#hotd vs succession

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

What do you think of book&show!Rhaenyra as characters? And who do you like more?

Hi anon! I've been turning this one over in my mind since you sent it, because I wanted to give it some thought (and anyone who is sick of reading show critical stuff, just skip this one. I don't hate the show, I just think it's interesting and fun to dig a bit deeper). What it comes down to for me is that while book!Rhaenyra is fun, I wish the show had been braver with their depiction of Rhaenyra.

While book!Rhaenyra's motivations are not particularly complex, I feel like I understand her better than show!Rhaenyra. She hasn't heard a prophesy, nor does she feel any real responsibility toward the kingdom to make her second guess the war; her father had made her heir and that was that. Anyone who disagrees can go ahead and die. Her motivations are not particularly noble or self-sacrificing. If anything, it's the opposite. Book!Rhaenyra loves the finer things in life, she's headstrong, and a bit of a mean girl. She goes after what she wants unapologetically, lies through her teeth and never backs down. Book!Rhaenyra never weighs the consequences of her actions, she is vengeful and reactive. She is given terms which would allow her to keep Dragonstone in perpetuity, and unlike her show counterpart, she doesn't even consider them. She says no outright, even before Luke is killed, and replies to tell Aegon that, "I shall have my crown or I shall have his head." And while surely she values the lives of her sons, you get the sense that she never even considers the danger this war puts them in because losing isn't even an option for her. She's going to win because of course she is. And as a reader, you never question her motivations really because, whether you agree with her or not, it is easy to understand that she is fueled by a self-righteous conviction that she will be taking what she feels belongs to her, and woe be to anyone who gets in her way.

Show!Rhaenyra, on the other hand, is more thoughtful. We see this when she's crying at half-dead Viserys' bedside telling him that being heir is a burden, and we see it when she truly considers Otto's peace offer, when she tears up to see the page that Alicent saved from their girlhood. We see it in how she talks to her sons and in the way she apologizes to Alicent at the dinner table. She seems to have some concept of what is at stake, and understands that the throne is a tremendous burden and responsibility, and that the lives of her people are in her hands, and moreover that she does have the option of backing down. When she considers the peace offer, she very clearly states that the prophesy means that she has a responsibility to keep the realm stable, and maybe it is not the best thing for the realm is to throw it into civil war in order to sit the throne at all costs. But all of this, the added sense of awareness of the enormity of the the responsibility and the desire to do right by the realm, while they make her an easier person to support, also makes a lot of her actions that much harder to understand.

One of my main nitpicks with the show as a whole is that the actions of the book characters do not always fit the personalities of the show characters, and so the characterization seems inconsistent. Rhaenyra is aware of the gravity of her position, she learns about the prophesy and the threat to the realm, and then proceeds to have three bastard children (and this is a problem, because it jeopardizes her position. If she gets caught or Corlys/Laenor change their minds and disavow those kids, it's over for her). We have things like Rhaenyra asking for Aemond to be "sharply questioned," which comes from the book, when the episode before she was offering up a dragon and a Jace/Helaena engagement (a show invention, and even though it's not a great deal for the greens if you give it some thought, it reads to the audience as a peace offering). Or you have her telling Daemon she needs his help to fight the greens, and there's this whole conversation about making their enemies believe they're the kind of people who will kill to protect Rhaenyra's claim, but then in episode 8 they have this attempt at reconciliation between Alicent and Rhaenyra and in episode 10 Rhaenyra is going on about how Daemon has "gone to madness, gone to his war." She's seriously entertaining Otto's peace offer (which never happened in the book) while sending her sons off to muster support.

F&B has pretty thin characterization, but what is there comes mostly from the characters' actions and their dialogue. To create a consistent character, the writers needed to start there and ask, what kind of person would say these things and do these things, rather than taking the character they conceived, and trying to shoehorn canon events into that characterization. And the thing is, the show could have created a more fleshed out version of book!Rhaenyra and still made her sympathetic. Take Shiv Roy from Succession, for instance. Shiv is someone who is a victim of misogyny, but also undeniably not the best choice for CEO (neither, of course, are any of her brothers). She's overprivileged and not nearly as experienced or as smart as she thinks she is, she gets in her own way, and in trying to be "one of the boys," she consistently overshoots and alienates actual allies. But she's also a victim of misogyny-- she is expected to provide a woman's touch to delicate matters, but is expected to be as ruthless and cutthroat as the men. Her fuckup brothers are given endless second chances, but Shiv has no such leeway. The specter of motherhood hangs over her constantly-- once she becomes a mother, she will be cast out from the world of men, an asterisk beside her name. And show!Rhaenyra does lean into this a bit (think of Rhaenyra's boobs leaking in the small council, her being stuck giving birth at the moment when leadership is needed in episode 10), but it doesn't commit to the darker side of this. It is not brave enough to make Rhaenyra a bad person as well as a victim.

