#it's like when people say 'afab genitals' to mean vagina and I'm like well I have a cock. what now

[tornprince]

I think I've made basically this same post before but. Occasionally on dating apps I'll see profiles that say they're looking for someone AFAB using that language specifically and you can tell they just mean someone who has a vagina and looks basically "womany" by their standards. And as a completely passing trans man who's had bottom surgery a part of me always wants to message them and when they inevitably aren't interested in me just be like "huh. But I'm AFAB that's what you wanted :/"

[frenchkisstheabyss]

♡SKZ React to Finding Out About Your Piercing In A…Certain Area♡

♡ I couldn't ask for a more unique assortment of requests to be sent my way. I love creating content for you guys. Thank you @lieslovefantasy for the request & I hope you find comfort in it ♡

♡ Pairings: ot8!skz x fem!afab!reader

♡ Genre: fluffy/suggestive

♡ Summary: You're nervous to tell the guy you're dating about your genital piercing, fearful of what he might say, but his actual reaction surprises you...

Warnings: This entire post focuses on genital piercings (nothing graphic or detailed) but if convos about vaginas make you uncomfortable then this isn't the post for you. There's also expression of sexual urges but this contains zero sexual contact ♡

I'm not a pierced gal but, if you're at all curious about it, you can find a guidebook here put together by a pro who's been doing it for ages. Stay safe babes

There's a spicier version here ♡

♡ Han's reaction can only be described as utter confusion. He hears what you're saying but it takes him a minute to process what you actually mean. None of this is because he finds it weird or unattractive that you got pierced. It's just that, up until this conversation, he didn't even know you could do that. He's genuinely fascinated though and, after a minute or so, he's staring at you with this wholesome curiosity in his eyes, like you're some work of art, eager to learn all there is to know about this new detail that makes the girl he's falling for even more interesting than she already is ♡

♡ Seungmin's convinced that you're joking. It's not unusual for you guys to say the most random thing that pops into your head just to see how the other will react so he decides to call your bluff, asking to see it since you really have it. You show him with no hesitation, holding your breath in anticipation of the usual smart ass comment leaving his lips and making you wish you hadn't told him, only it doesn't. Instead of saying something off the wall, he compliments your choice of jewelry and tells you how well it suits you. Yes, it's true that he typically takes great joy in being a pain in the ass about things but when it comes to you and your body he never wants you to question how loved it is by him ♡

♡ Felix senses right away that you're worried sick about how he'll feel. Interlocking his fingers with yours, he plants soft kisses along the back of your hand. He smiles at you, warm and gentle, assuring you that there's nothing you need to be nervous about. While he's absolutely clueless when it comes to piercings like this, it doesn't make him view you any differently than he already did. You're still the same charming, intelligent, funny girl that he has been and will always be obsessed with. Whenever you're comfortable showing it to him he'll be giddy about having the chance to see it. There's no doubt in his mind that he'll find it as beautiful as he does the rest of you ♡

♡ I.N has this friend who's best friends with a girl whose older brother's girlfriend got the same piercing as you which naturally means that, through information passed down to him, he's basically an expert on the topic. One thing though, he heard it doesn't really hurt. Something something about adrenaline. Is that true? How'd it feel? He apologizes, cuddling up to you, figuring you probably don't want to have flashbacks of that part. Either way, adrenaline high or not, he thinks you're so cool for getting it done. It's a decision that takes a lot of courage and knowledge of your identity to get done which he admires. You are, without a doubt, the most badass girl he's ever dated ♡

♡ Hyunjin has actually seen female genital piercings before. An artist friend of his did a photo series on it last summer meant to educate people on the 1001 different reasons that women choose to get them done. For some of them it had cultural or personal significance, for others, it was a spur of the moment decision they made simply because they wanted to do it. Which one is it for you? You don't have to tell him if you aren't ready but, if you choose to, you'll have his undivided attention and he'll cherish every word that leaves your lips the same way he always does. The fact that the two of you have gotten to the point that you feel safe enough to be this vulnerable has him getting low key sentimental ♡

♡ Lee Know isn't trying to be a perv or anything. He just doesn't understand how you could feel nervous about telling him something that's so insanely fucking hot. From what he's learned from 5 minutes of intently scrolling the internet, there's a chance that your piercing would make intimacy far more sensitive for you than it is for the average woman. That mischievous grin on his face says that he's more than willing to help you test it out if you haven't already. You roll your eyes when he throws out the idea that maybe he should get one too. He insists that his pain threshold is more than adequate to make getting it no big deal. After being reminded that it's not a competition, he calms down, his mind drifting back to how much fun it'll be to experiment with yours ♡

♡ Bang Chan admittedly has a hard time switching out of dad mode sometimes, often forgetting that he's with you and not his members. His instinct to make sure you're alright has him asking you how your healing went, how the experience was for you overall, and if there's anything he should or shouldn't do when you're being intimate that way he can make sure you only feel pleasure when the two of you are together. As touching as it is that he cares so much, you're a big girl and you feel safe enough with him to express your needs when they come up. You kiss him, promising him everything's fine but you'll let him know if anything changes, and he snaps out of it. He may be prone to worrying but it's only because you're so crazy important to him ♡

♡ Changbin's hugging you from behind when you tell him and this admission only makes him hug you tighter. He kisses your cute lil cheek and throws out a casual, "Oh...nice." It kind of breaks your brain that he's so unphased by finding this out. In the past when you've told people there's been some sort of reaction but you're pretty sure you'd get a stronger reaction out of him if you asked what he wanted for dinner. You question if that's all he has to say and he just shrugs, feeling that there's nothing else to say. He adores everything about the way that you express yourself externally. From the way you do your makeup and hair to the way you dress, he's always drooling over whatever you do. Anything you add to that wonderful base you have is just a bonus ♡

[genderkoolaid]

No one is denying that menstrual & reproductive care suck because of misogyny. Women are not the only ones who experience misogyny, and not using the term "women" does not mean misogyny is being denied or not discussed. No one here is saying the getting rid of "women's care" will stop misogyny, we are saying that using the term "women's care" is using vague, often flowery language to avoid facing directly with uteri & vaginas, and can also be connected to the idea that the uterus is the most important part of "women's" bodies and therefore all of "women's" issues can be boiled down to the uterus. By ending this vague language, it forces us to acknowledge that uteri and vaginas are not impolite or obscene. Menstruation shouldn't have to be spoken about through innuendo, we should be able to talk about it frankly without worrying someone will act like you're discussing hardcore porn. That's why it benefits cis women: without gender to serve as a code for genitals, we have to talk about the genitals themselves and end the culture of silence around uteri & vaginas & their functions. You are misinterpreting this post by assuming we believe that changing the language will get rid of misogyny. I am absolutely certain @transmascissues knows that the thing he is describing is a product of misogyny, and I think he just put it in a somewhat sloppy way. The idea of "trans people erasing women" should never be given any validity in any context.

