#its my personal no proof ''___ is miquella''

[nectarblood]

<- plagued with irrationally thinking every trailer narrator is miquella

[space-blue]

Less theory crafting and more me having an episode of some sort

Everyone is focusing on Marika betraying the hornsent at the gates of Divinity and who/what was going down with that "affair" mentioned, and I'm like... can we please not forget the fingers??

Why is nobody talking about the Fingers?? And who is the Grandmother mentioned in her braid item description?

We're told (by a pretty cookie guy) that the fingers and Marika were "unsound from the start".

We also see the craters in which the Fingers/Metyr first arrived. So like... did that happen during Marika's lifetime? Or was she born to a Shaman numen village that was already communicating/communing with Metyr somehow?

"A braid of golden hair, cut loose. Queen Marika's offering to the Grandmother. What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again."

You can see the missing braid on this statue BTW.

Is the grandmother perhaps a finger reader? Did Marika harness the Greater Will's powers to take over? Or was the Greater Will already arround and in use by the hornsent? I certainly didn't see any proof of that. There is also no example of a finger reader anywhere while their bodies pepper the ground in some areas of the base game.

From my personal experience riding around and reading what I find, it seems like Marika, part of a people destined for inhuman torture in jars, all for lofty goals of "sainthood", whatever that means, made a secret prayer, wish and confession, to this reverential Grandmother figure.

There was already signs of tree worship, what with the lifelike human shape within the tree you find the gifted braid at. It reminds me of Miquella's own shape in his tree.

We also see people eembedded in trees in the keep on our way to the final boss. Clearly this is something endemic to this land, that Marika implemented in the Lands Between. Maybe the difference between that tree and Miquella's is simply the divinity of the person at its core.

Anyway, she clearly confessed she was about to do something F'ed Up, wished for revenge and prayed for success... Or prayed to the Greater Will, accepting to become a vessel for it if it can give her the tools to destroy her oppressors.

I'd like to also mention that the fingers mushroom has completely whack lore :

You're telling me people want to be fingers so bad that they eat that mushroom to hallucinate that they are? And fingers are basically mushrooms growing off the Erdtree?? Like some sort of alien parasite?

What's the timeline then???

Metyr makes landfall. She's the first shooting star in the Lands between. Some time later, the Elden Beast arrives. It is explicitely a vassal beast and the one that carries the Elden Ring.

The Erdtree sprouts from the Elden Ring, so the tree, whatever it was called at the time, predates all this. We have the hornsent, in their own land, doing their own thing. And in the Lands between we have Placidusax as Elden Lord, with his own god. Meanwhile the hornsent are building spirals to try and reach the gods, and stuffing people into jars to make "saints". Maybe that mentality is what leads them to making the pillars of divinity out of freshly slaughtered people...

The entire time Metyr is (presumably??) making babies that serve as relays to the Greater Will. But allegedly relay to her and her to nothing at all, and they give garbled guidance the entire time?? Was Placidussax using fingers to get his guidance? I don't know.

Then Marika cuts her braid, makes a prayer, and leaves her village. She has an affair (which doesn't have to be sexual) is involved into seduction (her being seduced, or her doing the seducing? Again, doesn't have to be sexual) and betrays the hornsent. This is pretty obvious.

We see her pull gold thread out of something, and I've seen theories it's grace from the eyes of Placidussax's god. Grace from the gloam eyed queen belly, some sort of egg, or even the serpent Messmer is bound to.

I frankly have no idea. The previous age being of the crucible, some have guessed THAT is the crucible, or its physical form. I wonder if that thing is at all related to the jars, which are so prominent in the story. Sainthood is never explained, but was the goal of jar making perhaps related?

It would certainly explain Marika's presence for such a ritual, since she can't have had crazy status as a shaman? Or else she did do some seducing, and was there in some other official capacity.

Does Hoarah come into play already?? Does Serosh??? Were the fingers guiding her, leading her on, explaining how she needs a consort, and the strands of the Elden Ring, so that she can kickstart her own order?

Were the fingers guiding the hornsent towards that tree making goal already, and Marika highjacked that?

You also have to see the way the gate is a fused mass of bodies reaching to the sky, and their culture was obsessed with stuffing people into jars to bring them closer to the divine. The serpent fuses with Messmer and the God devouring serpent is made out of writhing bodies. The erdtree is stuffed with corpses at its root, and the trees in the hornsent settlements are as well.

It seems like ascending to a higher power or to godhood requires an enormous sacrifice.

