#influence lost: kreia

[jan-jan-binks]

[attonposting]

Can we stop to talk about the conversation with Atton where he rambles about women and the idea of love? Because good lord can this man project like a movie theater. We're talking fractal projection. Give him a frickin' medal, because it's projection all the way down.

It's a very missable bit of dialogue. You can only get it with a male Exile, and only then if you've cheesed off Brianna by causing her influence to dip 30 points below Visas's. Unfortunately, this also causes Brianna to permanently stop talking to you, so this is something you're only ever gonna see by accident. I only learned that could even happen pretty recently, and that's with maybe 6 male Exile playthroughs under my belt. I guess I'm just very thorough about exhausting everyone's dialogue options all the time.

So. Brianna's permanently cut herself off as a companion, courtesy of Kreia whispering in her ear, and that sucks. But at least your trashman pilot has something to say about it... and whoa boy is it a consolation prize. Atton proceeds to launch into an arm-around-your-shoulders buddy talk that has exactly nothing to do with your problems and everything to do with his personal issues.

Exile: The Handmaiden lost her temper with me.

Atton: Oh, there's a surprise. Trust me, she's a handful - all warriors are. They're not used to dealing with things they can't punch, kick, or break. Look, I know how it is. Me, there's no denying that I'm a good-looking guy. You have it worse, because even though you might not be as good-looking as me, you have that whole tortured past, that command presence. Women want to save you. They think they can help you.

Exile: What are we talking about?

Atton: They think that everyone can be redeemed, and that they're the only ones who can do it. And you don't know if it's you, or the idea of you that they love.

Exile: [Awareness] Are we talking about me or you?

Atton: We're just talking. Like I said, I've never understood women. It's possible they don't love you at all. That they just want to help you... help you hear yourself if you've gone deaf to your own voice. We all lose our way sometimes, and we need someone to pull us back.

Exile: [Awareness] Sounds like you've had that experience before.

Atton: Don't remember. Truth is, I still don't listen to my conscience even when it's shouting. I think there's times I'd rather be completely deaf than hear it. But all this talk doesn't matter. I'm not qualified to give advice. Besides, when I open my mouth, I'm usually lying anyway.

Like. Just. Holy shit, Atton. Yeah, he's clearly talking about the Jedi who tried to save him, but there's so much more to unpack in here. Let's break it down.

“Women want to save you. They think they can help you.” - Atton wants to save you. He wants to be the hero to your story, something he projects at Mical (to the latter's confusion), but which can also be read into a lot of his actions – when he starts taunting the assassin on Telos to draw heat off you, when he runs out on Nar Shaddaa to give you medpacs and do the same thing with the bounty hunters. The hard evidence is on Malachor. If Atton dies, he says it outright: “Did I save you yet?” And if he falls to the Dark Side, he tells Mical that “he wanted to protect [the Exile], to help her” before he lost his chance.

“They think that everyone can be redeemed, and that they're the only ones who can do it.” - Yeah, it's not really about helping the Exile. Atton needs to be the one that 'saves' you, as a balm to his own lack of purpose and self-worth, and he gets real pissy if anyone else does a better job helping you – or god forbid gets close to you. He's constantly insecure, he's unhappy with most new party members when they join up and, and seriously, the only crime Mical ever committed was being a genuinely good dude in a crew full of misfits. Too bad the galaxy's greasiest pilot reads that as a threat.

“And you don't know if it's you, or the idea of you that they love.” - Atton's attraction to you in a nutshell, and that's before you get the question of Force Bonds involved. Like, seriously. Does he genuinely love you as a person, or is he in love with you as an ideal – as someone who could stop running and face the music for their unforgivable crimes, as someone who actually tries to fix the damage they did? As someone who can still find it in them to care about people after the war broke them down? As a Jedi that actually lives up to the ideal both the Council and Revan failed to? As someone he believes he can relate to, because he thinks he knows your reasons for what you did? Are you a stand-in for his dead Jedi and his hundred conflicting feelings over her? Is he just in love with the idea of having a purpose and wants someone he can bury himself in? Is the idea of martyring himself and finally dying for a reason what he's really obsessed with? Pick your flavor, because who knows! He certainly doesn't!