This is post is also not saying "[cis] women are making it all about themselves", and that's not a good-faith interpretation of this post. The reason we don't often talk about men's healthcare expanding to include trans men is because "women's healthcare" is generally code for uterine healthcare, and trans men have uteri that we need taken care of. Trans men don't (currently) have prostates we need checked. Prostate checks should not be "men's healthcare" either; prostate checks are important for women and others with prostates as well. The point is, gendering the healthcare of genitals is /bad/. It hurts trans people. We need to use terms like "uterine care" and not "women's care" because more than women have uteri, and if you are a doctor who's entire job is centered around caring for uteri, you aren't a "woman's doctor", because other genders need uterine care too.

"Men" and "women's" healthcare may be useful as more general concepts, especially when discussing the negative impacts of gender roles. But when it comes to needing care for specific body parts, we should always use gender-neutral language because a person of any gender can have any body part. Trans people die because of gendered healthcare; for example, people are denied coverage for certain procedures because they changed their legal gender. There was a trans man, Robert Ead, who died of cervical cancer because multiple doctors refused to treat him. Inclusive language obviously wouldn't get rid of medical transphobia, but it would greatly improve many things.

I don't want to assume your intent, but the way you are talking is heavily reminding me of classic radical feminists beliefs that inclusion that is vital for trans people is dangerous to cis women. It is not assumed that "women’s healthcare will disappear to be a repository for all medical care that isn’t for cis men, and then no one will have to think about how misogyny affects healthcare for women"; we need healthcare to stop being gendered to save & improve trans lives.

This as a response to trans people's need for inclusive healthcare (especially trans men & trans people who were AFAB) is frankly uncomfortable to hear. Positioning trans liberation as something which will harm cis women (/benefit cis men) is radical feminist transphobic rhetoric. I'm assuming that this is not your intent given that you are clearly trying to be inclusive to trans people. But your interpretation of this post very much falls echoes the beliefs of TERFs in some concerning ways: assuming that we are ignorant of systematic misogyny and think removing the word women will fix it, and assuming things that are vital to the health of trans people are putting cis women in danger.

Additionally, a big reason why you don't hear men's healthcare or men's spaces being discussed in relation to trans inclusion is because there is more cis paranoia around needing to preserve the idea of "woman" than there is the idea of men. Manhood functions on attacking any man/"man" who fails at being a man, but women are a resource and therefore that resource needs to be protected (& for radfems, they follow a kind of "female nationalism" and feel the need to protect the idea of "woman" for nationalistic reasons). Trans people are constantly portrayed as predators towards women & dangerous to women, by radfems and conservatives alike, because positioning a (male/male-coded) enemy as a threat to one's women (resources) is an ancient tactic for encouraging violence against an enemy. It's not that trans women don't also suffer from being denied prostate checks, or that trans men don't struggle with entrance into men's spaces. Cis people are the ones who are hyperfixated on "protecting women" and so we are constantly having to argue about womanhood and women's spaces and women's health.

Additionally, I want to address this tag:

#its still gonna be womens healthcare when women are seeking it

Women aren't the only ones seeking uterine and vaginal care, so it is not "women's healthcare", its uterine and vaginal care. The body parts are what is most relevant (and they are body parts whose care is directly impacted by misogyny).

btw the term “women’s health” to discuss uterine care/menstruation isnt just transphobic, it also keeps up this aggravating idea that the uterus & menstruation are obscene and impolite and need to be kept hidden under flowery vague terms as to not offend any cis men. like trans people demanding the end of gendered language around this stuff aren’t just helping trans people, its also just good to normalize calling tampons and pads “menstrual supplies” because thats what they fucking are!!! we should say the words uterus vagina menstruation and we should do it in public and in stores instead of talking about ~women’s needs~ and ~feminine care~. trans liberation is fundamental to women’s liberation and anti-patriarchal action in general. listening to trans men & people isn’t bad for women its good for literally everyone

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

Hey. I have a genuine question about trans people, if thats ok? I promise I'm not trying to be transphobic when I ask this, but I am very tired and google isnt making much sense. I know that, in a very broad sense, a trans person is someone who doesn't identify with their gender. But in this case what is the difference between gender and sex? Up until now I've understood sex as female/male/intersex and gender as man/woman/nb, is that wrong? I offer you a jar full of the Void as a thanks for your time

hi anon,

I really appreciate that you sent this question, because it feels like a very well-meaning case of "and at this point I'm too afraid to ask" and I'm always happy to be a space that addresses questions that might be hard to bring up anywhere else. let's do our best to get you a satisfying answer!

so first off, we need to do a little work on your understanding of trans people.

actually... hmm. okay, first, we need to talk about gender and make sure that we're on the same page. while past decades used "gender" pretty much interchangeably with "biological sex/genitalia" (and some people still do use gender that way - think of gender reveal parties, for instance) many modern discourses understand gender as something largely or entirely separate from one's reproductive organs, instead using "gender" to refer to a complex cocktail of societal factors that includes their self-perception, personal presentation, expectations of others and society at large, and the degree to which they feel they do or don't fit into feminine/masculine binaries.

here, let me keep it real simple. this is the definition of gender that we use for my 4th through 6th grade classes: "a person's feeling or sense, in their mind or heart, of whether they are a boy or girl, man or woman, a combination of both, or neither."

obviously not a perfectly all-encompassing definition because a.) I doubt there's any definition of gender that could make everyone on god's green earth happy and b.) it's written for people who are more concerned with Warriors Cats than queer theory, but it's as good a starting point as any. for this discussion, at least, gender is referring to an internal sense of self rather than anything about one's physical body.

okay, NOW we can return to your understanding of trans folks as "someone who doesn't identify with their gender." it would be much much more accurate to say that the majority of trans people don't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. we live in a society(TM) where brand new babies generally either get popped out of the womb and promptly assigned either male/boy/blue blanket or female/girl/pink blanket (hence the terms AMAB and AFAB - assigned male at birth and assigned female at birth, respectively) on the basis of their genitalia, and both categories tend to come with a heap of expectations no matter how hard the parents try, because we are all a bunch of fish swimming in centuries of silly made up rules about how boys and girls should behave and that's difficult to circumnavigate entirely unless you raise your sweet gender neutral infant alone in a bugout bunker somewhere in the woods.

