#i do think that abuse and toxic relationships are interesting things to explore in media

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

the problem with catradora is not that they are toxic. it's that the toxicity is heavily romanticized.

[azelmaandeponine]

I enjoy exploring different kinds of relationships in media and analyzing it, it makes me think and reflect. When I first saw the whole Bill and Ford thing it interested me.

There were definitely interesting takes on it in the fandom at the beginning, but now it’s expanded so much and become so popular I feel like the point has been lost.

Firstly, the widespread romanization of it sets me off. Maybe it was just me (?) but I thought it was understood that even though it was a “ship” and the “point” of it was that it’s toxic… I dunno. I have observed the abuse is either overlooked or romanticized, and both bother me. Because if you really stop to think about it for more than a minute you realize how absolutely awful and horrifying it must have been to endure that situation.

And I am of the perspective that wanting to explore these relationships is not a bad thing. It is complex, it can be interesting. You can learn a lot about the characters and how they think, process the world, view themselves, their relationships with other characters– and sometimes even yourself. But unfortunately a lot of that nuance can get easily lost and thought I don’t doubt there are some very interesting things out there that take the time to do that, in the more widespread fandom it gets oversimplified and lost.

Don’t even get me started on those who think they should reconcile/get back together. Maybe they don’t know how it’s like to be in an abusive relationship, but getting back in contact with a person who was abusive in your life is an awful idea. Even if the person HAS actually genuinely changed (which… yeah I don’t know about you but I cannot see Bill changing in any significant way that would even make this an option) for the sake of the others sanity and ability to move forward in life.

I really like Ford, as someone who is autistic I see myself in him. I know a lot of people don’t like Ford (for some reasons more valid than others). But regardless- on the subject of his past relationship with Bill, the amount of victim blaming is baffling. It’s giving “they were mutually abusive” kind of thing. Like yes, we can point out, even criticize how it probably isn’t a good idea to recite ancient enchantments outloud, or whatever you wanna point out. But I actually don’t care what he did to get himself in that situation. He was vulnerable, tricked, taken advantage of and mistreated (to put it lightly). This guy is in your MIND, in your head- literally! Not only did he psychologically torment him, mess with his literal thoughts and memories, hurt his body. I cannot imagine how badly that can mess you up. Now imagine after all that, after literally killing the guy, he’s like… Sixer come back. Even if he had changed for the better (which he has NOT like i said before) why would you want to associate yourself with someone who hurt you (and others!) so badly. And even if some codependent part of you did want it back, I’d argue that’s even more of a reason to stay away because that can only lead to things getting worse.

I’m not going anywhere else with this anymore, just a rant. Thanks for reading lol

You're welcome.

And I agree. I DO think the abusive nature of their relationship deserves exploration, and it IS canon Ford was abused by Bill. Explore that. Explore Ford's trauma. Explore how he heals from that.

It's when people act like it's a cute romantic ship, or boil it down to "toxic/mutually toxic"...like no. It is straight up horrifically abusive, with Bill as the abuser and Ford as the victim. Reading Journal 3 was unsettling in regards to Bill and Ford's relationship because of the abuse.

Reading TBOB was terrifying because of the abuse and torture. I was legitimately afraid for Ford during...certain parts...of TBOB. And TBOB is, you know, a book.

I can't imagine what it would be like to actually live through an experience like that.

And yet people continue to victim blame Ford, and it makes me want to pull my hair out. The way people victim blame Ford because he summoned Bill despite the vague cave wall warnings is just basically them going "you were warned he was bad news, so it's your fault for dating him in the first place". I think we all agree that's a horrible thing to say to a domestic violence victim. And given that Ford's relationship with Bill has been paralleled in canon to an abusive relationship, the same can be applied here. It's a terrible thing to say about Ford, who was literally abused by Bill. Abuse is never the victim's fault.

And yeah, getting back with your abuser is NEVER a good idea.

And while people CAN change, Bill shows no desire to. That was...pretty obvious in TBOB. He refuses to change, so I really don't see him as redeemable.

Honestly the fandom's victim blaming of Ford is giving me flashbacks to the BMC fandom and NOT in a good way.

[masochist-marmot]

In defence of "problematic" ships

CW: references to abusive relationships

There seems to be a growing mindset in fandom spaces that a ship is not valid if it's somehow problematic. Interestingly, the criticism towards a ship is rarely formed as "I don't like it"/"it makes me uncomfortable". Instead, they often attack the shipper with a "you must enjoy being abused and will end up being killed by your partner" or whatever.

Can we not?

First of all, and I'm so sorry to break it to you, but these characters are not real people. They have been constructed to serve a narrative. And seeing an interesting dynamic on the screen/page/whatever and thinking it's worth exploring does not mean you want to be inserted into that situation, nor does it mean that you endorse it in real life. It makes me wonder if these people even understand what fiction is for. I've had my share of toxic relationships, and I'd rather not get into another one. So it's a good thing that I can explore these dynamics safely without putting myself in danger.

And before you bring up the danger of romanticising abuse, I get it. There's plenty of media out there that depicts abuse and toxicity as somehow desirable qualities, and I understand that media can reflect and influence the audience's worldview. This is where you pause for a second, put on your media literacy goggles, and try to see what's actually being said. Depiction does not equal endorsement. Also, shippers are usually just existing in their own spaces and not affecting the wider public in any way.

Secondly, I see a lot of variations of "these characters are not in love because they are not good to each other". Hello? Are we seriously going to claim that romantic feelings only exist in their most pure, uncomplicated, healthy form? Interestingly enough, these sentiments are usually applied to queer ships. When Honkai: Star Rail dropped an animated short containing a prolonged and incredibly sapphic dance scene that ended in Black Swan being mentally (though unintentionally?) violated by Acheron, I saw so many comments along the lines of "I thought it was pretty gay until the mental flaying happened". I mean, it's still pretty gay. Just because you don't think it's healthy, doesn't mean it stops being queer. Are we just that afraid of showing problematic queer representation? We are people, and our relationships will be messy, and I think it's okay to show that. Though once again, I'm aware that for a long time it was all that could be shown, and that wasn't great either. I just feel like the pendulum has swung a bit too much towards the other end.

I've also seen a lot of comments to the effect of "he said he hated him so your ship is invalid". I will excuse these comments if you're on the autism spectrum and have difficulty reading past the literal meaning of words, otherwise, let's dig up those media literacy goggles again. In the next paragraph I'm going to vehemently defend my beloved akeshu, so massive spoilers for Persona 5 Royal.

In his confidant rank 8, Akechi says to the protagonist, in no uncertain terms: "I hate you." And the next time you see him alone, he shoots you in the head (it's complicated, okay?). So you could take this and run with it and go bash akeshu shippers over the head with it. Or you could try to analyse his actions and motivations over the course of the entire game and come to the conclusion that his hatred is a shorthand for a bundle of complicated emotions. Morgana even picks up on it after you fight him later in the game: "You don't really hate Joker, do you?" What Akechi actually feels is admiration and jealousy, since he feels that the protagonist has been handed everything he himself had to work so hard for. It's companionship for his first ever friend and respect for a worthy rival who will rise up to all of his challenges. It's regret that he couldn't have met Joker earlier in life when his master plan wasn't already in motion and his only driving force in life. All of this bundles up in something the emotionally stunted teenager can't and probably doesn't want to unpack, and he settles on what's both very simple and familiar to him: hatred. Which he probably latches onto so that he's capable of putting a bullet in the head of the only friend he's ever had. I could (and honestly, probably will) rant about Akechi on other occasions, but I'll leave it here for now. The point is: If the best you can muster for invalidating a ship is this, I honestly don't feel like I have to listen to your opinion.

