#i also love the direction we're going with dani

[lilac-lemonade]

I told myself I was going to put off watching the new episode so that I could actually get some work done but then, uh, I didn’t do that so I guess it’s Ted Lasso time

[katsu-curry835]

Why Bisexual Jon Snow Could Work /srs

Jon Snow is bisexual and here's why.

Aight, I'm aware the queer rep in asoiaf is pretty eh for the most part. Sweets is cool, and Loras and Renly have a nice implied relationship but Dany and Cersei having gay sex scenes felt way more fetishized than actually meaningful representation, especially since neither character considers a romance with a woman. Because of this, I'm gonna say that while I think this could be a valid direction to take the story, I'm like 50% sure that GRRM won't write it. Then again, it's been so long between books that times have literally changed and FnB seemed to have a ton of queer relationships so who knows.

Ok, ok, so I've laundered my argument; we all know why we're really here. Jon Snow could be bisexual and that could be really important for the story. Why?

First and most obvious is that it's another parallel with Dany. Jon and Dany have had storylines that directly mirror each other, especially in books 3 and 5. Dany is confirmed bisexual by the narrative, since she has regular sex with her handmaiden Irri, although because of her position of power over her, she tries to limit them. And, as already mentioned, she never gets to be romantically attracted to a woman. Maybe that's coming in future novels, who knows, but all that to say Dany and Jon mirroring each other on the bi front is not inconceivable, especially when you consider that there is already evidence for Jon being bi.

I'm sure most of you deep into this discourse(?) have probably predicted that I'm going to talk about Satin. And if this story does go in the 'Irri' direction, Satin is definitely the candidate for Jon's male love interest. He's a former prostitute from Oldtown, which mirrors another of Dany's handmaids (Doreah I think) and he's Jon's steward, like Irri is to Dany. Other characters also seem to think that Satin has kinda slept his way up the ranks to being Jon's steward, confirming at least that this idea is in GRRM's head. I wanna take a look at a few scenes and see how they could imply a future relationship between Jon and Satin. Take a look at this fight scene between Jaime and Brienne (I promise this is relevant.)

"'Give me the sword, Kingslayer.'

'Oh I will.' He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing...

...The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, followed her through a shallow brook half choked with fallen leaves. Steel rang, steel sang, steel screamed and sparked and scraped, and the woman was grunting like a sow at every crash, yet somehow he could not reach her."

To me this scene has always read as implicitly foreshadowing Brienne and Jaime's future romance. Words like "kissed" or "grunted" or "pinned her against a tree" feel implicitly romantic/sexual, even the way the scene is described as a "dance." Jaime even says at a later point "Might I have this dance my lady" to mock her. Of course there is plenty more in the story as a whole that foreshadows Brienne and Jaime having a relationship, but I use this as an example because I want to point out how GRRM sometimes writes a fight scene as romantic and sexual foreshadowing, or at least that can be how some scenes are interpreted. Now I want to look at the scene where Jon trains Satin.

"It's too heavy," the Oldtown boy complained.

"It's as heavy as it needs to be to stop a sword," Jon said. "Now get it up." He stepped forward, slashing. Satin jerked the shield up in time to catch the sword on its rim, and swung his own blade at Jon's ribs. "Good," Jon said, when he felt the impact on his own shield. "That was good. But you need to put your body into it. Get your weight behind the steel and you'll do more damage than with arm strength alone. Come, try it again, drive at me, but keep the shield up or I'll ring your head like a bell . . ."

This scene reads similarly to me. Words like "jerked," "rim," "get it up," even the one word sentence "Come," can read as sexual foreshadowing in a similar way to Jaime and Brienne if you are given context that Jon and Satin do end up together. In particular, "ring your head like a bell" reminds me of a scene where Gendry gets approached by a girl but rejects her advances.

"I'm named Bella," the girl told Gendry. "For the battle. I bet I could ring your bell, too. You want to?"

I would be remised if I didn't mention that Jon calls Satin pretty three times in the chapter where he's supposed to be engaged in a battle with the wildlings. Like yeah, that's a bit weird, why are you thinking about that now Jon. Or I could mention the fact that he described Satin’s voice swearing his words as being like song and that he could smell the fresh sweet oils Satin rubbed into his beard. Jon… buddy you got something you wanna say? I’m joking of course: you don't have to be queer to recognize another man's beauty. What I think puts this into perspective is if you compare this to how he describes Val, someone who it's generally agreed upon that he takes an interest in.

Here's a quote where Jon describes Satin:

"The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night's Watch; the name he'd gotten in the brothel where he'd been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven's ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow."

Now here's Val:

"Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world."

I mean, the fact that "pretty" is a word used to describe both Ygritte and Satin is a connection that I shouldn't need to point out the significance of, but I digress. If you actually compare these quotes, both look like neutral descriptions of someone's appearance in isolation, however in context, you have to ask why the author shows you this stuff. Why does Jon comment on how good looking both of these characters are so often? It doesn't seem like there would be any other purpose to these, again, repeated descriptions of both Val and Satin other than to highlight that the fact that Jon finds both of them attractive is important.

Again, none of this proves anything outright. I mention this because this is the sort of thing where if you reread the books with this lens, suddenly more things start to jump out at you, and it can read like obvious foreshadowing you missed. Like when Catelyn sees her reflection in some armor and comments on how "drowned" she looks. It doesn't mean too much on a first read, but when you know what happens to her, it's some clever foreshadowing.

Another big reason I think Jon getting with Satin might be important is that you can see it as a pivotal part of Jon's character arc, specifically Jon's sexual awakening storyline. When Jon first has sex with Ygritte, she's the one who initiates the interaction. In fact she has been doing that the whole time he's had her hostage, teasing him with advances and mocking him for his inexperience. In the famous cave scene, Jon's thoughts are how he wants to bang her, but also about how it would be in conflict with his vows. That's the main reason he never has sex with her until she incites it on her own; it's not because he doesn't want to. It's because he thinks it would violate the words he swore at the weirwood.

So Ygritte begins this part of his arc, and Jon discovers that he likes having sex, how original. But he still feels reservations about it, during the act and afterwards. After all, his people resent him for being able to openly take a woman to bed with him, while they have to go to Mole's Town to dig if they want to get any action at all.

My view on this is that the story is heading in a sex-positive direction with respect to Jon. There’s plenty of theming about this “why is it a sin if it feels so good” etc etc. The books are full to the brim of people feeling needlessly guilty about having casual sex, Jon especially. Where I think this is headed, therefore, is probably something like a wildling understanding of sex; Jon has to view sex as Ygritte did, because that was always the healthiest way for him to go about it. Except this time, to complete his arc, he is going to need to take the initiative himself and embrace his desires like Ygritte did. Her teasing him for not doing this was trying to get him to come out of his shell. It would feel strange to me if this went nowhere. Jon needs a future romantic/sexual partner so that he can feel no qualms with taking the initiative with them. How he learns to do that is up to George but suffice it to say, however uncertain I maybe that this partner will be Satin, a future romance is in the cards for Lord Snow.

So Jon's in a bit of a bind here from a meta perspective. If we want him to complete his sexual awakening storyline, he's going to have to take the initiative himself with a partner without feeling any inhibitions. But he can't do that if he's still a brother of the Night's Watch because of the aforementioned conflict with his vows. But he's not going to stop being a crow, his vows are important to him. So how do we reconcile the fact that Jon's character arc about his sexuality needs to be resolved, but he also needs to keep to his words? Simple: make his next partner male so it doesn't violate anything.

I've actually thought this could work as a plot point for anyone either in the Night's Watch or the Kingsguard. One of these men surely has to consider at some point the obvious loophole of "so I can't bed a woman, but what about a man?" and how that affects their honor or whatever. It just slots kinda nicely into Jon's storyline here. Another reason it really works is that Jon is looking to socially progress the Night’s Watch: unity with the wildlings, defending Satin from homophobia etc. Him realising the obvious flaw of the vows for not considering that men can be romantically involved through his own experiences as a bi guy can help him begin to dismantle the outdated nature of the customs. He’s framed as this sort of reformer, and being a queer bastard (who is also probably the lost heir to the Targaryen dynasty) makes this thematically poignant. He’s an outcast, but also a king.

Of course, he’s always been an outcast, being queer would just help add to that. And this is just one way of writing this arc; I’m not married to this take on this basis alone.

I can so imagine a scene where Jon is having sex with Satin and the lit hearth is positioned behind Satin's head from Jon's POV and it looks like Satin's been 'kissed by fire.' Also, Jon considering how Ygritte would feel about him doing this and coming to that conclusion that she would be proud seems like a great way to end a chapter about the two hooking up because Jon's arc would be basically resolved.

This final part is something that I feel should not be left merely implied: Jon being canonically bisexual would be great representation. This is one of the most beloved and famous heroes in all of fantasy, hell, in all of modern fiction. Making him queer would be a really important step forward for queer rep that should not be underestimated. Verity Ritchie (VerilyBitchie on yt) did an excellent video essay on bisexuality in reality tv, a point from which I'm going to paraphrase: it's really hard to effectively depict bisexuals because any confirmed relationship with another character would look like they 'picked a side.' But in order to continually show someone's openness to sexual attraction to two or more genders, you risk going to far the other way, falling into the bisexual sex demon stereotype. This is a really difficult needle to thread, and is why we have characters like Nick Nelson constantly having to remind us that they're bi, rather than having us just assume they could be. Put simply, we need better bi representation, especially with men and Jon Snow is excellent casting for the role. His relationship to Ygritte is constantly referenced throughout the narration as something he treasures and misses, so there would be no doubt that he was not 'gay the whole time.' But, if the Satin story goes ahead, there can be no doubt he's not queer either. Literature is a great place to put bi characters, I think, since an internal monologue can remind you of past relationships with other characters of different genders and how they mean something to the character in question, but never undermining the integrity of the current relationship.

Me personally, I'd be buzzing for Jon Snow to be confirmed as bi. Really interested to see people's thoughts on this.

[aethtalon]

After gorging myself on DP content, I have some crack for you.

Okay, so. Day of the portal accident, despite not being in thatle lab, wierd portal/ghost bullshit results in Jazz also becoming a halfa. But she blacks out the memory because trauma and no one else knows. She doesnt remember as a ghost either. Doesnt remember that she's Jazz, doent remember shes half human, nada.

And due to this lack of information/memory/knowledge of the self, when she transforms, her ghost half ends up being an expression of everything she's repressed trying to be respectable a good student and Danny's parent a good older sister.

A ghost of her childhood so to speak

Bit who's the ghost half? Obviously you could do it as like. Sort of an OC but extrapolated from what we know of Jazz, but this is crack so no. We're fusing Jazz with one of the characyers from the show.

Spectra is the most obvious paralell with Jazz what with both being involved in psychology, but not the direction we're going with and too much of a grownup.

Could have it be Kitty because what with the whole posession episode thing its somewhat easy to relate the two chracters and that would be an interesting read but thats not the character I was looking at when I thought this up.

Maybe Dani/Ellie? Child, related to Danny and honestly Id love to see a clusterfuck where Vlad tried to make a pure ghost clone of Danny and shit went haywire and Dani and Jazz ended up merging into a single halfa, bit no

Jazz's ghost half is Ember.

You can thank this post

For being the inspiration for this concept, specifically the bottom bit with Jazz and Ember next to each other where they look kinda similar

[i-wanna-die-like-now]

I'm drunk and I have some thoughts on this.

@alteredphoenix I completely agree! The ice core is amazing and I love it for him-

But!

It has never really made sense to me, nothing about Danny screams ice or cold, I get that it's also a major factor in his ghost sense but man they missed hard, his character (to me) shows warmth and energy.

So... looking Into what Ice and cold can represent in media,

This one sort of fits, being a halfa is new territory, for both him and the ghost zone. Him falling into his powers and discovering new things. All uncharted, new.

Rigidity and stillness... Not so much, Dannys life takes off in so many new directions, there isn't a standstill in his life and he definitely isn't devoid of sentiment. If anything he has more, he's using everything he has just to save people, because it's the "right" thing to do. He has so many emotions and thoughts on all this new information he is being exposed to, processing so many new things.

Absent of hate, yeah I see that, true hate? That's something I think takes a lot for Danny to feel, along with wrath.

This one fits extremely well, Danny has to be really mentally unwell after everything he's been through, he's around his parents that are constantly spouting how much they hate his kind and what they want to do to them. Lack of love? I'm sure he's feeling that, ik I would be. But it also doesn't fit because he has the love of most people in his life, his friends and Jazz, even his parents (albeit half the time) I think it's a huge part of the show how much love he is surrounded with, their friendship is a huge part of it. Jazz accepting him and him accepting Dani, there isn't a lack of love.

(I haven't watched the show in a hot minute tho)

Death, absolutely, he's dead. He's surrounded by death and other dead people.

I don't see Dannys character of one of hatred or destruction, Dan. Sure, but we're talking about Danny.

But most of these aren't in the show, they don't dive into it and so it comes off as extremely out of place. It's not like it makes no sense, him having ice powers was never something I thought needed to be changed, I still don't, it does make me think about why he does have an ice core though when electricity was right there.

Now here's my own thoughts on electricity and how that would have worked.

He died surrounded by electricity and ectoplasm, he can use ecto energy so it makes sense that he would also be able to use electricity. Vald isn't shown to use an ice core so it can't be that it because he’s half dead, there isn't a sold reason as to why it can't be electric. (I wish the show went into more details about cores)

Electricity to me shows warmth and power, Danny is shown to be powerful, he is a newly formed ghost and he manages to beat multiple strong ghosts that have been around for way longer than him. I took that as him being extremely powerful, he is also shown to be compassionate and caring. He's a good person with a good heart, being dead and warm doesn't go hand in hand but I don't think that matters all that much.

He's always moving and flowing, both with his movements in fights and his opinions and values. He's a growing teenage boy and is learning new things about himself and the world, ghosts and the zone included, he's growing and lighting a light in the kids of Amity. Sparking change for ghosts and painting them in a new light for humans. He's both a ray of hope for the citizens he's protecting and the ghosts he helping, almost like a new era, like when we discovered electricity and it changed our daily lives.

He's also dangerous, and deadly.

One wrong move and he could end a life, end whole cities (as shown in The Ultimate Enemy) much like one wrong move with electricity and you're left injured or dead.

Overall electricity is good and it helps us everyday but it can also cause serious harm and I think that suits Danny so well, him being afraid of what he can do with his powers after the whole Dan scare, the warmth he brings Amity and the zone, it fits him perfectly imo.

And them there's the angst of having a power that literally killed him, that would be terrifying.

[travllingbunny]

Yoy think Daenerys will turn evil in the books?

No. I also don't think she will go mad.

I do think she will get darker and more ruthless in The Winds of WInter. So will Jon Snow. In Dany's case it will be because she tried to repress the "dragon" side of her nature and made too many compromises in Meereen in ADWD, which she will realize was a mistake, symbolically embracing her dragon side now that she's with Drogon and has become his rider, but she may go too far into the other direction.

She will also at some point meet Tyrion, who will become her advisor - and Tyrion is definitely in his dark phase already and full of rage and desire for revenge against his family - especially his siblings, so he is certainly not going to be a moderating, level-headed influence.

I think, on the personal level, TWOW Jon Snow will be darker and more terrifying than Dany, and maybe more than Tyrion too, once he comes back from the dead (probably after spending some time in Ghost) - because he has the mystical storyline of getting resurrected, in addition to the man/direwolf duality and symbiosis. GRRM has made it clear many times that he thinks any storyline of someone getting resurrected must include a heavy price, and that it can't be just someone being the same or having even bigger powers. However, Jon Snow being even more terrifying than Dany and Tyrion on the personal level would be off-set by the fact that Dany is a dragonrider with control over two more dragons, which gives her a lot of potentially destructive power. (This may change when/if Jon gets to ride a dragon too, but Dany will already have that kind of power when she gets to Westeros.)

I think we're in for a very dark penultimate novel, where our protagonists will do a lot of troubling and maybe destructive things. But I don't think any of them are meant to end up their arcs as evil. It would especially be weird for Dany. GRRM has already written a "mad Queen/evil Queen" character, who loves fire, doesn't care for the lives of most people, and has been compared to Aerys - it's Cersei. So why would he make Dany go mad and evil too? Dany and Jon are parallels to each other. Dany and Cersei, on the other hand, are written to be two powerful women who are complete opposites as people and rulers (even with some of the similar experiences), so it makes no sense for them to end up both evil and mad, unless the author is trying to say women rulers are bad in general, which I really can't see GRRM deciding to do. And Dany constantly questioning her actions and her sanity (something a malignant narcissist like Cersei never does) is another reason why her going evil and/or insane would be extremely unsatisfying.

I think that the show plot of King's Landing getting destroyed will happen in the books as the tragic result of the Dany/fAegon civil war, and that it will probably be due to several factors including Dany's dragons ( it would be both/either due to her her determination to be harsh to her enemies and/or inability to fully control Drogon). stashes of wildfire in the city, and Jon Connington likely doing something extreme. He is the one who is likely to get triggered by the sound of bells, because it reminds him of his loss at the Battle of Bells, which has haunted him since, and he has already decided that he has to be more extreme and ruthless, like Tywin, in order to win this time.

In any case, I think whatever happens makes Dany decide that fighting for the Iron Throne was wrong and makes her want to redeem herself, and that her ultimate fate is to fight the Others, which has been foreshadowed. And if I'm certain of anything about ASOIAF, it's that the Long Night will not be the short, anticlimactic affair it was in the show - it will be the big, final showdown, because it has always been strongly implied that this is what the humans in the story really need to focus on, instead of fighting each other over power.

