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risingsouls · 8 months ago

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So Momo, you mentioned before that Vegeta has complicated feelings about his race. What are they of exactly? Does he mourn the Saiyans being gone? Does he not care? Does he miss the role he was supposed to fulfill as prince, and eventually king? Are there other, obscure factors at play? Do tell, if you want to 👀

[Bless u Nebula for giving me a platform to discuss why I think Vegeta is more complex than we usually get to see.

This got long, so under the cut lmao

To start with the topic at hand, ideas of celebrating the Saiyans makes him itchy because it brings up all his repressed, complicated feelings about his race, most potently just the fact that they're dead. Thus, celebrating something like Saiyan day sounds really stupid to him. But I will try to delve into the depths of those feelings here and address your questions. And maybe some other thing if my mush brain can manage it.

Even though Vegeta has made callous comments about his races demise, up to and including basically suggesting they "deserved it" because they were to weak to stop it, this is all just posturing on his part. An attempt to act strong and unaffected in front of others, especially Nappa and Raditz who he was the sole monarch to after their planet was destroyed. It was also a way for him to cope that was easier for him since that was basically the Saiyan mentality: the strong survive, the weak don't. He just...tries not to think about the fact that the three of them were simply lucky to have been off planet. That they would be space dust with the rest of them if not for that simple fact. Most people, including Nappa and later Raditz, likely see through this, but they don't really dare to correct him. These days, he doesn't say these kinds of things; he's not trying to fool himself anymore, in other words.

That said, he does still mourn the loss of the Saiyans and his home. In truth, this is the first time in his life he's had the chance to, and parsing through it all has been an ongoing process. He won't admit to it or do it openly because of how he was raised, and might even suggest that he doesn't care anymore, but he definitely does mourn them.

As for missing his role as prince/king...I'm not sure if that's the way to word it exactly. In a sense, he didn't really want to be king because the role meant he would be stuck planetside more often than he would like. However, ruling the Saiyans was still his birthright, and it was one he wanted to SOME degree in that sense. It is still complicated though because, on one hand, he does feel he was denied that birthright and all that came with it. But at the same time, it's hard for him to care with the entire race he was meant to rule is dead + depression. So basically, he didn't necessarily want to rule, but that was still supposed to be HIS right.

Additionally, Vegeta feels he failed his people. He failed to save them, even if he was a kid. He failed Nappa and Raditz, the last two Saiyans he knew of before meeting Goku, even if that was partially his own fault for his callous behavior arguably learned from Frieza to certain degrees (I need to write about this again akdfjkladf). He basically feels like a failure who doesn't deserve his title as prince and, on the worst days, doesn't feel he deserves to call himself a Saiyan at all because he's sure his ancestors would be disappointed in him, what happened, and who he became.

The irony in all this is that, even if he were presented with the ability to revive them...it wouldn't be an easy yes for him (as seen in a thread I had long ago with @earthforsaken :'3). On the one hand, it's been so long. The nihilist in him thinks it would be pointless. He sees nothing good coming from reviving them and their planet. It's also about that last point of feeling like a failure. That he wouldn't live up the the high expectations the Saiyans had for him, especially since he had been beaten by Goku, a Saiyan of a lower class. He carries a lot of shame in himself, and he's certain he would see that reflected in his dead race's eyes. He isn't sure he could face that after decades of beating HIMSELF up over it all.

Overall, he is proud of his race. He's proud to call himself a Saiyan for the most part on most days. But between mourning them finally and his own perception of himself in regards to their demise and the like, things become a lot less rosy. He's working on it, on feeling that pride without the baggage attached, but it's not easy for him to do.]

#.:ask:.#// vegeta ♅#// headcanon ♅#this probably isn't everything I've thought on this topic #but he's sad #that's the moral of the story

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duhragonball · 5 years ago

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Dragon Ball Z Movie 12: Fusion Reborn (4/6)

The problem: An accident at King Yemma’s has mutated one of his ogres into Janemba, a creature with incomprehensible power. Janemba has sealed Yemma’s domain within a spiritual barrier, which has disrupted the boundary between the living and the dead. On Earth, Gohan tried using the Dragon Balls to fix things, but not even Shenron has the power to undo Janemba’s mischief.