Just to be clear, I don't think you need to go find the justifications for your ships in the actual text. In this rant I've mostly brought up ships that stem from how the characters interact in canon. (Though oddly enough, queer ships tend to be subjected to this kind of scrutiny way more than straight ones.) But sometimes it's fun to explore the most unlikely relationship dynamics by shipping characters who barely even interact. They're not what I find personally interesting, but go off. You will never find me gatekeeping ships. Even if it's Hisoka/Gon, in which case you're free to do your thing but I hope I'll never see it.

TLDR; I'm sick of people attacking each other over problematic ships. The characters aren't real, you can't hurt their feelings. But I am, as hard as that may be to grasp sometimes.

[inbarfink]

Concept: Revolutionary Girl Utena ‘Shock Treatment’ AU

…………..Okay, I know how Silly it sounds but just… hear me out, okay?

Takes place entirely inside an institution closed off from the outside world, a kinda surreal place representing the way society is constructed by artificial ideas from stories and media (Fairy Tales in RGU, Television in ST) 

Ruled over by a smarmy over-controlling ridiculous asshole, who seemingly spends most of his days just sitting in his Thematically Appropriate Office atop this false world and smirking evilly. On some level he represents the Ideal Masculinity of [Shoujo Anime/America in the 1980’s] taken to a horrible logical extreme

Who spends most of his time victimizing his sibling, trapping them, putting them in a situation where they are robbed of their agency and in the ‘care’ of people eager to abuse them. Most people around them don’t care because they see that kind of abuse as normal in this societal context, and because the sibling is already considered kinda socially unacceptable within this world

(With bonus Birdcage symbolism.)

And is also trying to seduce the sibling’s love interest, convincing her that she is the hero who is saving the sibling but actually using her as a pawn in the scheme to victimize them 

While also manipulating and molding her into whatever his concept of an ‘ideal woman’ is.

And also…

Cars (and more specifically convertibles) flip-flopping between just status symbol for the empty [toxic masculinity/consumerist] culture our characters are trapped in

And a symbol for freedom (and probably also sex).

Fan-favorite characters who only exist to put on a show that’s thematically connected to what the main characters are going through. 

"Is this symbolism or just a way to save on budget?" you ask, as if these are mutually exclusive options

And of course, Evil Therapists!

So yeah, I think there’s something there. There’s something to work with in there…

(And yeah, just in case someone brings it up, both ‘Shock Treatment’ and ‘Revolutionary Girl Utena’ have incest. But like… what RGU does with its exploration of incestious relationships and what ‘Shock Treatment’ is…. Trying to do is so vastly, thematically Different that it feels kinda disrespectful and missing the point to draw such a frivolous comparison between them)

At first I thought it would be Weird to have Nation McKinley as Mamiya Chida considering…. The most notable thing about Mamiya Chida is that he was actually Anthy in disguise.

But actually, the more I thought about it, the more I decided it’s actually perfect. Like…. What is more Anthy Himemiya than being both the poor little sapient McGuffin victimized and robbed of narrative agency despite being the center of, like, 85% of all character motivations in the story while also at the same time secretly being one of the Big Bad’s right hands, acting as a key player in this scheme that will do nothing but cause Utena and especially herself pain and drive them both apart?

[goobleck0]

hi okay a friend sent me a twitter post of yours and i just HAD to send you an ask. im not gonna say my account but i personally identify w/ the profic label and am active in the proship community, so ignore my ask if you'd like, but i am genuinely just. so curious.

in the post im referring to, you say that you wish that portraying toxic and/or abusive relationships in fiction wasn't stigmatized by proshippers writing about them with sexual intent, because they are extremely interesting to explore. but i'd like to inform you that that actually is what proshipping is! and especially profic. i consider proship as more of an anticensorship identity than anything else - ship and let ship, live and let live, write and let write.

of course, many do write sexual things w/ those relationships, but i don't see why that's a bad thing. i assume that you mean that profic writers writing about sexual concepts poisons the public perception of these abusive relationships, but i don't think that's a fair perspective. puritans will always be puritan, no matter what you are doing. you can't appeal to them enough to be good enough for them - you just have to be yourself.

if you just generally see writing something for sexual gratification bad, then i can't agree at all. that would be a very puritan perspective and actively harmful to free speech and the freedom to write what you desire. and, really, THAT is what proshipping is. it just so happens that many people desire writing things with sexual themes. that's just how people are - sexual themes are interesting in the same way that dark themes are, as a facet of the range of human experience. it might surprise you to learn that a lot of my fellow proship/profic writers who write about sexual themes are actually asexual themselves, and I am on the asexual/aromantic spectrum.

also, i too am autistic, and i too have a fascination with exploring dark themes in media. i consider myself an academic, and i want to become an author in the future. the things that i write now are dark fiction, and they would be considered "proshipping" because they portray dark ships. i never intend to stop writing what i do. i intend to continue writing dark fiction, and to publish it, even if it includes sexual themes, because that is contained within the spectrum of human experience and i believe it is incredibly important to portray. in fact, that would be a necessity to include in stories of many abusive relationships, which often contain degrees of sexual abuse.

if you want to post this, go ahead. if you just read it, that's fine! if you want to reply to it privately you can dm onthelamby and they can put u through to me

I wasn't going to (seriously) respond to this initially, but I agree with most aspects of your take here.

I am a huge on anti-censorship and free speech, always have been. and, I would even consider myself "proship", if the label still meant what it did during its early days. I love to see the portrayal of taboo topics in writing and other forms of art, especially by other victims. but, a lot of the proship community today has made itself into something else entirely, I fear.

as you said, you're profic yourself. and being in the community, it's very difficult to see how it is seen by outsiders. a lot of the proship community that is seen by antis are shotacon, pedos, and things of the like, I don't know the terms... I will give it to you that these people give your community a horrible wrap. the content that these people consume and produce are so damning and make genuine, educational and interesting dark-fiction hard to find for people like me that are into exploring the topics at hand.

I will never be against exploring taboo topics in media, fics where abuse happen, explicit or not, can AND SHOULD be in the mainstream. something like lolita (Vladimir Nabokov), for example, is exactly what I'm talking about, even if this work was misconstrued as something praising the topics at hand. that is what I like to see, that is what should be read and spread around! however, a lot of what I see nowadays are less like lolita and more pornography.

I am not against pornography, but that is not a media that should not explore serious topics. browsing ao3, I often see fics where characters are just abused for no reason other than the idea of the abuse being sexy. that is something I will never, ever support. that is where the stigma comes from, works that explore dark topics in such a way that promote, endorse, and support them.

several people in this community stay in their eco-chambers where they only dig themselves deeper into their trauma by consuming and creating meaningless, nothingburger abuse pornography. I want art, I want things that create a message and spread awareness. I don't want content that purposefully gives even one person the idea that these topics are erotic.

I'm sorry if I repeat myself in this, I don't normally lock in this hard on discourse posts, lol...

[ultfashionista]

but the stance you’re describing as yours is literally proshipping ….sure some proshippers make everything rainbows and glorify pedophilia or whatever but there’s people who do that in every part of every fandom. “ship fucked up things and explore dark themes” is like. the keystone of proship I fear? you are proshipping????

oh i guarantee u 90% of self identified pro shippers do NOT care abt the themes behind that shit they just think it’s cute and/or hot. anyway interacting w “dark themes” is like . normal media interaction. esp when the media in question is centred around murder/abuse/cycles as so many of my interests are. like. in what world are you consuming things like dgr without exploring the darker themes of it. thats the whole POINT. you cannot separate junko and her dynamics with the characters from dgr. her relationships ARE danganronpa she IS danganronpa. which is why she’s my fave character and why i like writing about the dynamics she has w ppl, and how they can be incredibly fucked up and unhealthy for both participants.

basically this boils down to your point seeming to be that having an interest in darker topics in media/characters is inherently proship? which is just like…. not true. its the same vibe as when someone says “i want a show where the characters are happy all the time and theres no conflict” like . thats not a show. nothing HAPPENS there. manipulation and violence and toxicity happens between characters in shows and it doesnt make you proship to acknowledge it or analyse it. it’s plot. that’s what it’s THERE for

[my1interspatial2corner]

Introductions

Who are we?

