#imriel no montreve de la courcel

[hussyknee]

Kushiel's Justice summary: Would you kill baby Hitler? The Maghuin Dhonn say yes.

[luminarily]

Imriel accepting and introducing himself as Imriel de la Courcel!!! I am so proud of him

[thequeenofsastiel]

Spoilers for the Imriel trilogy from Kushiel's Legacy

Did anyone else hate the relationship between Sidonie and Imriel? I kept expecting(hoping) it would go in a more interesting direction, as I had come to expect from Jacqueline Carey, but we just got left with a cliché Romeo and Juliet romance, which I found deeply tedious to read, despite Carey's excellent as usual writing.

[white-queen-lacus]

Yes, I had the same feeling!! After all, one of Phèdre's possible futures (I guess it was in the Thetalos) was being Delaunay and Melisande's "daughter"... There was a time, in the beginning, when I had thought it would have been great, but in the end, I loved their dynamics!

Ok, this is a pov I'd never considered, but I like it! I think that Imriel took something after both Anafiel and Rolande, in such a way... He has something of Rolande in look and it seems, in behavior (I can't remember who now, but I clearly remember that somebody once told him that he was somehow similar to Rolande), but, as you said, he also followed Anafiel's steps... And I guess, since the beginning. When Phèdre and Joscelin rescued him from Darsanga, whenever his life was put at a stake again (e.g. when Valérè sent a man to kill him in his sleep), Imriel was taught to investigate by Phèdre, counting on his logical analysis and his observation ability. Basics of Delaunay's training. And when he took the Montrève name, Thelesis reminded him that that was an important name, which he was able to honour greatly during his trilogy. As for his relationship with Sidonie, which is my favourite ever, I've always believed that they are some kind of Romeo and Juliet (with happy ending), but your pov made me really think! 👍👍👍

@a-crack-in-the-universe

[bisexualmeninfiction]

Imriel no Montreve de la Courcel (Jacqueline Carey)

Imriel nó Montreve de la Courcel is a protagonist in Jacqueline Carey’s lengthy and very bisexual Kushiel series, and the only male one. Imriel appears in Kushiel’s Avatar and is the main character in Kushiel’s Scion, Kushiel’s Justice and Kushiel’s Mercy. Set in a fantastic alternate-universe France where everyone is descended from angels, these books depict a sexually permissive society where bisexuality (as well as sex work, non-monogamy, and BDSM) is normal and accepted. 

That’s the good news. 

The bad news is that Carey seems uninterested in fully investing in her characters’ bisexuality and the male characters get particularly short shrift. 

Her female protagonists (Phedre and Moirin), both end up with men as their long-term partners but have emotionally and sexually intense relationships with women along the way. By contrast, Imriel barely kisses a man and never loves one romantically. His significant relationships are all with women.

In fact, as far as I recall (look, there are a lot of really long books), there are no significant male/male relationships in any of the Kushiel novels at all. Two prominent male characters who begin a relationship die quickly afterwards. Imriel’s gay friend comes from a less accepting culture, goes through significant angst over his attraction to men and ends the book single.

Imriel was raped and abused by men as a child and this is explicitly given as the reason he’s unwilling to explore relationships with men as an adult despite being attracted to them. While that would be totally understandable if Imriel were a real person, it’s frustrating in the context of the lack of attention to queer male relationships among other characters in these books and also Imriel’s particular character arc. 

A large part of Imriel’s evolution as a character is his struggles to come to terms with his trauma around sexual sadism so he can have the kinky sex (with a woman) that he really wants. Carey could have had Imriel similarly address his trauma around men, but she doesn’t really and he ends the books almost where he started in that respect.

Though it’s undercut by the way almost every character ends up in a male/female relationship, Carey’s female characters (both protagonists and side characters) have significant relationships with men and women. The disparity in Imriel’s treatment is obvious and disappointing - it really feels like Carey wasn’t comfortable writing a bisexual man.

I should be clear that I really love these books and it’s great to see so many bisexual characters on the page. I just wish Carey had fulfilled all the potential she created.

Says “bisexual”? No.

Immortal/non-human? Yes. D’Angelines’ distant descent from angels makes them inhumanly beautiful and contributes to their society’s sexual openness.

Dies? No.

