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paulisweeabootrash · 5 years ago

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Followup on Evangelion

This post was supposed to happen quite a while ago, but stuff happened and I forgot to do stuff so here we are. Like I did with my Re:ZERO followup, I just wanted to come back to look more broadly at the rest of the series here instead of getting into individual episodes. I previously talked about eps. 1--8, so this encompasses everything 9--26.

Before we get to the actual review, though, I need to tell you something bout my background, and consequently one of my biggest pet peeves. I’m an engineering psychologist by training, and so although I’m not remotely qualified for the clinical side of things that people always associate with psychologists, I do know a fair amount about normal thought processes. And you know what I am absolutely certain of? Freud was wrong. I don’t understand why we give him so much attention in intro-level psych classes, and I suspect that people often come out of those classes knowing less about psychology than they would if they hadn’t taken the class at all because they’re required to learn about Freud. Freud was influential, sure, but that’s mainly a bug, not a feature. He tried to develop an all-encompassing model of normal development and cognition based entirely on psychiatric patients (maybe not the greatest approach?) and ended up with a body of work so ad hoc handwavy that philosopher Karl Popper used it as an example of something “unfalsifiable” -- that is, one could not even in theory run an experiment which would prove Freud wrong, because there are no specific observable results that Freud’s theories couldn’t produce an explanation/excuse for like some kind of game of research Calvinball. He maybe deserves to be mentioned as one of many “founders” of psychology, but really, unless you’re in a class on the philosophy of science or the early precursors to actually scientific mental healthcare, I cannot understand why we think he’s worth discussing in any detail. Do we start chemistry classes with a week on the ancient Greek elements of earth, water, air, fire, and ether, and test students on the final on the theory of how those elements interact? No? Then why do we start psychology classes with a week on Freud’s theories and test students on the final on defining the id, ego, and superego or the psychosexual stages of development?

Why is this relevant? Because the second half of the series gets frequently and intensely Freudian. Some people draw parallels between Asuka, Rei, and Shinji and the Id, Superego, and Ego, and yeah, okay, I guess so, but I’m willing to accept that as a character dynamic that works well. Then, in the backstory episode about the establishment of NERV, we get exposition about the three-part Magi computer system being different aspects of its creator’s personality, which is pretty hard to not see as another id-superego-ego set. My real issue is with the psychosexual angle. Misato, for example, can’t stay way from her ex Ryoji, but also repeatedly compares him to her father, including immediately after an off-screen (but voice acted) sex scene. There’s an entire out-of-body experience episode where Shinji, temporarily merged with his Eva, directly experiences his own subconscious desires for sex and praise that all boil down to “he misses his mother” (who is filled in for, in a way, by Misato here, as she is the person who brings him back out of the Eva into the world and the first person he encounters when “born”, if you will... and of course in true Freudian fashion, she appears as one of his possible sexual partners in the out-of-body experience). And I just... hate that aspect of the show and need you to know it.

That is not at all to say I haven’t enjoyed and appreciated the rest of Evangelion, though. The angels, varied and bizarre, are one of the best uses of the monster of the week format I’ve seen in any show. Their capabilities are poorly-understood even to those shown to be experts in-universe, and they are a genuine threat to the characters. Serious injuries to pilots and Evas alike are common, and the number of implied or explicit civilian deaths and the amount of damage to Tokyo-3 and NERV HQ escalate dramatically. They are, ludicrous technobabble explanations aside, a truly and horrifyingly alien opponent, whose motive is not even revealed until about halfway through the series, and whose potential impact (ha!) remains hidden to the main characters. Those revelations come up organically in dialogue that establishes how secretive and how deep into mad science NERV truly is. Blah blah spoiler spoiler, suffice it to say that Misato is not well-filled-in on what exactly NERV is doing, and learns some things from Ritsuko and Ryoji that have pretty disturbing implications about the capabilities and direction of their technology. All the while, the “Human Instrumentality Project” looms in the background, mentioned but not explained until the very end when it is put into action.

Our main trio of pilots experience some character development that, again, I find very believable for teenagers thrown into a level of both danger and responsibility that they can’t handle. Asuka’s arrogance and competitiveness turn from quirks into tragic flaws as she recklessly tries to prove herself to be the best Eva pilot, and are also revealed to be part of a more complex and general need to prove herself to be serious and mature. (Not to mention, she is infuriating precisely because, again, she’s realistically written... her mixture of resentment and longing for Shinji and her wildly age inappropriate crush on Ryoji both remind me of people I used to know.) Rei, who has never known anything but NERV’s single-minded dedication to making her a pilot (and who, like Shinji, is a victim of Gendo’s abusive parenting), starts to have the first vaguely normal human relationships of her life. And Shinji tries to run away again, but I promise, it’s different this time.

No, that last one’s not in there as a joke -- I think this is an important turning point. In ep. 18, Gendo remotely takes control of Shinji’s Eva to force it to do something Shinji refuses to do. Shinji is understandably horrified by this, not just because of the violation of his autonomy or something but because of the terrible thing he has now experienced doing (remember, pilots are neurologically connected to their Evas and share their sensations), and in the next episode, in a burst of sheer hatred for not just his father but all of NERV, he quits again. Most of the other characters still treat him as running away due to weakness or indecision, like they did earlier in the series, but he has a reason now. They are falling victim to a “boy who cried wolf”-like problem, reacting to what they have come to expect from Shinji rather than to his actual motive. He is persuaded to return in order to protect his fellow pilots who have become his friends, and then the next episode is that infuriating out-of-body thing, but the fact remains that this shows Shinji has grown across the series, from acting out of fear of and/or familial obligation to Gendo to acting out of a desire for praise (see ep. 12) to feeling like he has an actual role and mission to play.

Meanwhile, it becomes clear that Gendo really is the sinister mastermind he appeared to be. While his colleagues in the shadowy council -- called Seele -- attempt to rein him in, and he theoretically is responsible to a chairman of that organization, the real power is with Gendo and the sheer amount of mad science he can muster under secretive or outright false pretenses. And... wow, there’s not much I can say about that, because there’s not much I can say about episode 19 and beyond without revealing backstory the show wants to keep secret until this late.

What I can say, though, is I think the show fumbles hard on its late episodes, even before the notorious original ending. Up to this point, I thought the show had been improving in general in its ability to tell an interesting story, but it dives back here into the same problem I had early on where it’s difficult to tell how much time has passed within or between episodes, and that creates more of a problem this time around for the basic ability of the audience to empathize with the main characters. Perhaps this explains why there were alternate Director’s Cut versions of these specific episodes? (I don’t know because I haven’t seen them, and they’re apparently only available to English-speakers on the 2004 “Platinum Collection” DVD release, and I am not paying the $120+ that eBay sellers want for them.) I suppose it’s possible that the unsatisfying endings of our main cast’s arcs are intentional, and reflect how pessimistic Anno himself, and his initial description of the show, were, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with a downer ending per se, but episodes 21-24 don’t manage to land them for me. Asuka fails at the only thing that makes her feel valuable, Rei has her tenuous human connections and her means of maintaining them if anything happens to her taken away, Misato realizes maybe NERV has been the bad guys all along, Shinji finally shows agency and makes an important decision for himself but immediately regrets it... all of these clearly should be tragic, but they just didn’t make me feel as sad for those characters as I know I should’ve.

Asuka’s brief and mostly-offscreen abandonment of NERV in the face of her plummeting confidence, the introduction of the Fifth Child, Kaworu, and Ryoji’s sneaking of secret information to Misato all are great plot points that could have had dramatic conclusions, but they all fell flat for me. The episode focusing on Rei at least makes sense in tying together many things implied by previous episodes, and fills in or confirms some things we’ve already seen. For example, it confirms the existence of literal souls in this narrative universe, so now we know to take certain aspects of Shinji’s out-of-body experience -- the loss of sense of self, and the feeling of having recontacted his mother’s soul -- as literal rather than just a storytelling device to display the Freudian subconscious, and the angels’ ability to make direct mental contact with people by this point certainly seems to be literal magic, not some sort of exotic biology.

But episodes 21-24 in particular feel like a rapid-fire dump of partial ideas with the dramatic pauses in all the wrong places -- exemplified by the minute-long still shot as Shinji decides whether to stop the final angel from [spoiler] that changes the scene from tense to absurd. It is, in other words, paced poorly, and this isn’t just bad news for individual episodes, but for the ability of events to matter to the audience. I also expected to have something to say about the gay content in ep. 24 that the professional internet commentators are obsessed with talking about (specifically, talking about how much Netflix screwed it up with a very small translation change), but that aspect of that episode in particular was overshadowed for me because the show just failed to show enough of a relationship building between Shinji and Kaworu for it to mean anything. Even with the “love” to “like” change, I end up coming away with the impression that Shinji has a crush on Kaworu (whether Kaworu feels the same or just doesn’t get how normal people interact), but that doesn’t mean much when their entire series of interactions seems to be over less than a day(?).

And so we come to the two-part finale. With no more angels to interfere, the Human Instrumentality Project begins. We first see our pilots suffering separately in their own despairs and doubts, Shinji and Asuka both suffering from needing to be needed, Rei wanting to die permanently this time but afraid now that it’s finally an option. The Project apparently forces direct contact between everyone’s souls, though, and we see how the exposure of feelings we do not wish to express or even think about can be even worse than isolation. Misato and Asuka both totally break down upon directly encountering Shinji’s soul and involuntarily sharing their most upsetting and embarrassing memories with him.