We are a co-owned account, consisting of two people. We post about whatever fandoms we're interested and the content we want to see. Requests are open, but it’s not a 100 guarantee we’re going to do them. Generally this account was also created out of spite of seeing characters so badly miss characterized in head cannons but we digress

What type of things will we post/accept requests for?

basically whatever we really are interested in, nsfw, fluff, things like that. We’re veering in the side of not writing or accepting toxic dynamics or romanticizing toxic or abusive behaviors, and we very much are probably going to stick more to canon personality anyway. Au’s are something we would probably be interested in, but that’s to be explored down below.

Do we have a post schedule?

Nope! This is done on our own personal free time, and is done mostly as a hobby/out of spite. We could post twice or thrice a week and then ghost this for like a month, but in short, No, there’s no rhyme or reason to our schedule.

How do we know who’s posting what?

This isn’t in our previous posts (however they might be edited later to include this,) but we’re going to sneak small pngs of Laios or marcille to differentiate lol

Personal Introductions

YO!!! I’m Owen, and I’m represented by laios autism™ just bc

I use He/Xe pronouns and identify as a boy, and I’m incorrectly most fandoms you can think of ranging from DDLC, dsmp, mha, MLP, and voltron among other things.

Now as for what I usually will post!!

I’ll mostly be posting head canons and small drabbles alongside character rants and theories

I won’t write many oneshots, considering I don’t consider my writing good enough

THEORIES!!!

And requests ;

I will take anything and I mean anything from the dirtiest smut, to gore, fluff, and such. I probably won’t take requests for toxic relationships and romanticizing abuse, I might still take them sometimes, and I’m generally meh with yandere HCS

I will take Au requests!! If you’ve ever wanted an au of yours given headcanons, send a request asking for me with details!!!

As for interactions… INTERACT!!!! I LOVE seeing your comments and reposts!! Makes the tism go brrr

Hihi! I'm Sun and I'm represented by marcille cuz Laios and marcille are best platonic duo (real)

Also cuz she's so silly muehehe

I go by she/her pronouns and I identify with the female gender. As for fandoms? Oh boy, I have a long list (do not ask me which I've actually consumed the official media tho), ranging from MHA, Harry Potter, love and deepspace and so on!! If you asked me to make a list I would just forget about everything and everyone so it's an ask and find out.

What I will most likely post!

Headcanons, rants and drabbles cuz yes!! These are fun to write

Oneshots, Smaus and maybe even fanfics. If I get the random ADHDer urge to create something :^]

^^ Most of these are gonna be fluff

For requests:

If it interests me, I'll make it! From nsfw to fluff!! But I will most likely not take angst and toxic behaviors, yanderes are (high-key) a big no-no for me. I just don't get the appeal and I won't force myself to write it out lolz

I love alternative universes and all of that jazz too! Send me any underrated cutie pies my way!! I'll love to write them fr

Also is it a good time to say I love any kind of interactions?? Don't be afraid to comment or repost with tags, it makes my ADHD brain to brrrbrbebeb

shoutout to our bestie boo boo bear SPIDERMAN🕸️🕷️‼️‼️

[mrsnancywheeler]

Okay so there's a difference between romanticizing something and just writing about it. You can write about litterly anything even if that is dark topic because that's apart if the storyline and you are just writing a perspective of it. The official definition of romanticising something is to " think about something or describe something as being better or more attractive or interesting than it really is" kinda of like promoting it. However writing about a serious topic doesn't necessarily mean your romanticizing it. Because it is not okay to be promoting things such as abusive relationship, ed, sh etc, but you can write about them as long are your not implying in anyway that, that is a good situation.

Sorry for the poor spelling I'm dyslexic😭 I tried. Hope this clears some things up for the aron. We are all still learning and that's okay just be respectful :)

^^^

authors have creative liberty and the right to explore different things in that writing. I'm not saying it's okay or that it's good, I'm exploring my own ideas through a creative outlet. and the only way that it would ever be implied to be "okay" is with an unreliable narrator and you're not supposed to trust an unreliable narrstors views on the story as correct, but that's a different story completely.

anyway we just need to bring back media literacy and critical thinking as deeper than, "those are toxic dynamics in fiction, the author must be promoting this type of relationship" because in no way do I think that's okay, it's just an idea I'm exploring.

[piracytheorist]

What's your hot take opinion on Sxf ?

Oh boi this is probably gonna upset a lot of people and even some mutuals but. I don't think Damιanya will be canon.

And look, this comes from how I view fiction. I adore looking for Author's Intent, and that can include both positive and critical analysis. By that I mean, I like taking a work of fiction and analyse characters and scenes and gestures etc., but also, if you give me a work of fiction that is written from a bigoted point of view, I can spend hours looking into all the ways the author inserted their bias and political views into it.

That is to say, most of the time I'm not into "fixing" stuff or imagining ways a work of fiction can go according to how I would like it to go. Hence why most of the fanfic I write is mostly character and dynamic exploration rather than AUs and canon divergence that ignores canon stuff I didn't like. Not that I find it wrong to do that, everyone enjoys fiction and creates derivatives of that in their own way. But to make sense of my post here, I needed to present how I work when I consume media.

So. I am asexual, most possibly also aromantic, I can count on one hand the times I shipped a fictional couple, and I cringe every time a film or show that's not in the romance genre has the male and female lead become a couple, cause god forbid they go through an Experience™ together and keep things platonic.

Anyway, people are free to ship what they want to ship, and I'm in no way an impartial judge or the ultimate analyst, but I don't believe Anya and Damian will become a couple, even if they're aged up. Part of that comes from the fact that in well-written fiction everything happens for a reason. The reason I believe Twiyor will be canon is because it will give Twilight the experience of a real romantic relationship after having to fake those for his missions, and it can give Yor confidence in a relationship whether she's openly intimate or not.

If Anya is paired with Damian, I can see how it can help Damian have narrative development, but how will it help Anya? What is her character missing that a romantic relationship with him can provide? And if the relationship only provides development for him, then it will be unbalanced and maybe even one-sided as far as the narrative is concerned. And Anya deserves better than that. Her dynamic lies with her parents (especially when it comes to identity reveals), Bond (with her ability to see the future through him and her becoming more responsible through taking care of him), Becky (a friend that makes her feel confident to be herself and whom Anya can help open up), and whenever Endo decides to take it there at some point, the scientists who practically created her and her powers.

I'm not saying Damian will only be a hurdle and a burden to her. But honestly, she has way more dynamics and stuff going on about her for the story to force her into an "I can fix him" narrative with her bully.

And when it comes to Damian... I honestly think he has more to earn if they DON'T become a couple especially after Anya finds out about his feelings for her. Damian is growing up rich, privileged, and neglected, so he's turned into a brat and a bully who thinks is above everyone and everything. He needs (and deserves) physical affection and compassion, but he also needs to know he can grow from his toxic behavior. Fixing him of that and immediately throwing him into the relationship he craves is, frankly, an easy pass. It's not a romantic relationship, or even close friendship he needs. It's familial affection and connection. The former might help but it won't fix the issue. Again, that's very biased of me because I was bullied by kids like Damian when I was little, so the thought of me becoming interested in them after all the abuse because "they got fixed" is... unwelcome, to say the least :)

And all that's putting aside the fact that they're fucking six years old. Anya probably younger than that. But even if they're older and suitable for a romantic relationship, it's still not something that can, narratively, bring them what they need.

