#if there's any One Relationship i would consider The Relationship it's laios and marcille since they experience the most growth

[athina-blaine]

genuinely don't understand people who gripe about someone getting into dunmesh for m/m pairings as opposed to f/f when none of them are even close to being the main point of the series

[room-surprise]

Analysis of Laios and how he hugs/interacts with people, pre and post-manga.

Reading body language in real life is basically pseudo-science most of the time, however, these aren't candid photographs of real people I'm analyzing, they are drawings purposefully made by Ryoko Kui to tell us something about Laios and his relationships with other characters.

These illustrations are designed on purpose to communicate information. So what do I think they say?

Here's the illustration of how things are at the start of the manga:

NAMARI AND CHILCHUCK

They're both rough towards Laios, expressing displeasure with him, using violent physical touch to get his attention or punish him for something.

TOSHIRO

His reaction to Laios is totally passive. He isn't turned towards Laios, but he isn't turning away either. He's staring up into space with a look of discomfort, suggesting he wishes Laios would leave him alone... But that he is too polite to openly reject him.

We know this is partially a cultural issue: because Toshiro is Japanese, he considers it catastrophically rude to tell someone "no" in a blunt way. He is trying to communicate his discomfort and disinterest to Laios, but Laios isn't understanding Toshiro's signals.

Meanwhile, Laios is turning his whole body towards Toshiro, his eyes are wide open, he's smiling. He's very eager to interact, in a way that he isn't with any other character on this page except Falin.

MARCILLE

They are having a neutral interaction. Neither of them seems excited or interested in each other, but they are talking seriously. Marcille is gesturing at Laios in a way that seems scolding, they are standing at a polite distance, and Laios is standing at his full height, perhaps even leaning/straining away from Marcille slightly. There is a physical object (Marcille's staff) acting as a barrier, and it's physically pushing Laios away from her.

But it is worth noting that he has his hand on the staff, suggesting that he's not letting himself be pushed away any further, that he's having a reciprocal interaction with Marcille, not a passive one where he just stands there and gets lectured. Laios is participating and engaged.

FALIN AND SENSHI

The only people having unambiguously positive interactions with Laios on this page, which makes sense since they are the two people who are the most friendly towards him at the start of the manga.

Laios and Falin are touching hands, smiling and their bodies are turned towards each other, showing enthusiasm and a mutual interest. This is less intense than the hug in the post-manga illustrations, which maybe suggests that there's something distant and unresolved between them here, like resentment and guilt.

Laios and Senshi are closer to each other than Laios and Marcille. Laios is sitting or crouched down to get closer to Senshi's height, and they are both smiling and turned towards each other. Senshi may even be laughing!

Here's the "post-manga" image...

What a huge difference!

All of these interactions are basically positive, so I'll just go left to right, top to bottom. Also for some of these, we can't see Laios' friends full reactions, so I'll focus on what we can see, and how Laios is behaving.

SENSHI

They share a gentle hug. They both have their arms wrapped around each other, so the desire to touch is mutual. Laios bends to reach Senshi, and has a calm, content smile on his face while they hug. Laios rests his head on top of Senshi's head, showing trust and intimacy and a desire to be physically even closer to Senshi than just hugging. Senshi isn't pulling away, so I think that's a good indicator that he doesn't mind it, and possibly even likes it!

Which is a big change from how he felt violated by Laios touching his chest earlier in the manga, even though Laios was trying to heal him... I think Senshi isn't someone that easily lets others touch him, so this is a big improvement.

CHILCHUCK

The size difference makes this hug awkward, but that's not the only reason! Laios has both hands on Chilchuck and he is bending down in order to reach him, suggesting that he wants to embrace his friend, however Chilchuck is not straining to reach Laios, and he is only using one hand to touch him, suggesting that Chilchuck doesn't want to embrace too closely. Chilchuck is willing to allow a hug, and he is willing to touch Laios back, but he doesn't want it as much as Laios does.

I think Laios is aware of this, because he isn't trying to push the hug to a higher level of intensity. He's holding back to the level he thinks Chilchuck is comfortable with.

MARCILLE

They share a happy, but not overly intimate hug. Their chests and bodies are pressed together, but they are turning their heads away from each other.

Laios' hands are resting side by side on Marcille's back, and it seems like she is hugging him back in a similarly loose way. His arms are not overlapping, and they aren't squeezing or grabbing each other, just holding on lightly while pressing their chests together.

TOSHIRO

What a fascinating set of drawings!

I'm going to assume that the color drawing is what happens first, and the black and white line drawing is what happens afterwards, solely because if the black and white drawing is meant to just be Laios' fantasy of hugging Toshiro, then surely he would imagine Toshiro hugging him back enthusiastically, and not a more passive reaction like Kui drew.

Kui wrote a note here to remind readers that hugging is not considered normal in "the East", where Toshiro is from, to give context to why the character seems so uncomfortable.

Laios is approaching Toshiro at high speed, arms open and reaching for Toshiro, eyes wide, with a happy expression. He clearly wants to wrap Toshiro up in a big, enthusiastic hug.

Toshiro is sweating with discomfort, and he has a hand pressed against Laios' chest, attempting to stop him… However, the arm is not extended and his elbow is bent at an acute angle, and it looks as if no force is being applied. Toshiro perhaps feels a need to offer a token protest, but he isn't really trying to stop Laios.

In the black and white hug drawing, Laios has both arms wrapped tight around Toshiro, much tighter than Senshi, Chilchuck or Marcille, and he's pressing their bodies together and resting his head on Toshiro's shoulder. He's turning his face towards Toshiro's neck, and smiling serenely.

Toshiro's body is stiff, he's sweating, and his arm is held at a rigid 90 degree angle… But he isn't using it to push Laios away, just holding it uselessly at his side. Perhaps he is half-way towards returning the hug, thinking about lifting his arm a little higher and resting his hand on Laios' back, but he isn't sure if he wants to do that yet.

Toshiro is bending his body towards Laios, and allowing himself to be pressed against the other man. He's staring out into space with a neutral expression that suggests either discomfort or surprise. I think we're meant to understand that he has given up fighting against the foreign, offensive hug, realizing that it isn't offensive for Laios, and therefore it might be okay to allow it...and it might actually be more offensive if he rejected the hug.

FALIN

Falin has thrown herself at Laios with considerable force, and Laios has his arms overlapping across Falin's back. They are both squeezing each other tightly with their arms, and even Laios' hands are gripping Falin tightly. There is an overjoyed look on Laios' face, and I think this embrace shows how Laios has healed through the course of the story.

KABRU

Since Kabru is one of Laios' newest friends, it makes sense that the hug would be the least intimate.

The two of them have a complicated relationship in the manga, but the complete world bible shows that Laios has finally accepted that Kabru is genuinely his friend and not just trying to use or manipulate him. He's made an effort in the post-canon to reach out and try to be Kabru's friend in return, and Kabru has forgiven Laios for not listening to him in the past.

Kabru is turning his body away from Laios, which puts his shoulder towards Laios' shoulder at a perpendicular angle, forcing distance between them. Laios is fully facing Kabru, and has one arm behind his back, a hand resting on Kabru's shoulder, and another hand resting on his chest. The hand on the chest is attached to an arm that is bent at an obtuse angle, holding Kabru at a distance, with no indication that he is trying to pull Kabru in. Both hands are relaxed, like in the Marcille hug, indicating that Laios' grasp is loose.

This arm position is pretty unusual for an embrace. It allows Laios to keep Kabru at a distance where he can see him, and control where he moves, and how close he's able to get to Laios… and Kabru isn't returning the hug in any way, instead allowing himself to be touched and held in place.

Their bodies aren't pressed together, and Kabru's arm is down at his side, neither encouraging Laios nor pushing him away.

Laios has a big smile on his face, and he looks enthusiastic. Kabru on the other hand has a calm smile. In my opinion his expression is less enthusiastic than Marcille's.

I think Laios can't tell how Kabru feels about the hug, and so he's holding himself back. He's not blinded by emotion like he is with Toshiro, so he's not flinging himself at Kabru… And because Kabru is such a new friend, Laios is also probably hesitant to get too close to him.

There may also be some lingering trust issues, if Laios still isn't completely certain if Kabru genuinely likes him or not. Laios has often had trouble telling if people really like him, or if they are just being polite (Toshiro), or using him (former party members), so it makes sense that it would take awhile for him and Kabru to become truly comfortable with each other..

[kelsonius]

What I find really interesting about Dungeon Meshi is how it explores the role of humans/humanoids in an ecosystem and what is okay to consume.

Take the kelpie for example. Senshi is attached to the kelpie that frequently joins him while he's fishing, even naming her. Marcille also thinks it's cute and supports the idea of Senshi riding it. After that doesn't turn out well Senshi apologises while delivering the killing blow, appearing remorseful. Nevertheless, he himself sets out to salvage usable ingredients from the now deceased kelpie and even Marcille uses some of its fat for soap.

That is an example of exactly the type of relationship I think humans should have with livestock animals. I'm mostly vegan (occasional exceptions made for fish and eggs) both because of the environmental and animal rights issues with large scale livestock farming/the meat industry. However, I very much support a harmonious approach shown by indigenous peoples and small scale farming for example. Where, similar to Senshi and the kelpie, the animal lives a good life and is loved by its keepers until it is killed and all its parts are utilised.