[horizon-verizon]

Note after writing: so I poke my head up into Tumblr now that I've finished my cross-country move and can soon again indulge in essays and all the replies/drafts I've been putting off. I innocently engage in some passive scrolling until your Dany-Westeros comment tempts me into a quick ask comment, and THIS comes out? On my phone where I hate to edit/cut asks for later? Oops. Let this be an example of how for some reason you're very good at steering my rant interests. (And to think I started this one because I thought I didn't have time for the twilight one. We'll get there ;)

Thank-you for pointing out that Westeros needs Dany far more than she needs Westeros. I'm so tired of people acting like Westeros is the centre of that world when not even Dany sees it that way. Honestly, I don't think she's compatible with Westeros because I don't even really think the Targaryens (or general human health and happiness) were. We're hit over and over again with how Westeros will continually ostracize and blame the Other for their own problems (Rego Draz, Larra Rogare, Lady Serala who loves to prove that team smallfolk don't actually pay attention to the riverlands chapters or twoiaf over the wiki otherwise they'd question how F&B presents Mysaria and Rhaenyra. Actually all examples make a point about how F&B and team small folk treat Rhaenyra, that's why she's my current obsession). We're hit with all the other ways in how (ironically) "backwards" and xenophobic Westeros is. Not just in a "period accurate" way, but also in a way that seems excessive compared to the realms that surround them. Omens aside, I don't think that the Valyrians and pre-Conquest Targs having little interest aside from possibly wanting a certain kind of imperial influence via trade is supposed to mean nothing. (And i find it interesting how those "Westeros is the beacon of civilization and enlightment - no don't ask me how the Enlightment happened" stans are so quick to claim that the very slow-moving Freehold would have uber-colonized Westeros if not for their superstitions or possible knowledge and wariness of the weird magic of Westeros like the Others, BUT of course Aegon was definitely not motivated to conquer Westeros for that reason and definitely didnt believe that deeply in the forces that apparently were the one thing that kept the uber-dragon-reich from immediately invading...) because the Targaryen's biggest failure is their lack of connection to historic Valyria unless we're talking about how singularly evil they are in which case they are a direct continuation of all the bad parts and only the bad parts of the institution they only SEEMED alienated from. Also this is a trait that skips over certain good men to bad women and has concentrated in Dany because 1. These traits actually get stronger over time as they're passed like how pesticides build up more in owls than in their prey and 2. because men DO culture but women EMBODY culture and bad woman embody the bad parts.

Right. Westeros's relative irrelevance outside of the Long Night. GRRM himself has pointed out how the Freehold resembled the EARLY Roman Republic and their contract system. Valyrians tended to conquer preexisting power structures, leave it relatively intact, and extract tribute, rather than (with exceptions of course) going full Andal (Or Rome to Celtic Europe) settler-colonial assimilation mode. Because I won't stop pointing out that the Valyria/Essos parallels to Rome are limited to the early days and then solely to the "Oriental" half and subsequent conquests by other empires like the Ottomans - especially the Ottomans you can't change my mind - and that any parallel to later Occidental Rome and the Western Roman settler-colonialism-to-slave-plantation-to-feudalism pipeline belongs to Westeros. Especially since the one "off" part of this division, Valyrian fuctioning like Latin across Essos, can be explained by GRRM outright admitting that linguistics is a weak spot of his and he didn't give it much thought.

That the Conquerors took Westeros with three dragons while the Freehold showed no interest for millennia should say something about Westeros's relevance and desirability. That the snooty blood-purist Valyrians (whose far flung survivors' ideologies around their blood and current attitudes towards it were definitely not altered by the destruction of their mother civilization and decimation of population, nor was there any possible practical or pragmatic aspect relating to magic because all civilizations are like whi- Andals but in ways that are recognizably worse than whi- Andals who embody those traits in healthy and/or invisible forms) apparently were willing enough to form bonds with other powerful realms/empires without the (overwhelming) desire to conquer (eg a dragonrider wedding an emperor of YiTi, the fact that Sarnor was right there yet never taken, and fell so soon to Dothraki after Valyria suggesting they were entwined enough that the Doom destabilized them) yet did not do so with Westeros... should also mean something.

What would the Ottomans, or any of the powers around them, want with a giant England that's also way over there? With North-west Europe in general? One that exists in a nasty middle where the diverse cultures and knowledge have already been colonized and replaced with a single knowledge/culture system that makes the Latinized sliver of Roman utilitarianism look downright sophisticated, BUT it also doesn't come along with all that wealth stolen from other lands? Especially without an equivalent to Islam/Christianity to add an ideological, competitive motivation?

Not much.

Problem is... as much as i would love if it could be framed in a way that makes Westeros's relative irrelevance clear, I also don't like the message it sends that you should just let xenophobes be xenophobes, that Dany should come in, fix all of Westeros's problems and then leave (or worse, die) because she nor her family ever really belonged there and yet all those generations of women suffered through all misogyny just so Dany can save the root of that misogyny while also probably being subjected to it. But I also don't like a lot of the alternatives. She can't rule Westeros without dramatically restructuring it and getting called a "tyrant," because I'll maintain that while it's both problematic and bad writing to thematically link Dany+House Targaryen to Valyria as a whole TOO MUCH, I do think the one "parallel" that the Targs and Valyria share, that Dany BREAKS on the third round, is that joining, maintaining and assimilating into preexisting exploitative systems according to THEIR rules, even if war and violence ARE the rules but only if used in a way that follows the rules, isn't just a bad idea when magic is the source of your power, but it's also not a more "ethical" choice than using your magic advantage to break said system. A stance I'm sure the "anti-colonial" irl maesters would LOVE.

But... I've always been convinced that much like Rhaenyra, Dany's story is very much a sociological story, even compared to the other characters around her. She's very much a product of the world around her and the state of that world, and more importantly, the way the world responds to her and her actions is a statement about the world around her.

I'll die on the hill that, because we never get her pov, because GRRM hammers it in that anything relating to her is the most ambiguous part of F&B, Rhaenyra simply cannot be judged for the choices she makes (and all the ones she possibly makes) as an individual. Because aside from kind of forming a dual warning with Nettles for Dany (that raw power from dragons alone leaves her a target and incredibly vulnerable, which Dany learns herself pretty quickly, but that working with a system that won't work with her will never work, that it will ultimately rob you of even the raw power you bring in to it, which she takes a bit longer to learn) Rhaenyra's not meant to function as an individual who is tested. Because she IS the test. A test (most) the men of House Targaryen fail as they chose "The Realm". Because the Realm fails, Gyldayn fails, Stannis (Mr. "The Law" & "Right makes Right") fails... HotD and a good portion of the internet fail...

Which is why however Dany's Westeros arc is resolved is going to be more of a statement on Westeros and the charcters established there (and on GRRM, because I'll also maintain that the themes around Rhaenyra and Dany, that link Rhaenyra and Dany, make them the most "meta") than it is on her. In fact, even GoT fell into this by accident, in that anything even tangential to Dany in those last seasons is incredibly revealing - of the ugly underbelly of the Westeros they had adapted, of the writers, of the "ideal audience" they were appealing to, and the actual audience that still managed to swallow it and was only uncomfortable with how the clumsy writing made it... that much more revealing - of THEM.

I think I started with a conclusion and question about Dany inevitably losing certain forms of agency while becoming a bit of a mirror, on multiple levels, the moment she sets foot in Westeros and meets other pov characters from the "normal" culture, and how I do wonder if/how GRRM struggles with that... and the urge i worry he has and hopefully fights to pull an hbo by (hbo)Targaryen Woman-ing her and essentially withdrawing from her pov or from directing reader empathy and identification towards her, the outsider, and away from the "normies." I like to hope he's a better writer than that. But he's also a white liberal. But... good writing, especially set in a world that the author doesn't live in, often is more "progressive" than the author themselves. For reasons I'm cutting off here before an essay emerges.

Oh wow I really did that to you 😂, you brave warrior of ask culture.

Rhaenin, there is a special hell just for you, just you wait. (THIS is the ask rhaenin-time talks abt when they say "your Dany-Westeros comment" and "Thank-you for pointing out that Westeros needs Dany far more than she needs Westeros").

I think that there would be some confusion over why one wouldn't look at the Targs landing in Westeros through Daenys as them not trying to establish an outpost for future conquest from other Valyrians. But Daenys' father had no intention of settling on Dragonstone before the vision of the Doom and thr other dragonslords sincerely thought he was running away scared, showing us that they may not have been really "interested" in colonizing Westeros. A bit weird to think about Westeros' "desireability" for conquest.

As for GRRM, I can only say we just will have to hope for how he's going to have Dany after the destruction of the Others. As for her meeting others before then, I imagine it will be a very mixed reception and she'd grow a sense of resentment due to how they'd treat her, but nothing "mad" wise like some people say.

But... I've always been convinced that much like Rhaenyra, Dany's story is very much a sociological story, even compared to the other characters around her. She's very much a product of the world around her and the state of that world, and more importantly, the way the world responds to her and her actions is a statement about the world around her. I'll die on the hill that, because we never get her pov, because GRRM hammers it in that anything relating to her is the most ambiguous part of F&B, Rhaenyra simply cannot be judged for the choices she makes (and all the ones she possibly makes) as an individual. Because aside from kind of forming a dual warning with Nettles for Dany (that raw power from dragons alone leaves her a target and incredibly vulnerable, which Dany learns herself pretty quickly, but that working with a system that won't work with her will never work, that it will ultimately rob you of even the raw power you bring in to it, which she takes a bit longer to learn) Rhaenyra's not meant to function as an individual who is tested. Because she IS the test. A test (most) the men of House Targaryen fail as they chose "The Realm". Because the Realm fails, Gyldayn fails, Stannis (Mr. "The Law" & "Right makes Right") fails... HotD and a good portion of the internet fail... Which is why however Dany's Westeros arc is resolved is going to be more of a statement on Westeros and the charcters established there (and on GRRM, because I'll also maintain that the themes around Rhaenyra and Dany, that link Rhaenyra and Dany, make them the most "meta") than it is on her. In fact, even GoT fell into this by accident, in that anything even tangential to Dany in those last seasons is incredibly revealing - of the ugly underbelly of the Westeros they had adapted, of the writers, of the "ideal audience" they were appealing to, and the actual audience that still managed to swallow it and was only uncomfortable with how the clumsy writing made it... that much more revealing - of THEM.

So I pretty much agree here, but perhaps you could also explain more about Rhaenyra's ambiguity. I get more of the sense that she is a test, but not so much here aside from her not being given as much independent words like Otto/Daemon. And i understand that her "silence" is meant to make others (in world and reading) form their own conclusions based on how they percieve what she is, should be, etc. as well as those biases that come forth when they do so.

[echoingbirdsofprey]

Lightning On My Lips (Every Time You Kiss Me)

11 - All Gas, No Brakes

Pairing: Tyler Owens x OFC Georgia Tennley

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: LOTS OF FLIRTING and touching and teasing, alcohol consumption

A/N: The biggest tease. I think y'all know what's coming after this one. Also this is definitely one of my favorite chapters so hope y'all enjoy it too.

Playlist

Extra Note: You will want to start the song linked below when the dancing scene begins for the full effect.

With Kate and her barrels in tow, they headed to Enid. Tyler kind of enjoyed being the third wheel to the girls’ budding friendship. He felt like maybe, just maybe, Kate could have a best friend again, and Georgia could have a sister who supported her, but he also guessed those could be one in the same for both girls. Tyler knew it had been traumatic for Kate, losing her friends and boyfriend at such a crucial moment in her life. He didn't have to ask. They didn't have to talk about it. There was an understanding there that Tyler felt he needed to leave alone for now. With Georgia, all he knew of her old friend, Maisie, was that they'd grown apart after she stopped barrel racing. He knew how awful her sister was to her though, now. She’d shared texts that her sister had sent that really cemented that she hated Tyler, and that she thought Georgia was being a child. Tyler believed now that Georgia was just lost after that tornado had taken her father. She felt like she had no direction, so when Tyler came into her life, she clung onto him so bad, and that obviously hurt her sister. There were faults from both parties.

Georgia, as always, was impressed with Tyler's ingenuity. He'd somehow come up with another trailer while her and Kate had been packing up some of her research, and by the silence beside her, she guessed he was trying to figure out the mechanics of how it could all work. When they got to Enid there was a whole host of humans awaiting them. Tyler's crew, still including Ben, surprisingly, as well as Kasey and Cory. Georgia felt like she hadn't seen them in years even though it had been less than a week. They both hugged her tight at the same time, before letting her go with wide smirks. 

“So, is there something going on between you and Tyler and did you fuck him yet?” Kasey asked and Georgia shook her head with a smile.

“Yes...we're tryin’ to figure out what exactly is it...no we did not fuck yet.” She said and the two other girls laughed as the trio turned, arm in arm, and joined the Tornado Wranglers. 

“We've been driving around in the van with Dexter and Dani. You missed a big one. I'm not as good with the photos as you.” Cory said, handing Georgia her camera. She'd wondered where it had ended up. Luckily it had been packed in it's bag just before they got rolled so it was pretty well protected. She looked through the most recent photos and they were all great.

“You're not bad though. Keep tryin’ and you'll get it.” Georgia said, giving Cory back the camera. Lily was showing Kate what they'd missed and Tyler was talking to Boone about new rockets. Boone got excited and as he turned he saw Georgia. He jogged to her and hugged her, in normal Boone fashion.

“Hey, Gee. You doin’ okay?” He asked as he pulled away, but kept his hands on her upper arms. She smiled at him. She appreciated that Boone had always been so welcoming to her. He could be rude to her, especially after everything that had happened with Tyler’s last time rodeoing and what he went through for recovery, but she figured it would never occur to Boone to be that way. 

“I’m good, Boone.” She said and then Boone turned to Tyler and clapped him on the shoulder. “So uh, what’s up with you two? You back together?” He asked, and everyone stopped in their tracks. Dexter, who was taking a sip of coffee, nearly spit it out. Dani almost choked on the sandwich that she was finishing. Ben’s wide eyed stare connected with Boone’s and then Tyler’s. Lily snickered and bumped elbows with Kate. Kasey and Cory both couldn’t help the laughter that they had dissolved into. Tyler swallowed hard and took a deep breath before his gaze locked on Georgia’s. She left it up to him to answer and he knew that.

“Somethin’ like that.” He said and everyone stayed quiet, but there were pretty big smiles on their faces, including Kate. She was happy Georgia had taken her own advice. 

Both crews got to work on data analysis for Kate’s barrels of sodium polyacrylate. Tyler had gotten that new model up and running just like he said he would and they tweaked it here and there, trying to find the right balance. He figured out a way that might work to blow the lids off the barrels from inside the cab of the truck, so that they wouldn't lose any of the sodium polyacrylate mixture and they would stay safe inside the truck.

“We’re gonna need to test this out in the field. We need charges for the barrel lids.” Tyler said and Kate’s expression went from focus to elation. She knew she’d made the right choice, deciding to go with his crew instead of going back to StormPAR. She felt bad leaving Javi, but she just couldn’t keep working for a crew that wasn’t in it to help the people. 

🌪⛈️🌪

Tyler felt like he was going insane. For whatever reason today, he felt like everything Georgia did, she was teasing him. Every little swing of her hips as she walked away or toward him. Every little smile, or even worse, when she smirked at him. He wasn't trying to be funny but she laughed at everything that maybe had even a little bit of humor attached to it. And her fucking laugh . It was like a beautiful symphony to his ears. He couldn't get enough. 

Okay, maybe she wasn't teasing him, but he felt like something was behind every little move she made. He felt as though her opening up and being vulnerable with him yesterday had just made her ten times more attractive to him. He'd always wanted to ask about her father but he never dared to. He'd known there was a story there and until now he hadn't poked at her for it. He actually wasn’t sure what prompted her to open up in the first place, but he was thinking maybe Kate had something to do with it.

There wasn’t much for chasing for most of the day, just some small cells that they wouldn’t make it to intercept, but it did give Tyler time to get the mechanism for the barrels figured out. He got it connected to the panel on his truck in no time with Dani and Boone's help. Around dinner time they all headed to a motel for the night, expecting storms to crop up over the next few days that were going to be big. There was a pretty big gathering of other storm chasers at the same motel that night, much like the first night Georgia had reappeared. They were all drinking and partying, enjoying a clear night out before some of the last storms of the season. 

Everyone got cleaned up and headed out to the little community that had been erected In the parking lot. They'd seen the StormPAR crew drive in, but assumed they'd all retired for the night. Kate was kind of hoping she'd see Javi, but she tried not to be disappointed when she didn't. The rest of the Tornado Wranglers had dissipated to different areas of the party. Dexter, Dani, and Ben took seats around the small bonfire that someone had made from a pile of wood they'd found and they were fueling it with paper and beer cans. Kasey and Cory had popped over to the convenience store across the street and came back with a couple of cases of beer, adding it to the ever growing ‘bar’ made up of ten or so coolers filled with ice. Boone was chatting it up with the two guys grilling burgers, dogs, and corn on the cob. Kate, Lily and were smack dab in the middle of the designated ‘dancefloor’, leaving Tyler and Georgia to each other.

