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juushika · 7 years ago

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Homestuck liveblog part 3: Vriska, Terezi, and characterization; “let me tell you about homestuck” is “let me explain quadrants”; Karkat/Karkat OTP

me: You know sollux is pretty great tho Canon mental health issues Can see vision of his own death Generally a seer but with like a lot of angst and bodily suffering “I’ll copy/paste less now that the typing quirks are insane,” I said, like a big liar http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003985

TA: ii al2o talk two you becau2e iin ca2e you havent notiiced ii de2pii2e my2elf and perpetually 2eek two dupliicate through emotiional paiin the cacophony of phy2iical paiin my hiideou2 mutant braiin cau2e2 me every day.

Sollux is pretty great

Missy: hah i read like.. 4/5 words some i just go.. meh fuck it

me: Sometimes the trolls will find each other’s typing quirks confusing Which functions both to normalize some of the text for the viewer And to be like lol we know this is ridiculous I appreciate the meta When one troll will repeat what another troll says but with different typing quirks

me: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003986 Sollux to karkat:

TA: the only thiing youre good at ii2 yelliing and makiing huge mii2take2.

Same tho

me: Nopeeeeee time to meet vriska Preemptive feels Abort abort The way that she engages interpersonal relationships reminds me too much of myself Especially with tavros??? Who is a small angel which better nature dictates we must protect at all costs Which spoiler is not what happens!!

me: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004078

AG: Can I join your team? CG: YES I’M GLAD YOU ASKED, BECAUSE THERE IS A WIDE OPEN SLOT FOR THE MOST VILE BACKSTABBING SOCIOPATH WHO EVER LIVED. CG: YOU REALLY HELPED ME OUT OF A JAM BY STEPPING FORWARD. AG: Vile 8acksta88ing sociopath? Karkat, did you copy and p8ste that phrase directly from your personal ad descri8ing what you are looking for in a lady?

CG: BECOMING FRIENDS, WHAT THE FUCK. CG: WE WILL NEVER BE FRIENDS, MORON. AG: Not even h8 friends? CG: NO. MORE LIKE TWITCHY EYED PROJECTILE VOMITING IN UTTER DISGUST FRIENDS, WHILE I PERFORATE MY BONE BULGE WITH A CULLING FORK. AG: Yessssssss. I’ll take it! CG: GET LOST.

Vriska makes me!!! uncomfortable!!! What’s particularly interesting here is that karkat is super obsessed with quadrants which is how trolls conceptualize their interpersonal relationships And they have a dark side to the quadrants which are animosity-fueled relationships So he is actually in desperate search of hate friends So in his own way the answer is yes He said that he is also really bad at communicating his wants with other people but also with himself, he’s very bad at honesty and self-knowledge So the answer is also no And also yes My babies

Missy: Can I just hate hate the stupid drivers? [from longer story about being stuck in traffic QQ] No friends?

me: Yes that is allowed It probably won’t be this personality- and life path-defining interaction Like it is for trolls But that’s probably a good thing

Missy: I remember you like karkat and want to be vriska From long ago* But that all i remember

me: Vriska is very black romantic inclined Also approximately a sociopath, hurts people a lot…really cruel And then I’m like oh my God is this dream-me Well, that bodes well

Missy: Yes that See

* chatlog from 2011 (!!!!), which is what Missy remembered from long ago:

me: it's a few things [which make me feel uncomfortable about identifying with Vriska] it's 1) a different set of morality than yours (general you) I sympathize with that it's similar to but not quite amorality which I think we all have that inside but because I hate people mine is pretty pronounced so I understand hers but the 2) is harder to phrase it's sorta Ayn Randian to be honest she's selfish, and violent, and really just a murderous monster, but that interior morality doesn't just justify it to her, it makes the issue moot you don't need to justify what you know to be innately correct, even if others don't see it your way BUT she has second thoughts because her interior morality/rules are not as fixed or indeed as ... countercultural [or even cultural] as she thinks in fact in being so secure in them and the belief that they don't need to be justified is actually her being ... defensive and for good cause, and she’s partially in the right but not to the extent she's arguing she is so like killing and hurting people as a form of self-expression is not innately bad, except that it is and where am I going with this... I understand the conflict between "my rules are different, which is okay" and "my rules contradict yours, which is problematic"

Missy: i sorta get it. except with that i don't read homestuck so this is all theoretical and without context

me: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004120

“It should be noted that in troll language, the word for friend is exactly the same as the word for enemy.”