Neither can Pikkon, since the barrier seems to resist even his most powerful attacks.

Goku has lured Janemba away so that Pikkon could rescue Yemma without distraction, but so far that hasn’t done any good. Frustrated, Pikkon shouts at the obstacle.

And a bit of it breaks away.

This is never explained, but I’m not sure an explanation is really needed here. Scolding the barrier and calling it names seems to damage it. Maybe that says something about the nature of Janemba and his power. Big J is basically rebelling against the most fundamental rules of creation, like an impudent child. The spiritual waste that made Janemba represents all the bad things done by a bunch of bad people who got sent to hell by Yemma. My working theory is that Janemba represents their collective outrage at being held accountable for their bad behavior. So maybe when Pikkon yells at the barrier, it reminds that evil ki that it really is bad and all this Janemba business doesn’t change that fact.

All that matters to Pikkon is that it works, so he tries screaming more verbal abuse at the barrier.

The trouble is that he’s only chipping away about a quarter-inch off the surface each time. He’s gonna be at this for a while.

Down in hell, Goku is trying to fight Janemba, but he’s having some trouble figuring the guy out. Earlier, he sent an army of mini-clones to dogpile Goku, and he managed to get rid of them fairly easily. This time, Janemba waves his hand, and causes a bunch of these jellybean looking things to fall down on Goku’s head.

Then he charges into the pile like a bowling ball hitting a bunch of pins.

You’d think Janemba would have a hard time hitting Goku, since he’s such a small and quick target, but Janemba’s quicker than he looks.

He also has this ability, where he can make portals. He sticks his fist through and it comes out on the other side, right next to wherever Goku is.

Also, he can kick really high. I guess when your body is roughly spherical your center of gravity makes things like this pretty easy to do.

I almost wonder if the portal thing was devised as a way to cope with Janemba’s design. Someone looked at this absolute unit and asked how he’s supposed to reach Goku with those stubby arms.

Worse, Janemba seems to know exactly what Goku is going to do before he does it. I’m not sure why this is presented like some sort of mysterious ability. If Janemba can sense ki like most of the characters in this franchise, then he can track Goku’s movements and offensives pretty well. But it would make a lot of sense if Janemba had some sort of precognitive power on top of all his other weird abilities.

But it’s a two way street. After Janemba uses the portal trick enough times, Goku has it scouted, and managess to fire a ki blast at Janemba’s fist, and sending it back through the portal to hit the rest of him.

Then he goes for a Kamehameha while Janemba’s guard is down...

... and then Janemba does whatever this is. Is that an illusion of Goku, or some sort of time warp of Goku’s actions from a second earlier?

All Goku knows is that it’s weird, wild stuff.

Janemba doesn’t seem to know what he just did either, and he finds this very amusing.

So Goku decides that he’s going to have to settle this quickly. He turns Super Saiyan 2, probably thinking that would be enough, but then Janemba fires big ki blasts out of the four holes in his belly, like some sort of anti-aircraft gun.

And here Goku wanted to wrap this up quickly. Turns out he’s still on the defensive. Even at Super Saiyan 2, it’s all he can do to stay ahead of the blasts.

And Janemba can fire at any angle, because he can just roll around to point his, uh... holes any which way.

From above, Pikkon can sense Goku’s struggle, and he probably wishes he could join in.

Or maybe he doesn’t, because Janemba’s a lot stronger than he and Goku realized. So Goku’s decided to pull out all the stops.

Hell yeah! See, this is the sort of stuff that Movies 9, 10, and 11 were sorely missing. Those films all had to contend with the fact that Goku was dead and unable to participate in the story directly, and none of them really found a good solution to that problem. Movies 9 and 10 just gave up and had Goku show up to help at the end, which is incredibly dumb, because if you’re going to do that anyway then why not have him be there from the start? Movie 11 teased the idea that Goku would be off having another, much cooler adventure off-screen.

