#i mean henry viii was claiming his marriage with katherine of aragon was incest

[guzhuangheaven]

I was wondering why it was so “difficult” to depose an empress during the Qing Dynasty? I know Shunzi did this. I remember Empress Nara, who supposedly cut her hair and Qianlong couldn't stand it, but despite everything he didn't depose her. I even remember a scene from Ruyi where Qianlong says that despite knowing Empress Xiaoxianchun's involvement in the whole A'ruo and Hui situation, nothing good would come of punishing her unless he messed with her position, which doesn't happen.

The emperor doesn’t marry for love, but to secure political support. He also doesn’t marry a woman, he marries for her family. The title of empress is also not about Langhua (or Ruyi for that matter), but is a symbol of female power in the inner court which complements the emperor’s own power in the outer court. An emperor’s top priority would be to balance the two and project an image of stability, not indulge his own feelings. 

It’s always been established that in universe, the Fucha clan holds significant (military) power, and in particular her brother Fuheng also has established himself as a competent and important military figure. She also has like 9 brothers who probably all hold various positions in court. Having control of military power is extremely important for an emperor and deposing Langhua will lose Qianlong the loyalty of the Fucha clan and especially Fuheng, which is a political disaster. At this point, Qianlong is still a relatively young emperor only in his 30s, he can’t afford to offend such a powerful military family. 

(By the time Langhua is exposed to Qianlong, Hejing is also engaged i.e. practically married to the Mongolian Borjigit clan, an extremely important military ally to Qing emperors, so he can’t risk offending them either. The only reason Langhua ever agreed to the engagement was also because she was pressured by her family to not let the power of alliance with the Borjigit clan go to the empress dowager’s family.) (Actually no, the engagement came after. Ignore this.)

Historically, multiple generations of Empress Xiaoxian’s family have served through the reigns of 3 emperors. 三代忠臣 (loyal subjects for three generations) is a huge claim, a current emperor cannot dismiss that level of loyalty, that’s practically asking for trouble from all his other subjects. Because if he could be so ungrateful to those who served loyally for 3 generations, what’s his loyalty to them? Why should any of his other subjects remain loyal? 

Langhua was chosen by the late emperor and (for all intents and purposes) Qianlong’s mother as his official wife. At this point, she has also given birth to multiple children both sons and daughters, risking her life in the process. To the world, she has been a model empress. All this holds enormous weight. Unless Langhua did something very publicly horrible that absolutely could not be hidden away, to expose any of her bad deeds would be an enormous loss of face, which in itself would have been unthinkable to an emperor as conscious of his own image as Qianlong. To cast doubts on Langhua would be saying that the late emperor and empress dowager made a horrible choice. To taint the reputations of the late emperor or the empress dowager like that could be considered as an unfilial act on Qianlong’s part. 

An emperor divorcing and deposing his empress in general is also politically and socially bad. The emperor is considered the nation’s father and the empress the nation’s mother, so the state of the emperor’s family is representative of the state of the country itself. If there is peace and harmony in the emperor’s family then that’s indicative of peace and harmony in the country. If the emperor can’t even keep order within his family, he’s inviting challenge to his ability to rule the nation. It would also create a lot of unsavoury gossip among the people which would get distorted and ruin the reputation of the imperial family. To allow that kind of gossip about the imperial family to spread among the people brings them down to the common’s people’s level and once the emperor and empress are no longer these godly figures, it’s a lot easier for rebellions to form. 

Shunzi deposing his first empress was an unpopular decision that probably led to a whole load of political instability. Shunzi was a teenager? (he died in his very early 20s) at the time he deposed his first empress, which showed his lack of maturity and foresight. He has also been emperor since the age of (insert stupidly young number here I can’t remember) and probably took his position for granted, whereas Qianlong has lived through his father’s battle against his uncles for the throne, and witnessed his own brother being disowned. He would have been very aware that he has to fight to secure his power, so it’s not surprising that he would not even contemplate deposing any of his empresses.

