#idk if it fits any iambic pentameter and such

[lokiinmediasideblog]

.

[gothhabiba]

This is kinda a dumb question and I’m pretty sure I’m just a lost cause but is there a foolproof way u to tell stressed and unstressed syllables apart? like I get how they’re supposed to sound diff and to sound it out, but idk why I have such trouble hearing the difference btwn the two? Like if u told me to choose a poem w/ iambic pentameter I cld prolly do process of elimination, but writing out a meter for a poem I almost always get at least half of it wrong...

it’s not a silly question! because metre isn’t actually a feature of language (like prosody) but rather an interpretive framework that’s sort of laid over top of it, scansion isn’t completely unambiguous. it’s not only that poets who write in metre have to chuse words that fit into that metre—it’s also the case that the metre they’re understood to be writing in can influence how we read those words, because it organises our expectations of what sort of stress will fall next.

I’d say there are syllables that are definitely stressed, syllables that are definitely unstressed, and syllables that could go either way, but that we’re likely to interpret as either stressed or unstressed based on what we would expect from where they fall in the metrical frame.

to take an example off the top of my head: the title of a recent poem of mine is “questions for the chronic patient.” this could be scanned like this (with a slash representing a strong & a period a weak syllable):

    /       .     .    .        /    .     /    . questions for the chronic patient

in words of two syllables, it’s generally pretty clear-cut which syllable is stressed. in terms of prosody, stress in English is often communicated by syllable length—the stressed syllable in a word is the one that takes the longest to say (consider “comp-U-ter,” “an-AL-y-sis,” &c.)—thus English is sometimes called a “stress-timed” language. [even for native English speakers who pronounce this sort of thing without thinking about it, it’s not always so obvious what actual phenomena of sound or articulation we’re talking about when referring to stress--& this is actually a bit different according to your variety of English as well. a really detailed account of this would have to account for pitch too but lmao.]

at any rate, paying attention to timing should help you differentiate between stressed and unstressed syllables within a word, given some practice. when in doubt, any dictionary will tell you the primary stress in a word: so, for “question,” Merriam-Webster tells me ˈkwes-chən, which means that the first syllable (the one with the apostrophe before it!) is stressed. other dictionaries may put the stressed syllable in all caps.

this gets a touch more complicated when considering words with a primary & a secondary stress (e.g. SEC-on-dar-y, ir-REV-oc-a-ble, ex-tra-OR-din-ar-y). secondary stresses may be denoted (especially by dictionaries that use the IPA) by a vertical line before and a bit below the syllable in question, as in the above link. which syllables will be stressed in English words is almost entirely unpredictable, but as long as you know how the words are pronounced, you can figure it out through close attention to that. maybe try breaking the words down into their constituent syllables first, and then noting which ones take the longest amount of time to say or seem to be “emphasised” the most.

so that gets us to the 'correct' scansion for “questions,” “chronic,” and “patient.” what about “for the”? prepositions and determiners and little words like that tend to be unstressed. you can hear this, again, paying attention to time as you read it aloud: the last syllable of “questions” and all the way to the first syllable of “chronic” may sort of run together. another way of telling that a syllable is unstressed is if its vowels are “reduced”—that is, if you pronounce them with a schwa or “uh” sound rather than the sound you might use if you were to pronounce the word very carefully in isolation. you probably wouldn’t say “questions for [sounds like “four”] thee chronic patient,” but something more like “questions fur thuh chronic patient.” QUES-tions-for-the CHRON-ic PA-tient.

it’s also possible, though, to decide that this is actually a line of trochaic tetrameter (that is, four trochees per line, each trochee being a metrical foot consisting of a strong followed by a weak syllable: DA-dum), which is a common meter in English. I would be likely to make this decision if this line were surrounded by other lines in trochaic tetrameter. if this were the case, I might scan the same line thusly:

