#if you kill eurylochus you are killing the crew he HAD to die either way

[cheese-crusts]

odysseus tried to get eurylochus to die to scylla not because eurylochus opened the bag but because he knew that eurylochus would try to kill him for killing the other 6 members of his crew

[charowon]

Something that occupies my mind:

When we think about Odysseus' choice to withhold information and use six men as meat shields, the first instinct is to think that the betrayal lies in something simple like "not trying something else to get past Scylla" or "not being honest with the crew and giving everyone an equal chance to survive or die in the encounter". But the betrayal doesn't seem so bad through that lense, after all, hey, people would have died either way, right? Wrong.

The real betrayal in lying to them isn't just that.

I think the real betrayal is that (by doing this) he took the decision from them to not sail through Scylla's lair at all.

He erased their choice to GIVE UP.

Because Odysseus, more than anything, wants to go home. Wants to get to Penelope and his son.

And as we see in the second half of Mutiny, Eurylochus is tired. He is so done. He doesn't have that drive. He didn't make the choice Odysseus made in Monster, to get home no matter what. If Eurylochus had his own little moment off-screen in the Underworld, seeing all the dead crew members, then it was probably him coming to the realisation that NOTHING is worth sacrificing themselves for, not even to go home. The rest of the crew is probably the same.

So if Odysseus had been honest with the crew or even just his second in command, there's a very good chance that they would have said "okay, cool, we had a good run, but we're done now with the journey. We're settling down on the next nice island we see. Bye". (Because why would you risk that at least six men die for sure, if you can just start a new life somewhere else? Maybe Circe is okay with some new roomies if they promise to behave)

And the only one who would never be able to accept the option of giving up is Odysseus himself. Because being away from home, away from Penelope is slowly killing him inside. (If the crew is starved and driven to madness by hunger, then Odysseus is starved and driven to madness by his longing for his wife)

So yes. He betrayed them. Hard.

But he would never choose anything different.

[wolfnight2012]

EPIC!Polites had to die

(Hear me out!)

Anyways, i talked a bit about how Polites literally moves the plot in EPIC ( here) but this time I'm sorta gonna mirror the arguments.

So, this is all gonna come across as Polites favoritism, but (though you don't have to agree with what I say) know my arguments are taken straight from the text.

So, why does Polites have to die?

Because EPIC cannot happen without his death (for two reasons)

Number One

As I state in my linked post, Polites is the only person Odysseus is shown to listen to.

Odysseus changes his mind/his actions 3 times in Act 1.

Zeus: Odysseus would not have killed that infant if Zeus did not tell him to. Zeus tells him the infant will kill Odysseus' loved ones in the future & with a heavy heart, Odysseus acquiesces.

Tiresias: Odysseus would not have become the monster if the prophet had not told him he would never get home + Penelope was with a murderer.

Polites: at the end of "Open Arms" Odysseus starts to seriously consider Polites' words (that's why he sings Polites' words "Greet the world with open arms" back to him.) Thats also why that's the moment Athena chooses to come berate Odysseus. Odysseus has been guilt-ridden since Astyanax, but Athena chooses this moment, when Odysseus is with Polites & listening to him, to tell him he's "forgotten to turn off [his] heart."

One of these instances is not like the other.

Unlike with Zeus or Tiresias, Polites is not threatening Penelope/Odysseus' family.

These are also not the only instances of someone trying to change Odysseus' mind (or trying to tell him what to do)

Odysseus disregards Athena's instructions to kill Polyphemus & when she doubles down on his recklessness/disappointing actions, Odysseus essentially tells her to fuck right off.

Odysseus refuses to give Poseidon a real apology (not saying it would have saved his crew or not, but Odysseus clearly thought it would, hence him playing along)

Odysseus doesn't allow himself to be tempted by Circe in order to save his men (not saying this is a bad thing btw!!)

And then there's Eurylochus.

Eurylochus, notably, tries to reason with change Odysseus' mind a whopping Five Times in Act 1.