There is also something to be said about people's involvement in the slaughter of animals so they respect the origin of their favourite products, like Marcille with the soap, since that is likely one of the reasons people currently consume animal products in such copious amounts. I regrettably didn't save the post in my drafts, but I saw someone on here talk about how far removed we are in the west from the origin of our meat products and how absurd it is that people are disgusted by a fish served with its head for example.

Meanwhile, Laios and Chilchuck are arguing over whether it's okay to eat a fish-man since it resembles a humanoid. Laios naturally wants to eat everything but Chilchuck has reservations when it comes to humanoids. This comes up in later episodes as well, where the rest of the crew appears to have fewer reservations since the creatures are being killed in self-defense and they're now seeing the utility of not letting resources go to waste.

Now I wonder if they'll take it as far as cannibalism, but humanoids are already a close metaphor. In any case, it is a great way to showcase how the arbitrary values we attribute to different species influences what we consider to be acceptable food, even though it's all just meat. I mean, I could never slaughter a cat for example but somehow would be fine with eating human flesh...

[saccharineomens]

i've been poking at this too long to care how visually appealing it is anymore. My headcanons for the main characters' sexualities, based on canon information! (has no bearing on ships.) Canon speculation below the cut.

marcille (bi): fascinated by romance and loves romance. we only see her show explicit interest in a male (fictional character (General Halleus from the book series she loves)), but i don't think she's fully straight.

falin (aro? ace? lesbian? genderqueer?): falin's only interest in relationships in canon is 'she considered accepting shuro's proposal because she was afraid nobody else would want her, but felt it'd be unfair to him because she had no feelings for him'. i consider whether she's aroace or a lesbian or maybe bi/pan, and she also seems like she might have some genderqueer feelings, based on some of her discomfort with her body and wearing certain types of femme clothing. (Also the fact that she‘s part male dragon.) Since she ends the story going on a journey for herself, it feels like she'll finally get the chance to figure out what she wants.

laios (pan, demi): he hasn't shown explicit interest in men, but similar to marcille, i don't feel he's fully straight. He’s aesthetically attracted to monsters, at the very least, so gender probably doesn’t factor in for him. romance/sex just don’t seem to be much of a high priority to him in general, but he did think his ex-fiance was cute and didn't seem uncomfortable with the idea of marriage (just seemed unhappy with being trapped in his hometown), so i feel like demisexuality fits him well.

About his succubus: He was very noticeably not stopped in his tracks by it like Chilchuck and Marcille, but that could possibly be because it just….looked exactly like Marcille, not an obvious fantasy. He started blushing and stammering heavily when it turned into a monster, which like….this boy is definitely a furry/monsterfucker, if anything, but that doesn’t speak on his attraction to actual humans.

I think it speaks for something that the succubi are able to literally read minds and craft the perfect fantasy for their specific target. And for Laios, it wasn’t just “his friend Marcille”. It was a version of his friend Marcille that wasn’t grossed out by monsters, didn’t think he was weird for wanting to be one, and was able to turn Laios into one. It was a Marcille who understood him at his deepest level that made him become a blushing, stammering mess to rival Chilchuck. Which is why I think he’s Demi, and needs a strong emotional connection with someone before he finds them attractive.

kabru (pan): his special interest is people, and he's bold enough with his sexuality to kiss rin despite not being in a relationship with her. so being pan/bi feels appropriate.

chilchuck (bi): he has a wife, and they were childhood friends, so he's definitely allo. but his comments and behavior towards senshi makes me suspect he might be bi, and just never considered the possibility due to being in a committed relationship.

senshi (gay, ace): this is 90% off of vibes. he keeps to himself in the dungeon and doesn't seem to have any need for social company, he's a complete hermit. Being ace makes sense to me, but so would him just having a low social drive. His succubus was 'a woman he hadn't seen since he was a child', but his journal implies it wasn't a romantic/sexual attraction.

namari (bi/lesbian): she is at the very least attracted to women, given her behavior with kiki, but she does make a point to say that kaka is also attractive to her, and her friends at the bar tease her about Kaka being her “new” boyfriend (implying previous boyfriends).

shuro: the token straight (in love with falin, asked her to marry him). i love you shuro <3 (but i can also see him being into men. there's no evidence to the contrary)

izutsumi: aroace. literally no question. her succubus is her mother.

[imaybe5tupid]

King Laios marriage headcanons! (nothing to do with any shipping don’t get excited)

Laios doesnt really gaf about getting married like that, but marriage is such a powerful political tool there is so much pressure. And Kabru, the absolute legend manages to spin a situation where Melini can benefit from that, whilst not infringing on Laios’ really serious reluctance to not just be forced into the kind of situation he ran away from home to escape (or at least as much as is possible since he’s trapped as the King of Melini 😭). 

And that is for Laios to have multiple concubines from noble or semi-noble or merchant families, emperor style, who he doesnt sleep with/have a romantic relationship with at all! (but who all keep getting pregnant and having children anyway hahaha) Laios treats the concubines with the same professional demeanor as he did as a party leader, and it makes his relationships with them much more easy than one in a potential marriage would have been. Also it’s a way to make many new political connections with many places at once, and gain that bargaining chip that any of them could technically be elevated to a wife at some point.  Whilst also keeping the political card on hand that Laios can still get a wife from outside of his concubines, from another powerful place. Kind of Duke Leto from Dune style. Like these are women who would not ordinarily be considered for any kind of high marriage for varied reasons (age, sexuality, gender, illness, low in the family pecking order, some drama in their family etc. things like that), but because of the strangeness of the situation, and political potential they are sent over to Melini.

The concubines get to basically just have comfortable free life paid for them, with the ability to act completely freely so long as any romantic relationships are discreet and any children they end up having are nominally/officially fathered by Laios. Also would be cute if some of them are like Laios in that this is a chance for them to live a free life away from a home they’d rather leave behind. All these concubines and their retinues coming over would also quickly fill up the empty castle, and bring a lot of life to it. 

Would also be kind of funny if the kids all mostly have appearances/racial mixes that make Laios being their biological father completely imposssible lmfaoo. And Kabru the G.O.A.T and actual recessive trait/atavism haver spins like obscure novel scientific theories why its actually possible and how dare you speak such treason. But of course everybody knows the kids are of course not Laios’, it’s just not spoken aloud in formal situations. Like the people of Melini are like look at our royal heirs dawg we are not getting a hereditary dynasty. Since these babies are like freaking half oni or half dwarf or half elf. or fully oni, fully dwarf, fully elf if the mother is the non-tallman etc. 

Also i like to think that one of the concubines can be from the western continent so that Kabru can have a western continent community connection in Melini ❤️ Like maybe one of the concubines from the Western Continent has a retinue that Kabru becomes close to and its all very culturally healing for him, even if it’s of course not quite the same area. Soothe that part of his heart which is seeking something missing, missing something left behind (in Utaya). Would also be amusing for Marcille to potentially have some flopventures in dykeland with these women too.

Laios likes hanging out with the concubines and learning from them since they come from many distant places, and though hes detached from the idea of being a father or husband (I guess he wouldn’t even be anyone’s husband bc they’re “just” concubines), he still tries to be in their lives even though its still not really As A Father or Romantic Partner but as like The King/their friend /the guy their mom’s work for. 

And because I’m a cyclical domestic drama sicko, I like the idea of it creating another situation for Laios to be something of an imperfect, somewhat distant, “father” and “romantic partner” like his father was, even if its borne from completely different situations and with completely different approach. Because as much as he can become friends with the concubines and their children, their dependence on the tangible power granted by their relationships to him will make it so there will always be parts of himself that he holds back, compared to say with Marcille or Kabru whom he also works closely with but who have a different relationship to him. Like Laios will always be something of an enigma to these women and to the children who are nominally his.  Particularly since they will never have known him as he was before he ended up trapped in the position of King, which he sorely does not want and is expressly unhappy with. Like here is their partner or their father, the King who achieved such fantastical things, but who ultimately, despite the meaningful loving friendships in his life, is a deeply unfulfilled and melancholy man.

[fumifooms]

Dandan x Asivia

Dubbed dansivia. Confused as to who either of these are? Here’s a Dandan comp and Asivia wise this post is close enough for now

There is a brave visionary on ao3 and they’re so right

Ok first of all let’s address the theory:

Dandan is indeed the only Laios party member not pictured here (besides Chilchuck himself but we saw he didn’t like her which would contradict this anyways). I keep wanting to add "that we know of" or some other caveat but honestly not even no, it’s never implied or mentioned they had yet another party member and that makes sense since we saw the party’s inception right up to its current party composition.

… So… Mystery solved right out of the gate? I dunno, it feels weird to me to claim Dandan hates Laios, but if he kept it under wraps enough or reasoned with himself about it I could see it. Laios and Dandan were coworkers from their gold peeling days, and so when Laios left to try a career in dungeon diving Dandan joined him.

