#i think there was also foreshadowing by brenner when el was in nina

[starsarefire824]

Do you still believe in Byler endgame after David words?

Hey nonnie,

Yes! I'm still in the feeling that Byler will most likely happen. I'm only basing this on what I'm getting from the written story and the events of season 3 and 4. I don't tend to take anything actors say as far as story goes because it's literally part of their job to keep things under wraps.

But when it comes down to it, I'm here for the show's story and not just a ship. So what I'm truly looking forward to the most is finally getting a thorough exploration of Will's character and his connection the Henry and the Upside Down. (and maybe El too) I think that naturally this fact will make Mike a very large part of season four, whether they end up together or not. Will is in love with him, and therefore a big part of Will's life.

Beyond Will, I'm excited for El having more scenes with Lucas and her story revolving a little bit around saving Max. That would be really satisfying to me.

Ideally, I'd like byler to have to team up for something and healing their relationship. I'd like some of the vagueness around Mike's feelings made crystal clear and if it does end up being for Will, I'd like some really charged, tense scenes between them and possibly something around Mike's feelings being revealed in a climatic moment in one of the middle episodes. (Or possibly a part of the puzzle that Will is able to help El defeat Henry)

I haven't banked on byler being fully canon because I'm not a writer of the show so I'll never know. But I've been in a fandom before where it was said there was no romantic connotations or sexual tension to a particular pairings interactions that a lot people noticed right away. It was denied and talked around by actors, creators, and in the fandom spaces we were called insane.

And guess what happened?

In the end, we were right. In the most real way. So---I don't know.....I don't think my vibes are off on this. But I am excited to find out! ♥

[erikiara80]

Yep, I agree about Will only standing out in the hospital scene and the lab scenes in S2.

I was thinking, in all the other scenes, for most of the season, it’s like... Will is disappearing. I’m not sure if the whole birthday mystery means that people are actually forgetting his birthday, or if we are in a timeline when he was born in May. 

But birthday + Will almost being invisible is suspicious. Because someone already forgot Will’s birthday (I’m sure it was Lonnie)

Also, Henrysglock posted this. It’s from Brenner’s crossword in 4x01.

In S3, we see the poster of Sixteen Candles at Family Video. In that story people forgets the main character’s birthday. We don’t see the poster in S4, but we have Vickie who looks like that girl!

I’m also thinking about that video on the ST account where Will actually disappears from the photo, like Marty McFly. So yeah. 

Imo, Blending in = slowly disappearing

As for the hospital scene, I think it connects Will to Max’s situation, and it was foreshadowed before. We know that Will had Marty outfit in S1 and here we have Michael J Fox again. So I think this is about Max in S4 and Will in S5.

But I also have a crazy thought.

Will standing out at the hospital, Max in a coma. Freddy Krueger/Vecna’s claw behind Max AND in front of the poster...

All this makes me think about the coma theory. How both El and Henry, the two people with powers and so many parallels with Will, ended up in a coma after using their powers. And now Max, who’s been paralleled to Will, is in a coma too, for different reasons. 

Plus, Sixteen Candles reminds me of The Sleeping Beauty curse.

It’s during her 16th birthday that Aurora is tricked by the fairy and falls into a deep slumber. So, maybe something similar will happen to Will... Maybe not coma, but lots of visions and a journey in his memories and Henry's. His Nina Project moment.

Will blends in, no matter where he is.

Is he the love of Mike's life that Mike couldn't see right in front of him? Is he hiding from Vecna with every new outfit? Is he just so passive in his wants and desires that he literally doesn't stand out? Is his self doubt leading him to disappear a little bit?

Either way, it seems like his outfits, the set design, and the blocking lead to Will blending into the background in pretty much every single scene he's in.

Obviously it's a little hard to make the case when he's in the same outfit for 5 of the 8 episodes he's in, but let's take a closer look.

4x01, the only time he's wearing red, he's blends into the school doors when he has a freeze response to El's bullying.

4x02, Will blends in with background blues at the airport specifically when greeting Mike and specifically right as he makes eye contact with Mike, just a moment before their heads drop, completely synchronized.

4x02, Will is often standing in areas lit blue, with swaths of background actors wearing blue behind him.

4x03, Will wears gray as he unsuccessfully tries to get El back at the white-ish gray police station.

This is where is gets trickier: Will wears this outfit for the rest of the season.

4x03: Will blends in with the walls, lighting, and background objects in each room we see him in as he's wearing light brown, tan, and yellow.

4x05, while everyone else is popping either because of their bright white or bright colors against the yellow of the sand, Will blends in perfectly.

4x06, Will's shirt nearly perfectly matches the shades of yellow and blue in Suzie's bedroom. The patterns on Suzie's wall exacerbates this affect. Further, he's tucked into a dark corner of the room, making him nearly disappear in that top right shot above.

4x06, Will continues to blend with the yellows of the curtains and painting frame. He's blocked in front of the yellow foliage and brown bark of the trees in the below picture instead of in front of the green foliage Jonathan is in front of, where he would've popped more with the contesting colors and brightness.