The thing about Succession is that the show never asked us to view Shiv as good, or as a better choice than her brothers. It didn't even ask us to find her particularly sympathetic, although I certainly do find Shiv sympathetic in some ways. She has a genuine love for her family that makes the moments when she betrays them even more bittersweet, and we can understand her as a pretty bad person while still understanding the ways in which patriarchy screwed her over. In fact, in some ways it was refreshing to see that a woman could be privileged, ruthless and occasionally cruel and still get fucked over (this article is a good breakdown of Shiv-- now imagine a Rhaenyra in this mold!). But central to the difference between HotD and Succession is that Succession doesn't ask us to view the "throne" as a force of good, nor the position as a force of change. The CEO position in Succession is pretty explicitly toxic. Roman refers to the company itself explicitly as a cage. The audience is meant to understand that the person who "wins" is going to be more miserable and more morally compromised as a result. And the Iron Throne is similar. It's a throne made of literal swords! The closer you get to it, the more cursed and compromised you become. But so far, HotD not only insists on casting Rhaenyra as a protagonist, with the addition of the prophesy and the vision of the white hart, winning the throne becomes something she must do for the greater good, her claim something she has been righteously chosen to uphold. And if winning the throne is righteous, then the throne itself must be righteous too. And that's a framing that I don't think can hold up through the Dance, but I fear that the show may have backed itself into a corner by casting Rhaenyra as the correct choice, which inherently frames the throne as something she is right to fight for, no matter the cost to the people, her family, or herself.

[alvsanne]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON | S02E08 SUCCESSION | S04E10

[queenvhagar]

HBO adapting Fire and Blood: "Well we had to choose one side to be the good guys, you can't have a good show where everyone is a terrible person, the audience will have no one to root for, it just won't work!"

Also HBO:

[horizon-verizon]

ON BIRTHRIGHT and RHAENYRA

As another commentator of one of the TikToker Alexa's video said, "birthrights" are not dependent on what time they were given but what group you are a part of.

Here is the definition of "birthright":

Nowhere does it state that it is about timing of when the problem was manually given. It is about a privilege one has ever since they were born. You were either born with that privilege or not, because it is a right/privilege a person has for being born into a particular group of people. A class, a heritage, a lineage, --as the definition above shows under "related" terms to "birthright".

America, Inherited Concepts from Europe

As it is everyone's "birthright" for their communities and governments to provide access to clean water because they are living beings/people and part of said communities. A social class is a sort of group with its own political privileges and "rights". The English settlers and those descendants who called themselves the new American citizens, "founded" the new country, and drafted the Constitution conceived of "birthright" as being for those white persons both born on the "soil" of the former colonies--these were considered citizens--AND those who were were born out of the colonies (the West Indies or Scotland) but participated in the Revolutionary movement in some significant way were the only those deemed eligible to become a president:

Obviously this shows an instance of the creation of an institution to be exclusive to those of an already existing socioeconomic group: rich, white, male property owners who no coincidentally also had more access to a political education inherited from their former European and English ancestry from childhood.

Application to Hereditary Monarchy (and Aristocracy)

A royal class or rank is an example of a human social group with its own exclusive "rights" to a thing, and in their case to certain privileges or access to resources and power. One such privilege is their place in the royal succession and even within their group, some have more privilege or right than others depending on how related they are to the monarch. The similar condition is for non royal aristocratic families. This is how lines of successions work in the sort of monarchist/feudalist system the Westerosi have and the most common and familiar sort of transfers of power and/or property.

Therefore, all royals or people born into royalty, thus related to the present or past monarchs, have a sort of claim on the throne; and sons, daughters are usually above uncles and aunts and cousins or second cousins in noble or royal lines of successions. As the OG Alexa said in her reply to this comment, the Targ royal succession had been in more of an ambiguous state in regards to which family member should have more claim than others in the line of succession: the brother of a king, or his children, or his daughter.

I'm referring to Maegor vs Rhaena or Prince Aegon. Because Maegor was male and visibly stronger and less people pleasing or hesitant than his older brother Aenys, Visenya proposed that they marry Maegor to Rhaena to sort of combine their claims into one AND prevent any sort of succession crisis, and this would have also advanced Maegor as the active heir or Aenys' heir presumptive even over Rhaena. But Aenys' choice to set a stronger precedent for a son over a brother by naming Aegon as his heir apparent and married Rhaena to him. Again, Rhaena was Aenys' oldest child. Aenys performed more of an male-preferred primogeniture bc he thought that making this Andal custom the determining factor for his choice of heir would appease the Faith and enough lords to accept some divergent decisions he will make. One of them marrying his children together. Whereas if he chose Maegor as his heir, then there would have been a precedent for the royal succession to be agnatic, where girls would have even less claim when a brother or a male cousin becomes heir or is above her in the line of succession until girls or just not considered dinnyhe line at all. However, Aenys dies, Maegor kills Aegon, Rhaena later refuses to take the throne or press for it even though she is older than Jarhaerys and there were those who argued towards her favor by her being the firstborn PLUS Jarhaerys had the male-preferred primogeniture supporter Rogar Baratheon, who housed him, Alysanne, and Alyssa Velaryon when Maegor came into power and later raised armies and levies for Jaehaerys against Maegor towards the end. So Jarhaerys became king and later we still have the matter of royal succession opened in the Great Council, where a male line and a male are both voted to matter more. And with both Maegor and Jarhaerys, girls were chosen to be their heir presumptive until such time as they had sons, but eve this choosing a girl as their heir reveals how more arbitrary the royal succession was.

All members of the royal line had a "claim" to the throne. Some obviously have more customary claims or "stronger" and prioritized claims than others because they are more directly related to the present monarch/lord. And the added layer of this being a male-preferred primogeniture society, but this doesn't negate that girls were considered viable heirs. The monarchy of Westeros has always been in more of a flux and a process and circumstantial than you'd think. And with girls and women have having had become ladies in their own independent right at times when there was no male sibling, older or younger, in other houses, yes Westeros is not an agnatic society but male-preferred one that does everything in it's power to promote men but will make use of a woman or girl if there is one, even as just placeholders. (Marla Sunderland Sheira Blackwood).