   /       .      /    .       /    .      /    . questions for the chronic patient

reading this aloud, I might stress the word “for” a little bit more than I would otherwise, because, based on where it falls in the metre, I expect it to be stressed. neither of these scansions is 'wrong'--the first one (which, if we take this to be a line of trochaic tetrameter, would hold that “for the” represents a phyrric substitution) just privileges responsiveness to natural speech contours a bit more, and the second one privileges the metre (as a construct or framework) a bit more.

all of this has primarily talked about lexical (word) stress. English also has patterns of prosodic stress—consider, for example, how “How could I have known that?” and “How could I have known that?” seem to be asking slightly different questions by emphasising different information.

so sentence-level stress patterns are also something that we have to consider in scansion. these respond to linguistic questions of what is held to be relevant or new information (as in the foregoing example), and to grammatical or syntactic factors. “How could I have known that he would be there anyway?” for example, could scan as purely trochaic (HOW could *I* have KNOWN that HE would BE there AN-y-WAY), whereas “How could I have known that? He would be there anyway.” seems to place more stress on “that” (since here it’s a demonstrative pronoun, rather than a subordinating conjunction) (HOW could *I* have known THAT? HE would BE there AN-y-WAY).

again, you may find it helpful to break down the sentence into individual syllables, say it aloud, and consider which syllables you seem to be spending the most time on, saying the loudest, or changing your pitch the most on. some students find it helpful to clap their hands on strong syllables or otherwise try to understand stress in terms of rhythm or motion.

basically, stress in English is an incredibly complicated topic that linguists very much don’t agree on, and metre is an artificial (and artificially simple) organising principle laid over top of it. outside of just mistaking which syllable in a multisyllabic word is emphasised, it’s very possible to produce a scansion that’s different from someone else’s without its being wrong. it’s often best to allow your understanding of what metre you should be hearing to influence your scansion.

I write all of the above, btw, as someone who’s studied both linguistics & poetry (including poetic metre) in some depth. I’d recommend Linguistics for Students of Literature if you’re interested in reading more about any of this.

[whoslaurapalmer]

⭐

oh this is a lot of power. i will actually pick something from two different fics because if i talk about the selection of poetry for one i feel compelled to say something about the poetry in the other and when else will i get this chance 

this part from an afternoon long ago -- 

"We are not sure of sorrow, and joy was never sure," he quoted, and his voice shook just as much. "To-day will die to-morrow; time stoops to no man's lure."

He still quoted poetry in the same tone, with that soft reverence. Bertrand blinked a few times until the stinging in his eyes left and he could continue the stanza. "And love, grown faint and fretful, with lips but half regretful—sighs, and with eyes forgetful, weeps that no loves endure."

GARDEN OF PROSERPINE WAS NOT MY FIRST CHOICE. i wound up picking it because i think “that no loves endure” was a really important line for bertrand and lemony to acknowledge, after all this time, especially for a scene that was as achingly sad as it was, and i stand by that, but there was a completely different poem that i wanted there instead that i thought fit a little more thematically, which was to my love by john godfrey saxe, which is a genuinely romantic poem. but i also wanted, whatever poem they quoted, for the whole poem to make sense, and the last stanza of to my love didn’t really fit with the scene, and when they quoted it in my first draft, i had to cut a line from the first stanza for it to really make sense, so i started thinking that it just didn’t sit right. also, as good a poem as it is, and as romantic as it is, i didn’t know how i felt about bertrand quoting saxe to lemony, when saxe was something he shared with dewey. 

proserpine was still not my second choice! i did a quick poetry hunt (because i was trying to get the fic done) and considered “loving you less than life, a little less” by edna st. vincent millay (it came close, but not the exact vibe i wanted), [stutter] by leslie harrison (it had the sadness, and hit some lemony notes, but ultimately i thought it was too, hard), and december by michael miller (great great great vibes!!! but not applicable for the fic or, really, the pairing). then i decided to reread proserpine, and i figured, it probably captured everything the best. putting poetry in a fic is hard. 

beatrice’s free verse poetry in and i’ve written pages upon pages trying to rid you from my bones, and her starting the letter with my heart and i by elizabeth barrett browning 