In my view, making Damian have a crush on her is not to lead them into a romantic relationship (at a later point because again, they're SIX) but it's to give him depth and a layered dynamic with Anya besides Anya wanting to approach him for the sake of Operation Strix. Endo made things so Anya has a lot of hurdles on her way towards that, and a spoiled bully who is fighting his own feelings for her out of spite and ends up bullying harder is only part of those hurdles.

Eventually, how I think their dynamic will go is Anya finding out about his feelings, going like "Oh that makes sense but I don't see you that way" and Damian accepting that, while he grew into a more respecting person who doesn't burst out his frustrations on innocent peers, his reward for that won't be the romantic relationship he wants, because hey, there shouldn't be a "reward" for actually becoming a decent human being :) And they stay friends who support each other.

Ending this by saying everyone is free to ship what they want to ship and that this is only my view that is influenced by my lack of interest in romantic stories and my still-prominent scars from having been a bully victim for years. I only watch the anime, but the setup I've seen in the story is enough for me to consider that this is where their dynamic will go. You might disagree and that's okay, the cool thing in fandoms is people being able to offer different points of view, but please don't reblog this just to have pointless fandom fights with me.

[twist3dserenity]

hello, I am a darkshipper/Proshipper. I saw your post asking about proshipping and I'd be glad to share my experiences and thoughts with your questions. (Please mind I tend to ramble a lot so excuse me for that if my message it's too long) So, to answer your questions;

---

1... What does proshipping (other associated label) mean to you? What do you think proshipping means/is about?

For me, Proshipping means: Anti harrasment/In favor of problematic ships or media. I believe any kind of ship or media, including problematic ones, should be allowed to exist solely inside fiction and only fiction.

Us prosshippers mind our own business, we might not like certain tropes but the deal is that we won't go our way to harass the ones who make those certain tropes we don't like. Its simple as that. Proship is a stance, not dark shipping or comshipping, just a stance/belief. Not the shipping itself.

Also a common myth told by antis is that, "Proshippers DONT believe fiction affects reality!!"- this isn't true at all. Proshippers DO believe fiction affect reality but not on a 1:1 scale. (To put it simply: fiction can affect reality ONLY if you don't know how differentiate both things. Meaning, if you don't know the difference between fiction and reality, of course it's gonna affect you and the way you think..)

Us proshippers don't condone this fictional problematic stuff in Real life. we just understand how fiction works as an outlet and a space for fun and whimsy and joy for those who are excited about their favorite tropes. As long as they don't harm anyone IN REAL LIFE, why should we go after them...?

and now, for Darkship or "Darkshipping" it's obvious definition means, extremely problematic and taboo things that'd be considered illegal in real life. Including, incest, minor x adult, abuse x victim (toxic relationships), etc. However, this tropes are obviously just meant to stay in fictional settings whether its for an outlet or simply exploring dark media and I don't agree with these tropes IN REAL LIFE.

--

2. (If comfortable going into detail) why do you believe in this label / What lead you to this belief?

I believe in the proship label because it makes a lot of sense to me. I understand if people tend to get disgusted by problematic pairings but I don't find it reasonable to go after those people who make those certain pairings (like antis). However, if that person who makes those certain pairings DID harm a REAL child or person, then I would understand coming after them.

But aside of all that, I've never understood this logic that <just because you indulge in a certain "trope" you immediately are "supporting" that trope in real life!!> (like antis think). That's like saying playing violent games immediately makes you a killer💀🙏

I was never an anti to begin with, i tried to act like anti and their mindset but it never felt logical to me. I didn't know about this ideology of proshipping until much later, and ever since then, I sticked with it.

And for Darkshipping, I found out about this label after I realized my whole entire life (since I've been in fandoms) I've been shipping yandere x victim tropes, one sided-obsession, stalker x victim, etc. (YES and I still do), and when I realized how much it matched the darkshipping definition, I came into terms that I indeed, had "problematic interests". Obviously in fictional setting.

The main reason I decided to stick with this label it's because I simply just felt like it connected to me. I darkship because I use it as a coping mechanism.

--

3. did you use to be an anti? How did the controversy surrounding this belief affect you personally?

like I said before, no. I never was anti to begin with. Yes, I did try to adapt to their mindset and all, but deep down it just felt wrong and never understood the logic behind it. This belief led me to feel a lot of low self esteem and shame to myself because I geniunely believed their words that <"I was supporting these things in real life and that I am a bad person for it and should go to hell for it"> It's really much, in my own experience, a toxic mindset.

It affected me because Darkshipping it's my way of coping. Not everyone has the same coping mechanisms, but Darkshipping truly has helped be aware of my own trauma and how to deal with it... it's hard to explain cause I don't wanna go to detail about it.. but for a long time It just felt so wrong because of the amount of anti ideology I was surrounded with, I geniunly thought i was a bad person.

--

4. Has being a proshipper positively affected your life? Or so, how?

Yes, both proshipping and darkshipping.

Proshipping because their stance and belief of fiction just feels like less judgemental and less toxic. (Yes we have to be aware that some people who use the proship idelogy in the proship community, will use it to be creeps, but there's also creeps in the anti community. ) and there's barely any proshippers like that. We just see fiction as a space for freedom and not as a space for purity and whatever antis want it to be.

Darkshipping, has helped me a lot positively. This answer might be controversial and that's fine if ppl don't agree with it, but it's my TRAUMA and my FEELINGS and nobody has the right to tell me how to cope with it. I have a therapist and she agrees with my ways of coping.

As someone who used to be in both sides of a toxic relation, I've learned how to treat others better and have healthy attachments, and how to let others treat me better and have self-respect with myself. Darkshipping is both an outlet and way of realizing things about my trauma. And Proshipping is simply a stance I totally stand by it.

It has helped my mental health and the way I see myself better, because I know it's just a way cope and nothing else. After all, I keep it to myself, it's fiction, and I have common sense to differentiate both reality and fiction.

Thats all I wanted to say, thanks for listening to my yaps, I hope this clarified things better, English is not my first language and stuff. So, yeah, bye bye and stay strong 👋👋

thank you for sharing your experience with me! So far all these responses I’ve been receiving here have been so enlightening and educational for me and I’m honestly glad I was able to learn more about it.

i wish you luck on your future endeavors!

[onewomancitadel]

I would also take antis (and anybody who wants to have a serious conversation about the relationship media and literature have with society) a lot more seriously if they didn't do shit like call Reylo variously incest, paedophilia (Rey is 19 and Kylo is 27), analogy to domestic abuse, etc. Like if you're suddenly defining these things as things that they're actually not, you've lost the ability to talk about actual measureable 'harm' or what are precipitators of 'bad behaviour'.

Like, a girl found 'fanfic' her brother had written about her (this was on Reddit, so it's possible it wasn't real, but the comments were definitely real) and a bunch of people who were upvoted said it was just his 'fantasy' and tried to write it off. It's an extreme example, and even more extreme because it's an online community giving advice, but clearly there is a point where the proshipping position lets up and this is what I'm trying to demonstrate - a family member writing erotic fanfic about his sister is too far and is a serious warning sign. But equally any sort of nuance is lost in the anti debate, and the anti debate wants to move right to censoring AO3 without even knowing the stuff that gets posted on sites with predominantly male userbases. This isn't whataboutism, I think it just demonstrates what their motivations are.