Full Speed Ahead: "We don't know what's ahead"

Remember Them: "Captain, we should run"

Storm: "Captain, we will capsize with these waves, our fleet will fail"

Luck Runs Out: (literally the entire song)

Puppeteer: "Think about the men we have left, before there're none"

And Odysseus listens a total of zero times.

And yet, unlike with "Luck Runs Out" when Polites tries to tell Odysseus to change his behavior/his mind/his way of thinking, Odysseus puts up a lukewarm resistance at best AND he sincerely considers Polites' words.

Number Two

Out of all the characters we've been introduced to this far (up to the Thunder Saga) Polites is the one who knows Odysseus best (AND the one he is closest to)

I know we only have 2-3 songs to establish Odysseus & Polites' relationship while Polites is alive (though he does very much haunt the narrative, even up to "Suffering" as Jorge recently-ish informed us) but OH BOY, is it Thoroughly established.

Full Speed Ahead:

The joy in Odysseus' voice when he greets Polites vs the more professional affection given to Eurylochus' entrance.

Not only the fact that Odysseus chooses Polites out of 600 men to scout the island with him, but that he choses only Polites. Either he can trust his life to Polites' skill as a warrior OR (more likely imo) he wants some alone time. And he feels he can be alone/himself with Polites.

Open Arms:

Polites immediately knows something's up with Odysseus but (unlike Eurylochus in "Luck Runs Out") he doesn't say anything in front of the crew, rather waiting until they're alone on the island. Either Polites has more tact than Eury OR (more likely imo) he knows Ody--enough to know he doesnt respond well to being called out in front of others or how to best approach a conversation about his mental state

Polites correctly calls out that Odysseus is tired of war (which Odysseus confirms in "Just a Man"), that he's stressed out ("Look at how you grip your sword, enough said"), and that something is eating at him ("I see in your face there is so much guilt inside your heart")

Odysseus never gets defensive with Polites or shuts down him down (unlike in "Luck Runs Out") despite the fact that Polites IS calling Odysseus out, (Just Like Eurylochus in LRO!) The most we get is a half-hearted/unconvincing "I'm fine, Polites" which makes ME think Ody isn't trying too hard to convince Polites, either because he knows he can't get one past his best friend or because he doesnt want to wear a mask, not around Polites.

((arguably!!)) Odyssues only goes to the cave/trusts the lotus-eater's information because of Polites (which is another instance of him being swayed by Polites or of the affection he holds for his friend being strong enough for him to want to please him)

Survive:

Polites' death is what causes Odysseus to freeze up/go into shock. Odysseus stops captaining his men & leaves them orderless (despite their pleas for him to resume command) solely because Polites dies (and we do have confirmation on this given that in the last live-stream, the stage directions during "Remember Them" tell us Odysseus is still staring at Polites' body up until Eurylochus snaps him out of it)

[edit]Underworld:

Odysseus becomes overwhelmed by the accusing voices of the underworld & starts to spiral (arguably starts having the beginnings of a panic attack)

Polites' voice snaps him out of it (listen to the change in the music/soundscape from "I keep thinking of the infant from that night" to "This life is amazing"

There is audible relief/hope in Odysseus' first "Polites." I hesitate to call it joy, but everything does become lighter

However, Polites CAN'T offer Odysseus comfort/support, since he's not really here/he's just a spirit stuck in his deathloop

Odysseus' 2nd "Polites" sounds dejected/small when he realizes Polites can't interact with him/stay

He was hoping for comfort/support! He heard Polites & the screams IMMEDIATELY quiet! His mood audibly lifts! Polites is canonically Odysseus' emotional/mental support, as seen in "Open Arms" (check out my super long post analyzing "Open Arms" lyric by lyric here) and by how we are shown/told he's noticeably changed in the Ocean Saga (both by Eurylochus suddenly doubting Odysseus + the lyric "Everything's changed since Polites)

So, why do I think Polites had to die to keep the EPIC plot as is?

