#idk anything about one of the guys im referring to but the other is schizophrenic i think?? idr but hes at least psychotic

[freakinator]

theres a certain Way that certain video essayists talk that i highkey wish id be able to find streamers that talk like that as well but idk if thats even a reasonable want considering the video formatting is most likely what makes it so they talk like that anyway

[somnilogical]

case study of optimization style: how kelsey piper optimizes to destroy coordination against injustice

her false face of "worrying about disrespecting jay", was the closest thing she could grab that she thought would get others to optimize for my silence. get local warm bodies to pile upon me for continuing to talk about how to get justice and give more information about different sources of injustice in a way compatible with people who have not completely disabled their general intelligence.

she was worried about her reputation and transfems gaining information that would allow them to coordinate along lines of shared oppression (which would start to erode miri/cfar which she wants to survive in order to have a nice (for her) environment to raise her babies), but thats not a socially defensible reason to object so she laundered it through being “worried about disrespecting jay”

11/12/2019

[14:10] Jay (System of Edo): Sarah Spikes has offered to have REACH do an investigation. I do not know this human, and have barely heard of REACH, but my understanding is that it's some sort of sub-organization that CFAR spawned, roughly. My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?

[14:10] acertain: afaik reach is unrelated to cfar

[14:11] acertain: and the space is controlled by Sarah Spikes and Nat

[14:11] ratsby: that's also my understanding

[14:11] Jay (System of Edo): I did not mean literally, I meant like in practice, are they complicit, etc

[14:11] Jay (System of Edo): like with CFARs bullshit in general

[14:11] ratsby: weren't REACH the ones who did the Brent investigation?

[14:12] silver-and-ivory: they did something about brent but weren't able to publish the stuff they got bc they believed he would sue them for defamation

[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): Oh wow. Cowards lol

[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): yeah that's pretty much all I need to know.

[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): thanks

[14:13] silver-and-ivory: :( I don't think they're cowards for that

[14:13] silver-and-ivory: but you have all the information i have so w/e

[14:14] acertain: I think reach doing an investigation would mean the reach panel (https://www.berkeleyreach.org/reach-panel), which afaik is a separate set of people from those who decide how the space is run

[14:18] acertain: idk if the list of people on the panel on the website is up to date though

[14:19] stardust: List is up to date

[14:19] stardust: Full Brent statement is available upon request, not fully public because legal risk

[14:20] silver-and-ivory: https://theunitofcaring.tumblr.com/post/182885399661/abuse-allegations-anon-here-i-am-happy-to-hear

[14:20] silver-and-ivory:REACH consulted an attorney about making the result of the Brent investigations public and were told that there was absolutely no way to do this without making each of the investigators individually liable in a defamation lawsuit. I’m also worried they could be sued to reveal the names of people who spoke to them anonymously in the course of the investigation.

[14:21] stardust: We were planning to get liability insurance when we get our legal non profit status but that has not panned out yet

[14:21] stardust: IRS is slow and hard to navigate

[14:22] Jay (System of Edo): okay, this is enough info on REACH, thanks.

[14:24] Jay (System of Edo): just told her not to investigate.

[14:24] ratsby: wait why?

[14:24] stardust: (She is me)

[14:25] Jay (System of Edo): oh.

[14:25] ratsby: I don't see how them investigating could hurt anything

[14:25] Jay (System of Edo):wait why?I don't believe they'll do anything tbh

[14:25] stardust: I will refrain from posting here if you prefer

[14:26] ratsby: seems like some chance of upside, no chance of downside?

[14:26] Jay (System of Edo):>I don't see how them investigating could hurt anything

My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?

[14:26] Jay (System of Edo):>I will refrain from posting here if you prefer

Yes, thanks.

[14:43] hamnox: The characterization of REACH panel as CFAR's pet feels bizarre. Iirc it got started in no small part because a bunch of locals were pissed off at how CFAR failed to do anything about, and implicitly legitimized, Brent.

[14:58] 𒀭 💮: i dont really know Jay, but i do know that the REACH panel is unjust and about as helpful and necessary as christian missionaries were to native americans. im not reporting my thing to it.linta is on it who made false accusations of emma being indistinguishable from a rapist and somni doing some sort of sex party at their house for social ends of suppression of unrelated dissent. and was generally antitrans in the standard way of saying people are crazy and incoherent, like how people are saying Ziz is schizophrenic when she obviously isnt. i think much of it are populated by lintas friends like mike alicorn and anisha. sarah c, one of the few cis people i trust at this point, had an emotional breakdown about it citing that they dont care about the Law and i think resigned. given the sort of place it is, i bet that none of the REACH panel members are transfem, people can correct me if im wrong.

im kinda for transfems coordinating with each other to the extent they can against people like brent dill, alice monday, lintamande, anna salamon and other agents of injustice. with better game theory than the likes of the REACH panel who flinch at "defamation".