Before Viserys even named her as his heir apparent, Rhaenyra had a customary birthright to the throne by virtue of the fact that:

1) she was born into the royal family (the social group with certain exclusive rights, the throne in question) and thus a part of the royal line [thus "birthright"

2) she is Viserys' biological first surviving child

Viserys naming her as his heir AND getting those oaths to protect her rights that are also his decision, his royal declaration and thus it becoming law are all really the sealing elements of her birthright. They all revealed what was already true about girls and Rhaenyra's birthrights but was socially and optically undermined by women's social value and men's habitual violence to reinforce their own control and authority over others, and especially women. Violence used against women as well, as with Agnes Blackwood and perhaps Marla Sunderland. Later with Rhaenyra, when Aegon killed her and made Sunfyre eat her.

The Widow's Law

Even when we look to the Widow's Law, we see how Jaehaerys made it so that:

1) the sons of the first wife (thus the older children) had more claim or were legally prioritized to any resources, titles, and leadership-of-house left behind by the lord OVER any of the second/third/etc. wife's kids. If there are no sons by that first wife, then it goes to the eldest daughters of the first wife x the lord.

2) a man could NOT disinherit their kids by their first wife to "bestow lands, seat, or property on a later wife of her children".

QUOTE:

Under both conditions of such law, Rhaenyra, again, we can say has much more customary claims than her brothers born of Alicent, Viserys' 2nd wife. But this is more of a strong option at Rhaenyra's disposal to use than a necessary ingredient to how her claim is default as well as coming from a legitimate birthright and customary. Because of all I mentioned for Viserys naming her, the oaths, etc.

We see that it is, again, a matter of looking at Westerosi society being of men having more privileges and being able to lead armies and households and determining others' futures BECAUSE they EITHER have actively use armies, wars, executions, humiliations, and personal violence and executions against women to and other groups to make way for their own places as heads of those households (violent submission) OR like with the unnamed Lannister woman who married a no Lannister man who then became the head of the household, they have married a House women to a man and those around the couple--be they family or not, just those who had power and an edge over her--decided that it would be that way.

This goes to show what GRRM has already said notably recorded in the So Spoke Martin website, that this is a society where men choose which laws and which customs to either ignore or reemphasize according to their own advantage until it comes down to 'a force of arms'. ":

And it is almost always a deliberate thing to consider the language you are saying when writing up laws. Especially in the 2nd clause of the Widow's Law, Jaehaerys left open who of the first wife's kids had priority over the resources or seats the lord left behind and could bestow on an heir. It says "children" instead of "sons". Even in the first clause, Jaehaerys did not write that the second wife's sons inherited before the first wife's daughters. It just says that the first wife's sons inherit before the first wife's daughters. Thus, the language Jaehaerys uses leaves it open to argue in favor of Rhaenyra if one presses for it from a 'legal' angle instead of a custom one or if you wanted to emphasize the legality of a King's word.

Jaehaerys was not stupid, so why didn't he use more specific language in both clauses that specify a lord's second wife's sons would go before a first wife's daughters? That is the question we should be asking and speculating on, though I have my own conclusions. I think that he wanted to leave things more ambiguous so that he doesn't look like he's infringing too much on a lord's right to make his own heirs....it's just that, like what is ALREADY CUSTOM, he made it so that the eldest children's privileges & rights &/or ways of self sustaining weren't bulled over or removed for a younger child/set of children. It is already custom for the eldest living kid to inherit the most important or largest "things" in the Andal-FM feudalist society.

To Conclude 🫵🏿

Therefore, there is good reason from customary succession conditions in Andal-FM Westerosi history, legal precedent, and largely present conditions, for us the readers to say Rhaenyra had a birthright AND for Rhaenyra to claim Aegon stole her birthright that had been reinforced by the King's word and continued insistence on it.

Even without Viserys naming her as heir, Rhaenyra already had a customary birthright to the throne because she was born into the royal family and inherited the Targaryen heritage itself. Viserys naming her his heir really made her claim the strongest and the priority, despite her gender. Viserys made it official when Aenys' did not. Again, we must remember that Rhaena had supporters after Maegor's death to become Queen AND she said point blank to Jaehaerys that Dragonstone was hers by right of birthright, as the eldest child.

The insistence that Aegon instead of her become the king comes from the agenda of making men lead society regardless of their vices or virtues, as well as have privileges and powers over pretty much anyone who are not as powerful as them or could match them or that they cannot find familiarity.

[horizon-verizon]

Corlys was likely willing to settle for Luke as heir because he was already betrothed to Rhaena.

Before there's a misunderstanding, I'm taking this to mean that bc Rhaena is of his blood through Laena AND bc she is of House Targaryen "officially" (he wants to be close to the crown and Daemon is married to Rhaenyra...Rhaena who has been growing up with this pair since they married very soon after her own mother's death before Rhaena even turned 3-4, like Daemon losing Alyssa when he was 2-4 and maybe having no very little memory of her) and thus Corlys was okay to go along with Luke being his heir but not particularly thrilled about it like Viserys was adamant about Rhaenyra over Aegon.

Because some might take this to mean that he disliked the boys or was held against his will, when the situation is more nuanced and he definitely did have some will and leverage in some instances.