They seem very standard coworkers that get along well enough to me, far from skulls emoji energy, but yeah there is a case to be made on both overt strong dislike and repressed strong dislike ends. But maybe the true beef started after he left the party even, especially if he fancies Asivia and kept up with the party’s drama that went down with her, though the chart does imply it was the work dynamic while he was still in the party because of context. But, believing that Dandan likes her and Asivia considered getting with him like the other men of the party, Asivia would have literally sidelined Dandan to pursue Laios. And Laios doesn’t even realize her attempts at seduction? Ok yeah the hate is plausible nvm. Also we can keep in mind that this is Chilchuck’s chart and he could have more insight on Dandan’s feelings than the average coworker since he’s his friend. It def fleshes him more out with implications. He’s professional he keeps unnecessary shit to himself. It’d be weird to me if the relationship chart was made without Kui thinking it through, or retconning it, it is the canon we get so it’s interesting to ponder. Kui giving us secret romantic drama for free <3

Speaking of what’s not free. Ok maybe Dan does dislike Laios, do business introductions really cost money… I mean I respect the hustle but. So Dandan is heavily implied to be the one to introduce Asivia to the party. The only other mage was Marcille and well we know how that went. "A real cutie". Yeah. I bet. 👀

This is the most interesting dansivia part to me, they did meet previously to the party, both doing what they do best, networking. Dan helped Asivia find a job, how did they meet and how did that go? What if she had an infamous reputation already, how much did they get acquainted… There’s a lot of leeway for fun here

Gorgeous hustling but lazy manipulator that seeks a fortunate husband x slight womanizer hustling & hardworking poor guy that’s been around in business for too long to be played… Both work a lot but like to take it easy when they can. Tavern flirtations and having met while networking and "I can hook you with a job" (staring and smiling too much) and "Oh Dandan, you’re so capable and knowledgeable about the Island, could you help me out~"

Manipulator hustler seductress x laidback hustler flirt… Social butterflies, streets smarts in different yet similar ways… Observant x observant………. She’s very harsh and drops people/her damsel act at the first second she can’t get something out of it anymore and I think he’d be so into that. Dandan liking strongminded women. Women who kinda play dirty. Makes him respect them and want to pursue them help…

And like, takes on Asivia differ nowadays but I do need her to mean this shit for this, this is what she's unabashedly about. She is just a woman trying to make it in this world but working people’s the name of her game. Whatever reason you give her, she was taking advantage of Laios and trying to get a marriage with any decent profitable guy she could. She knows what she’s doing and she doesn’t look the least bit remorseful. A girl who knows what she wants and chases it, rawr ⬅️ Dandan voice

They both fall for each other but neither can admit it because they know it’s just temporary, she’ll go look for a well-off tallman husband eventually. Messy situationship go. Can they even have a good ending together. It’s all only ever nice in the present moments… She’ll leave he can’t offer her anything but himself and a very humble lifestyle, she’ll leave she can’t settle for that she won’t, he knows that and it’s part of why he liked her in the first place. Oughhhhh

Ohhh to be underdogs, settling for a humble life & being content with that vs unapologetically ambitious and chases that life and comfort she seeks, which in turn makes him admire her…….. But even if she inspires him to chase what he wants, she can’t give it to him…………..

Putting this on blast bc they’re great thoughts

Because I’m me I’m trying to make them reach a happy long term ending together and it’s not working… Which is more fun tbh. I shall ponder this puzzle…

Casanova Dandan is so important to me now. Chilchuck’s in a separation slump & faithfulness oath to the wind but Dandan, good friend dandan? He’s living he’s thriving he’s pulling

I want fics of them meeting & networking. He’s very up to the news in the dungeon goer community… All I’m saying is I can see Dandan bartering for a shot with her in exhange for information or helping her out find jobs, knowing she’s after guys to marry too 🤭 I think they should flirt in a tavern. I think they should make eyes at each other over glasses and exchanging business convos and leaving it all in the implied and unspoken

Dansivia is getting too real to me

The fics are fun go read ‘em

[possamble]

do you think falin went on dates/potentially even hooked up with people periodically during those 4 years she and marcille were separated? i know you ascribe to has-been-pining-since-childhood falin (and tbh so do i), but i find it interesting that there were at least Two people interested in falin if we are to believe chilchuck's party relations chart. at the very least, she considered toshiro's proposal -- even if her intentions for doing so were rooted less in mutual interest and more in her fear of being alone -- and it makes me wonder if anyone else were to like... show interest in falin, what would the circumstances have to be for her to be an active participant/if she would've reciprocated if it was casual enough (because i can't see her getting into a serious relationship with anyone while she's still in love with marcille -- unless?)

i could see it going either way. girl who can't believe people could actually LIKE her that way because she struggles with liking herself (despite probably being the most beloved character in canon, though her ostracization in her hometown and the magic academy could explain why...... wait hold on i'M GETTING SIDETRACKED!!) vs. girl's first time being freed from an authority's expectations going a little wild at, well, a taste of freedom (plus a dose of delayed sexual awakening due to prior ostracization + "don't think of marcille like that don't think of marcille like that doN'T. DO NOT." double whammy)

idk idk idk! i find it SO interesting that she's so beloved in canon but is simultaneously very passive about it? i really love how a little creature explores what a more proactive falin could look like, and i'm super curious about your thoughts on what falin's love life would look like/if a love life would even exist decoupled from her newfound dragon instincts and marcille

honestly this is the one aspect im never sure about bc... i've seen other people establish that falin's gone and kissed or gotten involved with some of the other girls at the academy, or other adventurers. and i respect that! mostly bc it's a way of painting falin as more independent and mature than the canon material, and i can't knock that.

but i guess? idk. she was as clueless about shuro's feelings as laios was until he actually proposed to her. she also believed that she wouldn't get another proposal, so there's an element of her not realizing that she's particularly attractive. that, or she's... still somehow working by her hometown logic, which im assuming is the old "if you're not married by your teenage years you're considered a really bad marriage candidate for men" type thing, considering how much of a small town it was/the fact that she and laios already had marriages arranged from a young age.

an intensely auDHD woman, who has spent all of her independent life focusing on at least one person she was inseparably close to, not having had any romantic experience at the age of 23? that's very likely. personally i'd consider it more likely than the alternatives, but that's just my opinion lol

[laikabu]

personally I like to think that they would have more than one child:

1. laios would like his son to have an unconditional companion in his life, perhaps he would project his own relationship with his sister onto his children's possible relationship. in any case, i think that his sister being the person (or in this case one of them) that he values ​​most in his life could be a decisive factor when it comes to having more children

2. kabru embracing his heritage. maybe this is not his way of thinking when it comes to having offspring, but i like to think that he wants the utaya people to have more possibilities of remaining over time

3. i can totally see them having an "accident" (poor family planning) and having another child, i guess after that they wouldn't mind having at least another one

i suppose that a point against would be that laios feels very guilty for not being as present as he wants in makalu's life, but perhaps with the passing of the years it is not so difficult for him to combine both lives

i feel that if they had another child it would be when makalu is already relatively old (let's say, in his teens) since i see them deliberating whether expanding the family is a good option and they want to wait until their child does not need so much attention (or that's what they think) and laios is more comfortable and more prepared in his role as the king before test the waters

and one last thing and this is more of a self-indulgent idea but i would love to see them having a little girl that marcille would love to spoil, i feel like it would be her time to have a close relationship with her nephew? (don't know marcille and falin's relationship status in this au) but it would be nice anyway. even if they had a girl it could go either way and maybe it would completely disappoint her which would also be fun. anything sounds good!

SORRY for the long response. the labru family has implanted worms in my brain 😭

OMG NO PROBLEM!! im so happy you gave a lot of thought to it. i was also thinking about kabru wanting utaya to live on with his descendants. and of course a niece

marcille and falin arent officially married yet(they have a lot of time, falin has a longer life span now) but he does consider marcille his aunt

[cenvast]

hi hi! i stumbled across ur kabru x toshiro stuff when browsing one of their tags and im sooo hooked now after reading ur explanation post that i gave ur fanfic a read too, love it!! ur story and posts about them made me have some questions, i hope its not too much!

the fanfic mentioned kabru in a kurta when toshiro thinks about their hypothetical wedding. is there a certain type of wedding u imagine them having?

on the same note: would they end up having one? or would they rather stick with a close relationship?

would they think about adoption? is their statuses keep them from adopting because they would be busy?

would toshiro notice kabru spiraling over the thought of utaya and what happened?

srry if this is a lot, i just love this pairing now!

Tysm for reading my writing!! I'm so honored that I got you into Kabshiro <3 And dw, I'm more than willing to answer any questions about my kabshiro meta or "debts and delusions" (this fic is 18+/nsfw)! The fic is a capsule of many of my dunmeshi hcs, so I can always expand on it hehe

I'll put my answers under the cut and divide them into sections for readability!

On Marriage

I think since both of Kabru and Toshiro had traumatic upbringings, they'd be less inclined to get married or have kids quickly, but they would eventually get married.

From my understanding, feudal Japan normalized sexual relationships between samurai, but marriage was an arranged political move between a man and a woman, at least for the upper classes. Toshiro understands marriage as potentially romantic, given his interactions with Falin, but since he lacks models of same-sex marriage, pursuing marriage with Kabru would stump him at first. I think Laios and the others would clue him in that marriage can literally be whatever he and Kabru want it to be, and after a while, he'd make his peace with that.

