#i hope this makes sense im tired im not re-reading before I post whoops

[dufferpuffer]

Absolutely agree with everything said about Snapes intentions. He would beg Voldemort to spare only Lily - because who the fuck is he to ask ANYTHING of the Dark Lord…? But Dumbledore? There is no need to only ask for Lily - and he doesn't. He brings them ALL up.

But I want to bring some things up about how Dumbledore manipulates - and his own intentions. It's often brought up that he is a manipulator - but his actual clearest manipulations are often glossed over, or played off as him being irrational/stupid.

There is nobody he manipulates quite as viciously as he does Severus Snape in these flashbacks. it's so tasty.

Dumbledore Meta Time:

Dumbledore doesn't assume Snape only cares about Lily - only that she is the one most important to him. And he uses that as a weapon. He intentionally steers the conversation back to her and then shoves the high heel of his boot into Severus' throat, to drive the guilt in.

‘If she means so much to you,’ said Dumbledore, ‘surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?' 'I have - I have asked him -‘

He brings up something despicable - and the moment Severus stammers a few words cuts him off. Albus rarely ever cuts anyone off... unless he wants to crush them.

‘You disgust me,’

...he says, when Severus is simply bouncing off the picture HE painted, desperate and stammering.

‘You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?’

A test. He paints another scenario - and DARES Severus to bounce off this one, too. It's not a conclusion he is jumping to. It's a calculated attack.

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore. ‘Hide them all, then,’ he croaked. ‘Keep her - them - safe. Please.’

He passes. Not a confirmation of the scenario, nor a defense of himself - total submission. Good boy, Severus.

The Order is losing. They need their own mole. Albus knows Severus wouldn't be here, meeting a man he was scared might kill him... unless he was incredibly brave and dedicated to something good. He can be used... ...and Dumbledore wants him desperately. Even if it means grabbing him by the throat - for the greater good.

‘And what will you give me in return, Severus?’ ‘In - in return?’ Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, ‘Anything.'

I've seen people try to claim Dumbledore is daft for expecting Severus - a man who has nothing - to be able to give anything but himself. But that was the exact goal...? Make him feel so shit and desperate that he would give himself? Albus isn't saying 'What can you give me? Turn out your pockets, you disgusting cretin.' He is saying 'What WILL you give me? Hm…? Will you be a good boy, Severus…?'

---

I also agree with everything said about how Snape perceives Dumbledore. But what about how Dumbledore perceives Snape?

We see how Albus keeps himself distant from students. He is rarely around, difficult to reach - and in the 70s was:

Running the school to the standards the Board of Governors desires so he is not removed (some of whom may be Death Eaters)

Following Ministry summons (though likely less, as a new headmaster, and without Fudge as Minister)

Leading an illegal secret society of volunteers - gathering information, spying, moles within the Ministry, Fighting… …He's a wee bit busy, basically.

Yet in the 90s he seems to know the names of kids he's likely never been within 2 meters of before. He takes an interest. It'd help that he taught most of their parents, their grandparents - went to school with their great-grandparents...

He'd know Eileen Prince, President of the Gobstones Club, who seemingly disappeared from the Wizarding World - taking her Pureblood name with her. He would know the little boy who arrived hand-in-hand with the Muggleborn whose sister wrote a very cute letter was hers. Connections are important. Keeping tabs on people... special tools that will help him later.

---

Snapes life was threatened in his fifth year - and Albus had to make sure he stayed quiet about it.

"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledores face. […] "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbledore quietly.

(PoA, ch21)

He is going to do it again, 'side with Sirius' (to Severus' view), but he asks, quietly, for Snape to trust him. "I do remember, Severus. I keep that in mind… but please, allow me to speak to the children, for their side." He remembers, and he agrees - or at least, is sympathetic that 'attempted murder' is Severus' reasonable view of things.

Yet as a boy Severus did, indeed, keep quiet about it. He didn't tell anyone what Remus was for the next two years of school. He didn't get Remus and Albus in trouble even when the bullying continued. He didn't tell Lily, though he wanted her back.

While at school, Albus was likely wary of him - he made Lily and James head boy and girl - but knew if he wasn't at least someone who could stick to doing 'the right thing' when the going got tough... he could at least be manipulated with a heel to his throat. :^)

So when Severus comes crawling back with a message of danger… well, Albus has seen that before, and it went rather well last time.

---

Dumbledore certainly see's himself in Snape… but I'm not sure he did at that point in time.

Ariana killed Albus' mother. Accidentally, yes - but he was closer to his mother than his siblings. He had just graduated and wanted to live away from the burning wreck of his family - but because his mother was dead he had to stay behind and look after his sister while his brother finished school.