[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: Umm

Tbh I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that all these people are in the same reference class

[15:11] 𒀭 💮: they are in the reference class of perpetuating injustics

[15:11] lintamande: sort of assuming it would be unhelpful to Jay to litigate disagreements from elsewhere here. I don't know anisha. I don't think ziz is schizophrenic. I never said somni participated in the uninvited surprise orgy in my house, just that I was mad at the people who did. I don't think the REACH panel is good for anything except getting offenders banned from REACH in particular rn, and I think we should maybe check in with Jay about whether the rest of this is helping

[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: As are

you

And  I

And ziz

Etc

[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: Nobody is free from sin

[15:12] 𒀭 💮: ^ fallacy of grey

[15:12] 𒀭 💮: like also

[15:12] 𒀭 💮: there is a type difference

[15:12] 𒀭 💮: you socially but not legally implied to avoid culpability

[15:12] lintamande: guys does Jay want to host this conversation

[15:12] 𒀭 💮: the party things i could grep it

[15:13] lintamande: this is the server for helping Jay figure out what we can do to help

[15:13] TowerNumberNine: Jay appears to be idle at present

[15:13] TowerNumberNine: But previously they said there was enough info on REACH

[15:15] deluks917: Agree with Tower the Reach thing should get dropped

[15:15] 𒀭 💮: your "help" is poisoned in the same way that christian missionaries are and you are attempting to funnel peoples sights away from your injustice by framing me as derailing when this is relevant to Jay's needs.

[15:15] 𒀭 💮: and restriction of general intelligence is not.

[15:16] lintamande: somni I am happy to discuss this, I have messaged you offering to discuss this, I just am worried Jay will come back to this and feel like we are disrespecting what they've asked for here and not helping them

[15:16] SeriesOfSymbols: Fallacy of black and white

I think there is a meaningful difference between [rapists and abusers], [person who willfully covered for abuse], and [person who you have disagreements with]

[15:16] 𒀭 💮: i am not worried about this

[15:17] 𒀭 💮: i dont think im disrespecting Jay

[15:17] 𒀭 💮: there is a meaningful difference between stalin and yudkowsky, they are both, however, men.

[15:21] 𒀭 💮: coordination against agents of injustice is important. erasing the pattern of injustice is wrong. saying that all people are the same so we cannot coordinate against injustice because who knows who they are is wrong.it is important for people to know this sort of information so they dont do things like go to REACH expecting justice and then have their plans crumble.

[15:22] 𒀭 💮: people who present REACH as acceptable because "has not everyone sinned" are doing something wrong (linta is not doing this, they are doing a different sort of wrong thing, but also are erasing knowledge of the pattern of injustice)

[15:23] 𒀭 💮: or like if you run this reasoning on people and then apply it to reach with like "it couldnt hurt" are also doing something wrong

[15:24] x.: is there anything at all linta can say or do in this situation which will cause you to believe that they are not doing wrong?

[15:26] x.: (i am not sure how germane this topic is to anything, as this is not a dedicated "The Crimes of Lintamande" server, but so long as the subject is being discussed, i think it warrants asking)

[15:27] 𒀭 💮: yes, stop their suppression of emma and somni, their false claims made to not be culpable in a legal court but also to permeate a social court. stop their optimization for and apologism for cissexism, such in the case of minority stratification. "none of the panel members are transfem but the hosts are" "a lot of people who go to cfar are transfem but afaict none of the staff are" this is a bog standard oppression pattern which linta is familiar with.

[15:27] 𒀭 💮: and several other things.

[15:27] 𒀭 💮: i talked with them for months

[15:28] 𒀭 💮: before slowly and painfully realizing that they didnt care, that the structure they put out fed into evil, agentically. because they talked like my childhood friends who were particularly kind.

[15:28] 𒀭 💮: and i was vulnerable to that.

[15:28] 𒀭 💮: it was really hard to see through this aesthetic to how they were actually optimizing.

[15:29] 𒀭 💮: what effects they were having.

[15:29] x.: perhaps there is some other zone in which this chat would be more appropriate

[15:29] lintamande: that is what I have been saying

[15:29] 𒀭 💮: linta is trying to warp this conversation in that direction

[15:30] 𒀭 💮: because they dislike culpability

[15:30] x.: rather than both of you trying to get the last word in on what's clearly a grotesquely contentious conversation

[15:30] 𒀭 💮: i reject this plea of false peace

[15:30] 𒀭 💮: like

[15:30] 𒀭 💮: what you two are doing are obvious

[15:30] 𒀭 💮: i reject the framing of this not being relevant

[15:30] x.: right, every time one of you makes a post the other one immediately makes another

[15:31] 𒀭 💮: i reject this suppression of important information

[15:31] 𒀭 💮: framed as an irrelevant tangent

[15:31] lintamande: so I'm not saying 'this is irrelevant' I am saying 'let's check with Jay about whether this is helpful to Jay'

[15:31] x.: is new information being introduced?