SO. previously you asked me for another ask meme how much of canon I’m willing to ignore/skip over, and like happens when i get asked anything, my mind immediately blanks, and i completely forgot about something very specific that i did just. ignore in this fic last year. yes, i WAS AWARE that canonically beatrice wrote sonnets. i even brought it up in a completely different fic a few years ago (what are you doing the rest of your life)!!!!! and yet! while writing this fic! i straight. up. forgot!!!!! i am reasonably sure i did remember while writing that she wrote sonnets, pretty sure i then proceeded to say ‘you know what??? fuck it.’ and just moved on, for what i felt were totally legitimate reasons -- 

1) i myself do not typically write rhyming or structured poetry, and especially not sonnets. it’s free verse all day long with me. and because i base so much of how i write beatrice on me, it just felt right for me to give her free verse poetry as well. and i didn’t want to write in iambic pentameter, of all things. who does, even????? 

2) when i thought about it, i didn’t want her to write sonnets specifically, although you could make a case that such a loud and bold character (especially for how i headcanon her) would, in contrast, write that kind of structured poetry, as a form of control, especially over something so unstable as emotions, but you can just as easily make the case that beatrice would find that kind of poetry too restrictive, and lean more towards free verse because it aligns more naturally with who she is and doesn’t require any extra exertion of control and there’s a relief in doing one thing that doesn’t have to be perfect. the latter being what i went with. i actually rewrote some of the poetry to be more, loose? i guess? or vague? idk. (it is very vague poetry let’s be honest.) (it resulted in me feeling restricted while writing it, because i was trying to make sure it didn’t sound like my own poetry.) 

3) TO COMPROMISE, i thought, maybe she likes or admires structured and straightforward poetry, because it’s something she can’t get herself to do, which is why the letter starts with my heart and I by elizabeth barrett browning, which was also to parallel the beatrice letters ending with my silence knot. i considered putting the poem at the end, since my silence knot is at the end of the letters, but i thought it would be like a, stronger bookend sort of thing if i had the poem at the beginning of the letter. i still worry that the poem makes more sense at the end, instead of the beginning, but i think it’s a good opener, too. 

[avicebro]

Hi pollux what do you think about Caster Edgar Allen Poe and Foreigner Lovecraft? What do you think their dynamics would be with the canon authors?

Read more cause I talk too much.

Lovecraft is a known racist. That just makes things awkward with Dumas. Then you’ve got Shakespeare, who wrote about race in plays like Othello. I don’t think those two would like him much for that sole reason. I can’t find much about Andersen, but in life, he did really look up to Dumas, so I have a feeling that he would probably not like the racism part. As of right now, they seem to be pushing the “good dad to Abigail” aspect of his character, and they may not even talk about his racism if he gets added to fgo. However, it was his silly fears about other races that influenced his writing ultimately, and they did a good job with Columbus on this front, so I’m curious to see.

He looks weird tho lol. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something akin to Lovecraft from BSD and instead of making him the historical character they just make him more of the idea of Lovecraftian concepts, or just an Eldritch horror himself. But I don’t know if people would like that. Ultimately I don’t know much about Lovecraft, besides things like what he felt was an appropriate name for his cat, and I find the deconstruction and the re-imagining of his works for the present day to be a lot more interesting than his actual works. Please no hate lol.

I think he would be an interesting possible Foreigner servant, but I feel like if they don’t address the racism part then people might become angry but I mean they didn’t for Napoleon and no one cared lol! So I mean if they just make him a Sherlock Holmes looking fucker with some tentacles then I mean who cares he’s hot right. 

If they push the dad angle then it’s just another dad in the author squad. And then it would act as a way to get Abigail in and the dads need more daughters to babysit. Maybe Avicebron might like him? Idk, if he just doesn’t like talk about his wife around him or anything antisemetic then maybe lol... I don’t think Dantes would like him because of Dumas.... And I don’t think he and Sche would click. Probably the only one that I can say he would get along with is Nursery Rhyme, because she’s an angel that likes everyone. This is of course if they are true to how he was in real life. If he’s more like an eldritch being they’d probably think he’s interesting.