Rhaenyra doesn’t need to use violence to force Corlys’ decision about his heir.

Before more misunderstandings from others, I doubt he would have taken Vaemond's challenge as opportunity to name Vaemond as his heir even if Vaemond was of his blood by being his nephew. Which apart from him making the very dumb decision of openly calling R's sons bastards showing how much of a liability Vaemond was to him and his house and Corlys' own ambitions to be close to the throne, would explain why he was fine relatively with Luke being his heir but preferring someone a lot closer to himself either through him or his son, by name or by "real" blood. I think he wasn't necessarily thrilled about Luke being his heir, either.

Rhaenyra wasn't using force/violence against Corlys bec she couldn't get away with that if she tried, I think she was being insistent and alarmed when she pressed Corlys in his sickbed. She'd definitely seriosuly offend Corlys, as OP states above why, she couldn't afford to do. Plus, Rhaenys would have never allowed such a thing and we know her own character, even if Daemon was behind Rhaenyra with his own dragon. They couldn't afford to lose Rhaenys' support, either. Finally, it wouldn't be either a good look on her to press the leader/heir-maker of another house or try to take advantage while they are sick.

("A Question of Succession")

Rhaenyra had Vaemond killed under the reasoning of his naming her kids bastards explicitly. And yes, of course, it was a way to get rid of competitors for her sons, but mainly the fact that she and his body parts fed to Syrax like how the Queen Dowager Rhaena had her husband Androw Farman's corpse fed to Dreamfyre after he killed all her friends shows that emotion was the leading drive in Rhaenyra's dealing with the Driftmark succession even, her responsein trying to keep her sons and herself safe. Vaemond presented the opportunity once he called her kids bastards in the maybe strategic or tactical point and she maybe could had the thought of her sons benefiting from the act during or after Vaemond's execution/Syrax meal, but it's apparent she acted swiftly, was caught off guard and was not as calculating as one might think. She was already also alarmed by Corlys possibly passing without assuring her son's place and thus more security. Again, another thing others might misunderstand.

While it may have made Rhaenyra look evil and tyrannical--and thus bad for her and her sons' image to other [privileged male] lords (further showing it wasn't that calculated a response) for how violent it was esp the Syrax bit--it also was in still under the declaration the king/her father already made about people who dared tried to call the boys bastards would be executed.

This is all why she doled out violence against Vaemond but not Corlys, Vaemond who was not someone either Corlys nor Rhaenyra had any strong affection, attachment, benefit before or after his "charge", or any other allyship. And again, can't really blame her; Vaemond made clear he was her and her sons' enemy and a danger to them all. She's had years to defend herself and her sons. Goes to show the crap about this system.

House Velaryon follows Andal succession.

True, but I also think that if a house head wanted to, he/they/she can make the choice to choose someone with their name and/or blood despite those laws as it has been done many times before both outside of a war context and in peacetime. We've had Lannisters choose to have a whole different other man not of their house to become the head through marriage to a Lannister woman, for example. Westerosi lords & anyone who has the control tend to do what they think they can do and are free to do according to circumstances. There's really not that much of a persistent authority that could make them choose a different successor, more so rivals for domination, of which Corlys didn't have much. I think he preferred to go by the Andal customs of succession bec it is tradition, he's traditional while being cunning and flexible when he feels the need, and he didn't want to induce as much trouble for imself, house, and the ruling Targs with naming an unconventional/non-secure candidate in as far as from Visery's example as possible. Like OP states, he really only could have Luke as a possible heir bc he'd be endangering his own prospects and inviitng Laenor being called a cuckold, which reflects badly on him and the house itself. Possibly even *gasp* have the "taint" of homosexuality. He's got a certain rep he wanted to maintain.

So Corlys' will is very much not a passive thing here in determing hos the house does its succession thing. it was by Corlys' will that the house follows the succession "laws"/customs of the Andals at this time of history and the story. Other lords before and after him could act differently if they had room and the will.

Okay so Baela can’t get Driftmark because she is of blood and fire, as she tells Corlys and he accepts this reasoning. “Driftmark must go to salt and sea.” Then how come Corlys was okay with Luke as his heir but Luke wasn’t salt and sea. Corlys also doesn’t want Joffrey as his heir but Joffrey is the same age now as Luke was when Corlys first spoke of him inheriting Driftmark (s1xe7). Corlys tried to kill himself in the following episodes when he went to fight in the Stepstones, so he was okay with leaving Driftmark without an heir of salt and sea. But now he’s not okay all of a sudden.

You do realize that Corlys, as he exists in the show, is just there to prop up other characters, right? Trying to find any deeper meaning behind his actions is a lost cause.

HOTD changed many aspects of the Driftmark succession. In the book, Corlys did not particularly want Luke as his heir. Rhaenyra had to force the issue and she proved that she was willing to have people killed/maimed if they opposed her. Corlys was likely willing to settle for Luke as heir because he was already betrothed to Rhaena. Later, when Luke dies and Joffrey becomes heir, Corlys is already making plans to have Joffrey replaced by his own blood. Joffrey is betrothed to a Manderly girl, and betrothals are not easily broken, so he can’t just be betrothed to Rhaena now. Which is why Corlys proceeds to appoint another heir, who is actually of his blood. F&B never officially referred to Luke as Corlys’ heir (compared to the other heirs to Driftmark), probably because the situation was not so easily accepted by Corlys. Like I’ve said before, Corlys considers being a Velaryon and being his heir as two separate things.