[15:31] 𒀭 💮: i can see what you are doing

[15:31] lintamande: even if this is incredibly relevant and important it should happen somewhere else unless Jay wants it here

[15:31] 𒀭 💮: it is not optimizing for the good of jay

[15:31] 𒀭 💮: or the good of justice

[15:31] x.: @𒀭 💮 she's making posts online, which you are also doing

[15:33] 𒀭 💮: "making posts online" is important to the fate of the planet

[15:34] 𒀭 💮: like and a lot of other stuff. you cant say "its just making posts online, this is dumb" like sometimes posts are dumb but this is a reference class warp to claim this post is dumb, when i can see its not.

[15:35] x.: did i say it was dumb?

[15:35] 𒀭 💮: you are optimizing for like "you two are just contentlessly fighting, this is silly why dont we do something else besides fight." which is Pretending to be Wise.

[15:36] 𒀭 💮: https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/jeyvzALDbjdjjv5RW/pretending-to-be-wise

[15:37] x.: i have actually not suggested the flamewar should stop, merely that this specific chat might not be a reasonable location for it

[15:37] 𒀭 💮: and talking with you about this pattern also supports lintas utility function which is suppression of the knowledge of injustice

[15:38] x.: i mean, i am not the person running the show here, so i could be entirely mistaken

[15:38] x.: it appears to me that this chat is supposed to be about a guy named "robert"

[15:39] x.: this seems tenuously, at best, connected to that

[15:39] 𒀭 💮: and yet Jay's statement

>My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?

[15:40] 𒀭 💮: and my statements are relevant

[15:40] silver-and-ivory: I feel like in the absence of Jay's presence people should do what they think is best

[15:40] 𒀭 💮: i think even in the presence of Jay, people should do what they think is best

[15:40] silver-and-ivory: also true

[15:40] x.: as far as i can tell, jay already said they were not interested in pursuing an inquest by the hand of the BREACH

[15:41] x.: and refused to engage in such a thing

[15:43] x.: so it's like, "is this person, whose involvement was specifically not requested, a dick?"

[15:43] 𒀭 💮: as far as i can tell this is optimization for silence. because this touches on important things, instead of having a paternalistic additude towards Jay. my read on their CEV after skimming their blog is that they are anti-suppression.

[15:44] 𒀭 💮: also, by like some sort of property rights, this is like 50% my channel.

[15:44] 𒀭 💮: as i was sexually assaulted by robert lecnik.

[15:45] 𒀭 💮: you are interfering with my space as a victim. which is a seperate thing.

[15:45] 𒀭 💮: this is "Robert Lecnik Abuse Chat"

[15:45] x.: so you would prefer to have lintamande investigate this in some way, then?

[15:45] 𒀭 💮: my report is the second item in #concrete-reports

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: i dont want linta to investigate anything besides their complicity with a cissexist system.

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: moriwen made helicopter jokes

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: after they ran out the trans people

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: from EAC

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: and is friends with linta: okay, i guess i am too confused to participate any further then

[15:46] 𒀭 💮: linta framed that as "blowing off steam"

[15:47] 𒀭 💮: i do not feel safe around either of these humans.

[15:52] 𒀭 💮: like not exactly blowing off steam but they said like it was good people were having fun when mori was doing their antitransfem thing.

these things become more obvious with processing.

i think robert, given their pattern so far of predation, possibly exploited environmental cissexism, was enabled by this. erasing knowledge of it leads to inability to coordinate against it leads to cis people treating transfem humans as if they exist in morality holes.

[15:54] 𒀭 💮: like i was around robert lecnik after Jay talked with anna about him i think. if anna listened to Jay and took them seriously, if robert lecnik were banned from cfar spaces and the berkeley meetup, i dont think i would have been sexually assualted.

[15:57] 𒀭 💮: erasing knowledge of cissexism because the people perpetrate it "use preferred pronouns" or whatever leads to inability of transfems to coordinate against it.

[16:04] 𒀭 💮: Jay wrote:

>On Anna Salamon: I remember her seeing me as a transwoman who exclusively liked men; Blanchard has a whole “theory” about this. And apparently that made me a “real” transwoman (wtf), unlike the rest of the transwomen in LW. I feel she explicitly went out of her way to validate me as a woman a number of times, like, there was one time she was saying hi to me and did the human version of this: (http://www.thebalancedcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_1166.jpg). Which, yeah, she’s a TERF.

