#i get extra defensive over their version specifically because they got SO much unnecessary hate the moment the casting was announced

[hiimjules]

!

I'm absolutely deranged over this sweeney revival and so sad it's closing because I think this might be the only iteration of the show where it's like. very obvious that this version of sweeney and mrs lovett are fucking. like that's pretty clear, right? in most renditions it's played like a largely unrequited thing, with mrs lovett attempting over the course of the show to get sweeney to love her despite the fact that he's utterly uninterested.

that was...that was not the case in this version. and the place where I think that becomes most apparent is actually in "a little priest," because I think this is where the transition takes place. prior to this the 2023 show is playing out broadly the same as usual, with mrs lovett focused primarily on getting sweeney to look at her for more than five seconds while sweeney is plotting his revenge. I'm not sure how annaleigh played it live, since I didn't get to see her take and haven't found any decent (publicly available) clips of her, but sutton made some interesting choices here where she's always got her hands hovering over sweeney but rarely does she actually touch him (this was most apparent to me during "my friends" and "wait"). it was like he was something she desperately wanted to hold but couldn't bring herself to yet. like he (or the tenuous bond between them) was made of glass and she was afraid to break him (and it).

that changes after "a little priest." because for the whole show up to that point, sweeney is, as in every production, completely uninterested in her. he seems to reject her advances, doesn't initiate much if any contact with her, and at most treats her as a business partner. but the second mrs lovett suggests her whole baking-people-into-pies scheme, that seems to change. suddenly he's holding her arms, pulling her into a dance, he grabs her face at one point- it was like this little flash of genuinely visible evil from her (which she normally tries to cover more than he does) suddenly attracts him in a way nothing she'd tried up 'til then had. and sutton as mrs lovett responds to this, and that seemed to be the motive behind her iteration of the character playing up the cannibalism humor and making all these jokes about who they could bake into pies. it's like she's suddenly gotten a dash of the affection from him she's been craving and now she's going to do everything possible to keep him laughing, to keep him focused on her and not the judge.

from that point on in this version of the show, I think they're sleeping together. do I think sweeney ever truly falls in love with her? no of course not, that's entirely against the point of his character. but I do think this version of sweeney has more affection for her than other iterations have. more than any other production I've personally seen, this one presented them as a couple, a real partnership, to the point that "by the sea" reads less as another attempt at seduction and more as a legitimate proposal made from one established sexual partner to the other. (the acting choices here also make it.......................almost impossible that they're not fucking I mean she...there's this whole thing with her feet and his suspenders and it's so funny but there's no way. there's no way they weren't sleeping together, just trust me.) and all throughout that song he reacts with the usual sort of annoyance that you'd expect for the character, but there were a few times I'm sure he smiled a little, I was close enough to see it- and whether that was aaron breaking character a bit or a legitimate acting choice I have no idea- but either way it made him seem a little bit fond of her, even when he was irritated.

some people might not like this, since it does sort of go against what was the original intention in the script, but I think it adds another layer of tragedy to the ending if they were genuinely together. because they were so close. they were so close to having some kind of life together, some kind of happiness that wouldn't ever replace the life sweeney had lost, that wouldn't ever replace lucy or johanna, but it could have been a life. maybe even a nice one (minus the whole murdering-and-baking-people-into-pies thing). but it can't ever be because it was only ever happening under false pretenses. because mrs lovett lied. she almost had everything she wanted, she almost had him, but she could only get it because of that one lie, and she loses it all because of that lie too. and that's ultimately her tragedy.

[theserpentsadvocate]

Alrighty, pick any combination of these for the meme: Dumbledore, Grindelwald, Percival Graves, Hengist of Woodcroft, and Celeborn (I know you said you're not a big fan of his, so this one's extra optional. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on him, though, even if they're negative.)

Sorry it took so long. In my defense, this is long.

Aaaand in my defense about that… yeah, I’ve got nothing, I’m just like this.