(worth mentioning at this point, since you already mentioned intersex people and we're going to get there eventually: babies who are born with genitals that are perfectly healthy but don't fall neatly into either the "penis" or "vagina" category frequently have their genitals surgically altered very soon after birth, frequently without the parents' knowledge or consent, to make those infants fall more neatly into one of those boxes. this is done on the assumption that those infants will live easier lives if they are more easily able to be sorted into one of to genital-based binary genders. many intersex adults and advocacy groups consider this to be a Very Bad decision, which I wholeheartedly agree with.)

okay, so, trans people. "transgender" is a very broad category which can encompass many different kinds of people, but the general unifying factor is that trans folks took a gander at the gender they were assigned at birth and said "hmm I think not, actually." some transition from male to female or female to male, some invent a jazzy brand new gender, some jettison the whole concept altogether, some can occasionally fuck with the gender they were assigned at birth but only every other month and on the full moon. point being, most trans people are actually, like, fine with their gender, it just happens to be different than the gender that their parents/doctors/society tried to give them when they were born.

that can be a lot to understand, but here's the most important part: when someone tells you what their gender is, assume that they're the expert. not their parents/doctors/society. them. they know who they are and what they want to be, and the least the rest of us can do is use the terminology/name/pronouns/etc that they would prefer.

hopefully by this point the difference between gender and sex/genitalia is pretty obvious - your "sex" or genitals are but one of many features on your inescapable human meatsuit, and your gender is a complicated internal vortex. absolutely any person of any gender identity can have any sort of genitalia, and could feel any kind of way about it. that's generally not going to be any of your business, unless you are a particular trans person's a.) healthcare provider or b.) sexual partner.

now, about those female/male/intersex and man/woman/nonbinary triptychs - I would love to problematize those, if I could take another moment of your time.

right off the bat, I would recommend unlearning the urge to classify any genitals as "male" or "female." for better or worse, those are words that are extremely tied to gender, and most trans men, for instance, won't love being told they have "female genitalia" (especially if they've gone to all the trouble of getting phalloplasty, oof), most nonbinary people don't want to be told they have the genitals of any gender they don't identify with, etc. sex educators and healthcare provider like myself have been doing a tremendous amount of work in recent years to neutralize our language and make it more inclusive, so that rather than needlessly gendering someone's genitalia we can just talk about body parts as they are. if you need to refer to a group it's fine to say, for instance, "people with ovaries" or "people with prostates." strongly encourage that, good stuff.

also: while we should absolutely recognize that there is more diversity in genitalia than the two most widely known penis and vagina configurations, classifying intersex conditions as their own discrete third category is something I would be careful about. first off, the term "intersex" encompasses several different conditions, so referring to someone's genitalia as "intersex" doesn't really convey anything useful about their body parts - especially since some intersex conditions only impact chromosomes and cause no particularly noticeable difference in the genitals, which could look exactly like those of a perisex person (perisex = not intersex) and thus be indistinguishable from "male" or "female" genitalia.

there's as much diversity of gender among intersex people as any other population - there are trans intersex people, cis intersex people, nonbinary intersex people, and so on. as with any other group, the best to talk about their body parts is without presumption and using whatever language they'd prefer, rather than assuming you know how it ought to be classified.

treating "nonbinary" as a stable third gender category likewise has issues - what being nonbinary actually means and looks like can vary WILDLY between the people who fall into that category. many people who find the existing gender binary stifling, harmful, oppressive, or otherwise not very fun actively rebuke the idea of that sort of neat classification, and are actively disheartened by the idea of all of their effort to challenge that binary resulting in the creation of a trinary with a third category that's exactly as rigidly defined as the other two. some of us - hi, it's me - want nothing more than to exist in an ambiguous space beyond easy categorization.

tl;dr while it's great and necessary to acknowledge that bodies and people can't all be put neatly into two opposite boxes, the answer isn't necessarily to conceptualize a new, third box to plunk all of the outliers into.

I appreciate the jar of Void, which my cat will probably be knocking over shortly, and I hope this clarifies things for you.

[obey-me-headquarters]

dropping in quickly to ramble about my thoughts on afab/amab and gender neutrality before i go write graphic ovi and pass out

people sometimes say "gender neutral" when they mean "ambiguous genitals" - an AFAB reader who doesn't go by she/her or he/him is still technically gender neutral, although it still warrants tagging.

not to be crass in your inbox but as long as you don't specifically say "clit" or "penis" or "vagina" or a euphemism for one of the three that can't apply to features every human has (like "arousal" or "sex" or "hole" etc.), then you're effectively being gender neutral.

ofc when you think about the details, it implies a lot of anal (although generally you keep that ambiguous too, so it can apply to either orifice), which has like omegaverse mpreg energy etc. but skhdfglkhg i'm here for porn not realism.

Huh, that's a really good point 🤔 Nb people can still identify with a reader that has a pussy or dick. I just like to remain as Ambiguous as possible because I know some trans people, or people with trauma, don't like reading about readers who has a dick/pussy, and I try to be inclusive to everybody so anybody and everybody can enjoy my writing!

Also. Elseie. I absolutely love how you said "not to be crass" when there is graphic ovi porn written by you in my inbox lol. I run a porn blog, be as crass as ya like lol

I usually don't write the reader getting off, because 1) I haven't found a good way to write it while being ambiguous. But I do like tbe suggestions of being Vague. Although I found that I kinda suck at writing that and it can across as kinda stilted. 2) I am here to dom and fuck the characters. I do not have Time to write about myself/the reader getting off, Luci needs to get fucked by tentacles, Mammon needs his million orgasms, Levi needs to overstimulated by vibratos, and Belphie needs to be eaten out.