“It's possible they don't love you at all.” - While this has a lot to do with him wondering why the hell anyone would have tried to save him, I also think this is him reflecting on his own confused feelings towards the Exile. They might not be romantic with an M!Exile (or if they are, he's having intense bi denial), but they're absolutely there and he does not know what to make of them.

“That they just want to help you... help you hear yourself if you've gone deaf to your own voice. We all lose our way sometimes, and we need someone to pull us back.” - This has nothing to do with the Exile, the Handmaiden, or anyone who isn't an ex-Sith assassin who had empathy forcibly shoved into their brain after years of progressively more fucked-up descent into all-consuming hatred.

“Truth is, I still don't listen to my conscience even when it's shouting.” - He almost gets away with this one, but Atton's deep in denial here. He doesn't want to hear it, but he can't turn it off, the same way he can't stop feeling things when he used to have total control of his emotions (because he barely felt anything at all.) It's all why he can't go back to who he was, even though he badly misses the certainty he used to feel. Atton is a pro at ignoring his conscience, which definitely has nothing to do with how much he hates himself, total coincidence... but as soon as the Exile gets involved, that goes out the window, because Atton's self-preservation glitches out. Their Force wound tugs on his better nature... or it yanks at his opposite. And if that happens, Atton is very aware of what's happening to him. He succumbs, but he has more to say on the Exile's fall than anyone short of Kreia. And light or dark, his (im)moral compass gets jarred from 'cover my own ass' to 'protect the Exile' and he repeatedly sticks his neck out for no gain, so yeah, I call bullshit here. He's smack in the middle of his biggest crisis of conscience since the Sith.

“Besides, when I open my mouth, I'm usually lying anyway.” Well, at least he admits it.

[organatwins]

kotor 2 character interactions are so awesome.

kreia: please please please please drop atton from the party he sucks SO BAD

exile: with all do respect- i plan on making him my boytoy

-you have lost influence with kreia-

[pioneer-over-c]

KOTOber day 8: Cantina

it’s past her bedtime

[the-overanalyzer]

Thinking on it, I’m a little peeved that we saw Xehanort using the multiple keys to attack in a cutscene but inexplicably didn’t get a boss fight with him using them against us. It would have been like the final boss of KotOR 2 on steroids.

[mjrojasart]

Sorry, y'all—It's been a crazy busy month for me but I didn't want to break my several years-long track of Inktobers. So here's my one and only contribution - "The Puppet Master" sith/former jedi master, Darth Traya/Kreia.

...And it's also appropriate to post on Halloween as she's one spoopy-looking bish.

[sovonight]

i keep roping mira in when i need a character to comment on the exile and atton’s romance situation but i can’t help it.. she’s the only one who’d actively say anything

[finrays]

Another thing I love that the KOTOR fandom seems to feel across the board;

Everyone both simultaneously loves and hates Kreia.

Because she’s a fantastic character who makes some well-thought-out points about the universe, serves to call out the hypocrisy of the Star Wars canon as a whole, has interesting motives, and loves the Exile dearly.

...but she’s also a trick-ass bitch.

[basketcased]

Pls expand on the force loving the exile im so here

at the end of the game, kreia expresses that the force has a will, and a end goal (that she interprets as being in the name of balance). she says she hates the force, but what the force really does is mirror the user. the force runs strongly through her, but it hates her just as she hates it.

the exile does not hate the force. she did not try to get rid of the force because she hated it- she severed her ties to it because she felt such shame and a need to atone for her actions in the war.

the exile didn’t know how she lost her connection, and kreia planted the idea in her head that it was the jedi masters who did it (a reasonable assumption tbh). the exile was able to believe this reasoning because she did not actively choose to step away any more than accepting the council’s decision to exile her.

i interpret this as the force pulling away from her as much as she pulled away from it- a mutual agreement. in this way, the force respects her. it sees her as an equal, someone who’s strong, because she was able to turn away from everything that could’ve given her power.

the jedi try to keep their emotions under total control, which makes their use of the force more.. sterilized. while the sith lets the force run wild, using it for their own gain, but it will always come back and use them in return (see.. whatever happened with nihilus).

sion is the direct parallel to the exile, in a similar situation as her, but refused to pull away from the force- and instead gave into the influence. it destroyed him, making his life agonizing. he admits himself that it was not worth it.

the forces loves, and it hates just the same. the force holds you close, cradles you. it traps you and holds you before you can even try to escape. when the exile pulled back, the force did the same. when she reformed her connection, it welcomed her back. it loves her, for better or worse.