In that regard, we also see Miquella speedrun the god thing, and he discards his flesh, his emotions and his doubts (not great) and worst of all, his love. Which really saddens a nearby ghost, and prompts his own alter ego to beg us to kill him. Because godhood would be torture/a cage to him.

Then he's at the gate, trying to use the reanimated corpse of one half brother, stuffed with the compliant and silent soul of another... The making of his lord required the killing of two demi gods, which is maybe just as meaningful as killing hundreds of nobodies.

Did Marika strike an alliance with the Abyssal Serpent and a lord of the Badlands and a Beast because that's who she had to ally herself with against the hornsent? Was Maliketh given to her as half brother/shadow as a form of alliance with Serosh's people? And she then gave her firstborn son to the serpent?

Or did she turn parts of her allies into her first children by stuffing them into jars? I've seen that theory, and it certainly would help explain why Messmer is half fused with a serpent and Melina (his little sister) has a gloam eye.

Marika could then promptly have betrayed *everyone*, killing the GEQ, The serpent, and reducing Serosh to a ghostly limiter for her husband, and her new brother into a tool for future plans.

She went on a crusade of violence, conquest, and never stopped fucking with the hornsent back home, hiding their realm from view and making it the recipient of every death.

Then she stops to take a breather and study the Greater Will a little closer, realises how wrong it is. Maybe finally cotoning on to Metyr's abandonment. Maybe she also sees the plans for her own replacement.

So she creates the Tarnished, tasks them to return, enable Ranni and give her shaman (??) numen girlies to go kill her child with. And assuming Godwyn is perfect because Marika divested herself of her love (the same way we know Miquella did) and formed him with it, then it's possible she has little trouble sacrificing him for her plans. Marika has very few qualms about sacrifice, clearly.

Eventually she breaks the Elden Ring, knowing it'll shatter the Greater Will's influence and trap her (Radagon, can't fit him in this easily), but she'll bide her time.

I wonder if she thought her definition of Order was flawed. I wonder if she saw that she'd become the same as the people who made her, sacrificing others. I wonder if any of it was part and parcel with her divinity, and that her only way out was to be slain by the next god chosen by the (broken) fingers.

I wonder WHEN the fingers started rotting.

I wonder if Marika had it in for the hornsent, or had it in for the Outer Will from the get go. With base game I was pretty happy with the theorry that Marika, as a numen, was playing the Long LONG con against the Outer Will, getting to godhood to lay the fundation of her betrayal. There are plenty of signs of premeditation, the Tarnished themselves being the biggest of them all.

The guidance of Grace now can basically only come from Marika herself as well! So it's another big tell.

But now we learn her very ascencion is born of betrayal. In the sin of mass sacrifice (and with the potential guidance of a broken fallen star)

And you gotta wonder... were jars made for the Greater Will? Is the Greater Will, which is THE big creator of life, the god that the hornsent were making saints for? Was it the Greater Will's teachings, or past incarnation of gods, that gave life to shamans only to wip them raw and merge them into other being until they made jars? Whatever that meant? Do baby jars contain shaman children???

Is Alexander related the Marika???????

More seriously, it's fascinating that Jar making culture went from stuffing live people in it, to becoming a funeral practice, with the living jar stuffing corpses inside itself and absorbing their power. That seems... like an evolution? The people Alexander stuffs inside him are not alive. UNLESS the core that makes Alexander is also a fucked up shaman.

WHY IS THERE A BONNY VILLAGE WITH A POTENTATE IN THE LANDS BETWEEN???? Who is perpetuating that tradition, and why? Shouldn't Marika be livid and forbid it? Or does she allow its continuing because the nature of the jars has changed? Is the village made from rescued jars containing people she once knew and loved?

What about the giant massive ass fucking jar outside the arena? How do you explain that one? Surely if anyone is going to reach sainthood, it'll be that jar...

Anyway. Could Marika have started with a deeply ingrained hatred for the Greater Will? Could her becoming its god just be her way to highjack its power and start ruling, even as she planned its very downfall?

This would even mesh well with Ranni's ending, or the three fingers. Any ending that basically ends the Greater Will's influence would be a victory for such a Marika. Where she'd make the ultimate sacrifice of her own self.

Anyway, please scream back at me!!!

[miquella-everywhere]

Elden Ring Analysis: The Greater Will and its control of Marika and Radagon

This is just me trying to figure out the timeline of Marika and Radagon along with some speculation.

