior.

The Dance of Dragons is literally one big cautionary tale about exactly why the Targaryean dynasty was doomed to fail. It's the story about how the worst parts of their own mentality and in family culture, not only ruins each others lives, but that they were ALL willing to sacrifice the well being of the people they rule over just to prove their side of the SAME family is somehow better.

There are no teams in the Dance because its a story about how everyone involved contributed to this families atrocious and selfish tendencies, that will always be a self fulfilling prophecy of their self destruction.

Everyone here was bad and none of them deserved the power they fought and killed for.

Thats the point of this story.

[horizon-verizon]

https://www.tumblr.com/kingsanddragonsandgods/730998927210496000

Its interesting how TG states how TB "believe" the crown belongs to them as if the KING didn't proclaim Rhaenyra as Heir for 20+ years and didn't let up.

Also interesting how they say Team Black are annoying and boring when the show runners had to add "bullying" to Aemond's story line and made Alicent a child bride and "Rhaenyra's bestie" lmao. But yeah, Otto, the man who pimped out his daughter, is def "morally grey"

🤷🏼‍♂️ It's a mystery. I wrote about the bullying in the show vs the book HERE & HERE, as for the things anon mentioned, I think the part about the bullying needs more explanation.

[theweirwoodfiles]

Youre welcome, although your last line in your paragraph confuses me. I reblogged you with polite disagreement and curiosity, that is why we are having this conversation. Although if you don't wan't to have this discussion, you are more than welcome to block or ignore me. I just wanted to know your thoughts on the actor's interpretations, because as I said, I do feel they hold more authority than ours. They work closely with the writers and directors, and they have to keep in mind not only their characterization, but the other character's as well in order to properly act out the scene.

I think that is very fair to trust only the writers or directors. I haven't looked too closely at what they say, since its mostly the actors who get interviewed.

Yes, most of the fanbase or general audience views Rhaenyra as the protagonist and "good side" in the show. This is where it gets tricky, because those with fandom bias are going to feel a certain way of course, and then you have general audiences who likely really only know three character's names and everyone else is "the brother" or "the son", so they are only going to pick up basic traits for characters on the side they prefer. That's another reason why I personally tend to listen closely to what those involved in the show have to say.

Now onto the mushroom debacle, I'm personally from this point in the conversation going forward only going to use show canon, as it is the most relevant and recent canon. The book and show are just completely two separate entities at this point. I'm not going to get into a who has the better morality when it comes to the tb vs tg children, you have already admitted Aegon is worse than the other kids, and it's also not where my curiosity comes from. What I am curious about and trying to understand is does the tb kids level of morality prevent you from liking them? Are you unable to get past the way they treated Aemond (again, I am only using show canon for this), or is this just a case where you simply don't click with them or care about them, because thats why I brought up the scale of morality.

There is no such thing as a "pure bean" in awoiaf, unless you are like, under the age of 10. Personally, I think your interpretations and criticisms of these 4, especially Rhaena, are a little harsh, but it is pretty impossible to be completely pure in a cruel medieval world during a time of nobility and dragons. While I can't speak for every single team black fan, I think I can safely say most team black fans see these 4 characters as fairly good, or as good as you can be, espeically in comparison to others around them. And that's why you see a firm defense over them, especially when its's in response to a take about them being evil or bratty, or awful, or however you wanna call it.

Anyways, that's why I opened the conversation, I was just curious and interested in discussion on your position is all.

Every time Team Black stans talk about Rhaenyra’s bastards and the Dragon Twins as if they’re blessings upon this earth, an angel loses its wings.

Like, okay. They’re children, I’m excusing all of them up to a certain point. But they’re some of the most vicious, aggressive, cowardly, snotty brats we’ve ever seen in this franchise and pretending that they’re not is so foul.

Lucerys is a hypocritical twat that bullied the boy he grew up with because he didn’t have a dragon, but then he’s totally okay hanging out with Rhaena who doesn’t have one either. And then he pulls out a knife and blinds Aemond for no fucking reason, after his gang attacked him first, and faces zero consequences for his actions. He eventually grows up to become an even worse person by literally laughing in his cousin’s face, whom he disabled. And then he tries to boss lord Borros around by telling him that he’s obligated to ally with Rhaenyra even if there isn’t anything in him for it.

Jacaerys is also very two faced for the exact same reasons as Lucerys, with the addition of having anger management issues. Like, remember how he beats the living shit out of his little brother when they’re training at the beach, kicks him to the ground and grabs him by the throat because he is upset their uncles are better warriors than them? That’s the good future king you’re all talking about? He is already obsessed with the idea of becoming king, to the point that his own mother has to remind him that she’s actually alive and well and he would have to wait a good fucking while before his dreams come true. That’s actually so sick on his behalf. Not to mention that he very likely married Sara Snow, betraying his fiancée, in order to gain the Starks’ help, which is very dishonourable. At least Lucerys told Borros he’s betrothed and refused to marry one of his daughters to get his support, I’ll give him that.

Baela is a deranged evil girl who was ready to throw hands on sight, too. And have we forgotten that she becomes a drunkard and whoremonger who spends her money gambling in the rat pits, the places where children fight one another in King’s Landing, once she grows up, or is it wrong only when Aegon II does it?

Rhaena is an aggressive coward who seems more preoccupied with the acquisition of a dragon than her mother’s death. She didn’t have the guts to go and claim Vhagar, but she feels powerful enough to confront Aemond when she has three people backing her up.

Finally, even without taking all of their problematic traits into account, these people are so severely uninteresting and unimpressive. Lucerys does not convince Borros to side with his mother and drops dead like a fly. Joffrey gets shrugged off by Syrax and plummets to his demise. Jacaerys is immediately killed during his embarrassing attempt to fight the Triarchy, not to mention that he was the reason his youngest half siblings were captured and nearly killed because he had the brilliant idea of sending them away. Baela loses the only dragon fight she was ever part of to Aegon II and Sunfyre who were very injured by a previous fight already! And Rhaena is just… there. Doing nothing. Never avenging her husband’s death, eventually marrying a Hightower. Yikes.

Are there much more ill behaved children in ASOIAF? Yeah, for sure, but we actually acknowledge that children like Aegon II and Joffrey Baratheon are pieces of shit. But if we could like, stop glorifying these four mediocre and borderline malicious kids solely because some of you feel the need to ride the dicks of everyone who is part of Rhaenyra’s crew, that would be great. They might be children, but they’re children with shady, putting it mildly, personalities, wielding new-clear weapons of mass destruction who actively participated in a war, especially Jacaerys and Baela. They sure were victims of the world they were raised in, but they were aggressors as well. And like, this is the ASOIAF universe, nearly all of our protagonists are children. We can’t constantly apply modern day morals and coddle them forever because “OMG, they are just babies!”, unless we are ready to apply the same logic on the Targtowers, who were basically the same age as Rhaenyra and Daemon’s children.