[allronix]

You ever realize that you are totally recycling a dynamic from another fandom? Worse, recycling a *headcanon* from another fandom?

Back in the bad old days where this handle came from, I wrote a lot about how the Trill culture was egalitarian enough to pass Federation muster on a surface level but up close, there was some severe issues with stratification between the Joined elites who saw themselves as possessed of greater wisdom and being better fit to lead society but had to remain a above and apart from the Unjoined because it was all about the symbiote. The Unjoined were taught that it was their duty to serve and accept the leadership of the Joined with their greater wisdom, internalizing they were lesser. It was considered a great honor for families to give up their children to the Symbiosis Program so they could be Joined. They essentially lost their son or daughter in the process but again, great honor. But while this internalized inferiority, contentment with their lot, and idealism about the Joined was the default mode of the locals, a significant minority were chafing under this and greatly resented the Joined.

I realized as I was writing the Onasi boys (especially with why Dustil was a Sith, even though the Sith burned the planet) that I had that same dynamic going on with the Jedi and the Telosians. Telos was an Agricorps planet. The Jedi found the Sensitives at infancy and raised them in the Temple (and despite the apologists, VERY little suggesting it was warm and fluffy). But if they weren't suitable for swinging sabers (or in Mical's case, no spare Master to take him), they got a one way ticket to Telos. While official sources like The Jedi Path call them valuable contributors, the in universe reality calls them washouts and failures. They grow the Jedi's food, maintain equipment, do admin work, etc. They are the "working class" lay brothers. And a very telling line from Kreia is that they were to "Seed the planet with farmers and laborers."

This implies they aren't subject to the marriage and family bans the "warrior class" Jedi are under. There's also the unsettling idea that...look, you have a bunch of Sensitives where they can be monitored. They are free (maybe encouraged) to marry and have children. Force Sensitivity runs in families...

Yeah. My cynical ass is gonna go there. (@tragicfantasy-girl , this is kinda why I can't be too mad at Obi Wan. He was given this fate in Legends until Qui Gon needed him to stop Qui Gon's ex-Padawan, and it probably messed Obi Wan up to the point where he felt he had to prove himself the "perfect" Jedi...and by the standards of his era, he is that image of perfection in every way, good and bad)

The Jedi would probably not have a clue just how much they lean on people like Telosians ("They were raised as part of our family! We see them as valuable...") and most of Telos probably does believe that the Jedi are their betters and it's an honor to serve but a large chunk of Telosians would probably say something far different if you got them out of Jedi earshot. (Again, looking at the Onasi boys)

And dudes of all genders, I am totally enjoying playing with this disconnect; a culture that is made up of children the Jedi discarded would have probably develop some customs and culture both heavily influenced by the Jedi but also showing a troubled relationship to them as well.

So any fellow KOTOR fans (especially Carth fans) have ideas on what some of those customs could be?

[attonposting]

I've always loved the scene on Telos where Kreia picks up on Atton's nervousness and breaks into his head, because so much crazy bastardry goes down in KotOR II while your protagonist's out of the room, and it's the first (...or second, in Kreia's case) major hint that both of your OG companions are not what they seem. It's punchy, it's brutal, and it sets the stage for some incredible reveals down the line. But also... for as skilled a manipulator as that scene makes her out to be, Kreia's threat to Atton doesn't really make sense?

I mean, imagine you're Atton. You've tagged along with this crazy half-Jedi for a while now, escaped a dead facility and a Sith zombie, blown up a planet, got taken into custody, lost your ship. You wanted to split first chance you got, because your life expectancy in their company's looking kind of shit and the less time you spend near Jedi the better, but you're also kinda inspired by them despite yourself, they need someone to watch their back, and there's a niggling feeling that this is the reason that's eluded you all these years - maybe this is why she thought you were worth something. Then this nasty old schutta tears open your mental defenses like plastic packaging and says “You stick with my student or I'm telling on you.” WDYD?