Well, given the information we have (and including no further speculation or headcanons) we know five things:

Odysseus trusts Polites

Odysseus cares deeply about Polites

Polites can effectively tell when something is bothering Odysseus

Polites can call Odysseus out without getting shut out/down

Polites can get Odysseus to listen/change his mind

Which tells me, Polites could have likely prevented everything past the blinding of Polyphemus.

We KNOW Polites' death is a large part of what causes Odysseus to shout out his name ("My friend is dead") but beyond that:

If anyone is going to tell something is eating at Odysseus in the Ocean Saga, it's Polites. (No other crew member tries to figure out how Odyssues is doing mentally/emotionally OR figures out what's bothering him beyond "Everything's changed since Polites") If Polites is alive, Odysseus isn't carrying all the weight on his own, because Polites will notice & reach out

Polites has a track record of getting Odysseus to listen. If they need to talk to him, it most likely wouldn't be Eurylochus stepping up if Polites lived

Odysseus trusts Polites. If they still get the windbag, Odysseus is letting Polites take a shift

If Polites lives, the plot of EPIC is diverted during the Ocean Saga at latest. Either Odysseus isn't made reckless with grief/anger & thus doesn't reveal his name. Or he doesn't become isolated/succumbs to his stress (and thus allows doubt to sow within the crew) because Polites is there to reach out. Or he trusts the windbag to Polites & they make it home to Ithaca.

Polites has to die to cement Odysseus' downward spiral.

Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

[merp-blerp]

Just thinking out loud about The Thunder Saga and everything connected to it.

I get why people are mad at Eurylochus for opening the windbag, but I don't understand blaming him for the crew getting caught by Poseidon. Sure he definitely sped up the event, but even if they were inches away from Ithaca right before that moment like they were in the original Odyssey (which seems to be hinted at with Ody saying "And I'm getting closer to you"), Poseidon would've gotten to them eventually anyway because he's a god, a major one at that. And gods get their will no matter what consistently, even if mortals try to twist it like how Ody does when opening the bag a second time. I can only assess what sagas we have currently, so I could be really wrong as future sagas come out, but I think Aeolus must've known that fact and that was the game he was playing. As if he's saying, "I'll help you, but I can't stop Poseidon with a bag. The Winions will even make it extra hard with a treasure rumor." The bag was supposed to aid the crew home, not stop Poseidon, so they would've had to deal with Poseidon anyway in Ithaca, which probably would've made more casualties because they would've brought their trouble to the whole kingdom. Remember Ithaca is on an island. Poseidon is the god of the sea, so Ithaca would be a perfect target for him to destroy because of that. But it's not his will to do that; he wants to play games with Ody to avenge his son. The only reason why mortals feel like they have a choice and can manipulate fate is because the gods like to play games; it's still their will if Ody wins a game like he does in "Ruthlessness" because it was their will to play in the first place, and they can win if/when they want to. Just 'cause Poseidon "lost" in "Ruthlessness" doesn't mean he actually did, he just let Odysseus go. For now. If his will changes and Ody gets no consequence from him it's on his terms, not Ody's. Just like with Circe, as I've talked about.