Shunzi also didn’t have to consider his children. No matter how Qianlong felt about Langhua or Ruyi, to depose them would be casting his own children (dead and alive) into disgrace. Both in history and drama, Qianlong was very fond of Hejing, and he had already given Yonglian the position of Crown Prince posthumously, based on the fact that he was the son of the empress (let’s be real the kid was 8 when he died, there’s no other reason to make him posthumous crown prince other than because he was the empress’ son). To strip Langhua of her position as empress would be to strip Yonglian of any claim to the Crown Prince title. No matter what Langhua did, to ruin Yonglian’s legacy posthumously like that is extremely cruel and not something Qianlong would want attached to his own reputation either as a father or emperor. 

With Ruyi, Yongji was still alive, while Yongji did suffer (historically) from his mother’s fall from grace (considering he never was granted any title higher than beile), to depose Ruyi is to strip Yongji of his (official) position as son of the empress. At that point, Qianlong had very few eligible sons left, and that kind of political upheaval among the princes would have been an extremely bad idea. 

Whatever reason was for Ruyi or Empress Ulanara to cut her hair in history, to depose her, Qianlong would have to announce the reason and that would be airing his dirty laundry to the world. The records sort of say she "went crazy" but people were rational enough to understand that an empress who had until that moment had an unblemished reputation and just a few days before was fine didn't randomly just "go crazy". Even if she actually did, for Qianlong to depose her would have made him seem cruel. To have her retain her title means that he at least salvages the situation by appearing to be generous and benevolent, and doesn’t have to deal with the fall out of deposing an empress at a time in his life where it would have caused more trouble than good. 

Honestly if Qianlong wanted to depose Ruyi, he would have to have a new empress to re-establish stability. Historically or in drama, Ling Fei would be completely out of the question as she was a Han and originated as a palace maid. And yet she was the highest ranking among the consorts at the time. There was probably no other obvious contender for the position of empress, and even if there were, to promote them above Ling Fei who at the time had the most children, would have more destabilised the inner palace rather than stabilise it. 

All these things are not just considerations for the emperor personally, but would have been issues that all his high ranking advisers and officials would have thought about and been their reason for them to oppose a decision to depose the empress. Honestly, who wants their own legacy to be someone serving under an emperor who deposed his empress? 

Tl;dr: the political and personal legacy ramifications of deposing an empress is REALLY not worth the effort.

[shalebridge-cradle]

Historical References in What Are You Going to Do With Your Life? Chapters 4-6

Chapter 4

Whoever is getting executed… would probably be better off at Tyburn, for all the indignity they will suffer. Tyburn was where the regular criminals got hanged, including the ringleaders of the Pilgrimage of Grace (see below). Tower Hill was the next step up (this is where George Boleyn, Thomas Cromwell and both Thomas and Edward Seymour were executed), then Tower Green, where Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard were beheaded.

The song Anne sings (and is referenced in the opening notes) is called With Her Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm, written in 1934 and found here. The three queens referenced in the last verse are the same three that appear in this scene – Jane Seymour, Anne Boleyn, and Catherine Parr.

Anne Boleyn is trying hard not to reference all the people she saw tortured and killed while haunting the Tower, including her sister-in-law Jane Parker-Boleyn and her cousin Katherine Howard. And also likely bemoaning the fact she can’t play with Henry’s mace-gun.

Catherine’s attempted mugging is a reference to two things – her near-execution for heresy during her third marriage, and being held hostage by the Pilgrimage of Grace during her second (a rebellion against Henry’s break from the Catholic church – her husband at the time, John Neville, was a Catholic who wasn’t directly involved, and some participants attempted to force him to support their cause).

Catherine Parr was the first English queen to be Queen of both England and Ireland, following Henry’s adoption of the title of King of Ireland in 1542.

Chapter 5

Anne Boleyn was charged with adultery, treason and incest – but not witchcraft. Henry VIII, however, did claim he had been seduced into the marriage by ‘sortilege’, a French word meaning either ‘deception’ or ‘spells’.

Anna’s comment about Parr’s looks was recorded by Eustace Chapuys, Holy Roman ambassador to England. Cleves was quoted saying regarding the marriage, “Madam Parr is taking a great burden on herself”. She was right.

“When you started opening and closing that locket in front of me, it made me feel… angry. Is that what you want?” Henry gave Jane Seymour a locket with a miniature portrait of himself in it, which Jane started opening and closing in Queen Anne’s presence. Anne ripped the locket off of her with such force, she injured her hand in doing so.