Atton obviously cares what the Exile thinks, yes. And he's very afraid of their reaction to his past. But if he's going to flee, then it wouldn't matter anymore if they hate him, because at that point he's made the decision to never see them again. Now, the threat Kreia makes to him later on, about dredging up the parts of him he tried to bury – that is a threat with sticking power, one that he can't worm his way around. But the first ultimatum is a cage with very wide bars, and they're ones he could slip through if he really wanted to. Maybe he's afraid the Exile will hunt him down, but it's like Kreia says; if the Exile is a Jedi, they won't kill him for his crimes. And if they're not, they won't care that he was Sith.

If the prospect of the Exile hating him is painful enough to keep him from running on its own, then he's already too far gone to run. So no. At this point, Atton's already decided to stick with the Exile. He just maybe hasn't figured that out yet.

So if it's not an effective threat, why does Kreia make it at all? Well... perhaps it's for the same reason Kreia calls him a fool and a murderer at every opportunity and repeatedly warns the Exile about his intentions. She wants Atton to doubt himself. She wants him to feel trapped so that he resents and fears the Exile; she wants him to struggle with his feelings of inadequacy so that he doesn't approach the Exile on honest footing and takes his frustrations out on everyone around him. She wants him to lie about his past so the Exile will distrust him.

Kreia is strongly against the Exile forming human relationships with their crew and pushes against every companion that has or seeks a close connection with the Exile – she plays up the split loyalties of Visas and the Handmaiden, she dehumanizes Bao-Dur, she derides Mical and insists he doesn't see you as a real person, she rails against every single romantic relationship the Exile might seek. Atton is Kreia's first competitor for influence on the Exile and he's either an extremely loyal friend or hopelessly smitten. She doesn't want Atton to mold you, she wants you to seek her counsel, so she does everything in her power to undermine Atton so that he ruins his own chances. And it's not totally successful (as long as you don't go low influence...), because Atton still admires the Exile more than he resents his situation, and he does come clean... but it doesn't fail either, because he won't admit his feelings until he's on his deathbed.

(And if you do go low Influence, it works completely – Atton is so trapped and isolated that he turns to Kreia as a confidante, as the only one who understands him in all his ugliness, and becomes her loathing disciple like Sion before him.)

In short, Kreia's such a good manipulator that she can coerce people into behaving how she wants them to by pretending to coerce them into doing something else.

[organatwins]

(You have lost influence with Kreia)

[agoddamn]

PC: -breathes-

Kreia: :influence lost:

PC: Hey, fuck you.

Kreia: :influence gained:

[bzdsentai]

Can’t even sneeze around Kreia without “influence lost” popping up.

WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME WOMAN?!

[cypresstreeleaf]

influence lost: kreia

[sovonight]

Atton wakes drenched in sweat, visions of a nightmare still swimming in his head. He staggers out of the crew's quarters and through hallways until he finds Cela, at the workbench, working diligently by cyan lights.

Cela: Is something wrong? Atton, calmed enough by the sight of the glow about her to compose himself: Nothing. Nothing, just... had a dream. Cela: Now that you are awakened to the Force, I should tell you that sometimes dreams are the pathway through which visions come to us.

Atton looks deeply troubled by that, and Cela sets her spanner down, concerned.

Cela, trying to be comforting: ...And sometimes, they are just dreams.

She beckons him closer, and he comes, leaving the dim shadows of the ship's hallways behind.

Cela: Here. Hold these pieces steady, so that I may attach this one.

He watches her set the third piece in place, and turn a few small screws to attach it. She tightens each screw most of the way in, then finishes them in pairs of opposites, making the join even.

He'd seen her construct her lightsaber, back on Nar Shaddaa. She had levitated all the components she had collected, and the crystal had shone in the center, like a sun surrounded by cold, metal satellites, each frozen in orbit. She had drawn them together, then, simultaneously locking every piece into place, a feat she would never have achieved by hand.

Atton: ...I thought you could do this with the Force. Cela: I can. But for a time, I could only work by hand, and I don't want my practice to go to waste.