4x08, Will blends with both the tan of the van and the sand outside.

4x08, Will continues to blend with the sand compared to others dressed in more contrasting clothes.

4x09, Will is situated in front of yellow walls several times, filmed from those angles instead of in front of more contrasting colors.

4x09, Will is in front of the yellow van (while both Mike and El have darker colors behind them, from the opened door and behind the van). Will stands in front of the brown door at the hospital (although I will say, Will stands out more at the hospital than anywhere else. Not too sure what to think of this). No contrasting background colors at the cabin or outside.

Has anyone else noticed this? Does anyone have thoughts about this choice throughout the season?

[doriandrifting]

Mike Talking in Code

Mike doesn't say what "that thing" is because he was planning on saying "that thing" to Will.*

Mike coded the first heart to heart and immediately used Will's advice with Will in the second heart to heart.

*Because he considered El's letter a breakup.

Analysis:

I don't think Mike is completely talking about El in these scenes. I think he is coding his feelings by using El's name again. He is thinking about the rain fight and the continuation of it at Rink o Mania. He's testing the waters with Will in the first heart to heart and it leads directly into their second one. This is why he shuts the door for privacy and opens the second heart to heart by thanking Will for making him realize he was being self-pitying. It wasn't just Will calling him out at Rink o Mania—It was Will's advice in their previous scene that gave Mike the courage to be more honest and stop feeling so sorry for himself.

Let's also think about the fact that Mike does not believe he’s going to see El anytime soon. He’s just been told it could be months, and after the last letter she sent him, he believes they are broken up. She ends the letter with “From, El” after having told Mike that ending a letter like that means you don’t love someone. Mike quite literally agrees when Will says that staring at the letter won’t change anything. Mike knows it’s over. Will does not have the context of Mike and El's argument to understand that Mike is thinking this, but it's interesting because they give Will a similar dismissive attitude regarding the letter that mimics his attitude when El broke up with Mike in S3 ("I thought it was already over.") I think this was on purpose, to contrast Mike having been "broken up with" but unlike last season, he doesn't try to fight Will on it (There's no, "It's not over. It's just a break.")

Mike's also been told by the government woman that him and Will are going to be staying together under house arrest with no contact to the outside world for months. Will has just reminded Mike of this as the scene opens. Mike is looking for reassurance that Will still wants him there and wherever he goes—that they can come back from their fight—but he codes it. After the first heart to heart, this hypothetical becomes a reality as Mike believes him and Will are going to Hawkins to fight a battle without El. And, as the agent informed him, his "friend" could be in danger because of what is going on. Therefore, none of what he says is actually about El.

Other things to note:

At the beginning of the first heart to heart scene Mike is hiding himself behind his hand from Will. Above his head is a picture of what looks like a swingset (reference to their first meeting). The next picture is of a rainbow over a train (In the rainbow room, Brenner tells El the story of Nina, and how her lover will not return, and she needs to leave the station. Mike and Will are likely leaving Hawkins together at the end of the show—boarding the metaphorical train together). The last image is an allusion to Lover's Lake (foreshadowing their direction in S5). Will is also initially standing next to a poster of fireworks (a reference to S3's 4th of July theme).

In the first heart to heart scene, Mike is worried about whether "El" still wants him around. There's a lot of reasons for this. For starters, Will didn't call Mike the "year" they were apart. And in the morning after their S4 fight, Jonathan asks if Mike and Will want to go to the movies (like they did in S3). If you watch closely, you'll see that Mike freezes in that scene, waiting for Will's answer. Will immediately rejects the idea of them going to the movies together. Jonathan calls them mopey--the same language Mike used against Will at Rink o Mania. Mike storms off to finally talk to El, because he feels rejected by Will.

The "stupid" reference comes up in both heart to heart scenes in S4. Mike and Will likely have had silly fights in the past, but in S3 they had a "stupid" fight. Will called El a "stupid girl". Mike said, "El's not stupid." Which is true, because "only love makes you that crazy and that stupid.”Will was the one who believed he was "stupid" after their fight in S3.

In the second scene, Mike admits that he's been a "self-pitying idiot." Unbeknownst to Will, Mike projected in the rain fight about not liking girls/believing dating girls is just a part of growing up. He also projected his feelings again at the roller rink with his interpretation of "And us?" and him getting defensive with "We're friends. We're friends." Mike is feeling like an idiot—He's felt "stupid" since their fight too. So if Will is aware...

All of this points to the fact that Mike is also aware of his own feelings. The first heart to heart gives him enough hope that he wants to say "that thing"—the same way the second heart to heart gives Will enough hope to grab the painting (even if he wasn't initially planning a confession with it). But Mike is consistently interrupted by someone or something—Jonathan, the shoot out, and Argyle—when he's on the verge of breaking the code.

[sevensided]

so with so much confusion what are your predictions for v2?

Oh, excellent question! Thanks for this! I have a few ideas...