My original thought process when Ovi was brought up was "Well. How will someone with a dick carry the eggs? They still need to go to the bathroom right?" But you are right we're here for porn not realism lol.

[delusion-of-negation]

I think genitalia talk should only belong to the person who's subject to it, their treating physician, and potentially any intimate partners IF it's of relevance. I think all transphobes and LGBTA-phobes have really taken too large of a step into the private body business of... ANYONE (even cis people), where they feel entitled to name your body parts and tell you who you are and what to do with them. It's fucking gross, and I hate how people have to justify their genetics because of some AHoles

prev ask [edit: re that ask, different anon]

what I said was "I prefer “people who have vaginas” to afab, if vagina is pertinent information", and I said that I think that "the difference is that t3rfs don’t use it like that, they use words like “penis-haver” to evoke dysphoria in the individual, and at times where the penis or lack thereof isn’t pertinent and/or might not even be the case", and my example of a situation where it would become pertinent to say a part or function "you’re talking about prostate cancer, well then “men” and “amab” might not actually cover every person you’re talking about", along with pregnancy. specifically, going up to a person and being like "you sir look like one of them there penis-havers to me" is weird, but when you're saying "I'm starting up a charity to help [blank] spot the warning signs of prostate cancer" I think that "people with prostates" will include all relevant parties better than "amab" or "men" would. I literally explained that I think this because neither assigned sex nor gender will cover all bases for me, and there are others who also won't be covered by one or the other. if you're referring to it being inappropriate for t3rfs to call folks "vagina/penis-havers", I agree with you, but if you're talking about what I said then that's really a mischaracterisation of what I'm proposing. there isn't an appropriate, pertinent moment to refer to someone's genitals in most irl casual conversation, it will mostly come up re health, or other accomodations, social issues, etc. so I'm not suggesting a person ask invasive questions or act out of your comfort, but I'd rather situations where it is pertinent not dance around it with a prettying of language because we find the word penis icky, then exclude people who need certain medical options because they aren't included in whatever euphemism we've used, because it's just a fact that you won't cover everyone with a penis and you're going to include some people without if you just say "men" or if you just say "amab". in interpersonal conversation there's rarely going to be situations where you need to use language like that, where you need to be precise and totally inclusive of a specific demographic, nobody calls their friend who identifies as a chick and is afab and prefers femme words "birthing person", instead of "mother", but the hospital might need to specify a ward that's for pregnant people giving birth is a "birthing person ward" so a potential trans man parent won't get security called on him, and won't have it denied by insurance, and won't face complications because staff are aware and appropriately trained and the whole system isn't designed to exclude him. it's pretty basic stuff tbh.

that said, seeing invasive genital questions as weirder than other invasive body part questions is a cultural thing that I think we should move away from - by which I mean, similar to the anal sex thing where I said that you should ask before any type of sex (rather than "piv is 'normal' so it's safe to assume that, but you should ask with anal because it's 'abnormal'" like that weird ass post was basically saying), you shouldn't pry past people's comfort zones with any body part, and it's always important to make sure people are comfy in the discussion and have the space to tell you if they're not (within reason, obviously "I'm not comfortable with you saying 'please help I need an ambulance' so stop this prying conversation" is a different situation).

[nervoustragedyluminary]

Absolutely this too thanks for adding, they also erase enbyphobia /ceterosexism/exorsexism and Gnc phobia and butchphobia

Editing to add:

"transwomen" /"transmen" without the space because terfs don't acknowledge trans women as women or trans men as men it's a dogwhistle to "you're not really a woman /man" & an example of that "I'm not touching you I'm not touching you!" bigotry - the point is to put enough plausible deniablility for other cis people; "whoopsie I forgot the space Omg trans people are SO sensitive look at how they're making a big deal of not putting a space there I'm not even calling them subhuman[yet]?! " but imagine you see someone only ever typing "Lesbianwoman/en" instead of "lesbian woman/en" & going on to say stuff like "lesbianwomen are lesbianwomen & straight women are women"? it's that same idea that trans women can only be "transwomen" & not "trans women" or "women who happen to be trans /women with trans experience /history " it's a dogwhistle to the speaker about not viewing trans women as women and seeing cis women as "real" women. Ditto for "transmen" instead of "trans men"

TIM /TIF /TRA "trans identified male/female" or "trans rights activist" [Derogatory] mostly well known acronyms at this point that basically ammount to "you're a male/female but you iDeNtIfY as trans" - calling trans women "males" and trans men "females". "TRA" is an attempt to equate trans people with cis MRAs & comes from the false belief that trans rights are driven by cis MRAs in order to end feminism (they equate trans women with cis MRAs and trans men with cis women "honeybadgers" /supporters of MRA BS & claim that trans women are just pretending to be women in order to "steal/hijack" the feminist movement it's basically like the great replacement conspiracy but substituting cis women for white people who are apparently "in danger of being replaced" ) and some even claim that the existence of trans people is part of "the great replacement" & will veer into antisemitic conspiracies about Jewish people creating/controlling media/pornography in order to "trans" people to "destroy western civilisation /the family" this is usually where the terf to tradfem/alt-right pipeline comes in

DSDs or "disorders of sexual development" when talking about intersex people they will often refuse to use the widely accepted non-dehumanising term "intersex" & instead call them "DSDs/DSD males/females" because in terf ideology intersex people are seen as inherently "disordered" & any "correction" [Genital mutilation medical abuse and CSA] is thus justified as "normalising them for their own good" all intersex people are pushed into a category of either "male /female" & Intersex people who refuse and refute this categorisation are rejected mocked and harassed as being "part of the problem"

"genetic/biological male/female" - same idea as calling trans women "males" or "TIMs" & trans men "females" or "TIFs" with added dehumanisation of implying that trans people aren't "biological" cis women are referred to as "Biological/genetic females" & cis men are referred to as "Biological/genetic males" basically they mean "real women/men" but they think that using the words "biological" /"genetic" makes them sound more scientific in their bigotry and dehumanisation... See also 'bio vaginas/breasts'