Equius is…. So weird…. I’ve never known what to do with this character

Missy: ?

me: God it’s just a lot of tealdeer, uh Trolls have a caste system based on blood color which is sort of outdated but still carries social prejudices he’s really obsessed with it but sort of embodies the obsession via what amounts to fetishes and d/s dynamics Which are intentionally played to be embarrassing for the reader So it’s like this interesting aspect of troll culture combined with embarrassment squick and just I never know what to do with it He’s not an attractive character Profoundly not He also wants to roleplay being bossed around by higher castes No homo And he’s a furry Still no homo!!!! He makes me Uncomfortable

me: equius is SO CONFUSING i am so confused also i remember why i never latched on to terezi in the long run her character … re … development…. by which I mean that when we flash back to the troll origin stories her characterization is less consistent she’s actually super justice-y it’s just that troll justice/legal system is super tyrannical and violent and doesn’t mesh well with humans, so it came across v murdertime from human PoV but i legit think her earlier dialog doesn’t adequately reflect that distinction and so her character (retroactive) development is still inconsistent i think i remember her flying off the handle in later acts tho and becoming murder so we’ll see [future Juu: nope this did not pan out; my earlier argument stands] http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Terezi_Pyrope

Terezi can be civil, flirty, manipulative, and derisive in her interactions. Her drive for justice results in some callous and cruel actions, the majority of which she has been shown to be deeply affected by and regret later on.

yeah i… like that balance: deeply regret the doing of what one must because one can but i much prefer earlier characterization of just “because one can” i really--like, as much as hussie has everything pre-written in his head i really think her characterization is uneven and just sort of….unwrites earlier (publication order not internal chronology) interactions like HEY DAVE WHAT DOES YOUR BLOOD TASTE LIKE or when she tricked john into killing himself and destroying the entire game session (which is “punishment for jack noir/the way the kids play their session” but there’s nooooooooo indication of that in dialog i srsly think it’s just retconned if it’s explained at all) yeah wiki really doesn’t have good explanation for the murdering john thing b/c it’s inconsistent so there, homestuck! p.s. earlier terezi was better but i guess vriska makes her redundant since she does just murder for murder’s sake that said vriska doing the murder is why she and terezi stop being frand, which seems like just poor writing/further (retroactive) character development

me: Time travel (from troll relative perspective) had begun!! You know what that means Time for karkat to realize his true potential to hate himself

Missy: Time for your feels you mean (Pt 8383939/8382962882)

me: He is leaving memos to his past/future self!!! I love him So much Like no exaggeration Top 10 fav

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004447

CCG: FUTURE ME, DON’T YOU FUCKING DARE WEIGH IN ON THIS, I KNOW WHAT YOU’RE THINKING. CCG: IF I WERE FUTURE ME, WHICH I GUESS I AM, I WOULD READ THIS AND BE ALL OVER IT, LIKE DAMMIT KARKAT WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU’RE DOING. CCG: GET TO THE POINT. FUTURE carcinoGeneticist [FCG] 0:20 HOURS FROM NOW responded to memo. FCG: YEAH PRETTY MUCH. CCG banned FCG from responding to memo.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004467

FCG: OH GOD, NOW I’M ARGUING WITH CURRENT ME. FCG: I DIDN’T EVEN NOTICE I WAS DOING IT, THIS IS REALLY FUCKED UP. FCG: I’VE GOT TO PULL IT TOGETHER.

I love!!!! Karkat as everyone’s fucking romance councilor is.. it’s so good….. Like He is so obsessed with romance, so actually a great person to go to for advice about it, and actually surprisingly emotionally accessible when he wants to be Except where the relationships involve him Even in pale romances aka what we think of as friendship or animosity Then he gets over-performative or defensive or just locked up He really values and understands these things but is unable to access them Instead, and I know I’ve written about this before but, his most meaningful and complex and intimate and antagonistic relationship Is with Himself I love him so much and like the weird narrative techniques of HS are what make this possible, they’re not just gimmicks, they’re ways of exploring something unique but identifiable further http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004467

FCG: NOT THAT I EXPECT YOU TO GIVE A SHIT BUT PERSONALLY I AM ALL TWISTED UP ABOUT BLACKROM STUFF ESPECIALLY. FCG: HONESTLY I DON’T THINK I WAS CUT OUT TO HAVE A KISMESIS, I THINK MY STANDARDS ARE WAY TOO HIGH. FCG: DID YOU KNOW THAT… FCG: THIS FEELS SO INSANE TO ADMIT, BUT FCG: OVER THE COURSE OF THIS ADVENTURE, AT TIMES I ACTUALLY BEGAN TO SUSPECT I WAS MY OWN KISMESIS. FCG: HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT???

¡!!!!!!!! !!!!!! !!!!!!!!! Kismesis is uh black romantic arch nemesis with sexual intimacy

http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Quadrants

in other words, kismesissitude seems to be based on a mix of hatred and sexual attraction. As it thrives on a rivalry between two trolls, defeating or killing your kismesis is discouraged, since obviously there wouldn’t be a relationship anymore. However, despite the stronger hatred aspect of the relationship, in order for a kismesis to last there must be some level of respect between the those persons involved; the tension in kismesissitude relies not only on hatred and annoyance of ones more irksome aspects, but also a level of admiration for their more positive aspects

even more http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004467

FCG: BUT OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT TRUE, I NEVER EVEN DID ANY LEGIT TIME TRAVELING WHERE I COULD MEET MYSELF, I JUST BICKERED WITH PAST AND FUTURE GHOSTS ON A CHAT CLIENT. FCG: FITTING REALLY. EVERY CALIGINOUS ADVERSARY I’VE CONTEMPLATED HAS ELUDED ME LIKE A PHANTOM, EVEN MYSELF!