They had showered and changed separately, so when Tyler came out in his cowboy hat, his tight blue jeans, and the Tornado Wrangler belt buckle front and center holding in a tucked in green button down shirt, with the sleeves rolled up to show his forearms, Georgia could only stare. She'd opted for jeans as well, her shiny PRCA belt buckle on board. She had on a blue long-sleeved shirt with opaque sleeves with flowers on them. The shirt was a v-neck and a sliver of the skin above her belt, and below her belly button peeked out. It wasn’t a crop top, but it was short and she couldn’t tuck it in. She'd left her hair down and it dried wavy from the shower. Her bangs fell slightly over the right side of her face and Tyler wanted nothing more than to tuck them behind her ear and run his fingers across her pretty rosy cheek. He knew she didn't wear makeup, so the blush in them, he would have to assume, was because of him.

“Want a beer?” He asked, as his hand touched hers. He was going to take her hand and lead her to the coolers, but her attention was split between him and watching Kate and Lily dance. Boone had brought food over for them and himself and he was chowing down on his burger as he nodded at Tyler. Georgia glanced up at Tyler and gave him a thumbs up. He brushed his fingers across her lower back and went to grab beers for them. He grabbed a bottle for each of them, twisting the tops off as he walked back. He handed her one and took a heavy swig from his own.

“Thirsty, Arkansas ?” She mused and he raised a brow at the nickname. 

“I remember the first time you called me that.” He said softly as he switched hands on his beer, making the move to place his other hand on her back. He let his fingers slide down the curve of her spine slowly as they both drank in comfortable silence. He stopped at her belt and hooked his thumb under it. She turned slightly toward him, taking a long sip of her beer. It had been too long since she drank and she was unfortunately already starting to feel lightheaded. It didn't help that she didn't have anything in her stomach either. 

He cocked a hip and gazed down into her pretty blue eyes, shrouded slightly under her curtain of hair and the nearly faded evening light. She reached up and took his hat, placing it on her own head and taking another sip.

“Y’know you owe me two now.” He said as he pressed in closer to her. She smirked and lowered her gaze to his belt.

“Two, what?” She asked, mocking innocence. She tilted her head and his tongue darted out to wet his lips before he swallowed hard. 

“Two rides, darlin’.” He said, his lips curling up on one side. He leaned down, lips just brushing the shell of her ear. His voice was husky and low. “And if you feel like I remember, I ain't gonna last more than eight seconds.”

Georgia's heart nearly beat right out of her chest, as Tyler took his hat back, but before putting it back on his own head, he used it to shield their faces from everyone else as he leaned in for a kiss. His lips on hers sent sparks throughout her entire being and a fire ignited in her core that was bound to turn into an inferno by the end of the night if they kept this shit up. When they parted, they both had wide grins plastered on their faces, and empty beers in their hands. 

“You want another or would you like to dance?” He asked and she motioned to the makeshift dance floor. The beginning guitar chords to “Think I'm In Love With You” by Chris Stapleton rang out from the speaker and as the snare and kick drum came in to make a slow rhythm, he took her hands in his and guided her back and forth. 

Baby...do you ever wonder...whatever happened way back when or if I'll see you again.

Tyler twirled her slow and pulled her back closer, their hips meeting and swaying back and forth.

And maybe...if you ever wonder...aw you might wish things could change. I know this might sound strange but...

Tyler mouthed the next words as he glanced down at Georgia wrapped in his arms, the green in his eyes catching the gentle flickering light from the fire and the other chasers KC lights.

I think I'm in love with you. I didn't know it at the time. I know what I wanna do. It's makin’ me lose my mind.

He sent her for another twirl and this time pulled her back so that her back was against his chest. He wrapped his arms around her, holding her close as they swayed back and forth for the next few lines.

I thought about thinkin’ it through, and everytime I do, I find, I wanna make your dreams comes true. I think I'm in love with you. I'm in love with you.

His hands slid out of hers and down to her hips as there was a brief pause in the lyrics. His fingers tightened and his hips pressed into her ass as she ran her hands up her own chest, up to his shoulders briefly before letting them travel down to where his hands were on her hips. As the singer began again, she closed her eyes, continuing to let him guide her. The energy in the singer's voice picked up.

Oh, you are the power over me. You are the truth that I believe. You are my life, you are my world. You are the air I'm breathin’, girl. You are the light I wanna see. You're all of everything to me. You are the reasons I am, woman!

Tyler ceased their movements for a moment with the music, curling his head down and letting his lips grazing her neck, and then he picked up again, slow with the music, as Georgia's fingers intertwined with his once more. She tilted her head to allow him more access to her neck and he took the offering. His mouth was hot and wet on her skin, sending shivers down her spine. She couldn't help herself as she rolled her hips against him. As the lyrics began again, he turned her in his arms and her hands easily hooked around the back of his neck.

I think I'm in love with you. I didn't know it at the time. I know what I wanna do. It's making me lose my mind. I thought about thinkin’ it through and every time I do I find, I wanna make your dreams come true. 

“ I think I'm in love with you...” He sang softly with the song but she knew it was meant for her, lust behind half hooded eyes meeting. As the song began to wind down, his hands stayed at her lower back, his thumbs hooked in her belt and gently pushing her back and forth against his hips. Her hands left the back of his neck and took a soft hold of his face, gently begging him to kiss her. He obliged readily, as a soft press of his lips became his tongue tangling with hers, the neediness evident in all of his muscles. He couldn't get her any closer but he wanted her even closer. Another song began and they parted, deciding it was very much time to take this encounter elsewhere.

[chaifootsteps]

Hi!! Same anon with a foot in the fandom and the shipping servers of hazbin here! (The one who told you about how everyone of the creative side that ISN'T always blowing steam up Dani's ass, HATES HER GUTS). Literally, SO MANY active people in the fandom have her quietly muted. Another fun fact, Husker//dust is actually one of THE MOST DEVISIVE ships in the fandom. Hazbin fandom is sort of broken up into ships. Husker//dust is the loudest but NOT the biggest: just look at AO3: Radio//dust fics: 2,024 Husker//dust fics:  809 

Val//vox: 583 Radio//husk: 504 It's not overwhelmingly more popular than any other ship.

Here is the issue, for as many people that ADORE Husker//dust, it is as many people's ALL TIME NOTP. I can't tell you how many creators i know who have had both the word and tag blocked for years (and have been PISSED the last year how the husker//dust people stopped tagging their ship because they were "sure it was cannon so everyone just has to deal with it."

It isn't just a petty ship war reason, most hazbin fans are very pro multiship. It's the fact that the spindle crew's love of husker//dust lead to all of the fandom's number 1 bullies and bootlickers to hop on that bandwagon. The husker//dust fandom is UNBEARABLE to interact with because it has captured all of the cloutchasers, Viv ass blowers, fandom police and 13 year olds in the greater hazbin fandom and put them in one place. It is single handedly the most toxic section of the Hazbin fandom. By having it blocked people like dani just DISAPPEAR out of your feed. (unless you also follow sto//litz) A lot of creators have had very personal negative interactions with the Husker//dust fandom and it soured the ship for them (even if they were once into it). They used to regularly hop onto other ships' fan art and say "do husker//dust next!" there was an OVERWHELMING wave of fandom harassment in 2020-2021 lead by people with husker//dust bios explaining why all other ships that weren't cha//ggie and husker//dust were problematic and bad (and they did this by harassing some of the BIGGEST artists and writers from other ships. Constantly. In call outs, in the comments of their works, using their ship tags, etc) Tiktok was FULL of videos making fun of all ships but Husker//dust while literally stealing fanart of creators to make fun of their ships. (examples of videos: a HUGE radio//duster's gorgeous ship art over a soundtrack of barfing noises or with cartoon edits of characters like sponge bob pointing at the art and freaking out about how hideous it is)

I see a lot of people upset with the art style of the new show, a lot of people upset about the voice actors, a lot of people upset about the direction of the plot but you'd be surprise how many people are okay with all of that but their ONE straw for dropping the series was 'if husker//dust became cannon or teased and I can't avoid it's fandom anymore on twitter' So tl:dr: promoting one ship after letting the fandom go unchecked and wild for 4 years wasn't the great show promotion they thought it was either. I think they thought it was THE favourite ship of the fandom simply because they are the loudest and most drama prone and because Viv only follows the accounts that idolize her and therefore ship Husker//dust because it was the 'most likely ship to be cannon compliant and GOD FORBID you ship something that isn't cannon or part of Vivzie's grand vison)

Well...shit! Looks like we're about to get Stolitz 2.0

Everyone cross their fingers and pray that the comparison ends exactly there, because if one of these characters extorts sex out of the other, I don't know what we're all going to do.

[kimwexlers-brownhair]

Hello Kim ! I love that you're a Sansa fan, I was wondering what your favourite Sansa quote is? And why do you think she is so hated compared to characters like Jon, Dany, Arya, etc ? Thank you xx

Thank you for asking about my favorite child! It's hard to narrow down a quote as my absolute favorite. I love it whenever she's sneaky about manipulating idiots like Joffrey without ever dropping her armor of courtesy. "He is a fool, you're so clever to see it! He'd make a much better fool than a knight" about Hollard, and "“They say my brother Robb always goes where the fighting is thickest. Though he's older than Your Grace, to be sure. A man grown” are perfect examples.

They're also examples of why so many fans dislike her. She's too subtle for them, and too nuanced (maybe the most nuanced character in the series?). The dislike started when she was framed in the very beginning as Arya's foil, when her motives were easy to read: marry the prince and live like in romantic stories of chivalry. Now we're all obviously supposed to be frustrated with her, as we would be if our little sister or daughter fell for such an obvious douchebag but had a head too full of fairy tales to listen to reason. That frustration doesn't mean we hate them; in fact, it's usually so frustrating because you love the little twits. Yet because Sansa was set up as a foil to Arya, the underdog tomboy to cheer for, most viewers projected those affectionate feelings onto her and Sansa was left as the antagonist.

In season 2, we get nonstop action, with Arya, Jon, and Dany slicing through folks and burning them....and Sansa just seems to sit there sad and mealy-mouthed in King's Landing? Weak!

So many fans were attracted to the pageantry and sensory overload Game of Thrones gave them, and to take the time to understand someone as quiet and diffident as Sansa appeared was just not going to happen.

Ultimately, Gillian Flynn said it best:  “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.” People watched GoT and decided for a woman to be equal, she had to commit violence, just like how men assert their masculinity. This hurts both Sansa and Arya in the show, I think. Sansa, with her subtlety and traditionally feminine interests, combined with the self-centered streak she showed in season one because God Forbid a teenager be self-centered especially since Arya isn't, was deemed too weak and annoying. Arya is the badass little ninja, but in the books, her descent into her darkest impulses because of the hell she's been through is...Not Good. Not empowering. She's a child. Sansa is a child. But because the way Arya survives and loses much of herself is cool and masculine-coded in the show, it's okay to rally around her. With Sansa, it's weak.

Unfortunately, a lot of Sansa fans go too far in the other direction, which I think is important to note. I've said this in another post, I know, but I just gotta repeat a distinct memory from when the show was at its height. More people were getting into Sansa, and her popularity was rising. Someone dared post their artwork of Sansa in armor and holding a sword. The reaction was ridiculous. "You're missing the whole point of Sansa's character if you give her armor and a sword!" First of all, Sansa is the most adaptable character in the series. Much like Elizabeth I, she would absolutely do that to boost morale at the very least. Second of all, people love to put women in boxes; to quote Succession, a lot of fans can't "hold a whole woman in their head."

Sansa is an example of "safe" femininity; she'll always be good and sweet and pure, a nice escape from mean women like Cersei, butch Brienne, tomboy Arya. Suddenly all the women just become these traits and aren't allowed to grow past them or learn to love other things. Maybe Sansa does learn to pick up a sword willingly, and finds out it's...kinda fun! Empowering, even!

No, there's nothing wrong with loving to sew, sing, and dream of romance. However, there is harm in internalizing that as the only things women can and should do. There's just something so infantalizing about the treatment of Sansa by some fans: "Our little Sansa always behaves like a lady".

I love Sansa because she isn't always likable. She has a lot of internalized misogyny, and she takes it out on Arya. She's so self-centered in her desires that she tells Cersei about Ned. She's also a child who we can safely assume was more strongly discouraged not to end up like Arya than, say, Arya was. This is her arc. I hate that it happens because of trauma, but her growth stems from Ned's death because it shows that deep down, this child wants home and family more than pagaentry. But because she couldn't say it with a sword, fans missed this.

[esther-dot]

I feel very conflicted and I know I’ll get hate if I post this on my blog but I just want feedback. I loved D for years after watching the show until season 8 came out and I felt betrayed. I thought it was out of character. I wanted happy romantic J x D. I saw myself in D. I’ve read the books at long last over the past year and I know I have confirmation bias. I love Sansa too. And I see myself in her as well. Deep down I know that I am far more like book!Sansa than I am like the character D really is and that the D in my head is not truly who the character is. I want to love Jonsa. I think that could be such a happy end for Sansa and I want to want that (that being specifically Jonsa; of course I want a happy end for her). But I don’t know how to shake my attachment to D and the character I want her to be. I can’t let go and stop projecting despite consciously being aware that she is not truly very much like me at all. I think perhaps because Sansa’s arc has not yet had as much direct payoff. She has not yet been able to claim power in the way D has and I think thus identifying myself with her may cast a light on uncomfortable feelings of helplessness within myself. But I’m not really sure. All I know is that logically I wish for Sansa to be my favorite and I want to love Jonsa instead of JxD and I know Sansa is quite a bit like me but I just can’t seem to embrace that. I’m not sure if I am looking for any sort of advice or wisdom or perhaps just wanting to put my thoughts out there. I’m curious about anything at all that you might have to say

I have my opinions and preferences, but there’s a difference between emotionally connecting and intellectually engaging. I’ve read loads of classic novels because I want to know what they say, why they matter, but I often fail to find them personally meaningful. That’s simply due to life experience which is why certain things resonate with me or don’t. I’ve found, none of us read the same novel, even if we agree on certain aspects or characters, there’s always something else that hits us differently. That’s not an indictment or vindication of a person because I’ve revisited books years later and my response is wildly different.

The book didn’t change, life changed me so I read it differently this time around. That's a good thing to bear in mind when we're talking about the same series for years on end, there's room for us to evolve our stances because we're changing. I leave room for that with others, I permit myself the same understanding. I hope you do that for yourself too!

Also, my sensibilities aren’t Martin’s, so even if I make arguments about why a certain thing shouldn’t/should happen, I know it still might or might not. Jon and Dany isn’t a universally accepted pairing for no reason. And even though most of what I say about Dany I tag with “anti,” that’s just because I want people to be able to avoid it if they’d like. I don’t hate her, I have a lot of sympathy for her. I think her story is full of tragedy, so I don’t think there’s anything weird about reading the books and your heart going out to her. Many, many fans identify with her, some because they too are abuse survivors. That’s why a lot of fans connected so deeply with show Sansa as well. I was frustrated before the GoT finale because the people who argued with us about Dany were actively defending her burning people alive and denying where her story was going, but after GoT ended, I went into the Dany tag and saw a few posts by more normal fans who simply loved a girl who had inspired them and helped them in their own struggles, so I understand who she is to people even if she isn’t that to me.

I loved D for years after watching the show until season 8 came out and I felt betrayed.

This was a pretty universal sentiment, and I felt betrayed too (although for different reasons, coming from a completely different direction), so I sympathize.

Deep down I know that I am far more like book!Sansa than I am like the character D really is and that the D in my head is not truly who the character is.

I think the “problem” (not really a problem, but we’ll call it that) is that Martin wants his characters to be more than one thing. I’ve said in the past, he has quite an expansive view of what one person can encompass which means, I look at, let’s say, the Hound quite differently than many in the fandom. Every bad thing I have ever said about him is true, but there are good things about him that are true too, and Martin wants both to coexist. That’s true for Tyrion (another villain), Jaime, Theon….it’s true for Dany too. She’s even more enmeshed with good things, as more good desires, than those guys, so it’s easy to let it eclipse everything else. I’ve pointed out before that with Dany, it’s always a one-two. She “saves” people, then we discover it wasn’t salvation at all. You have to be open to questioning her to realize that though.

The way the show framed her, a lot of people saw themselves or who they wanted to be in Dany, and even now, I’ll hear people occasionally compare themselves to Dany in a positive way, because for years, she was a #girlboss. We might have a lot of skepticism around that idea now, realizing it was to hide what her story actually was, but it resonated because, who wouldn’t want to be capable of fighting injustice? Of walking into a situation and taking control of it and rectifying wrongs? The problem is, in the books, we’re presented with the reality that her methods aren’t improving things, and in the show, they mute that as much as possible. When the author is trying to show the devastation of war and the showrunners opted to glorify it, the audience is gonna have a reaction that’s no longer compatible with the original intent. For instance, Arya killing all the Freys. That’s presented as a bad ass moment, that’s their view, so why would a fan realize, “but over here vengeance / unnecessary bloodshed is bad.” It’s careless storytelling, but D&D were also dishonest too. They included certain moments to justify the ending, but undermined it so fans wouldn't track it, rewrote characters to make them obsequious to Dany. And then they drowned it all in bs interviews / commentary, loads and loads of hype and marketing....they twisted it completely out of any discernible shape. Confusion is an understandable response to such contradictory nonsense. People I'm a fan of made sense of it, predicted it, but I do think y'all were lied to by the showrunners which annoys me to no end.

But I don’t know how to shake my attachment to D and the character I want her to be.