I feel like a lot of what I suspected during the hiatus came to fruition, so I'll admit I'm still crowing about a lot of my predictions, especially the Peter/001/Vecna/Creel son twist, which I guessed a while ago. As for new predictions:

I do think 'Vecna's Upside Down' is actually a 'mindscape' e.g. we're in his mind, which is one layer of the broader Upside Down. That there are multiple layers to the UD makes complete sense and explains a lot of the distinctions in how different characters experience the UD. Inception was also listed as inspiration for S04, and that has the whole 'dream layer' thing, so I think that tracks.

I think Joyce, Hopper, and Murray will escape Russia via the UD tunnels back to Hawkins. It's established that the only way they can get out is to 'go under', so that works. I'm also wondering if the Demogorgon Hopper sort of defeated ends up hunting them and following them into the tunnels, where Dimitri sacrifices himself to save the rest of them. Hopper will get an emotional moment and it'll be a good way to galvanise him into action. I haven't seen anyone else suggest that Dimitri is the one to die, so there you go.

As for the teenagers, I think that Robin will get sort of Vecna'd in that she'll get wrapped up in the freaky vines and Nancy and Steve will save her, thus rectifying Nancy's lack of action in S01 when Barb was taken. Rather than Steve and Nancy falling back into each other's arms, I actually think this will act as closure as Barb's death and the events in S01 have not yet been addressed, and it's remained unresolved between them for three years. This acts as the perfect segue for them to become friends, or at least to heal that relationship and move on. Plus, they save Robin, so.

Eddie causing a distraction with the guitar - something a lot of people have discussed and something I'm on board with. Love the idea of there being a storm of demo-bats around him, very Transylvania: The Crimson Crown, I love it.

Will being Vecna'd - not much to say here other than what has already been said. I think it was foreshadowed since S03 that Will would become a focal point again, despite the current discourse that he's been 'forgotten'. I don't think he's been forgotten at all. I believe it's deliberate that he's been continually isolated (visually, from a cinematic point of view; and narratively). Part of that is due to his sexuality, yes, but there's something bigger at play. I've spoken before about how it's become a pattern that the Party focus on Will only when he's in danger/capable of signaling the danger, and there's no reason that theme wouldn't continue in the second half of this season.

As for El... I do wonder if she'll have to decide between killing Brenner or letting him live. This brings us full circle in her Kali/Peter 'am I a monster' morality conundrum, but there's also some validity here, because now she knows - with the value of being older - just how much Brenner has manipulated and controlled her. He's quite literally the gatekeeper of her memories (see: Nina machine). So for her to kill him would be cathartic. Perhaps it's not even her killing him, but making the decision to save him or let him die. Just a thought, but I don't think Brenner is making it out alive.

Edit: Oh, and I should say that in the context of Mike and Will, I definitely think they're setting it up for S05!

Tl;dr Brenner and Dimitri are dying, bet you anything.

[kaypeace21]

DID theory part 3: St novels/comics/spotify list analyses

*read part 2  of DID theory-first! You’ll be lost otherwise, seriously XD. First, I’ll say -I find the ST comics/ books as canon as the st movie inspirations . I don’t consider the books/comics ‘literal canon’ (cause they contradict the show ( like Max and billy meeting a year before s2  in runaway max - but meeting as little kids in s3,  or El’s age being wrong in suspicious minds, in the d&D comic Will’s friends instead of him /Jonathan building castle byers, etc) . 

So I think we shouldn’t take it  literally - but more like the st movie lists - filled with foreshadowing/symbolism and other eastereggs (That the Duffers may have told them to add). So here’s some more (possible) alter / DID hints...

‘Suspicious minds’ novel

- Brenner  equates k*lling rabbits to h*rting kids. And he’ll hurt (kid) Kali (the bunny in the analogy) if Terry tries running away from him . I wonder if Lonnie used a similar threat against jonathan? Jon could be giving only a partial truth to why he cried for a week (about the bunny story)?

-Kali “hops” like a bunny then talks about tigers obsessively (linking her to rabbits/tigers similar to the other alters/Will/Lonnie). Terry also imagines tigers and kali says to Alice they can all be tigers together.

- one of the only male psychic experiments (who can see the future) is gay

- Terry is into lord of the rings, like Will. Has her and her boyfriend dress as sam & frodo (m/m ship). Terry calls her and her friends “the fellowship”.

-when Terry/Alice were injected with d**gs -they hallucinated rainbows.yikes.

- Alice (like Lonnie) is a car mechanic. She can see the future like Will the wise and says “monsters of course my mind has them as long as they stayed in there, everything would be alright? Wouldn’t it?” (in her visions she saw the demogorgan).

 (completed) graphic ST novels (by Jody Hozer) so far  (+ other st comics).

*Jody Hozer writes all the graphic novels (every novel is 4 chapters each) - the will byers comic, number 6 comic , into the fire comic, and at the moment she’s writing the d&d series and the summer camp series (which isn’t done yet). Then there’s the occasional 1 chapter st comics not written by her.

- Number 6 has (the ability to foresee the future like Will the wise/Alice) and has an ab*sive dad. 

When having a nightmare of the demogorgan ...she says as she wakes up “screw you dad” (another hint the demogrgan -aka in d&d means ‘deep father’ ...is Lonnie).