Or, well, that seems to be what Shinji’s getting from them, anyway. We don’t actually know what they’re experiencing, I guess, since we quickly learn this is only Shinji’s personal experience of Instrumentality. He, and implicitly everyone else, is stuck in his own personal incorporeal world having an internal argument and trying to navigate an entirely new way of existing not constrained by the physical world. The visuals themselves meanwhile regress to sparsely-detailed still images, then to storyboards, then sketches, before suddenly popping back to full animation as Shinji experiences another “possible world”, a frankly hilarious couple of scenes reimagining the show as a school life comedy. Shinji begins to untangle what he thinks of himself from what others think of him, and is instructed by visions of his friends and colleagues that, among other things, conventional associations between concepts are just that -- conventional associations -- and they don’t need to mean to him what he thinks they’re supposed to mean. Then this fascinating mindfuck of an ending, which up to this point I have been genuinely enjoying enough to forgive its Freudian jargon, crashes to a halt with the resolution that he just suddenly accepts himself, abruptly. And then everyone clapped. The end.

I feel let down, because it just sort of feels like Anno wanted very badly to resolve Shinji’s misery, but just whiffed on how to pull it off. “Just stop hating yourself”, even given some sort of amazing supernatural opportunity to do so, is a bit too “have you tried not being a monster?” of a resolution for me. I’m not asking for realistic therapy in my anime, but maybe there was some better way to show him changing his entire outlook? And then I feel let down again because I finally remember that we cut to this abruptly and are totally ignoring what Instrumentality is doing or will do to everyone else, something that is such a wild shift that it is certainly the end of the world as we know it, to zoom in on just one person’s inner conflict in a very surreal way for two entire episodes. So... yeah. That was Evangelion. Yup. It was a solid sci-fi (or... sci-fantasy, I guess) premise that went in interesting directions, although not always executed well. I appreciated it, and I would be interested to see how it has been repeatedly remade by its own creator. Just, uh, not right now.

Come back soon for a third post about Evangelion, which will be a headcanon and/or questionable interpretation that probably nobody wants or needs but which I feel compelled to share.

#weeaboo trash #neon genesis evangelion #anime review

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patchdotexe · 6 years ago

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So, I have a character who is a system, and I wanted to know before I develop them further, how does DID work, from a personal account? I really really really don't want to accidentally create yet another TOXIC misinterpretation of a real condition (because I know how horrible that can feel), and I hope I'm not saying anything wrong even now. (P.S. I love your blog, but I'm too shy to come off anon.)

hey anon!! it means a LOT to me that you sent this message :D theres a lot of really messy-bad potrayals of DID in the media so seeing people actually going to the effort of asking systems abt their experiences is really heartwarming for us. (plus the fact that ppl keep asking us in specific abt system stuff omg,,)

im gonna preface this by saying that, in the end, i can only really talk about my own experiences with full confidence. systems can work pretty differently from each other, but this is how we function and also some details ive noticed from system friends + general discussion over the years

so, to start off: Dissociative Identity Disorder is, at its core, your brain trying to respond to trauma in a pretty severe way. that being said there ARE systems that didnt experience severe trauma and still developed, and im not really sure about the mechanics behind that but i find it really cool and it totally exists. im gonna focus on trauma-based systems bc that’s our ~tragic backstory~ and also tends to be what most people opt for when creating system characters anyway, but the only real difference from what i can tell is, uh, a lack of trauma.

I HOPE YOU’RE READY FOR ME TO SAY THE WORD “TRAUMA” A WHOLE LOT JFC

(system friends are welcome to reblog with corrections or added info!!)

anyway. the way your brain responds to things is really weird. if something happens where you’re just, like, completely unable to handle it, like you dissociate yourself so hard because there’s no way you can manage this, your brain has a chance of going “uh… well, fuck, uh” and generating somebody who can manage it. or it might decide to be a dick and take all of the fucky internalized garbage and turn it into a person whose sole existence is to be an asshole. (they have the potential to get better, i think… ours didnt.) honestly theres a bunch of reasons and a bunch of “roles” that could lead to an alter/headmate* forming.

* we use the terms interchangeably depending on mood and whos fronting. i think its supposed to be “alter” is DID, “headmate” is implication that theyre non-traumatic? we like using “headmate” because it brings this fun mental image of us being a bunch of roommates constantly starting shit with each other and goofing off which is pretty accurate about 75% of the time

i keep getting distracted bc my cat is here. this is gonna be fun to go back and edit.

whatever the original situation is, you’re suddenly not alone in your own brain. and it’s REALLY WEIRD. communication was VERY hard. Icarus, our system original, used to do a very “cliche” thing of sharing a journal with their early headmates, where theyd write a sentence and then theyd write a reply (although back then they didnt realize that was a system-related thing and just thought they were having a fun conversation with their ocs. which… they were, just. Actually Talking.) they didnt have any inward perception of themself or their headmates either, so that kinda built up over time (with some help) along with the appearance of our headspace so that there was… actually a location for people to interact in. once they had a better awareness of things, mental communication got a bit easier– its sort of like background chatter really, when everybody’s awake. sometimes i get weird out of context things from Mae yelling at somebody, or sometimes ill be talking to a friend and someone’ll butt in.

when talking out loud, this usually leads to us suddenly stopping and then laughing or going “no!!!”. when on discord and around people who know who we are… well.

speaking of Mae, she’s pretty much my sister. not like… biologically? because i don’t think thats possible for me, but shes kinda literally my “other half” which ill get into later. headmates can have strong attachments to other alters! friends, best friends, family, dating, whatever. they can also do that with people outside the system, and itll be different for each headmate. there’s like 4 people dating Jorb but i just see him as one of my best friends. we’re people and we have complex social interactions that can get to be kind of a nightmare when you’re around a bunch of people who don’t know that you’re Not Leo and that youre suddenly not super up to existing around people in general.

plus even if like… so Jorb’s dating 4 of us like i said, but his relationship w/ each of them is different? Ica is very clingy and likes rambling to him, Summer’s pretty much just always happy to hang out, Mae makes fun of him a lot but in a loving way, and Leo is… kinda “all of the above” because that’s his gimmick. plus even tho a few other alters have a sibling-ish relationship with Mae like i do, usually its just me and Mae that do the “chaos siblings” bit.

the basic system.. thing… is that there’s “front”, which is being in control of the body– so, like, i’m currently fronting/in front, because im the one currently active and using our computer and staring at our cat.– and then theres the headspace, where everybody hangs out when theyre not in front. the headspace itself can differ in style & functionality for each system, and i think theres some systems that dont really have a location at all? but for us its like a full on location where we have individual rooms, places to visit if we get bored while away from front, etc.

theres also like, being at/near/away from front? so currently im in front, but Leo is pretty much always lurking nearby if he’s awake (we have individual sleep schedules that dont always sync up to the “irl” one, Trust is almost always sleeping), Ica’s somewhat in the back talking to Rookie so i cant really make out what theyre saying (its probably about either a youtube thing they both like or about a comic they want to do), and everyone else is either asleep (in which case they could be nearby but i cant currently “ping” them, so id have to actually take a sec to ground myself in headspace more) or in a different room. communication is easier if im in front and somebody is nearby, or it can be like with Ica rn where im like “well, theyre talking, but i have no idea what theyre saying and am making a guess based off their usual interactions”, or i could pass off front to go talk to Ica and come back (in which case my memory would be kind of vague and weird because information doesnt always properly translate), oooor i could actually go bug them while still in front. which.. im not gonna do rn bc then id get super distracted.

switching front differs between systems a lot! and even varies from day to day. like there are days where we wake up and we have absolutely no idea who we are bc we went to bed as one person and woke up as another. or we could be talking to somebody and then realize “wait, i stopped being Leo a bit ago, who am i”. or we could pass off front to somebody, like if Summer really wanted to front sie’d run up to me and let me know and we’d swap. or if something critical happens (usually a breakdown), Leo or one of the other headmates that’re more built to handle stressful situations will literally drag somebody out of front to make sure they dont hurt themself. or sometimes we throw front at people unexpectedly, like either mid-breakdown where we go “okay i dont wanna be here anymore, tag youre it” or sometimes because we think its funny because its the metaphysical equivalent of getting clonked in the head with a dodgeball, except the dodgeball is “being in control of our shared physical form”. usually mae’s the one that does that lmao

there’s a couple major categories of how alters come about. there’s “walk-ins”, where they kinda just… appear externally? like they just show up. sometimes we get a feeling of “huh. i think somebody might be here? or somebody might be showing up soon.” and have to rummage around for a while until they approach us or we find them. our walk-ins aren’t like, inherently aware of system stuff at first, so they usually get a crash course before they first front (if they choose to front at all) and it can be kinda entertaining. Rookie’s a walk-in! also Hiro, from a couple years ago. most of our walk-ins are fictives (fictional characters, usually appearing in response to us getting extremely attached to something or somebody) but a couple of our trauma splits are also fictives so that’s not like, a Rule or anything. i think these are mostly associated with non-traumatic systems but we get em fairly often so man idk

theres also… uh, i dunno what theyre actually called? we used to call them “constructs” but that sounds kind of mean. these alters exist to fill a specific role! and we usually dont talk about them on here with the exception of one major one, they just kinda hang out. Dhe exists to keep the system stable and manages the “backend” so to speak. Imp is kind of a mix of our intrusive & impulsive thoughts that came about from us trying to separate ourself from them so that we had an imaginary entity to go “nope!” at, which… stopped being imaginary, and is now a gremlin that lives in my brain. they can show up in response to trauma but arent split off of somebody, they kinda just pop into existence to help manage things.