Jane Seymour’s only reported involvement in her husband’s politics was in 1536, where she asked the king to pardon the participants of the Pilgrimage of Grace. The king refused, and supposedly reminded her of Boleyn’s fate should she go against him in the future.

‘Yea’ and ‘Nay’ were used concurrently with ‘Yes’ and ‘No’, but in different contexts. ‘Yea’ and ‘Nay’ were used for positively-phrased questions (“Will they go?” “Do you think he deserved it?”), with yea as confirmation and nay as contradiction.‘Yes’ and ‘No’ were for negatively-phrased questions (“Will they not go?” “Doesn’t that hurt?”), with no as confirmation and yes as a contradiction.

The false claims Anne makes about her personal appearance are most likely to be attributed to Nicholas Sander, a Catholic propagandist who was in exile during the reign of Elizabeth I. Her skeleton was exhumed during Queen Victoria’s reign – she was about 5’ 3”, and did not have a sixth finger on either hand.

Parr’s comments are in reference to The Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir. The assumption about Howard being an ‘empty-headed wanton’ is made on page 3.

Chapter 6

Boleyn was “going through some stuff” in the 1600s because Elizabeth I died in 1603. The events she makes reference to are the Great Plague of London, the Great Fire of London, and the English Civil War.

How is it that the country thought the best move was to decapitate the body politic?  The ‘body politic’ is a long-standing metaphor by which a state, society or church is compared to a biological organism (usually a human body). In a monarchy, the king was usually depicted as either the heart or the head of this body, the latter shown in this terrifying book cover.

Parr’s nightmare is reference to when her tomb was opened in 1782 by John Locust. He reports that the body was in good condition, than that the flesh on her arm was ‘white and moist’, and that he took a few locks of her hair before sealing her up again. The next time the coffin was opened, nothing was left but a skeleton.

Maria? I cannot see you. Do not leave me alone. Where are you? María de Salinas, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby and ‘Maria on the drums’, reportedly held Catherine of Aragon as she died, having forced her way into Kimbolton Castle to see her. Catherine Parr was reported to have learned Spanish after becoming queen, and so the language is translated.

Henry VIII’s last wife was young enough to be named after his first. Gross.

“What happened to Mary? Was she queen? Was she happy?” Queen? Yes. Happy? Hard no. Mary I was reported to have executed roughly 300 or so people during her reign. Even if we use the lower estimate of 50,000 people over 36 years, Henry VIII executed significantly more of his subjects per year (about 1400) than Mary did throughout her whole tenure as queen. It does not in any way excuse her actions (or the actions of monarchs before and after her), but the name ‘Bloody Mary’ likely comes from being on the wrong side of England’s conflict of faith.

The card game being played by Boleyn, Howard and von Kleve is Primero, which was popular in the Tudor period. You knock on the table and say “Vada” (Go) when you’re happy with your hand. If someone else has also knocked, you face off – the better hand wins.

‘The Cat Came Back’ is a comic song written in 1893 about a cat (colour varies depending on the version) that refuses to leave, despite what his reluctant owner does. I hate the song, but I like the pun.

The word beginning with ‘p’ that Howard was going to say was ‘poison’. There were rumours, also thrown around after the deaths of Catherine Parr and Edward VI, that Catherine of Aragon was poisoned. The black growth discovered on her heart during embalming wasn’t understood to be cancer at the time. This theory was mentioned by Christina of Denmark, one of Henry’s potential fourth wives and relative to Catherine of Aragon, as a reason she had no desire to marry Henry (amongst others). Boleyn refutes this potential cause of death; she, along with Henry, was a possible suspect.

(Side note: Christina of Denmark was pretty great. She reportedly struggled to keep a straight face while the English ambassador told her how gentle and kind Henry was, and supposedly said “If I had two heads, one should be at the King of England’s disposal”. She was out of the running pretty definitively, though not due to her ‘match with the Duke of Milan’ as per the show. He was dead as of 1535, and Christina was still a widow from 1537 to 1539, when Henry was pursuing her. She was married to the future Duke of Lorraine (Anne of Cleves’ old betrothed) in 1541.)