Evil? No.

[libraryogre]

d'Angelines, Heteronormativity, and Gender Roles

So, for the past few months, I've been listening to Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series on my commute. This is my 2nd read plus with the books, but my first listen with them, and my first in a while. I remember reading them soon after they came out and a number of friends became somewhat infatuated with them. In this pass, though, while still enjoyable, I'm noticing a lot. While Terre d'Ange is a very sex positive place, I notice we never see any homosexuals, and few male bisexuals. Lots of bisexual ladies, with that seeming to be the norm, but few bisexual men. Mavros, Imriel's cousin is. Lucius, Imriel's friend from Tiberium is bi enough that he seems to think it likely that his marriage will produce heirs. Ti Phillipe is bi, but his lover Hughes might be the only homosexual in the series... and that's only because I cannot recall anything to the contrary (his infatuation with Phedre might be sexual, but she's also a hero of the realm). There are also a number of cameos of Servants of Namaah who are bisexual males, but they are cameos, not even as well developed as Hughes. The two male leads, Joscelin and Imri, are, respectively, celibate-except-for-Phedre and bicurious but pretty firmly heteroromantic. The heteronormativity extends to cultural expressions. At his wedding, it is expected he will dance with his (female) Courcel cousin with whom he has an openly strained relationship, but never with his (male) Sharazai cousin who seems to be his best friend in residence. It may simply be omitted, but it is *always* omitted. Tiberium is noted as being hostile to homosexuality (especially male homosexuality), but Terre d'Ange never seems to embrace it. Lastly, to gender roles. Women have property and inheritance rights in Terre d'Ange, but are still in constrained gender roles. While Phedre bemoans the place of women in Tsingano, Akkadian, and Serenissiman society, and Imriel opines on their restraint in Tiberian, I cannot recall any example of d'Angeline freedom... their are no women warriors or sailors mentioned, at least among the d'Angelines. Women are queens and ladies and the wives of seneschals (not even the seneschal themselves), and sex workers are treated with respect, but there are no d'Angeline examples of women who break out of relatively conventional gender roles. Phedre, for all that she throws herself into danger at the slightest provocation, barely even has self-defense training, while her adoptive son is trained in an exclusive fighting style from 10 years old, with at least passing familiarity with a more common style... and is skilled enough at 16 to fight a blooded warrior (Eamon) to a standstill. Ah, well, there is a reason this blog is called "Overthinking It." It is inspiring me to think more deeply about sex and gender roles roles in fantasy, especially in settings divorced from Earth history.

[goldcaught]

book meme!!! tagged by the indomitable @cbk1000, thanks babe

1. Favorite book of all time?

THIS IS A CRUEL AND UNUSUAL QUESTION the answer to which is jacqueline carey’s kushiel’s dart

2. What are you currently reading?

currently i’m rereading one of my faaavorites BY one of my favorites, three nights of sin by anne mallory

3. Have you ever considered writing a book?

it has been considered and discarded

4. Favourite series?

stealing jenn’s format for this one bc you cant stop me ahem

kushiel’s legacy, jacqueline carey WHICH includes imriel’s books 3-6 of the series and does not include the naamah trilogy which was a mess

riddle-master trilogy, patricia a. mckillip

psy-changeling, nalini singh

maiden lane, elizabeth hoyt

immortals after dark, kresley cole

pennyroyal green, julie anne long

5. Book you’d like to read?

THE NEXT IAD, shadow’s kiss, which isnt going to be my most eagerly anticipated nix/orion or even my second most anticipated kristoff/furie but will still shuffle us closer along to them which at this point is all i ask

7. Favourite fictional character(s)?

so many!!! phedre no delaunay (kushiel’s legacy), joscelin verreuil (kushiel’s legacy), imriel no montreve de la courcel (kushiel’s legacy), sidonie de la courcel (kushiel’s legacy), nix (immortals after dark), hawke snow (psy-c), sienna lauren snow (psy-c)

8. Book Ships

phedre/joscelin (kushiel’s legacy), imriel/sidonie (kushiel’s legacy), hawke/sienna (psy-c), sunshine/constantine (sunshine) 