What makes Movie 12 so great is that they finally figured out the Gordian Knot of Goku staying dead. If we can’t bring Goku to the fight, let’s just bring the fight to Goku. They should have just done that from the beginning. Just have Bojack attack Goku on the Grand Kai Planet. Have Broly cause trouble in hell, just like Movie 11 suggested. They went to a lot of trouble to have Broly miraculously survive his death scene in Movie 8, just so he could appear in Movie 10, and it wasn’t even worth it. They could have just kept him dead and let Goku fight him for two movies in a row.

But we all know Broly ‘93 would be no match for Goku ‘95. That’s why you send in Janemba, because he’s the big gun we need.

Look at how bad ass this is. Goku to everybody: Come get this work.

Grimly, Goku praises Janemba for being only the second person to push him this far. So I guess that proves the Buu Saga happened in this movie, even though Goku’s still dead afterward.

Then he just looks at Janemba, and in the fansub from when I first saw this movie, he says “It’s a fight from here on.” That’s my favorite line, right there.

Then it’s go time. No more tricks, no more games, Janemba’s in Goku Town now, and he’s about to get taken to the city dump.

Janemba can’t do shit against Super Saiyan 3 Goku. He just starts clubberin’ him and Janemba has to take it.

Then he flies really high up and Janemba wonders what he’s going to do....

... and Goku just dives fist-first into Janemba, just driving his ki right into the dude. Brutal!

It’s not really clear what all of this is doing to the guy, but all of these explosions can’t be good.

Goku flies clear of him, and it sure looks like he’s won. Janemba convulses a few times, but he seems to be getting weaker...

But then his flesh begins to reassemble itself somehow...

Goku isn’t sure what that means, but he can sense that something is terribly wrong.

Uh-oh...

Uh-oh....!

Uh-ohhhhhh! Yeah, that’s not good.

So Janemba’s alive, and he’s taken on a new form. This never goes well for the other guy when this happens, so Goku’s probably in trouble now.

Back on Earth, we don’t really see what Gohan and Videl are up to, but we do follow Goten and Trunks, who have gone back to confront Hitler’s tanks.

For some reason, Goten seems discouraged by these odds, even though they can punch tanks into other tanks very easily. The boys haven’t even turned Super Saiyan yet...

Oh, well now they have. What was Goten so worried about?

I mean, I guess the soldiers can’t really be beaten, since they can just come back to life indefinitely, but you’d think that if Trunks breaks a tank, it stays broken. Where did Hitler get all these tanks anyway?

Never mind that shit, because now Janemba’s gonna fight Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Team Four Star did a countdown of the best fights in 2018, and this was the only fight from the classic movies to make the cut. Funny how Goku vs. Wheelo didn’t make the list, even though they ranked Movie 2 ahead of this one on their 2015 movie countdown. Don’t mind me, I’m still bitter.

I can’t do this fight justice with screencaps, and it’s tough to gif a lot of these shots, too. Both guys are moving around so much and the action is so fluid and skillfully choreographed. One of my favoirte bits is when Goku rolls away and plants his hand on the ground, then pushes off....

... to kick Janemba right in the mush. Cool!

But this new red Jameba is tougher than the previous version, and he still has all the powers he used before, like the portals thing. Goku tries to shoot a ki blast at him...

And he has to dodge his own attack as it’s directed back at him.

Goku seems to be able to hurt Janemba, though, so it’s not a total mismatch...

... Until Janemba starts disassembling his entire body to avoid Goku’s attacks.

I’m not sure why this is more effective than simply moving at super-speed, but it seems to really have Goku stymied.

Also, he can shoot enormous ki blasts out of his mouth. So maybe this is a mismatch after all.

Back at Yemma’s Pikkon’s made some respectable progress on the barrier, but he’s not even close to finished, and he’s got Yemma griping him out the whole time, and Goku’s having all the fun. At least he can take out his frustrations on the barrier.