I think about this a lot because I do care about the depiction of ideas in media and literature and how those convey our social concerns... I was musing last night on Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights and how a majority of online discourse surrounding those novels is that the romances are regressive and toxic. Yet to me what is urgently concerning in interacting with those texts is the inseparable racism, from Rochester's imprisoned wife to the racist pseudoscientific physiognomy to Heathcliff's 'dark-skinned gypsy' (it's a slur against Romani people) nature. I don't think that is any reason to discard the texts at all, I just think it's interesting that an urgent issue of moral division focuses on the romance (because that's where the modern 'toxic romance' discourse is interested) rather than the materially concerning things is very, very telling.

Separately with Heathcliff I think it's very interesting that the 'sad white boy' trope of the Byronic hero is really not... a sad white boy trope. Heathcliff is best known as one of the archetypal Byronic heroes and you can't read his relationship to Cathy without being cognisant of the manner of his adoption and the way his physical appearance is married to, and realises, the othering of the Byronic hero in the story (and Cathy's by virtue) and the impossibility of their union and the torture of it. Isn't it telling that a deeply tortured literary figure explores actual... social and physical alienation?

For the record, I'm not a literature major, I've never read any professional criticisms of the Brontës so these are just my impressions. But, it was impossible for me to read the description of Jane's facial features and how those reflected her spirit without thinking of how that contrasted to Rochester's imprisoned wife, Bertha Mason, whose mother was Creole and similarly to Heathcliff is implied to be mixed race (and that her madness is potentially a consequence of this...) That is expressed racism in the text. I'm trying not to 'whataboutism' here, but I think the least of Jane Eyre's problems are really related to Jane getting married.

But that's my problem, like, it's not quite as cool to talk about that because that's not the point being moralised in anti discourse. If your social movement is based upon what is most cool or what is most inciting, when it is no longer cool or inciting it won't matter.

[idolomantises]

I’ve seen people make excuses for the writing by mentioning it’s all just set up for spin offs and sequels but… I don’t want that? Why on earth would I want to wait 3 years for a show to say “oh by the way these characters will get proper conclusions in the spin offs”.

Just tl:dr I’m over this series and don’t plan on watching any of the sequels or spin offs. Maybe if they introduce a hot robot character I’ll check it out.

There’s not even a promise that every single character that has an inconclusive ending (which is all of them btw) will have spin offs and sequel shows. I’m pretty sure they’re likely going to just use a completely different cast since League has a lot of characters.

I’ve seen arguments that the season is bad because it has very few episodes and wasn’t spaced out, and while I do agree the pacing is terrible I also… don’t even think this show could have been salvaged if they gave it a full 4 seasons. Because either way, it was going to end with a lot of characters being badly written, sideline and having arcs unfinished so it can be explored in sequels and spin offs (if that even happen).

One thing I liked about arcane is that it avoided a lot of really bad tropes that I’ve seen modern queer media weirdly struggle with. Arcane avoided the pitfalls written female characters, female characters used to push male relationships and very clearly abusive couples that are dismissed just because they’re gay.

Then season 2 happens and Mel becomes a disposable black woman trope, Sky only existed for male angst, Maddie is literally there for shock value and adds nothing to the narrative, Vi just… turned into that and Caitvi is toxic yuri in a way that’s very unfun and frustrating. These two are seriously so incompatible for each other, but they make out and have sex a lot so I’m sure this destructive relationship with warring idealogies will be fine. Please queer shows for the love of god stop assuming gay characters kissing and fucking makes up for their lack of communication and horrible behavior to each other.

Honestly I’m really disappointed that all these things happened to Sky, Mel and Maddie because watching fans tear apart female characters for 4 years just for existing and getting in the way of ships only for them to be exactly that and for fans to cheer about their suffering pisses me off so bad like girl… what the hell happened did the writers have amnesia. How do you write this show right after season one and fuck up this bad.

Maybe we should stop making videos about how tv shows write female/queer characters well until they’re actually done because this is getting ridiculous.

And yes I want to come back to the issue with how black characters were treated because I do find it pretty gross for Mel and Ekko to be absent for most of the show but then come back to basically save the day so fans don’t complain about how they were obviously sidelined for the sake of other characters. I dont really care for Ekko/Jinx but I did enjoy their time together in the AU.

And another annoyance is that this show did such an incredible job at introducing moral greyness to the show but then got scared to really commit to giving these characters any consequences. And I don’t mean like death or going to jail, but I mean holding grudges. I think Jinx is a very interesting and tragic character but she’s also… a terrorist? She caused the death of their friends and father? Like she’s a grown woman making these decisions. Having characters run around and risk their lives to save her felt a bit frustrating because yeah circumstances lead to this but half of these circumstances are also her fault. I really wish the entire season was about Vi choosing whether or not she was ready to forgive Jinx instead of basically accepting her back because Vander is back.

And VANDER…. Actually I won’t say anything because the more I mention him the more it pisses me off.

I have more thoughts but I gotta draw some comics so I’ll just leave at that. Disappointing season that I think is a lot worse than fans insist it is. It’s not one or two issues, it’s just compounding problems that won’t improve.

Thoughts on Arcane season 2

I didn’t like this season

It’s not bad, but I found it incredibly rushed, cramped and deeply unsatisfying

While season 1 had several protagonists it was also pretty obvious that Vi and Jinx were the emotional core of the entire show so why on earth was their dynamic barely explored here

Vi went from being my favorite character to a character I found deeply frustrating and annoying. What the hell is her personality of getting her sister back and fucking the hot lesbian. She has no consistency whatsoever and it’s something I don’t think the show realizes how batshit the constant flip flopping in. What do you mean you sister tells you she’s going to kill herself and then you start fucking your messy situationship

I don’t really care for Jayvik but I found Jayce’s confession very sweet.

Mel my beautiful queen they’re gonna call you a Mary Sue

What the fuck was with all that Witch shit and Ambessa’s death was incredibly unsatisfying

Victor fans who kept begging the team to not make him a hot buff robot so he can still be a skinny twink pisses me off so bad because now we have an inferior twink robot design. I know fans probably didn’t influence this but I also need to complain about their lack of taste like what do you mean you didn’t want to see a hot buff robot man.

Ekko feels like an incredibly unimportant character and I’m pretty sure fans only like him because of what he can do for Jinx. A part of me wished he actually did hold a grudge just to see how fans reacted.

Season 1 was all about setting up emotional complexities and how nobody was truly evil and the show made it seem like there was no way for anyone to fully recovery from this but everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya’s so alright nevermind then

This show was honestly a little too in love with Jinx. I did not enjoy her writing in acts 1 and 2.

The jokes were really bad this season

The songs oh my god the SONGS. I didn’t mind them in season 1 but in season 2 it started to remind me of love is blind and anyone who has watched that show would know what a massive insult that is.

Caitvi lesbian sex scene and I couldn’t even enjoy it because the writing was pissing me off

Caitlyn should’ve continued her little fascist arc.

Mel’s arc this season felt like weird fanfiction.

A bunch of random side characters die off unceremoniously after the show gave them so much unnecessary screen time

I hated Isha sorry. I’ve never seen a character more clearly made to die.

Jinx death means nothing to me because I know she isn’t dead so why even do all that lol

I will never call this show sexist but it has done a massive disservice to its female characters.

[nerdby]

I am really fucking annoyed by the way that I was getting harassed by antis after I made a post about Clint Barton and Kate Bishop being in a situationship in Hawkeye Volume 1.

Cause not only did this continue after I had already said I don't support the ship but also all I did was ask a fucking question. Also way to fucking infantilize grown ass women -- Kate is in her twenties in that book -- because you can't wrap your heads around the idea of an adult woman being able to identify a predator on her own. Or that healthy age gap relationships exist.