9. Pick up the book closest to you, open page one and write down the first paragraph.

Lest anyone should suppose that I am a cuckoo’s child, got on the wrong side of the blanket by lusty peasant stock and sold into indenture in a short-fallen season, I may say that I am House-born and reared in the Night Court proper, for all the good it did me. It is hard for me to resent my parents, although I envy them their naïveté. No one even told them, when I was born, that they gifted me with an ill-luck name. Phèdre, they called me, neither one knowing that it is a Hellene name, and cursed. - Kushiel’s Dart, Jacqueline Carey

Morgon of Hed met the High One’s harpist one autumn day when the trade-ships docked at Tol for the season’s exchange of goods. A small boy caught sight of the round-hulled ships with their billowing sails striped red and blue and green, picking their way among the tiny fishing boats in the distance, and ran up the coast from Tol to Akren, the house of Morgon, Prince of Hed. There he disrupted an argument, gave his message, and sat down at the long, nearly deserted tables to forage whatever was left of breakfast. The Prince of Hed, who was recovering slowly from the effects of loading two carts of beer for trading the evening before, ran a reddened eye over the tables, and shouted for his sister. - The Riddle-Master of Hed, Patricia A. McKillip

i couldnt decide they were both right there leave me alone

10. What’s the 1st fandom you were in?

SADLY none of my books have any discernible fandoms; but also even if they did i’m super picky about my face claims and like, most of the time i refuse to cast anyone bc they never compare to how i see/hear them in my head, so seeing interpretations of my faves i didn’t agree with would be a difficulty i’d have to work through

eta i forgot to tag people!!! @candycolamorgan, @klarolinedrabbles, @lynyrdwrites, @thetourguidebarbie, & @cupcakemolotov 

[typingnerd]

It is whispered that Kushiel's lineage carries its own dark gift, the ability to perceive the flaws and fault lines in another's mortal soul. To discern those forms of cruelty that are kindnesses unto themselves, to administer an untender mercy. And like all gifts, it can be used for unworthy ends. I hope it is not true. But at night, I sense its presence like a shadow on my soul, waiting. And I lie awake in my bed, clinging to the brightness I have known, fighting back the tide of darkness, the memories of blood and branding and horror, and the legacy of cruelty that runs in my own veins, shaping my own secret vow and wielding it like a brand against the darkness, whispering it to myself, over and over. I will try to be good.

Imriel no Montreve de la Courcel

[aeryllou-blog]

Success!!

I recently finished rereading Jacqueline Carey's second series set in her AU. 

This is the one I have the hardest time rereading, in it's entirety, for several reasons.

The first is likely because the first series focuses on a sub, Phedre*, this one, focuses on a dom, also Phedre's foster son, and as I am a sub, I have a harder time identifying with the protagonist, Imriel. 

The second reason, though, is because HE'S SO EMO!!!!  Like I get it, you've suffered, you've been abused, and you bear the burden of your birth mother's treachery.  But he's so self absorbed, it's just, ugh.

So what I tend to do, is skip chunks of the books, when it gets boring(for me).  But I forced myself to read it all this time, and I was still bored, but I also paid attention to the parts that bored me, and I figured it out. 

I'm bored whenever Imriel isn't surrounded by the awesome women in his life.  Or some of the awesome men(some of the men bore me too). 

I dunno if it's because he's a guy, and after spending 2/3 of my life being forced to identify with guys for my entertainment needs, I'm OVER IT, or if it's something else. 

But he's surrounded by awesome women, which totally makes up for the boring parts. 

*Phedre's so awesome, I never skip anything in her books.  Moirin, the protag of the third series, is pretty awesome, and it still gets kinda draggy while trekking across Central America, but it's still readable.  I cannot count how many times I had to put down Imriel's books(especially the second) to come back after I wasn't bored anymore. 

[hussyknee]

Holy shit the last Imriel book is so bad it's actually heartbreaking. It doesn't even read like Jacqueline Carey wrote it. Was she replaced by a ghost writer? A pod person?

I cannot overstate how unbelievably bad this book is. It feels like some kind of really bad prank. It's a bad fanfic inspired by a cartoon that has characters sharing the same names as the rest of the series. It's worse than what happened to the later Discworld novels after Terry Pratchett's Alzheimer's really started setting in. At least we can just not count those last novels as part of the real Discworld canon. But Imriel's real story just going to stay unfinished forever.