Here’s one of my favorite shots from the movie. Goku looks trashed here, but he’s not beaten yet. Remember, when he used Super Saiyan 3 before, in the Majin Buu Saga, he explained that it used up a lot of his stamina in the living world. The implication being that it was much more effective in Otherworld, where he couldn’t tire out as easily. So in theory, we’re seeing SSJ3 applied to its fullest potential, and Goku’s still losing. Well, uh, he can still use Super Saiyan 4, right? No, this is Movie 12, we don’t serve that GT crap here.

As Janemba stalks towards Goku he notices an ogre club on the ground and scoops it up. I don’t know why it’s so small, but I assume it belonged to one of the ogres who run things in Hell, like Goz and Mez.

But Janemba can transform the club into an awesome sword. I get the sense that Janemba can do way, way more with his powers than what we actually see, but he just hasn’t figured out what he’s capable of yet. He just figured out the sword thing on impulse.

Goku keeps trying to hang in there, but he’s outgunned now. Every time Janemba slashes the sword, it shoots out a thin wave of ki along the arc of the swing, which cuts anything in its path. So Goku has to dodge the blade as if it’s got an infinite length.

And his best shots aren’t hurting Janemba at all.

Goku tries taking cover behind those jellybean things, but Janemba can just cut through those as well.

The attack is just relentless, and it’s all Goku can do to run away now.

And this leads him in the direction of the blood pond, which is one of the key features in DBZ hell. Somehow, all the blood is now floating in midair in a cone shape. I have to assume that’s another side-effect of Janemba’s powers.

But it’s still fluid, as Goku demonstrates when he falls in.

As he does, he reverts back to his base form, and he doesn’t seem to be able to move or escape. I can’t find any information on the mythology surrounding the bloody pond, but I kind of got the sense that in DBZ, it might act as some sort of means to incapacitate unruly spirits. When the Ginyu Force tries to escape Hell in the Frieza saga, they fall into the pond, and that’s pretty much the end of that. When Cell leads a revolt in Episode 195, Pikkon tosses them all in the pond, then uses Hyper Tornado to pull them back out so he can fling them into the needle mountain. So I got the impression that falling into the pond saps your strength. Of course, Goku could just as easily be worn out from fighting Janemba, so this may be a coincidence. But I sort of wonder if Janemba didn’t herd Goku into this spot just so he could take advantage of the pond.

With Goku apparently helpless, Janemba starts slicing off bits of the cone, which then splash away as normal liquid. I really did this scene, because we can’t see where Goku is inside the pond, so it’s impossible to tell if Janemba has hit him on each stroke.

Finally, Janemba has whittled the cone of blood down to a Goku-sized piece, so the next swing of his sword will surely cut him in two.

I’m not sure whyu Janemba is dragging it out like this, but he is comprised of evil spirit waste, so it’s not like he’s above this sort of sadism.

But then, as Janemba’s ki slice approaches Goku, a ki blast comes from out of nowhere and disrupts the whole thing!

And Goku tumbles out of the blood somehow, which is a lucky break.

But who saved him just now? Who could have saved him?

Who indeed?

#dragon ball #2019dbliveblog #dbmovieliveblog #fusion reborn #the return of fusion!! goku and vegeta #goku #pikkon #king yemma #janemba #vegeta #trunks #goten #adolf hilter #grand kai

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tigerlover16-uk · 7 years ago

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Things I’d like to see in Dragon Ball Super post-universe survival Saga

I just felt like writing down a bunch of random stuff I’d enjoy seeing. Didn’t really think too hard and there’s definitely more stuff I’d like, but I just wrote all this down in a hurry and thought I’d post it for the fun of it. So here’s a bunch of random ideas:

Gohan continuing to be relevant as a top-tier fighter.

Gohan showing off his great saiyaman poses to the Pride Troopers, leaving them in awe and fangirlish glee.

Toddler Pan bonding with Grandpa Goku and starting to learn how to fight.

Krillin and Jaco having a team up episode to try and catch an intergalactic criminal, or break up a crime ring, or SOMETHING space cop related. Come on, Toei, you're sitting on a gold mine here.