When he becomes more secure in their relationship, he wouldn't feel the need to marry Kabru out of insecurity anymore. He would continue fantasizing about the domesticity and commitment of it all. He'd also have to work through his trauma-based fear that he'll cheat on his spouse before being willing to marry Kabru.

Toshiro would propose at around year five of their relationship. He'd recognize that he can't imagine a life without Kabru and that all the best things in his life are because he took the initiative to hold onto and voice what's (and who's) important to him. Laios would be a large contributor in encouraging their marriage with his constant reassurances of "Yes, I'll marry you two in Melini :D." Because romantic proposals weren't really a thing in feudal Japan, Toshiro's proposal would be a very agonized-over question — but just a question — he poses to Kabru in private.

I like the idea of Kabru and Toshiro attending Marcille and Falin's wedding, and their marriage being the catalyst for Toshiro deciding that he needs to marry Kabru immediately. Kabru would sense what was going on with Toshiro but give him time to approach him on his own. Out of the two of them, Kabru would be more content with not officially recognizing their relationship via marriage, but he'd still be very excited to marry Toshiro and giddy over the fact that Toshiro wants to marry him.

I imagine their wedding would be a combination of customs from Utaya and Wa and elven customs. Kabru would want to honor his mother and his hometown, and Milsiril would probably want some elven elements. The Wa customs are self-explanatory from Toshiro's end. They'd hold it in Melini with Laios officiating. I also think Toshiro would cry at their wedding because he'd be a little more healed from thinking that crying is unmanly and he'd be overwhelmed by Kabru /pos.

Here's the excerpt from the fic that you referenced:

In Toshiro's wedding fantasy, I included elements from both Indian and Japanese wedding customs. According to my quick research (which could definitely be off, so please correct me if needed), silk and/or embroidered kurtas are considered appropriate wedding attire, and Indian weddings generally involve a lot of dancing. The sea bream, red rice, and daifuku are foods traditionally eaten at Japanese weddings. There's more specificity for the Japanese customs since it's from Toshiro's POV, and in this scene, he's drawing the Indian wedding elements from conversations he's had with Kabru. Obligatory moment of silence for how ridiculous they are for discussing their cultural wedding customs while pretending like they aren't down horrendous for each other 😭

On Children

Toshiro

Prior to being with Kabru, Toshiro expected to have children; he thought he'd inherit his father's position and produce an heir. But he's always been terrified by the idea of actually raising a child because all his parental figures — his father, his mother, and Maizuru — failed spectacularly in raising him. Right after canon, he wouldn't be able to articulate where they went wrong because he's still repressing most of it, but he knows that his father's treatment of him as a failed investment or discarded amusement did not benefit him. Likewise, his mother's neglect and Maizuru's overbearing, terrifying parenting style, coupled with her expectations that he'd take his father's position one day, were not ideal.

If pinned down about it, he'd say that he'd want his child to be raised with proper emotional support — for them to feel loved unconditionally rather than valued for any position they may eventually take up, but overall, he feels ill-equipped to raise a child. Since Kabru would never pressure him into having children, Toshiro would realize that having children is an unwanted expectation his family and society placed on him. After realizing this, up until maybe his forties, he wouldn't even consider having children again because he'd fear traumatizing them like his parental figures traumatized him, and more importantly, he'd be content with his life as it is.

Kabru

By the end of canon, I don't think Kabru has had the mental space to consider having children. He'd be of the mindset that bringing a child into an unjust world would be irresponsible, especially if he's yet to accomplish his goals of equality between the races and sealing off the dungeons. But in his position as Laios' advisor, he'd feel more empowered to improve their world and raise a child in it.

However, if someone seriously approached him about having children with Toshiro, Kabru would probably have a traumatic episode. His associations with having children of his own are:

His trauma regarding monsters eating his mother and other children from Utaya

Milsiril as his adoptive mother and her inability to fully understand and meet his emotional needs due to not conceptualizing short-lived races as equals and her career rooted in elven imperialism (Sidenote: Milsiril does push back against the societal position she's been placed in, and she raised Kabru with good intentions, but impact > intent. She was still raised in elven society and an active participant in imperialism for many years)

The elves' horrible, dehumanizing treatment of Rin

The thought of having children would send him into a panic because he'd fear being killed by monsters and unable to care for his children, his children being killed by monsters, his children being mistreated by those more powerful than him, and being an unsatisfactory parent to them. Not all of his fears would be rational since he lives in Melini where Laios is a living monster repellent. But since he hasn't unpacked all of his trauma, these thoughts would come up.

After processing more of his trauma, Kabru in his thirties would be open to having children if Toshiro wanted them, but since Toshiro doesn't, it likely wouldn't happen.

If we fast forward to their forties or fifties, that's when Kabru and Toshiro might consider raising a kid. Their lives are stable. They've unpacked a lot of their childhood traumas. They have a support network and a reliable method of travel between their homes. They could do it. I still don't think they'd feel the need to have children, but if a child tumbled into their laps (I'm thinking of how Izutsumi appeared for the main party), they'd have a long, serious discussion about it and ultimately decide to raise them. Similar to Izutsumi, I could see them raising an older kid.

TL;DR: I don't think Kabshiro would adopt/have children, but after they hit middle-age, if a child fell into their lives, they would raise them.

On Utaya

I'm so glad you asked about Utaya because I wish I'd been able to explore Kabru's trauma more in "debts and delusions." He deserves an in-depth analysis of his past and to begin healing from it.

The short answer is: yes, Toshiro would definitely notice Kabru's trauma surrounding Utaya. Toshiro is fairly observant, Kabru's already opened up to him about what happened in Utaya, and when Kabru's trauma manifests outwardly, it's actually not very subtle, so it's a little shocking more people haven't tried to support him through it before. Or maybe it's unsurprising since he tries very hard to project being emotionally secure and stable.

The next step in Kabru's arc is beginning to heal from Utaya. Now that he and Toshiro have established what their relationship is and can correspond and visit each other regularly, Toshiro would have the emotional bandwidth to address Kabru's panic and nightmares and aim to support him by talking with him and encouraging him to lean on him. He'd want to return the favor of Kabru supporting him through his difficult times. He'd also feel guilty for complaining about his concerns over Falin, considering everything Kabru has gone through, but that guilt and negative tendency towards comparison could be something Toshiro works out with his other friends.

After learning to depend more on Toshiro and hopefully, on his other friends, Kabru would recognize that he should take his own advice about voicing one's wants and needs. He'd eventually have an honest conversation with Laios about his feelings on eating monsters and where those feelings come from, and that would open Laios up as another person he can be emotionally open with about his past. Because I am a strong believer in Kabru and Marcille as friends post-canon, she'd also be another person for him to lean on. Her perspective as a half-elf would be valuable for both of them. (Unrelated, but I also strongly believe in Kabru helping Marcille let go of her comphet.)

I'd also hope that with time, Kabru would realize how he's taken Rin for granted. They could actually talk about her feelings for him and unpack their traumatic upbringings together. Talking with Rin would probably be the most healing interaction for him, but it'd take a lot of work on his part. He'd have to apologize to her for being sexist, rebuild their trust after years of him shutting her out emotionally, and uncover the most difficult parts of his past with her, a friend who knows it intimately. Realistically, Rin would be willing to support him even without an apology because she suffers more than Jesus, but for the sake of her sanity and mine, he should definitely apologize to her first.

If there was ever to be a sequel to "debts and delusions," it would focus on Kabru and his healing!

₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

Thank you so much for sending this ask! I'm always willing to yap about DunMeshi and/or my writing. If you have any of other thoughts on the fic, hcs, or more questions, feel free to send them my way <3

[lorddeathofmurdermountain]

I'll do it in order.

It's not that I believe certain people's media can or can't do something. I simply don't think DUNGEON MESHI is that kind of story. It's the same shit as with Lord of the Rings all over again; some people kept insisting that Frodo and Sam were romantically interested in one another for reasons I don't like to remember, though I will admit that one is explicitly about friendship and should have left no room for interpretation.

I understand the het stuff about Marcille, hell I could even accept she's bi based on how she reacts to Falin, but I don't think this is an indication of SPECIFICALLY being into Falin. I'd freak out if any girl or guy just showed me their boobs.

As for why Marcille and Shuro? Could be a lot of things. Obviously we all know why Shuro, it's been a big plot point that he likes Falin, and I do think anyone else but Marcille wouldn't have worked just as well, but you have to understand that beyond the interpretations one might have as to why Marcille was picked, it's a common gag and even a trope in anime and manga - common enough to be used here as well. Kui couldn't have picked anyone from Shuro's party bc duh, nor from Kabru's party because they don't really know or particularly care for Falin - she couldn't have picked Laios bc his reaction wouldn't be funny (or at least it wouldn't match Shuro's own so well) and she couldn't have picked Chil or Senshi bc like neither of those two guys would've cared either.

Marcille, similarly enough to Toshiro, is shown to have a very strict sense of propriety (see also the Izutsumi sauna scene for a similar situation). Regardless of what you or I may think, we can at least agree that the reason she reacted strongly is, logically, because she thought it was improper for Falin to just let her boobs hang out like that, even if she wasn't exactly being herself at that moment. In a very meta context, the situation requires the exact reaction Marcille and Shuro have, and nobody but them two would exactly make sense.

To put simply, at least one of the reasons they were picked was because it conveniently follows the tropes of the situation.