But back to Eurylochus, I adore the parallels between The Thunder Saga and The Ocean Saga. During The Ocean Saga, Eurylochus only opens the bag, not for treasure, but to give the crew closure, as we know thanks to Aeolus's "Now they wanna get the bag open so they can have closure". Especially if they were close to home, I imagine his thought process might've been that opening the bag was wrong but morally okay since the journey was almost done and Odysseus was sleeping so it seemed like it wasn't a big deal anymore in his eyes. But that's more my hypothesis. In terms of canon, his trust in Ody, which wasn't high to begin with, was dwindling, as Ody bragged about how no men died in war and then several died with the Cyclops. "Everything's changed since Polites, so". In The Thunder Saga, it's similar, as Eurylochus knows killing the cow is wrong, but they've all lost hope on getting home with their captain going to extremes to get there himself, killing them slowly like with Scylla. They know that deep down the whole time Odysseus wanted to get home himself mainly, only bringing the crew because he cared out of the kindness of his heart, and now that his heart has changed they know they won't get to Ithaca if the gods keep messing around (and they do). This post pointed out that Eurylochus was likely just trying to provide for the crew and himself in their final moments before another trap emerges and Odysseus decides to continue to sacrifice his men if he feels it has to be done again. Eurylochus isn't dumb, he knows their goose is cooked if they kill the cow, especially with Ody in his ear telling him, but they'll die either way, in the hand of the gods or Ody. They will die and not see home, but at least they can die not starving, and go on for a bit longer. They had nothing to lose. Eurylochus had doubted Odysseus this whole time and he does so till the end. When Eurylochus says, "But we'll die", it's not a plea to stay alive, it's him confirming out loud that Odysseus will not choose his men over Penelope and Telemachus. He's reaffirming to Ody that they'll die; almost like he's finishing Ody's sentence "I have to see her". Odysseus couldn't say it, but Eurylochus could since he'd known they'd died for so long already. In the live stream animatic, the crew attempting to kill Odysseus near the end of "Thunder Bringer" isn't them trying to escape their fate, but trying to bring Ody down with them so Ody won't get his choice. They've long accepted the fact that Ody isn't to be trusted and they all are going to die, but Ody is, for lack of a better word I can think of, cheating in the crew's eyes by having an out thanks to Zeus. In their view of fairness, they all have to die if they aren't getting home. It's a last attempt at a mutiny. It fails because that's not how Zeus wants his game to work, and he gets his will.

They are all puppets of the fate the gods have chosen, whether that fate benefits them or not.

(The only "exception" to the "Will of the gods" rule so far is Ody and the baby, since Jay has said it's "ambiguous" whether or not the baby is spared. If not exactly by being dropped, I'm sure he'd die some other way honestly because the gods want that. It'll probably come up again in a later saga—"ambiguous" is too cryptic of a word to use when everyone assumed he died in the first saga)

This is all just my take, by the way, no one has to agree with me.

[nikoisme]

honestly i think epic!ctimene and epic!odysseus would never get to make up. i do have faith that their odyssey versions would eventually come around to being close to each other again, but epic!odysseus? i believe he wouldn't be able to ever look her in the eyes again

Well, it all depends on how you would characterize ctimene, especially epic!ctimene.

We see that epic!odysseus feels a lot more guilt, and, while his actions remain acknowledged, he is ultimately forgiven (see: song 40). Kind of driving home Epic's idea that Odysseus was justified in his decision to sacrifice his crew in order to get home. But that also makes it all the more complicated, as epic!Odysseus actively decided to let the rest of his crew die so he could return home. And while yes, Zeus did punish them ultimately because Eurylochus slaughtered the cow, Odysseus had the option to choose between himself and his crew returning home. So, in similar matter Ctimene would maybe also have the same capacity for forgiveness (seeing the decision her brother made) - but then again, it would also make sense to contrast Penelope's forgiveness by having her hurt and furious. Because it's your own little sister, who you have known since you were kids, who condemns your actions. I think in epic, she would end up angry either way - if it was her husband returning, she would grieve her brother and vice versa. She would lose either way. So I definitely see that epic!Ctimene has the potential to be incredibly hurt.

In the odyssey, odysseus does to get all of his men home as best as he could, i think. He did not openly say "yeah, kill these guys I need to get home." So here, Eurylochus died because of Zeus' punishment, and not by Odysseus' choice to have him killed by Zeus (albeit for the same reason). Epic and odyssey versions of Odysseus are so different, and odyssey!Odysseus very well has more tendencies to lie and trick and decieve than epic!Odysseus. So Ctimene would also know that her brother could also be lying about things, as he is the only man alive to return from the journey. What are the chances he changed the story in his favor, to make himself more justified? But in my mind, odyssey!Ctimene, while happy that her brother returned, would always be bitter. However, I think both of them would never have completely forgiven Odysseus, because there would always be that "what if you could have actually saved him?"

Long story short; I think that both epic and odyssey versions of Ctimene would have been very, very hurt by the whole thing. It just depends on how you're viewing it, because the backgrounds and causes of the reactions depend on the version. I definitely see where you're coming from, though!