That's love though. I've experienced this so often in real life, wanting good for someone I care about, desperately wanting them to see the self-destructive patterns they have, and not being able to get them to change anything and learning to either accept where they are/who they are, or learning, I can't accept it and ending the relationship because it wasn't healthy for me to be involved. Martin loves his villains, Tyrion is his fav, he wants you to care, that's where he'll get the tragedy in Dany's ending rather than it simply being a clear cut good vs evil ending. I think he wants us to have sympathy on both sides of the coming struggle, and to have fans see the heroic path Dany could have and watch her fail to follow it and walk down a path she didn't have to choose...it's gonna make it heart-wrenching rather than cliche. I think you may be almost just where Martin wants you.

I think perhaps because Sansa’s arc has not yet had as much direct payoff. She has not yet been able to claim power in the way D has and I think thus identifying myself with her may cast a light on uncomfortable feelings of helplessness within myself. But I’m not really sure.

Obviously, I don't know you, but from what I've seen people write about Sansa, I do think her relative powerlessness is a major detractor for fans. For some it makes her boring, for others, they despise her because they're so frustrated by her not doing something. But it's a dose of reality in this fantasy world to have a character constrained by her situation and her life dictated by her gender. I'd argue that Sansa is a more impressive character for the mercy and bravery she shows even thought she is a captive herself, but I understand that's not as thrilling as other characters' stories.

I want to love Jonsa instead of JxD

Sansa has had a few crushes which are fairly...I’ll say, detached from reality. She connects to the characters emotionally by imagining them as romantic figures, less a tangible knowing and loving the individual. It’s all very daydreamy, but mainly, she's been the object of desire for creeps. So, while I disagree with them, there is a part of me that understands why fans aren't looking for her to have an actual romance because the way it has existed in her story thus far isn't tangible for her or rewarding, and of course, there's her age. Dany on the other hand, as young as she was when this story began, has had sexual partners she loves. We say Drogo was an abusive POS, we know Daario doesn't truly care for her, so I understand, with one part of my mind, that fans are looking for her to have a mutual, sexual relationship. If you love Dany, a healthy sexual relationship feels more pressing than one for Sansa, due to past experiences. It feels more appropriate due to her age as well. So, I understand why one can have hooks for you as a fan that the next doesn't. It’s always good to remember though, while we connect to these characters as if they’re people, the author is using them to discuss ideas, and they will experience, or not experience, certain things as a result.

I feel very conflicted and I know I’ll get hate if I post this on my blog but I just want feedback.

I'd like to tell you that isn't the case, but it's probably true. I still get rude messages because I'm a Sansa fan/Jonsa, and I can't imagine a situation like yours, loving both characters and being open to Jonsa but shipping J/D, would allow you to be fully comfortable anywhere. I can't assure you that my corner of the fandom will treat you with the utmost understanding either, so I'm glad you reached out this way and felt safe coming into my inbox. I find talking about things is helpful. There isn't always an answer, but it makes me feel better, so I'm happy to read your thoughts on this even if I can't offer any advice, in the hopes it makes you feel better too. 💗

[popculty]

🎧 New Podcast Episode: Midsommar

After a little unplanned hiatus, we're back with Part 2 of our Halloween crossover event! And, well, Carver and I really put the 'cult' in Popculty with this one, because we are talking Midsommar! (one film by a straight white guy we maybe actually liked??)

In this episode:

Final Girls

exploring grief through horror

good for her (?)

the dark history of dance marathons

Florence Pugh supremacy

Because Flo said, "It's the Year of Dani, bbs" and we mere mortal podcasters follow our May Queen! 🙌🌻👑

Listen now 🎧

Or read the interactive transcript below 👇

SJ: All right, Carver, the time has come-- Gonna talk about Midsommar. There's, like, no summary for this movie. [both laugh] Like, nothing happens! I don't know what to tell you listeners, if you haven't seen it. But basically, it's about Florence Pugh's character, Dani, who has just suffered an incredible loss. She has just lost her sister and her parents to a murder-suicide situation, that's, right off the bat, very intense, very triggering. I would say that's a big trigger warning. She is grieving that, and she has the shittiest boyfriend in the world. Oh my God, Christian suuuuuuuucks.

Carver: Mm-hmm. [laughs]

SJ: He just wants her to get over it and be fine. And he and his friends, who are all working on their masters project, want to go to Sweden to study this, basically, cult-- this commune in rural Sweden at the peak of summer, for the summer solstice. They have this whole ritual and all these customs that this group of college students wants to go and study, and Dani decides to tag along, and...weird shit ensues! [both laugh] That is Midsommar. Like I say, trigger warnings definitely for suicide...um, group sex with a girl of questionable age, I will say...

Carver: Mhm.

SJ: What else? Lots of suicide. Very unpleasant, very unsettling scenes of suicide. Can't emphasize that enough.

Carver: Yes.

SJ: Anything you wanted to add to that?

Carver: That's mostly it. Uh, I mean, also the ableism that we were talking about in Hereditary? Just go ahead and dial that up to eleven.

SJ: Oh, yeah. However, contrary to Hereditary, I really love this movie. I watched it for the first time in theaters and I was like, "Huh. That was interesting. What did I just watch?" It's like two and a half hours of a Swedish folk festival with very disturbing undercurrents. I went for Florence Pugh, which, I mean-- the Pugh in this movie is off the charts amazing. I basically went for her because I had seen her in her first movie, Lady Macbeth. Didn't know what I was getting into. Came away just being like, "I think I liked it ? But I didn't get it at all." And I recently rewatched it at the beginning of this year after I had suffered a loss. And I, for some reason found myself drawn to rewatch this movie. And I have to say it was so cathartic. It really felt like being held in my grief. So that's why I messaged you after I watched it, because I just felt like I finally understood the movie and I appreciated what it had done for me through that viewing experience. That's why I suggested it and why I kind of just, on a whim, was like, "Let's talk about Midsommar. I don't care if it's directed by a white guy!" Because it really moved me. They say what you come to a movie with often affects what you get out of the movie. And I very much had that experience with Midsommar. So that's sort of my context. It just clicked for me this time. What is your experience with this movie?

Carver: I also saw it in theaters right when it came out. I think I saw it if not opening day, I saw it opening week, because at the time, I was very impressed by Hereditary. I think now it's easy to see it as a drop in the bucket of these think-piece horror films. But at the time that it came out, it was really something that we weren't seeing a ton of. So I had been anticipating this movie. I had seen the trailers. I was ready for it. Um, that opening scene, as someone who has witnessed suicide attempts by loved ones, was so hard that I nearly left. At the scene where you see the sister, I was like, internally, 'Do I get up now and go?' And I think it is a testament to the movie that I did stay and that I was able to enjoy it, even if I was in a state of panic for most of it. Coming back to rewatch it, I didn't realize how adverse I was to rewatching it originally. I actually have been trying to watch this movie every night since you and I recorded last, and I was not able to make myself rewatch it until this morning.

SJ: Oh, really? Oh my god, you watched it this morning?

Carver: Yes.

SJ: Oh no, you didn't have to put yourself through that! I'm sorry!

Carver: I don't even think I realized it. It was just, 'Oh, you know, it's just not the time. It's not the time.' And rewatching it, knowing what happens did make it a lot easier. I think I also was able to notice a lot more in that scene, that really takes the story full circle.

SJ: Yes.

Carver: And I still really enjoy it. All of the elements of grief are there. Uh, the thing that gets to me most is what you were talking about earlier: Christian is such a bad boyfriend.

SJ: He's the worst! But not in a super obvious way, right? Not in the typical way we see abusive boyfriends, but he is so neglectful, does not care about what she's going through. He is surrounded by friends that are pretty shitty too, who are like, "Oh, just break up with her and find someone who actually likes sex." His dude bro friends are the worst, too. And they're just enabling him to be shittier.

Carver: They're also not the type of guys you would normally associate with that behavior. These are PhD students! They're educated, they're woke-- Well, some of them are. Mark is not.

SJ: Oh, yeah. Will Poulter's character. I mean, can he ever play a good guy? I don't think so. With that face?

Carver: He's going to play an idiot. That's the role he is given in this movie, is the idiot or the fool. And that is how I associate him, in film at least.

SJ: Oh, totally. He looks like the mean kid from Toy Story brought to life.

Carver: [laughs] Very Sid. I can see it.

SJ: But yeah, so Christian isn't-- It's a more subtle version of abusive, toxic behavior than we're used to seeing. It's not in your face. It's not like he beats her. It's shittier in a much subtler way, in like a gaslighty way.

Carver: Mm-hmm. In a 'your feelings are your fault and my feelings are your fault...'

SJ: He constantly makes her feel like she's holding him back because she's having a panic attack, or because she's grieving, or because she's the sad girl at the party-- Ugh, that's the worst! I hate that.

Carver: I was discussing with my roommate earlier that I think the kindest thing he could have done would have been to break up with her. Because then at least she would have had that anger to fuel and push her forward in ways that I don't always think grief can do. I think the anger part of the grief cycle is one of the things that, for me at least, will pull me forward and keep the momentum of healing going, because you've got that fire. Whereas grief on its own just feels like something that's pulling you down. And I think you can feel that in Dani's character this whole time. What she needed was just a little bit of fire to get her going.

SJ: Heh. There's some foreshadowing for ya. [Carver chortles] For anyone who feels the same way we do about Christian, I highly recommend and will link in the shownotes, someone on Twitter made a supercut of the movie that's just Dani looking at Christian like he's the shittiest boyfriend in the world, set to Wii music. It's *amazing*. [both laugh] It's the only cut of this movie you really need to see, if you haven't seen it. That's a big thing right off the bat-- He is so unsupportive of her in her grief. And you can tell even in one of those opening scenes where she's just sobbing in his arms and he's just sort of awkwardly holding her, like he just wants this to be over. And then you contrast that to the group wailing scene, which we will talk about more, of course, because it's my favorite. But the contrast between the way those women hold her and the way that he barely holds her is striking.

SJ: I wanted to ask you, because I was trying to think of another horror movie that takes place entirely during the day... Is this the first and only?

Carver: It is not the first. I think another-- as well as just a major influence that Ari Aster has said himself for this movie-- is the Wickerman, which is Folk Horror, this is Folk Horror... They have a lot of the same tropes. But I would say as far as movies that have been made recently, using it this way, where the sun is kind of symbolism-- the light is part of what is being foreshadowed in the opening panel... Because I will say something I noticed watching both of these movies is that Ari Aster loves to tell you everything that's going to happen so early, and then just still somehow surprise you with it at the end.

SJ: Oh, absolutely. I do really appreciate his foreshadowing. One of my favorite images of foreshadowing in film is from Midsommar, and it's that shot of Florence Pugh's character curled up on the bed in a fetal position, facing the wall. The camera makes a slow pan into the room, and above her is this giant painting of a girl with blonde hair, wearing a crown, opposite a large brown bear, holding its face and looking into its eyes. [laughs]

Carver: Mm-hmm.

SJ: If you know how this movie ends, you are both laughing and your jaw is, like, on the ground. It literally tells you how this movie is going to end, but then it just takes you on a ride to get there. It's the kind of movie that I think does benefit from having watched it once before, because then you can pick up on all those little clues he places throughout, which just enhances the viewing for me. Did you find that as well?

Carver: I did. So the first time I watched it, I remembered the bear from that painting. But on this watching, after the May Festival, when she witnesses the event with Christian and the naked women, when she is preparing herself to see that, the position she puts her body in as she leans over to look into the keyhole is the same position that little girl's body is when she looks into the bear's face in that painting.

SJ: [gasp] Right!

Carver: And her body language is so intentional when she makes that motion that it's just so clear to me that that was absolutely on purpose.

SJ: Oh, yeah. Again, Aster is very intentional with every shot of his films. I think you see that really clearly in this one. If anything, it's even more intricate and detailed than Hereditary. It simultaneously feels like basically we're just on Florence Pugh's face for two and a half hours, as she's experiencing whatever the fuck this is. So, in some ways, it feels almost like a documentary. But it also is a meticulously thought-out and staged film. There's so much symbolism, it's *so* precise in its imagery...

Carver: There are all those paintings on the walls in the room that they sleep in. And again, on this watching, I noticed that the mural above Christian's bed is the ritual that he takes part in later, with all of the women and the two in the middle.

SJ: Yeah, it is.

Carver: And I know all of that was hand-painted. All of those sets and things, hand painted. All of the clothes were embroidered. And actually, I was listening to something today-- They were trying to hire people from the area where they were shooting, so all of those clothes were designed and sewn by a Scandinavian woman. And it's very clear that those are so artfully designed and thoughtfully done.

SJ: It really comes through. Those sets do not feel like a typical Hollywood set. They feel like they were built by the people who lived there. There is just something very different about them. And the clothes do feel like they were hand-stitched, handmade, hand-dyed. I think it adds more of a natural feel. You don't feel like you're watching a Hollywood movie.

Carver: It's so polished, but it's also such a world that feels lived-in. There are these dramatic cuts, these swipes, there is this editing that is so hands-on, so purposeful, to bring you these emotions. Whereas the situations they're in, as extreme as they are, I think most people can relate to a time they've felt this way or that way. And I think anyone who's been through a bad breakup feels for Dani in this.

SJ: [stifling a laugh] A lot of people online are like, "Take your worst ex to this movie." [both laugh] I mean, I think we have to talk about the Florence Pugh of it all.

Carver: Oh, yeah.

SJ: Because she *carries this movie*. This would not have worked without her, I really, truly feel. Like, I'm trying to imagine any other actress of the same age in that role, and I just don't think it would have compelled me the way she compels me. I go off about her a little bit in my Black Widow episode-- We both love her, she's incredible, and she's such a naturalistic actor. She has no formal training, so she just kind of shows up and embodies the character, and she reacts the way that an actual person would. She's never thinking ahead to what the other actor's next line is going to be. She is so organic. I don't think there's any other style of acting that could have worked for this role. You really have to have that. And I can't think of anyone else like her that could have pulled that off. So I really just have to say, this is a masterclass in acting-- not even acting, it's like a masterclass in *being*-- from Florence Pugh. It is peak Frowny Face Florence Pugh. [Carver laughs] I think the regular cut is almost 3 hours long, and didn't have time, but I still want to watch the director's cut, which is like another half hour. This movie is ostensibly so long, and yet it goes by so quickly for me because I'm just mesmerized, really, by her and her performance. She just guides you through, as the viewer. This should be so boring, like, nothing happens! But I'm just riveted by her.

Carver: She has the exact opposite issue that we had with Charlie in Hereditary, where all of the emotions with that character were at arm's length, whereas there isn't a moment in this film where you aren't feeling what Dani is. And I mean, all of that has to do with The Florence Pout. [both laugh] But there are just so many instances that are great in this, even when she acts slightly out of character to what we know of her. Like when the group that came with Pele's friend have left, and she says, "You know, Simon left without Connie." And Christian's like, "Oh, that's so terrible, that's so terrible." And she's like, "I could see you doing something like that." [laughs] And I was like...

SJ: Yes! It's such a relatively tame line, but savage for her.

Carver: Oh, absolutely! And he takes it that way. She always has kid gloves on with him. Everything is her fault, every issue in the relationship she sees as her contribution, when she has this person who is effectively using those insecurities to manipulate her, when he doesn't know what he wants. They say in the beginning, "You need to get off the fence with this"--

SJ: Mhm.

Carver: And he refuses to.

SJ: He drags her along, and you see how it drags her down. Like you said, it would have been a relief if he would just fucking break up with her. But he won't even give her that, and it's so selfish of him, because he doesn't know what he wants, but he's going to hold onto her anyway. And from the opening scene of this movie to the closing, you just feel for her all the way. You feel exactly what she's feeling. It's such a testament to the remarkable performance she gives. Because like I said, I just don't see this movie working nearly as well with literally anyone else I can imagine in the role. I mean, even the most accomplished Oscar-winning actors-- it would be too untrue, too formulaic. It would be something we've already seen them do before. But she brings this freshness that really grounds the film. So, genuinely, I have to give her like 90% of the credit for this movie working for me.

Carver: Absolutely. Yes, there are so many wonderful things about this movie, all of the purposeful things that Ari Aster does. But that would all fall flat if you didn't have this person that was able to just grab your audience and push the emotion in their face. And I think she does that no matter what she's given. I do think the movie I was telling you about, Fighting with My Family is one of the silliest things I've seen her in...

SJ: Yeah, for sure. But she has the range, right?

Carver: My roommate and I were *crying* when she gets to go to Monday Night Raw! [both laughing] The culmination of that movie, when she is getting to be a professional wrestler-- Sobs in my living room! Just because we care so much about what happens to her. And again, it's because she is so good at what she does.

SJ: Absolutely. I've seen her in literally every genre and she just kills it in everything. And I can't remember the last time I saw someone that young do what she's doing. I mean, she's 26 years old, and in just the past five years or so, she has created a body of work on film-- and in television-- that tops most actors who have been working for decades. She just elevates everything that she's in. And even beyond her talent, I'm just really impressed by how discerning she is with the projects she does and how many women directors she's already worked with, in her very short career. That's actually depressingly rare for actors of any gender to have that awareness of gender equity behind the camera. [sigh] I could talk about Florence Pugh all day. How much time you got? [both laugh]

Carver: I know this is sort of a controversial topic around this movie... Do you consider this to be a Good for Her film?

SJ: Oh, my gosh, [nervous chuckle] That is so complicated... So, yeah, when everyone was watching this movie, I would say like 70% of the takes online were a variation of the Good for Her meme, right? Viewing this as a female empowerment film. Um... [laughs] Okay. That, to me, is-- Are you familiar with the Broke, Woke, Bespoke meme?

Carver: Somewhat...?