Now, I'm sorry if I wrote a lot about just the boob scene, because I usually am not so good at being short AND convincing, and I really don't want to be mean even if I sometimes can't help myself. I don't want to make this about you or me, but about the actual story, so please excuse my previous behaviour (I also might have BPD so I might have some minor mood swings). That said, I will likely continue to be just as expansive in my reasoning going forward. If you don't like the long-windedness, I'll try to put an sort of TL;DR at the end of each talking point, which I will make bold as seen above.

Anyway. Onto the argument about following Falin. I will continue to view this from a meta standpoint, as I don't think debating what either of us consider to be "friend" or "crush" behaviour is in any way going to result in a conclusive answer - which is to say I think it has even less of a chance for either of us to convince the other. That said, since you outright asked, I feel obliged to answer - yes, I do think one might follow a really good friend out of school on an adventure. It is, in fact, another common trope. However, it's not even that simple. Marcille feels outright responsible for Falin, and there're multiple reasons for her to feel so excluding potential romantic relationships. Namely, not only is Marcille vastly older and a generally mature person who might feel worried for someone as unapologetically adventurous as Falin, she's also not a student; she's a researcher employed by the Academy which she had already graduated from some time ago. In that sense, from her very traditional and conservative views as well as a personal feeling of responsibility and a burgeoning friendship, it only makes sense for Marcille to follow Falin. Furthermore, Marcille doesn't just stay for Falin - though it's surely a big reason - she stays for the Dungeon, explicitly, for the sake of her studies and even for her dreams of having all races live equally as long, so that she doesn't have to experience the same loss as when her dad died.

I think people who ship Falin and Marcille overlook a lot of reasons either have for doing what they do just so they can focus on the ship, and even though I personally like the ship a lot as well, it chafes me to often see people call it canon, and then also argue it poorly (from my perspective, anyway). I'm sorry, that's probably a little mean, but I really don't think pretending there's only one reason Marcille sticks with the party just to push the ship is okay. Ships are ships, canon is canon.

Sorry, that was a bit off topic. In short, it makes perfect sense for Marcille to follow and stick with the Touden siblings when you consider all the circumstances, even if there was no romantic interest in Falin. For my specific reasons, if you haven't, please refer to the paragraph two spots above this one.

Having said all that, I do also believe I made a good case why reactions aren't exactly a good indicator. Pretty much anyone and everyone could have those regardless of how they feel about Falin, and Marcille is somewhat of a prude, if you will - I can't exactly think of a better word, but like I said, she's very proper and she thinks people should follow her sense of propriety, which is something she recognizes and starts to work on by the end of the story. Most of her reactions beyond what could be considered explicitly sexual situations are in alignment to how people with a strong bond ought to behave regardless of what that bond is - which is to say, Marcille would react in exactly the same way whether she was just friends with Falin, or if she had a crush on her. Of the two, I think a friendship is more likely.

I did not deny the existence or the idea of erasure, I'm merely saying that this isn't about it. Rather, "erasure" implies a malicious and intentional misrepresentation of the facts specifically in order to suppress the expression of certain ideas. It depends a lot on intentions, so I know for a fact that this isn't what I'm doing.

I would however agree that "Sometimes the curtains are just blue" has indeed done some damage, but it's also a very convenient shorthand for the idea that there isn't always a metaphor to be found and, more broadly, that there isn't some kind of hidden, double or non-literal meaning to what you're reading. Everyone who knows their stuff know that the statement is highly ironic due to the fact that the curtains were not, in fact, just blue, but as the statement is (double ironically) not literal, that's irrelevant. Being dismissive of it simply for what it is, is a third layer of irony, by the way, in a similar vein of people dismissing the original work as "just blue curtains."

I would really hope that both of us can just stop assuming their conversational partner / debate opposition is dumb as a matter of course for disagreeing. I just wanna add; we're seeing different signs, and interpreting the same signs differently, but that doesn't mean either of us should necessarily be wrong. Like I said, nothing is exactly explicitly stated, and pretty much nobody's arc ends in a relationship, so I would have thought that it would have been very explicit if they were romantically involved in any degree (by which I'm counting one sided crushes and the like; literally ANY romantic involvement) by the end of the story.

The story also shows Kui isn't beyond using popular tropes well - I'm sure that if she was hell-bent on Farcille but wanted to keep it classy and discrete, she would have still used a few common tropes like explicit teasing (ie Chil teasing Marcille how she likes Falin or something to that degree) or any other trope that commonly leads to a relationship in a more romance oriented manga or anime, just to make sure the vast majority of the viewers were on the same page. As things stand, though, Falin is such a non-presence for most of the story that I don't think anything short of an explicit "Marcille likes Falin" or some equivalent would have properly carried the idea across to us.

Ryoko Kui is a genius in many ways, especially on the topic of very natural inclusivity - body types, conditions, realistic characters (relatively speaking), you name it. But I still don't think the story is meant to focus on romance and I don't think there's anything between Falin and Marcille. For all the reasons I listed, I believe are enough for me to state the following; if indeed Marcille and Falin DID have a romantic thing going on, it wasn't portrayed as well as it ought to have been.

That's what I think, anyways. You're very welcome to disagree and, please, tell me in detail why you think I'm wrong - I may be stubborn, but I genuinely love learning new things and I like to hunk I'm open to changing my mind so long as I see the other person is putting in effort (stuff like people saying "just trust me" of "because I said so" has chafed me from when I was little, so sorry if I'm too resistant to changing my opinion without grossly, stupidly big effort, but it only makes sense to me to do things this way).

To put it simply, I hate being wrong, not being proven wrong, so I'd feel genuinely thankful if you could definitively prove to me that I was wrong.

Weird amount of bi erasure in the Dungeon Meshi fandom considering Marcille is canonically bi, not a lesbian

[recentanimenews]

Bookshelf Briefs 11/28/17

It’s a cornucopia of briefs!

Ace of the Diamond, Vol. 6 | By Yuji Terjima | Kodansha Comics (digital only) – Training camp continues, and the coach has arranged for some practice games right afterwards, the better to gauge how well the first years play when exhausted. For Furuya, the answer is initially “not well,” but he never loses his determination, and once he swallows his pride and asks Miyuki for advice, finally internalizes the truth that, at Seido, he’s got teammates who are going to back him up, even if the batter does manage to get a hit. Eijun’s fun and everything, but Furuya is not your typical shounen protagonist, and I’m pleased that he’s getting his share of attention. I also liked that the boys hang out some with varsity teammates we’ve barely glimpsed, and we learn how awesome the captain is. I am already relishing the thought of future marathon rereads of this series. It’s a keeper for sure. – Michelle Smith

Cells at Work!, Vol. 5 | By Akane Shimizu | Kodansha Comics – Once again, Red Blood Cell is absent from this volume except a brief cameo. This allows us to focus our attention on the ‘normal cell’ from prior volumes, who still has a tendency to do dumb things on impulse. Fortunately, the cute adorable bacteria he’s harboring in his room are the GOOD kind of bacteria. Unfortunately, his attempt to get them to where they can do good is thwarted by a host of crises from which White Blood Cell and company must rescue him, most notably the return of Cancer Cell, who brings back the ethical ambiguity to the series as he asks essentially “are the needs of the many less important than the needs of the one?” The one being the body. This was a lot of fun. – Sean Gaffney

Delicious in Dungeon, Vol. 3 | By Ryoko Kui| Yen Press – The cast expands a bit in this third volume. We see one of our team’s old comrades, who left them due to actually wanting to get paid, and the complicated relationship she has with them, particularly Marcille, and it’s made clear she’s not a bad guy—everyone has their own needs and drives. As for Marcille, we also get a flashback to her school days, which shows how she met Laios’ sister (still being digested by a dragon, if you recall), which is rather cute. And of course more ridiculously gross yet amusing monster recipes. And plenty of humor, as it turns out tentacles can be peeled sort of like bananas. Still good, though I’d like to get the sister rescued or declare her dead. – Sean Gaffney

The Full-Time Wife Escapist, Vol. 6 | By Tsunami Umino | Kodansha Comics (digital only) – It was inevitable that Mikuri and Hiramasa would discover that they are in love with each other, but I am still kind of surprised that it actually happened. It’s lovely to see him grinning like a doofus at the office after an evening of fooling around, but I appreciate that the transition into a real marriage isn’t exactly going to be smooth. Mikuri is worried, for example, that she’ll be expected to do the same amount of work for free, while Hiramasa worries about his waning sex drive. Somehow I doubt we’ll ever see the latter issue addressed Everyone’s Getting Married! I also really enjoyed the scenes where Mikuri’s aunt and Kazami get to know each other better—I wholeheartedly approve of them hooking up! – Michelle Smith

Haikyu!!, Vol. 17 | By Haruichi Furudate | Viz Media – And so our heroes pull it off, and get to advance, while Aoba Johsai has to suffer an ignominious defeat. This is done in the best possible shonen way, with lots of noble tears and resolve to get even stronger. The cliches don’t FEEL like cliches—the author is adept at making this feel fresh even when you know where every plot beat is going to be. And so it’s on to the finals, and I suspect this game may drag on a while, as it’s a best 3-sets-of-5 game. Their opponent is Shiratorizawa, who I’m sure we’ll find out more about as we move on, but who clearly have one player who’s REALLY good, and the volume ends with our heroes down by quite a bit. I think they’ll come back, though. Just a hunch. – Sean Gaffney