In the show, Corlys accepted Luke as heir from the beginning, even before the betrothal with Rhaena had been made (the show scene is inspired by a book scene between Jace & Viserys). Rhaenyra doesn’t need to use violence to force Corlys’ decision about his heir. The show portrayed Corlys as a person who doesn’t really have a problem with his heir not being of his blood in season one. The events of season one were portrayed in such a way to keep Rhaenyra’s hands clean. But now Corlys’ actions in season two don’t match up with his actions in season one because of the various changes that have been made.

The reason Baela and Rhaena were never considered for Corlys’ heirs in the book is that legally they can never inherit Driftmark while Rhaenyra’s Velaryon sons live. Laenor was the heir to Driftmark. So naturally, his sons will be heirs after him. Then it will be Laena. After her, it will be her daughters. Once Laenor and Laena die, the matter comes down to their children. There is no situation in which either Baela or Rhaena could be named heirs to Driftmark ahead of the boys, especially if one of the boys (Luke) is older (it’s not like the situation with Rhaenyra versus Aegon, where Rhaenyra is older). If the Dragon Twins were named heirs ahead of Rhaenyra’s sons, it would completely expose that the boys are illegitimate (why is Lord Velaryon randomly making his granddaughter heir ahead of his grandson?). Everyone would know and it would create a huge scandal. Laenor would be considered a cuckold publicly. It also makes house Velaryon lose any potential ties to the Iron Throne. King Viserys would either have to start executing Rhaenyra & her sons for high treason or he would start targeting Corlys and his family if they dared to expose Rhaenyra (just look at what happened to Vaemond and his family). Either way, the situation would get ugly. So of course, Corlys has to play along with the ruse. He doesn’t attempt to change the line of succession at that point and is willing to settle for Luke because it at least serves his family’s interests. During the war, Corlys has the upper hand over Rhaenyra, so he can attempt to change the succession accordingly.

There’s a reason why Corlys later passes Addam & Alyn as Laenor’s bastards instead of acknowledging that he is the one who fathered them. There isn’t anything stopping Corlys from saying he’s the father. At the time, Rhaenys is dead so Corlys has nothing to be afraid of. But Corlys’ intention is to change the succession to favour his own blood and the only way to do that is to pass Addam & Alyn off as Laenor’s sons instead.

House Velaryon follows Andal succession. Laenor’s sons (Jace/Luke/Joffrey) come before Laenor’s nieces (Baela/Rhaena). Laenor’s brothers (Addam/Alyn) come very last. By passing Addam & Alyn off as Laenor’s sons, and by virtue of them being older than Joffrey, they are ahead in the line of succession. And when the succession issue has been resolved as Corlys sees fit, there would be no further reason to change it to make either Baela or Rhaena the heir.

It’s easy enough for Corlys to make Addam his heir over Joffrey in the book because of the way the Red Sowing is structured. Corlys took part in planning that with Jace. It was said that whoever claimed a dragon would be honoured by being ennobled. So it’s not particularly a suspicious situation for Corlys to act at this point. Once Addam succeeded in claiming a dragon, Corlys can “reward” him by naming him heir to Driftmark. Rhaenyra needs Corlys on her side, since he’s providing the majority of her army, so she has to accept the situation with Addam (even if it means passing over her own son, Joffrey). Jace supports him in this decision because he was making active efforts to appease Corlys to keep him on their side.

The show complicated matters with all the changes it made in season one, and now season two. If HOTD had portrayed Corlys more similar to his book counterpart (aka reluctant to accept Luke as heir in the beginning), then there wouldn’t be as much confusion about Corlys now being reluctant to accept Joffrey as heir. So long as Laenor’s sons exist, Baela and Rhaena were never going to be considered as heirs to the Driftwood Throne.

[yanderes-galore]

Rhaenyra vs Aegon from (ASOIAF) rivalry concept?? What better way to make the sibling's fight worse than to add a Darling into the mix, am I right?

Whole CIVIL WAR happens and these two are upset they like the same person-

Rhaenyra Concept

Aegon II Concept

❗️Potential Spoilers for Fire & Blood/HOTD Season 2❗️

Yandere! Rhaenyra vs Aegon II

(Team Black vs Team Green)

Pairing: Romantic/Platonic

Possible Trigger Warnings: Gender-Neutral Darling, Obsession, Possessive/Protective behavior, Jealousy, Violence, Kidnapping, Death mention, Manipulation, Imprisonment, Stalking, Dubious companionship/relationship.

There's so many different ways to tackle something like this.

You could really be anyone.

A sibling, a favorite servant, a knight, anyone.

No matter who you are, you're stuck in this realm-wide tug-of-war game.

These two are not only fighting for succession now... but you.

One's the queen of Dragonstone, the other the king of King's Landing.

Honestly... you are in such a bad position no matter where you go or who you are.

You're caught in the middle of a war where both sides have dragons.

I bet that if they both like someone, said person's going to have the entirety of Team Black/Green breathing down their neck.

After all Rhaenyra leads The Blacks, Aegon leads The Greens.

With one order, you could be abducted for either side.

That's probably the scariest part of their rivalry.

You have no power in this situation, they do.

Which means just about anything can happen.

That's also the reason there's just... so much potential for this idea that I'm not even sure if I can cover it all.

Considering what both royals go through, they can both get unhinged.

They have both lost children to each other and they're only going to stop fighting when one of them is dead.

