#i really did find his storyline/possible outcomes so interesting despite the fact that he’s kind of a massive asshole

[extantodyssey]

my black shroud, i never trust my feelings

i waited for the remedy

-

he might be “known for his unpleasant manner” but he is also everything to me

[ruby-whistler]

I recently took your latest survey and I was having some thoughts like I tend to do and thought I would try to understand your POV better and give some insight into mine. I wouldn’t consider myself a “apologist” for any character and actually really hate how the term is used, but in general I disagree with the main opinion I’ve seen on your blog which is that Dream should get a redemption arc. However, my reasoning isn’t one that I see you commonly argue against. (Being that dream shouldn’t get a redemption arc because he’s done bad things.) You always ask some interesting questions, I enjoy taking your surveys, I’ve done all the ones I’ve seen on my dash. So I’d like to in turn ask for your opinion on some things and see your opinion on my POV, if that is ok with you. I just find it interesting to discuss.

the view I see a lot of Dream apologist have is that everyone should have the opportunity for a good ending, which is true.

But I feel like it kind of misses the point of well, we are discussing characters, not real people. Now of course, what we say and write about characters can still have an impact, but I feel like sometimes this fandom in particular goes too far down the route of seeing these characters as people. To the point where anything said about the character is seen as proof of that persons morals, and not something said about a story.

For example, going back to the point about how everyone should have the opportunity to heal, I think that is true. But the fact of the matter is, not everyone will. It’s not realistic. So it makes sense that in stories, not ever y antagonist will have a redemption. I think there’s a huge difference between saying you don’t want a character to heal in a story, and saying you don’t want someone to in real life. For me it completely depends on how well it would work narratively in the story, not how much I think the particular character deserves it.

There’s a reason why the whole “power of friendship” trope is often mocked. It’s because it’s anticlimactic. It takes away all the stakes, leaving you with a rather stale, and hard-to-believe ending. People who have had a considerable downward spiral often can’t be completely derailed by a simple “no, this isn’t right” or a brief act of kindness. To better explain this I think it would help to take a step back from the story and characters we are attached to and just take a look at different stories that are pretty well known. Just to kind of put what I’m trying to say into perspective better.

I’ll take Marvels Infinity war/endgame as a example here because I think a lot of parallels can be drawn from Thanos to c!dream. (And I used to be really into marvel.) What with the whole “greater good” “one big happy family” thing they want to achieve through harm, murder, and total control. Also the disc war finale was literally pulled from endgame lol. With both characters we can see they have at the very least a not terrible motive. If you look closely enough it’s possible to sympathize with them. Less so for me with c!dream simply because we haven’t gotten a real solid backstory or reasoning from him, besides pieced together fanon that we have no real way of determining the accuracy of yet. But I get that some people do really like the character. But keeping along those lines of comparing the two, they’ve both done a ton a very terrible things, and don’t seem to feel any regret for them. (Actually, scratch that, there are scenes that imply thanos at least did feel somewhat bad about what he was doing, another reason that he’s more sympathetic for me. Of course you could claim that c!dream is less emotional or just doesn’t show it, which could be true, but there’s also the claim that he just doesn’t care, which could also very well be true. Again, we sadly don’t have too much insight to his character, which is a shame in my opinion. I’d like the see more of the writers intent.)

So the reason for my comparison is to ask this question, taking away all bias. do you think that giving thanos a redemption arc would of been the right way to take the story. Again, I think both their arcs are easily comparable, seeing as the dsmp pretty much took direct inspiration from those movies in the latter part of season 2. This might be a bit harder to answer if you haven’t seen it but you could easily look up a summary if you wanted to, or just take my word for it that they are pretty similar lol.

Becuase, if the answer is no, then I’m not sure how much some of the points you’ve made on this blog hold up. Besides being based off your liking of the character, which is valid. (there’s a reason why fanfic and fanart exists) but that doesn’t mean that such a ending would be good for a story. Again, I can understand why you would want a redemption for c!dream, just like I want my favorite characters to have a happy ending, but that doesn’t mean I actually want it to happen. Above all else I want a good story.

Just to clarify, I’m not asking if you think these characters deserve redemption. I’m asking if you think it would work well narratively and give a solid conclusion. Because, like I mentioned earlier, this is a story. We arnt discussing the fate of real people here. Having a villain not be redeemed is not the same as saying people who have done really bad things should not be redeemed. Likewise, having a villain be redeemed isn’t saying what they did was ok. Villain redemptions can be well done, but they have to make sense narratively and be satisfying. In this case, I personally believe a redemption for Dream would not be interesting or compelling in the slightest, for the same reason I don’t think endgame ending in a redemption arc for thanos would be interesting or compelling in the slightest, despite the fact that I like both characters.