“…even though Boleyn will probably outplay me again.” I was researching whether or not Catherine of Aragon was reported to have played cards, and in doing so found many Etsy listings and one oil painting by a William Maw Egley. The line is a reference to both the events of the painting and Anne taking the position of queen from Catherine.

[snapheart1536]

Logic IV

(Philippa Gregory Special!)

Incest

Richard III, a man in his thirties, has an affair with his adolescent niece.

Philippa Gregory: "Oh it's SO BEAUTIFUL!!! How romantic! How sweet! They shall bring the Golden Age of Camelot again!"

Anne Boleyn sleeps with her brother George.

Philippa Gregory: "OH DEAR GOD THE HORROR!!! OMIGOD HOW LOW CAN SHE SINK!!! PERVERT!!! EEW LOOK AT THE MUTANT FŒTUS!!!"

Makes sense.

Adultery

Mary Boleyn claims to practically worship Katherine of Aragon, yet delights in sleeping with Henry VIII.

She has two kids by him (including A Precious Boy) and has the brass neck to expect her husband to take them as his own.

Philippa Gregory: "Yes, but she Respects Katherine, so that makes it okay. At least she didn't hold out for marriage, which would be morally indefensible. Only whores do that. Good girls know their place."

Anne Boleyn won't sleep with Henry until he's left Katherine.

Philippa Gregory: "FILTHY DIRTY WHORE!!! SHE DEFILED A SACRED UNION!!! SHE WANTED MARRIAGE LIKE A SLUT!!!"

Makes sense.

Deception

Katherine of Aragon lies about her marriage to Arthur so Henry will marry her.

Philippa Gregory: "How noble to consider only herself when she's suffering! How gracious to lose her True Love and yet remember her own interests! Don't you understand she is the Chosen One? God Wants Her To Lie, so it doesn't count. She MUST do this to build the Earthly Paradise she and Arthur planned. It's for the Greater Good."

Anne Boleyn lies about a marriage to Henry Percy so Henry will marry her.

Philippa Gregory: "Can you believe some people lie to get what they want? She LIED. It's like totally the same as genocide. Hah, but wasn't really a queen was she? Ha! At last I have invalidated the bitch! Would you credit that she had the nerve to expect marriage pretending to be a virgin? What kind of diabolical old trollop would do that? Saint Katherine the Martyr would never do such a thing."

Makes sense.

Child Murder

Margaret Beaufort murdered the Princes in the Tower so her son could be king.

Philippa Gregory: "VILE OLD CRONE!!! WHORE OF SATAN!!! SHE DRANK THEIR BLOOD!!!"

Elizabeth Woodville is a witch and curses her enemies' children, meaning the daft bitch kills off her own descendants.

Philippa Gregory: "Isn't she just the best? I love her!"

Makes sense.

Accuracy

Philippa Gregory likes slandering people she hates.

Gregory's Fangirls: "Oh for God's sake! It's FICTION!!! Nobody expects it to be totally right. Is it her fault the public are too STOOPID to know that?"

Five minutes later:

Gregory's Fangirls: "What you defending Anne Boleyn for anyway? She was A TOTAL BITCH to her poor sister. I know because the book told me and Dear Pippa wouldn't lie to me because she wouldn't."

Philippa Gregory keeps names the same so it's clear who you're meant to hate.

Gregory's Fangirls: "Oh honestly! I'm sick of this assumption that Dear Pip's books are made up. It's a complete misconception. Us clever people rise above this populist nonsense. I mean, there actually WAS a woman named Anne Boleyn and she DID get beheaded! What more do you want? The effort it must've took to include such weighty facts! The sacrifices she made just to please you pedants! Where's her Victoria Cross?"

Makes sense.

Adaption

Philippa Gregory changes history for her novels.

Philippa Gregory: "No I don't, it's word-for-word what happened. I'm famous for it you know. Don't come to me with your so-called 'evidence', you tiresome oik. Don't you know that I am a Visionary? My Art speaks to a truer Truth than your supposed 'sources' ever could."

Philippa Gregory's novels are changed for film and television.

Philippa Gregory: "OMIGOD I feel violated! They changed it? They tampered with its beauty? THEY RAPED MY BABY!!! It's my ART damn you! Some things are sacred! ART!!!"

Makes sense.