At least parts of the first half was okay. And the showdown between Imriel and Astegal deserved a better story. Idk man what the fuck. I loved this boy so much. We really can't have anything.

[hussyknee]

I think I'm so fixated on Imriel's Trilogy because it would be such a great story if it wasn't the author writing it. Which is exactly my brand.

Jacqueline Carey is the most white woman to ever white woman good Christ. I know she apologized for not having any trans characters in Kushiel's Legacy even though it's an LGBT story because nobody knew what the T stood for in the 2000s. But if not for that, she's who I would pick to have gone fully radfem JKR. Not least because you can tell at what point she thought she was too good for an editor (halfway through the first Imriel book). All three books are at least one third longer than they have to be. The tortured fake medieval speak in making my eyes bleed. Did they kill the editors in the publishing house? Put them out to pasture to graze with JKR's? I keep wanting so badly to at least beta read this. The writing's engaging, even if the plots are a bit slipshod, but dear God it would be so easy to make this a bit more readable.

And then there is the narrative. Carey seems to think women are exceptionally sensible soft-hearted unicorn species (when they aren't scheming badass girlboss villains). It's indistinguishable from some benevolently sexist old Victorian guy. Rape only happens to women and children. For men, being sexually assaulted is a good nudge nudge wink wink joke. And the white ethnosupremacy! Girl, an idealised white Tolkien race that's better and more beautiful and progressive than everyone else, most of whom grow more and more misogynistic and barbaric the further away, is still white supremacy even when in it's alternate universe medieval France. Also, beauty standards aren't universal across borders and cultures, especially in the medieval world. How do you put this much thought into an alternate history and complex belief systems and not even consider what it means to have different cultures and ethnicities? You don't get cookies for allowing your Legolas race of people marry into indigenous Celts and Picts when you keep rhapsodizing about how much prettier and more civilized D'Angelines are! And what the fuck is up with this obsession with blood relations?? Why do you need to have your protagonists halfway in love with their adoptive parents (I overlooked it once because of extenuating circumstances but jeez), why do you need to make the adoptive parents have to qualify their claims in the middle of being a parent ("He is my son....at least in my heart") and why do you keep insisting blood connections equate to stronger bonds ("Alais may be the sister of my heart, but Sidonie is her flesh and blood." "She's my blood! Why do you think I tried so hard to protect her from you?") when the whole premise of the series is a ruling family fucking each other over for the throne?

I will say that Sidone finally seems like a real person and she's pretty great, but Imriel's own personality has faded so much to let her shine that sometimes it's like it's just some guy narrating the book. Imriel's intensity and guilt and charm and cunning have all just vanished in the third book. He's just there to weep and gnash his teeth at losing Sidone, tear at his hair about Sidonie being in danger, gaze adoringly at her and being her bodyguard. It's like watching the later seasons of a CW show. Everything is about the badass trophy girlfriend who's always right about everything. Sidonie isn't as obnoxious but good God it's like she's the only real person in this book. Kratos is literally just there to gape at her. (URIST PLEASE COME BACK YOU WERE MY FAVOURITE.) Complete waste of characters who've been so compelling and engaging all this time.

In short, this a goddamn mess. Why do the most privileged, insipid white people get the most opportunity to sell their stories?

I'm going to assume that Phedre's Trilogy is actually good though. I stopped halfway down the first book because I was too shocked and sad when my faves died and picked up the Imriel sequels instead so that I'd already know the basics of what happened in the original. (I literally read the Wikipedia plot synopsis while in the movie theater before it starts so that I'm not surprised by anything. I'm too emotionally dysregulated for surprises.) But what I read was really, genuinely good. I skimmed the other two and they also seemed as good. So I'm hoping that whatever youthful talent Carey possessed before bloated egoism brought her down lives up to its promise. Plus I just really love Phedre. Scheming little bitch she is. She's lost all her spice and teeth and self-absorption in Imriel's books, but she's mostly there to be his mother that everyone has a crush on, including him, so it didn't matter. Imriel doesn't have an Oedipal complex, but he always gives the impression that he might if he let himself think about it too hard.

Edit: no but seriously. Why the fuck does this last book read like a bad ghostwriter wrote it??