the more… well-known, i guess? alter origin is “trauma splits”. rather than “just showing up one day with no real connection to the system origins”, trauma splits are formed when somebody in-system, uh, splits. it could be in response to a single situation or something built up over a long time, but somebody just kinda breaks and somebody new that has a bit of the original alter’s identity (if kinda influenced by the situation) shows up.

this can vary. All is a trauma split off of Leo himself, who got saddled with all of our brain hell about our ex and their insystem appearance is influenced more by eir than by leo which is… something they struggle with. Mae has a trauma split from a similar situation that is “Mae but from 2 years ago”, so basically her old identity before she reworked herself after getting put through total hell. and then uh… then there’s me and Mae! Icarus quite literally exploded into several people, with Pat (me) and Mae being the most distinct ones. we’re STILL finding out alters used to originally be a part of them that later evolved into their own people, like Summer and Toby. my identity is shaped pretty heavily not just by who Ica was at time of splitting, but also what they wanted to be jumbled together with trying to rationalize what was happening to them (they’re a pretty big fan of megaman star force, which has a media-typical system in it, so they leaned into hard “its like pat and rey from mmsf! i like pat, i wouldnt mind being like pat, its scary but im like one of my current favourite characters” and so i ended up being like, half-weird shapeshifter, half-green-haired prettyboy. and yeah thats where my name comes from!)

(Ica got put back together w/o anybody needing to integrate, which we were all very scared about, and it’s still kind of surreal to me because… me and Mae used to be able to stick ourself back together and thats how we found out about what happened to Ica in the first place? and we havent tried that since bc we have no idea what would happen. Ica 2: Ica Harder?)

despite their origins, trauma splits can be way more than… being a split. :V;; Toby’s not just a tiny splinter of Ica, he’s a quiet guy that gets stressed out and isn’t totally sure how to interact with people. i’ve existed for like 7 years at minimum and im a totally different person than i was when i thought i was still Ica, ‘cause ive had time to grow and change (and a problem Ica keeps running into now that theyre back is… they kinda Didn’t change because they were MIA for 6 years.) like everything else though this is variable– there can be “temporary” splits that dont develop properly and might get integrated back in, which has only happened to us when we were at the lowest point in our life where we were stuck constantly splitting to try and cope with whatever the hell was going on.

so Ica was gone for 6 years, which meant our system was without an original or main– there wasn’t anybody to be head of the system, basically. for a while i was operating under the assumption that i was Ica, so i filled in that role for a few years before i made the realization. eventually i kinda… stopped being able to, though, bc of stability issues, and then we were back to not really having a proper main anymore. to make up for it, we started going by Leo collectively and kinda… trying to pretend to be a single person? and so that ended up creating a construct to fill the role of “system main and the person we pretend to be when passing as singlet/not a system”: Leo himself! he’s kinda the most prominent traits we all have in common rolled into a single guy, which means that not only is he a pretty good system representative but we can also pretend to be him pretty easily (unless it’s someone like Toby who acts totally different). i dont know how common this situation is, i think normally it’s just “if system original is gone, another alter steps up” like originally happened to us before i had a severe case of problems disorder.

uhhh this is very rambley bc there’s a Lot to cover and now im trying to figure out how much of it i HAVE covered. systems are complicated and weird! OH WAIT okay i have one last bit.

so like, for us, first realizing we were a system was total hell. we fought a lot. as more alters showed up through various means, there were times where Ica felt like they were completely out of control of their own life bc of having to manage everything. there were a lot of panic attacks of people fronting and not being sure they were even REAL, despite… being in front. but we still felt like we were deluding ourself. this was in, like, late 2011, so systems weren’t a THING. they were a very fringe community that everyone hated. we got constantly harassed, which only fed into Ica’s panic hell and our identity issues. interpersonal relationships became a nightmare, especially because we have BPD as well which varies in severity for each of us but… for me it’s pretty bad! there were times early on where every day was another fun new breakdown from us arguing with each other or our friends or not being understood or… etc.

so… how are we holding up ~7 and a half years later? pretty well, actually! we talk to each other. we do things for each other, like buy food or games we know specific headmates like. Ica is back and way happier than they were in 2011, and is thrilled to get to hang out with everybody that’s showed up since. we help each other through problems, because at the end of the day our system ended up being a support network. Ica couldnt function on their own, so we’re like… 10+ people working together to try and be a single functional person. and we feel pretty okay with that! we still fight, and we still start shit, but we’re not in constant crisis anymore. we’re still working through all of our trauma, especially the more “recent” stuff that kinda broke our system for a while until we were able to start rebuilding, but we’re doing it together. :D

so… yeah, it can start out as a stereotypical “nightmare system”, with constant infighting and toxicity and self-sabotage and etc. but we worked through it! it took a while, but we’re overall more stable than we were before. we got out of the bad environment that was fucking us up, we got mental help for our other brain hell (we havent been able to bring up the system to our therapists bc its literally a non-issue now and we focus more on other things like our depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc), we found people that support us for being us, and we were able to like… figure things out. and it was a mess! i still have issues about my own identity because of literally thinking i was someone else for two years. Ica’s still trying to figure out how to adjust to things, especially bc they missed our entire “cringe culture” phase so they came back to find that i’d dismantled a lot of their middle-school settings. and, uh, some of their friendships as well.

systems are fuckin weird

#leo chirps #leos reply #system shit #i dont think i covered EVERYTHING #and im not sure how coherent this is #but i tried! :D #Anonymous #ask #pat.txt

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johnnythirteenguns · 8 years ago

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logan, not spoiler free thoughts (it got long):

anyways i saw logan yesterday and im still sensitive from it and i wouldnt know where to begin having a conversation about it with people who want to see it

as a film it’s pretty good. i didnt feel too much time was wasted, if any really, it’s tropey though. so like once it gets going it is point a to b to c to d with no variation and you spot the chekov’s guns right away and you can figure out how it’s going to end half way in. which im fine with as long a movie doesnt patronize me, and i didnt feel logan did. it was just formulaic. but it was good and watchable. there is a lot to be said for exploiting a tried and true formula for story telling but fitting it to the aesthetic of the characters therein.

also although i dont talk to movies i have realized that i am increasingly more involved with reacting to them and i dont know if this means i am more empathetic with the characters on screen because i am becoming more empathetic or if im more emotional and have nowhere to direct that emotion in my real life so i put it all into relating with the characters on a given screen and so when stuff happens to them i just really React.

that being said like im really. tired. of white characters being allowed to use brown bodies as stepping stones and footstools. there are a lot of dead brown people in this film. the main characters are all white. although dafne did an admirable job as laura, if i had the chance id recast her immediately. i wouldnt have cast her at all to be honest. i hope that when an older or adult laura shows up that they cast an actual mexican actress (not a white one). in logan they imply that the babies are clones, but there’s also implication that it was actually just in-vitro using the stolen dna the way you would use donated sperm? unless i watch it again i wont know because the language seemed unsure of itself.

but yeah. i dont. know. it’s literally too much at this point like we’re just constantly thrown under the bus so to save, create, or help white characters. for example, you know the horse family is gonna die, you know it because it’s a Trope. but it’s a black family, and they die gruesomely, which okay, everyone that dies in logan dies gruesomely and violently. but theyre the only black characters with speaking parts, and there is a dearth of them elsewhere in the fox marvel universe. rictor, one of the escaped 23s, is mexican in the comics, apparently so in the movie, and i can safely assume his actor is latinx as well (but he’s a baby and so doesnt have a ton of stuff on his imdb). he’s also the only one of the kids who is shot when they’re being chased through the woods.

i honestly dont know if i would have preferred they keep it on screen or leave it off screen. clearly brown children are afterthoughts anyway? to be used as plot devices and target dummies as needed. i dont know. i do know that i was waiting for it and i thought he was going to die. they do have a line of dialogue immediately after rictor is shot to reassure you that he isnt going to die, which is something i guess.

at any rate i really cant with child death or child abuse in media lately. i dont know how i feel about laura’s self-harm scene. not good but self-harm in media in general needs to be looked at in a case by case basis i dont know about this one.

which btw wow the actress that plays gabriela is straight up from the bronx born and raised in new york and i knew she couldnt be a primarily spanish speaker that accent grated on my ears so badly i would have preferred they find a way to have her speak spanish and english at some point to illustrate their point because whenever she spoke that accent made me desperately wish she would shut the fuck up or get to the end off her sentence if i could somehow physically share how fucking tired i am of fake mexican accents like youd faint for ten seconds from the force of my anger.

like of all the things to be that angry about but it’s honestly just One More Thing at the point and im so tired.

im really over the disposability of brown bodies and i wish it would stop.