When I think of the obsession for this idea, my mind goes to a sibling or knight.

That way you'd still have somewhat of a connection with both sides.

Perhaps you're a sibling of either Rhaenyra and Aegon that gets caught up in the civil war... only to realize both royals want you for one reason or another.

Or maybe you're a knight (regardless of gender, they had both) who served Viserys.

Then when the war begins, you're torn between Rhaenyra and Aegon, both royals offering you the position of their personal protector (Kingsguard/Queensguard).

You most likely knew them before the civil war happened.

Then it develops into some sort of custody battle for the rivalry.

The alternative is you go with one side willingly and the other takes you hostage.

Then during your time as a hostage, the leader of the side who took you becomes obsessive until your side takes you back.

That's another way you can get them both to like you.

Now, in terms of yandere behavior?

Aegon is naturally hedonistic and would lean more towards romantic tendencies.

He can be both intimidating yet also pathetic with his obsession, often clinging to them and not afraid of executing those who get too close.

You're never far from his sight as his obsession, the king thrives off your care.

As king, Aegon feels he should get what he wants and be smothered in affection, he should always get what he wants.

He's only vulnerable with you... he needs you.

He needs a connection with you.

Rhaenyra is protective and more calculating than her half-brother.

For the most part she can keep her cool and her obsession can go either platonic or romantic.

For the first portion of the war she's calm, yet would fear people are trying to steal or kill her beloved as the war goes on due to trust issues and assassination attempts.

Although they both deal with such a thing.

Rhaenyra's used to the world being against her since she was young.

With her obsession, she feels she can at least trust someone.

She values loyalty between her and her obsession, making them sacrifice everything to dedicate themselves to her in the end.

Both royals utilize psychological and emotional manipulation to try and garner your loyalty.

Aegon lays the charm on thick... Rhaenyra often promises protection for your dedication.

The two have loyal members on their side that would listen to their every order.

I can actually see them both imprisoning their obsession if you're already with a side.

Rhaenyra no doubt sends Daemon to recruit/take you in for The Blacks on top of Caraxes.

Aegon may be less willing if you were already a Green supporter, but if you're with The Blacks he'll order Aemond to hunt you down and imprison you.

You'll get a cozy chambers with both of them, even if it is your prison.

This is another rivalry where I feel one of them is going to die in the end.

Whoever wins this Civil War also gets to have you.

There's no running, after all, how can you?

There's nowhere to go.

You could probably even go to the North and still have someone rat you out.

The two sides brew in tension as they take each other out.

Many common folk whisper rumors about the fact both sides are fighting over one person.

They mutter about your importance, both out of pity and bitterness.

Meanwhile, as you watch the carnage play out and are often tossed from cell to cell, you want nothing to do with any Targaryen.

Get used to dragon back, you're going to be on dragon back a lot.

You know blood is being spilled primarily for control, that this is a battle about succession.

Yet you also fear lives are being lost because you're involved, even if you don't want to be.

When you're with The Greens, Aegon often is seen with an arm around your waist.

In private he wants to trust you, to get affection he couldn't get from even the brothels.

When you're with The Blacks, Rhaenyra keeps you close yet under watch.

She provides hospitality and her affection is welcoming with friendly touches.

She respects you as long as you respect her, similar to Aegon, yet she fears you'll turn on her the longer you're with The Greens.

Aemond and Daemon are definitely doing the dirty work for their king/queen respectively.

They're the ones primarily spilling blood and sending spies to keep an eye on you.

However... Aegon and Rhaenyra wouldn't mind personally dealing with threats, Aegon especially, despite Aemond's protests.

Would things get gorey? Yeah.

Both sides would mount heads on pikes just to get a message across.

Their fight over you and succession would continue until near the end of the war.

By this point, most of their relatives are gone.

Rhaenyra just has her son, and Aegon's nearly alone.

The conclusion of the war is (un)fortunately also the conclusion of your own fate.

With wounded dragons, the two are prepared to end things.

The amount of blood doesn't matter to them.

They don't even care if the blood of their enemy gets on you.

All that matters is you.

The end of the war may mean you're no longer tugged between two royals...

But it certainly does not grant you any sort of freedom either.

[the-loststone]

HotD Team Green Defense

The amount of people who fail to grasp Team Green's perspective is honestly staggering to me. So many people are Team Black, maybe out of some (misplaced) belief that they are being feminists and advocating for female power, or something like that, and choose to ignore the very legitimate worries and motivations of Team Green. Admittedly, the show has gone out of it's way to villainize Team Green as much as possible, while victimizing Team Black, and deviating from the source material for this narrative. (I would tell them to be suspicious when showrunners do that because they did the same thing to Daenerys in GoT and everyone was surprised when she turned around and burned a city down in a rushed ending because the show never properly developed her arc.) Nevertheless, despite their efforts to make Team Green the less appealing side, if I had to compare motivations, Team Black is the more villainous.