Because they do. In fiction and real life, and before anyone asks I am single and that is on purpose because of my mental health. Because I was date raped in 2019 and haven't recovered from it unfortunately, and I don't date people under the age of twenty-seven because I'm in my thirties and most twenty-somethings are way too immature for me.

I don't have kids, I don't want them, and I don't go out of my way to interact with minors.

I also do not support ships about pedophilia or incest. By that I mean that I do not go out of my read about it and I do not enjoy writing about it. It makes me deeply uncomfortable, but I have read books on the subject and even though they make me uncomfortable some of them were good books that I have enjoyed. And I read those books because I want to understand why these things happen and how they can be prevented, and because I have an interest in psychology.

Y'all have got to stop and realize how deeply problematic it is to assume that just because someone enjoys "problematic" media that that makes them a bad person, and how calling everyone who disagrees with you a pedophile just makes you sound batshit paranoid. And if you genuinely think that someone enjoying toxic romance novels, for example, makes them an abuser or whatever then you are paranoid.

And the people doing this -- the minors -- congrats on being pearlclutching puriteens. You are well on your way to being the next generation of queerphobic radfems, white supremacist cops, and evangelist republicans because you refuse to acknowledge anyone whose opinions differs from your own.

You are no different from the pearlclutchers who pushed Satanic Panic bullshit in the 1980s and who make up Moms For Liberty today.

You wanna know why people love problematic media?

Because it is cathartic. Not just for creatives, but for the audience. It allows us to explore our fantasies and fears in a safe, healthy way because no one is getting hurt. It lets us feel brave and empowered even. That is it. It's not that deep.

And the next fucking anti who decides to harass me over bullshit is getting blocked.

[magnoliamyrrh]

and the thing is like yes absolutely media holds an impact and media has inherent perspectives in it and it sends messages and it can have societal infleunces. there is obviously a reason as well as to why the cia and several others push for propaganda through movies and films - for one example using the media to glorify the cia, or the idea of the rogue cop, or to further war on terrorism narratives etc. im not denying that. its also like maybe the population of adults shouldnt be so stupid as to gobble anything and everything up uncritically and maybe itd be less of an issue if ppl were less infleunced?

but that just reminded me, when the new game of thrones came out a lot of radical feminists were against it because they said its showing on incest was glorifying and promoting incest. and listen,,, theres good critiques to be made of the got and hotd shows (glorification of sexual abuse and violence among others, which isnt done in the books, and also which hotd did much less ) but also like......... with the incest thing i rly dont agree. i dont agree that hotd served to normalize incest, to show it as a good thing, or to glorify it, i really dont. just because you show something = condoning it. and sorry but at times the point of art and media is to explore the more uncomfortable and fucked up sides of human nature. the fandom reaction is one thing and people shipping a toxic relationship is one thing. but in hotd the incest is a) shown because it was indeed very common in the real world historical times the show is based upon b)shown because game of thrones itself is very much an exploiration of all the fucked up things ppl do c) definetely not portrayed as a good thing or a thing to be done. viserys and emma being cousins and coming from a line of incest is partially what leads to emma having so many miscarriages and pregnancy issues and dying. the targaryans idea of blood purity and incest is what leads to several of them going crazy. the relationship between rhaenyra and daemon is interesting bc of their dynamic and characters but it is shown from the very beggining to be toxic, grooming, abusive, and deeply fucked up, while also showing the nature of many fucked up incestuous relationships, which is that they care abt each other but also they dont and they love each other but also its very toxic and harmful and not any sort of normal form of love and care. like their dynamic is interesting bc they reflect parts of each other but the show definetely doesnt glorify it or say "hey, incest is good!!" it just. doesnt. it just doesnt.

also like,,,,,,,, someone wont watch hotd and then suddenly decide that incest or grooming is okay. thats not how it works. if they were gonna do it they were gonna do it regardless of a show

also......... that show also shows child marriage. and i think we can all agree it didnt glorify child marriage and in fact showed how insane and gross it was for a 40 year old man to be proposed to marry a 12 year old and then a 15 year old. just bc. u show something doesnt = condoning

[heartsgettingwiser62]

Personal discomfort or disgust is not, and will never, be a good metric for what should or shouldn’t be allowed to exist. Ships and fic don’t normalize abuse, incest, or any other taboo any more than Agatha Christie normalized murder. Fiction is how we can safely and harmlessly access and explore the darker sides of human nature. To only allow for morally pure fic isn’t just a recipe for boring stories, it’s a rejection of reality because the world is not morally pure and perfect either. But hey, if you don’t like that stuff you don’t have to engage with it

Tbh I have no idea of what I've said to prompt this ask lmao

(Btw now that we're here I do think that ships and fics and media in general can actually normalize abusive and toxic shit. It all depends on how you frame it. Of COURSE you can explore toxic or abusive or taboo dynamics or things like that, the problem comes when you frame those things as positive or desirable and glamorize them without minding the negative effects.

For example: there's this spanish romance movie called 3 metros sobre el cielo ((I think it's called 3 steps above heaven in english?? Idk how famous it's for y'all)) that came out in the 2000' and that heavily framed the abusive and aggressive tendencies of the guy love interest as 'mysterious' and 'quirky personality traits'. The result? Hundreds of girls who grew up in this era say how they ended up in abusive relationships bc they saw the way the protagonist treated the girl as something desirable and romantic and shit. So, yeah, you can dive into these topics but framing is extremely important bc movies, books, fics, and ships are culture, and culture severily shapes the way we see the world)

(Still have no idea why the ask tho skdkdk)

[suzannahnatters]

Trope Talk #1: Enemies to Lovers: A Deeper Dive

Reports of my death have been exaggerated, but not greatly. While I was in bed for a week lately, roleplaying a Victorian invalid, I watched a YouTube doing a deep dive on the enemies to lovers trope. While it was really fun seeing her break down subtropes (hate to love, rivals to lovers, reluctant allies, villain romance, and more - all of which I adore), I found myself somewhat disappointed by her attempt to discuss the deeper issues surrounding the trope. Like, yes: a lot of people enjoy things in fiction that they would not enjoy IRL and mature readers CAN distinguish between fantasy and reality...but also the media we consume DOES shape us, not all readers ARE as mature as we'd like to think, and while this trope can be executed in a way that's not problematic, it can also be executed in a way that is. Even if we wouldn't all personally draw the line between toxic and healthy in precisely the same place, I think that line does objectively exist. So, here are some of the ways I've subjectively drawn that line in my personal writing and reading when it comes to this trope...

SOME WAYS OF DOING ETL RIGHT

1. Not everyone is going to agree as to what's healthy and what's not, and it's important to listen to others.

Some are going to be mad at me for loving this trope at all, and some are going to be mad at me for thinking that one still needs to exercise judgement and that not everything goes, but hear me out. As a writer, the harder you go with this trope, the more divided your audience will be. Given that we all tend to draw the lines in different places, I think that listening to each other and discussing the reasons behind our own preferences and choices is going to help all of us understand the stakes, avoid hurting or triggering readers who have trauma from toxic relationships, and extend grace to storytellers who don't make the same decisions we would. And we shouldn't be defensive that this is necessary. ETL is actually a fairly new and under-explored trope, which I think is part of why it can be so divisive, especially in a post-#MeToo landscape where a lot of us are starting to rethink the controlling men and helpless women in pairings we've been conditioned to see as romantic. Meanwhile, as an author with a deep love for this trope, I hope that posts like this will help more cautious readers to understand that writing about dark and spiky relationships doesn't necessarily mean romanticising abusive behaviour. Either way, I've benefited from listening in humility and I truly think my stories are better for it.

