#how the fuck do you go from “censorship is a slippery slope no matter who does it” to

[hazbinbabbling4ever]

Ah yes, let's listen and give space to the fascists saying that there's only two genders, let's be polite, respectful and civil while they strip away everyone's rights. Let's find compromises with people who quite literally want to violently repress all minorities, that worked so well these past 10 years. I definitely need to earn the respect of fascists like Trump and cronies.

Let's compare a thing that happened literally today (the two genders) with something that never happened and doesn't have the numbers to ever become a threat (who the fuck ever said we want to call all mothers breast feeders anyway???). "If you aren’t willing to listen to Trump et al. “because they’re wrong anyway, because they want to deport immigrants and kill trans people” dingdingding guess what? That’s fascism knocking at your door." Did I literally just read this stupid ass sentence?? He wants to deport immigrants, he's literally taking the steps right now. He's taking steps to take away all trans rights, starting with taking away protection for trans people in jail. Are you calling people not willing to listen to this crap and pushing back against all this,. fascists?? I have no words for how stupid this is. What's happening right now is not bigotry. That was maybe 10 years ago. We're now directed onto pure fascism destroying everything. It's exactly this kind of both-sides nihilistic bullshit that landed us in this climate. It's the millions of "oh he isn't that bad after all just listen to him" that allowed Trump to be elected. No one pushed back enough and now this. We definitely won't get rid of fascism by becoming pals and chums with violent people who sprout violent nonsense, standing by while they wreak havoc onto entire countries, or worse, by allowing them to take away the rights of this or that minority, as long as they promise to be really good to us.

it's true and you should say it.

[firegiftlouis]



I agree with you in regards to this ao3 thing. All I have to say to people coming at you is: You all sound like people who have no idea how the world works and have no idea what fascism is. Also as a white person, I know 100% for a fact that no matter how much I empathize with the struggles poc face, I can in no way meaningfully understand what experiencing systematic racism feels like and neither can you despite the hardships your ancestors faced. This has nothing to do with the actual fall into fascism the US and other countries are currently facing and saying you stand by the archive doing fuck all while saying you understand because of *insert minority not relevant to the discussion here* is mind boggling. Please step back and ask yourself how you somehow found yourself on the side of racists in the fanfiction community instead of you know, on the side of people trying to do something about it.

Well said, it’s honestly very wild seeing people accusing this call to action from ao3 (on something they themselves promised a few years back) as a way of supporting censorship or even outright going the slippery slope argument of saying it will lead to fascism (it’s called a fallacy for a reason guys).

It’s especially wild when you consider the fact that in the US, people with actual power have been trying to remove Black history and anything else they consider “critical race theory” from school curriculum, hell if I’m not mistaken, in some places that was first on the chopping block before they moved on to their anti-lgbtq+ and anti feminist pushback. So I can assure people that I’m far from pro censorship, I’m just anti harassment and I have yet to see a website collapse in on itself simply for having basic policies against racial harassment.

[unpopularfanopinion]

@pressed-poppy  (because this is a side-blog and I can’t reply)

You are definitely using the slippery slope argument though. It doesn’t matter that there are actual people who complain about grey areas. In fact, I never denied people are complaining about grey area’s nor did I say I agree with those complaints. My point is that you’re using THOSE examples to justify not having to do anything. That is literally the slippery slope argument.

Who is doing nothing?

I am doing my personal best to recognize and unlearn the racial biases I have grown up with. In real life I offer support for black activist and vote for candidates that that I believe will support and build on policies that lead to greater equality and social justice. Which I admit at times doesn’t feel nearly enough, but I am also a single person who doesn’t have much, there is only such much I can do as an individual.

Ao3 is building better tools for POC authors to protect themselves from harassment.

Neither of those is “nothing”

The only thing they’re not doing is creating a system that will allow for censorship of fan authors, which you know goes against their entire mission statement

Is there a reason why you are ignoring the efforts Ao3 is working toward making the site better and safer for all fans? Is it because you don’t think it is enough? What would you prefer Ao3 to do? And how do you propose they do it without any unintended consequences that will ultimately hurt fans and POC?  You admit there are bad faith actors, how would you propose dealing with them?

And I’m sure you think you’re smart and clever by claiming the “slippery slope” argument as if that invalidates what I’m saying, but take a step back and think about what feminist say when they protest laws and regulations that limit abortion. They point out that these laws won’t reduce abortion. They point out that women will die because of these laws. They are also making slippery slop arguments. That doesn’t make their arguments or points any less true or valid.

 And you’re also again repeating the cultural relativism argument that I already disagreed with. Why would it change my mind this time? All I expressed is that these are dangerous and conservative tactics, not used by people who mean well. It’s shady.

