#it's the whole Jaime Brienne are platonic argument

[alicentsaegon]

Can I just say that had Nettles been canonically a pretty white woman no one, absolutely no one would question her and Daemon's relationship as anything other than romantic/sexual. There would be no theories on her being his bastard, there would be no erasing her character and what she represents to the story just to hype up their blood supremacist ship and make it look as healthy as possible or make it look as this grand love story (Daemon and Rhaenyra are are best when they are at their worst <3) just saying. When Nettles left and upon her departure Caraxes roared so loudly he broke all the windows of the castle. Almost as if dragons and riders have a soul bond and that scene was specifically meant to reflect how Daemon felt as if his soul was crying out for her. Hmmmmmm. Also idk guys do many men take baths with their daughters? Even Targaryen men?

[melrosing]

What's your least favorite discourse in the ASoIaF fandom? Mine is the "Robb's will/Who will be KitN/QitN" discourse. Usually I do have a side in a debate or I agree somewhat with everyone so it's interesting to read other people's points, but this time I don't even care.

Oh and Sansa VS Arya discourse because every time they bring up the same arguments and it's just a lot of nastiness everywhere. It's so boring now.

omg SO MANY

Sansa vs Arya discourse has to come top. virtually every side of this debate (and there are way more than they should be) has become in some way unhinged

Is Jaime Lannister On A Redemption Arc (And Was He Going to Trebuchet a Baby)

Dany is Already a Mad Tyrannical Teenager and Here’s How

that whole business about Jaime being evil for not having mentioned the wildfire under KL

Platonic Boner Discourse

Is R+L=J true? yes people. yes it is. so can we please move into the acceptance stage and get on w our lives

Brienne/Ned/Davos/Tommen/Ser Pounce is a Bad Person Actually and Here’s How

Literally anything to do with the Maggy the Frog prophecy, from the girlboss battle royale that is YMBQ discourse to the literally never ending valonqar candidates, who HASN’T been theorised yet

Pretty Meris is alternate timeline Brienne

Catelyn is the Root of All Evil and Can Be Blamed for Everything

Who is the Greatest Swordsman in Westeros Ever (I’ve just seen this one too many times)

and this is probably only a sampling I’m just sleepy lol

[antijonsa]

So do you guys remember when GRRM said he created Sansa specifically because he thought the Starks got along too well? And those of us who don’t care for Jonsa have been throwing it in the faces of Jonsas like it’ll shut them down--like it’s proof that Sansa’s not important? Here is why it doesn’t work: Because literally anything you say to a Jonsa will be taken as proof of the opposite. eg. “She’s not even his favorite sister.” “I don’t want her to be his sister I want her to be his wife.” Or: “His path lies North, hers in the South.” “But wouldn’t it be ironic.”

What’s happening in the above meta is we have snuck in the assumption that because there is tension, it must be resolved. Sansa is the source of tension in the Stark family; therefore it must be resolved by way of Jonsa. This sounds good until you start reckoning with all the other unresolved tensions that abound. There’s five fucking books, do we really think “Sansa didn’t love Jon the way the other Starklings did” is the only thing that’s keeping ASOIAF from a satisfactory conclusion? Do we think Sansa’s relationships with, say, Arya or Sandor don’t also require resolution?

I also take issue with the contention that Cersei-Jaime-Brienne isn’t that interesting. I don’t even actively ship either of those ships and I read fic all the time. There’s nearly as much Braime fic as Jonsa fic. I mean, just because it’s not that interesting to you doesn’t mean it’s not interesting to the fandom at large. Plus, even if the fandom didn’t give a rat’s ass about Braime, it does not follow that Jonsa is the only alternative epic romance available. It’s possible to make that argument, sure, but it’s not an argument that’s pursued here; instead we just assume “if not-Braime, then-Jonsa.” Faultless logic.

Watch out for those sneaky assumptions.

If it’s the case that the only reason to have two Stark sisters is so “Jon’s relationship with them can be markedly different,” what pray tell is the rationale for having three Tyrell brothers? Which one of them is Margaery going to marry? I personally think the reason we have two Stark sisters is because they’re interesting and important characters in their own right, but it seems some people disagree. I also think that it’s possible for one person to have “markedly different relationships” with two others without assuming "ok, platonic vs romantic relationship” but maybe that’s just me.

I don’t actually hate all Jonsas or think they’re all delusional. This one for instance seems perfectly rational. I do think their reputation for slaying the whole fandom with their amazing metas is overblown, though; and I’m not talking about specific Jonsas here just the reputation of the shippers in general. I don’t think it holds up. I think logic is about reasoning from evidence to a conclusion, and the Jonsas go about it backwards.