SJ: It has variations. Like, Galaxy Brain is another variation.

Carver: Okay.

SJ: Basically, you have levels of takes, and you start with your most basic take, and then you sort of elevate to the 'Galaxy Brain' or 'Bespoke' take. If I'm applying that to this movie, the reactions that I've seen are, like, 'Broke'-- which is "Good for Her"-- and that's just your base-level, knee-jerk sort of response, not thinking about it too deeply, kind of thing. And sure-- Is it satisfying to watch her burn her shitty ex-boyfriend alive in a bear costume? Yes. [Carver chuckles] Not gonna lie. And the way that she's literally crowned a queen, and it's like the movie is saying, "She was a queen all along and you should have treated her like one, asshole." There's definitely a satisfying element to the end. But, uh, does anyone really believe that Dani is in a healthy place, physically or emotionally, by the end of the movie? You know, to me, that ending is symbolic, the fire is symbolic. This movie is not actually suggesting or approving that you burn your ex alive as a legitimate form of closure. I understand the Good for Her take, but let's think a little deeper about it.

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: I might agree in passing, I might retweet a Good for Her meme. But no, if I'm thinking about it critically, not at all. She's achieved freedom in some sense, but I don't think the movie is suggesting that it's healthy or actually good for her in any way. I think she's just traded one form of abuse for another. And I think a lot of people miss that.

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: The other take that people have-- it's like a more woke take, this would be the next level-- is that, 'Oh, this is a movie that's condoning cults! This is cult propaganda. Wake up, sheeple!' You know? But I think the way the cult is portrayed is kind of a warning to us. They have all this rhetoric that sounds really good, but then it's all proven to be empty or false. So I prefer the Bespoke take, which is viewing this movie as like a PSA for how cults prey upon emotionally, or in other ways, vulnerable people. That's exactly where we find Dani in the beginning of this movie. She is prime cult bait. You know, so I don't see it as this healthy evolution for her. I see it as an evolution of sorts-- healthier in some ways, but... I mean, how do you feel about the end message?

Carver: I think a Good for Her message is complicated for me, because we've talked a bit about how much we hate Christian, he's a terrible boyfriend. Also, if you think critically about what has happened to him-- how he is given a drug he doesn't really want to take and put in a position that he doesn't necessarily want to be in and doesn't have the faculty to fully consent to, and then he's burnt alive for it-- I don't love that being how one of the first major depictions of a male survivor is shown.

SJ: Sure.

Carver: Also, I, uh, think it's easy to see it as a Good for Her if you think of it in the context of the beginning of the film to when the credits roll. But the moment you think of what this character is going to go through when the credits start to roll, when the movie is over...

SJ: Mhm...

Carver: How does she get home? They have said that they bring in new people to expand their gene pool. And so, at least in my mind, forced impregnation is in the future for Dani. I think the real terror for that character starts when the movie ends.

SJ: I would agree. And, you know, that's a pretty unsettling place to come away from. So I think a lot of people just sort of gloss over it and they'd rather see the female empowerment piece of it, but it's true-- Let's think about this. Practically speaking, what would the next scene be in that movie, if it didn't cut to black? I mean... it's not gonna be all sunshine and roses forever.

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: Florence Pugh was on a recent episode of the Off Menu podcast, and she shared some really interesting insights about Dani and the experience of playing her-- a lot of which I think echo our thoughts.

Male host: What do you think happens to her (Dani)?

Florence Pugh: So, she's had a psychotic break. That's what's happened. When she sees her boyfriend having, um, that orgy in the temple, I think that's like one of the last things that she can probably deal with. And I think through the mushroom trip and the this trip and the that trip... I think when everything starts-- for example, when she's on the throne with her flower dress and she's given the choice to either choose her boyfriend or the other sacrifice-- I always took it as like, she was kind of gone by that point, after all the pampering and the weirdness and the oddities of what was happening. So when she looks at him, I never thought she looked at him to kill him. I thought it was more of like, she was in a different place. She was in a different-- She wasn't her anymore. And she almost looks at him as if she's getting that recognition. She knows that it's someone she loves, and she knows that it's someone that's hurt her. So that whole zoom-in, for me, was her processing deep, deep from wherever it is that she's got lost to, that that is someone who has hurt her. And then it snaps, and then he's been chosen. So I always thought that she survived. I don't think she's probably ever going to come back, because to come back from a psychotic break, you have to have deep, deep treatment and work that obviously those people don't have--

Male Host: Yeah, they're not offering that.

Florence Pugh: No, they're not offering that. But I do think that they care for her, and I do think she's-- in a weird, twisted, horrible way-- she's in a place that people actually want her to be there. And I do think she will be getting respect and love, in a weird way, there. I don't think she's ever coming back from this break... It's funny, when I did it, I was so, um, wrapped up in her-- and I've never had this ever before with any of my characters-- I was so wrapped up in her that when I was making the movie, there were so many places that I had to go to, because I'd never played someone who was in that much pain before. And I would put myself in really shit situations that other actors maybe don't need to. do. But I would just be imagining the worst things... Because each day the content would be getting weirder and harder to do, I was putting things in my head that were just getting worse and more bleak. And I think by the end, I had, uh, probably most definitely abused my own self in order to get that performance. And when I left the shoot, they still had three days left to shoot, because I was off to Boston, to go and shoot Little Women literally straight away...

Male Host: [laughs increduously]

Florence Pugh: [with a weak laugh] I know. And I remember when I left, I said goodbye to everyone. And, um... when I was in the plane, I looked down-- and by that point, I'd traveled so much over the weekends to go and do press for Little Drummer Girl that I knew exactly where the field was when I was in the plane, because I'd follow the road out-- And I remember looking down and feeling immense guilt. Like, I felt so guilty, because I felt like I'd left her in that field, in that state.

Male Host: Wow.

Florence Pugh: And it was so weird. I've never had that before. I've always thought that all my characters, once I've left them, I'm like, "Yeah, but they'd be fine in the next situation. They know how to handle themselves." And this one I was like, "I've..." And obviously that's probably a psychological thing, where I felt immense guilt of what I'd put myself through, of course. But I definitely felt like I'd left her there in that field to be abused, to be... um, not to-- She can't fend for herself. And it was like I'd created this person, and then I'd just [snaps fingers] left her when I had to go and do another movie.

---

SJ: I would love to talk about race in this movie, because we sort of touched on it in our Hereditary episode... In the pro column, I do appreciate that this movie is using and appropriating the *whitest* possible culture, which, to me, is so refreshing, after the history of horror movies in particular using/co-opting/bastardizing things like indigenous lore and mythology. I mean, almost every movie about a haunted house or a haunted cemetery is based on, 'Oh, it's built near or on an Indian burial ground,' right?

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: So I'm almost okay with this movie being almost entirely white, because it's critiquing a very white culture, and it's not trying to appropriate a non-white culture, like we've seen in the past. Having said that, I think the casting of the few characters of color in this... I think it's a little problematic. What are you going to say?

Carver: Um, I think when you think of, again, the purpose this cult has, of bringing new people in, as they say, to extend the breeding pool, the genetic pool, and when you look around, it is still all white people. You know that they are bringing people of color here, but they are not using them for that. And so, it's hard to ignore that-- I'm going to say that they're a white supremacist cult.

SJ: I would agree. There is definitely a strong element of white purity, because who do they choose to mate with their girl? It's Christian, a white, redhead guy. Like, could not be whiter. The only people of color in this movie are the British couple, who they just kill. They are outsiders who were brought in, but they just use them basically as fertilizer. They don't use them for procreation. So I'm like, absolutely. This is, like, a white purity thing. To me, that works because I don't think the movie is condoning what this cult is doing at all. So we're like, 'okay, yeah, they're kind of an evil cult.' If we were meant to embrace the cult, or if people come away from this movie thinking, 'Actually, they have some good ideas,' that's problematic, because when we scratch the surface, we know that's not true. But I think as long as you're looking at the whole picture, looking at everything this cult is doing, you have a very clear understanding that they're not this utopia that they claim to be. And at the basis of it is this blood purity.

Carver: I do think the thought of bringing Connie and Simon is purposeful on the character of Ingemar. When they're first introduced, he says, "You know, Connie and I went on a date, and they started dating right after." And Connie is like, "We went on *a* date that I didn't *know* was a date." And he's like, "Anyway! And now they're engaged, and I brought them here."

SJ: Ohh, so you think that was payback, for Ingemar?

Carver: I think so. I think it relieved some of his own guilty conscience to be bringing these people, because he saw a slight in some way. And in the end, he volunteers to be one of the sacrifices and burns up there with them.

SJ: Yeah. I hadn't put that together, but I think you're right. The only main character of color is *Josh*, who-- okay, based on that name, I'm really going to assume that Ari Aster wrote the script with all white people, and at the very last minute, one of the producers was like, "You really should have a person of color." So he cast William Jackson Harper at the last minute, just so that people couldn't make the same critique of Midsommar that they do of Hereditary. [laughs] Um, but I have to say, I don't think the colorblind casting in that role works, because I don't think that a Black man, particularly an African American, would go to this other culture and pick it apart the way his white colleagues are doing. That seems like a very white colonialist mentality to have, and you're sort of drag-and-dropping that onto a Black character. That just does not equate to me, because I feel like, with that historical memory, being the descendant of people who were enslaved and who have had their culture appropriated by white people, I don't see how he would then turn around and exploit this culture the way his fellow white students were doing.

Carver: Exploit and also demand access to. Anytime a boundary is set about, "You can go this far, but no further," he is the most anxious to step over that line.

SJ: It's true.

Carver: And I don't think that someone who would have the cultural competence that that character would have, realistically, would do that.

SJ: Totally. Also, his name is Josh. [laughs] I'm sorry, but, like, whitest name ever. I really feel like that character was, at the last minute, cast as a Black person, just to kind of check that diversity box. Doesn't it read that way to you? Because I don't think anything about the character, as is written in the script, has any Black cultural identity or anything. I mean, he acts *just* like his white colleagues, and I just feel like that's Ari Aster doing some last-minute corrections, you know? [laughs]

Carver: I think it's the same as he said how he writes women, is he just puts himself into them. And I think that's very clear with Josh's character. Astor has no understanding of what it would be like to be a person of color, so he's like, "I'll just write you as if you were me!"

SJ: Yep. That's how it reads.

Carver: As much as I love to see that actor in any role-- I'm so happy to see him in anything. I think he also has a great amount of range. I think taking this role was a very smart thing for him to do after a show like The Good Place, because he is a *completely* different character.

SJ: Yes, he is.

Carver: I think he has an eye for creative media. I know if I see him on the cast, there is going to be something interesting about whatever's being made there. So, as much as I want to critique that character, I am always happy to see him working.

SJ: Always happy to see Chidi! Yep. [both laugh]

Things I like about this movie? Equal opportunity nudity-- That's rare! We get just as much schlong as we do full-frontal naked ladies. I also appreciate that there is a sense of humor running throughout this movie. A lot of people have this idea of it being a very self-serious sort of douer movie. But there are scenes that make me *laugh out loud*. The foreshadowing painting is one, but also the end scene-- [Carver chortles] where she's in this giant flower dress, running and stumbling and tripping on it. And she's crying and sobbing and puking-- I laugh so hard. [laughing] And I think it's meant to be funny. Ari Aster has said in interviews that he intended for a lot of this to be, like, absurd. He said one of the funniest things to him is master's students arguing over their theses. So I think there is an intentional beat of humor running throughout that I appreciate.

But also, like I mentioned, I think this is a really-- this and Hereditary, in a different way-- but this movie in particular I think is such a good portrayal of the stages of grief. Particularly the loneliness of grief, you know, how alone Dani feels in mourning, when everyone around her just wants her to get over it and be fine. Of course, the film presents this alternative to that in the form of the cult, which demonstrates this idea of collective feeling and radical empathy. Whenever one member feels pain-- or pleasure for that matter-- they all experience it together as if it was their own. That's a very appealing thing for Dani in the place she's at-- Again, a very vulnerable person, the cult is appealing to what she wants most... And I have to say, the wailing scene, where she's finally letting it all out-- the rage and the grief and the betrayal-- everything that she's feeling, on the floor, on her hands and knees, just *sobbing*, snot and tears dripping down her face. And every other woman in that cult is there on the floor with her, sobbing and screaming together in this one, moving mass...

SJ: It's such a powerful scene, I have to say. Both times I watched it, I felt it viscerally, and it was really cathartic. Also, just-- can you imagine filming that scene?? [both laugh] The lack of self consciousness you would have to have, because it's just so raw. I think for Dani it is the turning point in the film, because for the first time she's being held by people in the way that she needs to be held-- in the way that Christian couldn't, in the way that she probably didn't feel held by her family. Yeah, I think that's really her turning point. And it's, to me, probably the most powerful scene.

Carver: I absolutely agree with you there. The line I think of most often is Pele asking, "Do you feel held by him?" And I do think that is a question that in relationships we aren't told to ask. And so much of the success of things like that comes down to something so simple: 'Do you feel held? Do you feel that there is someone there to catch you when you need caught?' And I think that is the nail in the coffin of many relationships, is when you realize that you don't.

SJ: That was a line that stuck out to me, too. She sort of gets her answer in that scene: 'No, I have not felt held, that's why I need this.' And I think that's when she, consciously or unconsciously, makes the decision to stay with these people, for at least a period of time. I think a lot of it has to do with the way that American culture likes to isolate people who are grieving. We don't talk about death, and we certainly don't talk about suicide. So she's dealing with all of this on her own. And I really think the cult is speaking to the weakness in the way that Western culture deals with(/doesn't talk about) these things like death and suicide and grief. They are filling that need for her.

Carver: Yeah, they're showing her another way. You know, I think before, she couldn't imagine a world where she really felt held in that way. I think Dani was put in the position of being the one holding. And so, it really is the first time that she feels that other people are even just relating to her, besides Pele who is the first person to really even say, "Sorry for your loss."

SJ: Yeah. We talked in our mental health series-- my guest Megan, who's a social worker, was talking-- about how this really is a shortcoming of Western culture. It's this individualistic, sort of 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' mentality that makes us feel so alone when we're feeling any type of extreme emotion. We're taught to just figure it out on our own, deal with it ourselves, carry our own water. And the cult, to me, represents more of, like, the Eastern cultural mentality, which is more of a collective, and 'we do things together.' This is something that came up in another episode we did on The Farewell, which is about how no one dies alone, no one grieves alone, we're all in this together. It's about the community, it's about the family unit, it's never about the individual person. So I think that's something we can think about and take as a critique from this movie about our individualistic American culture, which wants to deny these things and make people feel so isolated when they're in the worst emotional places in their lives.

Carver: We're a society that sees asking for help as a shortcoming. The fact that you need help in any way means that you're less than the people who don't ask for it. I mean, in our culture, even mental health is still so stigmatized that going to see a therapist is barely a part of the norm. And most people who need therapy won't seek it.

SJ: Right. That was a big impetus for doing the mental health series. So, oddly enough, I think this movie sort of piggybacks nicely on some of those themes.

Carver: Absolutely.

SJ: For me, another standout scene, other than the wailing, I think my other favorite scene is [chuckling] the dance-off?

Carver: Mhm!

SJ: 'Dance 'til you physically collapse' has got to be one of the most underused horror scenarios. But it got me thinking about the history of dance marathons, which is actually kind of dark and fucked up. The origin in the U.S.? It began in the Great Depression, as a means of survival for people who were otherwise literally starving. Atlas Obscura had a really interesting article on it recently, and they wrote: "In the thick of the Great Depression, the perverse entertainment racket of America's dance marathon craze was, to some, a survival strategy. Because dancing in a marathon didn't just mean the possibility of a cash prize, it meant being fed and sheltered for the duration of the contest." So I thought that was an interesting, equally dark parallel for what Dani is doing here, which is also probably dancing for her life, whether she realizes it or not at the time. Going back much further in a more global context, you also had these medieval dancing plagues. People would just start dancing, and they'd dance for days and days and days. And at the time, people thought it was demonic possession. Now they say that it was probably ergotism, it was a type of food poisoning, and basically these people were tripping--

Carver: Mhm. Bad bread.

SJ: --which, side note, was also what they think caused the Salem witch hysteria.

Carver: Mhm!

SJ: Atlas Obscura also does a podcast, and they had just done this episode that I had listened to right before I re-watched Midsommar, about the Harga, which is what this dance thing is...

Atlas Obscura female host: I'm standing at the top of a mountain in northern Sweden, and I'm looking at a ring in the rock. It's polished down into the stone almost like hundreds of feet did hundreds of laps around this circle and pounded the ground until it became smooth. According to a famous Swedish legend, that is exactly what happened. A group of doomed teenagers followed the devil to the top of this mountain. And as they danced circle after circle and wore their bones down against the rock, the devil sat in a nearby tree, watching them dance to their deaths, playing his violin... [creepy violin music]

SJ: So, that dance scene is based on this real legend, and I thought it was interesting the way they incorporated it. Those are just some of the contextual things I was thinking of when I watched this movie the second time around. The first time I watched it, I was like, "Oh, they're dancing! This is fun. It's all bright and cheery." But they're drugged! It is sort of like an LSD haze for Dani. Then you start thinking, 'Okay, what if she wins? What does she actually win? What does that entail?' And you just get this sinking feeling of like, 'I don't think winning this is going to be a good thing for her.' And of course, as we've said, it probably isn't.