- when number 6 and others run they say they’re’ “rabbiting”(which yes technically makes sense but I found such an uncommon phrase odd.)

- The (summer camp and d&d graphic novels aren’t completed yet) but they establish d&d creatures are based off  real life people the boys don’t like in real life. Or that d&d is used as an outlet to explain true events from their pasts -but they just give the true stories a d&d fantasy slant.

- Which brings me to the halloween oneshot(not by Hozer),taking place before s1. Will tells a scary story told to him by Jonathan, and originally told to him by Lonnie. Says the boys have to keep it a secret cause it was something he was never supposed to tell to anyone. Mike says he has to finish the story he started. It’s about a “ch*lld-eater” monster first attacking a boy near the quarry (like where Will was found) and  attacking kids in a library (where Will was also found in s1).When the child sees the sheriff she bangs on the library door begging for help-he ignores her , walks away, and tells the other cops to never speak of what they saw as she screams for help. Because the previous sheriff was in kahoots with the monster. It def had some ... uh questionable imagery too 0_0

The vine in the mouth is also like the one in Will’s mouth (when Joyce found him in the library).And of course Dustin asks whether or not something like that could be covered up.

- In the “bully  comic” (about troy) also not by Jody. We focus on Troy and his ab*sive dad (who encourages him to fight/ditch his best friend). The dad has a drinking problem (gets fired), calls Troy a “mess” , pushes him, and constantly encourages Troy to be vi*lent/macho. He pretty much tries sabotaging the relationship Troy has with his friend (which I could see Lonnie doing in the future with byler).The dad/troy is framed similarly to when Billy gives Max a ride home-  after both ab*sers give bad advice saying not to hang out with their friend (after witnessing them fight in the school parking lot). Dad also laughs about almost k*lling a squirrel (a trait we see troy mimic)- and we see El feel guilty about k*lling a squirrel in s2. At the end of the comic- Troy (like Will) after making up with his bff james- moves leaving his best friend behind.

-  (into the fire) Twins: (one was normal with no powers living in the real world and the twin with fire powers is trapped in a dark sunless “cold” world styled like a psych facility/medieval fantasy) . pics in link.She hated her reflection cause it reminded her of being betrayed by her normal non powered twin who left her behind in the ‘cold’ place. She’d call herself a ‘hunter’ who would defend herself and attack others to never be hurt again. Her powers being unleashed were described like opening “a door.” And she loves her twin deep down and just wants friends . And fire twin goes to the “other side” to reunite with her reflection and find happiness in the real world. *also there’s sunflower/bunny symbols which she lights on fire-which can relate back to Will/Terry/Lonnie etc. The twins = Will & Will the wise (mf)

Mirrors also connect to Will and Will the wise via the canon spotify playlists too.

Will playlist (song: mirror in the bathroom)-Mirror in the bathroom Please talk free.The door is locked -Just you and me.Mirror in the bathroom recompense for all my crimes of self defense.Cures you whisper make no sense!Drift gently into Mental illness.

Demogorgan playlist ( from perspective of Will the wise aka the mf) (song: are you dead yet? )-”polluted soul through a mirror I behold.Throw a punch, shards bleed on the floor. tearing me apart. but I don't care anymore.Should I regret or ask myself are you dead yet?Wake up, don't cry. Regenerate to deny the truth. The fiction you live in blindfolds your eyes. Disclosure, self loathing, this time you've gone too far.Or could it be, my nemesis, that you are me?

(*st ‘into the fire’ comic. the fire powered twin’s thoughts echo the song)

*I think this foreshadows the later plot points of mf (will the wise ) and Will interacting via mirrors. The fire-wielding twin and the non powered twin had a lot of mirror imagery. Including the fire powered twin (Who denies reality/and imagines herself in a fantasy world) punching her reflection because it reminds her of her non-powered twin. Here’s some cover art from the novels showing how much they emphasize mirrors.

*And in s4 movies Black swan - “the black and white swan twins (two halves of the same person-Nina)” had creepy mirror imagery. In long kiss goodnight the women with DID talks to her “ (supposed)dark 1/2″  via a mirror (in a dream).  in ‘the visit’ the teen girl who’s dad abandoned her when young-  refuses to look in the mirror (and it’s never explained why she hates her reflection). So yes I think we’ll see this in s4 or 5. We already see the mf take on the appearance of Billy when talking to him.

- Will in “zombie boy” comic is afraid he’s a monster.

also lets appreciate the lil byler moment of Mike and Will being the only zombies and mike comforting him. honestly , though, the characters were pretty out of character for most of this 1 ch comic (until the end) tbh.

- in the “d&d comic” mf is  (possibly) described as a “protector” (aka like how i said the mf is probably a perpetrator alter- which are misguided protectors).

*update now that it’s finished... hinting Will created everything subconsciously.

‘Runaway Max’ novel (before s3)

(I didn’t get time to read this book unlike ‘suspicious minds’ -so can’t show screen shots of everything others talked about. May read it eventually)

-Max compares Billy  to ‘her monster’ and a ‘shadow’ that will attack anyone that comes close (mf parallel).