I’m starting to think you don’t actually understand what cultural relativism is. Cultural relativism means not looking at another culture and judging them by our standards. You don’t think of another culture is ignorant, barbaric, or in any way “lesser” to your own because they do things differently(like eat food you consider gross, or your that culture has taught you is unclean) than your culture. And is meant to be used by anthropologists to avoid ethnocentrism with studying other cultures.

People have mis-used and conflated cultural relativism with moral relativism which is the idea that all view points can be equally valid, and therefore tolerant people should be tolerant of intolerant beliefs and view points(and just to make my self clear, not i do not agree with that idea. I am well aware of the Intolerance Paradox)

And really I not even making either a cultural relativism, or moral relativism argument. I am merely pointing out that even if you got everyone to agree Racism is BAD!(and yes it’s sad you would not be able to get everyone to agree to that) you would not be able to get them to agree on a single, codified guideline of what racism looks like, and what counts as racism, or racial bigotry.  Which again is what Ao3 would need if they were going to censor works based on “racism” while still being fair to all users.  And again you admit to bad faith actors and grey areas existing, but at the same time seem to want to ignore them.

And again you seem insistent on taking all my statements in the worst and most nefarious manner and calling it shady.  Honestly it sounds like you’ve already decide which side you agree with on the Ao3 discourse, but just don’t want to say it for some reason.  Needless to say. that is shady as fuck.

[k00263329]

‘THE DOWNWARD SPIRAL’ - NINE INCH NAILS

RESEARCH: THE MAAMTRASNA MURDERS

Today I visited the Maamtrasna murder house in Connemara. 

I decided to use these images for “A Warm Place”. 

This is the section of the album where our protagonist gives pause to his violent crusade and delirium to reflect on what he has become. 

Visiting this place was an incredibly sobering experience for me. My excitement over visiting my first “murder house” was dampened to a somber sinking feeling in my stomach when I realised this pile of rocks was once a home to a family, who I’m sure loved each other and shared many happy memories here. Despite the conditions in which they lived, this was their ‘warm place’. 

And then one day that was all erased, in an act of senseless violence. 

The Downward Spiral was released on Interscope Records in 1994. Anyone who has seen Netflix’s ‘The Defiant Ones’ will know the story of Interscope Records, and how they were the target of many political and religious groups blaming them for obscenity for acts on their roster that included not only Nine Inch Nails, but also Trent Reznor’s protégé Marilyn Manson. 

However, Interscope’s biggest sellers at the time were none other than Death Row Records, who were instigators of what would become the infamous west coast / east cost rivalry that would eventually take the lives of each sides mouth-pieces, Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B.I.G. 

Visiting this place gave me a sense of “what exactly am I doing?” I wanted great content, but I didn’t really consider what it was I actually wanted to say by being here. Does this have actual relevance to my project or do I just think it’s “kinda cool”. 

Trent Reznor claimed for years that it was pure coincidence that he took up residence in 10050 Cielo Drive., a claim he ended up eventually retracting as he admitted that he did know this information and it did influence his decision to purchase the property. Reznor eventually met Sharon Tate’s sister, Debra, during his time in the house, who pulled no punches with him: 

While I was working on Downward Spiral, I was living in the house where Sharon Tate was killed. Then one day I met her sister. It was a random thing, just a brief encounter. And she said: “Are you exploiting my sister’s death by living in her house?” For the first time the whole thing kind of slapped me in the face. I said, “No, it’s just sort of my own interest in American folklore. I’m in this place where a weird part of history occurred.” I guess it never really struck me before, but it did then. She lost her sister from a senseless, ignorant situation that I don’t want to support. When she was talking to me, I realized for the first time, “What if it was my sister?” I thought, “Fuck Charlie Manson.” I don’t want to be looked at as a guy who supports serial-killer bullshit.

I went home and cried that night. It made me see there’s another side to things, you know? It’s one thing to go around with your dick swinging in the wind, acting like it doesn’t matter. But when you understand the repercussions that are felt . . . that’s what sobered me up: realizing that what balances out the appeal of the lawlessness and the lack of morality and that whole thing is the other end of it, the victims who don’t deserve that.

The topic of censorship is something that, as an artist, I feel strongly against, under any circumstances. It is a slippery slope that I feel undermines our intelligence as a people and is a step in the direction of Nazi book burning ceremonies and “pray the gay away” camps. 

That being said, as artists I feel like we are responsible for what we put out in the world and the effect it has on other people. If that effect is negative or misunderstood, it is up to us to either stand by it or deal with the fall out, just as any parent would with their own children, for whom they are responsible. 

In the end, I was glad I came here. 