But I do know a lot about Poe.

I know that, along with Byron, Poe’s writing helped with the creation of Dantes. Dumas writes Dantes as Byronic hero, but Poe’s writing appears often in TCoMC. With Nodier, Poe and Byron all smashed together, Dumas took the appeal of vampiric and dark characters and turned that into his main. So I mean Dumas would love him. Another hero he gets to meet, finally. Dantes would probably side eye him. Depending on his personality, if they do make him like how he was in real life and less so the blushing bumbling kohai like in BSD (who is still a good boy), then I think he would be a good fit for Dantes or Avicebron, who are the quieter types in the authorsquad.

Hello it’s time for Pollux to talk about poetry. So as most people know, Shakespeare wrote in iambic pentameter. Poe’s The Raven is written in trochee, which is the opposite of iambic pentameter. I would love it if a) he spoke in trochee that would be sweet but b) this was reflected in his relationship with Shakespeare. While Avicebron kind of fits this role as it stands right now, their personalities could be the jovial vs depressed that we deserve. I can see Poe getting easily annoyed with Shakespeare’s constant loudness. And I think Shakespeare would find an interest in Poe’s life story.

In this way I think he and Andersen would be close as well, just them being two depressed bitches. I also can see Poe doing The Cask of Amontillado on him. Rip Andersen. It would be cool to see how Poe interacts with some of the monsters in grand order as well, like Frankenstein and Lobo. In terms of Sche I think she might be a good person for him to just rant to, and I’m sure he’d be allowed at the symposiums as long as he doesn’t go into a rage lol. And if NR shows off the Jabberwocky then I think Poe might like her. But I also don’t know if he should be around the kids.

In terms of just talking about a possible caster servant, I would love if they worked with the idea of trapping people in Poe’s own personal hell. I think he would just have a bunch of debuffs - maddening, stuns, attack and defense downs. His NP could be an enemy team wide debuff and a stars up for him. I also think he would probably have to debuff himself or his allies to use his skills, demonstrating how he wrestled with all of this. My favourite work of his is The Masque of the Red Death so if they reference that in any way I would love it. 

He should have a raven. Let him wear a red mask. I think they could really use him to talk about the tortured artist trope. Think he would be cool maybe with Salieri too in that sense. Make him seem dark and mysterious but turn out to just have a lot of problems he’s going through, okay? 

Anyways they just gotta find a way to distance it from BSD basically. Which is easier for Poe but harder for Lovecraft unless they do the historical character. Shrug emoji. 

[gothhabiba]

question.. because idk where to find the answer to this.. can i use the word somnambulistic in a traditional sonnet? I am just learning how iambic pentameter works and am sitting here very confused :(

yes!! som-NAM-bul-IS-tic. so it would scan like this:

  .        /   .   /   . somnambulistic

the way that metre fits in / interacts with the natural prosodic contours of speech is a bit complicated for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that English has patterns of primary, secondary, & even tertiary stress within words, but metre in English poetry is dichotomous (a syllable is either stressed or it isn’t). when you use words of more than three or so syllables in metered poetry, it’s impossible for the pattern of stressed & unstressed to fit perfectly (because the primary stress, here -nam-, would be a bit stronger than the secondary stress, here -is-)—this is perfectly fine and far from undesirable, as it keeps your poetry from sounding like a nursery rhyme.

the main thing you don't want to happen is for the primary or secondary stress in a multisyllablic word to fall on what should be an unstressed syllable according to the metrical “frame” or pattern. (that is, depending on where it is in the line. a trochaic substitution for the initial iamb—DAH-dum instead of dah-DUM—is common, but then you really want to make sure that the third syllable in unstressed and the line can return to its intended meter.) you can, however, use words with multiple unstressed syllables in a row with no problem (it might scan as a pyrrhic or anapestic substitution).

look up “trochaic,” “pyrrhic,” “anapestic,” and “spondaic” metrical substitutions, as well as “feminine ending” and “caesura,” for examples of other ways that you can vary iambic metre.

let me know if you have any other questions! I’d love to talk more about this