[rosegoldenatlas]

GUYS GUYS YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE THUNDER SAGA IS INSANE I AM IN LOVE.

My sources for all information not in the lyrics are from the animatics and notes given or commissioned by Mr Jalapeño himself.

Spoilers for Epic the Musical: Thunder Saga under the cut

FIRST SONG

Okay so a siren (the mermaid kind not bird kind big sad) is tryna trick Odysseus into thinking she's his wife. He plays along long enough to find out that the only way to avoid Poseidon is to go through Scylla's lair.

SECOND SONG

Then he suddenly reveals that him and his crew had captured all of the other sirens. They had seen an empty ship on their way and plunged their ears with bees wax so he could resist the song. Then he tells his crew to chop off the sirens tails and dump them into the water. Bro.

THIRD SONG

They go to Scylla's lair and Eurylochus reveals that he opened the wind bag while Odysseus fell asleep. He's super sorry and obviously regrets it. Odysseus tells Eurylochus to light six torches and he (presumably) gives each one to a different man. While they travel through Scylla's lair each head eats one man holding a torch. They row for their lives and escape Scylla's lair.

FOURTH SONG

Eurylochus calls Odysseus out begging him to tell them that he had not planned for that to happen. He recounts every time Erylochus and the crew had put full trust into their captain such as the cyclops and Circe. But now he sacrifices his men and runs like a coward? Odysseus reveals that he planned for this and Eurylochus pulls out his sword. Odysseus asks he lower his weapon but he refuses. He says that if Odysseus wants all of the power he must carry all of the blame. Eurylochus and Odysseus duel and just as Odysseus begins to win, a different crew member stabs Odysseus. Odysseus passes out. When he wakes they are on an island and Ody is tied to a statue. Cattle surround the vast plains. Eurylochus reveals that the crew has been starving and is delirious from hunger. Odysseus warns Eury not to kill the cattle as they are on the island of the sun god. Erylocus slits a cattle's throat. Odysseus finally unties himself and is commanding that the sail far away from the island. The cattle were immoral friends of Helios. They sail as fast as they can. They are not fast enough

FIFTH SONG

Zeus shows up, (supposedly) sent by Helios to punish the crew. Zues speaks of pride to Odysseus and asks why he thinks that if he asks the captain to choose between himself and his crew, that the crew would lose. He begins to taunt and strike fear into Odysseus and his crew before asking him to choose. Either the crew or himself will die today. Odysseus must choose who. Voices of the crew and Penelope wrack Odysseus's mind before Eurylochus interrupts with just the word 'captain?' Odysseus turns away, saying that he 'has to see her' (Penelope) Eurylochus says that the entire crew would die. Without a word Odysseus chooses the crew to die. Within a moment the crew has taken out blades and weapons, not to kill Zeus, but to kill Odysseus. Zues strikes down the ship with a bolt of lightning and the last frame is of the entire crew- and Odysseus in the water drowning

PERSONALLY I'm with Eurylochus as per usual. Odysseus is just being a selfish lil bitch now. Rip Eury you shall be missed.

[scrumptiousfoxglitter]

Honestly same. Granted though, I think some Eurylochus haters hate him because of his 'hypocrisy'. The guy's introduction had him willing to raid the Lotus Eaters without much thought, establishing him as an "Act now, think later" type of guy. And when bringing up Eurylochus's sins, they usually point to the Circe Saga, where he was willing to abandon his crew at Circe's Island. So in my boy Eury's defense...

Eurylochus has always been for the crew, even if he wasn't always thinking straight, which is probably why his 'instrument' is his crew as backing vocals. His methods were questionable/misguided at times, but the intent has always been the safety of his men. Before opening the bag, he was more wary of Odysseus's orders. But afterwards, he put more faith into our boy Ody, because he had no reason not to. He didn't open the bag thinking it would screw everything up, my guy probably really thought there was something valuable in there, or was curious as to what Odysseus was hiding. It was stupid and brash, but you can see why he would do it, as well as why Odysseus felt the way he did, because not opening the bag would've been easier too. Odysseus literally told the crew what was in the bag, but it didn't save them in the end (someone else likely would've opened the bag, but that doesn't really matter right now).