Carver: To my viewing, it's the moment that really solidifies Dani's relationship with the cult. There are moments in that dance where she looks out at Christian and is afraid. And then she looks at the girl who pulled her into the dance and sees the joy that she's experiencing, and mirrors that feeling the same way that later they will all mirror her feeling. So I think that dance is her really crossing cultures and becoming one of them. That may be cemented later on, but I don't think that she would have done that willingly if it weren't for the way that she felt so included with those women, in a way that she was never included with the people who were already in her life.

SJ: Also, it's just like, really nice to see her smile for the first time in the entire fucking movie! [laughs]

Carver: Truly a relief!

SJ: Honestly. I was just so glad to see a smile on her face. For once, she looked like she was enjoying herself, for at least part of it-- even though she's drugged out of her mind. [laughs] But it is like the only moment of joy in this movie, for which she has just been bereft.

Carver: One other thing that I noticed, sort of tying these two films together-- which I don't always like to do. I personally like that Ari Aster made a movie and then wasn't forced to make a franchise. Which is, I feel like a lot of what's happening now, and there's a lot of pressure for people to find the connection and to put these movies in the same world. I think they're absolutely spiritual siblings--

SJ: Sure.

Carver: --but I don't think that they should be read as happening simultaneously. It is a different world that Hereditary and Midsommar take place in. But they do both focus around this theme of holding in and releasing grief, and I think that is an interesting place to draw fear from. I don't think it is usually grief we are focusing on when we're talking about our fears, when grief is such a huge part of it. I feel like anxiety is the culmination of fear and grief. And it's something that our generation-- and of course, generations before us-- were very vocal about the way that we experience that.

SJ: I have to say, I really love the end scene. I felt like such a cathartic culmination of everything, and the way that it's constructed is so effective. I mentioned the scene where the building with her boyfriend is up in flames in the background, and in the foreground, she's stumbling over this dress, and crying and puking. And I have to laugh, but that is like the final purging for her of those emotions that she's been carrying. Because then she looks around and sees everyone around her-- all the people in the cult-- are also screaming and crying and puking and wailing. And you can see the moment the burden of feeling like she has to carry all of that by herself is lifted. You watch the anguish on her face morphing into relief and a kind of joy, and you see her arrive finally at a sense of peace. The burning building crumbles into the flames, superimposed over a close-up of her face, going through this transformation. And she smiles because she's been released of her grief, of her shitty boyfriend who was never there for her, maybe even of the anxiety and the burden of having a sister who is suicidal and having to constantly worry-- There's some relief there. And there's a release of being constrained by American societal pressures. She has, for better and worse, a new family of sorts that will give her what she desperately needs, which is to be seen and held with no constraints.

And I felt that sense of catharsis with my own grief as well. Watching it, I felt like I had gone through the wringer with her and then kind of come out the other side, almost being exorcised of my grief. With that final scene, I just felt like I could [exhales] let it go, in a way. And that was really helpful for me. So, going into this movie in that profound state of grief allowed me to have that experience and view it through that lens. Again, it comes down to what you're going into this movie-- any movie-- with, but for me, it was like a grief doula, sort of guiding me through the stages. Now, obviously, it's not a perfect happy ending for her - We know this. But that was the experience I had, and it was very helpful for me. So I would recommend this movie to people who are grieving, which I think a lot of people are, as we're in this now third year of the pandemic.

If there's a moral to this story... I think there are a couple things, but one that really jumped out to me was the importance of balance in all things. Throughout the film, we're shown examples of how too much of even a seemingly good thing has negative consequences, right? Like even the constant sunlight, which, sunshine is supposed to be good and symbolize happiness and clear skies. But the *constant* sunlight, the heavy saturation of light throughout this movie, becomes disorienting and wrong, when there's no distinction between night and day. Similarly, too much empathy and sharing-- as we see with the cult having various communal experiences-- at a certain point, leads to the absence of personal boundaries and even consent.

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: Oh, we got to talk briefly about the Oracle character, because we were talking about ableism in Hereditary... But even the Oracle character-- if you're going to give that some meaning (because I really hate that that's a character, it doesn't need to exist)-- if you are to ascribe some meaning to that, you could sort of read it as, like, 'too much blood purity leads to physical disfigurement.'

Carver: That particular character is so secondary that they could have very easily been removed from the story and had basically no effect. I think it is there to trigger the Western cultural taboo of incest, to expose these Americans to something that is going to make them uncomfortable, that they see as morally wrong. And then also the fact that they are doing it purposefully, creating this person in a way that just seems manipulative, creating someone to be used. And they are the only person kept separate from everyone else. They live alone, in the religious house, but they are very clearly created to be kept apart from everyone else. Even if they're put on a pedestal and being told that they're holy, they're still not fully a part of the cult, which is the thing that we feel for Dani. Like, the compelling part of this movie is almost wanting Dani to join this cult, to be a part of something, and then they have created a person to keep away from them.

SJ: It's a striking contrast, and I agree - This character could have been completely written out of or edited out of the movie, and it would change pretty much nothing. I think there's like a total of 5 seconds of actual screen time for this character, at least in the theatrical cut. They're talked about in maybe two scenes, but it just seems so unnecessary. I guess if you're really [exasperated sigh] going deep on it, you could say the othering of this character is another warning sign against this cult being as inclusive as they say. But, uh, Occam's razor would say it's just Ari Aster's ableism showing up again.

Carver: Yeah. [chuckles]

SJ: It feels like the very old archetype of 'good equals beautiful and bad equals ugly.' It's just so regressive and uninteresting that I wish he hadn't included it. What is the point of this character?!

Carver: It really adds little to nothing to the film. It seems sort of like you were saying earlier, used for the same purpose of showing elderly women nude: It's a shock factor, it's to make the most common denominator feel some amount of disgust. It doesn't really feel like it fits even the themes of this movie.

SJ: I agree. And I mean, that's definitely one of the things I dislike. I also don't like that this movie-- *again*-- has, like, zero women involved at any level of production. Since it was filmed in Sweden, they just used a lot of Nordic white dudes... And Aster's next movie is equally white. He's just going to keep doing the same thing, I don't think he's ever going to learn. But, we shall see, Ari.

Carver: We'll see! [chuckles]

SJ: I did want to ask you, do you see Dani as a type of Final Girl? And if so, how does she fit into that canon?

Carver: I think, with the loosest parameters of Final Girl-- which I'm comfortable using here-- Dani is a Final Girl. She starts the movie with the same obstacles against her as everyone else, and because of something inherently different about her, she's able to make it through (at least the film). And the thing that Dani has that's different is *emotional complexity*--

SJ: [laughs] Right. It's true! That is her superpower.

Carver: --And, uh, that's not always what we're looking for in a Final Girl, but I do think it makes her just as tough. The things we expect to see them going through, she, in a way, does. She's put against these insurmountable odds, and just because they look way different than what we're used to doesn't exclude her from being part of that canon.

SJ: Yeah. Isn't the Final Girl also supposed to be the virgin, usually?

Carver: Yes. I'd say that trope gets subverted more and more since Scream came out...

SJ: Since people became aware that the Final Girl was a trope [laughs]. Then they started trying to subvert it.

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: I think there's an element of that to her character, because a comment that one of the douchey guys makes is that she doesn't want to have sex with Christian. That sort of made me think of your classic Final Girl-- as like, not sexual, right? Because the girl who has sex dies first, in your classic horror movie.

Carver: Yes. And I think-- if we're getting into Final Girls-- a lot of the basis of the idea of the Final Girl is because those slasher movies were made during Reaganomics, during an extreme time of demonizing women owning their sexuality. And so, the villain in many of those slasher stories is...Reaganomics. It's the oppressive force coming after people trying to live their lives. And the farther we get from that, the easier it is to subvert those notions.

SJ: Totally. And it's kind of interesting to see versions of Final Girls in different eras.

Carver: I watched a movie recently with a Final Girl who is so unlike anything else I've ever seen, that calling her a Final Girl is a stretch because it's like, is she the villain?

SJ: [intrigued] Mm.

Carver: I, uh, will not recommend it to the squeamish, but the movie Pet is definitely disgusting [SJ chuckles] and unlike anything I've ever seen before. If you really want to see a subversive Final Girl, it would be Holly from that.

SJ: Gotcha. It is interesting to see the evolution of Final Girls, because they started out being very stereotypical, and I think we are getting into more interesting territory with recent horror. The last thing I'll say about Midsommar is, one thing that really irks me? Ari Aster has said a number of times that he wrote this after a really bad breakup, and that he is basically Dani. Now, we know how he writes female characters-- I guarantee you the first draft of this script was gender-swapped. And so, I think about what that would have looked like, and... ew.

Carver: Mhm.

SJ: That would not have gotten made. Like, watching a man drug and set fire to his girlfriend would not play well in a mid-#MeToo era [laughs nervously]. So I'm sure that he got some notes or had some self-awareness to gender-swap those characters. But it really gives me pause to think of what the first version of this movie looked like, if it's taken from his own experiences and his own anger towards his ex-(presumably)girlfriend. I can't help but feel a little ick, ya know?

Carver: Yeah. I think we wouldn't have the same sympathy for Dani, if the roles were reversed there...

SJ: No.

Carver: ...But I also feel like we may have even had *more* sympathy for them, before everything happened.

SJ: Hmm...

Carver: I think because of the way we see gender and relationships, it's easy to kind of say, "Well, is she being a little naggy in the beginning? Is she calling too much?" They're able to put us in her shoes, where we're second guessing those things, whereas if a man was, like, calling and trying to be emotionally vulnerable with his girlfriend, we'd be like, [fawning] "Oh, good for him! Good for him, having a depth of emotion!" Because that's where our bar-- [laughing]

SJ: Ha, right!

Carver: --for the representation of men is.

SJ: Oh my God, it's so true. Well, I know on your show you always like to end with some recommendations, so would you kick us off?

Carver: Absolutely. This is a movie that, when I first saw it, Ari Aster was the first person I thought of-- specifically the shot in Hereditary where he's being followed down the hall, and it starts from behind him and goes over and turns, which I think is a very distinct shot that you don't see very often. There is an Australian film from 1982 called Next of Kin. It actually didn't get a worldwide release until 2019. It's available on Tubi, Shudder, and if you endorse the monster, Amazon Prime... [chuckles]

SJ: [through pursed lips] Myeah.

Carver: It's about a college student who returns to the small town where her family owns a home for the elderly, after her mother dies, and the events of her mother's diary start happening to her. It's part giallo, part haunted house story, and it is immaculate, especially for being made in a time where most films coming out of Australia were called "Ausploitation," because they were just purely exploitation films. And I think this really subverts a lot of what was happening there at the time.

SJ: Interesting. How did you come across that one?

Carver: Uh, I will watch everything on Shudder. Two years ago, I was living in a house without internet, and I watched 100 horror movies in a year-- 100 new-to-me horror movies, not including rewatches.

SJ: Wow.

Carver: And I feel like I really pushed my knowledge of the genre, by pushing myself that way.

SJ: That's very impressive. Henceforth, you will be my go-to horror person. [both laugh] You've watched everything, and I am still really a noob at this genre, so you've been a great reference. I haven't listened to every episode of your podcast, but I've been catching up on some older ones and I try to keep up with the new ones. But it always gives me something new to put on my list, or helps me reconsider a film I've already seen, from a different lens. So, I appreciate what y'all are doing on Spooky & Gay.

Carver: Thank you! So glad to hear it.

SJ: It's a good time, it really is.

Carver: I'm glad. You know, we sat together watching movies and we're like, "We have such a good time. Let's share this with other people."

SJ: I love that. I think some of the best podcasts are ones that just feel like conversations between friends. As a listener, you feel like you're there with them, like you're just having a good chat with your friends about something, or geeking out about something.

Carver: Always feel free to cook dinner with us in your ears. [laughs]

SJ: And I have! I have, actually. [both laugh] Um, I guess for my recommendations, I will try to cancel out the straightness, whiteness and maleness of Ari Aster's films. [chuckles] There's a TV show called Evil. Have you watched this?

Carver: I haven't watched Evil.

SJ: It's from a husband-and-wife creative team, Robert and Michelle King, who also created The Good Wife (which was excellent) and The Good Fight (which was even more excellent and got me through the tr*mp years). They're a fantastic satirical creative duo, and Evil is no exception. It's tackling all these really current, zeitgeisty things, using the genre of horror. It is a bit of a monster-of-the-week sometimes, but the monsters and demons tend to be more human than supernatural in nature, whether it's police brutality or incels going on shooting sprees. Every episode is different and kind of knocks your socks off in a new way. Sometimes it is *genuinely* scary, and sometimes it's mostly funny, but it's a great balance. And I'm just recommending it to everyone, because it feels really underrated. I don't know many other people who are watching it, but it's *such* a good show. And of course, there are a lot of really great women-directed horror movies, so I have listed some of our faves in the shownotes as well for people to check out.

All right! This was fantastic. It was really good to talk to you more in-depth.

Carver: Thank you so much for having me on, that was great!

SJ: Thank you for rewatching those movies even though-- [cracking up] --even though they traumatize you and, uh, you didn't necessarily like them.

Carver: You know, I got to the halfway point in Midsommar, and I realized I had stopped taking notes because I was just so engrossed by it.

SJ: Oh really?

Carver: I don't regret doing it at all. It just really took a lot to get myself to do it. But once I did, I enjoyed it again.

SJ: Oh, good. I'm glad at least one was a more or less enjoyable viewing experience. [chuckles]

Carver: I honestly think that article made my viewing experience of Hereditary worse--

SJ: Yeah!

Carver: --'cause I was really looking for the trans allegory, and where I found it, I did not like it.

SJ: Yes! Same.

Carver: And I hate to say that, because I love supporting trans writers, and I'm so glad that they saw themselves in that. But it is just not something I can see myself in...well. [chuckles]

SJ: It's a good example of how trans people are not a monolith, you know? We have varying opinions on things too, and something that resonates for them didn't resonate for us-- That's okay!

Carver: Yeah.

SJ: [faux-dramatically] We contain multitudes, don't we?

Carver: Truly. [both laugh]

SJ: Like all people! Imagine that.

Carver: Right? [chuckling]

SJ: Well, it's been a blast talking to you, Carver. I'm really glad we got to do this. Thanks so much for sticking with me for...2 hours? 3 hours, now? Oh my God. [tired and apologetic] Yeah, it's been 3 hours.

Carver: Happy to do so. I could talk about this forever, so you're with good company. [chuckles good-naturedly]

SJ: [smiling] Appreciate it. [determinedly] I will see you on TikTok.

Carver: Absolutely. [chuckles]

[Harga music from Midsommar plays in background]

SJ: For more discussion of all things horror, check out Carver's podcast, Spooky & Gay with Carver and Jay. And for more discussion of all things pop culture, hit the 'follow' or 'subscribe' button on this here podcast. I promise we really never talk about the stuff made by straight white guys-- This was a one-off. Following some of Midsommar's themes though, our next episode will be the continuation of our series on mental health representation in TV and film. Patrons of the show get first looks at new episodes, plus bonus content and listener polls. So if you enjoyed this episode and would like more, or just want to show your support for all the hard work that went into it, check out Patreon.com/popculty. Huge thank-you as always to our sustaining patrons: Suzy, Denise, Alexandra, and Mary. And thank you, dear listener, for spending time with us. You can spend more time with Carver on TikTok @acamp.slasher, and me over on Tumblr.com/popculty. Until next time: Stay critical, support women directors, and demand representation.