[hussyknee]

There's something about Kushiel's Mercy that doesn't feel like an Imriel book. It feels like he's regressed somehow. The mass brainwashing spell in the first hundred pages smack dab in Terre D'Ange feels jarring. The magic in the other books is much more arcane and exotic, both plausible and implausible because it doesn't happen in Terre D'Ange, where it's all about court intrigue.

And I still don't care about Sidonie. Like I'm glad Imriel's finally happy but I don't feel this grand love of theirs. It feels like telling instead of showing. She's almost a cardboard cutout of a Strong Female Character for the sake of plot, which is strange because all the other women are so three dimensional.

Otoh, Melisande shines like a jewel in this one scene. I hated her throughout (SHE GOT ANAFIEL AND ALCOUIN KILLED DIEEEEE) up until she said in her letters that she had loved Imriel beyond reason and counted all his tiny fingers and toes and wouldn't let anyone feed him but her. It was the first human glimpse of what had until then been a completely awful, cruel, cold-blooded woman. And now in this book—her grief and helplessness at what had happened to Imriel, finally realising all the pain she had caused and the weight of her crimes, accepting that her son owes her nothing and he deserves to hate her— it's really sad and touching. This is the scene that finally makes her a remarkable character for me because, while evil does nothing for me, repentance is something I live for.

And I mean repentance instead of redemption, because some characters can't be redeemed in a narrative without diluting the tragedy of their victims. Redemption demands the shifting of focus from the pain of the victims to the guilt of the perpetrator. It's that choice that holds up a mirror to the real world— who we find worthy of forgiveness, why we want them redeemed and why we make the choice to let the reality of the victims become background for the villain's interiority. It's the difference between villain apologia and villain appreciation. At this point, Melisande's repentance enhances her character as a villain while not losing focus of its cost. I really hope the rest of the book doesn't muck it up.

[hussyknee]

I really, really vibe with Imriel's gentleness and determination to make peace with whoever gives him half a chance. I know you're supposed to identify with the protagonist, but the way he felt tender even to Maslin once he gave him half a chance, who he'd hated for sleeping with Sidonie? I really felt it. It's not just a compulsive need to be liked; I just dearly want to believe in people, even ones I detest.

Imriel's defining quality might be stubbornness only second to Phedre, but I'm not sure whether I've ever encountered a protagonist that married deeply introspective self-interrogation and a gentle, open heart so well. I'm used to relating to ADHD personalities and troubled souls, but this the first time I've seen someone's uncomplicated virtue and gone "oh that's me! That's me!"

He also blames himself for everything under the sun, which is one for the profoundly-relatable troubled soul column. Maybe you just can't the virtue without the vice.

The biggest wish fulfilment is the fact that Imriel's penchant for giving people chances keeps winning him loyalty and acceptance instead of coming back to bite him every time lmao.

[white-queen-lacus]

Imriel’s second meeting with Mavros

"Cousin!" A voice cleaved the crowd, light and friendly. I looked up to see one of the Shahrizai approaching. It was one I had seen before, a few years older than me. He reached out to clasp my forearm. He was smiling, filled with assurance, midnight braids framing his face with its high cheekbones. "Remember me?" he asked, winking.

"Yes," I said, remembering. "You're Mavros."

"So I am." He turned his smile on the nobleman, at once pleasant and dangerous. A kind of heat seemed to emanate from him, playful and predatory. "I suggest you be gone, Messire Bauldry." He paused. "Or... forgive me... did you wish to offend?"

"He jostled me!" Bauldry spat.

"Oh?" Mavros raised his brows, still smiling pleasantly. "As you say."

Somehow, he had turned it all around, and I was grateful to him for it. I returned his arm-clasp; glad, for the first time, to see a face that echoed my own. Both of us laughed as Messire Bauldry stomped away. "Who is he?" I asked.