Hana & Hina After School, Vol. 3 | By Milk Morinaga | Seven Seas – This turns out to be the final volume, and honestly you get the sense it was cut a bit short—the last half feels rushed. Of course, considering all we were getting before that was a slow-burning pile of angst, it might be best that it got the push. Morinaga Milk has always been better at fluffy than angsty, so it comes as something of a relief when our two heroines finally get over the whole “is it just me? Did she mean it when she said she’s not that way?” drama and get together (in all respects—as with previous MM titles, there’s a brief, not-that-explicit sex scene here). In the end, this was a cute read, but I’ve seen better yuri from this author. – Sean Gaffney

Horimiya, Vol. 9 | By Hero and Daisuke Hagiwara | Yen Press – Horimiya has always tried to be at least slightly more realistic than a lot of romance manga, and thus watching Yuki’s ongoing angst regarding her lies and deceit and how it’s impacting other people is particularly painful. I’m not really all that sure I want her to win here, even though the alternative will also suck. On the bright side, Hori and Morimiya are doing better than ever, and as Hori is forced to think about her future—something which she seemed to have given not a single thought to—but she realizes here that no matter what she does, she wants to be with Miyamura. This leads to a sort of adorable reverse proposal, which fits the general characterization. Still good, but I hope it’s wrapping up soon. – Sean Gaffney

JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders, Vol. 5 | By Hirohiko Araki | Viz Media And so, finally, JoJo’s has run up against my ability to get 500+ words out of each volume. Yes, this is the first volume to get a Brief rather than a full review, and I put the blame entirely on the rambling Road To Cairo plot that Araki has chosen to use this time around. Individual moments are as striking as ever—I felt the killer baby was more interesting as a killer within dreams than in the real world, and the surprise non-death of a character feels a bit cheap. But JoJo’s still has its bizarre visuals and grotesque violence, and as long as it keeps that up it should stay interesting, even if Jotaru continues to be the dullest Jo we’ve had to date. – Sean Gaffney

Kiss & White Lily for My Dearest Girl, Vol. 4 | By Canno | Yen Press – Most sports manga fail to show the heroes moving on to a professional career, with a few exceptions like Captain Tsubasa. In reality, a lot of sports careers end just the way we see Mizuki’s end here—she comes close to the Nationals, but doesn’t make it, and realizes that this is it, she has to stop doing track and decide on an actual career. There’s also her relationship with Moe, which may actually be hindering her for a spell—it’s gotten to the point where she forgets running was fun—but eventually proves stronger than both thought, and we get a proposal (of sorts) and a kiss. This is a bit stronger than Hana & Hina, even if it’s just as fluffy, and I’m pleased to see it continue. – Sean Gaffney

Log Horizon: The West Wind Brigade, Vol. 7 | By Koyuki and Mamare Touno | Yen Press – The comedy is kept to a minimum here, as we get the more dramatic parts of the third and fourth novel, intermixed with how it’s affecting the West Wind Brigade. Kawara’s on the cover, and we get a bit more insight into her character—basically, she’s an instinctual fighter but a bit of an idiot who got into the game because she wanted to be a shonen hero, and the West Wind Brigade was the only one that would take her in. It does also show off her strengths as well, though. That said, easily the most interesting part is the ending, where we get a surprise appearance by a seemingly insane Nureha, who’s met by a battle-crazy Soujiro. I want to see how this battle turns out. – Sean Gaffney

My Hero Academia, Vol. 10 | By Kohei Horikoshi | Viz Media – I appreciate that Horikoshi is willing to let Bakugo be a completely unlikable jerk, driven by rage and jealousy and every single negative emotion, and yet still show that he realizes the difference between good and evil—that he’s decided that he wants to be a HERO rather than a villain, even if that means going against what comes more naturally. It’s a terrific scene that really made me like him. On the flip side, the disguises used to infiltrate Evil HQ are hilarious, particularly Deku and Momo. The humor is needed, as this is something of a grim arc, especially with the arrival of a Bigger Bad towards the end. This volume shows off everything that has made this the hot new Jump title. – Sean Gaffney

Nisekoi: False Love, Vol. 24 | By Naoshi Komi | Viz Media – Even though it’s obvious Onodera’s going to lose, give credit to the author for not making it easy. She and Raku have really developed a close relationship, and even if it’s not romantic I hope they can stay friends. More to the point, the fact that Onodera is willing to help Raku track down Chitoge by FLYING TO AMERICA with him (because Chitoge has, like many tsundere heroines in denial, literally run halfway across the Earth to escape her love issues) shows off her truly ridiculous kindness. There’s the last popularity poll in this book, and Chitoge and Onodera are separated by barely 100 votes. That’s impressive for a harem title. In any case, it wraps up next time, so keep reading. – Sean Gaffney

One Piece, Vol. 84 | By Eiichiro Oda | VIZ Media – It’s been a while since we had a volume that focused on further sad backstory for one of the Straw Hat crew, but that’s what we get here, with many hard-to-read scenes about Sanji’s abuse at the hands of his family, intercut with a silly fight in which Luffy defeats a bunch of cracker soldiers by eating them. Because Big Mom is threatening to kill Chef Zeff if he doesn’t comply, Sanji is forced to both insult and attack Luffy in an attempt to get him to abort the rescue, but of course this doesn’t work. In addition to this riveting drama, there’s also the question of whether Pudding (Sanji’s seemingly sympathetic bride-to-be) can actually be trusted, more information about the ponegliffs (yay!), and a glimpse at the unintended consequences of toppling Doflamingo. Plus, Brook actually gets something important to do! This series is still excellent. – Michelle Smith

By: Michelle Smith

[fumifooms]

You’re the resident chilchuck expert, so I was wondering about it there’s any canon evidence that he did smoke or drink alcohol when the kids were younger. I always thought it was something he picked up due to the strain of long jobs, when the kids were already older, but you seem to think differently and I was wondering if there was anything in canon that made you think that way!

Now that you mention it I guess it’s true there’s no evidence he did. Smoking we literally only know he does at all because of one post-canon panel where he has a pipe, so no, maybe this stick-looking thing in the panel below too though, I’m not familiar with medieval blunts eh. We’ve only gotten one panel of him and his daughters interacting when he was younger so that’s not too insightful on that end, and every time we see him young and freckled it’s in a job context so again not really where we’d expect him to be drinking. The earliest proof (/heavy implication since we don’t see inside his cup I guess) is 3 years before canon when Laios hired him, where he’s at a bar, classily placed in front of all the bottles ✨

Yes alcohol is almost certainly a way through which he copes especially with stress, so if we go with the theory he started around when work got stressful, well… Chilchuck started working as a dungeon diver ~10 years ago so when he was ~19, making Mei, Fler and Puck ~6 and ~4 respectively, so from that draw the ‘stressful enough to start drinking’ line wherever. We don’t know what he did before that with any certainty, and it could be he did odd jobs, lived off mostly mutual aid and community work, or just focused on only raising the girls. Half-foots tend to be poor and I see a lot of that in Chilchuck specifically so I don’t think he could have afforded to not have some paying work though.

Alright, so then why do I think he did drink when the girls were younger?

I give a more complete rundown of the info we do have on his alcoholism & his family with panels and references + all the speculation I make from it here. But the most targeted and objective answer I can give is:

Of course there’s just very very little we know of Chilchuck’s life with his family, and I think that’s by design too. I think the details being up in the air is to allow more nuance of the topic, like, will trying to reconcile go well, is their relationship salvageable? We don’t know, because we don’t know. So the message of giving hope a chance even if it’s a long shot, that things could truly go either way, is more relevant, impactful and meta in that way. How long was he usually away for work travels into dungeons here and there? How did he act with them? All we can really do is "it’s likely that", it’s a game of which way we think it’s more implied. There’s no right and wrong answer, it’s all Marcille-like larping the events out.

My main reason for thinking he did is that his father died from overdrinking and Chilchuck is very aware of that. He mentions his death casually in the extra about their stance in alcohol and in his Adventurer’s Bible profile, etc. He acts towards the alcohol presumably the same way his father did: with abandon, uncaring for the health effects, probably happily too considering Chil says "dying doing something you love is a good way to go". Very nonchalant. So you see what I’m saying here right, wether he started early or late, his view of alcoholism is very influenced by what he saw of his father growing up, it’s something he’s always been aware of and saw in a mostly positive light, something that was inherited you could say. It’s something that was normalized to him from a young age. Regardless or where it goes from there I do think this part is pretty inarguable. If he views it positively and we know that in the present alcohol is his favorite food that he loveees, why would he have held out on it? Personally that all makes me think he started drinking very young, especially since I don’t think they limited alcohol to age as much as modern standards (and I mean, teen drinking is obviously still a thing). And here you could argue, maybe his father only started being more alcoholic later when Chilchuck moved out, or something! And to that there’s nothing I can say except I think that’s a strained theory, and that Chil might even have largely cut contact with his family after moving out (since he and siblings are listed as almost strangers and he doesn’t seem to have much emotional attachment to his parents, but also we know he rents out his place to "a relative"), but it’s true we have no evidence. "I’ve picked up the same unhealthy substance abuse as my father haha! No big deal right haha" repeated several times to me just reeks of intergenerational trauma, & the alcoholism gene as they call it. Like effortless sliding into drinking as if it’s second nature, it’s natural after all, it’s normal after all, it just makes sense, it makes you feel good and that’s what matters.