She adjusts his hold on the part wordlessly, turning it so that she can add the next piece. While setting the screws in place, all go in smoothly but one, which falls into a cavity of the part. Cela tsks in displeasure.

Atton: Really? Cela: Well, in my exile-- Atton: No, I mean... that's the sound you make? Tsk? Cela: ...Yes.

Not looking at him, she claims the part back from his grasp and shakes it, trying to dislodge the lost screw. He thinks that little furrow in her brow isn't just annoyance at the screw, but at him.

Atton: No offense meant-- it's just, most people would've gone for something else. Like a muttered swear, or something. Cela: Hm. You're just talking about yourself, again; Bao-Dur has never done that. Atton, shrugging, joking: Then you don’t know the guy as well as I do.

Finally the screw falls out onto her palm, and Cela sets the part back into his hands. He accepts it just as readily as he did when she beckoned him over, even though the workbench comes equipped with a perfectly good built-in stand that was designed to do the exact job he's been given. Cela returns to her task, the sides of her hands brushing past his fingers as she sets the missing screw in place.

Cela: Will you tell me what happened in your dream?

The calm he's been absorbing from her presence fades.

Atton: I don't know. It doesn't matter anymore, does it? It's over. It's just a dream. Cela: As long as it troubles you, it matters.

As before, she tightens the join methodically, balancing the load across all fasteners. She turns the part again, and he adjusts in sync almost absently, moving with her as naturally as if they had been working together for years.

Atton: ...I was back on Malachor V.

It may be a trick of the light, but he thinks he sees her tense.

Atton: It wasn't like I remembered it-- not exactly. There was this... structure, this... abyss. You were there, at the center of everything. But you weren't the same. Atton: You had all this darkness spilling from your heart, where Kreia's rot had taken hold. You looked proud to command all that power.

The next piece is already in place. Cela makes the next join, but her methodical pattern has come undone, and she turns the screws too tight.

Cela: And you? Atton: I was there with you... talking to you. I was trying to convince you of something, but failing. Atton: And then you killed me.

A clatter sounds, and he looks up from his recollection to see Cela's spanner has knocked into the container of fasteners, spilling screws and nuts and bolts out onto the surface of the workbench. A few roll over the edge and fall to the floor, clattering through the grates.

Atton, managing a smile: You make it seem like you were the one to have that dream. Cela: I'm sorry.

Reaching out through the Force, she brings all the scattered fasteners back up, floating them into their corresponding compartments in the container. She still looks disturbed; he gives her time to collect. Finally, she says,

Cela: I would never hurt you.

He wasn't expecting that, and even less so the quiet conviction threaded into her words. Ignoring the way his heart responds to her, he replies,

Atton: Really? I thought you'd say something about how you'd never let yourself fall.

She shakes her head.

Cela: Anyone can fall. It's not a matter of discipline, but of circumstance. Of the choices we... are able to perceive.

She closes the container, and arranges the spanner to the side absently; the part stays forgotten in Atton's hands.

Cela: I don't remember how I walked away from Malachor. I don't remember how it felt to sever myself from all I knew. Cela: All that I am now comes from that moment in which I turned from death and darkness... but I can't recall it. I can't say that I am, or always was, capable of making the choice I did then. Cela: I can only say that under the influence of the dark side, the heart is often selfish. I would want you by my side. Atton: You wanted me with you in my dream, too. You killed me because I refused. Cela: ...So I could.

She sighs, taking the part from his hands and returning it to the workspace, where its unfinished construction wobbles slightly before it settles.

Cela: I've run out of comfort to give you, Atton. Atton: I didn't come out here looking for comfort. Cela: Then what did you come for? Atton: I just... needed to see that you were okay. And you are, so....

He trails off, but he doesn't leave, even though his words suggest he should.

Cela: Do you need a while longer? Atton: ...Yeah. I guess. Cela: Then join me for pazaak.

She pushes herself from the workbench and leaves for the cockpit, where he keeps most of his things. He follows, calling out a familiar disclaimer.

Atton: Alright, but I'm out of credits, so-- Cela: It's Republic Senate rules. I know.