Sorry about the lack of Tolkien ranting, it’s mostly meh-ing instead. There’s some ranting in the Grindelwald section, though. XD

Dumbledore

What I like about them

Okay, I love red hair, and Dumbledore in his younger years (like middle age) with his loooong auburn hair and his loooong auburn beard just does it for me a purely aesthetic way. Like I would sit and stare at him for hours.

What I dislike about them

There’s the ordinary list, manipulation and self-righteousness and the Grindelwald debacle, but honestly the biggest thing is Snape. I don’t care honestly what bullshit excuse there was, YOU DON’T EMPLOY ABUSIVE TEACHERS, like if he really has to be at Hogwarts give him some administrative position or some shit.

Favourite moment

The bit after Umbridge fires Trelawney and is trying to kick her out, and Dumbledore tells her that she can fire whoever she wants but she can’t make them leave the castle.

Least favourite moment

His opening line when he meets Harry in the nebulous train station afterlife place makes me cringe a little bit. It’s probably 100% me, but it feels… trite, and uncomfortable, and honestly like something my mom would say, which is probably the real reason why I hate it.

A situation with this character that I want to see explored more

I’d really love to see his relationship and/or interactions with Aberforth explored more. (Not by JKR. She needs to drop HP like a hot potato and MOVE BACK.)

An interesting AU for this character

Somewhere on my computer I have half a rantfic about the premise where Regulus became Dumbledore’s spy instead of Snape, and while it’s 500% about my Regulus feels, there’s some interesting stuff in there about Dumbledore, specifically how the dynamic changes when his spy is someone who has

actually renounced

Voldemort and isn’t just out for personal gain/revenge.

A crossover

I’m really not a huge crossover person, honestly, but I guess it would be interesting to see how he’d fare in Discworld?

OTP (or OT3+ etc…. just… favourite ship)

The only person I really ship him with is Grindelwald, and I’m often ambivalent about that.

Other ships?

Nah.

BROTP

With McGonagall, probably.

NOTP

Dumbledore/Harry. Gag me.

An assortment of headcanons!

-He liked Elphias Doge, but never really considered him the kind of friend that Elphias considered him. Elphias was convenient and pleasant and somewhat in awe of him, but he never really considered them to be on the same level.

Grindelwald

What I like about them

I imagine he was incredibly attractive.

What I dislike about them

Well, there was the part where he thought people like me were second-class citizens who needed to be ruled over by people like him for our own good, so.

Also, Johnny Depp. Ugh.

Favourite moment

When he told Voldemort off. That was epic and really poignant.

Least favourite moment

Ariana Dumbledore’s death is painful to think about.

A situation with this character that I want to see explored more

What did he do in Nuremburg? What exactly led to his… I don’t know, change of heart? Greater self-knowledge? Changed perspective? that he demonstrates when he’s talking to Voldemort? I want to know what kind of introspection happened there.

An interesting AU for this character

Here’s an idea, what if he was played by literally anyone other than Johnny Depp?

A crossover

Yeah, I got nothing.

OTP (or OT3+ etc…. just… favourite ship)

I ship him with Dumbledore sometimes.

Other ships?

Not really.

BROTP

Erm. He doesn’t really interact with anyone in canon aside from the Dumbledores, Bathilda, and Voldemort, so I guess Dmbledore again? Only not. I’m interested in it; I don’t support it.

NOTP

With Voldemort? I’ve never seen it, but I just generally assume everyone gets shipped with Voldemort. Fandom is strange.

No, wait! Grindelwald/Johnny Depp.

An assortment of headcanons!

-He’s blond.

-When he was younger he had a small trim beard.

Percival Graves

I have not actually seen FBaWtFT. I was already kind of done with the extra material by then and I’m still not at a point where I can watch movies with Johnny Depp in them without feeling sick to my stomach (although it’s improved). I will watch it at some point, though.

Hengist of Woodcroft

What I like about them

There’s a lot of room for fanon interpretations.