Part of the reason I brought up marvel at all is I want to kind of reframe the story, because I feel like this fandom has a oddly unique way of viewing the characters and story. Like I mentioned, the characters are often discussed like they are real people. Discussing c!dreams fate is treated like your discussing the fate of a real man, not a character in a story. I think there are some possible reasons for this. For one, all the characters are somewhat attached to their steamers counterpart. So, we feel more attached to them as a whole, and they feel more like real people. Another reason could be that you can watch almost any perspective you like, and leave out any ones you wish to as well. It’s a bit like a choose your own adventure book. So, in a way, pretty much every character could be considered a protagonist.

Which is where I can see a possible argument against my point. In a story where every character is the protagonist, the only satisfying outcome would be one that pleases fans of every POV. Which is where I can see this argument take place of “well, do you think ___ deserves a good ending? Then what about ___?? Surely you must think everyone does, or you just have bad morals!”. It’s a unique situation that I don’t think I’ve seen before. Of course, everyone has their favorites in a story, but the difference here is there are no supporting characters or solid antagonist.

And honestly, I think originally Wilbur saw the possibility of that problem arising, which is why he once stated that he wanted the characters to serve the narrative, not the other way around. It’s interesting that we didn’t have nearly as much discussion like this back when Wilbur was writing, because the story was much more conventional. But by the time we got to season three, that sentiment had been pretty much completely thrown out the window, leaving us with what we have today.

This is why I personally prefer the previous narrative. On one hand, this current way of story telling is very unique, and has a lot of potential, but comes with a lot of downsides. Conventional story structure just,,, doesn’t work out as well. Which is why I personally see the best course of action as using Dream as the overall antagonist. Giving Dream a tragic backstory, hidden motives, and eventual redemption arc just wouldn’t do much for the story in my opinion. Sure, it would make people who enjoy and sympathize with his character happy, but it runs into the problem of all the storylines being very separate. Like yeah we can have a separate redemption arc for each and every character, but I just don’t see how we would get an actual story out of that. I think a central villain could really pull things together, but at the moment it’s unclear if that is what they are going for. I guess we’ll just have to see where things go? Maybe there’s some answers to our questions in the aforementioned Dream lore stream? I personally believe he is being written as a central antagonistic character, but I can see where the opinion that he is not comes from, despite not personally wanting the story to take that direction.

I know this is very long, and I apologize, but seeing as you often make surveys and things asking for others povs, which I would imagine results in pages of paragraphs, I figured you wouldn’t be opposed to this. I’d like to hear your opinion/thoughts, but if you don’t want to respond I am fine with that.

alrigh, putting this one onder the ol’ cut because the ask is long enough /lh

so, i don’t actually take “everyone deserves to heal” as an argument why c!dream should have a redemption arc - more like an anti-argument for why he shouldn’t. my main reasons for why i believe he should be redeemed is 1. it’s the only thing that makes sense for the story 2. it’s the thing that makes the most sense for the character 3. he just genuinely deserves better after what he’s gone through 4. at this point anything else would send a really bad message 5. he’s the perfect character with the perfect setup to get one. it’s not just because i like him.

i don’t take what people say about characters deserving redemption as proof of their real life morals, or an example for how they’d treat real people, however i can still say these takes are atrocious, make no sense, or even upsetting and make me want to interact with the person less. they’re often born from bias and are completely illogical from both an objective and a philosophical sense, which is why i speak out about them, not for real life morality issues. this fandom has some of the most ridiculous and unsettling views of the story i’ve seen.

stories are not meant to be 100% realistic. art is supposed to have an improvement of real life - redemption arcs in stories that are well-written aren’t invalidated just because in real life, people don’t become better more often than not. if all bad people became good people, that would be cool actually - it’s not what’s gonna happen in real life, but doesn’t mean i should be opposed to it if it’s pulled off well.

alright, full disclosure, i have never watched a marvel movie in my life. i don’t plan to, really, i read books instead of watching movies most of the time. with the limited knowledge i have of thanos, i’d say some parallels can be drawn, but they’re not the same character at all, nor is their personality, story, or narrative the same. we have gotten confirmation on the fact his goal is peace and for people to get along, and i don’t know what you mean by “pieced together fanon”, but people believe or deny what they want, so whatever. i’d argue he’s easier to sympathize with, but then again, i haven’t watched marvel movies, so in my mind thanos is less a “sympathize” and more of a “understand his motives” type of guy.