Legit my fav… interaction…. Thing… Of all time

me: problems with terezi 1) that “when i became a visible character” altered characterization 2) the flushed relationship with karkat it starts offscreen as a noodle incident … thing their interactions after that are good--like, silly, but i can accept them but what sparked the start of the relationship? the soonest we see is when she violates his privacy to find out the color of his blood, which … has class-connotations for trolls, also violent connotations even tho it was a non-violent act, but basically it’s a … like it reads as blackrom, then whips around to a cutsey redrom the way trolls initially feel about each other (& humans) vs how their relationships develop/want vs need/the general emotional maturation occurring within their complex social system is super neato but sometimes what hussie ships doesn’t …. make sense?? in the sense of making a cogent arc for either/any involved character and/or has problematic repercussions specifically within human social constructs, like “i physically abused you to the point of paralysis b/c i liked you” aka vriska who ends up in redrom relationship with tavros??????? (briefly!) like they have An Energy but the “hitting as sign of embarrassed affection x10000” is not a SUPER great thing to depict (inverted a bit b/c vriska is female so it isn’t just straight-up rape culture really but STILL, a BAD START) sollux and feferi end up together b/c she kisses him to wake his dream-self after he dies???? with ZERO prior interaction on-screen?????? hussie also sets up “trolls don’t gender” and then all the trolls mostly end up in hetero relationships so that’s also weird like karkat’s intense initial blackrom crush on john being played as a joke, a lol it’s funny both b/c karkat is desperate and b/c gayyyyyyyyyyyyyy the saving grace is that a lot of these relationships are eventually unwritten b/c the trolls are like going through adolescence lots of hookups and then character growth and then breakup, sometimes played super well

me: oh interesting the wiki categories things … differently so btw http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Quadrants#Quadrant_Vacillation

Often in quadrant vacillations one party will have red feelings while the other one has black feelings. Usually one party will adjust their feelings to match their partner’s emotions, but this is not always the case. This sort of relationship volatility is one of the reasons why auspistice is an important part of troll culture.

is my life goal like, kismesis is my love but matesprit/kismesis double reacharound “it’s complicated and also violent” is ….hannibal and also my dream!!

Due to the multiple relationship types and the demands of troll society, trolls form groups and chains of Matesprits and Kismesises. A quadrangle is the simplest complete form of such a group of relationships. It consists of four trolls with two Matespritships and two Kismesissitude between them. If one pairing in a relationship group swaps its relationship type it can force all other relationships within the group to swap as well.

polyamory goals~

why is it not me

me: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004553

EB: but also i know that it is probably not exactly an empty threat! EB: since one of you already managed to trick me into getting myself killed. EB: well, in another timeline at least. AG: Man. AG: That was pro8a8ly Terezi! I should have known she would pull something like that. What a meddler. EB: terezi? AG: Yes. The pesky 8lind troll who licks her monitor and smells words and stuff. The one who got you killed. I’m sure of it!

(john’s first convo with vriska) and it MAKES NO SENSE why would you go, oh yes, that person obsessed with righteous justice/vengeance who got so mad at me hurting others that they did a big revenge on me; obviously SHE tricked you to your death it’s an obvious attempt to retcon sense into her inconsistent characterization

me: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/test_index.php?s=6&p=004561

EB: heheh. car cat. that is how i am saying that. EB: beep beep, meow!

(Missy later told me that he had been thinking “beep beep, meow” every time I talked about Karkat and still isn’t sure if it’s b/c I have quoted this to him before or b/c he parallel-evolved John’s phrase)

me: kanaya/rose is the otp to end all otps tho so i guess that’s nice, that the most convincing, meaningful romance is between women, nice job redeeming yourself hussie

Missy: why does he need redeeming? i thought you liked these people

me: hussie is creator

Missy: yes but why he need redemption? do we all need redemption? (deep thoughts there Missy)

me: hussie has Shipping Problems where he sets up his trolls as outside gender binary/outside heterosexuality/with different concepts of romantic relationships and sexuality and then … conforms to heteronormativity like 90% of the time, in part b/c this was written like 7 years ago, in part b/c he’s a generic white dude but he frequently aims for like, diverse characters and dynamics and then defaults to everyone is heteronormative even when it doesn’t make sense/even if the writing for it is lazy/even if it means going against prior established characterization or interactions the true heteronormativity-conquers-all narrative; miss me with that please but every now and then he actually does something approximating the diversity in his worldbuilding, and gracefully so that’s nice

#/#//#///#////#/////#Juu reads #Homestuck #conversations with Missy #spoilers be ye warned #heterosexism tw //#flashing gif under the cut

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