- Dart k*lled a cat,  El’s papa tried to force her to k*ll a cat. And Billy when seeing a d*ad cat lights it on fire for a “viking funeral”. A connection to WW (who has fire powers) and El & dart.

-Max and Billy both are into cars and bond over fixing them (similar to Lonnie’s interest in fixing up cars). And since Lonnie tried to brag to Jonathan about fixing a car up and Will is into tech it wouldn’t be a stretch that Lonnie and Will were into fixing cars together (like Max/billy who would hang out at a autoshop in Cali) .  Similar to Will ,max says hanging with Billy wasn’t always so bad- which made things more confusing to her.

- Max compares Billy being beat up by Neil: to ‘punching a pocket of a baseball glove’. This is interesting since this book was pre-s3 which was when they established the connection of billy and his dad to baseball (similar to s1 saying  Lonnie taught Will baseball).

-Billy’s friend is a nice ‘music snob’ . He tries distracting Max with music while Billy is burning the cat. Which reminds me of Jonathan trying to distract Will from their parents fighting in the next room-with music

- Max’s bio dad is a criminal who takes her to shady bars, and Max fears he’d ‘get bored of her’. Max also ran away from her mom to her dad’s 2x.Which reminds me of Jonathan thinking Will ran to Lonnie’s in s1.

-Max mentions how Billy misses his friends after moving out of Cali. And he starts acting even worse-after the move. Which will probably be the case for Will (at least a bit) when moving to California.

-Billy tells Max Neil isn’t his ‘real dad’ either because Neil can’t be a father to anyone.

-Billy also tells Max who (at the time ) is 12 years old not to act “easy” and breaks her best friend’s (Nate’s) arm over  someone joking he was Max’s boyfriend and also cause Nate tried to get in between Billy bullying Max. Eventually all her Cali friends ditch her cause they’re afraid of Billy.And Ugh- why could I see Lonnie doing something like this in the future with Will/his new friends. 

- Creepily Max says Billy doesn’t fool around with her like other girls not because of her age or being family. But cause she wasn’t ‘attractive’. This whole excerpt gave me the heeby jeebies,on so many levels, honestly.  Almost like he’s jealous- and controlling her cause he doesn’t want Max to have any love interests. Maybe i’m just missing the context? But ugh... excerpt:

Will byers secret Files

-Hopper gets scared by a pumpkin-scarecrow. And in Will’s canon journal when talking about the mindflayer and his nightmares draws the same scare-crow , Hopper saw. There’s also a lot of s4-5 foreshadowing in the book... but that’s a post for another day.

Darkness on the edge of town (Hopper novel)

*didn’t get time to read this (except the preview)

 I think it’s more foreshadowing for future seasons though- cult/supposed ritual k*llings, people being wrongly blamed for those crimes-like the hellfire club , most likely.  (similar to the guy number 3 in the number 6 comic)  saint john in the novel also has the same brain control powers as 3- similar to the mf. .” When a blackout plunges the boroughs into chaos, Hopper must escape the the mobs in the streets to make sure his family is safe and stop Saint John from fulfilling his prophecy.” I already talked about here- how the next few seasons would start having more religious symbolism/a future apocalypse (based on what we’ve seen in the show/s4 movies). Although, i think there’s quite a few differences between (the novel’s) saint john and Will the wise. Hopper is also a star wars nerd like the boys (alter hint)

Canon spotify songs (posted after s2/before s3) hinting at DID/ alter /lonnie stuff-

Will  and Will the wise (aka the mf) being an alter

*Used Will and the demogorgan playlist (which i think has perspectives of Will the wise aka the mf, demogorgan, and Lonnie).

Besides the mirror songs previously mentioned...

Will (cold inside)-Doctor the problem's in my chest.My heart feels cold as ice but it's anybody's guess?Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mind. Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mindWell it's cold, cold, cold, cold inside. Darker in the day than the dead of night Cold, cold, cold, cold inside...Counselor give me some advice Tell me how hard will I fall if I live a double life?

El (ghost)-your ghost, the ghost of you.It keeps me awake.My friends had you figured out.Yeah they saw what's inside of you. You tried hiding another you.But your evil was coming through... living in the shade Your cold heart makes my spirit shake.

El (monster Lead me home)-I don't know what, what I was afraid of, I was afraid oooof...Monster take me somewhere...We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.Where there is no place to hide.Stranger on the other side We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.

 The’ innerworld’/  other hints Max, El, Hopper, and Billy are alters of Will’s

Max (Logical song)-I know it sounds absurd. Please tell me who I am, who I am, who I am, who I am?

EL(Buzzcut season)-I remember when your head caught flame It kissed your scalp and caressed your brain ...nothing's wrong when nothing's true. I live in a hologram with you Where all the things that we do for fun . Play along (make-believe it's hyper real) But I live in a hologram with you.