i think that if thanos was a character in an environment of less than thirty people, with a home he owned and his family torn apart and divided, becoming more and more ruthless in attempts to stop people from starting long-winded conflict, who has proven again and again to care about people, but employ horrible tactics less despite and more as a result of it, and was defeated and abused in a cruel prison system for several months, while the narrative deliberately shows of his humanity - then yes, i think he should be redeemed. if that is not thanos, then perhaps you should’ve chosen a better comparison, or not used one at all.

seems very out of character to me. perhaps if you think c!dream and thanos are really the same person, you should start considering actual canon more than your own feelings about the character. just a suggestion.

i myself think that everyone on the smp deserves to heal and be redeemed, however i think c!dream will be the only person to get an arc in the upcoming months, because everything is pointing towards the fact and at this point it is pretty obvious the story has picked that option to go with. this is purely story and narrative-based, and my feelings match up with it more than the other way around.

i believe that a redemption arc for c!dream would, because of recent as well as older developments, be the only compelling and interesting writing choice in the upcoming arc. you disagreeing - well, i guess that’ll be your opinion until you’re proven wrong or not. however i strongly disagree because of the themes, narrative and characterization that seem to strongly disagree with you on the subject as well.

cc!wilbur’s literal last wish when leaving the writing was to keep all characters morally grey, no overall antagonist or protagonist. and the writers did a hell of a good job with that, however i guess the fandom wasn’t ready for darker and more philosophically difficult themes to be explored so they promptly switched to a pure black-and-white view of the story (which cc!wilbur straight up criticized them for), i think to try and gain a moral high-ground or something?? idk, they ruined the thing for themselves though, it was definitely not the writers’ fault.

there is no “the story” from a narrative stand-point. all of the characters have wildly different narratives and outlooks. if c!dream’s redemption wouldn’t do much for the story you are watching? honestly why should i care, the dream smp is more complex than that.

if you think c!dream should stay the overall antagonist, maybe you’ve already lost track of the lore. quackity at the moment seems to be the character with the most potential to make a negative impact on several characters’ narrative (hence becoming an antagonist of at least part of the overall story) while c!dream is stuck being the literal victim of his in a prison that is deliberately framed by the writers as dehumanizing and corrupt. if “this character’s vulnerability is being exposed and he is being actively traumatized and outdone by a different villainous character” doesn’t scream “extremely likely redemption arc” to you, i don’t know what will.

c!dream hasn’t been the “central antagonist” for the past six months and there are like three characters already fighting over filling in the spot. if you don’t want the narrative to take that direction? i am sorry, but i don’t think there is much you can do about it.

[secondsofhappiness]

How Robert Sugden Stole Christmas

I have to say, I have been watching Emmerdale for nearly 23 years now and that was hands down the most batshit crazy episode they've ever done.

This could be a long post...!

First off, I think the premise was clear: delve into Robert's head and offer an insight into him, his past and his future and to try to tie up some loose ends including issues with family, Aaron and his own mental health. That much was obvious and I think they achieved a lot of that but I think it could have been done in a much more simple way with less confusion (some moments baffled me a little) and a little more clarity in storytelling.

We have Rob realising, through his dreams, that his actions cannot continue, being smacked in the face with the possible outcome of his behaviour...

I mean, not only is the inside of Rob's brain INSANE, it's fascinating what it focuses on - high fashion (did you see Charity's HAT?!), guy liner, Jimmy's underpants (what the ever loving hell?!), Aaron in a suit (obvs), Doug's incessant rambling and Dan dancing in a velvet suit. Christ. Frightening.

The thing I adored was that it started with The Sugdens and ended with them too. He woke up to them in his dreams AND his reality. The focus on them as a family was the best part of the whole episode to me. I'll get back to that...

- Aaron would die if Rob didn't change? I mean, I get that in the past Aaron's self harming was an issue and Aaron alluded to his mental health being so bad that he'd end up in a dark place but it didn't make sense to me why Aaron would be dead. Or was this just a way to shock Rob into realisation?

- Seb. Why did Rebecca say he was ill and no longer around? What on earth was that about?

- Lawrence still has feelings for Robert? What was the whole cheek stroking moment?! Are we still there?!

That aside - VALERIE EFFING POLLARD. The fact she appeared sitting on her gravestone, sassing everyone and making terrible jokes at Rob's expense. Perfection. I am SO SO happy she was the returning character and it made me realise how desperately I missed her. She made the first half for me.

Ryan was endlessly wonderful, especially with the wide eyed "what the hell" moments as they progressed and the sass. His one-liners never ever fail to make me smile hugely. Ryan delivers them like no other and I enjoyed the many Jimmy hugs. Again, WHAT THE HELL WAS WITH JIMMY'S underpants? Rob's subconscious is bloody screwed up!

So Rob learned a weirdo lesson. It was all a little heavy handed, abstract and confused but I got their intention - he needed to be shown that his actions have consequences that he normally doesn't see or isn't faced with the reality of.