[sinnhelmingrmoved]

How many people were killed by the Vikings who did so in the name of their gods? I don't care if you don't like something. Don't engage with it. But Hannibal Lecter is based on a real serial killer with real victims. You are doing moral backbends to make one thing okay and one thing not okay. If you don't like a type of media - don't engage with it. If you are going to become the morality police it is a slippery slope into censorship.

ok anon. last call. 

tl;dr: you don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about and if you want to engage anymore you're gonna have to do it off anon.

i don’t have to defend myself because literally at no point have i played morality police or called for censorship. i simply and openly state that i find aspects of an account disgusting for personal reasons, and thus i would like to block them. you, on the other hand, are committed to trying to find your big ‘gotcha!’ moment for reasons i do not and frankly don’t care to understand. you continue to slander an entire historical group just to fluff up your own argument like i even have a dog in that fight, though you kind of suck at research if you’re just relying on a lot of bullshit rather than historical fact.

you’re literally comparing thousand year old actions to the decisions of a woman who has not even been gone ten years. that’s not how it works. i want to believe you are very young and know no better, that to you all things are equal, but that is not how the world works. there are no reparations to be made for warfare so ancient that most of the names are forgotten, nor is someone in a worse way today for those things having happened. you cannot say that about the subject at hand. please learn from this, and shut the fuck up.

your points are irrelevant to the conversation at hand and in a matter of hours will not even matter. these messages will be deleted. anon will still be off.  no one will know who you are but by memories of witty statements in the comments of your asks, things that will make us all laugh at this in the future. you will still be the fool who wants to talk a good game but not sign off with their actual account, while still holding your ‘respect’ over my head like it’s something i should be jumping for. either the blog that started all of this has already deleted or will be blocked by multiple people, and it will no longer be an issue. you, however, continue to make it one, and unfortunately i have played into that by giving you a soapbox to spew your brainrot.

[demented-dukey]

"Reasons Why I Ship RemRom" Masterlist

(Companion to "Reasons Why I Shouldn’t Ship Remrom" Masterlist)

I keep getting asked why I ship Rem/Rom, or why anyone would ship Rem/Rom. So. Here’s a list of possible reasons (You can also find more information about why people ship fictional incest on Fanlore.org).

Some apply to me personally, some do not, but I will use the term “I/Me” in all of the following sentences (in no particular order, numbered for ease of reference):

1. Because Thomas likes the theory that all Sanders Sides ships are an expression of self-love. Thomas’s quotes from the live stream include him saying, "What are my thoughts on sides ships? Guys, I really don't care." "I think that, in the realm of fanfiction, you guys, like, you guys do what you're doing. I'm not here to squash or rain on anybody's parade." "I don't like to stifle people's creativity in that aspect. Fanfiction, you guys, do whatever creatively is in your heart."

2. Because it’s just conceptual. Joan said in a Tumblr post that they were brothers conceptually, NOT biologically, in the same way Patton is a dad or Logan is a teacher. It’s a concept or trope, like the phrase “brothers in arms”, so that Remus could allude to Thomas’s dreams and the biblical quotes.

3. Because they are NOT really brothers. It isn’t really incest. All the sides are equally fictional. They split from the same original idea, so technically that makes them clones, or selfcest. They might call themselves brothers, but it’s just a nickname, I don’t feel like they’re brothers. Thomas and Joan have said multiple times that the sides are not separate personalities - Character Thomas does not have DID - all of the sides are just aspects of a single personality, so any pairing of any of the sides is just elaborate masturbation or selfcest.

4. Because they ARE really brothers/twins. Yes, I think this is incest, and I ship it anyway. Twins are hot, and incest is kinky. There is a whole porn industry cashing in on the idea that siblings are hot, and twins are even hotter. Relationships are built on shared experiences, and brothers have that in spades!

5. Because it DOESN’T MATTER whether or not they are brothers. I don’t really care about whether it’s incest or not, I would still ship Remus and Roman either way. I like each of their characters, and I like exploring the dynamic of how they would match each other in a romantic relationship.

6. Because canon was made to be broken. Maybe they’re brothers in canon, but people write fanfic in all kinds of different AUs where the characters are all kinds of different creatures with all kinds of different relationships. Why can’t I write something where they aren’t related and they fall in love?

7. Because technically Remus and Roman are two halves of the same fusion. To borrow from “Steven Universe” for a second, Sapphire and Ruby form Garnet, and that’s totally acceptable. But what happens when you reverse it? What if Garnet was created first, and then they split into Sapphire and Ruby? Is it then Not Okay? Why? The basic premise is still exactly the same - Garnet is still a whole being/relationship/experience, and Sapphire and Ruby are what happens when you split Garnet up into separate halves. Why is combining a fusion okay, but splitting one is not? The fusion of Thomas was split to form Morality, Logic, Creativity, etc. We now know that Creativity was split again to form Roman and Remus. Therefore, shipping Roman and Remus is no more incestual than any other two sides.

8. Because Remus and Roman are literally ~soulmates~.  In Plato’s story of soulmates, the story goes that humans originally had four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces. Zeus split the humans in half, and each human would forever long for his/her other half; the other half of his/her soul. It’s fate that they are drawn to each other!