[ginmo]

I’ve seen people say that while they admit that there are romantic feelings on both sides for JB, they don’t think they’ll ever be together romantically or sexually. Someone said that their relationship is about honour and duty and that Jaime will probably knight Brienne and then return to Cersei (they specified, ‘but as an enemy’). Another said that they prefer for Jaime to be alone if he survives this ordeal bc he needs to heal from his toxic relationship. Can you counter this? :(

Of course I can because that argument completely ignores the point/message of Brienne’s character lol. You cannot read her chapters and come away with that take, unless you truly are dense af. 

I’m going to be linking to some of Chicky’s “organized rants.”

Jaime and Brienne is a love story. (

Their individual character arcs involve honor and duty but there’s also a huge emphasis on love. I don’t know why anti arguments act as if the author is writing just one theme. I would say, “this isn’t a YA series” but even YA novels have more complexity than what people reduce Martin’s writing to.

I mean… love is a central theme to both of their characters. They are both ultimately driven by love, and they both have parallel arcs that juggle the relationship between love and honor, exploring how they relate and interfere. I’m not going to go into much detail though, because it has been done a million times, but I’ll speak a bit about the love aspect. 

Brienne felt unworthy of being a lady because of the mockery she endured as a woman. So, after falling in love with Renly and “the bitter tears she shed the night her king wed Margaery Tyrell,” she left Tarth to be a knight in his KG, because that was the only way she could marry him. Brienne doesn’t reject being a lady because she hates the idea of it, she ran away because she felt she couldn’t be one. She wasn’t willing to settle for some dumbass who treats her like dirt, so she clung to her more masculine traits and used them to get ahead and be beside a man who treated her with respect and kindness. She was… literally introduced to the readers (and viewers of the show) on a romantic rejection plot line…………… 

And yet, when Renly cut away her torn cloak and fastened a rainbow in its place, Brienne of Tarth did not look unfortunate. Her smile lit up her face, and her voice was strong and proud as she said, “My life for yours, Your Grace. From this day on, I am your shield, I swear it by the old gods and the new.” The way she looked at the king—looked down at him, she was a good hand higher, though Renly was near as tall as his brother had been—was painful to see.- ACOK

Brienne was on her feet as well. “Your Grace, give me but a moment to don my mail. You should not be without protection.” King Renly smiled. “If I am not safe in the heart of Lord Caswell’s castle, with my own host around me, one sword will make no matter … not even your sword, Brienne. Sit and eat. If I have need of you, I’ll send for you.” His words seemed to strike the girl harder than any blow she had taken that afternoon. “As you will, Your Grace.” Brienne sat, eyes downcast.- ACOK

Brienne dropped to her knees. “If I must part from Your Grace, grant me the honor of arming you for battle.” Catelyn heard someone snigger behind her. She loves him, poor thing, she thought sadly. She’d play his squire just to touch him, and never care how great a fool they think her. - ACOK

Like Brienne, Jaime left his role as heir out of love, to have a chance to be by Cersei’s side as a member of Robert’s KG. Do I even need to go into Jaime being a serious romantic and love being at his core?

I will quote this tweet from @usefulspinster every time this is brought up because it honestly can’t be put any better. 

“GRRM has a character for who love has been a cruel joke and one that takes love very seriously and pointed them at eachother. If you don’t understand how that’ll play out, I can’t help you.”

And I’m going to say this for the millionth time: 

GRRM literally said his intent with their relationship was to take the traditional format of Beauty and the Beast (A ROMANCE) and switch the roles and genders. 

“But he is subverting it by making it platonic” 

Except… no… because MAKING BATB PLATONIC DEFEATS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT. He is subverting it by switching the roles and genders, something that is never explored with this tale. THAT’S subversion. He isn’t changing the theme and message of the tale. FFS, subverting doesn’t mean changing the entire core. 

BatB as platonic DOESN’T WORK. The core of the tale is about being ROMANTICALLY DESIRED AND TRULY LOVED despite your appearance. Not, “you can make a good friend even if your’e ugly! :D” because uh…  when they do form a relationship with someone, they often remain as just friends anyway because of their appearance???? lmfao fuck. 