Billy (broken bones)-Broken bones.Stay alone. If I see only what I believe -reality's bound by what I conceive

Max (Why can’t i touch it)-Well, it seems so real.I can see it.And it seems so real-I can feel it.And it seems so real-I can taste it.And it seems so real-I can hear it.So why can't I touch it?

Hopper (breakers)-Just to keep me from losing my mind .It's so easy to drown in the dream.Oh, and everything is not what it seems This life is but a dream.Shatter illusions that hold your spirit down ...From the inside, so it seems.Oh, I'm telling you it's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a It's all a dream.”

Max (comfortably numb)-When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye.I turned to look but it was gone.I cannot put my finger on it now.The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably numb.

Max (Kids aren’t alright)-Still it's hard Hard to see Fragile lives, shattered dreams...What the hell is going on? The cruelest dream, reality.

El(team)-Livin' in ruins of a palace within my dreams. And you know we're on each other's team

Hopper (denial twist) ( just change ‘she’ to ‘he��)-Just because she makes you feel wrong she don't mean to be mean or hurt you on purpose, boy!Take a tip and do yourself a little service...by playing a different role Ya, by playing a different role, oh.The boat ya you know she's rockin' it.And the truth well ya know there's no stoppin' it.So what, somebody left you in a rut and wants to be the one who's in control.But the feeling that you're under can really make you wonder.How the hell she can be so cold?So now you're mad, denying the truth.And it's getting in the wisdom in the back of your tooth

El (the story)-You see the smile that's on my mouth.It's hiding the words that don't come out.And all of my friends who think that I'm blessed.They don't know my head is a mess.No they don't know who I really am.And they don't know what I've been through

El (hero) ( pretty much alludes to El being a construct of Will’s mind similar to his juju zombies in the d&d story he wrote )-Who knows what you'll find when you look inside (billy’s mind)?Haunted beach (billy flashback), roll the dice.The zombies in the corner aren't amused (d&d ref).Play the part of the blushing bride...Out of view, cloaked by night...My spirit dims, but I feel the force"No longer in my hands,"  (loses powers) .I say to you .I could've been a hero, I could've been a zero.Could've been all these thingsI could've been nothing, I could've had something.Could've been all these things.And if I am unable, tell him that I'll try but underneath the table will spin the wheel and hope for gold. Oh, and where it stops, nobody knows.

Max (it’s real)-I don't know who's behind the wheel.Sometimes I feel like I don't know The deal.But when I tell you how I feel-Believe me when I say It's real.I skated on a frozen Sea.It's real as far as I Can see?

Max (Halloween)-Because your role is planned for you there's nothing you can do.

El (White rabbit... alice and wonderland/lonnie ref)-And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall...When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

demogrogan(Dimensions of horror)-Gaze upon the ancient face you dread (lonnie)... Passing through the doors, into Dimensions Of Horror. Haunting visions from the past, rise once more.Realms of darkness, terror, death and gore.Scream in fear, your sanity is lost

demogorgan (SCHORCHED)-Terrorizing madness. Vivid dreams. internal. Hallucinating the unknown. Abstract entities prey.Through superhuman abilities.Fragments of memory erased.

demogrogan (Calling from a dream)-the shadow king...seven spirits (7 ref) Swarming around his head.Close your eyes.Listen to my call. Our bond will bring us together again.I will wait for you. For our hearts still beat as one.Listen to my calling from a dream. (integration?)

 Maybe a coincidence or a hint at Will having both male &female alters?Billy (dude looks like a lady)- What a funky lady...Oh, he was a lady.Dude looks like a lady. Hopper (turn the page)-All the same old cliches,"Is that a woman or a man?" Max ( rebel rebel) (this was on her her pre s3 spotify list + post s3 “wrapped list”)- you got your mother in a whirl, doesn’t know if you’re a boy or girl? 

 SHIT DAD/ AB*SIVE FAMILY

*trigger w*rning ahead for dark themes like s**ual ab*se

demogorgan (my children)My children I never loved them.Why feel that way when their existence is my business?My children...feral vessals of my selfinterest...So don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.Don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.My children they're right behind you My children they're gonna beat you.My children if you let them Oh, oh, my children.

demogorgan (black dahlia-window):  I’m not quoting the lyrics you can just look it up.  it’s messed up.Based on the 1st person pov of Gilles de Rais -k**ler and p*d*rest who also kidnapped a cleric.

Will (creature comfort)-Some boys hate themselves.Spend their lives resenting their fathers... hate their bodies .Stand in the mirror (another mirror ref) and wait for the feedback.Some boys get too much, too much love, too much touch.

Jonathan’s Playlist- We’re happy family: “Eating refried beans (poverty). Gulpin’ down Thorazines (pills for a mood disorder). We ain’t got no friends (s2 ref). Our troubles never end. Daddy likes men. Daddy’s telling LIES.”

Jonathan’s playlist-Enter sandman: “Don’t forget my son. Sleep with one eye open. Gripping your pillow tight, Exit light, Enter night. Take my hand, we’re off to never-never land. Something’s wrong, shut the light, heavy thoughts tonight. Dreams of LIARS and of things that will bite, yeah. Hush little baby don’t say a word, and never mind that noise you heard. It’s just the beasts under your bed, in your closet in your head.”

