#i just think nonbinary ppl cant be put in boxes and thats why they can be gay or lesbian

[thehealingsystem]

The problem with multi-gender and nonbinary identities in Gay and Lesbian spaces is honestly more complicated than either side gives it credit for and I think needs to be talked about in a different way? Like the thing is - what we have currently is a system where every sexual preference and form of attraction aside from MAYBE Asexuality and Pansexuality (kinda sorta) are related via the lens of the person's gender. EG: if you are a Lesbian, you are a person who identifies as female, you are only attracted to - people who identify as female. It's a specific definition but it's entirely gender-relative. In order for 'Lesbian' to accommodate people who don't fit within the binary or are on multiple places within the binary, the definition of what a Lesbian IS needs to change to be compatible with that. But the problem with doing that is the definition of ANY identity becomes a lot less meaningful, and homogenizes a LOT of people with very different needs having very different experiences into one group - and makes it really difficult for ANYONE in that group to get any traction on talking about what they need. You have a tonne of people under one label who are experiencing that label in fundamentally different ways, and speaking about the experience of having that identity becomes basically impossible for anyone - because every experience is so radically different that no one can be heard. Which is why I feel like Instead of having less labels with broader definitions, We need more labels that are more specific and allow people to say "This is who I am, this is what I need." At the very least - we need a new lexicon for defining attraction WITHOUT the gender of the person experiencing the attraction being determined up front, it's maybe not WHOLLY relevant to multigender people but it would just be good if Nonbinary people had a way of expressing who they feel attraction for without ALSO having to gender themselves.

Oh yeah I totally get what you're saying. Honestly I'm glad we've been open to nonbinary identity in gay and lesbian spaces but I think the way we've been going at it is completely wrong

About changing definitions - I think regardless of how a specific group of people use it, the general idea of an identity does not need to change. I think the idea of a lesbian being women attracted to women is completely fine, despite nonbinary identities being allowed to be lesbian. I say this as someone who is way less connected to a fem-aligned identity who is lesbian

I don't think these definitions need to be completely rigid, or just have one definition. Honestly lesbian can be a completely personal experience. I've seen someone talk about colloquial vs personal definitions, and how this is relevant to queer labels. I think the IDEA of what a lesbian is, what we normally think of when using the word lesbian, can just stay the same

The thing is with people trying to change the COLLOQUIAL definition of lesbian, things get tricky. "Non-men attracted to non-men" well what is a non-man? Where did this term come from? Are people okay with being grouped by something they're not? Are all nonbinary people non-men? What about people who are women and men? Is it okay to say that lesbian is all about not being associated with men on any level, at the expense of these people's identity and womanhood?

I don't think it's a good idea to erase lesbian as an orientation involving women. Hell, even just "women and possibly nonbinary people attracted to women and possibly nonbinary people" is way better, though that is a mouthful and has its own problems. I think even if we say lesbian is "non-men," our concept of lesbian generally involving women has not changed at all. I've even seen people say non-men is 'typically women,' so all I see is it defeats the point essentially. It's SUPER hard to change a colloquial definition, it will take probably decades or even a century for people to generally see lesbian that way

There is a history of nonbinary, genderqueer, and gender non conforming people in gay and lesbian communities. Nothing is going to change that. But these are also very personal experiences. Allowing those who may not fit the general idea of what a lesbian is to be lesbian doesn't mean that general idea needs to change, just that we should accept that these are not strict boxes we need to put people in, and rather tools for people to help understand and express their experiences.

And not all nonbinary people are comfortable being put under the definitions of gay and lesbian, despite their experiences being seen as falling under it. I think being a nonbinary gay or a nonbinary lesbian is a personal way of being gay or lesbian

And about making new labels, that totally makes sense. People have already done that! I'm sure if I tried I could find the exact label for the specific experiences these people are trying to describe. Some prefer to use those ones and feel they fit them more

The problem lies in that words like lesbian and gay are already popularized and already well understood by most people. It's easier to say that you're gay than to say that you're toric. And there's also that these people have lived experiences that connect to what its like being gay or lesbian - and that asking them to cut themselves off from these experiences is a cruel suggestion to make

I don't think it's fair to say that a man attracted to men cannot be gay, regardless of woman-alignment. I don't think it's fair to say that a woman attracted to women cannot be lesbian, regardless of man-alignment. This is because of the colloquial idea of lesbian being what it is. They can say it's non-men or non-women all they want, but this is just how people have lived their lives. Not everyone is going to align with one strict definition of lesbian, one that is fairly new and puts people in a box. They have lived their lives as this gender identity, and is attracted to this gender identity, so therefore these are the words they describe that with

So how do we fix this issue? I think just allowing nonbinary people to describe themselves how they want based on personal experience is what's key. No making rigid definitions, or a "one size fits all."

Now I see where you're coming from with saying that if there's so many different kinds of people using gay or lesbian to describe themselves, then there's issues with expressing what that specific group needs. That it would be hard to be more connected to each other, or have a one understanding of everyone under that group. And this COULD possibly be an issue, but I also personally think that the reason people use gay or lesbian to describe themselves universally falls under one aspect - a non-straight, marginalized attraction.

I don't see much of a problem with having a lot of diversity under one label, because the basic idea of the label is the same. I think of course, depending on the person, there are things that they can and can't relate to. A trans gay will not have the exact same experience with being gay as a cis gay. An asexual lesbian will not have the exact same experience being lesbian as an allosexual lesbian. A multigender gay will not describe themselves the same way a monogender gay would. And that's okay! There's beauty to find in diverse experiences and new things to learn about other people

TL;DR: We should allow nonbinary people to define their attraction by however fits their personal experience, without trying to change something about the general concept of that label and keep changing it based on more and more personal definitions. We also shouldn't force them to use or make new labels if they dont want to, as it can feel othering or contradicting to their life experiences