all that being said ive been listening to this podcast and my love for the x-men and x-men adjacent characters has grown immensely over the last year and going in i was emotional about film history, about the x-men cinematic history (honestly hugh jackman has brought his a-game every time when playing logan and i thank him, even when the films themselves were lackluster), i was emotional about x-men comics history, like. i really loved how they all chose to portray the characters and the relationships between them and it was really hitting a lot of perfect notes like.

it turns into a really rough father daughter story really quickly and it got to me because of my own father, because of my possible future, it was a lot of deeply personal levels being affected. um, there’s a lot of symbolic stand-in stuff, like the canadian border, brown children crossing it alone (all their caregivers are implied to be dead to the point that they pretty much are dead due to their absence, so more dead disappeared mexican women, along with the dead teenage girls we’re told about much earlier).

i think i may have just gotten too sucked into it and too emotionally invested and am maybe looking at it through too much of a like film student lens because i was studying it for form and execution obviously and i dont feel like tropey is bad, and i say this because there were moments where most of the audience was laughing but they werent particularly funny? like haha funny moments they were a little more light-hearted (and i mean a Little, not much, to me they illuminate how very tired and hopeless logan is in comparison with other characters and the rest of the world) but because the rest of logan is couched so firmly in the same sort of world weary americana (despite none of the main characters being american, which is neither here nor there) that a film like hell or high water is that i didnt find them Funny. theyre still painful moments meant to illustrate a turning point in the characters’ relationship.

i do say this as someone who at this point just completely started crying for the rest of the movie. i was holding it back since close to the beginning because i Do like these kinds of films and stories and so im already primed to get really invested and then it just kept hitting me and. even gabriela running away with laura and how desperate but fierce they as the characters being in that situation really got me.

also there is no stinger scene so dont wait unless you want to listen to the man comes around which i love so i was fine with waiting anyway. also you see a special thanks given to all the comics creators that had a major hand in shaping laura kinney which got me and marjorie liu is listed.

#i dont know why it's telling me disposability isnt a word?

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flockofdoves · 4 years ago

Text

wait ok maybe a bad time to start this at 1:30am (<- started this post last night lmao) but i’ve been thinking so much (for a long time but this week i think maybe prompted by jonny saying stuff in the s5 q&a part 3 about fanon character designs getting more homogenous as the fandom gets bigger its really been on my mind again) about my thoughts on the magnus archives character design stuff

(this turned into such a fucking long post my god sorry lol. just writing this for my own purposes really but i feel ridiculous i spent like a good portion of the past day writing this out dkjfhgfd)

like i already said on that other post character design stuff is full of so much under the surface both really silly and almost nonsensical (like ‘oh this character just feels like they have a lot of triangles incorporated into their design’ or the slightly more connected to reality arbitrary ideas people have about what type of character might wear glasses) and stuff thats incredibly loaded and very much connected to real life systems of oppression. so its like. idk. i like drawing people and fashion and harmonizing shapes and the idea of coming up with people who dont exist through abstracted drawings that somehow click and that can feel cohesive even with different angles/expressions/poses/etc is really fun to me conceptually but Character Design(tm) as a thing even outside of established tropes and schools of it that really lean into elements that can uphold gross shit as shorthand just inevitably theres so much to consider in the implications of making a person (visually) and ascribing traits to them (or i guess in this case largely the opposite)

so thats not something id call fun its just important and inevitably a big factor if i’m going to put any of this to words and can only hope i do so non-clumsily when i wanna talk about this on the whole just bc i find the process of how fanon designs get homogenized interesting (and the purpose of it understandable and maybe a bit inevitable in certain contexts) but also regardless of any actual potential problematic implications in any of that just bc i like the creative process of coming up with character designs i like trying to see when it comes to practicing that through applying it to characters in non-visual media i care about how i can break my guides for what they could look like down to their bare essentials between canon description, things i vibe with personally, etc so that if i have all that written down for myself it can be a good starting place for just experimenting with designs (i dont have any desire to settle on any one design for these characters but its just good general practice for this stuff) and maybe pushing a bit against some things that seem to be generally defaulted to mix things up or w/e. so yeah i’ve just wanted to write all this out for myself for a while, so after that long fucking intro fdkgh here goes!

jon!!!

ok so canonically hes born about 1987 and is like roughly 28-31 throughout the series but looks older to the point where he straight up lies and says hes a decade older at one point, he has graying hair, has been described as looking like he hasnt slept in weeks

(this bullet point contains spoilers up to early s4) depending on what part of canon youre describing him in he canonically has scars from worms probably all over his body (post ep 39), a burn scar on his hand (probably right and probably roughly shaped like a handprint) (post ep 89), actually i’m checking on the wiki now and it specifically says melanie stabbed him in the shoulder? but rereading the transcript and another couple parts that i thought potentially could mention it i dont believe it ever actually specifies (maybe the person who wrote that is conflating how both melanie and daisy’s first injuries from the slaughter are on their shoulders? so even if not canon good guess i guess that his scar from thats on his shoulder) (post ep 125) plus also probably on his throat from daisy (post ep 91), somewhere from michael stabbing him (post ep 47), and who knows maybe even something from mike crew (probably not it was just the height part of things not a lightning strike but i saw fanart of him getting a lichtenberg figure scar once from that which was interesting) (post ep 91)

has been described as ‘scrawny’ and ‘little’ which may just be more of a insult but because of that i support manlet jon lol. also because of that tend to think of him as skinny and not very muscular but i’m def not opposed to him being fat i think its really fun when i do see interpretations of him as such esp in juxtaposition with martin its nice having stuff sometimes where its two fat characters in a relationship. but if i’m leaning on every little word to narrow down character design i’d say hes most likely thin and probably short too.

getting into stuff with no real canon basis, i am a fan of him having long hair like a lot of fanon has him with. its a very tangential justification because i know its more the specific events surrounding this this was describing but when he was described as a “grubby jesus” that helped lol

but! my jon hair opinion that seems to differ from fanon is that i think maybe itd make sense with him being described as looking older and stuff to give him a bit of a receding hairline

not sure about glasses either way i think it just comes down to the specific design whether it looks good or not. there is something conceptually funny to me about giving an avatar of the eye glasses and debating whether that “makes sense” or not lol. one time i saw someones design where he stopped needing to wear glasses later on and i thought that was kinda fun

i don’t really care for like. idk. glowing green eyed jon or multiple eyes or w/e. like i get it. idk probably somethings happening when hes doing like the ceaseless watcher thing or like that one scene where he forced a statement out of that person who described him as “all eyes” like the phrase but maybe not just that as a phrase. so that plus the cover art of the show being green and making people probably theme stuff on that color i guess i cant blame people for doing that but idk just like. it feels kinda just Blah and not that novel to see a lot of the time and a bit too tropey or w/e for my personal taste unless people mix it up a bit. so i tend to prefer him just looking like some guy even later on usually. also with just like brown eyes or w/e

okay so this next part is for both jon and martin because i cant fit this into either of their sections because i feel like i cant adequately talk about this without doing it in juxtaposition to one another

this post summarizes basically anything i’m reiterating here far better but basically by nature of this being a podcast written by a white person for whom most of the first characters voiced (who included most of the most frequently appearing characters outside of those described by others because they were reoccurring avatars or w/e long before voice appearances) were from a small pool of people at a majority white company and their family members, even if that wasnt “intentional” of course that pattern happens so much and more productions should be conscious of that from the get go and reach outside their immediate circles to cast more actors of color from the start of their productions if they have the resources to properly compensate them. so basically from there theres no real totally satisfying solution for portraying “aracial” characters acted and written by white people’s race, because the situation just isn’t ideal in the first place

so like, with that in mind, i know its a bit of a mixed bag with jon in fanon being pretty consistently either ambiguously a person of color or specifically south asian, because i know people of color who were excited from fanon going in for him to be a person of color only to realize hes written and voiced by a white guy and has no canon race (which might just somewhat default to him being written as white since theres no active thought to how him being a person of color, let alone any specific race or ethnicity, might affect anything), but then on the other hand, characters with no race given being defaulted to being portrayed as white is absolutely another common issue in fandoms of things like books and podcasts. so personally because of that i would feel weird portraying him as white in my own designs in contrast with how consistently hes depicted as a person of color, but i would be interested in potentially depicting him as other races beyond the default fanon of him being south asian too (although theres def stuff to consider there that doesnt prevent any interpretation but just is there regardless like his dynamic with daisy in like s4)

and then this post expresses things better than i could ever rehash, but because of the stuff outlined in there in my own attempts at character designs i try to avoid making martin white because of the juxtaposition between that and making jon a person of color in their dynamic. not as pertinent and not something i’ve taken in from any fan of color saying it so i’m definitely not dictating this just talking out my thought process, but by extension of this i’ve also tried to consider how colorism in juxtaposition between them might make it sit better to have martin have darker skin than jon. this does get a bit weird though when balancing how martin has a couple really goofy lines implying ignorance about police abusing their power (i guess charitable interpretations could be that hes plenty aware but nonetheless vocalizing shock in the moment of it actually happening in front of him), so even if as one of the few characters i’ve posted designs of before i drew him as black, when i remembered those lines i guess its just an issue of an “aracial” character being defaulted to being written as if hes white, so even if he certainly could still be black (or any race besides white who might not have the luxury of ignorance about police brutality) it just makes clear that by him being written the way he was nothings ideal because theres not necessarily much depth that can be taken from canon to make certain depictions of him as satisfying or well fleshed out as they could be. oh also so inconsequential to the rest of this and i dont care about this at all beyond just latching onto any scrap to base things off of but the fact that martin maybe knows at least some polish i feel like thats not a language most people just know from school (esp as someone who didnt go to college) or w/e so maybe his mom is polish so probably hes part white at least to wildly extrapolate from there? idrc tho its just one more thing to note on the subject depictions of jon and martins races

martin!