Jonathan (The killing moon-guy sings this)-So soon you'll take me up in your arms. Too late to beg you or cancel it. Against your will!He will wait until you give yourself to him...In starlit nights I saw you.So cruelly you kissed me... unwillingly mine.

jonathan (haunted)-You and I both know that the house is haunted And you and I both know that the ghost is me. You used to catch me in your bed-sheets just a-rattling your chains.Well back then , it didn't seem so strange...In the midnight hour..I was busy trying to charm that snake. When the sun came up we had no place to hide...You and I both know that the house is haunted  yeah you and I both know that the ghost is YOU! You used to walk around screaming, all slamming all 'dem doors Well I'm all grown up now and I don't scare easy no more But you and I both know.

Hopper (Confession)-Now I'm on the low Confession, to a virgin ghost Admission, force you know.

hopper (Tomorrow ) Yeah, and back when s*x and amph*tamines were the staples of our childhood physique.

Max (Last caress)-I got something to say.I k**led your baby today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as it's de*d.Well I got something to say.I r*ped your mother today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as she spread. (Lonnie pov? Neil?messed up song to be on Max’s list)

hopper House of the rising sun- And my father was a gamblin' man Way down in New Orleans... And the only time he's satisfied Is when he's on a drunk

Max Poor relations-An attitude, no patience, he's paper thin.Talking over everything you have to say...Don't correct the things he said, what's the use?Can't handle violence.Can't handle violence.Learning to love the abuse you can't live without.Your familiar oppression, your daily injustice...That loser man that belongs to you, he's ruling you.

el (sweet dreams are made of this)- Some of them want to use you ...Some of them want to ab*se you.Sweet dreams are made of this...Hold your head up.Keep your head up, movin' on.

Max (Alternative ulster)-They say they're a part of you.And that's not true, you know.They say they've got control of you.And that's a lie, you know.They say you will never Be free, free, free

max In bloom-”Sometimes at night I let it get to me.And last night it had me down and feeling NUMB...And thinking back upon those days Way way back when I was young.I was such a little shit.Cos I was always on the run.Well you know just what they say-Just like father then like son.Don't delude me with your sympathy.Cos I can do this on my own.And this will be the last time-That I break down and wanna crawl to bed. “(since Billy has a playlist I found this song choice being on hers instead of his interesting- in fact almost all of Max’s songs are from the 1st person perspective of a boy unlike the other gals.)

Max (comfortably numb)-The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably NUMB.

hopper (numb)-Honey, here I go again Down that crooked road of sin.My momma locked me out again And hung me high to rust under the rain I am NUMB( 8x)....Little bluebird at my window Sing a pretty song for me Don't you know that you can fly, fly, fly away Don't you know that you can leave I am numb.

other psych songs

Hopper (life of sin)-Every morning when I rise I look in the mirror (another mirror ref) and despise the sight of everything and all that I've become. The level of my medicating some might find intimidating But that's alright cause' it don't bother me none.

 Max (Moon over marin)- “Dive in my scalding wooden tub (connects to mf/el)...There, wasn't that a nice visit?Don't forget, a psychiatrist is on duty twenty-four hours a day in the blue room...Drink plenty of water when you take these.Now you can relax.” ( I wonder if stranger writers saying to “drink plenty of water” is secretly a line said by a psych person in s4?)

Max (Feeling ok)-My doctor says that I should take it -At least I won't have to keep faking.I know, someday I'll find it-Where I, I least expect it.Today I know I feel ok.

Max ( Going gets tough)-.No home since the fire.Me and the ash can't settle down...So I sink another round-Placebo for pain.And there's no one for to blame . I refuse to accept-That my work is all in vain...Still always remembering .When the going gets tough .That the labor of our love-Will reward us soon enough.

 Max (Comfortably numb)-Hello? (Hello? Hello? Hello?)Is there anybody in there?Just nod if you can hear me.Is there anyone home?Come on now-I hear you're feeling down.Well I can ease your pain .Get you on your feet again.Relax // Now I've got that feeling once again.I can't explain . you would not understand.This is not how I am. I have become comfortably numb.I have become comfortably numb //Okay (okay, okay, okay)Just a little pinprick.There'll be no more, ah .But you may feel a little sick.Can you stand up?I do believe it's working, good.That'll keep you going through the show.Come on it's time to go// Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.

Explanations of Why the mf  (WIll the wise)behaves the way he does

demogorgan (ww) (Cowards starved)- friends think of me as a priest.I had to show them that the weakest hands Can still make impressive fires. (aka MF = will the wise)

demogorgan (ww) (Unmerciful):I will be reborn...Tranquil demeanor.Now devoured.Surfacing malice...I can't reconcile the torment others bring unto me.I will not take any reproach.Turning the other cheek.Relentless hatred consumes.Control released.Absolved of all compassion.I am free .Look into my hate filled eyes and tell me What do you see?Surging aura of my rage Paralyzing you in fear.