His wayward, violent, can barely read brother who doesn't seem to wanna do anything… and his useless, basically magic-less sister who is ruining his life... Just because it's the right thing to do. But he was being tempted away: a lover, an intellectual equal, a brilliant young man just like him, who dreams with him…

Ask a 17/18yr old Albus if he would be upset if Ariana died. He'd probably say he'd be relieved. Hell - Aberforth STILL thinks Albus never loved her. Even though he broke his nose at her funeral, and Albus intentionally never fixed it. Scars can be quite handy - at reminding us what we have lost.

The duel was an accident. An argument between teenagers. Gellert wasn't a danger to Ariana, he was attacking Aberforth. She died anyway. Without warning something important was gone. The girl his father died for. The girl his mother spent her life sheltering. His brothers best friend. His baby sister… All because he wasn't dedicated to living for her, dying for her.... like everyone else was.

He was prioritizing his own dreams over the safety of the weak - and that greed for power blinded him.

… That only has obvious parallels to Severus later, in grief. Lily becomes the girl Severus failed to protect, lost to his selfish desires... he should have prioritized her but instead turned away.

But at this very moment…?

Severus is fighting, throwing his own desires away to protect her when she is at her most vulnerable. Foolish, a wayward idiot… but even when he will be far away from Lily he is dedicated to her. Terrified he won't be enough - he has to boldly go and insist Albus understand the gravity of the situation, that Albus does good enough in a matter he might not personally care for.

In this moment, Severus is more like Aberforth. …And maybe the Hogs Head does indeed play a little into that perception.

---

Talking about Albus comparing Severus to himself…

“I thought… you were going… to keep her… safe…” “She and James put their faith in the wrong person,“ said Dumbledore. ”Rather like you, Severus. Weren’t you hoping that Lord Voldemort would spare her?“ Snape’s breathing was shallow. “Her boy survives,” said Dumbledore. With a tiny jerk of the head, Snape seemed to flick off an irksome fly. “Her son lives. He has her eyes, precisely her eyes. You remember the shape and color of Lily Evans’s eyes, I am sure?“ “DON’T!” bellowed Snape. “Gone… dead…”

(DH, ch33)

I get chills about how vicious this is… he's back to stomping on his throat… Laying it on thick. All vegemite, no butter. Pushing all the guilt off of his own shoulders, promising to protect Lily and failing - sliding it onto Severus' plate. Why? Why push so, so hard…? Severus has already lost everything…

“Is this remorse, Severus?” “I wish… I wish I were dead…“ “And what use would that be to anyone?” said Dumbledore coldly. “If you loved Lily Evans, if you truly loved her, then your way forward is clear.”

(DH, ch33)

…If you loved her, truly loved her, your way forward is clear. What use is remorse if you do nothing with it? If you wallow in your desire to die, to be rid of the guilt...? That's a desperate feeling Albus knows well.

"It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again���" […] Dumbledore began to cower as though invisible torturers surrounded him; his flailing hand almost knocked the refilled goblet from Harry's trembling hands as he moaned, "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead…" […] He supported Dumbledore's shoulders and again, Dumbledore drained the glass; then Harry was on his feet once more, refilling the goblet as Dumbledore began to scream in more anguish than ever, "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" […] Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled, "KILL ME!"

(HBP, ch26)

Albus knows exactly what Severus is going through… and he knows the path forwards. What he believes to be the only path, for guilty bastards like them, who get those they love killed:

Snape seemed to peer through a haze of pain, and Dumbledore’s words appeared to take a long time to reach him. “What – what do you mean?” “You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily’s son.” “He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone – ” “The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does.” There was a long pause, and slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, “Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear… especially Potter’s son… I want your word!” “My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?” Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape’s ferocious, anguished face. “If you insist…”

(DH, ch33)

Scum like them can only atone in throwing their lives away for others. They want to die - so in spirit, they are dead. Throwing their dreams away, their choice in what they do in the lives they life, to fight for those who still live… for the Greater Good.

Albus, seeing himself in Severus, is pushing him to follow the same path. The best path - as far as he is concerned. The best of them.