canonically the same age as jon (so approximately born 1987 and roughly 28-31 throughout the series)

theres at least like 4 things in canon that can be used to say hes canonically fat, and some of those lines also more just generally describe him as “big” or w/e so while i dont care about sticking to this as much its easy to argue hes tall too (esp that one point where he says a worm “jumped literally 6 feet through the air at my face” which i guess could be approximate or the worm like. arcing lol and also iirc jonny says he doesnt remember writing that line but regardless its another thing to latch onto to narrow down design stuff)

melanie!

canonically has a scar on her shoulder (as of late 2016), probably on her leg too (if not by early 2017 then by early 2018/ep 125), and is described as skinny

(spoilers for late s4) (also eye trauma mention) post ep 155 she’s blind but trying to research what exactly she might look like like would the results of the damage she does with the awl after going to the hospital would her eyes need to be eviscerated vs enucleated? idk. thinking about lydia saying in a s3 extra in retrospect talking about this where shes like ‘it wouldn’t work like that with [an awl]!’ bc . lol yeah idk. or like would she have scarring on her eyelids or anything, would she have glass eyes, would she feel a need to wear sunglasses to protect her eyes or as a visual cue that shes blind (bc idt shed be the type to just wear it to hide her eyes) or not, etc. i’m not sure! one thing i do know for sure though thats a pet peeve in art is that people make her cane have a red stripe on it when it the UK especially a red striped white cane is for deafblind people, so her cane is most likely just plain white (also theres different styles of white canes but from researching i think shed probably make use of a long cane imo)

my biggest non-canon appearance thought about her is just. melanie king butch 💗

i do think its fun when characters get drawn with unnaturally colored dyed hair for no real reason and do think people should have fun with that more but simultaneously the contrarian in me gets annoyed with how common blue grown out roots straight hair bob melanie is. like the fun of the novelty of being ‘fuck it dying this characters hair’ gets sucked out of it from it being so consistent in fanon. also while she def could be a long haired butch or w/e regardless i just wish fanon of her was way more masc for my own self indulgent reasons

basira

i think the only canonical appearance description is the implication that shes not thin by jared when describing her, melanie, and martin, distinguishing melanie as “the skinny one”

hussain specifically as a surname spelled that way while i’m def no expert, from people i know personally and looking online too seems to be most common specifically with pakistani, indian, and bangladeshi muslims so it makes the most sense to have her be depicted as south asian. considering her VA, her being part black could make sense too but also i feel like its kinda a Thing in a lot of media where they’ll barely have black characters but when they do they’ll make them cops so like idk that’d def require more thought to it.

definitely not on authority on this of course this is just me talking through my own thoughts but i feel like maybe the common fanon of her being a hijabi feels a bit just like . theres not much thought behind it for a lot of people doing it? like it feels like ‘she has a muslim name’ -> ‘she’s muslim’ -> ‘she wears a hijab’ and not much else. like theres just like a whole lot that would need to be unpacked with any main character being religious in this series and actually specifically iirc theres a part in season 5 or something where her and jon reflect on the implications of all this on human religion? and both seem a bit agnostic in their approach. and of course theres people who wear hijabs who arent particularly religious (just like obviously vice versa) but for adults in places that arent majority muslim i feel like a main motivator for that would be connection with ones wider community? but basically all of the main characters in this story like necessarily with the themes and how all this was able to happen to them they feel pretty atomized from any real community (she specifically is paralleled with martin in how she latches onto daisy) none of this is at all to say she couldn’t be practicing islam and/or a hijabi but just that if thats how people want to depict her i think it deserves more thought than just drawing her as such (like for one example of how people have done cool things with making characters muslim i appreciate this artists comics about muslim jon (1, 2, 3)) but yeah! idk just something i’ve been thinking about but very much is not something i can act like an authority on of course. because being a hijabi is something stigmatized i do nonetheless feel slightly weird if i were to go against that fanon but idk

part of me is like ‘we dont need more butch cops’ but then the other part of me just defaults to wanting to make every woman gnc lol. for w/e reason i tend to picture her dressing pretty practically in like khaki cargo pants and hiking boots and flannels and such

daisy

canonically theres here starburst shaped scar on the back of her shoulder

(spoilers for mid s4) i dont care to find it now but i feel like once she was described as scrawny or skinny or whatever (not sure how much focusing on muscle vs thinness if so) but if so that was after she came out of the coffin so i dont think that really implies she always looked like that and i think maybe even by contrast could be implying she was muscular before

def think it makes sense to make her white. generally i do see her similar to fanon depictions of her although i do kinda wish in juxtaposition people would make more women look butch besides her. i think when i first pictured her before seeing fanart or anything it was pretty similar in build and hair color and demeanor such as most of fanon but i pictured her with like . you know like the tight bun women in the military wear lol. so its more ambiguous if her flavor of powertripping “tough” white woman is gay or not. but idrc regardless i dont plan on making much art of her

tim

uhhh i think the only canonical description of him beyond his worm scars (post ep 39) is that basira called him hot in comparison to jon and martin lol

ever since i started listening i keep defaulting to picturing him vaguely like tim from marble hornets lol. so like idk i think its fun when he has defined eyebrows and sideburns and stuff. but not even that i’m really Set on i think theres a lot of fun potential designs for him

sasha

canonically has long hair, is tall, and has glasses

(spoilers for either end of s1 or end of s2 depending on if you’ve figured out something. if you know you know lol) like obviously theres weird stuff in juxtaposition if you make not!sasha a different race than her. i think probably regardless theyre the same race considering melanie didnt note that when describing what sasha looked like. idrc about figuring out what not!sasha looks like ig if i ever make art of her i’ll just figure it out

i think this was the first art i ever saw of her like right around the week or so i started listening to the show that was posted and a mutual reblogged it so i think from basically the start thats how i pictured her essentially. but the main parts of ‘long dark hair, glasses’ i internalized from that are so close to just canon so maybe not saying much

georgie

uhhhh i dont think theres any canon description of her? and i dont have very many opinions on what she does look like honestly except that i think she looks very bisexual lol. i like the idea of her presenting pretty gnc but still maybe having some fun with feminine aesthetics too, but honestly making her present totally masc is really cool too

oh also wrt body type stuff. part of me is a bit tired of how sometimes it feels like fat characters only get to be in romantic relationships if its with skinny characters and rarely are there character designs of two fat people together and melanie is canonically skinny (which doesnt really matter i Could ignore it but i like latching onto descriptions just to narrow things down) and jons maybe implied to be which makes jon/martin like that too. but on the other hand idec i care more about just having fat wlw characters so if melanie in all i project on her cant be that then georgie will be

oliver!

only canonical description of him i believe is “tall, black and careworn, deep lines of worry etched into an otherwise handsome face”

uhh beyond that idk.. not really set on this at all but i feel like maybe he dresses like. business goth lol. like idk. well put together casual clothes like nice quality short sleeve button ups and chinos or nice cuffed jeans but maybe darker colors and a bit of a vaguely edgy but not tacky flair (like fucking idk. raven pattern button up or something lol)

i saw some art of him once where he had long locs and also just idk he was like doing that ominous floaty thing which included his hair and that had a nice rhythm in the art together with the black tendrils in the background so i could appreciate him having long locs/braids/twists or something. but def not set on that and ofc theres like a lot of years to depict him between he could have various hair styles

this is hard to really judge but ive seen posts where people are like ‘haha i draw oliver just like i drew kravitz in the adventure zone’ which is like vaguely annoying to me idk lol. but of course i cant Really know if thats what people are doing from depiction alone bc theres no set appearance for kravitz himself but sometimes i get the Vibes thats whats someones doing and its just like. whatever idk. branch out and design another character!!

there are literally soooooo many more characters i really thought i could make a short-ish thing for each character beyond a few necessary addendums but god even on inconsequential shit this post is already SO fucking long lol so i’m giving up for now i’ve done most of the main people plus my favorite side character so its fine i can get back to this later if i really want to

#cpost #tma blogging #i try to note spoilers on individual bullet points throughout this so it should be fine to read if you avoid those bullet points i think #even if youre not finished with the podcast

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comicteaparty · 6 years ago

Text

September 6th, 2018 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on September 6th, 2018, from 5PM - 7PM PDT. The chat focused on MORBIDITY by Charu.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB START!

Good evening, everyone~! This week’s Thursday Book Club is officially beginning! Today we are discussing MORBIDITY by Charu~! (https://tapas.io/series/MORBIDITY)

Remember that Thursday discussions are completely freeform! However, every 30 minutes I will drop in OPTIONAL discussion questions in case you’d like a bit of a prompt. If you miss out on one of these prompts, you can find them pinned for the chat’s duration. Additionally, remember that while constructive criticism is allowed, our focus is fun and respectfully appreciating the comic. All that said, let’s begin!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

Superjustinbros

Ello!