The Greater Will sends down the Elden Beast and presumably around this time Marika is chosen to be the vessel for the Elden Ring (Whether she was born a vessel or chosen later in her life is unknown)

She marries Godfrey and the War of the Fire Giants happens, Marika/the Erdtree is victorious against them leaving only one Fire Giant left. She curses him to tend to the forge and she too is cursed herself either by the Giant or the Fell God

Marika presumably gives birth to Godwyn after this as there is no evidence that he fought during the War of the Giants(at least none that i could find)

Also at some point Morgott and Mohg were born. But it begs the question of who was born first? The Omen Twins or Godwyn 🤔 Who is Marikas first born?

And so it was also during this time that Marika likely began to harbor her own doubts about the Golden Order, and it likely stemmed from its treatment of Morgott and Mohg

I personally believe that Marika loved her children alongside Godfrey, but unfortunately for her and the twins, Order must be upheld, so they are cast away into the shunning grounds.

Marikas doubts began to grow and Godfrey went on to concur the rest of the Lands Between. He went on to the Stormlords in Limgrave and Castle Morne and when they all fell to him, the first part of Marikas plan began.

She divested grace from Godfrey and his warriors making them Tarnished.

So the Greater Will, sensing its vessels doubts, and potentially, her brewing betrayal, procured insurance and made Radagon.

And also, during this time while Godfrey was campaigning in the south, Leyndell was also seeing strife with the Carians and Raya Lucaria in the west.

Radagons exact origins are debatable, either the curse of the Fire Giants on Marika cast away and given life, but my personal belief is that he was taken from Marikas soul. Her literal other half.

With Marikas own faith wavering Radagon in turn was meant to be a perfect and loyal follower of the Golden Order; given all of his actions regarding Caria, going to war against them and then marrying into them when their subjugation wasn't an option, leaving without hesitation when he was called back and leaving Rennala a husk of her former self, (also turning rennalas wedding gift, the moonlight greatsword, into the golden order greatsword as a show of proof to his dedication to the Golden Order like how fucking RUDE) it was likely all according to a much larger plan to cripple Caria in order to make the Golden Order/Greater Wills influence more powerful

With all of this in mind, I would say that the extent of Radagons own agency and personhood is debatable.

So then, Marika exiles Godfrey and when that happens Radagon is called back to the Capital to become second Elden Lord (the exact timeframe between with Godfrey leaves and Radagon returns to Leyndell is unknown)

So Marika and Radagon wed and do the deed resulting in Miquella and Malenia.

The exact relationship that Marika had with her children is a mystery but considering the Gideon dialogue saying that "perhaps the Queens sorrow was justified" means that she cared for and loved them very much. And since Miquella and Malenia were both born cursed this likely added even more to Marikas grief and doubts about the Greater Will.

And while Radagons relationship with Malenia is unknown, in canon he was close with Miquella in their youth, as Miquella attempted to find a cure for Malenia within Golden Order Fundamentalism, Radagon was there by his sons side developing incantations

But when Miquella discovered that Fundamentalism could do nothing to cure Malenia of her rot, he promptly rejected it in full, and presumably Radagon as well.

Now, personally, I can't imagine that this went well for Radagon. Considering his "leal hound" status and how he is wholly dedicated to the Greater Will he possibly saw Miquella, his prodigy son, an Empyrean chosen to potentially succeed Marika(Himself) as perfect. So when his golden child rejected everything to do with the Golden Order it probably stung Radagon to his core. (but thats just my opinion lol)

So Miquella and Malenia leave Leyndell and a few several centuries or millennia pass and then the fateful Night of the Black Knives happens.

Godwyn the Golden is murdered. Queen Marika is driven to the brink. And shatters the Elden Ring. While Radagon attempts to repair it at the same time.

Now with the shattering of the Elden Ring Marika is essentially commiting suicide as she is its vessel. She is the Elden Ring as much as the Elden Ring is also Radagon. And so the two halves, once separate but destined to become one, as per the Law of Regression, fuse together permanently and are imprisoned within the Erdtree by the Elden Beast.

And even though Radagon attempted to repair the Elden Ring and was still completely loyal to the Golden Order, he too was punished, as he is at his core, whether he wants to be or not, Queen Marika.

And this also makes me believe that Radagon and Marika most likely despised eachother.