So many people dismiss the fact that for Rhaenyra to secure her throne, she would have to kill her siblings. They write it off as paranoia of Alicent, or ambitions of her and Otto, that they are making excuses for Aegon to be made king instead of Rhaenyra. But that's just not true. These are very real likelihoods. Even if Aegon did not seek the throne, or he and his brothers decided to gracefully allow the succession to pass to Rhaenyra, it would never be peaceful. Just look at Rhaenys and how Corlys is still bitter and Viserys has been worried that they may come after him since she has a right to the throne. That's one of the main benefits in having Rhaenyra marry Ser Laenor was to join their claims. Or look at how worried everyone was of Daemon, and how he may seize power after Viserys. The only thing keeping him alive was his brother's love for him, the fact that their house was dwindling, and no one was fighting on his behalf over Viserys. So if there is every another claimant, it would be a great worry that the side in power may be kicked off by another claimant. And Aegon and his brothers are men, and just by virtue of having dicks, they have a better claim to the throne. All laws, precedent, and cultures in Westeros have male heirs before female heirs. The king's word does not change that. And note that the King only made Rhaenyra his heir over his brother. So technically, the King said "all my children first, including my daughter, then my brother." (Something already controversial because if it was accepted before, Rhaenys would be Queen and he would be nothing). But he never again made a statement for the lords after his sons births. He never reinforced Rhaenyra's succession as his heir outside the privacy of their own quarters. Alicent even said, let the lords come and decide, and make vows, and he and Rhaenyra reject it because they worried the Lords would choose Aegon.

Rhaenyra knows, to inherit without rebellions every few years from lords who are unhappy with her and want to supplant her with her brothers, she would have to kill her brothers and make sure there are no people who can contest her right to inherit.

And this is just Rhaenyra's succession. Now add in the fact that she's claiming illegitimate children as her heirs. Very obvious illegitimate children. Even if Rhaenyra managed to successfully inherit with no push back from anyone, and no one wanted to supplant her with her brothers so she didn't have to kill them then... well guess what, she'll have to kill them to secure her son's ascension to the throne. (And if she won't then Daemon certainly would). And then, even if she does kill all the Greens, then there's the issue of her legitimate children vs. her illegitimate children. Even if the kids grew up to love each other, someone may say, well the first three shouldn't inherit, let's put the legitimate ones on the throne. And then you have a completely different succession crisis.

Viserys' actions may seem to the viewers as promoting girl power and feminism, but that's not what's happening. He's being an abusive, neglectful shit. He's deliberately putting the rest of his children's lives in jeopardy, and even the Strong grandchildren he claims to love, because by keeping them in the succession despite their obvious illegitimacy invites people to contest that. And that's not to say he couldn't have taken steps to remedy this. He could have changed the rules so that succession passes to the eldest child, regardless of gender. But he didn't. He could have acknowledged that his grandchildren were illegitimate and forgiven it and legitimized them as Targaryens, but he didn't (conveniently usurping Valeryons - and people may argue that Baela/ Rhaena can still rule being married to Jace/Luke, but that's not the same as being able to rule in your own right, otherwise, why not take the offer for Rhaenyra to marry Aegon).

But since he didn't do any of these things, the only way to stop the Dance would have been for him to make Aegon his successor. Something that everyone would have been relieved by because it would have prevented war. But he didn't. And so, Alicent has to fight to keep her kids alive. The Greens have to push their claim to survive. Whereas, had Rhaenyra graciously backed off her claim, saying that yes, she had 3 brothers, and while they were younger, the laws and precedent are in their corner to inherit, then she would have lived. People wouldn't have fought for her claim if she hadn't pushed it. Nor would they fight for an illegitimate heir.

But some may say... Well Rhaenyra has more supporters. She does. She has the Velaryons and countless other houses backing her. So do the Greens. (the Greens have the wealthiest houses). But once it becomes a fight to throne, it's less about who has the right, and more about who can offer you the most. Notice the Starks and the Baratheons agree to fight because they'll get a wedding out of it (and the Starks because they'll have somewhere to send people during their current famine). The Vale because of the blood ties. The Lannisters because of past insults. Once it's decided to be a fight, it's never about who actually has a right to the throne, it becomes about who can give you the most so you can help them win it.

And this is what it really comes down to. Rhaenyra had a choice. She can back off, and her family can survive. Her brothers can live. Her sons will live. Or she can inherit, and her brothers can die. And she is perfectly willing for her brothers to die. And some may say that that's a very jaded view to take on Rhaenyra and she would never kill her family if she could help it... but it would be out of her hands. It would be necessary to protect her son's right to inherit and to keep away possible rebellions.

And you know, fine, that's okay. She wants to fight for the throne, more power to her. She can go after the throne and kill her brothers. But I don't think it's right that people say that she's the aggrieved party. She's not. She's the aggressor.

And that is why I'm team Green. Because Alicent is right. Just by living and breathing, Aegon and his brothers are threats to Rhaenyra. And this would have happened no matter who Viserys married. Sure people can be upset that Alicent married her bffs dad (something that only happens in the show because in the books, Alicent is 10 years older than Rhaenyra and they weren't close), but that doesn't mean her children should die because Rhaenyra is the preferred child. That doesn't mean the realm should be thrown into war because Alicent 'seduced' a widow. (And I say that with heavy sarcasm because Viserys is a grown ass man.)

And then there's the argument of who's the better house because of blood purity. It's a ridiculous argument and I'm honestly annoyed by people who are Targaryen purists and believe in the whole, dragon supremacy. Hightower is badass house. A lot of people don't realize that they've been around since The Wall and Winterfell were built (Bran the Builder built Hightower, commissioned by the Lord / King of Hightower). They've been around since before Targaryen's rode dragons. So spare me the ridiculous arguments of who's got the most Targaryen blood. If anything, Team Green is more Westerosi, you know, the country they are trying to rule.

