#i've got miiiiiiixed feelings on otto man

[navree]

Happy weekend!

I wanted to ask what you make of Otto comparing Alicent to his wife. I definitely see the manipulation behind it, especially knowing that Alicent was close to her mother given that’s one of the main reasons she goes and prays at the sept.

But there’s also something about Otto standing up and staring Daemon down when he brings up his deceased wife and something about how he compares Alicent to her mother when she’s standing up to him at certain points.

And now that I think about, maybe this adds a bit more bite to Rhaenyra lying on her mother’s grave. At that point both Rhaenyra and Otto have used her mother to manipulate her.

Thank you, I hope you enjoy your weekend!

Thanks for the well wishes anon! Weekend's gonna be busy cuz I've got transfer application deadlines coming up and that's always A Lot to do, but I hope your's is more relaxing than mine!

I do definitely see it as a manipulation tactic, a lot of what Otto does is manipulation cuz he just appears to be a manipulative dude (honestly, no shade on him for that I appreciate it), but I do think it was something primarily driven by emotion. We don't know a whole lot about Otto as a person, his thoughts and feelings and emotions, but what we do know for certainty is that he dearly loves his wife and his children. The bit where Daemon brings up his wife is a clear example of this, because Otto in general is a pretty even keeled person (we later see him responding measuredly to Gwayne getting injured and being a reassuring figure for Alicent in that) but this one comment gets a rise out of him and he's clearly fighting the urge to absolutely deck Daemon. He, like Alicent, is very affected by this loss, and there can even be an insinuation that he never fully recovered from it, as he never remarried even though over twenty years passed and there was likely some expectation that such a high profile nobleman would remarry even though he already had sons.

When it comes to why he said that to Alicent, I see it as twofold. One, Otto and Alicent have this dynamic by the time this line is said that's almost that of a wife and husband than that of a father and daughter. I think it was @b-rainlet who pointed out that they're the ones who kinda slot into the role of "mom and dad" for Alicent's kids at times (when Criston's not fulfilling his "I'm not the stepdad I'm the dad who stepped up" obligations), and the way that they interact with each other in episode 7 and episode 9 almost reads as partners than as a man and his child. So when Alicent isn't reacting subserviently to him, as a Westerosi daughter should, but openly talking back to him and standing up for her kids, he likely does think a lot of his wife, of the role she played in his life when she was alive and likely any talking back she did regarding their own children. There's also the fact that Alicent might be very much like her mother, in both personality and looks, sometimes kids take a lot more after one parent than the other (case in point, I am much more like my dad in temperament and I'm a dead ringer for my paternal great aunt in looks and I clearly got nearly everything genetically from my dad's side of the family), and Alicent might be approaching the age her mother was when she died. And I think he remarked on it, almost in spite of himself, because of point two: he was feeling emotional.

Otto loved his wife. And we also know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Otto loves Alicent. He's hurt her, he's put her in bad situations and he hasn't always done right by her, but he loves her. He understands her emotional needs and her psychological issues like her anxiety and he does, in his own way, do his best to try and alleviate them (like that reassurance at the joust and honestly, that scene between him and Alicent in ep 2 always read more to me like Otto is just sad his daughter feels the need to self harm than anything else), and even beyond his ambition, a huge driving force for his wanting Aegon on the throne is because he is genuinely worried for Alicent's future. I don't remember what exactly the wording was, but Rhys said that part of the conversation Alicent and Otto have in episode 5 is motivated by the fact that Otto loves her and is scared for her future. Which makes sense, he and Alicent are close, and they're both clearly strongly affected by the death of his wife/her mom. And with all that, we need to remember that Otto's line to Alicent about her mother comes on the heels of Alicent pulling away from him, Alicent saying that their hearts were never one. Otto is a widower, and a father who is right now losing his daughter (due to the consequences of his own choices, yes, but that's still what's happening). And in that moment, I think he was just overcome with emotion, not just at how alike Alicent might be to her mother and what their relationship is, but also the fact that he feels he's lost them both.

(I know there's a more incestuous reading, given the shifting in the dynamics between him and Alicent and also that this show in general is open to a LOT of incestuous readings, but I have a mild headache right now and don't have the cognitive ability to go into that in too much detail other than to say that I see it and I do find it an interesting read.)

It likely does add some bite to Rhaenyra's whole "I swear to you on the memory of my mother" thing, but whereas Rhaenyra was out and out lying and using Alicent's feelings on dead parents as express manipulation to get an outcome she wants, Otto's just trying to control the situation and try to turn it around in his favor, which might be more forgivable in Alicent's head, especially since a lot more time has passed since her mother's passing at this point. And it's also possible that the situation itself will be forgivable because of following events. Alicent's about to go through a huge trauma, she's going to be physically attacked and threatened with further violence in her own room, she's going to watch a close companion (the bedmade Blood and Cheese strangled to make sure to tie up all loose ends) and her own grandson die in front of her eyes, and of course have to deal with the psychological ramifications of the way it happened and how it affected Helaena, as well as having to be a support system to Aegon and the other two kids as well (the book is explicit that Maelor was basically given over to Alicent's care entirely after that night because of Helaena's mental state). And when you go through something like, it doesn't matter how old you are, sometimes you just need your parent to be with you and support you and help you and comfort you.