I LOVED Rebecca's portion of the "lesson" for her words. They were GOOD words. The whole speech about the attraction of Rob, how he has no friends and generally slapping him in the face with reality was so refreshing as it was all about Rob and his character and it was very aware. The show does know who he is and I was so giddy that they really displayed that.

On a hilarious note - Rob in guyliner being kicked into a grave was bloody hysterical, not to mention Chas in her dramatic "mourning mother" outfit. The whole thing was camp and ridiculous and crazy fun even if it was a little too wacky to make that much sense at times hahaha

Then we have the reality. The Sugden scene right off the bat was my favourite part of the episode. We have gotten so used to Rob dismissing his family, showing little interest in spending time with them (unless he wants something or can't escape them) and I've felt so disappointed of late that Rob and Vic never seem to have a sibling relationship. I felt it so deeply in this episode with her teasing and her cuddles. That whole scene was simple but full of such warmth. Rob even gently teased Doug. Diane was a true mother figure and Vic was such a little sister. It was so lovely and watching Rob slowly feel grateful for them ending with a cuddle that clearly meant a lot to him... it was wonderful to me. All I could think was that when they left, who else will visit him? It was very Scrooge-esque. I truly felt Rob's loneliness and isolation in the moment that Vic was perhaps going to leave. What a sad sad moment that was and Rob's teary eyes were gut wrenching.

Then there's the Aaron of it all.

Now, I feel like the episode was designed to end two strands of storyline:

1) Aaron's path to self worth, agency and confidence

2) Robert's path to realisation, a healthy lifestyle and acceptance of his behaviour

I liked the Rob we saw. I LOVED the recognition that Rob has done this before - the whole seeing the light bit - and has a poor record of carrying through. That was EXCELLENT. It's true and it's so important for his character to recognise that.

I loved his line about loving Aaron more than himself. That was so well written and illuminating. It's so unhealthy that he feels that way. We've seen it time and time again. I also really loved the moment he accepted that his relationship with Aaron was intense in good and bad ways. It's so true and it was a WONDERFUL moment of clarity for him. His behaviour with Alex was also crazy illuminating. It's not the first time he has recognise that Alex is "perfect" and what Aaron "should be with". Fine, he's simple and easy to love and just generally inoffensive and good. That's a brilliant thing and Rob sees this as what Aaron should have. Aaron should be with someone who makes him happy and treats him well but we all know Alex isn't it. He's way too plain for him but, for now, he's easy and gentle and the antithesis of Rob and well, isn't that the point?!

The final scene was really something.

This is the progress I wanted for them all along. It's the redemption I wanted for Rob all along.

His strength of character and his self awareness was striking to me and I was so stunned by him this whole episode especially during the scene with Alex. He was like "if you like Aaron, you are insane and a total coward if you don't fight me for him." Jesus. Character development or what

The fact that he OPENLY admitted that he'd be a crying heap on the floor or throwing himself out of the window. The fact his feelings were on the surface of his skin. The fact he let people care for him. The fact that he was honest with Aaron in such a vulnerable way... it was all truly something to cherish as a fan of Rob's character. He has never been given so much insight before and it was so special.

I loved that a few things were made very obvious:

- Rob did this for Aaron

- Rob also did it for himself despite how much it hurt

- Rob is focusing on himself and being better

- Rob is allowing his family in a little

- Rob loves Aaron very very much

- Aaron loves Rob very very much

- Aaron is the person in control of his own life and his own choices (this was really important after the past few weeks of people dictating to him)

- Aaron and Rob CANNOT be without each other in their lives in some way

- Robert has a friend (which we all knew he had anyway but him actively declaring his friendship with Aaron as something so vital and important... lovely)

All of this was so final but in a "mid point" kind of way. It was healthy and a rather lovely way for them to find some peace. It turned an INCREDIBLY complex relationship into something rather simple - we both care deeply but romantic shiz isn't on the cards so we are committed to be friends

This didn't seem like friends in the cop out sense. It seemed very firm and accepted and truthful. Aaron wanted it and it meant a lot to him, clearly. Rob, well, he wants is desperately and means it but the hurt will take a little while to lessen.

All in all, it was bloody weird. Good but weird and emotional and I haven't a flipping clue where we go from here but if there's one thing you can't deny, it's that Danny and Ryan have RIDICULOUS chemistry and their scenes - no matter the subject matter or tone - are forever incredible. Ryan carried that episode and god does he have range - he can flip from comedy to heartbreak so rapidly it's a joy.

So yeah! I'm off to rewatch again as my family are all asleep so I'll no doubt have more random thoughts. I'd love to know what you all think though ☺️