Edit:

Also ANOTHER interesting thing featuring Marika and her apparent disdain for the Golden Order is her relationship with Maliketh. Her shadow and supposed half-brother is treated very poorly by Marika, or at least that's how the item description read to me. Marikas sole purpose for Maliketh was to contain destined death, and after that she had no further use for him and kinda just... tossed him to the side. And yet Maliketh still remains loyal to her, and continues to try a battle and consume death, as that is what killed Marikas beloved Godwyn.

Although there also may have been a lapse in his loyalty, specifically when Marika shattered the Elden Ring. There's a red stake/spear(?) going through her body as she's imprisoned in the Edtree and I believe that may have been inflicted by Maliketh, for a Shadow must put down their Empyrean if they ever stray from the Erdtrees path.

[miquella-everywhere]

Promised Consort Radahn makes literally no sense as far as lore and sucks as far as gameplay. Miquella's whole thing is to divest himself of his lineage and right Marika's wrongs. And then he marries someone in his lineage and ascends to godhood using the same mechanism as Marika? Not only does he marry someone of his lineage, he picks the ultimate Godfrey / Radagon fanboy? Whose whole thing in the base game is wanting things to stay the same? Who's a war guy?

I get he wants a gentle world, but Marika presumably did too at some point, given the shaman / jar lore. All the kindness of gold, none of the order? Did Miquella just miss shaman village in his travels cause 😭

And as for the whole tragedy of the cycle repeating itself, that doesn't make sense to me either. Repetition of cycle was never really a theme in the base game, and no other character seems to be beholden to it? Fate is kind of a wonky concept in the game anyway. Like, his Great Rune states he's abandoned his fate, but did he? What was his fate supposed to be if not becoming a god as an empyrean?

I've heard people talk about the lily on Radahn's cape in the base game as being evidence this was planned out, do you have any opinions on that?

Also, since people are talking about it, what're your thoughts on the tortured albinaurics in Castle Sol? Do we even have evidence that he was physically at Castle Sol or did the albinaurics there just worship him like the other albinaurics do?

The Miq plot is just straight up awful anon 😭 Everything involved with Miquella in the DLC is just full of contradictions and plot holes and gaps in logic that genuinely make me wonder wtf Miyazaki was smoking when he came up with this shit. If he had just stuck to the Base Game plot of Miquella wishing to revive/or grant Godwyn a true death we would NOT be in this predicament 😭 But no. We're here because Radahn is Miyazakis ultra-favorite Gary Sue and he mutilated Miquella and Godwyns story just to jam him into the DLC.

I will die mad.

But moving on...

If you wanna go off of Radahns cape embroidery being proof that he promised himself to Miquella then by that logic Rykard was also Miquella's promised consort with the Lily's on his Takers Cameo

It's an incredibly loose and fickle connection that I personally would not put any stock into.

As for the Albinaurics at Castle Sol; from a mechanical and gameplay perspective the Castle is riddled with spectral guards and the Albinaurics there serve the purpose of screaming when you get too close to them to alert the spectral guards and for them to swarm you. To my knowledge there is no other enemy in the game that serves as an "alerting" function so that's probably the main reason why they were put their, just to make your life hell making it through the Castle lol

But from a lore perspective, I would never consider this as definitive proof that Miquella was a horrible person all along like certain people are trying to spin it. I do no like that approach whatsoever. Also Miquella has been MIA for a couple hundred/thousand years by now so I don't think he has any input on what's going down at the Castle at this point.

Also, Castle Sol as it's own thing is interesting. There is very little proof that Miquella visited the place personally; the only Lily to be found there is a St. Trina's Lily and even then, it is found around the back of the Castle. The ghost at the top of the Castle does reference Miquella and was given the Haligtree Medallion half, but I think it's important to consider that Castle Sol is evidently a penal colony as its main enemies are all Exiled Knights and Banished Knights, where they are all dishonored and prisoners of the place.

So either these Albinaurics here could be prisoners, and there is voiced dialogue of Albinaurics cursing all life so maybe these ones are the bad bad ones and that's why they are here, or maybe Commander Niall is a just a bigoted jerk and hates Albinaurics like everyone else in the Lands Between. But who's to say 🤷

But yeah, while Castle Sol may be affiliated with Miquella, it's also sort of its own thing and under independent management lol

Also Miquella's gifting of the Haligtree Half could have been him essentially being like, "Hey, invoke my Eclipse and I shall forgive your crimes and grant you a place at my sanctuary." Which imo is a pretty decent promise for reform.

But.... the Eclipse was a plotline that was tossed out the fucking window in the DLC so who knows what's the truth or not anymore 😔