"handmaidens" - any cis woman or trans man or assumed 'afab' person who speaks out against transmisogyny or for trans rights in general- equating allies of trans women to the MRA "honeybadgers" group with added sexualisation and completely misunderstanding the handmaid's tale because terfs love victim blaming survivors even fictional ones. In the minds of terfs the trans liberation movement is lead /controlled by trans women and zero trans men or trans neutrals - they erase trans liberation figures who are trans men transneutral and nonbinary and will assign them as either trans women or trans men & use their sexist stereotypes of "males/females" accordingly ;so a trans woman or people they categorise such who speaks out about trans liberation is presented by terfs as "entitled delusional angry violent male who is dominating & needs to be brought back in line" & trans men or people terfs categorise as such are presented as "hysterical delusional female who is betraying us& doesn't understand what she's doing and needs to be brought back in line" - this isn't the be all and end all of how they talk about trans women and trans men and other trans people they force into those categories just a simplified overview & as with everything there is nuance and contradiction basically the "point" is that trans people can't "win" it's like the Madonna /wh*re dichotomy"(I've seen it called the "baby/predator" dichotomy in Anti-Transmasculinity & transandrophobia discussions) depending on if they think they can "convert" you or not, they'll be more overtly hostile if they judge you as someone not vulnerable to their grooming & more likely to try infantalising & "lovebombing" you if they think they can "convert" you.

"compelled speech" /"asking me not to misgender trans people is compelled speech"

Afabmisogyny - terf attempt to twist discussions of transandrophobia and misogyny to being about "'afabs' are all oppressed by 'amabs' and all have a shared universal experience that amabs could never understand" they'll use this to group trans men and people they presume to be afab with cis women as a unified group being oppressed by 'amabs' grouping trans women and cis men together ad an oppressor class- enbies and intersex people are forced into one of these binaries/erased/ignored as usual in radfem rhetoric

Some TERF DOGWHISTLES TO BE AWARE OF:

"sex class /sex based class" analysis that ignores and erases intersexism and transmisogyny in favour of equating trans women with cis men (misgendering)

"male supremacy" - and assuming (the small minority of) trans women who are awful to other trans people are that way because they are some kind of crypto MRAs and not just radfems and or assholes in their own right. Any harmful behaviour done by a trans woman is immediately assigned to "male supremacy"

"AMAB supremacy" just the same as calling trans women "male supremacists" & equating them to cis men and cis men MRAs - terfs seem to think that this is a way to get their "trans women are MRAs" shite past our BS detectors

"male socialisation" - especially when talking about (mischarecterising for grooming purposes ) intracommunity trans issues eg "trans women dOmInAtE and oppress trans men and trans spaces due to their male socialisation /experiences being raised as boys & trans men are demure in spaces and unwilling to speak up against the mean domineering trans women because of female socialisation "

"AFAB solidarity" - "trans men are my sisters (in the fight against the eevil trans women) " rebranded

[bitchesgetriches]

Explanatory note for the "I don't know why they they use 'people with a vagina' and don't just use AFAB/AMAB" anon - I can actually answer this! I work in a content department for a big organisation and was on the board panel we had to discuss which of these terms we would adopt in our corporate messaging. I don't necessarily agree with this answer - I fought the "use AFAB" corner (and lost), but I can at least explain the thought process.

Here were the main arguments:

1) lots of people haven't got a clue what an AFAB is. We spent a good fifteen minutes at the beginning of the meeting explaining to everyone what AFAB meant before the discussion could even start. Everyone knew what a person with a vagina is. We never needed to explain that; everyone *got* it straight away. It may well be (is!) be more inclusive/soft/humanising to use birth assignments, but it's significantly less accessible to people not "in the know" with the terminology. AFAB/AMAB isn't widely understood enough by the general public, or company execs, to be widely understood.

2) there's also definitely a misconception that AFAB means, or implies, "assigned female at birth (incorrectly)" and therefore only applies to trans people. How widespread this is outside of my particular boardroom I'm not sure, but it was definitely something we had to address when a senior exec piped up with "AFAB is a person that the doctors assigned as a female based on her ladybits but they're actually in the wrong body and want to be a man because the doctor couldn't see her heart!". (Direct quote.)

Pleease bear in mind that this wasn't a bigoted old white man (well, okay, he was oldish and white) but this is from a director that was an active sponsor of the whole idea, who regularly put his name, power, and privilege behind minority-advancement or inclusion programmes of all stripes, and actively worked to broaden his horizons and be supportive. And yet his understanding and language still left a lot to be desired. This is - sadly - is par for the course in the world outside our woke Tumblr filter bubbles. (Other criticisms of his 'explanation' I assume are self evident and will not be addressed here).

This all sums up to a belief - founded or otherwise - that if I tell people AFAB that they should, for example, never leave tampons in for more than 12h at a time, there's an important demographic of people with vaginas that aren't receiving this message, either due to not understanding what AFAB means, or believing that they are not an AFAB because they are not trans.

Now look, I get why that's not a good argument, like I said I was on the opposing side and personally, I'm on the side of "this will never change until we all start using inclusive language and make it widespread enough that this doesn't happen", but I do totally understand the position of those in the meantime that say "this isn't widely understood enough, and it's really important that everyone with a vagina understands I'm talking about them".

Hope this helps?

It does! And I appreciate you chiming in. Back when we had the whole debate here on our Tumblr, our conclusion was basically “We, as a couple of cisgender bi/hetero women should a) use whatever vocabulary is most inclusive of our trans, intersex, and nonbinary followers and makes them feel most welcome and comfortable, b) try our best to be as accurate as possible when discussing matters that pertain to peoples’ genitals and sexuality.” In other words, as you’ve pointed out, context is really important. 

So far context has made it really easy to use AFAB/AMAB. If we ever need to be more specific or refer to certain body parts, we will! But it’s also our job to help educate and provide a safe platform for these debates. So I love that you provided more nuance. 

[deadmomjokes]

I need "Mom" advice...I get married in a couple months and honestly I'm nervous about sex. My actual mom never talked to me about it...was taboo. I barely learned about my period, except some friends explained and helped me through it. I'm afraid I won't make my husband happy or it will hurt. I've heard varying stories of friends' first times, and I don't want things to be awkward. I don't even know how to bring it up with my fiancé.

Thank you SO much forfeeling comfortable coming to me! I’ll try to give a basic “sex ed” lessonhere, and if you’re worried about specific things, please feel free to comeback and ask more, or PM me, or send me an ask off anon to ask about email if you’drather do it that way. Whatever’s going to be most helpful for you. I hope Ican address the concerns you listed, and possibly some that might be underlyingin general (most people have a lot of nebulous nervous feelings surroundingphysical intimacy that can be hard to put to words).