"No one," Mavros said, amused. "A minor lordling with aspirations. Look, highness--”

------------------------------------------------------------------

I have already written something about the relationship between Imriel and Mavros before... for some reason, I can’t see my post even if I have correctly tagged it... ;_;  Anyway... this is one of my favorite moments. In Kushiel’s Scion, after Imriel attended the Longest Night observing the Elua’s vigil with Joscelin, he suffered from a bad cold (well, Imri here is still physically weak due to the fact that Darsanga’s trauma left him weaker than the other children around his age, as stated by Phèdre when she compared Imri’s excessive and unhealthy thinness to Alcuin, who was thin himself) and Ysandre ordered him to be cured by the royal surgeon in the royal palace.  After some time, Imriel, almost recovered, decides to go to the Hall of Games in the Palace, to get back his Montrevan retainers and come back home at Montrève. Here, he is shooked by a sound that made him remind of Darsanga and he accidentally brushes against a nobleman (Messire Bauldry) who reminds him whose son Imriel is. And well, we know what unconfortable Imriel is when it comes to his parents, but also when his persona is offended. Then Mavros arrives and he basically saves the day. With just few words, a playful and predatory smile and glance, he is able to save his cousin from a bad moment. This image basically depicts the power of the Shahrizai, who are Kushiel’s scions. Mavros is the only one of his family that Imriel is not afraid of. Well... actually he gets along with Roshana too, but Mavros is the nearest thing to a blood-related brother to him, more than Eamonn, who is his best friend.  The thing I liked here is that for the first time (at least for now, since when the Shahrizai’s youngsters went to Montrève, Imriel and Mavros literally went one against the other), Imriel refers to one of his kin as “glad, for the first time, to see a face that echoed my own”. Because Imriel hates his face (at least in Scion). His face is his mother’s face, his eyes are his mother’s eyes, and since he hates his blood mother, he hates everything that makes him remind of her, so his Shahrizai’s traits are not well tolerated by him. Actually, the blood in his veins makes him strangely attracted by his kin, but at the same time he is afraid of being like them. The Shahrizais are a powerful and dark family who use Kushiel’s lineage gift for its own advantage. All the members share this aura of danger, heat, power, cunning, seduction, all masked by a pleasant smile (wonder who make me think about...*helloPhantomhives* XD). They are totally devoted to the crown (the family head, Duc Faragon, is clear about this and he really wants Imriel to know his family members), but they protect the family businness.

Also, the Shahrizais share the gift of reading the fault-lines in mortal souls (due to their Kushieline lineage and the fact that Kushiel was originally the judge of human souls) and they can use this gift to their own advantage (actually, in KL, only Melisande and Imriel performed this, but while Melisande uses her gift without the benefit of a conscience Imriel is so scared by what he had suffered that he decided to use this gift for good... well, actually not always, but most of the time). Mavros seems able to do the same, manipulating people as he wants, but his interests are addressed at knowing and protecting his younger kinsman, who “grew up differently from us”. That is why, Mavros is the one who helps Imriel to know and understand his darkest desires, sometimes giving voice to Imri’s inner and hidden thoughts (I still laugh with him telling the ultimate truth "Oh, you do." Tilting his head, Mavros regarded me through his lashes. "Barquiel L'Envers' head on a stake, and Sidonie de la Courcel whimpering in your bed.").

Mavros also is the most supportive person in helping Imriel and Sidonie in their secret affair, just like Amarante and be doesn’t hesitate one moment to allow them sharing some moments together, even if this would mean going against the Queen’s will. Also, being a master in pleasure, it’ s thanks to his efforts that Imriel is finally able to embrace without any fear his dominating side... because yes, when Imriel lets his fears go, he is definitely his mother’s son, even in bed. The ony thing he can’ t succeed is playing Valerian to Imriel’s Mandrake. Like almost all D’Angelines, and beautifully Shahrizai being, Mavros is canonically bi and he is not against incest, believing that being cousins is not a problem. Actually Imriel has not interest in men (only few times he has shown interest: for Eamonn and Maslin, but he was just infatuated of their confidence and good heart *second and first*, for Lucius... or better, from Lucius, who kissed him, for an adept of Valerian House who gave him a bj, but he was almost drunk if I am not wrong and in Mercy when he had sex with Sunjata, but he was under the spell cast by Solon and he really thought he was Leander Maignard, and Sunjata was an eunuch), but this didn’t ever altered their relationship at all. 

Another thing I found lovely is the choice of their names: while Imriel’s name is the name of an angel, evoking light, Mavros’ name means “dark”, and Mavros is definitely one of the darknesses Imriel is not afraid of. <3