2. Remember that evil is not misunderstood.

If you'll be writing ETL, then you need to decide early on if the love interest is evil or just misunderstood, and be careful to write him accordingly and be honest about it. If the love interest literally goes around killing innocent people, deal with that. That's evil, that's not (just) a traumatic childhood. On the other hand, if the love interest is antagonistic because of a misunderstanding, but is a fundamentally decent person deep down, he probably wouldn't casually slap the heroine around or otherwise act like a jerk. One mistake I used to see a lot of writers making (less often these days) is trying to convince me that some loathsome jerk is just misunderstood. No, if he's been doing bad things, don't try to explain his guilt away. Confront it head on.

THE LAST JEDI was my gateway drug to ETL precisely because I'd never seen this trope done so beautifully and so uncompromisingly: when Rey is forced to face the fact that the boy she likes is unrepentantly evil, she refuses to join him, explodes him and gets out of there. Ben isn't ready to seek repentance yet; he's a proud, if wavering, villain. Because the movie was absolutely honest about the evil within Ben, I was able to genuinely hope Rey might confront that evil and exorcise it, instead of being gaslit into thinking it was all right.

By contrast, in the very Bluebeard-vibes kdrama MASK, the love interest believes he's responsible for the death of his late fiancee and is being manipulated by the villain into thinking he's criminally insane. As a result, he believes that he's going to kill the heroine, his new wife. Physical touch and dirt are both triggers for him, too, and what the audience sees as a trauma response comes across to the heroine as strong hostility. He tells the heroine he is going to kill her, and she believes him, but the truth is that he dreads it as much as she does. This is a really beautifully done form of misunderstanding. Just remember that to be believable, misunderstandings need to be resolved fairly quickly.

3. Enemies doesn't need to mean hatred or toxicity.

While hate to love is a valid subtrope - especially in contexts where the characters aren't literally trying to kill each other, like in a contemporary romcom - ETL does NOT need to involve toxicity. There's a difference between ordering the assassination of an enemy, versus strangling your wife to terrorise her into obedience; both are bad, but only the latter is classic domestic violence, which casts doubt on any "HEA". Enemies need not hate or even abuse each other to be at odds; they may feel deep personal respect for a worthy opponent, who just happens to be ideologically committed to an opposing cause and therefore duty bound to antagonise the other. Personally, these characters may like, respect, or even passionately love each other - but thanks to duty, they're obliged to thwart each other.

A favourite example of this is Nikita and Michael from the spy show NIKITA. The pair started out as master and pupil before becoming coworkers for a rogue government agency, Division. Now Nikita has gone rogue herself and is working to bring down Division. She knows that Michael is still hanging in there for several reasons - he still believes Division serves his country, he's been skilfully manipulated by the head of the agency, and above all he feels the need to protect Division's young agents who are increasingly exploited by them. Nikita still has respect for Michael because of all these things and because he's the man who trained her to be as awesome as she is - and because she's his best student, Michael returns the sentiment and still goes out of his way to protect her, even as he's trying to hunt her down. Midway through the season, Nikita tries to protect Michael by preventing him from taking out the man who once killed his family - at which point Michael's view of Nikita sours. But she never stops respecting him and he's still willing to work with her when necessary to protect his agents. Throw in some mad chemistry and you've got the ingredients for a perfect ETL situation - although it has some hostility from Michael's side, it's never without that solid core of care and respect for each other. This is what makes the romance work, of course; all romances need a good reason for the character to care about each other. 

4. Remember that ETL is a fundamentally transformative relationship.

This builds on my first point. In ETL, unless there's a valid misunderstanding at play, there are probably moral/ethical differences between the characters. Thus, a huge part of your romance needs to be about resolving those differences, usually for the better. In other words (unless you're really into a corruption arc for the protagonist), the villainous/antagonistic character needs to genuinely repent and change, and we need that change to be demonstrated convincingly in story. At this stage, then, a good ETL story becomes about character growth, which means that it cannot be rushed. If the love interest has genuinely been evil, then he needs to change and prove it.

LOVE BETWEEN FAIRY AND DEVIL is a great example of a transformative ETL story. At the beginning of the drama, Dongfang Qingcang is a terrifying evil overlord who has frozen his emotions, killed his own father to rise to power, mastered hellfire magic and terrorised the three realms. As the story unfolds we do learn that there are some misunderstandings: Dongfang's father is the one who destroyed his emotions and forced him as a child to kill him, as well as instilling in him the fear that his people will be destroyed unless he conquers their enemies. But, this doesn't make Dongfang's villainy okay. Even after his emotions have been reawoken by our adorable heroine he still needs to realise that invading her homeland is not the right way to say thank you. By the end of the story we see that Dongfang is indeed a changed overlord. It takes a while, but it is believable.

5. Related, the characters should be a match for each other, especially when it comes to power and to morals.

I think a lot of the objections to ETL and villain romance pairings come from a perceived mismatch between the two characters: a weak person with a stronger person, or a pure and good person with a despicable manipulative blackguard. I think that it's always a good idea to balance this out. If your story begins with the love interest kidnapping your heroine to be his queen, why not let your heroine run a coup and replace him on the throne - right when he least expects it? The fact that your heroine is willing to get her hands dirty when it comes to this antagonist is not just delicious drama - it's also evidence that the two of them have more in common than they might think, and that in a longterm relationship she won't have any problems standing up to him. Alternately, if your heroine is going to remain pure and good throughout, she should probably be a match for the villain in terms of power, however that is measured in your story (and it can be a totally different sort of power than the villain wields). One of the most delicious things when watching any villain fall in love is finding the one woman whom he's absolutely helpless before.

I think Holly Black did this really well in the FOLK OF THE AIR trilogy. At first, Jude is a powerless mortal in the deadly fae court, and Cardan is the fae prince who delights in tormenting her. Jude proves herself far more cunning and ruthless than Cardan as she maneuvers the two of them into power as reluctant allies. It's clear that what Jude lacks in magic she makes up for in sharp intelligence and will to survive, and her ability to find a happy ending hinges on her ability to let down her guard and be vulnerable to Cardan. On the other end of the scale, Beauty and the Beast in most of its incarnations is about two kind people who want different things for sympathetic reasons, so that even though Beauty is held captive by the Beast we can understand the Beast's desperation to break his curse (and the Disney animated classic makes his motivations even more sympathetic by imposing a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity in which to do so). The Beast is truly gentle, and Belle is just spirited enough to snap back at him when he snaps at her. Both these stories work because the lovers are fundamentally a match.

6. Be creative.

There are all sorts of ways to create that delicious see-saw between "I adore you" and "I am going to kill you". The kdrama THE MASK, as mentioned above, uses the hero's mental health in an incredibly respectful way to create a sense of antagonism. The kdrama FLOWER OF EVIL does something similar. In Megan Spooner's absolutely incendiary SHERWOOD, there's a scene where the love interest goes from nearly killing the protagonist to tenderly embracing and caring for her within the very same chapter. Normally this would be the red flag to end all red flags, but it doesn't work that way here. How did Spooner manage it? Simple. The love interest doesn't know that the outlaw Robin Hood, whom he's trying to capture, is actually the same person as Maid Marian, the fair lady he's in love with - and when a quick costume change takes our heroine from one persona to another, the love interest's behaviour changes too. The emotional rollercoaster is real - but only for her.