(For those uninterested or uncomfortable, a verybig TW for talking about sexual activity in a scientific sort of way, buttechnical terms and (respectful) descriptions may abound.) LOOOOOOOOONG post ahead, but hopefully comprehensive, respectful, and useful.

First Things First I Guess

Firstly, please know it’s super normal to benervous about sex. Almost everyone is, especially in family or social culturesthat don’t normalize talking about sex. We also do a crappy job in general offormal education about sex and sexuality, so too many people (especially women)aren’t given any background. If both of you are virgins, or new to sexualactivity in general, I bet he’s actually nervous too.

Second, bringing it up is going to be hard, butSO important. It might be worth sitting down and simply saying “I haveno idea how to bring this up, but here it is: I’m worried about sex.” The basis for any good sex life is communication and respect. Ifhe’s not nervous but you are, he has to respect that and be understanding ofthe time you may need to adjust. My guess is he has concerns as well, and beingable to talk about it together will bring a huge measure of relief to both ofyou. Another idea to bring it up would be to write an email or text saying thatyou’re not sure how to bring it up, but want to make sure both of you arecomfortable talking about it, so is there a time y’all could talk about it.Idk, that might be a bit formal for how you guys usually do things, but I knowsome people think better in written form. But being able to talk about your concerns, and having a shared general expectation of how things will go the first time is going to be helpful in making sure you’re not terrified of your honeymoon.

Third, and this is the big one: Almost no one’sfirst sexual encounter goes how they think it will, and that’s almost all because of unrealistic expectations. Sex is a weird concept, bodies areweird, and our cultural and social idea of sex is HIGHLY romanticizedand “sterilized” as it were. We have this Hollywood idea of what sex lookslike and is, and real sex has never been that way. It may end up being awkward physically (more later on that), but that’s okay, because that’s often just how things are, and sexual experiences tend to get better with time. Our culture has normalized the idea of “perfect sex” and promotes this big romantic “first time” narrative, but it almost never works out that way. Not to say it won’t or can’t be fun for you, just know it won’t be all fireworks and amazement right off the bat, because there’s a lot to coordinate between two people and four limbs and blankets and stuff.

Sex might be physically strange or a bit uncomfortable especially the firsttime, but if done properly it doesn’t have to hurt. By done properly, I meangiving both parties enough time to adjust, warm up, and become comfortablewith the situation. First intercourse with any partner, but especially yourfirst EVER partner should be about exploring and admiring each others’ bodies,without pressure to actually engage in classical intercourse (meaningpenetrative intercourse) if you don’t feel up to it. Being very nervous can prevent your body fromadapting in the way it needs to in order to be comfortable and pain-free duringintercourse.

The body has a complex system of reactions thatgear it up for intercourse, but here’s the basics.

How Sex Works Physically

What most people refer to as “foreplay” isgenerally not an optional thing for comfortable sex; smooching, cuddling, and a feeling of closeness are basically necessary to trigger thechemical reactions that start the physical adaptations for sex. Going from 0 (hey how’s it going) to60 (penetrative sex) instantly is going to be uncomfortable at best, but will likely hurtespecially in the beginning. Plus you won’t get anything out of it, and committed-partner sexshould be about emotional closeness as much as it is about physical sensationfor BOTH partners. So spending time cuddling and kissing is an important partof “actual sex.” The chemicals that are released during this time trigger yourbody to send increased bloodflow to the sexual organs, starting the sexual response cycle. (NOTE: Some people can begin the sexual response cycle by thinking about sex, reading or viewing erotic material, or “talking dirty,” so if y’all are really worked up and into it, much “traditional” foreplay like making out may not be necessary. This is usually what’s going on with what people refer to as a “quickie,” both parties are already physically prepared for sex because they’ve been thinking about it and that triggered the sexual response to begin.)

In female/afab bodies, the increased bloodflowresults in swelling of the labia (external parts) and a feeling of fullness,which increases physical sensation (perception of touch), which in turn triggersthe production of lubrication (some people refer to this as getting orbeing “wet” if you’ve heard that term thrown around. And don’t worry, it’s not like a ton of liquid, it won’t be like peeing everywhere or anything, it just makes sure things can move around easily, like an oil coating in a pan.) It also triggers thevagina (the internal parts) to expand, and the vaginal opening to relax and expand. Thesethree processes (lubrication, internal expansion, and external relaxation) are important in making sure sex doesn’t hurt. Like I said,with first intercourse, it may still be a bit uncomfortable because it’s a new sensation and your brain may still be on “no sex, sex is off-limits” mode, evensubconsciously. But if you experience pain–sharp or burning or stinging or stabbing pain, not just pressure (which is normal)– that’s not good, and you should back off and try again later after moresmoochy times or even a good night’s sleep.

Male/amab bodies are somewhat easier to understandbecause much of their adaptation happens externally, and also it’s much moresocially discussed. The penis has a complicated system of tissues that trapthe increased bloodflow coming in, resulting in the enlargement and hardeningof the penis (this is called “erection,” or sometimes informally “getting hard”). It also triggers a production of lubrication, but this is muchless than is produced by the vagina. The male lubrication comes from theopening in the penis, which is called the urethra. (Yes, it is technically thesame tube and opening where urine comes from, but the body totally shuts offthe valve at the bladder for intercourse, so there is no risk of cross-contamination.)During this time, the testicles (most often called the balls, of course) arepreparing semen, which contains sperm and is a thick, viscous liquid. (Theprostate also helps in producing this liquid.) During male orgasm, the semen isexpelled from the same urethral opening mentioned above.

To define, orgasm is the point at which the bodypeaks in pleasure, and is generally the result of repeated physical stimulationto erogenous zones. Erogenous zones are the parts of the body that producesexual pleasure when stimulated. (For many people, this includes not only thegenitals, but the nipples as well.) Male orgasm is easy to identify because itis almost always accompanied by ejaculation (expulsion of the semen), butfemales also orgasm. During female orgasm, the muscles of the vagina anduterus repeatedly contract, which can’t be seen of course(leading folks in the past to believe women couldn’t orgasm).