RebelVampire

good day, SJ

Superjustinbros

Good day to you as well

RebelVampire

lets see, i think not so much a full scene, but one of my favorite moments is when Yuuto asks Keagan why Keagan let him in if Keagan doesn't recognize him. and keagan just has the best expression while saying he wonders himself. it was such a great insert of comedy in that moment that i couldnt help but laugh. i also think it was kind of a great showcase for keagan's personality as well

Superjustinbros

https://tapas.io/episode/1111726 I dunno why but I got a bit of a chuckle out of this scene

With how... sudden the tone changed

RebelVampire

i do enjoy how confused keagan looks in this part. i like the sense of ominous with that broken piece on the plant though. it screams with beautiful foreshadowing i hope at least.

Superjustinbros

Yeah

RebelVampire

ive also been enjoying how the recent chapter has been going. mostly with how its framed in that we never really get to see who i assume is ryo really. its focused on keagan and i like that it makes ryo seem a tad more mysterious

saetje

My favorite scene is definitely near the end of the content where Ryo starts freaking out/getting corrupted. I think it’s at that point we’re getting a sort of taste for a mood shift that’s going to be happening

Superjustinbros

I couldn't think of a good way to mention that little... episode earlier

but it definitely seems strange(edited)

saetje

I also agree I like that ryo is only seen through Keegan’s eyes right now. Solely focusing on Keegan’s perspective leaves ryo on a pedestal currently. I have a feeling we’re going to learn more about ryo later, but it’s smart to start us off through Kaegan’s eyes

RebelVampire

i like how with the whole mood shift that ryo was super accurate in that he was spoiling the mood. i particularly loved when yuuto caught up to ryo cause at that point just the sheer imagery and what was going on made me feel that the situation was truly dangerous

mathtans

I made it. ^^ Rebel, I liked that same scene, where Yuuto then remarks on how it's good he's trustworthy or whatnot.

Superjustinbros

MATH

mathtans

I didn't even notice the planet, whoa.

Hi all!

Superjustinbros

The end of the chapter looks like the start of some kind of crazy creepypasta(edited)

mathtans

Yuuto's attitude in general is pretty fun in my mind (okay if I play games?) but it definitely took a turn with the reactions towards the end. I think he didn't do his research on Keagan.

RebelVampire

haha it does kind of have a creepypasta vibe. i can picture the reddit thread for r/nosleep now. XD

to be fair to yuuto its been like 16 years so ryo would be a poor source of keagan info and maybe keagan is an internet hermit who doesnt even have facebook

saetje

I think it’s an interesting thought that kaegan’s attachment to Ryo is a little selfish. It seems as though it’s literally tethering Ryo’s ghost from moving on and putting his spirit (and others?) in danger, as well as ruining kaegan’s own relationships and life. Kaegan does seem quite overly obsessed(edited)

mathtans

It's possible. I wonder if Ryo was paying more attention to Keagan for a long time (either of his own volition or not) and only recently got his brother involved... then Yuuto didn't realize how bad things were.

seatje: Agreed. I wonder if maybe he was partly responsible for Ryo's death.

saetje

Oh that’s an interesting thought, math!

RebelVampire

yeah tbh i adore how grey it is. cause you could make an argument equally as valid in saying its selfish for ryo to ask keagan to move on. and i love that cause its what makes the conflict complicated and complex. cause there isnt one right answer cause you just cant make ppl feel things you want to feel at the drop of a hat.

saetje

So true

mathtans

I can't think of another good reason why he'd obsess that much. Even if they were lovers (which is kind of implied), I figure there has to be more to it...?

Yup, humans are a complex mess.

RebelVampire

nah they werent lovers cause huge age diff. i think the summary says it was a one-sided crush.

Superjustinbros

Right they are, math

RebelVampire

so theres def something fishy going on here

mathtans

I'm actually kind of reminded of a serial I wrote on a similar topic, which occurred to me as I was reading too. It's a good theme to build on.

saetje

I’m a little confused by the timeline- was kaegan young and just had a crush on an older ryo or did they get to a point of being consenting lovers?

Oh! Rebel answered

mathtans

Rebel: Ahh, good point, missed that. Guess I jumped to conclusions given the circumstances of when we first heard the name.

RebelVampire

“Nine year old Keagan had a onesided crush on eightteen year old Ryo. Then, Ryo died. Nearly sixteen years later Ryo's little brother Yuuto comes into Keagan's life to tell him to "get over Ryo's death".”

just so everyone can be on the same page

Superjustinbros

Thanks, Rebel.

RebelVampire

i take the implication to be that ryo died when keagan was 9

saetje

Okay, there you go! Thank you

RebelVampire

which man, props to keagan for A+ memory. i barely remember anything from when i was 9 XD

mathtans

Could still have been somewhat responsible though, even if young.

I barely remember things from last week sometimes. O.o

Superjustinbros

I remember a lot of things from my childhood

just saying

I practically remember how all the rooms in my house looked when I was that age

saetje

I was just thinking that, ha. Sixteen years is a long time to hold onto something, especially from childhood in such a strong way. But I guess it was also such a traumatic event for him, which tends to stick more too

Superjustinbros

and how my schools looked at the time I attended.

RebelVampire

yeah i guess if were being fair id have remembered a traumatic death. but it implies super closeness i think that goes beyond a one-sided crush. so theres definitely more to see there

QUESTION 2. While it’s clear that Keagan and Ryo had past history, a lot is left to question. How do you believe Keagan and Ryo met, especially considering their age difference? Why do you think Keagan crushed so hard on Ryo despite the age difference between them? Do you think the attachment to Ryo was born purely out of affection, or do you think there’s more to Keagan’s past that explains the attachment? Do you think the way Ryo died has something to do with why Keagan can’t move forward? Or is it something in general perhaps about Keagan’s past history with Ryo? Lastly, why do you think Keagan remembers Ryo so well but seems completely clueless about Yuuto?

gives self A+ for beautiful segway

mathtans

Or segue, even.

saetje

Oh that’s true- how could he not know yuuto?

mathtans

Maybe Yuuto's a half-brother?

saetje

I have a thought that yuuto may be a trans man? So perhaps he transitioned and presented as a girl on the past?

Superjustinbros

I wonder, if Ryo didn't die, would Keagan find it more easy to move forward?

mathtans

Yuuto's also younger, so maybe Ryo left home at 16 or something and didn't talk about his family.

saetje

Just feels as though the artist is fairly good at drawing anatomy of all sexes, not shying away from lgbt content, and yuuto seems intentionally more slender and androgynous. But it’s just a passing thought/hunch , I could be wrong

mathtans

On the topic of how they met... maybe they met online first? Or through some sort of spiritual connection? That could also explain the difficulty in letting go.

saetje

Yeah it’s also possible he never met Yuuto?

Superjustinbros

What was technology like back when Keagan was younger

I wonder

mathtans

Saeje: Could be, I guess based on some of the Q&A stuff I just see him as a guy with his own style.

Superjustinbros

Cause when I was that age the internet was like, brand new

mathtans

That who never met Yuuto, Keagan or Ryo himself?

saetje

Ah, I tend to skim q&a stuff so it’s possible I missed some key character insights

RebelVampire

dont discount the trans theory. never impossible. and i assume theyre following our time line so internet was probably like it was 16 years ago.

i feel like keagan must of met yuuto tho

just cause yuuto showed up thinking keagan would obviously know him somehow

and if they never met there is no reason for yuuto to assume that

and in all honesty it seems most likely that keagan met ryo through yuuto

just cause yuuto and keagan seem closer in age maybe

mathtans

I guess I just assumed that the "would obviously know" part came from the fact that if you're obsessing over a guy for 15+ years, you'd look into his family. Come to think, maybe they met at the funeral and Keegan simply doesn't recall that.

Assuming that there was a funeral, and it's not a case of Ryo's body vanishing after being murdered by an evil demon that Keagan unleashed upon the world.

saetje

just found this on the 'q&a' section, but might not be canon:(edited)

mathtans

(Oh no, new channel, I can't do my trolling face...)

Superjustinbros

Dawwww!!!

saetje

so I'm probably wrong aaand! I guess they did know each other, but it's just likely Kaegan didn't recognize him right away. I mean his style did change quite a lot

mathtans

Right, I saw that, I guess I didn't immediately think it was an actual photo as much as an artist rendering.

RebelVampire

ah yeah i was just gonna point that image out from the Q&A!

mathtans

Yuuto dyes the hair now.

Superjustinbros

well people do change a lot when they age

mathtans

I wonder if he went into the practice in part because of whatever happened to Ryo.

Maybe it used to be Ryo's thing.

Now gotta pick up the slack in the family.

RebelVampire

yeah to be fair if yuuto and keagan lost contact, of course he probably doesnt recognize yuuto after 16 years old.