Demogorgan (ww) (bodies-Beaten why for (why for)?Can't take much more.(Here we go, here we go, here we go).One, nothing wrong with me,Two, nothing wrong with me.Three, nothing wrong with me.Four, nothing wrong with me.One, something's got to give.Two, something's got to give.Three, something's got to give now...You're all by yourself but you're not alone...Driven by hate consumed by fear.

demogrgan (ww)-Orbs used as transmitters carry electromagnetic beams from above (affecting magnetic fields in the show).Silence, manipulated, tortured ...How immune is your system of suffering?Its in the blood of suffering (familial ref).Its in the blood.

 Demogrgan (Monster)-I shoot the lights out..Whoa, just another lonely night...None of who you get it, ain't nobody cold as this.A zombie (will ref) with no conscience .Everybody knows I'm a motherfucking monster. Everybody wanna know what my Achilles' heel is? Love I don't get enough of it.

[doriandrifting]

The Nina Project—“Americantendo is America’s answer to Nintendo.”

AKA Mike’s response to Will’s confession about wanting to play Nintendo for the rest of their lives...They've told us “the secret location”.

I realized that Hopper and Joyce’s plot contains a lot of metaphors and foreshadowing for Byler. Joyce receives a coded message from Hopper disguised as a message "from Enzo". "Who sent this? A friend?" Murrary asks. (It parallels Will giving Mike a coded painting from someone else and Mike saying that they're "friends.") Every time Dmitri hears from Joyce, he says that he "has word from America."

Mike, as the recipient of a coded painting, is "America".

Erica tells us something about Mike and Will this season.

Before Erica answers the door for Jason, she’s painting a model dragon scene, and its foreshadowing Will's painting. Of course, it's interrupted and in hindsight, we can see that the scene is a joke about that.

She's been covering for two days.

And looky there, we're missing two days of time after Mike's love confession that was built off of Will calling him “the heart" in reference to the painting he lied about. We know virtually nothing about the drive back to Hawkins, besides the fact that El has not talked to Will and only talked to Mike a little.

It costs 10 bucks per day. Mike and Will are two 10s according to their shoes at Rink o Mania.

“Another week” has two interpretations—either because Mike/Will spent the week of Spring Break hiding the truth (Mike about loving El and his sexuality and Will about the painting and his feelings), the jig is up for someone at the beginning of S5, or we're gonna spend one more week with them still hiding the truth, and the response to “Nintendo Forever” will come at the end of that.

Erica also gives us our Nintendo reference. She wants it with Duck Hunt.

"Duck Hunt is a shooter game in which the objective is to shoot moving targets on the screen in mid-flight. It was released as an arcade game in the Nintendo VS. series in April 1984 and was later included in the PlayChoice-10 arcade console. The console supports two light guns, allowing two players at once."

Okay, so whatever happens to them, it's going to happen at the same time..I’m pretty sure this is a reference to them “finding the light” to fight Vecna (and maybe his cult 🤨).

Now, let's jump ahead a little to the story of "Nina, or Madly in Love" an alternative version of the one referenced by Dr. Brenner at the Nina Project, because the music they play is actually from the opera version.

"As the opera opens, Nina, the Count’s daughter, has gone mad due to a broken heart. We learn that she was to marry Lindoro, with her father’s approval, but on their wedding day a richer and more powerful suitor turned up, and the her father broke his word. Lindoro challenged his rival to a duel, and was killed.

Nina goes to the crossroads at the same hour every day to wait for her lover. The villagers come to comfort her, and sing her favourite song. Nina sings in anticipation of meeting Lindoro, but when he fails to appear, Nina leaves flowers at the waiting place and returns to the village.

The Count's valet appears with good news: it turns out Lindoro is still alive. Giorgio tells the Count that Lindor is at the castle gates hoping to see his darling. The Count greets Lindoro with tears of joy. Lindoro tells him that he was seriously wounded and nursed back to health by a friend. He has stayed away until now, believing Nina married his rival. He is aghast to hear that his beloved has lost her mind.

The lovers are reunited, and Nina is restored to sanity."

This parallels a lot of Mike's experience in S1. Believing Will to be dead, but him being found at the crossroads of the gates (the library). Mike finding a "more powerful suitor" while Will was gone. Mike regretting that day on the hill with all the flowers. El finding Will at Castle Byers. "Lost her mind" = Love making Mike crazy. Argyle also asks Mike what makes him think Nina is a small woman, which is a joke because Mike's favorite song is "Smalltown Boy" on his spotify playlist. This could be another point to the theory about him getting Vecna'd since it might require the group on the hill with the flowers to sing his favorite song. Argyle also says, “It would take a big tree to hide a small woman….”

Since the Nina Project is about recovering a memory, Mike is going to unrepress his memories of the day he thought Will died--likely including that unreleased bike scene of Mike crying. Mike and Will are going to be lovers reuniting at Castle Byers together, either in a shared memory if they're being Vecna'd, or later in the Upside Down after fighting him. There, Mike is going to give us "America’s answer to Nintendo.”

And what do you know--an American flag.

All “friends” welcome.