#i often see her as the renaissance livia drusilla alas without her octavian djsjdsjs

[ducavalentinos]

In the 3rd season of Borgia Faith & Fear, Della Rovere tells Lucrezia "of all the Borgias, I think you are the most dangerous", I find it funny bc I don't remember Lucrezia was being especially threatening to DR there. Do you think this phrase could be applied to Lucrezia? In which cases could she (always seen as tragic & passive)have been more "dangerous" or influential than the almighty Rodrigo and the energetic Cesare? Perhaps in things related to diplomacy and behind-the-scenes maneuvering?

Oh, this scene! it was a good one. And no, she wasn’t being especially threatening to DR there, not in an obvious, male way, which tends to be more overt, but she was kinda being it in a female way, which tends to be more covert, and which can be more dangerous at times because you don’t see it coming, and that I believe, was the point of the scene. DR clearly saw the threat in Rodrigo and Cesare, but he never saw it in Lucrezia, until that moment. That was when he realized that behind her mask of beauty, charm and piety, laid an very intelligent and diplomatic woman, who knew how to use her feminine charms to get what she wanted, and that indeed made her more dangerous than her male relatives, who in Fontana’s version, are uncharacteristically unstable, obvious in their plans, and openly and stupidly confrontational with their enemies. In this world, Della Rovere was used to that, but he wasn’t used to the tactics Lucrezia was employing there, so he was definitely like: hmmm, I need to be careful here, more than ever before djsdjdsjdsj. And yes, anon, I do think this phrase could be applied to historical Lucrezia, despite the insistence of Borgian scholars to keep fallaciously reducing her to a tragic, passive figure, who was only a victim of "patriarchy" and "the terrible, ambitious men" in her family, looool. Much like it happens with Cesare, Lucrezia's historical material, her actions, do not support the majority of the claims made about her and the overall presentation of her historical figure, on the contrary, it constantly heavily points towards different conclusions about her character, her life, and most of all: her family dynamics with her beloved father and brothers. I think it must be understood that Lucrezia seems to have had a preference for the incognito way of doing politics, and to not treat it as a lesser form of doing politics, because in truth, it is very wise, also. She was as intelligent, politically cunning, ambitious and pragmatic as her family, and other noblewomen of her times, but she does not seem to have wanted to broadcast that to the world, she doesn't seem to have had any desire to let others perceive her as a political player, perhaps because she was aware it brought more disadvantages than advantages, man or woman, once you were perceived by others as a political threat, it made you an easy target for violence, and it added an extra difficulty in making political moves without being noticed, (and the element of suprise, of secrecy, is one of the key factors of successsful policies or of achieving a certain political goal) Lucrezia witnessed that first hand, with Juan being murdered, Rodrigo and Cesare having various murder attempts to their person over the years they were in power, and with their every move constantly being watched, their words and actions scrutinized by their contemporaries. Lucrezia had no need for that, so the lack of records about her private life (even Gregorovius in the end admits nothing is known about her private life while she was in Rome) and of her political side does look like it was partly like her own doing. A deliberate effort into making herself as unnoticeable as possible where political affairs were concerned, simultaneously always taking great care in her appearance in public, from her dressings, to her hair, to her walk, to her speech. She always presented herself as the beautiful, graceful, fashionable, joyful, and pious daughter of the Pope. This presentation does contain a certain political tactic, or dissimulation to it, much like the one made by Cesare to Machiavelli, or Rodrigo to the Venetian orators and ambassadors, with his seemingly honest talk with them, like they were close friends, when that was far from being the case. And here's the thing: it is quite obvious this presentation worked to her advantage, according to the historical records, most people who met her, especially men, fell for it, (even her biographers to this day do) and they all appear to have never seen it past what she presented to them, in that way, she could,

and did, obtain what she wished from them: eulogies praising her virtues (a good and necessary PR the rest of her family should probably have paid as close attention to as she seems to have done tsc tsc), beautiful love poems, and of course valuable information and people who felt so attached to her person they were willing to help her in her political and romantic intrigues.

This all can be observed in various occasions during her lifetime: The writings of Ariosto and other intellectuals about her, the passionate love poems and letters of Bembo, the documented actions of both the Marquis of Mantua, and Ercole Strozzi concerning her. And we have the very interesting words of one of spies of Isabella d'Este, known as il Prete, whom she sent to Rome with the precise task of him learning every detail about Lucrezia, but when he met with her, he ended up disclosing more about his mistress to her than of actually learning anything significant about her, and in one of his reports to Isabella he says: "She[Lucrezia] is a lady of keen intelligence and perspicacity...” and in another one he writes: “one had to have one’s wits about one when speaking with her..." And as far as influence goes, there is certainly material indicating she did had a strong influence with her father, and it can only be speculated with her brothers, (although I think she did to a certain extent, I think it is undeniable that her contemporaries were aware she was the darling of the family, and to offend her in any way would immediately put them in disfavour with Rodrigo, Cesare and Juan, they spoiled her a lot, and were very protective of her) but it is noted Lucrezia was the constant recipient of petitions to Rodrigo, of various sorts, which implies they saw her as the best intermediary between them and the Pope, in order for them to get their wishes granted. Not Cesare, not Juan. So within the family, her influence can be supported by the evidence, and outside the family the evidence is way more limited, but considering all this, I don't think it would be far-fetched to say that not only it does seem she played a bigger role in the politics than it is usually conceded to her, but that she very well could have been more dangerous, more influential at times than Rodrigo and Cesare, only behind the scenes, as it really does appear to have been her MO. For all of the excellent diplomacy and political skills Rodrigo and Cesare had, they were still men, men at the front stage of power nonetheless, which caused other men to be more guarded in their presence, even if they felt dazzled by Cesare or Rodrigo's strong allure, however, with Lucrezia, I think it was a different story. She had the same mental and political capabilities they had, in fact, I'd argue there is much indicating she learned a lot from them, but all of that came under, was deliberately hidden by her, by the feminine cover, which both made these traits and her being perceived as a threat a lot harder, if not impossible, to detect. Which naturally, as seen above, prompted men, perhaps also women (although Isabella d'Este would not be included in this list jdsjdsj, for I think apart from her personal prejudices against Lucrezia and her family, she also recognized from the get-go the political shrewdness in Lucrezia since she was also a shrewed political woman herself), to lower their guards around her, and speak more freely, and here I believe, Lucrezia had a bigger room to be influential with them, engaging in diplomatic conversations, suggesting ideas about a particular political situation, asking something from them, and that being more well received than it would have been if it had been otherwise proposed or offered by her father and brother, and perhaps even her husbands.