Brienne’s problem isn’t focused on making friends. She had her father, Catelyn, Pod, even to an extent Hyle. They didn’t look at her and scream and run away, never being friendly. In her POV she isn’t sitting there reflecting on how she is so friendless and all she wants is a bff. You know what’s constantly repeated over and over again in her chapters? Her romantic undesirability because of how ugly she is. Oh wow that sounds kinda like… I DUNNO?! THE CORE OF BATB? 

(Not only that but one of GRRM’s is actually a romantic and one of his favorite fantasies is BatB. He even had a television called BEAUTY AND THE BEAST and he was angry that he had to kill off the woman because it ruined his romance story.)   

Anyone who has read her chapters, and isn’t lying about reading them, can see that she’s head over heels in love with Jaime. 

Now, read the bet and tell me romance isn’t a part of her arc. 

“yet now…” 

We’re hit over the head with it so often that it’s impossible to miss.

People who don’t see the romance arc are either a) choosing not see it because it ruins their headcanons or ships or b) Brienne isn’t the typical character to have a romance arc that’s serious and isn’t there for comedic relief. She’s ugly and a female warrior and people are conditioned to see those types of characters as either love-less out of choice, or having romance not even come up for them. It also plays into the whole “love weakens a strong female character” bullshit, and they don’t even realize that’s what’s happening because for most people it’s unconscious. 

The seeds for the Jaime and Brienne relationship trajectory are found in both of their POV chapters, but at least half of the JB relationship is explored through Brienne’s chapters. The laughable out-of-context meta you see is from antis who have other motives, have lied about reading her POVs carefully because boring, and some even admitted to not reading Brienne’s POVs at all.

[janiedean]

For the body parts if you’re still doing it. Jaime and Brienne? As individuals this time.

sure!

jaime

Headcanon: I can muster a cogent argument for why it would make more sense or make for a better story if this were the case

it’s a crime against humanity he couldn’t be in his children’s lives because he’d have been great at it (surely better than cersei/robert anyway) and if grrm ever gives him the chance to have another go at it he’d thrive tbh please let him have it

Heartcanon: I don’t have a particular rationale for why this ought to be the case, I just like to imagine it’s true because it gives me the warm fuzzies

at least show verse because of the dyslexia but I think book verse could work too, tyrion totally read him things out loud when they were kids I have NO CANON BASIS TECHNICALLY FOR IT BUT I JUST FEEL LIKE IT HAPPENED OKAY

Gutcanon: it’s not that I actively want this to be the case – it just unaccountably feels like it should be

I don’t feel like he’s gonna be the valonqar anymore but if it was the case... well, I don’t want him to be like let him be free and not have any more c-related trauma

Junkcanon: I like to imagine it’s true because it gives me the other kind of warm fuzzies

there’s nothing more I want to hc when it comes to jaime lannister and nfsw headcanons that nothing gets better for him than being with someone who’ll top him very lovingly and very intently while giving him all of their attention and taking their time with and not slipping out of the bed after (or making him slip out of the bed after) period

Spleencanon: I insist that this is the case specifically to spite the author, because, like, fuck you, sir or madam

I have absolutely nothing to say to grrm but to the fandom: he paid in spades for throwing bran out of that window and he regrets it canonically, having done that doesn’t make him a bad person who deserves to die and who doesn’t have remorse for it bye

brienne:

Headcanon: I can muster a cogent argument for why it would make more sense or make for a better story if this were the case

she’s actually a very good dancer, the problem is that no one ever lets her do it because we know why But she also would be better at leading than following *cough* actually she doesn’t necessarily hate feminine things ie wearing dresses or sewing it’s just that she’s bad at it and people make her feel like shit for it, but the moment anyone wouldn’t ridicule her for it she wouldn’t mind wearing a dress or dancing or the likes

Heartcanon: I don’t have a particular rationale for why this ought to be the case, I just like to imagine it’s true because it gives me the warm fuzzies

she has a good singing voice except that she never uses it and she absolutely go for it if she gets enough self-confidence to go there

Gutcanon: it’s not that I actively want this to be the case – it just unaccountably feels like it should be

same as what I said with jb, I don’t want her to have to confront jaime about LS but it will have to happen, and on top of that she’s 99% gonna have to kill her and I don’t want her to go through that trauma too BUT 99% it’s happening

Junkcanon: I like to imagine it’s true because it gives me the other kind of warm fuzzies

the moment she gets together with jaime someone who genuinely loves her, and after she gets over the whole ‘no one will ever want me for me’ phase when it comes to sex, she’d totally be all over them and into doing it every other possible time - listen she’s young and she has needs she totally would