This part of Snape's memories that he gives to Harry has been talked to death, but please indulge me while I dig it back up because meta rests for no man. Emphases in the below excerpt are mine:

The corridor dissolved, and the scene took a little longer to reform: Harry seemed to fly through shifting shapes and colours until his surroundings solidified again and he stood on a hilltop, forlorn and cold in the darkness, the wind whistling through the branches of a few leafless trees. The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone �� his fear infected Harry, too, even though he knew that he could not be harmed, and he looked over his shoulder, wondering what it was that Snape was waiting for - Then a blinding, jagged jet of white light flew through the air: Harry thought of lightning, but Snape had dropped to his knees and his wand had flown out of his hand. ‘Don’t kill me!’ ‘That was not my intention.’ Any sound of Dumbledore Apparating had been drowned by the sound of the wind in the branches. He stood before Snape with his robes whipping around him, and his face was illuminated from below in the light cast by his wand. ‘Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?' 'No - no message - I’m here on my own account!’ Snape was wringing his hands: he looked a little mad, with his straggling, black hair flying around him. ‘I - I come with a warning - no, a request - please -‘ Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other. ‘What request could a Death Eater make of me?’ ‘The - the prophecy … the prediction … Trelawney …’ ‘Ah, yes,’ said Dumbledore. ‘How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?’ ‘Everything - everything I heard!’ said Snape. ‘That is why - it is for that reason - he thinks it means Lily Evans!’ ‘The prophecy did not refer to a woman,’ said Dumbledore. ‘It spoke of a boy born at the end of July -‘ ‘You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down - kill them all -‘ ‘If she means so much to you,’ said Dumbledore, ‘surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?' 'I have - I have asked him -‘ ‘You disgust me,’ said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. ‘You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?’ Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore. ‘Hide them all, then,’ he croaked. ‘Keep her - them - safe. Please.’ ‘And what will you give me in return, Severus?’ ‘In - in return?’ Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, ‘Anything.'

Firstly what stands out here is that that Snape is the first one to refer to Harry and James and not just Lily, not Dumbledore. Snape says, "he is going to hunt her down - kill them all" showing that from the outset he was aware of not just Lily's fate, but her husband's and son's as well. His warning to Dumbledore takes them into consideration too, so from the outset we see that Dumbledore's assumptions are likely biased.

It's Dumbledore who assumes Snape is only thinking about Lily and doesn't care about her family. Although Snape is clearly more invested in Lily, focusing on her as Voldemort's target when he first speaks, he doesn't exhibit the selfish tunnel vision Dumbledore accuses him of. In fact, immediately after Snape says "them all" it's Dumbledore who changes the conversation to be specifically about Lily again. It's understandable that Snape is more concerned about Lily - she's the one he grew up with and was friends with, although it's likely Dumbledore doesn't know this, and may never learn the full extent of Snape's relationship to her, not even to the extent that he shares with Harry in his final memories. Snape refers to her as Lily Evans, not Potter, likely because he's so used to Evans being her name, having spent his whole childhood knowing her by it. His relationship with James was one of victim to abuser, so it's understandable that in this moment of panic and anxiety, James Potter isn't the most important thing in Snape's mind.

It's important to how the dynamics between Snape and Dumbledore play out in this scene that Snape is terrified. He's described as "panting, turning on the spot" and his fear is so palpable that even Harry feels it, though he knows he's safe and in a memory where he can't be harmed. Snape is coming into this conversation out of desperation, and trusting a man who didn't seem to care much when Snape's life was threatened by a fellow student in his fifth year at Hogwarts. To Snape, Dumbledore is the man who let Sirius' prank slide even though it could have killed him. Years after this scene on the hilltop, when Sirius escapes from Azkaban, he still asserts with viciousness that Snape deserved to die just for being too nosy about him and his friends. So to Snape, Dumbledore is the man who let that attempt on his life slide, and who invited Sirius and James - both his attackers, as far as he's concerned - to join the original Order of the Phoenix.

To Snape, Dumbledore is someone who doesn't care if he lives or dies, and who trusts and respects people who, as far as Snape is concerned, are violent and ruthless. This is compounded by the time he's spent in Voldemort's ranks, where's he's seen firsthand what people like that - violent and ruthless - are capable of. He likely sees Dumbledore as a leader who is just as volatile as Voldemort. Since we know that Voldemort doesn't believe in light and dark, good or bad, only in power and weakness, we can assume that Snape has taken on some of these ideas. His perspective may also be informed by his experiences with the bullying of the Marauders, who claimed to hate his proclivity for "dark" magic while perverting innocent spells like scourgify to enact violence (if you've ever tried to eat soap as a kid, you can imagine how vile that might be, let alone if it's blocking the airflow in your trachea). So in Snape's eyes, Dumbledore is probably not the light to Voldemort's dark, but a rival wizard fighting for power, and therefore someone he likely assumes will resort to similar brutality.