7. There doesn't need to be a HEA.

I know, a lot of you are going to be up in arms about this, but it's true. Sometimes, especially in a straight up villain romance, the villain shouldn't get the girl. Maybe that's because she wants someone else, maybe it's because he's too manipulative and evil to be convincing as a long term relationship. But, let me frame it like this: why limit yourself just to writing the viable romances? There's a lot of good fun that can be got out of unviable romances too. You may not feel comfortable settling down with the villain, but that doesn't mean he can't be kissed :3

For example, in THE RINGS OF POWER the showrunners did something I never expected and gave Sauron himself a little crush on his greatest nemesis, Galadriel. The final episode, as he revealed his true identity and did his level best to manipulate her into joining him to rule Middle Earth, put joy into the souls of fangirls everywhere. It also caused a whole lot of people to clutch their pearls for some reason which remains opaque to me. After all, Tolkien was the man who wrote Eol, Maeglin, Wormtongue, and that moment when Morgoth himself was perving on Luthien Tinuviel. That aside, this is never going to be a viable match. Galadriel is married and hates Sauron's guts and Sauron is still a manipulative snake whose plans for healing Middle Earth involve him ruling as its lord and master, hopefully with Galadriel at his side. Galadriel doesn't fall for it for a second, which is one of the very things that makes this kind of story so incredibly satisfying to me. The fact that she won't succumb to his manipulation and temptation is incredibly empowering. As in THE LAST JEDI, the ball is in Sauron's court as to whether he changes to deserve her. And of course he won't - not just because he goes on to become the Lord of the Rings of Barad-dûr but more importantly because he never loved Galadriel for who she is but because of the way she made him feel, powerful and purposeful.

Not all villain romances need to end this way, of course, because some villains are capable of change. I think this is what makes Reylo viable where Haladriel is not. While Sauron and Galadriel each appeal to the EVIL in each other, Rey appeals to the good in Ben; he meanwhile desires the Light in her. This is why her refusal does ultimately prompt him to change, although of course the story's resolution was massively bungled in THE RISE OF SKYWALKER.

8. Love should be what the villain needs - but not what he wants.

It's hard to make absolute rules when it comes to any artistic choice, but this is probably the closest I come when dealing with this trope: because there should be consequences for the love interest's misdeeds, especially when it comes to the heroine. I call this the POTO rule: if the love interest wants the heroine romantically or sexually abuses her, he should not be rewarded by getting her. Enemies to lovers may fight over anything by any means, but not over romantic or sexual possession of each other. If the villain becomes a villain in order to possess the heroine, then a HEA for them involves giving him exactly what he wanted and thereby justifying his bad behaviour. Mind you, this doesn't mean the love interest can never want the heroine on some level; if he did not then this would not be a romance. We're talking about his most fundamental motivation and his most important story goal. She should not be either of them; she should be a distraction, an impediment to them.

This is simply good writing sense. Enemies to lovers normally implies a positive change arc for the love interest. Every good positive change arc involves a character who Wants one thing, say, to rule the world; but Needs something totally different - the capacity to make peace through compassion, say.  Such characters may or may not get what they Want, depending on how good it is for them and the people around them, but they'll always get what they Need. This is why I think ETL works best when the heroine herself is the thing the antagonist doesn't know he Needs. As an enemy, and even more so if he's a villain, he's likely to be unscrupulous in getting what he Wants, and he shouldn't get her for the same reasons that characters often don't get what they Want. Think about it: the villain probably needs some hard consequences for what he's done. He can get them, *and also get the girl*, but only as long as the girl isn't the motivation for his crimes.

{How does this fit with the "stolen bride" genre of story, usually a fairytale? Do I disapprove of those on principle? Mm, no. If the bride was stolen primarily because the kidnapper claimed to have a romantic or sexual attraction to her, I might object. But there's usually some other motivation. He wants to break a curse; he wants to annex her kingdom; he wants to keep her out of his enemies' hands; he might have been ordered to marry her by someone he dares not cross, or bound by an ancient custom; in any case he ought not to be personally motivated to control or possess her. This is one of those grey areas where lines blur and it's wise to listen and be careful because so many real women have been trapped in marriages to real live villains; but the thing is very doable under the right circumstances.} 

I call this the POTO rule because it was inspired by THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA. In this story, Erik is obsessed with Christine to the point where romantic and sexual possession of her drives everything he does. He kills, manipulates, and gaslights everyone at the Paris Opera in an attempt to win Christine's heart, and ultimately he's willing to threaten to kill the man Christine truly loves in order to get the thing he Wants: Christine's hand in marriage. Now, I know a lot of you ship this pairing and I'm not going to scold you for it; maybe you ship them the way I ship Haladriel, loving the relationship without thinking it should end in a HEA, or perhaps you think Christine can fix Erik through some genuinely transformative plotline, or maybe you just want Erik to get what he wants even though it's messed up, and whatever it is I hope you have fun with it. But personally, from the perspective of a published author with a sense of responsibility to my readers, I really think the story ended in the best possible way. Erik doesn't get what he Wants (Christine) but he does get what he Needs (a transformative moment of transcendent compassion that enables him to act in a truly loving manner, by letting Christine go).

So, most of the time, I think it's wisest if the heroine is what the love interest doesn't know he Needs. Again, LOVE BETWEEN FAIRY AND DEVIL does this SO well. Dongfang Qingcang doesn't have time for love - emotionless and too busy Evil Overlording, he's never been in love before. So, when he's saddled with an adorable, dimwitted flower fairy, he can't wait to break the spell that links them together so that he can kill her and get on with his villainous plans. When her emotions begin to infect him, he can't help falling in love with her, even though he fights it every single step of the way. She's absolutely not what he Wants, but she is everything he Needs to thaw his frozen heart and teach him to act with compassion and empathy. Even though he spends much of the series planning to kill her, the HEA doesn't strike me as being Problematique the way that an Erik/Christine HEA would be - because a HEA with Orchid represents the moral growth that Dongfang needs, rather than the selfish desire he wants.

9. Maybe the villain's HEA is with someone else.

This doesn't mean a villain is irredeemable or shouldn't get a HEA. It just might mean that his HEA is with someone else. (Unless he's actually a rapist. Then just light the man on fire.) Erik shouldn't get Christine because he's done so much evil in order to possess her. But, once she's broken through to him to show him compassion, he might be ready to learn to love and to make amends for his past crimes...perhaps with someone else.

This was a huge part of the inspiration for the character of Vasily in my Bête Epoque stories. He does something which traumatises the heroine so much, there's no realistic HEA for them. Like Christine, she forgives him anyway, even in the midst of betrayal. And like Erik, he finds he's unable to go through with his villainous plans. She gets her HEA with somebody else, but I found myself with this incredibly compelling character whom a lot of people were pulling for. Vasily has already learned a huge lesson through having loved and lost my first heroine - so when he meets my second heroine, even though in a lot of ways he's still a treacherous monster, he's able to start afresh, and do better, with someone far more resilient who holds far greater power over him.

10. Individual characters will need individual things.

Finally, I think it's necessary to use judgement based on the individual characters and what they need. This is another reason why it's so difficult to make hard and fast rules here. For instance, I said that if the enemy sexually assaults the heroine he should forgo any hope of a HEA with her. But I think we've all seen romances that involve, say, some dubiously consensual kissing, which we can understand the kissee forgiving. By the same token, the act which disqualifies my character Vasily from his first HEA is not sexual assault but something which is coded that way within the story world, and experienced that way by the heroine (vampire bite). The fact that it's not literally sexual assault is what makes it possible for Vasily to get a romantic second chance, but the fact that it is figurative sexual assault is one of the main things that decided me against a HEA the first time. So, I think that whether you're a writer or reader, it's important to exercise judgement based not just on the things that are obvious, but also on less obvious things like the characters' specific needs, the thematic symbolism of the story world, and more.

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So those are my best ETL writing guidelines - and again, this is only what works for me! I think it's really hard to make hard and fast rules for any artistic work, but from thinking about what works for me and what doesn't, these are some of the lines I've drawn for myself. If you're reading this, I hope it provokes some helpful thoughts :-)