Spleencanon: I insist that this is the case specifically to spite the author, because, like, fuck you, sir or madam

I have zero gripes with grrm I don’t want to spite him in any way he can do what he wants with her tbh he wrote her so well I don’t have anything else to add, but @ the fandom: she’s 100% going to end up with her canon male love interest who is absolutely into her 100% and without worrying about whether they ***deserve*** each other or not and there’s nothing platonic about it or about her feelings bye

[janiedean]

lol no idea about b/ellarke but i'm soo sick of seeing the platonic argument for jb too like even on the show season 6 had ONE b episode but it was so shippy that all my show-only friends who don't even care about the ship were like "such eye-sex, omg" and YET some will say it's platonic lol. that reply was a++

no listen I have a serious, serious, serious problem with the term platonic being attached to a lot of ships in order to deny that they’re romantic but especially with jb I really can’t stand it for a number of reasons and sorry but you touched on a sore point so I might rant at you but:

I’m sick tired of this idea that platonic relationships are inherently *purer* than romantic ones or that two people who are romantically in love with each other and have been written as such should be *platonic* because they somehow work better as friends. now, that’s brought up with m/m ships too, but with f/m ships - where the romance is maybe more expected because it’s the norm - there’s the really irksome habit of saying it when it’s not your typical couple. b/ellarke is an interracial couple with the male lead being half-filipino which is not a typical combination and guess why most of the bashing goes to him, but with jb we go to what is my serious fucking problem with it.

as in: it’s a hot guy and an ugly woman who happens to not be the kind you can turn beautiful with make-up and who is, actually, the stereotype deconstruction of a lot of things with her character type.

what I mean: usually ugly women who aren’t feminine in appearance or manners or who have *male*-coded jobs are lesbians or trans or hate being women and/or have gender issues and if they aren’t they usually go back to their feminine-coded jobs/appearance later (ie, I love eowyn to pieces but she’s hot regardless and her story ends with finding the man of her life and giving the sword up, and mind I ship it with the force of a thousand suns and I love how that story goes because it’s one specific trope tolkien knew what he was doing). brienne is ugly, and she’s also not lesbian or trans nor she hates being a woman nor she has issues with her gender - she happens to dress like a guy and do things guys do (ie: being a knight) because that’s what she’s good at, but she doesn’t resent being a woman, she only resents not having fit into society’s standards to give her father a heir that was either one or the other. she fell for renly because he danced with her without laughing and I have a feeling she wouldn’t have a problem wearing dresses if no one gave her shit for it. brienne is a woman who’s NOT pretty which makes her undesirable by society’s standards (and westeros’ tbh) but at the same time she’s the kind of seventeen year-old who irl would probably write mrs jaime lannister on her diary without realizing jaime writes mr brienne tarth on his, but never mind. and sorry but it’s not a model that’s very popular.

as in: I have weird issues when it comes to personally relating to brienne because I know I’m objectively a lot better looking but I never felt like I was and is2g in every single affc chapter of hers I read there was one flashback where she’d remember something that was the westeros version of shit that happened to me at some point in between elementary and high school. at some point it was creepy how accurate it was. and thing is: it was the first time in my life I actually related to a fictional character that way because at the ripe age of twenty-two I had never run into a female character who was UGLY, straight and not belonging to a romantic or sexual minority and who was never gonna get any prettier and who was also, incidentally, the person with the straightest moral compass in the series pretty much. wow. amazing. and guess what -

she’s also the tangible/possible love interest of a guy who’s a lot hotter than she is, who respects her greatly for her skills, who trusts her because of them and with whom she has a thriving relationship and who doesn’t give two fucks that she’s ugly and who, on top of that, even had not so platonic boners when seeing her naked. now, on her side it’s pretty much canon that she’s in love with jaime and honest I think it’s gonna be clear on his very soon, but like, the thing is that it’s not a dynamic that usually gets this kind of treatment. ugly guys tend to get hot girls, but hot guys always are with ugly girls who suddenly turned beautiful or weren’t really ugly in the first place or have one part of their body that doesn’t look good but are hot regardless, or who are ugly for someone’s standards but not for others. and honestly, I don’t care if people don’t ship it - you can dislike it how you want, no one is obliged to - but going like ‘ah but they’re friends WHY CAN’T THEY BE PLATONIC’ or the everlasting ‘but she’s too ugly for him’ (rotfl jaime is the one person who didn’t give a fuck about his brother being disabled/*ugly* for westeros standards you think he cares about brienne’s looks) is basically denying all over again that if you’re a woman who doesn’t look hot or attractive then you can’t be seen as a romantic or sexual desire object by someone who’s actually hot.