[music concludes]

SJ: Sorry, I feel like I'm going on. [dramatically] I have a lot of feelings! [both laugh]

[hereforyourdispleasure]

🍉,🍓,🍰,🍫- Darian

🍟, 🍕, 🍪, 🍻, 🍷- Mark

🍩,🌽, 🍒 - Alir

🍋, 🎂, 🍔, 🍰- Adrian

I'm gonna post this now because it's been sitting in my drafts for weeks. Sorry Alir 💀 looks like I didn't have motivation to answers their's

Darian

A particular piece of jewelry he refuses to part with?- He, Mark and Alir have matching rings. He did get a necklace and a couple rings from Dani but refuses to risk damaging/losing them. He has a few funky things- 80s style bracelets, pop culture themed jewelry. But he's honestly not much for actually wearing them. The jewelry collection will be added to in near future though apparently 😰

Any particular scents he likes?- Petrol station. That's all I'll say. Pine and sea salt too

Something he counts as unforgivable?- Killing/knowingly endangering his friends. If someone's done it, he just won't move on from it, you'll always be untrustworthy to him. Yes this includes himself, even if he was trying to avoid endangering people

Where does he go to think?- The bunkers. Everything always leads back to them. Sometimes around other people, if he wants some sort of outside input (but there's also the chance of him thinking out loud around certain people is a plot. It definitely was when he did it once or twice to Baphomet)

Mark

Guilty pleasure?- I don't think he'd see any point in covering it up, he just likes puzzles. Likes making them mostly

How does he spend a lazy day?- Ahahohoho. Don't be silly. This man is always working. He'd probably just hang around with Darian and Alir, or his friends in his department. If not, there's always new machines to be working on, security systems to update. He's a busy guy too

Something sentimental?- He doesn't really do sentimental. But he takes pride in his work, and feels sentimental about particular creations. He'll always adore any gifts Darian and Alir give him though

Comfort ritual/how he calms down after a rough day?- Rich kid shit. Fancy bath, go out for a meal

Adrian

Most painful memory?- Really depends on what age specifically we're talking about, because Adrian technically refers to the age range of late 18/19 to 21. 18/19 Adrian is obviously still getting over a death. Is he over the events that lead to him getting picked up by commission? Probably not. 20 Adrian has a hell of a lot going on, doesn't really have time or any need to focus on the past. 21 Adrian though is in the direct aftermath of seeing basically all his project co-workers be ripped apart, nearly ending up the same way only to be saved by another reality being for some reason and being blamed for the whole project. So yeah, probably that

Is he different to first perceptions of him? How does he surprise people?- Mmm yes and no. He's very aware of his reputation and the assumptions and perceptions of him. And he'll lean into the ones he sees as useful. They aren't exactly false, he can easily live up to the perceptions, and very much has done. But as I've said before, Adrian was the one that took in Alir. It'd be cliché to say oh he's just a mean guy with a soft side. He's an asshole because of 18 years of losing every chance of living a good life despite fighting for it, and he's tired and obviously being manipulated. But he's not the "has a soft side prick 🥺", he just has the common sense to not blindly follow everything. He has morals. Sometimes. Even if it really doesn't seem like it. Because he is still Darian, he is still Dante

Are there any recent trends he would love or hate?- He'd hate tiktok trends I can't lie. At this point he's barely had a chance to be on the internet. If he saw a bunch of people younger than him doing weird dances or jokes that 100m other people have already done, he'd probably avoid the internet altogether. He'd love shit like the tidepod challenge just because he'd want to see stupid people get consequences

Something he counts as unforgivable?- Honestly most crimes against children. Hypocritical of him, yes, because of the noncanon rp. But he'll absolutely not deal with prolonged and serious suffering when it comes to young people. Any mistreatment because of discrimination? Not even a second thought, they're already dead to him. Then obviously sexual assault, stuff along those lines

[usedtobeyours]

oh, well, here we go. super fucking weird dream

hey, hey, havent written in a while. will just let it out.

today has been a fucking good trip. i woke up overwhelmed by a fucking complete dream. been through therapy and work, and afterwork beer. has been alright, but dont wanna forget the dream.

it started with this fucked up reality where, three years later, i'd get my corona graduation. weird, if you think about how yesterday was the 15th of march, 2023. so, three years ago, i'd ve mastered miami ad.

imma try not to edit myself that much moving forward.

so, about that dream.

it started weird. graduating.

as i came into miami ad school - a whole new mas, and let me tell you, it was a different layout. not the entrance, in my dream at least.

i saw fucking tadeu schimdt. but i think we can overlook that. he was the desk person, checking in new graduates for the FUCKING ceremony that took three years to come.

in my dreams, it happened. good enough, i guess? okay, getting past my current big brother thing. i came in and the first person i saw was Shannon. She was sweet, and said hi, and handed me a plate of burger king food as it was a brand gift to all graduates.

i came in, and said hi to people. and by people i mean all the not right placely ones: bruna(s) from college, ursula, dilson (????wtf i hadnt thought about him in forever?). thats all i remember there. and then i went to the bathroom and they took my food away.

then i remember going back to shannon in a fast-food like counter with other employees. she put my plate back up in small, bite size burgers and salads. so many salads. this is important for therapy reasons.

then I go back to the cocktail party, and I remember being chatting with someone, and smoking a tabacco joint, and my mom coming by and seeing it with me. i remember saying: yup, you know i smoke this, but also...idk, traumatic repressive shit.

okay, i think at this point i woke up and tried to sleep again, so we went back to the dream.

at this point, i remember being at miami ad school, but a different location, a different class layout. and then i'm not sure of the order of this happening:

i met my godmom and for some reason she was taking some kind of losing weight drug that helped her (she was in class #3 after the mess). she had lost about 10 pounds and was about as mean as she ever was/though nothing towards me so I guess win?

i remember seeing bruno but he didn't see me. fitting. it was as if we're both in the waiting room to something and i'm trying to get his attention but nothing there.

there was a WEIRD class. i remember being in this class in an open room with other students (at least 20). nothing like mas, but also something that could only work there. we were having online class, with the teacher speaking on a headphone mic, but he was there. i dont remember specifically, but we had a PCD in class. what i do remember is the teacher being super specifically gross towards our fellow student, and us bringing it up to MAS direction and teachers and it being noticed. that would be a first, but still. I guess the way i remember is terrible and the way i feel about it everytime is bad enough, but no.

okay, moving on to step two of the fucking weird journal this dream was:

i guess three of those i spoke about in therapy. one not, because it's fuzzy and dreamy. like this dream should be:

i think isabelle came up at one point of the dream. cant be too sure. i think she was living in miami, and we were trying to find the nail salon together in the rain - or i think that was just me and she was a feature as a safespace in the dream.

i remember roaming in miami and waiting for the people i love (including dani) to finish their classes at MAS. at this point, as I was roaming, i remember: - this one weird lady coming up with a gun - not a gun, um fuzil - at this corner fashion shop at MAS. I think someone shot her back and I do think I got this from a videogame, but still. Weird. - this one homeless guy attacking me as i walked with one of my friends back to MAS, or through MIA. I called on the police on time, and they helped. - okay, not sure where this point of the dream falls in, but i think i was sitting in the middle of edgewater/wynwood with someone, and I left my backpack back. and I went on. a couple of meters ahead, someone said, go back and get it, and i did.

in my dream, miami could be either MAS or a videogame location. a scary place. maybe i shoudnt be watching last of us too much but yeah. i was either walking around and in danger or coming back home.

MAS was at a weird, soooo sicked up street. there were bars, a restaurant, a store, etc. oh gosh, there's so much in this dream...

[horizon-verizon]

Why are some people just so unwilling to admit that hotd's writing is BAD. Why do they jump through hoops trying to explain and "analyze" anything the writers make the characters do when at this point it should be impossible to ignore that the writers make the characters so whatever the hell they feel like? It's honestly frustrating because there are some people out there with some genuinely good analysis skills and knowledge about the patriarchy and "time period" but when they refuse to acknowledge bad writing at this level you see how hard they work to strrrrreeeettttch. Which would be one thing but they also tend to insist that they're more enlightened than the people pointing out the issues

I think it's bc people, generally, are not familiar, willing to become so, or deeply in tune with misogyny as it happens when it comes to framing an argument that eventually leads to a sexist or slanderous effect. The most recent example is Daemon (I am not saying we're being sexist against Daemon!) at Harrenhal with Alys. Because a lot of people hate Daemon and attribute lots of their biases against Targaryens more against him than Aemond or Aegon AND how they generalize medieval men into the same degree and persona of "sexist medieval man", they aren't very willing to think about how disengenuously Daemon AND Alys might be written. And they think that bc they understand misogyny as well as Daemon's simpleness of being a sexist, they think the writers' direction of him realizing he really isn't the shit is "complex". A modern regression of a sentimental Victorian play posing as a "deep" drama series. It may even manifest as them feeling that bc people think Daemon is less "evil" than they want to believe him to be, less intrinsically bad for Rhaenyra (themselves bc a lot self insert) both personally and politically, that the show is "making it obvious" that he is evil just for them and for the good of the "toxic ship loving" masses. And bc it is very true that some people will misapply discrimination where there is none and it's just criticism of a person with a marginalized identity (Hyuna of KPop and some people claiming it's sexist to hate her they way a lot of the world does right now), so people become even more defensive of keeping what they immediately perceived as simple misogyny finally getting its ass kicked.

Second, bc they underestimate Daenerys and magic (thus not know the diff b/t greenseeing, warging, Valyrian dragon bonds and blood magic, etc. or at least acknowledge they don't know shit) bc near-magicless Game of Thrones lulled them into an ignorant state where it's a lot easier to chalk up to the smoky, borderless force that is "magic". Daemon is dreaming? Alys is doing magic, she's a greenseer...meanwhile, they can't define or explain the limits and abilities of an actual greenseer when asked. And the lazy habit of attributing everything not properly explained or really explored in the show also goes for Helaena and her non-"dragon dreams". You don't know? Which itself comes from people used to coming up with unsubstantiated headcanons and theories to explain the plotholes the writers leave so they can excuse themselves continuing to enjoy the current show.

Third, they overestimate how GRRM creates and sets up that mystery vs this mystery. There are mysteries that are unlikely to ever be "solved", like what exactly is going on in the 4th continent--Ulthos-- of the world and knowledge of all the living creatures of Sothoryos. And then there are mysteries like the wyverns vs dragons and the blood magic of Valyrians that were made that will eventually be revealed bc it will give us specific clues as to explain how Dany is bonded w/her dragons. And people tend to lazily attribute any mystery like these as unworthy of speculation (thus they never find out any possible connections and weight them against each other for likelihood of truth); and all mysteries feel like they are the exact same kind.

Fourth, they are feening for a live representation--any live thing--for any ASoIaF story. So they underestimate the story GRRM is telling about the Dance and hot it relates to Daenerys like all the F&B stories inevitably do.

Fifth, there are "enough" genuinely well written scenes that "makes up" or misleads them into not really thinking about the implications.

Sixth, I think that people like the whole Gothic romance thing show!Rhaenyra and Daemon seem to be on...but the book likely wasn't like that, least not after they married. And they can't conceptualize that with all the incest and Daemon being so willing to have a moral value system that rests entirely on his family's existence and legacy and Rhaenyra being very proud of her standing, so they want to stick to the seemingly counter-Gothic writing. It's more digestable, people don't like gothic/gothic-inspired stories, therefore it's more "believable" that way.

Seventh, as this TikToker states, HotD loves to create character from parallel that is actually replicas rather than character from personal action. The constant contrasting and making characters when (most) of them [Helaena-Rhaena; Aegon-Jace; Rhaenyra-Alicent, but specifically that part of epi 5 where they faced men around them shutting them down] don't make sense as parallels-actually-replicas and already had foils set up in F&B. foils are different from what these writers are doing. These writers are making it such that, for example, Daemon is a negative presence in the Riverlands as well as incompetent; Aemond is also a second son and will seemingly do anything to get it, so that must mean that Daemon must have lingering feelings about the same and has the same desires....No, Daemon raised at least 2 armies for people when he didn't have to or when he easily could have used them himself and he mustered many Riverland houses without any real incidents--only the Tullys and Brackens were issues and they were taken care of. Aemond? He is the one who caused--and DIRECTLY!--many noble and peasant families' deaths when he chose to fire on them all after losing KL in Daemon's trick. Rhaena may have been something like the "odd one out" for not having a dragon, but she was hardly as on the fringes of her own family as show!Helaena was and likely kinda was in the orig story. She was actually very much an "It" girl and inherited her confidence from both Daemon and Rhaenyra, but used it in a different way from Baela. Specifically in a way that is perceived as inaccessible to men. Baela was fiery and a bit tempermental (so was Rhaena but she "reigned it in" better), down to fight, able to climb walls, not afraid of dragonfight, which are all attributed more to masculinity under a Western/Westerosi gender paradigm. Whereas Rhaena's schmoozing with lords and ladies while looking cute, Rhaenys the Conqueror-style, is seen as more "feminine" and undesirable, yet it can't be understated how her doing all this enabled her to keep important connections in the Vale and utilize Arryn/Corbray support for her brother later on so her and her family could continue to have some sort of backup against the rising Peakes. So either people never realized this, OR they saw this and resented how this brought more power in such a "unmasculine" way, a way men are not expected or cannot access or use for themselves, that they pretend/convince themselves it's not important. Which helps them to convince others totally ignorant has no value, and the writers, I fell, do not understand Rhaena's purpose at the Vale OR they have no plans to show how she and Baela work towards their family's survival and freedom away from the Hightowers 2.0. Meanwhile, book!Helaena is essentially a breeding machine for her side of the family who kills herself from her kid getting killed and being forced to essentially participate in destroying her own tiny nucleus of a family.

That bring me to the eighth thing. The bk!greens are pretty simple in terms of characterization. Now, I actually love what they did with Aegon for the most part. Have some gripes with Aemond's and many with Helaena and esp with Alicent and love Otto's. But because people have this idea of parallels the same way they thought of constant subverting in GoT, some believe that bc the greens have had rounder characters, the blacks must also...as if it were automatic without them actually thinking of how the show has actually shown that.

Ninth, people are very used to stories that do a lot of telling and not enough of showing, and underestimate how important and different that looks in high fantasy adult fiction vs virtually everything else.

Tenth, people love a female protagonist who is very simply bad vs good imbued with liberal anti-violent-no-matter-what sentiment (that was meant to protect the 1%ers interests), like Rhaenys-Hilary-Clinton, and they don't link anti-militance to privilege specifically in a modern, neoliberal capitalist world. Instead misapplying such a thing to feudal women. Even as they also like to say that Alicent and Rhaenys are like "ordinary" medieval noble women in terms of their internalized misogyny...which doesn't match their definition of "wise" and is both contradictory & reductive bc:

real medieval noblewomen frequently waged/plotted/initiated war and when they did peace calls it was either bc they didn't think they'd win/get out with the right sort of lives intact OR bc they were, they just aren't very much featured as fighters or political strategizers themselves unless it's in the name of a son, husband, etc., and then this works to make people ignore that these women directly participate at all----so Rhaenys and Alicent can't be nonnegotiably wary of violence while also being a "typical" medieval noblewoman

Alicent & Rhaenys frequently show how much they really care about smallfolk/vulnerable people like women, or keep them in their thoughts when they talk about "peace"....it's all ideological, not substantial, but it's played-framed as if they are being for real; the same tool of leveraging stability of male dominance that Gyldayn uses against BOTH Alicent and Rhaenyra, the show Alicent and Rhaenys but Rhaenys esp, uses against Rhaenyra as to why she should rule or have support while trying for her claim, and it's really just so false!

It's so weird, bc they say the nobles this, this, and that shouldn't be killing each other and in lieu the helpless smallfolk, but they refuse to recognize how both women still rely on violence against those ranked below them for their own ends, whether psychological or physical. And it really comes down to who is licensed to dole out and use violence and when and against who, which always turns out to be the nonconforming "instigator" of this particular ASoIaF story, Rhaenyra. And that esp comes from this bias against Targs and the belief that they somehow bring out the worst in nobles, when its actually that nobles fight for land, power, survival all the time and have since before the Targs. And there is this strange moral-victim heroine complex that people want to see in their female protagonist and mistake in as a meet replacement and worthy copy of Daenerys, the childbride/exiled princess turned self-made Queen and protector of the masses.

As for why they "insist that they're more enlightened than the people pointing out the issues", the first reason I pointed out.

[keanureevesisbae]

"Oh, I'm not referring to the fact he brought it up," Geralt stated point blank, "he was just planning on being a dick about it. He shouldn't." His next glance in Leon's - and Charles' - direction was a warning shot. 

this is so unnecessarily sexy. Stern Geralt... fuck me up

Also, what is this for meeting? This has sorority vibes lol

"Perfect timing. We're in need of a tie-breaker," Marshall said. "What's sex?" 

"I feel someone should have told you that by now, Marshall..."

Mike, my man - i love you

Also, sherlie, sweetheart - my heart is yours. I love you - also, look at the love Sy and August have for their little Sherlie. It's so cute

To her surprise - and perhaps everyone else’s - he pulled her into his lap. 

SCREAMING OMG SHERLIE YOU GOT GAME

He put an arm around Solveig’s shoulder, but a simple look from Geralt told him that if he wanted to keep all the equipment he planned on using during that party he was planning, he’d better stop touching his girl.

Yes, Geralt, mark your territory

"Blowjobs make for fantastic apologies,"

excellent advice

"August, darling," Anjelica said sweetly, "did I mention I used the money my parents gave me for Christmas to treat myself to a new set of lingerie?" Sherlock almost choked on the piece of bell pepper he had stolen from the container next to Elena's cutting board, which caused her to elbow him in the ribs.

"You didn't," August answered, clearly not liking where this was going. 

"Well you won't get to see it if you don't fuck off." 

"Simple but effective," August said before giving her a quick kiss and walking away. 

"If all of you don't fuck off, August." 

"Holmes get the fuck out of that kitchen," August yelled, and then he turned his attention to Sy, who was apparently also on his way to the kitchen: "Syverson, don't even think about it." The boys laughed - and so did the girls. 

I AM SCREAMING WITH LAUGHTER OMG HAHAHAHAHA

"OUT!" All four of them yelled at the same time, which had the desired effect and terrified Charles as a lovely bonus. 

"I'm making a group chat now," Anjelica said with another curious glance in Dani's direction, "girl's night is on." 

There is tthis scene in The Nanny (i don't know if you've seen it, if so, you'll know what I'm talking about. if not, then you have to watch it and read what i'm about the write nonetheless).

There is this "thing" in the Nanny in season 4 i believe, where Maxwell and Fran both know what "the thing" is, but Niles, who literally knows everything is not in on it. And then finally, when Max is about to tell Niles, Maxwell's grandmother I believe walks in and without thinking twice, Niles yells at her and says: 'GET OUT OLD WOMAN' and that last scene kinda reminded me of that.

the more you know

Part 17 - Definitions

Masterlist

Part 16 -- Part 18

Summary: A very important house meeting at 179th Crescent Street

Warnings: None! (Although this chapter does feature small people rage)

Word count: 3k

A/N: So this is a little different, I guess? Anyway... It's out there now. PSA: The 'wokeness' only goes so far as I reasonably assumed from a bunch of horny college dudes, okay?

@deandoesthingstome @geralts-yenn @summersong69 @peaches1958 @fvckinghenrycavill @keanureevesisbae

"Alright, mother Leon, you have the floor," Charles said as he lifted a beer to his lips. 

"Mike isn't here yet, should we wait?" Leon asked - they always asked. The reaction was no different this time than all the other times: laughter. 