BUT from my interpretation then we have a whole other layer: Alcohol is of course not all bad always. I think he’s always liked alcohol and drank it on occasion and it brought him joy etc etc, but I think here the implication in the question is, how much effect did his drinking have on the family relations and how early? And that isn’t so much about when him drinking started but when the alcoholism started. Addiction is defined by a habitual need, that has negative effects from filling that need (physical, psychological, social, etc) and negative effects from withdrawal. If Chilchuck drinks to cope and he can’t not cope without it, that’s addiction, if it affects his relationships, if it’s a need he has, it’s addiction. Addiction can be very insidious or look very casual, and how much people around the person are affected by it is case by case. Cheerful drunks can be sooo annoying and uncomfortable though let me tell you. Drunks are drunks. And this sounds harsh, but even if people around them don’t mind drunks it’ll still have some effects here and there, living with one can be such a challenge, ily drunks good luck with everything much like Chilchuck you deserve good things 🫡　

Ok so with the dad thing and the "ok well maybe he’s always drunk casually but it grew worse with time around when he started working as a dungeon diver" precision made, the other bit of info we have that can inform this is that Chilchuck is on a harsh diet and that alcohol is a hunger suppressant. We know Chilchuck "used to be fine not eating for two days", that literally on screen to quench his hunger so it doesn’t keep him awake he goes to drink water, drinking is his instinct to hunger. Again alcohol is a hunger suppressant and if you want info on that the internet has a lot of research and anecdotes about it. He diets to be light enough to not trigger traps, so it’s something he’d have started after dungeon diving most likely. Between the stress and the diet, yes it’s extremely likely he started going harder on alcohol after he started working in dungeons. There’s arguments on wether two days without eating is less bad for half-foots than humans, but apart from smaller portions there’s nothing that indicates half-foots should get less than 3 meals a day. They need less food but that’s because their bodies are smaller: the need is proportional to the body, not smaller than others’ races, the % of need is similar even if the kg amount of food isn’t. There’s also a popular headcanon with support basis that half-foots run hot and have a faster heartrate and whatnot, and that points towards a faster metabolism rather than a slower one: a bigger need for eating rather than a smaller one. He has the same bmi, 18, as Mickbell, but perhaps because Chil is much taller he’s less intensely visibly underweight with ribs showing than Mick during the bath extra, it’s most apparent when he becomes tallman.

Alcohol is something so important and omnipresent in his character that I have trouble believing it’s something that was part of only a small fraction of his life. It’s his immediate go-to, his no-brainer solution to a good time, I’ve sort of always assumed especially after looking at his family that it’s something he discovered decently young. Like he just acts like someone who’s always had alcohol to fall back on and started young idk. Alcohol is one of his 5 keywords. Alcoholism is very ingrained into his world view and life, his "it doesn’t matter" stance his ‘work hard play hard’ mentality his idea that the world is harsh so you get relief where you can, so it just makes sense to me that it’s always been in his life, if not actively then at least looming.

So yes, in summary, my take: Alcohol was always something he wholly enjoyed to an unwise level, but it could have been considered casual until he started working into dungeons and his need for it on a regular basis intensified. Alcohol has always had positive association to him as far as we see, so when it started being a problem he didn’t see it as such. To quote him, "I drink anytime I get the opportunity to". Why always? Approval of father’s alcoholism. Why alcoholism at all? Diet + stress & coping mechanism & emotional stunting + relationship issues, and she decided she had enough after they went out for drinks.

Conclusion

Chilchuck having drunk from a young age makes sense to me and it’s the strongest narrative angle I see on the table, but that’s objectively a me opinion, yes! There’s no evidence, moreso there’s canon basis and supporting info, but it’s all very left up to interpretation. I’ve made my own interpretations of things from the scraps we see, like everyone else making Chilwife and daughters content. Wether you have a stance on the topic or prefer to leave it vague in your takes, it’ll be a matter of what you think makes most sense, or what you’d rather believe I suppose (which is literally fine)

There’s a lot of subjectivity in even just setting up causal links like you probably noticed during this and I was careful with my word choices, because we’re just extrapolating from what we see and unless Kui states it explicitly from a reliable mouth all we can do is have informed opinions on most things. This particular interpretation is influenced by other details I’ve come to form about my interpretation of Chilchuck too, the more psychological and emotional sides of him and the timeline and how his marriage even happened, unplanned pregnancy imo. Like I hope you see what I mean, this wasn’t supposed to be a speculation post just a quick simple answer but there’s sort of just no other and concise but complete way with the subjectivity nuance to put "maybe it could be yes because of this but maybe it could be no because of this" haha

Edit: Wait the phrasing on this… Interesting. "In recent years"— This does imply that if not just his alcohol consumption increasing then the diversity and quality of it did, so either he indeed did start drinking more (not necessarily meaning he didn’t drink before) assumedly because of his wife leaving, or he started drinking other/more different kinds of alcohol maybe due to the union he formed + his experience gave him greater salary than he had previously (and no wife and family to provide money for), a mix of both perhaps.

[fumifooms]

I feel we talk and speculate about post-canon Marchil. But what about pre-canon Marchil? They may not yet know much about each other's personal lives by the time the story starts. But from the start we could already see that they have some level of rapport and are able to bounce off each other quite well especially given that they see each other as the saner party members.

But we know its not how they started especially given Chilchucks disdain for elves, and the fact that the previous mage/sorcerer of their party supposedly almost broke the party up with their love agendas.

How do you think it played out from there and getting to the start of the manga?

Pre-canon and early Marcille & Chilchuck

Yes, very interesting topic!! There are a good few moments that are telling imo. I don't have any fun way to introduce it all so let's just go right into it, it's gonna be a long post though.

Pre-canon

We do see how they start out:

Like you said, Chil, like the other party members, was very hesitant at first on trusting her, that she’d be a good fit for the party etc, though he doesn’t seem to be taking it any worse than Shuro and Namari (which is interesting since Chil’s distrust of elves is more prominent).

The distrust of mages for their party specifically was due to their old one, implied to have stirred drama by being a marriage seeker with every man in the party yes. We don't know the details but it does paint a certain picture I suppose, I really hope The Adventurer's Bible 2 is gonna have new info or pages about the old party members... Doing an analysis of the party configurations pre-canon would be interesting too, for example there’s the buzzcut guy that’s implied to have betrayed Laios and it’s soo cryptic but intriguing and implied to be a significant moment for Laios, would be worth analyzing the crumbs of info we get in canon... But yes yes point is that's one side of the coin, which is eased when the party gets used to Marcille and she earns their trust by being friendly and nice, BUT there’s the other side of the coin to it where magic has been used to persecute half-foots historically, especially by elves, so there’s that bias that remains even for a good part of canon for Chilchuck, and it's stated the most explicitly when he and Marcille argue over dark magic in chapter 34.

To go back to the pictures above, the panel that shows Marcille "working hard to befriend everyone" contextualizes the extra comic in Chilchuck’s Adventurer’s Bible section(the third picture above) to be set during that time of integration into the party for her. We see they indeed had already their comedic dynamic schtick down by then… And I think that makes sense. Even at the start of canon Chil is still adamant about not making friends and keeping emotional distance, so though I’m sure he was much more standoffish and quiet at first I think going from "I don’t know you and I’ll avoid you" to "I’ll engage with you but I’m not gonna be friendly about it" isn't a big jump and it would happen naturally with time as they get somewhat acquainted.

Chilchuck does value having a good professional dynamic, so he wouldn’t want to be rude or shoot her down, and it’s also that will to help a coworker be efficient that gets him to go out shopping for a pouch with her and makes her able to bond with him on that occasion (Yes I do want to make a fanfic about it hehe. He doesn’t like to wait after people but still went with her for a pouch isn’t that sweet). Considering the way she acts with him in that extra comic, she was already very open and didn’t mind overcrowding him and seeming eager and whatnot. Imo she already looked favorably upon him from the get-go because he’s "a kid" and thus sweet and cute™️, but I still think especially with the added context of the pages on her perspective that she was extra trying to be friendly and encourage engaging with her. Even at their "on good terms for work but no actual relationship" stage at the beginning of canon, Marcille worked to get there and to have that good (decent) of a dynamic with Chil.

Although I don’t think it was especially hard either, I just think it took a while for people to acclimate to her. A lot of the prejudices in Dungeon Meshi are eased and challenged through exposure and contact, like getting a scared dog to see you as safe. "Oh, this guy isn’t so bad after all, guess there are good ones -> guess they have a point -> guess that maybe they’ve always had a point and were never all that evil" etc etc, it’s more nuanced and has variations but hopefully you see what I mean, how prejudices are tackled in Dunmeshi is a very interesting & layered topic for another day.

Ah yes there’s also the extra above in which Chil says how awkward it is to wait with Toshiro and Marcille for the others to arrive, and though it certainly could be mostly about how Toshiro and Marcille don’t get along and that's what makes the air tense, I do think it shows a good level of distance and disinterest between them. It’s often referred to in canon that, previous to canon events, they all truly just had a coworkers dynamic.