and I’m really fucking tired of that. I mean, I see that shit everywhere also with famous people (like I’ve seen people being shocked that hugh j*ackman’s wife is very average when they’ve been together since forever and they obv love each other??, same as m*isha collins’s wife like ‘oh I’m so surprised she’s really plain couldn’t he do better’) and honestly, from the point of view of someone who really has trouble seeing themselves as as such (because as stated before I really don’t see myself as good looking), having a canon romance where the girl isn’t hot and will never become such and it doesn’t fucking matter because the guy wants her regardless of her fucking attractiveness factor would be really, really refreshing.

but no. they’re friends. they’re comrades. it has to be platonic. can’t be that it’s romantic. you know what, no. it doesn’t have to be platonic. if you see it as such fine, but it can be romantic, there’s literally no reason for it not to be since on brienne’s side it’s basically canon and jaime certainly doesn’t think of her in platonic terms regardless of what he likes to tell himself (I don’t get boners for people I have no attraction to, and given that jaime in general doesn’t feel attracted to people that aren’t his sister maybe that means fucking something) and denying that it can be romantic in this case to me sounds dangerously like ‘but she’s ugly and he’s not so it doesn’t make sense’. yes, because in order to partner with someone you have to be the same level of attractive. yeah, nope.

anyway sorry for the rant but since as stated I have *personal* investment in the ‘can we stop saying ugly girls can’t be sexual or romantic partners’ issue I just really can’t stand this stupid argument especially for jb. especially when they treat it like a romantic relationship is somehow cheapening it. because, spoilers, some of us actually WANT romantic relationships and enjoy the idea and would also not mind some X-rated activity thrown in the mix and saying that this whole thing is somehow less noble than some crappy purity-based relationship where you’re supposed to have deep affinity but be just *friends* and love the soul and all that jazz is frankly a thing that should be deleted from existence.

especially when platonic in theory and in the beginning didn’t even fucking mean that and the sexual component was fundamental in the concept, but never mind that.

ugh, sorry I went on that rant but I really have Issues TM with jb attached to platonic love from people who want to deny at all costs that they have romantic potential rather than just say that it exists but they don’t care for the dynamic.

[janiedean]

i don't mind the rant about platonic jb :D tbh the thing you wrote before reminded me of that horrid article by some fandom-famous person post 6x08 abt how jb is/should be platonic and how shipping it's fine bt it's really just projection & i remember feeling SO angry about the whole thing, i never replied, bt there were a bunch who wrote some amazing replies, and basically yeah, as someone who's forever annoyed that "not pretty girls" always have a makeover and become pretty in fiction i get it

I REMEMBER THAT ARTICLE I WANTED TO DO UNSPEAKABLE HORRIBLE THINGS TO THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT SINCE IT WAS PLATONIC IT WAS PURER AND DEEPER like fuck you person no it’s not and no one cares. 

but like pass me the slight OMG BUT REPRESENTATION moment - like I usually don’t go there but given that brienne is the one character I felt somehow fully represented by in my life and given that I read more than average it says a lot about how many ugly girls like that exist in mainstream lit... I mean, guys, ugly girls who happen to be straight and have eyes and would like to bang guys exist and even if you’re not ugly as long as you’re not standard attractive you will get told a lot of crap on the topic and how you will never get a boyfriend if you don’t use make-up or omg you’re so plain or ugly sorry will never consider you as a gf and shit like that. you know how nice would it be if for once the ugly girl who doesn’t get the extreme makeover gets the hot guy and her looks aren’t what matters in the entire scheme because she’s amazing on her own and who cares if others don’t get it, the guy she wants gets it?

christ, if only I had read that story as much as the extreme makeover one. never mind that I also hate the ‘but she has hyle, why should she be with jaime she’s too good for him he doesn’t deserve her argument’, because.... yeaaaah uhm hyle might be as repented as you want but he still tried to bang her for a bet and I can 100% assure you that after you have that happen to you you definitely don’t want to have anything to do with that guy again (BEEN THERE DONE THAT) and like, she’s into jaime. why the fuck should she settle for some guy she doesn’t want like that because he’s not good enough for her or shit like that? everyone’s good enough for the people into them. if she wants to be with jaime and grrm decides that it’s a thing then she should be with jaime, not with whoever else is into her just because according to you he’s not morally worthy or smth.

god I hate both those arguments sfm