So, a quick recap: you get all smoochy, then you get all handsy, then clothes come off somewhere in the smoochy and touchy phases, and then if youwant comes penetrative sex. This is the part most people are scared of, and hasthe potential to cause pain if you’re not ready mentally or physically (as inyour sexual response hasn’t yet kicked in all over your body).

I know this is kind of squirmy to say, but itmay actually take several tries (sometimes over several days) toactually “succeed” at penetrative sex, meaning that the penis can enterthe vagina without pain to the vagina-owner. It could also be difficult to findexactly where to put the penis, because generally penis-owners don’t know muchabout what they’re looking for (especially if you’re both virgins), andvagina-owners can’t see what’s going on. So keeping a sense of humor and a lineof communication is super important. Sex is WEIRD. It’s just weird and bizarrewhen you start thinking about it (at least to me, on the asexual spectrum), andacknowledging that and realizing that it won’t be some glamorous tangle oflimbs set to romantic music like on the TV is going to go a long way toward making your experience somuch more positive, and much less awkward.

Mentioned Worries

Re:not wanting it to be awkward. Luckily, it won’t have to be emotionally awkward or embarrassing if y’all go into it with the same expectations, and those expectations are realistic. There’s physical awkwardness, like how a box that’s not heavy but is weirdly shaped is “awkward,” and that’s going to happen no matter what because you’ve never had experience with how to do this sex thing, and you’re not sure where to put your limbs or how to move around another person. But what can be avoided is FEELING awkward, emotional awkwardness, and that’s done through having realistic expectations of what sex is and how it works, and of knowing that both of you are on the same page with this, and are interested in making it work for both of you.

You also mentioned being worried you won’t make your husband happy–I want you to knowboth that this is fine and a good desire (to make him happy), but that it’s not your responsibility to sexually please your husband, and sex is something for BOTH of you. It’s not all on you, it literally takes two to make itwork. Sex isn’t all about him; if it’s something you want to share in yourrelationship, it should be something you want to make work for you, as well as for him. So he has as much responsibility to you as you do to him, to be respectful of your boundaries especially as youfirst get introduced to sex, and to “take care of you” as much as you dofor him. Sex with a new partner is going to take trial and error indiscovering what you both like and dislike, and it’s okay and necessary to be vocal andsay “Please don’t do that” if you need to. I know that you WANT to make him happy, and that’s excellent, because hopefully he wants to do that for you, too! Just know that if sex is kind of weird at first, or y’all can’t quite figure out what’s up on night one, it doesn’t mean you’ve failed as a partner, that you let him down, or that you won’t be able to satisfy each other in the future (even the near future). Adjust expectations so that your first experience isn’t about having the most amazing sex you’ll ever have (more on that in a bit), but about discovering this new facet of your relationship together.

You also mentioned you were afraid of ithurting, and this is the most common fear about sex. You probably heard or readstuff about “breaking the hymen” or “tearing” or something like that.While some girls will have small tears in the hymen (the flap of skin thatsometimes partially covers the vaginal opening), a lot of girls won’t, and thisskin stretches as the physical sexual response (sometimes calledsimply “arousal”) progresses. It’s also less likely to tearor “break” during sex if you’ve used tampons before, because tampons sometimesactually rupture the hymen just by their nature. (This isn’t to say you shouldstart using tampons if you’re not comfortable, of course.) If the hymen doesrupture, you might experience a bit of bleeding, but it’s nothing a pad can’thandle (much MUCH less than a period, more like getting a small cut on yourarm). Sometimes you won’t notice a rupture til after sex if you’re really intoit, but you might also feel it or feel it about to start. If that happens and it hurts, bevocal and tell your partner to stop. You don’t have to hurt during sex, youdon’t owe that to anyone. In fact, you owe it to yourself to NOT endure painjust for someone else’s pleasure. So it might be worth talking to your fiancebeforehand and having a stop-word, which can literally just be “Stop.” Butboth of you should understand going into this that either one of you has the right tosay “no more” at any point.

It may also be worth considering getting somelubricant (”lube”) if you’re really worried about pain, because most pain comesfrom insufficient biological lubrication or insufficient stretching of thevaginal opening, and lube can help with both. Many people find it super fun toapply to each other, apparently, and it can certainly be useful when you’rejust starting out and both new to this idea. (also, if using a condom, lube is important because sometimes the material can irritate the sensitive skin of the vagina and labia) But the most important things youtwo can do for each other as you embark on this adventure together are to bewilling to voice your opinions and feelings, and also to take time to get toknow each others’ bodies and preferences. That’s more or less part of what the honeymoon is for.

Also, make sure you go to the gynecologistbefore you get married. It’s might be awkward or feel a bit embarrassing, but super important in making sureyou’re healthy for sex (just know that gyns do this for a living and have literally seen it all, so your body won’t be a big deal, and they aren’t judging you). And if you happen to have a problem like vaginismus(painful spasms or contractions of the vaginal opening that prevent anythingfrom entering, including tampons or medical equipment) or an obstructive hymen,the Gyn can tell you and help you with that. You can also ask them questions you have about sex, and some Gyns have tools you can use at home to “stretch” the vaginal opening (it’s not generally necessary and is more for psychological assistance than huge physical benefit, but some people who are truly small might actually need a bit of help there, so it’s up to you). You will also probably want birthcontrol, or to discuss options about birth control unless y’all are planning ona baby right away. (Also he should go to the doc and get a checkup, too, justto be safe, and if he’s ever had other sexual partners at any time in the past, he should get checkedfor STDs.)

The Big Important Thing to Remember

Please know:Wedding night sex isn’t going to be the best sex you’ll ever have ever. Cultures inwhich waiting is the expectation or norm (Christianity is the big one for this)tend to promote this idea that your wedding night will be a big amazing reward for waiting, and isgoing to be the most important and pleasurable sex you’ll ever have in your whole entire life and if it isn’t, you’ve done something wrong. It creates a huge amount of pressure surrounding what can already be an emotionally laden experience. But studies on sexual satisfactionshow that couples who have been together for years have the greatest levels ofsatisfaction. So please don’t go into it expecting that your first intercourseis going to make it or break it. It’s more than likely going to be a bit weird even though it will hopefully also be fun and pleasurable, but you’ll have better sex as time goes on and you get to know eachother and figure out what the heck you’re doing. 