Superjustinbros

Exactly

saetje

yeah

RebelVampire

and yuuto is silly in retrospect to expect that. but hard to say what the nature of the relationship was

maybe keagan and yuuto were bestest friends, yuuto introduced keagan to ryo, and then keagan was like "who are you im busy crushing on this cool older fellow"

saetje

It's not improbable they (kaegan and yuuto) were friends first, and Kaegan just crushed real bad on the older brother, which would also make sense why it was so one-sided but they would also be hanging out (as he was probably hanging out with/chaperoning his little brother, and consequently his little brother's friends as well)(edited)

mathtans

Maybe it's something a bit more supernatural. Like, Keagan tried some sort of "forget" spell on Ryo but it backfired so much that he forgot Yuuto instead.

RebelVampire

thatd be tragic, tho would be more likely itd be yuuto doing the spell casting.

albeit to this notion of keagan and yuuto being friends, we dont really see yuuto in the flashbacks so far so its also possible something else was going on. like ryo was keagan's tutor or something

im gonna go out on a limb and suspect that keagan did not have a happy home life

and thus the attachment to ryo cause ryo was an adult who was showing him kindness

mathtans

That's a very good thought.

Interesting how in the bit of flashback we've seen, Ryo is trying to get Keagan to skate on his own, metaphor for life?

Superjustinbros

Oh yea

That would traumatize someone, seeing an adult that they once loved died

RebelVampire

oh ya know what, i wasnt even reading that scene metaphorically. good catch, math~!

metaphorically i certainly is very telling of what keagan is feeling

mathtans

Seems like even back then, before Ryo died, Keagan had issues. Tied in with your unhappy home life thing.

Superjustinbros

RebelVampire

but im just taking a stab in the dark tbf. i just feel like theres gotta be more than one-sided crush. and that ryo's death is tied up in personal demons

albeit you could be right that keagan somehow caused ryo's death

mathtans

Keagan introduced the cat, not knowing about the deadly cat allergy.

RebelVampire

has it been stated how ryo died?

mathtans

If so, I missed it.

I just offer up my crazy theories.

RebelVampire

i dont recall either so how ryo died could have a lot to do with things even if keagan didnt cause it

QUESTION 3. The entire plot of the comic is essentially based around one question: will Keagan be able to move on from Ryo? What do you think is holding Keagan back exactly? Is it fear of the future without Ryo, true love, or some sort of inner demon? Do you think Keagan is sincere when he says he has tried to move on, or do you suspect self-sabotage? Even if Keagan gets over Ryo, do you think Ryo will successfully be able to move on? How do you even think Keagan might get over Ryo? Also, what do you think Yuuto and/or Suzy’s role if any might be in helping him move forward? Finally, do you have any theories in general for future events of the comic?

mathtans

I feel like it's one of those things where after you move on, you're worried you'll forget details... which is true enough. But Keagan's got himself so tied up in it that he might forget things about himself. I don't know that it's anything external.

RebelVampire

oh ya know what, i never thought of it from that perspective. that he doesnt want to move on cause hes afraid of all the memories vanishing in the breeze

mathtans

Also, I think Keagan might have tried to move on in the past, but after it didn't work a couple times he just goes through the motions now to appease others around him.

Not just memories of Ryo, but memories of how happy he was back then. Maybe the happiest he'd ever been?

Superjustinbros

Perhaps

Then again it can be hard to move on form something

and even if you do, memories of what happened can still haunt you(edited)

RebelVampire

tbf this makes me reconsider that maybe keagan's attachment is not bred from a bad past, but a lackluster present.

Superjustinbros

That could be the case

RebelVampire

in that maybe keagan has continually had life issues that have made him cling to that happiness

like what does keagan do for a living even O_O maybe he missed out on dat dream job

mathtans

Could be a bit of both.

Maybe he's an insurance salesman.

"Please buy this life insurance... I have this whole story about how sad people will be if you die..."

RebelVampire

spirit insurance. if only yuuto had come to him sooner, yuuto couldve gotten ryo's spirit state ensured. yuuto is gonna miss out on that sweat afterlife policy money now

in regards to keagan's sincerity in trying to move on, i actually think it was subconscious self-sabotage. so in that he was doing everything he was told mentally and physically, but there was that small tiny part of his brain continually whispering how nothing would ever be right again without ryo

mathtans

Which reminds me, I wonder where Yuuto had to go to get the stone.

There probably was some self-sabotage, or at least Ryo seemed keen on calling him on that.

Maybe Yuuto was guided to find the stone by Ryo...? Wait, no, because Ryo didn't even think it would work. We're not sure what any of their day jobs are, are we?

RebelVampire

well yuuto said he was a spirit medium. albeit doesnt mean thats a career technically speaking. idk if being a spirit medium can pay these days without people staring and accusing you of being a fraud. or ya know if you get a reality tv show.

cleary the entire comic is just a tv show hoax so yuuto can become the most prolific spirit medium on tv

mathtans

A spirit medium's rare.

He seems to know what he's doing though. I wonder if Ryo sought him out for that reason, or if it's just a freebie for the family.

Superjustinbros

Now that'd be quite a twist

RebelVampire

that or ryo just had nowhere to go. i mean its like theres much to do as a ghost i imagine

cause you cant touch things or anything

or talk to anyone

you just float around and look at stuff

but considering the cover to chapter 1, i will say that its not just keagan holding ryo back. cause ryo is clearly chained to both yuuto and keagan and i dont think yuuto has quite moved on himself.

mathtans

Oh, that's an interesting point with the visual. Does the chaining work both ways, I wonder, or is it a matter of Yuuto's moved on but is still linked to Ryo out of necessity?

Ghost karaoke might be pretty neat.

Superjustinbros

Poor Ryo :<

For real tho ghost karaoke sounds metal as heck(edited)

mathtans

As far as the future of the comic goes, I figure we'll see the results of a spirit being darkened somehow, either directly or in the history books or something.

RebelVampire

oooooh

did not consider that but i hope thats the case

that we actually get to see a vengeful spirit not ryo

cause i feel like keagan is the type who goes by the mantra seeing is believing

in the sense that yuuto will tell him, keagan will be like "suuuure"

and then vengeful spirit will be seen and keagan will be like "RYO NOOOOOO"

mathtans

"You see this building?" "No." "That's because a ghost KNOCKED IT DOWN." "Ahhhh!" ^.^

Do you think Ryo can see other spirits? Like, would have an idea of what's happening to himself? Or is it not obvious internally?

RebelVampire

idk about seeing other spirits but maybe? i do think ryo has some idea about whats happening to him tho. cause i get the impression that its not so much the spirit ceases to be themselves as it is that they become engulfed in their own emotional vengence and can think of nothing else

mathtans

Ryo: "Look, the ghost of Christmas Future."

RebelVampire

but dont quote me on that, cause theres a lot to be learned about spirits

mathtans

Ooh, emotional vengence is an interesting one... do you think Ryo might hurt Keagan? (And that Keagan would just totally take it?)

RebelVampire

QUESTION 4. Events in the comic come about solely because of the actions of the mysterious Yuuto. Do you believe Yuuto’s motivations are purely to protect his brother’s spirit, or do you think he might be up to something else? How do you think Yuuto wound up becoming a spirit medium? Was it family tradition, a career choice for Yuuto to connect with spirits (and his brother by extension), or was it happenstance? Considering it’s been 16 years, why do you think Yuuto waited so long to come to Keagan? Did Ryo’s spirit only come to Yuuto’s attention recently, or did Yuuto feel no need to take action until Ryo was becoming a vengeful spirit? Additionally, why do you think Ryo has been stable as a spirit over all those years and is only now coming undone? What consequences would there be if Ryo became a vengeful spirit at the end?

RebelVampire

if ryo became of vengful spirit then yes

cause the vengful part implies vengence

and clearly the vengence is gonna be aimed at the ppl not letting you move on

Superjustinbros

Well it's part of the name

mathtans

Could just be aimed at humans in general. Or for that matter, at spirit mediums, maybe that's part of the reason Yuuto's motivated. Doesn't want ghosts messing up his profession.

RebelVampire

could be. it actually would also depend how mindful of vengful spirit is. cause if theyre driven by pure emotion than they might not be consciously able to target their hurt and just lash out at anyone

mathtans

Also, maybe Ryo hasn't been stable as a spirit over all those years? Maybe he was more etherial, and it's only in the last year or so that he's been able to manifest himself to Yuuto.

RebelVampire

that could be

Superjustinbros

Seems like that could be the case, @mathtans

He's never been stable cause he's had someone latching onto him for years

even in death

He can never escape affection

RebelVampire

or ya know, we have no idea how long yuuto has been a medium

maybe yuuto has literally been a medium for all of 2 weeks

and just happens to be smug about it XD

mathtans

He graduated from being a small last year.

Maybe he's not even the most powerful medium in town, just the one most connected? Keagan might seek out others for more information.

I wonder if Ryo can possess people, now that he's levelling up.

saetje

That would be scary

I’m interested to know how like a corrupted ghost like ryo could/will harm those around them

mathtans

Oh! Maybe Keagan is just a prognosticator, because Ryo is going to possess Suzy, and that's why he used the name at the start.

"I have foreseen this."

Superjustinbros

Guess this is gonig further into the idea that this story's gonna get a lot more creepier

mathtans

I think it can still be lighthearted though. In fact, that makes some of the other moments (a la Release Me) all the more eye opening.

Superjustinbros

Yea

good point

RebelVampire

possession would certainly be quite dangerous. though idk how that fulfills vengence. unless the plan is to possess keagan, spend all keagan's money, and then roll out

Superjustinbros

Christ

that's cold

mathtans

"I spent it all on potato chips."