A few stories devoted to actively exploring some of the other universes.

Vegeta and Goku spending time actively training Cabba, Caulifla and Kale.

More insight into Kale's character, her backstory, her relationship with Caulifla, basically just give her more fleshing out. Also maybe have her not really be in control of her berserker powers just yet, and give her a character arc with her gradually gaining better control of them over time as she becomes more confident and mentally healthy. There IS good character development to be had here, and it would be a shame not to do anything else with Kale and leave things as they are in the US saga so far, which have had pretty meh results.

Caulifla going super saiyan blue. Just because i want to sit back, sip a coke and laugh at all the elitist fanboys losing their minds. (Seriously though, I'm okay with however she progresses just so long as it feels earned and she continues to be a likeable and entertaining character).

Launch being brought back

Majin Buu playing an important supporting role for at least one saga and NOT falling asleep (Seriously, Toriyama, it was never funny).

More Hit.

Goku and Bergamo, if not exactly leaving on friendly terms, then at least part ways with a mutual respect, and Bergamo acknowleding that he was wrong to hate Goku. Same for Toppo for that matter.

Check up on Gowasu and see how he's coping with everything he's been through these last two sagas and trying to move on and be a better supreme Kai, maybe getting a new non-crazy apprentice. The guy just deserves a break.

Have Raditz be brought back to life to join the Son family. Yeah, i know this sounds like blatant wish fulfillment fanservice, so what, we ALL want to see this happen. Why not. I'd also be happy if they brought Nappa back instead though.

Have Goku go to meet with Grandpa Gohan sometime after the tournament, either in Otherworld or have Baba bring him back briefly. I really want to see these two just talk about everything that's been happening lately and how Goku's life has gone since they last saw each other. Also, let us see more of Goku's thoughts on how he felt knowing he was the one to accidentally kill Grandpa Gohan and have them actually talk that through! I'm still sore his reaction to that was basically a footnote in the Vegeta fight and then just forgotten about afterwards.

A member of Frieza's race that's ACTUALLY good and not just a lying scumbag, like Frost. Seriously, i actually like Frost, but I'd much rather have had an actual good Frieza.

An episode about Dende and Mr Popo's daily duties and interactions.

Krillin's family meeting Android 17's family.

Marron performing a destructo disc. Because don't lie, you all want that as much as i do.

Goten to be relevant to a saga's story, or at least have his own breather episodes.

Same for Yamcha.

A saga set in one of the top 4 universes heavily involving that universes God of destruction in the plot.

Pan helping Baby Bulla to start flying. Because that would be so adorable.

An episode set in the new future timeline checking in on Future Trunks and

Future Mai showing what they're lives are like now.

Piccolo getting a God tier power up and being more useful to big scale conflicts later on in Super.

Mr Satan and Gohan father/son-in law interactions.

More adorable moments with Goku hanging out with Goten.

Beerus and Whis developing a fondness for Baby Bulla and possibly Pan as well.

Android 8 appearance that's not a silent cameo in the future timeline.

Master Roshi making Krillin the new official Master of the Turtle School of Martial Arts at some point.

Puar playing with Marron, Pan and Bulla.

A visit to planet Namek for whatever reason.

King Kai to get his wish to be brought back to life at the end of the series, only to somehow die in another weird accident soon after to his frustrations.

An episode where Majin Buu babysits Pan.

Beerus discovering his namesake and getting drunker than Barney Gumble on Saint Patrick's day. I'd love to see just how that situation pans out.

One of the other universes Gods of Destruction being an antagonist in another saga (Probably Quitela, all things considered).

An episode where the entire cast just decides to hang out at the beach, Goku takes Chichi's telling him to invite everyone too literally and goes about inviting every single friend he's ever made along his adventures, including those from other universes and even getting Whis to contact Future Trunks to show up in his time machine with Future Mai and Bulma.

And, that’s about all I got. Feel free to add your own ideas on what you’d like to see, either serious or joking

#dragon ball super #dragon ball #dragon ball z

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