Think of it this way: say you LOVE music, and have always wanted to play a piano. You’ve never gotten to be around a real piano before, but playing the piano is a lifelong dream. Are you going to expect yourself to be able to play Mozart the first time you walk into a room with a piano? No! That doesn’t mean that the experience of sitting down at a piano for the first time won’t be euphoric and a fulfillment of a dream, but you can’t go into it thinking or expecting that you’ll be a master the first time you touch the keys. Look at little kids meeting a piano– they just smash around on the keys and it sounds awful to US as adults who know what it “should sound like” and who might even know how to read music and play a bit, but that kid is having the time of their life experiencing the magic of music and of playing the piano. First having sex is like that. It probably won’t be perfect, and you may look back on it years down the road and kind of go “wow we were goofy and weird,” but it can still be fun as long as you aren’t expecting perfection going in. So no, your wedding night isn’t going to be The Objectively Best Sex Ever, and you probably won’t be quite sure what you’re doing and might even be kind of bad at it, but that doesn’t mean it won’t also be nice and wonderful. You’re not doing something wrong if you aren’t over the moon with your first experience; it just means you have something even better to look forward to figuring out and experiencing together! Especially if both of you are virgins, you may have a bit of a time figuring out how things work, but that’s not a sign of failure. 

Plus, when you’ve been culturally surrounded by a narrative of taboo, it can feel mentally scary to suddenly engage in something that used to be off-limits in the biggest of ways. That’s why talking about it frankly is important (and why I have no problem with discussing sex in educational terms!), and why it’s important to discuss with your partner throughout y’all’s sexual life together.

Sex is messy, there’s fluids everywhere, people get sweaty, bodies are weird, and our brains are weird. But I hope knowing all this can help you feel a bit more prepared, and a bit more comfortable. I know this was long and a ton of info, but I’m super passionate about making sure people are educated thoroughly about this stuff, because I never knew any of it growing up. Our school lied to the state about sex-ed; we were supposed to have it, and they didn’t, but said they did. I never got the sex talk because I wasn’t interested in guys OR girls (I was ace and had no clue, another place education failed all of us), so my mom never told me anything about it. I learned a lot in college through classes and through academic research, and then more when I switched to health as a major (and became enraged that we don’t talk about this stuff!!). 

So I hope that despite being long-winded, it can be a useful reference, and hopefully put some worries to rest or at least take it down a notch. And do let me know if you have further questions, or if this was totally off the mark for what you were looking for!

[rosalesbeausderholle]

@honeybisexual when I say 'female' I mean 'afab', 'female' and 'male' as well as 'afab' and 'amab' just refer to what reproductive system you have (but I use the former two because the others were appropriated from intersex people) so yes, by definition, trans men are female/afab/people with vaginas. And by being female, they aren't the same as cis gay men they simply don't have the same experiences, and they aren't the same sex as cis gay men. That's just a fact. I acknowledged their sex. I know you guys don't like to talk about it but biology does affect how society treats you and yes, many people suffer from dysphoria because of being subjected to strict gender roles and trauma, whether they transition/identify as trans or not. It's actually very common among lesbians for example. It happens and erasing it does no one any good. Read up on detransitioned people, esp detransitioned women.

So no, I didn't misgender trans men (notice the neutral pronouns throughout the post, which I used because I was talking in plural) and didn't say anything about whether their gender is one thing or not just acknowledged their sex and also talked about dysphoric female people in general (not all trans men, but the language OP uses to talk about them hurts all of them)

However, you're one of the most lesbophobic and homophobic pieces of shit I've ever seen on this website, so you have no business giving me any moral lessons of any kind hey Ms-Sodomy-Laws-Are-Not-A-Real-Issue-And-Cis-Gay-Men-Are-Evil? I'm trying to approach a very complicated subject with compassion for all people involved, you're a homophobic monster, shut up. This is not your conversation so shoo.

@larpsandtherealgirl I actually know of detransitioned women who've talked about how this kind of language hurts them, as well as trans men who've said the same, and detransitioned women, and I wouldn't be talking about them if I was so totally misinformed as you think I am. I am not making up anything, I'm speaking as for what other people have told me (on their sexualities as well) I'm not saying there aren't any trans men who pull that shit, I've /seen/ them push "gay men should date trans men even if they don't like vulvas" rethoric I've /seen/ them be homophobic and yes many are into yaoi but from what I've seen and read, I know that for many people that's not the only factor. And I have compassion for dysphoric people (esp female people, and no not all women experience dysphoria, saying that just cheapens it) so no, I don't agree with your language.

You can think that makes me a handmaiden or that I'm licking their boots or whatever. I don't care. I am a lesbian who's been very personally affected by the whole "genital preferences" discourse, believe me, I am very very much against it. Me being against your language, because I've read from many people and have been personally told that it hurts them (same with the whole calling them "mutilated" thing, you can criticize the medical industry and transition without personally insulting its victims?) doesn't make me any of that. What it makes me is someone who cares for female people's well-being.

🙄🙄 Tell me again what does making fun of them achieve? Yes they aren’t actual gay men and yes, it’s harmful that they try to pretend that they’re just the same and when they’re homophobic. But what does just calling them “obsessed fujoshis” do? Like many of them are dysphoric, you realize how many young females have dysphoria because of trauma, or because of gender roles or internalized homophobia? And how do you even know they’re straight? They could be bisexual? Hell, even lesbians and just repressing it really hard. Yes it’s gross when they tell gay men that they must date them or call them (and us) fetishists. But what if they date bisexual men and both parties are perfectly happy? What if they date trans men? Or nb females? (as it happens… a lot on these circles) What if any of them detransitions and comes to your side to find answers? Will you treat them like a sister then? What if they see all these awful posts? How can you pretend to even care about the well-being of females traumatized by gender, regardless of how they identify as, when you pull shit like this? Like, you can point out their homophobia without being so fucking gross to a collective of such vulnerable people. You can fight against the awful parts of what trans activism/liberal feminism does and says without needlessly attacking a group of marginalized females (who your “activism” is supposed to be about but you guys don’t actually do any of that you just complain and hate) and generally gnc and dysphoric people. You guys are fucking shit.

Oh, and this doesn’t actually help gay men and lesbians fight against the cotton ceiling rethoric, it just makes “our” side looks like mindless bigots or internet trolls, and not people worth listening to and taking seriously. If you ever want to help, stop making this stupid shit.