Superjustinbros

I would totally do that

RebelVampire

if im going to assume yuuto is actually also chaining ryo to the mortal plane, i actually want to assume ryo has been around for a while and yuuto himself just didnt want to do anything about it. and was like "nah its fine well get you to move on soon bro lets spend time together." and only now when ryo is going crazy is yuuto like "oops"

but this begs a question suddenly

how the heck did they even know its keagan's fault?

like is there magic ghost senses going on here?

are they just visiting everyone who knew ryo and accusing them?

Superjustinbros

All this time I was thinking "who is this ghost boy just chilling around everyone" until I noticed it's Ryo

mathtans

I suppose I just figured that Ryo would know who was tying him down/thinking of him.

Given the need to have the stone, I don't think they'd be walking around semi-randomly.

I'm also not convinced that Yuuto is tying him down. Maybe he's just acting as an anchor, like, to keep you from getting pulled way over there to the dark places, hold onto a piece of me.

Superjustinbros

I can see that

mathtans

Though it could have morphed into something else over all this time.

Maybe even something neither of them see.

What with both of them wearing glasses.

Superjustinbros

Lol

mathtans

Actually, any comments on art style? I'm very bad for really noticing that stuff. Nice shading though?

Superjustinbros

It's got some good shading, I'll say.

Backgrounds aren't super detailed but that's alright since they're not the focus

https://tapas.io/episode/1089748 Though some of the more trippy ones like these are cool

mathtans

Spirit craziness.

Superjustinbros

Playing with spirits is some really trippy stuff

"What kind of drugs are you taking"

mathtans

That androgynous look that sae brought up is a good point too; I can see it, but Yuuto still comes across as male (and in the genderbend art for q&a as female).

RebelVampire

visually i think the comic stands out most when the tone shifts to the creepy. cause thats when the effects really are A+ and just capture that nice unsettling feel

Superjustinbros

Exactly

saetje

I think the art is pretty good! Artist has a good eye for anatomy, I appreciate the character designs.

I agree the art style is neat when it gets creepy

Superjustinbros

Anatomy especially

Plus the creepy stuff is out of place that it can surprise the viewer when comparing it to the comic's normal art

saetje

Yeah, they vary their body types and really understand anatomy! Very solid character construction

Superjustinbros

Indeed

saetje

Ohh yeah good point Superjustinbros

It sort of gives this vibe of duality

Superjustinbros

Indeed

Like you got a normal world

and a creepy spiritual one

like dimensional rifts between two universes that don 't belong

saetje

Yeah!

mathtans

I liked seeing how some of the character designs shifted in the behind the scenes stuff.

As for my usual shipping thoughts.... hmmm... Suzy and Yuuto? He did feel bad for her. ^.-

saetje

He also seemed to check her out walking up the stairs

RebelVampire

i do hope suzy has a role in this because at the very least i hope she gets her underwear back XD

saetje

Ha! Also bras are expensive so, yeah, definitely.

mathtans

Oh, right! That little whistle.

Superjustinbros

Gotta go for that underwear! XD

saetje

She needs those back

Superjustinbros

Definitely

mathtans

It's interesting that Yuuto has an earring which is an inverted cross too, I think.

Superjustinbros

Well this is the last minute, so I'd like to say good luck to charuchii on continuing the comic.

mathtans

I'm all for more Suzy partly to see if she has some girl friends she talks to as well. Normal people.

Superjustinbros

It was fun chatting~

mathtans

It's a very interesting premise!

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB END!

Sadly, this wraps up this week’s Thursday Book Club chat for now. Thank you so much to everyone for reading and joining us! We want to give a special thank you to Charu, as well, for making MORBIDITY. If you liked the comic, make sure to support Charu’s efforts however you’re able to~!

Read and Comment: https://tapas.io/series/MORBIDITY

Charu’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/charuchii

Comic Tea Party- Thursday Book Club

Next week’s Thursday Book Club will be about Gemini Journey by Tracy MacLauchlan & Yesenia Carrero. For participants, you have the next week to read as much of the comic as you would like~! We hope to see you on Thursday, September 13th, from 5PM to 7PM PDT for the chat in #thursday_bookclub!

Comic’s Main Site: http://geminijourney.com/

Comic’s LINE Webtoon Mirror: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/gemini-journey/list?title_no=111693

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indiecomics #comic chat #comic discussion #book club #bookclub #webcomic book club #webcomic bookclub #comic book club #comic bookclub #comic tea party #ctp #morbidity #charu

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roberrtnelson · 7 years ago

Text

Is the Typical Patient Receiving Opiate Medications at Risk for Fatal Opioid Overdose?

There is a lot of fear lately about opiate addiction. Do we all need to be worried though?

The Huffington Post says that “The Ontario Drug Policy Research Network points out that for 2016, opioid prescriptions are down but overdose deaths are up, so clearly the deaths are mainly among addicts and not those given prescriptions.”

But let’s take a moment and really look at this. The article is arguing that “normal people” who get an injury are not really at risk of dying from opiate overdose, and therefore the fears are overblown.

I think that this is potentially dangerous thinking. Let’s break it down a bit further.

I don’t want to be an alarmist here, and I am trying to be careful not to overreact. But quite honestly, let’s look at what they are really measuring, and the timeline that they are using.

So what is happening is that they are collecting data and trying to determine if there is a real risk involved in prescribing opiates to various people.

But what they are measuring is actually the possible end result of a long ordeal with opiate addiction–they are measuring opiate overdose “deaths.”

Okay, fine. They want to know how many “regular people” end up dying from an opiate overdose when they casually go to the emergency room after breaking their wrist.

But is this really what we should be measuring? Are opiate overdose fatalities really the best measure of addiction in our world today?

What about the closet opiate addict who buys Vicodin on the street at 2 dollars a pop so that they can maintain their habit, while still holding down a job? That person doesn’t fit into this data because they are not fatally overdosing on opiates. And yet they are still living a life of addiction and should still be considered if we are attempting to study the full implications of opiate drugs in our society.

The article seems to assume that there are two groups of people.

The first group would be heroin addicts and established opiate addicts who are seeking to get high any way that they can, so they go to the emergency room with an injury or ailment in the hopes of getting some kind of opiate. These are the people that are dying from overdoses according to the thinking here.

The second group of people would be “regular people” who end up going to the emergency room with a legitimate complaint of pain, and they are getting opiate medications and they are not dying from fatal overdoses.

Now if you are measuring these two groups of people and you look at one month after the ER visit, or 6 months after the ER visit, or even a year or two later, you are going to find that the “normal people” are generally never dying from a fatal opiate overdose.

But that doesn’t mean that “normal people” never go to the ER and get hooked on painkillers. Because they can and they do. And this happens all the time.

The timeline is important here. Opiate addiction can be fairly quick to progress, but it isn’t necessarily instantaneous chaos and death. So when we measure the data and we are looking at people who are taking prescription opiates, the idea that they might become addicted and have a fatal overdose within a year or so is not that realistic. It isn’t going to happen that quickly in most cases, because they will slowly build up a tolerance over time.

If you look at everyone who goes to rehab for opiate addiction, you will notice that the governments are now asking the question: “Did your heroin addiction start out as a prescription to pain relief medication?” or something similar to that. They are looking to see how all of these opiate based drugs are affecting everyone, and how much they are really driving addiction and illicit drug use.

So the article makes the point that if you are a “normal person” and you go to the emergency room to be treated for pain, you probably are not going to die of a fatal opiate overdose any time soon. And that is certainly true, no real argument here.

But that also kind of misses the point. A fatal overdose is not the only negative outcome that we should be watching out for. Another concerning outcome would be “enjoyed the Vicodin prescription just a little too much and is now prone to exaggerate injuries and pain.” That can become the start of what might one day snowball into a much bigger problem.

It is important to realize that opiate based medications do not actually reduce physical pain in the body. What opiates technically do is that they “dope the brain” in such a way that they cause the brain to care less about the pain signals that it is receiving. But opiates do not actually reduce the pain signals that are firing inside of the human brain. They just dampen our ability to perceive those pain signals.

There are painkiller medications that can actually reduce the pain signals being sent to the brain by treating the pain right at the source of inflammation. This would include medications such as NSAIDS. Such medication can actually reduce the amount of pain that is occurring in the body.

So I think the answer is that we ultimately should exercise more caution than what we currently do when it comes to treating our pain in this country. When doctors are quick to prescribe an opiate, we should be second guessing that and asking if there is a more direct way to medicate the pain or not. We should also be conscious of the pain scale and be realistic about what a reasonable amount of discomfort is in our lives.

Unfortunately, a new attitude has emerged that basically says “modern medicine should be able to alleviate ALL of my pain.” That is just plain unrealistic. Every person is likely to have some form of difficult pain in their life that may cause some discomfort, and it is not realistic to medicate that pain all the way down to zero. Sure, we should seek some relief. But we should not demand that our pain of “9” on the scale be brought down to a zero or a 1 at all times. This kind of attitude is what helps to create dependency and addiction in the first place, and should be avoided.

The post Is the Typical Patient Receiving Opiate Medications at Risk for Fatal Opioid Overdose? appeared first on Spiritual River Addiction Help.

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jaylazoey · 7 years ago