At Circe's Island, he listened to Odysseus when he ordered him to take a scouting troop around the mysterious island, which ended with Circe transforming some of the crew into pigs. Eurylochus did want to leave, but given the circumstances, most people would! His scouting troop was taken hostage by a mysterious sorceress with potent magical abilities, and so far no being with those traits had their best interest in mind. In his mind, it was a death wish, and had Hermes not shown up, he would've been right, because they couldn't have taken her on, and they had other crew members to worry about. It was literally a stroke of deus ex machina.

Of course Eurylochus was gonna feel betrayed by Odysseus sacrificing six men. Eurylochus is the voice of the crew, and Odysseus was supposed to be their wise and cunning leader. Up to this point, they had no reason to believe he had nothing but good intentions for them, as evident by the "No more of us deceased" lyric. Odysseus has made mistakes that ended up costing some of their lives, but never on purpose, and never had he let them die without a fight. Nobody but Odysseus went into Scylla's lair knowing what would happen, but they'd learned to put their faith into Odysseus, even when Eurylochus noticed something was off when Odysseus was quieter than usual, because when has he ever given them a reason not to? This is the same guy that was willing to fight a sorceress for his crew not that long ago! From their perspective, it came without warning, and according to the animatics, Eury had literally been one of the men supposed to die (also either the rest were selected by Eurylochus because he trusted and liked them and Odysseus didn't want to be involved, or Odysseus himself chose who, like Eurylochus, he thought was going to be a liability. Either way, kinda messed up!). If your captain is willing to kill anyone to speed up the journey home, you'd feel a bit betrayed too.

Eurylochus killing the cattle is debatably his least redeemable sin. Odysseus pleaded with him, warning him of what would happen, but he did it anyway. And I think he did it because he'd lost any and all hope. Everyone's starving, the vast majority of his friends are dead, the gods want them dead, his captain actively tried to kill him, he hasn't seen his home, his family, in 12 years or so, and who knows when they would've found any more food again? Who's to say that if he didn't kill the cattle he, along with everyone else, wouldn't have a drawn out death via starvation? They probably could've found another island that didn't have a statue of Helios/maybe Apollo, but would they even have the strength to continue by then? At this point my guy just wants it all to be over. Not saying he should've done it, but also, I can see why he would all things considered. One could say he's just a man.

Eurylochus is far from being perfect and a saint. But to say he was completely in the wrong, at least in my personal interpretation, does a disservice to the moral complexity of Epic and what makes it so good. No one person is directly to blame for everything that happened. Polities's willingness to see the good in the world ended up with him trusting the wrong people, leading to his death and many others, which also led to the domino effect of Poseidon's never ending grudge against the crew. While it was Polities's naivety that killed initially, it was Odysseus's arrogance that caused him to shout his name to the cyclops he had just blinded, which let Poseidon know who to look for. And I don't think I need to reiterate what Eurylochus did. In none of these cases was harm intended, but good intentions can only get a sailor and his crew so far.

If we were to blame someone though, I'd blame Zeus. He seems to be behind everything, directly or indirectly, apparently.

anni are you anti-eurylochus? Because I know some people who are and it hurts me to my soul 😔😔😔😔 the crew would have died anyways regardless if he opened the bag. He was just hungry. Eury is just misunderstood 😢😢😢😢😢

If Eurylochus doesn’t have any fans, that means I am dead. To be honest, I was pretty neutral when it came to Eurylochus up to the Thunder Saga. I was never interested in him as a character, but when I saw all the slander, I was like, "HE NEEDS PROTECC!"

Seriously, I have a whole essay in my head about why all this slander came out of nowhere. But to sum it up, I think this is a case of scapegoating. After the Thunder Saga, we finally have a character that people can blame for Odysseus' misfortune instead of… well… Odysseus himself.

It will be a long post. I just need to sit down and actually write it…