What I dislike about them

Even before she started This Shit ™, I was always… dubious about Rowling’s extracanonical material - fourteen-year-old Riley was firmly of the opinion that if you didn’t put it in the books, you couldn’t call it canon. (Although obviously it was optional for fans to use.) I still pretty much think that, and sometimes I feel boxed in by interview/extra material canon, which results in a… complicated relationship with characters who are optionally canon. (Full disclosure, I know who he is and that he found Hogsmeade, and I basically ignore everything else.)

Favourite moment

The founding of Hogsmeade is obviously a highlight.

Least favourite moment

???? Did he… do anything else, canonically?

A situation with this character that I want to see explored more

So, how did the founding of Hogwarts and the founding of Hogsmeade coincide? (No, ignore whatever Rowling said.) Did one come first? Was Hogwarts taking advantage of an all-magical town, or did Hogsmeade originate as a sort of wizarding college town? Does one predate the other by a few generations, and how did the development of the latter influence the older institution? If they were at roughly the same time, what were his relationships like with the founders, as a group and individually? If they were more spaced out, how did the founders interact with his legacy, or vice versa?

An interesting AU for this character

Depending on your definition of canon, a bunch of what I mentioned above could be considered an AU. Off the top of my head, erm - oh, I think @iceberg-hootenanny said something about an outer space AU, I could actually go for that. Maybe he’s setting up the first real settlement on Mars or Genesis or Xenon 5 or something.

A crossover

Yeah, I dunno.

OTP (or OT3+ etc…. just… favourite ship)

I have no ships for him until just now, but totally off-the-wall, what if he’s Rowena’s husband?

Other ships?

I usually ship primarily intra-founders pairings, but what the hell, let’s throw Hengist in the mix.

BROTP

Idk, I feel like he could have a particularly jocular commitment to Creating New Things! and Achieving Your Goals! that I also ascribe to certain versions of Godric, so that might go over well.

NOTP

I think my standard NOTP with HP characters who I’ve never heard of ships for is going to be That Person/Voldemort. :) It’s a good catch-all answer.

An assortment of headcanons!

-He had brown hair and a beard.

-Usually carried a staff or walking stick.

Celeborn

What I like about them

Okay, so I generally focus on the fact that he was kind of snippy to Gimli, but let’s be fair here - he apologizes. Especially given the depths of Elf-Dwarf racism (and don’t get me wrong here, in their long and complicated history it is my firm opinion that the Dwarves got the worst of it and the Elves are more at fault) and his personal unpleasant experiences, that’s not a small thing.

What I dislike about them

Honestly - and I’m fully prepared, if not resigned, to be crucified for this - I almost exclusively find the Sindar really boring.

Favourite moment

Again, probably that apology.

Least favourite moment

I’ve always found the extended goodbye scene with the swan boat kind of unnecessary and boring, tbh. *wince*

A situation with this character that I want to see explored more

What the fuck was he doing during the whole Fourth Age after Galadriel left? When did he eventually go to Eressea? He did eventually go to Eressea, right?

An interesting AU for this character

It’s not an AU, per se, but it would be interesting to see his reactions to whatever was going to happen in Return of the Shadow.

A crossover

With Sesame Street. :)

OTP (or OT3+ etc…. just… favourite ship)

I’m boring and like canon pairings, insofar as I’m invested.

Other ships?

Are there other ships with Celeborn? I’ve actually never seen any.

BROTP

I’m tempted to say Mablung, but that’s essentially because I will shoehorn Mablung into any fucking content I can manage. I guess Gandalf is the obvious choice? (Can I say Galadriel? I think the non-romantic aspects of their relationship might be interesting, insofar as I’m interested.)

NOTP

Someone inform me what the non-canon Celeborn ships are; I don’t know any.

An assortment of headcanons!

-He used to hang out with Luthien. They weren’t super close, but they were low-key buddies.