"He'll get here when he gets here," Marshall said. They weren't mad about it - genuinely. Mike knew he was like this, he never asked them to wait, and he usually accepted whatever decision was made for the house in his absence. 

"On to our first - incredibly important - order of business." Leon's tone was such that Sherlock already sank back in his chair, looking embarrassed. "Sherlock, she stayed the night. Is the bet settled?" 

"Leon," Geralt warned. 

"I know you're in on that bet, Geralt, don't bother pretending," Sherlock muttered. 

"Oh, I'm not referring to the fact he brought it up," Geralt stated point blank, "he was just planning on being a dick about it. He shouldn't." His next glance in Leon's - and Charles' - direction was a warning shot. 

"Ah," Sherlock replied, "well. In any case, I don't know if it's settled. Personally, I find myself hung up on definitions." 

"'Are you still a virgin?' sounds simple enough, right?" Sy asked, looking amused and confused at the same time.

"On the surface, yes," Sherlock mused. In between sentences he wondered why it was so difficult for him to discuss the emotional side of these things, yet so incredibly simple to argue the semantics. Geralt looked amused by the turn this conversation was taking, as did Marshall and August. "I simply cannot accept the definition of the word 'virgin' as 'someone who has not had sex'." 

"Well, what's the problem, then?" Charles demanded. 

"The first problem with it would be the definition of the word 'sex'." 

"Aren't you supposed to be the smart one?" Charles scoffed. 

"That might just be why I've come to the conclusions I have come to, and you haven't." It wasn’t much like Sherlock to say things like that, but the others had noticed the growing animosity between him and Charles, and they’d all been waiting for it to come to a head. 

"Are you calling me daft, Holmes?"

"I'm surprised you managed to work that out, Brandon." That was certainly enough to piss off Charles - thoroughly. He opened his mouth to say something when August put a hand on his shoulder. 

"I'm going to recommend backing off, Charles," he said with a smirk on his face that clearly showed he was impressed with Sherlock, "when it comes to a battle of wits, Sherlock has all of us outgunned." Sherlock nodded at him, appreciative of the acknowledgment - and the help in keeping Charles' fists away from his face. Charles didn't have a terrible temper, but he was generally a sore loser, which made him unpredictable at times. 

"The question?" Leon said to bring them back to the conversation. 

"Right," Charles said, "the widely accepted definition would be... How do I put this?" They all knew what he meant, but this was a particularly uncomfortable one to say out loud. You bet they were going to make him. They waited nearly half a minute before Geralt had had enough. 

"For god's sake, man, are you twelve? The widely accepted definition would be 'penis in vagina'. That's what you're trying to say, right?"

"Yes," Charles answered curtly. 

"I don't think I agree with that definition, either." Sherlock said. 

"You can't just disagree with definitions because they don't suit you, Holmes."

"I disagree with them because they make no sense, Solo."

"I have to say I'm with Sherlock on this one," August said. Marshall and Geralt nodded in agreement. Charles, Leon and Sy formed the other side. 

"Sorry I'm late!" Mike stepped into the kitchen with his coat still on. 

"Perfect timing. We're in need of a tie-breaker," Marshall said. "What's sex?" 

"I feel someone should have told you that by now, Marshall..."

"Very funny, we're serious. It's a fifty-fifty split on the…” Now it was Marshall’s turn to feel flustered over having to say that. Luckily,  Geralt wasn’t prepared to wait around for another thirty seconds, and offered up the same description he had before. 

“Yeah, well… that,” Marshall continued, “versus 'not quite sure, but not just that', what do you say?" 

"I say; give a man some time to step inside the goddamn house before hitting him with your little existential crisis."

"Mike," August laughed, "answer the damn question." 

"I'm with the side that says dicking a girl down isn't all there is to it." 

"Subtle," Marshall said. Apart from the obvious amusement at his wording, most people seemed surprised at the side Mike chose in the debate.

"Always," Mike replied with a big smile. "Besides, because I see you guys looking surprised, it's literally called 'oral sex'. I feel that that should say something." 

"Thank you, Mike." Sherlock grinned.

"Alright, but I'm gonna need a better argument. Exactly how does the traditional definition not make sense?" Sy weighed in. 

"I don't need to convince you," Sherlock said. 

"Let's make it interesting," Charles chimed in, "sway any of us three, you win the bet yourself?" He looked at the others, who all agreed to the idea. Sherlock needed to consider it only for a moment. With the seven of them in on it, that was quite a bit of money. 

"Alright, first off, by that definition, lesbians can't have sex. Typically. Neither can gay men. Again, typically."

"Correct," Charles replied, "but has it somehow escaped your attention that you are neither a gay man nor a lesbian?" 

"It hasn't, thank you for your concern, but the fact of the matter is that the definition of ‘sex’ we have established as ‘widely accepted’ functions only where heterosexual relationships are concerned. Now I would personally find it preposterous to propose that physical intimacy can only be considered sex in situations involving a cisgender woman and a cisgender man, and to suggest that any physical intimacy that does not fit the aforementioned heteronormative definition is a ‘different kind’ of sex would be a particularly outdated take on the matter. 

“If one wishes so desperately to warp the definition of sex in such a way that it encompasses all kinds of physical intimacy that could possibly be defined as sex, in any and all possible configurations of relationships, it quickly becomes a matter of where you draw the line. The argument of oral sex that Mike pointed out earlier, really makes itself. And even then, why would that be the threshold? 

"And lastly I..." There was a short silence as Sherlock tried to come up with the words he needed to express the thought he was having. 

"Please keep talking, before one of them opens their mouth," August said. Much like Geralt, he'd been enjoying watching Charles and Leon get obliterated by Sherlock's solid logic. 

"I refuse to think of the things that don't fit the traditional definition of the word as 'other' or 'less than', because it would discredit the experience and everything surrounding it, and I cannot bring myself to do that." His voice was soft as he said it, and he couldn't seem to peel his gaze away from his hands, which rested in his lap. He noticed his fingers trembled slightly, though he couldn’t say he was so nervous that it was to be expected. 

“All things considered, one might come to the conclusion that there is something inherently flawed about any concept that depends so heavily on the definition of something that is so exceptionally difficult to define.” 

"So," Leon asked curiously, "what definitions would you suggest, instead?"

"None. I would sooner come to the conclusion that the concept of virginity is, to put it plainly - and pardon my French - fucking ridiculous, completely unnecessary and nothing other than a falsely attributed currency of virtue used as a tool to impose outdated patriarchal values and the notion of commodity on women while simultaneously serving to emasculate and ridicule men who haven't rid themselves of it soon enough by anyone's personal and completely arbitrary standards. As for the definition of sex… I genuinely don’t think I care." 

"Hand the man his money," Sy said with a sigh. Napoleon pulled the cash out of his wallet and tossed it on the table while grinning widely. 

Charles shook his head in disbelief. “Bastard,” he muttered under his breath. The look on his face clearly showed he was impressed. 

“Charles, I’d like for you to take a moment to consider the following: In what universe was it a good idea to make a bet that depends heavily on the other person’s ability to present a logical argument,” August said, “with the genius law and philosophy student?” His tone was amused and only slightly derisive.  

“Now that this is settled,” Napoleon continued, “we have serious matters to discu-” He was interrupted by the door opening and a whole lot of noise in the hall. 

“What are the girls doing here?” Charles asked. 

“We were already here.” Elena appeared in the doorway. “Because, as Leon so kindly pointed out, I did spend the night here. Nice speech, by the way, Sherlock.” She walked around the table and stood next to him, an arm around her shoulder. To her surprise - and perhaps everyone else’s - he pulled her into his lap. 

“And so did we.” Anjelica looked over her shoulder to Danielle and Solveig, who were laughing about a joke she hadn’t heard. “We went out to get some groceries.” 

‘Some groceries’ was apparently a new way to describe three whole bags, completely full of food. 

“Do we have rabbits I don’t know about?” Mike ducked when he saw Marshall’s hand swinging for the back of his head, only to get hit by Geralt when he came back up. “Guys, come on, that’s more vegetables than we’ve seen in this house in at least a year!” 

“The three of us,” Solveig gestured to Ange, Dani and herself, “talked about cooking for our guys yesterday, so we asked Elena to join, and she was on board.” 

“But we figured we couldn’t punish the rest of the house for being single, so we’ll feed all of you, if you ask nicely.” Dani leaned her head against Charles’ shoulder and then gave him a sweet smile. He shot a suggestive look in Mike’s direction just to get a rise out of him, but Mikey was Mikey, and therefore wasn’t paying attention to his surroundings at all. Not the part he should have been paying attention to, at least.

“Free food, and I don’t gotta make it?” Sy said with a massive grin on his face. “Count me in!” The other three didn’t complain, either. 

Leon called for everyone’s attention again, and this time he wasn’t interrupted by everyone and everything, which was nice. The plan itself was simple: New Year’s party. 

“You’re not planning a party two days in advance?” Dani looked like her head was going to explode. That was just not possible… The other girls seemed to agree. 

“Worry not, ladies,” Charles interrupted. He put an arm around Solveig’s shoulder, but a simple look from Geralt told him that if he wanted to keep all the equipment he planned on using during that party he was planning, he’d better stop touching his girl. Charles and Leon talked everyone through the plans they’d been making for weeks. As it turns out, the girls didn’t know about this thing, because the guys had just not told them. Mike couldn’t use the others’ excuse that it didn’t come up, and had to go with the truth that he’d simply forgotten to mention it when he and Dani had discussed it. Luckily, Sloane and Ari were on board - especially now that the guys they’d been going out with had made different plans, involving different girls. Even through text, Slo couldn’t exactly hide her excitement about the fact that she was: A. Finally getting to meet Mike, whom Dani had hidden from them purposely and quite successfully, and B. getting to meet the others in the house, first and foremost: Sy. 

The girls chased everyone out of the kitchen when it was a little past two. Cooking for a grand total of twelve people was a massive chore in and of itself, that always took longer than initially expected, and some of these guys got serious attitudes when they weren’t properly fed on time. And ‘some of these guys’ could definitely be interpreted as ‘all of them’. They figured it was probably best to start early. 

“Geralt, if you do not get out of this kitchen at once, I’m not responsible for what happens!” It was a very intimidating thing to hear from the nearly 6ft. tall Scandinavian, especially since she was holding a very sharp knife. 

“Just came to check on you,” Geralt said. He was actually brave enough to walk up to her and wrap his arms around her. “If now were the time for jokes, I’d say something about your cooking skills making you wife material.”

“Ah, I see,” Sol snapped, “and in response to that, I wouldn’t laugh, and I’d tell you to cook for me sometime. So I can see if you’re husband material. Now, get out.”

“Do I need to fetch you some painkillers?” She responded with a nod and a ‘yes’ in the softest voice. 

“There’s some in my bag,” Ange said, saving Geralt a trip upstairs before kicking him out of the kitchen herself. They continued working on dinner, hoping none of the other guys would decide to come sneak a peek at dinner. 

"Period?" Elena asked Sol casually while cutting a whole load of tomatoes. Mike could just about have been right when he made his rabbit joke.

"From hell," Sol confirmed as she took the pills from Ange, "and he always knows, and he's so sweet about it, but I just yell at him." 

"Blowjobs make for fantastic apologies," Ange said and both she and Sol laughed. 

"Now I feel sad Dani has nothing to apologize for." It was Mikey's signature tone, the one where you could just hear the grin seeping through. 

“Mike! Leave!” Anjelica was scary - all 4’11” of her. 

"Drink and hug, then I'm gone," he said as he wrapped his arms around Dani, who had been tasked with peeling and mincing enough garlic to fend off a small army of vampires. 

"Hi," Dani said before turning her head for a quick kiss, "go grab a drink." She really wanted to finish this task with the same amount of fingers she'd started with. 

"Thank you," Mike said suddenly, "I've never had a girlfriend cook for me before. It's nice." He grabbed a beer from the fridge and disappeared. 

"He is so cute," Elena said. 

"Hey!" Of course Sherlock walked in at exactly that moment. Ange was just about boiling over with rage at this point. 

"Out! Holmes, get out! God is there no place where a couple of girls can talk without being interrupted every twenty-five seconds?" 

"I thin women fought long and hard for years just to make it so that the kitchen was no longer that place," August answered as he stepped into the kitchen. Funnily enough, Anjelica's anger disappeared miraculously. 

"Hey baby," she said with a sweet smile as August walked over to her. 

"Aren't you supposed to try and scare me out of your kitchen?" He sounded amused, which was an interesting new mood for most of the girls to experience. 

"August, darling," Anjelica said sweetly, "did I mention I used the money my parents gave me for Christmas to treat myself to a new set of lingerie?" Sherlock almost choked on the piece of bell pepper he had stolen from the container next to Elena's cutting board, which caused her to elbow him in the ribs.

"You didn't," August answered, clearly not liking where this was going. 

"Well you won't get to see it if you don't fuck off." 

"Simple but effective," August said before giving her a quick kiss and walking away. 

"If all of you don't fuck off, August." 

"Holmes get the fuck out of that kitchen," August yelled, and then he turned his attention to Sy, who was apparently also on his way to the kitchen: "Syverson, don't even think about it." The boys laughed - and so did the girls. 

"We need a girl's night," Dani said impulsively. She shocked herself; she wasn't usually so outgoing, and she was very glad that the others were quick to agree. 

"I live with mostly guys, and three of them are on teams with guys from here," Ange said, "my place is out." 

"I couldn't fit all of us in my room if I tried," Elena added.

"I don't even have the keys to my place yet," Sol said with a smile. Something told the others that she would be a bit uncomfortable having the three of them over, too. Not that the others were any better acquainted.

"Well, Ari and Slo wouldn't mind having everyone over at ours, and I'm pretty sure after the party we'll have intel on most of the house…" Dani grinned. 

"Marshall, Leon, Charles and Sy are missing, right?" Anjelica's tone was devious. Heat rose to Dani's cheeks.

"Marshall, Leon and Charles," she corrected. The others looked at her wide-eyed. 

"Are you saying what I think you're saying?" Solveig whispered. 

"I-" Dani started, but she was quickly interrupted by Charles. 

"OUT!" All four of them yelled at the same time, which had the desired effect and terrified Charles as a lovely bonus. 

"I'm making a group chat now," Anjelica said with another curious glance in Dani's direction, "girl's night is on." 

[kuno-chan]

Daemon Targaryen Is Not a Good Person

But he's a Great character.

I think this fandom (as so many fandoms nowadays) are getting their wires crossed with "Complicated, Compelling Character" and "Morally Understandable Character."

Daemon is not a good person. He is actually pretty horrible and if you've read Fire and Blood, you know this. You know what is coming and the things he does.

He is a fucking compelling character. A great character. Complicated and you want to follow him. You want to see what he gets up to. Who he cares about. How he treats them, who he loves and who he hates.

Do I think he's a monster? If we're defining a monster as Joffrey Baratheon, then no. I don't think he's actually a monster (yet?) and I'll agree with the show directors on that. If the standard is Joffrey, there are not actually that many characters that are true monsters.

But Daemon is not a good person. I'd say he's not super far from monsterdrom, here, okay.

He enjoys power. He wants the throne. That's the motivation for his entire character (shocker in Game of Thrones) and he's written super well. The show doesn't shy away from who he is and what he wants. They're just saying "He doesn't necessarily enjoy the pain of his direct family members" and, even "I don't like seeing my family members sad and that makes me sad" which like...

That's not a high bar. The bar is in hell, actually.

He loves his family.

He loves his brother.

He loves his niece.

He also wants to be on his brother's throne. He also wants to use his niece to get on that throne. He also terrorized a city in the name of "crime reduction" which was really a flex on power and to be able to make a city fear him. He also bought out a pleasure house to celebrate the death of his nephew meaning he was the primary heir again.

~~SPOILER WARNING FOR FIRE AND BLOOD~~

WARNING

He also hires two guys to kill one of Aegon, son of VIserys, children. One of whom threatens to fucking rape the little girl if the mother does not choose which one of them fucking dies. Then kills the one she did not fucking choose. You cannot morally justify that. You can't. Regardless of WHY he did it and for what retaliation. Even if he did not order those things specifically, he knew who he was hiring.

Time will tell if they include this in the show, but I wouldn't hold my breathe of them not doing so.

END SPOILERS

He's kind of like Show!Stannis Baratheon. You can still like him, but you can't really forget he's burning people alive in the name of conquest. Same with Dany.

The show is bad people doing bad things to other bad people.

Daemon is one of the more interesting bad people. That's all.

And I love his character, mind you. I can understand some of his logic, maybe. Wouldn't say a lot of it is Excusable in a moral sense.

Fandom needs to rectify this weird shame about liking characters who are actually pieces of shit. Fiction is where you get to enjoy following and exploring these pieces of shit because, in real life, you would despise them and everything they are.

Doesn't mean you're laughing and in glee in all the ways and scenes in which they're being shitty, but you absolutely can find someone who is committing horrible acts of humanity compelling as all hell because they as a fictional character are interesting. You can find them thought-provoking. You can find them chilling.

Viserys is also not a good man.

(Slight Spoilers but you guys can guess this, honestly)

Rhanyera will not be a good person.

Barely one main character in this show is going to be on the morally upstanding side of the compass. So, if you need that in your media consumption, this might not be the show for you.

(End)

TLDR:

Daemon has always been a pretty fucking terrible person who is written in a very human way and that makes him a great character. He has/will have character development, but that doesn't change that he's a p shitty person. The books and the show are not shying away from this. You don't have to excuse it. Still fun to watch.

Those things can and should co-exist.