9. Because fuck you, that’s why. I don’t have to explain myself to you. Who do you think you are, the Purity Police? Fuck you.

10. Because of “Reasons” that I don’t feel comfortable sharing. I have my reasons, and I demand my privacy. I do not require anyone’s stamp of approval. My reasons are mine.

11. Because of petty spite. There have been so, so many anti-ship posts telling me not to ship them that now I ship them out of spite. I wasn’t even thinking about the pairing until the antis put it in my head. The more people tell me I can’t, the more I want to. I’m wacky like that.

12. Because RemRom is forbidden fruit. I’m attracted to things that are forbidden. If this is wrong, then I don’t wanna be right!

13. Because... I don’t know? I just kinda want to, and I don’t know why? Not everyone sits down and makes lists of justifications of why they ship what they ship. Why should I have to have a reason? Who decides what reasons are “valid enough”? I’m really a big ball of confusion as to the ‘why’, all I know is that I want to see the boys kiss. Isn’t that enough of a reason? I think, therefore I am?

14. Because the Prince and the Duke are both Royalty. Royalty and Incest go hand in hand, like peanut butter and jelly! Everybody knows royalty only marries other royalty, and all those generations of inbreeding makes it hard to find royalty that isn’t incest, am I rite?

15. Because Moxiety is an acceptable ship, but RemRom is “controversial”. Moxiety is as much incestual as RemRom. Patton/Virgil have a Father/Son vibe going for them. They’ve referred to each other in canon as “kiddo” and “popstar”, and multiple times Patton has called Virgil his “child”. But both platonic and romantic relationships are still combined under the same “Moxiety” tag, and it is accepted and welcomed in the fandom despite the incestual undertones.

16. Because it’s simple math. If Thomas Sanders is hot, then 2x Thomas Sanders is twice as hot, right?

17. Because of Rule 34 of the internet. If a thing exists, then porn of it is on the internet. Somebody’s gonna ship it, so it mineswell be me.

18. Because I have Intrusive Thoughts. I already have a little Remus in my head, and writing about the sick, twisted things he whispers to me is the only way I can tire him out so I can get some peace and rest.

19. Because I AM an Incest Survivor. I have been through a traumatic experience, and reading/writing about it in a fictional setting helps me process my trauma.

20. Because I am NOT an Incest Survivor. Science has proven that reading fiction can help boost your empathy by practicing your ability to see the world through other people’s eyes, whether it be the author's or a character's. I’ve never experienced incest, but I want to be better able to empathize with people who have. I also read Abusive/Unsympathetic!Character fanfic so I can recognize warning signs, and so I know how to act in order to not be abusive to others in Real Life.

21. Because Incest is bad/dirty/wrong/gross. I like dark topics, and I find it interesting to explore taboo subjects in fiction. Murder is wrong, child abuse is wrong, but fiction is still written about them. Topics that are “wrong” are still worthy topics to write about - nay, they are even MORESO worthy of being written about in fiction because they are so taboo and not talked about in real life!

22. Because Incest between Consenting Adults is NOT wrong. I don’t think it's “hot” or “kinky” or anything. I just think it's okay for two consenting adults who are related to be in a relationship if it's love.

23. Because Fiction does not equal Reality. Fiction is a safe space to explore topics that would be horrific in real life. Murder Mystery writers do not kill people in real life, and I don’t condone or commit incest in real life. 

24. Because too much self-censorship is exhausting and can be damaging over time. It stifles creativity when I’m constantly scrutinizing and discarding every idea for being immoral and problematic. I already have these thoughts, and repressing them doesn't help.

25. Because censorship is a slippery, slippery slope. Where do we draw the lines, and who gets to decide? Where does it stop? If the characters become step-siblings because their parents got married, is it still incest? How long do two people have to live in close physical and emotional proximity before it crosses that line? Is it okay to ship clones, because they are exactly the same person, and it’s basically just masturbation? How long do clones have to live separate lives and have separate experiences before they become indistinguishable from twins, and it’s no longer okay to ship them? Is it homophobic to take a slash pairing and genderswap only one of the people? What if I headcanon one of the characters as trans, does that make turning a slash pairing into a het pairing okay now? Is it okay to make a canon straight character gay, but not okay to make a canon gay character straight? What if I headcanon a gay character as bi, then is it okay to put them in a “straight” relationship? Can I ship same-age teenagers, or is that pedophilia? Or is it okay to ship them, as long as it’s not explicit?

26. Because Remus would ship it. Look me in the eye and tell me there is a single kink or taboo Remus, Duke of Unicorn Porn, wouldn’t be 100% in support of. I dare you.

I think I got the most popular reasons? If any pro-shippers have reasons I’m missing and want added to the list, let me know.