>Also, the reason I hated her early on was, there was a time that she, I, Robert Lecnik (my rapist), and Peter (his husband) were in a room for an hour long private therapy thing since Peter was a large CFAR donor. Robert admitted to “sexually assaulting Fluttershy and being ‘bad at consent’ with a whole bunch of other people”, and Anna didn’t see any issue with letting him continue to “run the Berkeley meetups” (an honorary thing, he used it to often-ineffectively hit on people). And I had some betrayal trauma from Anna around this, as well as a later feeling of “wow I got pwned by a guy that low in mana, I’m lame”, too. Fortunately it’s all emotionally processed now.this sort of information is very relevant for coordinating against people like Robert Lecnik

i think if cissexism were deleted, in counterfactual worlds in which transfem people got to be on things like "abuse panels", this sort of predation wouldnt happen. but like responses that reactively goodhart this and say "choose the most complicit-with-the-cistem transfems and place them on the panel to avoid culpability" are useless.

individuals learning game theory, forming class-consciousness, and coordinating with each other might help bring justice to things like Robert Lecnik being allowed by the cistem to continue to prey on trans people, to prey on me. with full knowledge that this was going on.

[16:05] 𒀭 💮: https://sinceriously.fyi/intersex-brains-and-conceptual-warfare/#comment-240

[16:09] 𒀭 💮: i have some hope in anarchistic cooperation between smart humans. i have approximately 0 hope in cissexist abuse panels and people like anna salamon who allow the predation of me and people like me to happen.

[16:37] Jay (System of Edo): sec, need to read through all this.

[16:58] 𒀭 💮: if cissexism were deleted this narrow sort of predation would stop happening but like, there would still be predation there would still be predation on minorities. i care about all sentient life not just transfems. this is not an optimization target but is saying "you who say cissexism does not have a hand in the game, if cissexism were actually deleted the counterfactual world post-deletion would look very different than this one. accepting a status quo where like trans people arent on things like sexual abuse panels and arent employed as CFAR staff is accepting cissexism. and resulting in things like, when they go to these institutions they are ignored"

[17:22] Jay (System of Edo): So. My main thing is to look at what algorithms people are running. Like, REACH sounds like they're not brave enough to do something they believe would make the world a better place at a small personal cost, so why would I care about mitigating circumstances if I already know that that's the algorithm they're running. (edit: this is what "is REACH basically CFAR's pet" pointing to, eg if they are pwned by the same things. rather than pointing to whether the two orgs are ostensibly related).

Similarly, discussion of REACH beyond what was needed for me to figure this out (about six lines of text) is not at all useful to me. But pointing this fact out to silence Somni suggests some sort of preference to defend REACH. So, if that's the algorithm you're running, then I see you as (probably) sorting people/discussion topics based on what you can socially get away with. Sort of like, the word "appropriate" is in the same class as "uppity" "disrespectful" "honorable" etc, and this applies to asking if it's "appropriate to discuss REACH despite Jay's preferences".

I personally do not participate in long conversations about who is "in the right", because I personally find it very easy to figure out what people are trying to do, and find that continuing on chats longer than that is a waste of my time. But, this is also Somni's space as a victim of Robert, so it's okay if she wants to discuss REACH I guess. I've never talked with her, but she (they?) seems to have good takes with respect to when someone is de facto hurting others or running bad algorithms in a way related to that.

[17:49] Jay (System of Edo): (sort of like, when I hear that someone sexually assaulted another person, I don't think, "well I guess it's a small harm relative to the good you can do if you're maximizing your life for utilitarian impact", I rather think, "what the fuck algorithm are they running, I don't think they'd have done that if they were trying to reduce the suffering of all beings, maybe there's something I can get out of this person, but definitely not like, outsourcing thinking/project leadership/etc to them"

[18:50] Lorelei: (also related to the reach panel, I'm transfem and was very eager to volunteer as a member, in part because I wanted my queer social circle to have some representation in the process of Justice, but was turned down.)

[18:51] Lorelei: (just so they can't claim not having a tranfem member is justpure coincidence/lack of volunteers)

[18:58] 𒀭 💮: (linta messaged me to say that moriwen saying the helicopter thing was after they said having fun was good. and i checked this and its true. but like that is not at all central to why i think they are collaborating with cissexism or why i talked with emma for like 15 minutes about how people like linta and mori might be horrible to transfems if we told people about alice monday. (people wouldnt actually be marginally worse to transfems. people dont have prejudiced beliefs like that, their transphobic "beliefs" are a coordination mechanism for harm. white people in the antebellum south could see perfectly well that those who were enslaved were human beings.) noselling commitments to transphobia is a good move in response to "what if outing a trans abuser worsens cissexism?".)

[19:02] silver-and-ivory: oh linta and mori left

[19:02] 𒀭 💮: they were banned