Even just hanging out outside of work for a drink was very uncommon. The closest thing to a friend Chilchuck would see someone as in the party would have been Namari I imagine, since it’s shown a few times that those two did go out to drink after work a couple times and got along well (as per the extras about it and some small canon moments).

I think it’s very central to their dynamic at that point that their relationship is professional. According to the timeline it’s been around 1/1.5 year that Marcille has joined Laios’ party at the beginning of canon, and since they dungeon dive regularly that’s a good amount of time to develop a dynamic with a coworker. So yes I think a good way to frame their relationship is that they’re two coworkers, who have been working together well for a while but never developed it into a proper friendship, either from lack of interest or failure to do it, like two cashiers sharing the same shift. They have a bond forged in forced proximity and casual familiarity accumulated over time, which does make their relationship a bit unique and interesting since they would have never become friends under regular circumstances. They're like that sweet & salty sandwich that you have to give a chance to, that'll surprise you and have complementary flavors if you try it out despite seeming disastrous.

Early canon

Their early dynamic is super interesting though!! Both see each other as capable, which I do think is the foundation of their relationship early on, since Marcille thought of him as a kid too closed off on himself and Chilchuck saw her as a somewhat annoying person (afaik) and an elf mage (both which make her more distrust-worthy for him) which doesn't make them very friends material at that point. But like I said, they do see each other as capable not only in their job but with their respective strenghts:

Early on we get the sense that they of course have worked with each other for a while and have a good grasp on the other’s character though, and what they say is insightful on how they think of the other. Above, the excerpt is when Laios and Chilchuck come back with the dead Kabru party’s wet food. "She’s right that wasn’t okay to do. Not good I didn’t catch that, that’s Marcille for you." implying he sees her as sort of the moral compass of the team, that she’s strict on such things but seemingly he values it instead of being offput by it. On her side she says how "he’s usually the most mature here." This is in the kakiage chapter so she still fully believes he's a kid at that point, so it's interesting to see that she still recognizes his maturity demeanor wise.

There is respect there, however how kneecapped or begrudging it is. I think the "you’re the next most normal person in the party after me and you have common sense thank god" dynamic was mostly forged right from the beginning of canon but not before that, since Laios while yes still having some of his questionable leadership previously (since his part was losing faith in him before Marcille joined) was more stoic and controlled, so 1) there is no great evil to band up against in the party, plus there were just more people, so 2) less reason or occasion to seek specifically each other out. But then without Toshiro and Namari they were the only person the other had when Laios started showing his interest in monsters and whatnot, the whole party dynamic got thrown upside down which made them gravitate towards each other more than they usually did. And then Senshi came into the picture but Marcille and Chilchuck had already traumabonded like kittens /j and Senshi turned out to also have an interest in monsters. I do feel like pre-canon they simply didn’t interact as much, more one-off moments and short shallow interactions and the occasional deeper, pleasant enough conversation than anything, so canon events is what really kickstarted it into something more than (acquaintance level emotional distance) coworkers.

And on that note, I think that the true shift in their relationship starts after the red dragon arc, when their goal becomes more convoluted and they’ll have to stick to each other’s side through truly thick and thin. It’s right after that Chilchuck gets a shift in character and motivation where he admits that he cares about them, and when the characters start being overall more vulnerable with each other.

I think about this page a ton for example.

"Still, that Marcille…" Maybe I should check out how the original phrased it, the ‘that’ does add a lot, but even without it there's a very impersonal feeling to it. Like they really are just starting to get accustomed to each other after all and sizing each other up, which isn’t all that wrong considering the context of finding something very important about her out that would shift everyone's perception of her, but it does definitely show distance imo, even with this being after the dragon arc at chapter 29. He thinks of her as silly and sketchy at that point as per the scene with Leed... It's rocky, it's rocky, but they do hash things out together and continue to respect each other's perspective and points, as seen for eample how they strategize together when they meet Shuro and Kabru's parties. And yes, that's super interesting!! The scene after his talk with Leed where he admits he cares about the party member is the point where Chilchuck stops pretending to only be in it for the money and he lets himself bond with the others more, so it makes sense to me that he'd have processed the whole "Marcille dark elf" thing and moved past it, but it does show a lot of trust in Marcille that even despite her dark magic show he goes to her for strategy talk and like, doesn't worry about her doing faux-pas and getting themselves killed or in jail unlike with Laios or Senshi which he feels the need to monitor lol.

I think the bicorn chapter is the chapter that truly cements them as having a relationship in its own right. He opened up about himself and let her in on personal aspects of his life, and that makes him finally ready to fully drop the wall of "coworkers only, no friends nope, our relationship starts and stops at when we enter and leave the dungeon". And of course by the end he's straight up saying he'll introduce her to his family lol <3

Conclusion

So yes overall they do seem to know each other the way longtime acquaintances would, and they have a good grasp on each other’s character, but their vision of each other is severely kneecapped by other factors, Marcille seeing him as a kid and him having a bias against elves and mages and also just optimistic nosy people lol. Chilchuck is only interested in working with her efficiently, without making friends, and besides him being a coworker whose skills are very needed Marcille is only interested in him in a gossip curiosity way and in a ‘Aww I should make an effort to include the kid in things, he should open up more!’ patronizing and infantilizing way. You can’t really bond as an equal with someone you think is a kid after all, so early on it’s more of a caring after attention/interest she has for him, and the process of her growing to see him as an adult is very slow and gradual. They're tough to feasibly work with in a shipping sense early on, like yes ok they have very funny chemistry but at what cost... But I sure do love slow burns and complicated people growing to love each other through learning about them through thick and thin and compromising to better themselves and make it work, so!!

It’d be interesting to have marchil (wether platonic or romantic) fancontent exploring their pre-canon relationship, especially if we were to try and have them learn to know each other more and form a deeper bond and all, but it literally took all of canon to get them there. It took them having to do a desperate emergency dungeon dive with initially only 3 party members, where they don’t have any choice but to spend a lot of time in almost only each other’s company and have to forgo the usual boundaries, when fighting for each other’s lives and learning things about each other like being a 'dark elf' or a 'father of three'. It took 57 chapters and a lie-detecting virtue-detecting monster for him to open up about his wife and family, and who knows how long it’d have taken without that monster or without it having attacked him, serving as evidence that he’d been lying about it. Who knows how long he’d have been fine lying, y’know?? And learning that he cheated on his wife made her esteem for him tank, it’d have made them more tense with each other if anything if the bicorn hadn't proven his lie wrong. Beause it's def implied too that Chilchuck would have said that lie if super pushed int otalking about his wife, which would have happen with or without a bicorn appearing in their path right then.

In the end it’s like how Laios said, thank you Falin for being eaten, and thank you everyone for being the gender that you are, because if any detail had been different the adventure either wouldn’t have happened or would have happened very differently (worse). Best marchil slow burn is canon real?!! Jk there’s so much that could be done with them both pre-canon, during canon and post-canon, but yeahh they’re such complex characters with a complex dynamic that making it both organic and IC would be so hard. I do like the take that he is attracted to her to some degree though, and I feel like Marcille has a general curiosity and interest in romance and maybe experiencing it herself, so I wouldn't say that spontaneous interest would be impossible, but the biggest obstacle is Chilchuck's wife situation tbh because the man is planning on staying faithful and celibate right up to at least divorce if not his grave lol.

Now I do want to write a canon divergent thing where Chil refused to try and tame the bicorn and the party kept on thinking he’d cheated on her and the new dynamic with Marcille though… Eventually she wants to understand him and ask about it, and it keeps getting worse, before it starts getting better because this time around exhaustion caught up to him and he didn’t need the bicorn to make him admit he hasn’t… The whole end thing of his arc would have to happen pretty differently man, whew, especially since he has a complex where he doesn’t see himself as a good man, not virtuous or moral, cowardly and selfish etc etc, so without having a monster with its objective monster senses going "ew you’re a virtuous husband I hate u" it’d have been harder for him to truly consider that maybe the situation isn’t quite as hopeless as he thought and he should at least try blablabla. But Marcille is the next best thing to a bicorn, she can psychoanalyze him and hype him up, I have faith I have faith. Most feasibly though I feel like pre-canon fics with them would be ficlets of moments in which they unexpectedly interacted and went the small extra mile of going beyond small talk and both try to connect a bit, learning to know each other just a bit more, piquing interest or curiosity or making them re-evaluate each other, that’d be fun.

Like you said it's not a topic that's often analyzed and all, so I ended up going all out and being somewhat rambly... Apologies apologies, hopefully this wasn't hard to follow along with, and was good food for thought and had good points! Maybe it feels a bit far from your initial question that was only about going from their first meeting to the start of canon, but I feel like only analyzing their early relationship in that scope and consider the first hurdle in them growing closer fully over and done with doesn't encapsulate the core of their issues with each other and how they deal with them and eventually overcome them. It took a lot of time and insistance and efforts and for their prejudices to be challenged and proven wrong many, many times for it to truly stick and for them to be truly comfortable and open with each other. Early marchil truly has traumabonded retail coworkers energy to me lol, speaking from experience and traumabonded being meant as an hyperbole.