As far as Snape is concerned, Dumbledore could strike him dead just for being there. And yet he walks into this meeting, the arrangement of which is already a mortal risk, knowing he might not leave it alive. His first words to the man are, "Don't kill me." Even if he were there just to plead for Lily's life and not care about her family, his willingness to sacrifice himself to save her is already an act of bravery and frankly, I think it's a much more complicated moral dilemma whether one can choose who to give their own life for than Dumbledore's harsh condemnation makes it seem. Can we expect a man to risk his life for a friend? That's a question with a complex and multi-faceted variety of answers. Can we expect him to risk his life for an enemy, or an abuser? That's a long and complex answer with even fewer clear conclusions.

Dumbledore, meanwhile, sees himself in Snape. We see through the HP series, especially in this reveal at the end, how intertwined his relationship with Snape became. We learn that Dumbledore spends his life carrying the guilt and pain of his sister's death and his direct or indirect role in it. It's a pretty common reading of his and Snape's relationship that Dumbledore understood the depth and irrevocability of Snape's regret and guilt firsthand. Knowing all this, it's hard to read Dumbledore's judgment of Snape on the hilltop, and his immediately conclusion that Snape is only interested in protecting Lily - despite warning that Voldemort intends to "kill them all" - as being objective. I read it as Dumbledore projecting his own guilt and anxiety onto Snape in that moment. In addition, as @said-snape-softly pointed out to me very aptly, the prophecy was overheard in the Hog's Head, which is run by Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, adding onto Dumbledore's personal baggage coming out in this moment. Dumbledore's own feelings are loaded and he makes assumptions about Snape's goals and motivations out of his own anxieties about himself.

And Snape lets him. He's been under Voldemort's thumb, a murderous sociopath who throws unforgivable curses around like most people sneeze. He's desperate and terrified and isn't going to argue with Dumbledore. Dumbledore says, "Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?" and Snape replies that he has. But as we've seen already, Snape has included Harry and James and Dumbledore - as the person with all the power and leverage in this conversation - has changed the subject to focus on Lily. Snape is in no position to argue about semantics in this moment. The same way he brought up Harry and James to Dumbledore only for them to be ignored by him, he may have brought them up to Voldemort only for him to react similarly.

Given what we know about Voldemort as a character, once he has decided to go after Harry and not Neville, there's no changing his mind. Any effort made to sway him would fail and only add the asker to the pile of bodies Voldemort leaves in his wake. James and Lily are both targets, because canonically they have defied Voldemort three times and are members of the Order fighting against his cause. Snape may be able to beg for Lily's life - and we see that Voldemort assumed it was because he "desired her" - but James' is almost impossible to argue on behalf of, even if he wanted to. Snape can't claim any intimate connection even if it's a lie, because James is in the Order and enough of an enemy to Voldemort that he was targeted on the basis of Trelawney's prophecy. The fact that Snape went to Dumbledore means that he is asking for Lily's whole family to be protected, not just her. It's not just extra insurance in case Voldemort decides to kill everyone in his path to Harry, it's an effort to save Lily and the people who matter to her as well. Snape knows that Dumbledore will give them a fighting chance where Voldemort won't.

When Dumbledore accuses Snape of not caring if they live or die, Snape says nothing. He doesn't confirm or deny this accusation, and as we've seen, he's terrified and Dumbledore has already twisted his words and judged him, so it's reasonable to assume Snape is worried that if he says the wrong thing, all will be lost. Dumbledore could have just accepted Snape's warning and told him to leave. He could have accepted the warning and asked why Snape gave it. Instead, he jumped to conclusions and threw them in Snape's face, a frightened man risking his life who learned quickly in this conversation that Dumbledore hates him and is judging him, and who learned while still at school that Dumbledore doesn't value his perspective or even his very life.

And then Dumbledore asks him, "what will you give me in return?" Snape is caught off guard, because as far as he knew, he was already doing Dumbledore a favor. He's offering him free information that will enable him to protect two of his Order members when the Death Eaters already outnumber them twenty to one, as Lupin said in OOtP. Again, Snape is risking his life - if Voldemort finds out he had this conversation with Dumbledore, he's definitely dead. As far as he knows, Dumbledore could kill him, as his opening sentence in this scene shows. And yet, Dumbledore turns this around - like the tactical, manipulative military leader he is - and posits the situation as being one in which he's doing Snape a favor by heeding his warning. As if he were choosing to protect Lily and her family for Snape's sake, not his own, and not theirs. Many years later, Dumbledore will ask Snape how many people he's watched die, and Snape answers, "lately only those I could not save." But in this moment on the hilltop, that's already what Snape is doing.