In the end, the show will do what it does best, and disappoint you. Either they'll continue pushing this narrative of girl-boss queen and fail to show the complexity of the political situation that result from Rhaenyra's decisions. Or they might stick to the book and have a complex issue actually displayed and show both Aegon and Rhaenyra's descent into madness.

There are more issues one could delve into. Like the fact that Rhaenyra married Daemon. That either Corlys Velaryon has so much unhinged ambition that he's ignored deaths in his house to side with those who have literally murdered his family (cough cough Vaemond and Laenor) (and the whole Laenor excuse in the show makes no sense because no way in hell are Rhaenyra and Daemon risking that he's ever found and that their kids are declared bastards; it is much cleaner for them to do it like they did in the books and kill him) or there will be serious repercussions from the deaths of Velaryons and continued discussion of the succession of Driftmark/High Tide.

But that's the main summary of my thoughts. 👍

If you made it to the end of my rant. Thank you.

[ladydreamfyre]

Just because I'm bored, I sometimes go back to old leaks about season 2 of HOTD. I found the two I used to be most interested in and compared them with each other. I found them both on Reddit. One was released in February 2023 and the other in April of the same year. Here are the conclusions: 

1. Rhaenyra vs Daemon 

The first one says that Rhaenyra and Daemon will argue about actions taken during the war, which ends with Daemon slapping her in the face. 

The second describes Rhaenyra over a table with a map of Westeros. Rhaenys and Daemon are with her. Daemon states that he has told Rhaenyra many times to send assassins to Aegon and Aemond, but she has refused each time. Rhaenys replies that they would be cowards if they attacked Alicent's sons in such a manner. Rhaenyra agrees with her and says that she would rather Aegon and Aemond die in battle than in the Red Keep. Rhaenyra also adds that it would have been better if Helaena had married Jacaerys. At which Daemon insults Helaena with ugly words, Rhaenyra tries to silence him, but Daemon continues by claiming that as long as Aegon's son lives the succession crisis will continue. Rhaenyra responds that killing the child is a low act and that they would be better off taking Jaehaera hostage until the Greens agree that the little princess should marry Joffrey and Aegon gives the throne to Rhaenyra. Rhaenys agrees with this idea. Daemon, on the other hand, is against it and insults Jaehaera. Rhaenyra is angry with Daemon and tells them both to leave, addressing Daemon that they will discuss the matter later. 

Both leaks indicate that Rhaenyra and Daemon will come into conflict. The latest leak also indicates that Daemon will use some form of physical violence against Rhaenyra, again.

The second leak is very informative, and when I remembered it now I realised that a similar scene was shown in the last teaser.

In the picture we see Rhaenyra over the map, Daemon and Rhaenys, but also Ser Erryk. Rhaenys looks like she's looking at someone, so there may be someone else with them. Nevertheless, the discussion described could still happen in this teaser scene between the three. 

2. Aegon and Helaena 

The first leak describes Aegon at a meeting of the Small Council, attended by Otto and Tyland Lannister, among others. The men are discussing among themselves, while Aegon sits quietly with his hands on the table. They are discussing the death of Lucerys. Suddenly a guard appears and announces that the Queen (Helaena) needs urgent attention. Aegon says "If Aemond can kill one puppy, we can kill more", then apologises and leaves. Aegon then goes to see Helaena, who is with Alicent. Helaena faints, reaching out her hand to Aegon, and he catches her. Alicent informs Aegon that Helaena is pregnant. 

The second leak describes a similar situation, only starting with what happened earlier. Helaena is in the chamber along with Alicent, the twins and the maester. The maester informs Alicent that Helaena is pregnant. Helaena smiles and says to Alicent that she wished she had been the first to know and that she would have told Aegon the news. Alicent is nevertheless concerned as she wonders what will happen if a boy is born. Helaena replies that she wouldn't mind another boy, but Aegon would prefer a girl, as Jaehaera is his favourite child. Alicent then tells the guard to summon Aegon to the chambers so she can tell him the news. Then a scene similar to the one in the first leak is described. We see Aegon at a meeting of the Small Council, playing with glass of wine. The council members discuss matters of trade amongst themselves, including Tyland Lannister, but Aegon replies that for all the extra money they should hold a tournament and that he would rather ride his dragon Sunfyre than attend a meeting. Criston Cole then appears and informs Aegon that he is expected in his chambers. Tyland Lannister jokes and says that apparently Queen Helaena needs urgent attention. 

It seems that Maelor had not yet been born at that time. There is no description of him being in the chamber with Helaena and Alicent next to Jaehaerys and Jaehaera. 

We also see Aegon interested in his wife, and we also learn that Jaehaera is his favorite child, so Aegon needs to spend time with his children to be able to determine who he likes more. Although this does not mean that he does not love his son. Maybe he prefers his daughter because she is not the heir to the throne? Aegon didn't have a good relationship with Viserys, maybe that's why he doesn't know how to deal with his son. Or maybe little Jaehaera reminds him of sweet and innocent Helaena? I leave this to everyone's own interpretation. 

Most importantly, the description of Aegon's participation in the Small Council closely matches the scene from the teaser.

We see someone with his hands on the table, playing with a ball. There seems to be a cup next to him? Additionally, this person's outfit matches Aegon's outfit in another scene when he sits on the Iron Throne. 

“Aegon sits quietly with his hands on the table.” 

“We see Aegon at a meeting of the Small Council, playing with a glass of wine.” 

In the photo we see hands on the table and probably a glass of wine next to the person. Which fits the descriptions I mentioned earlier from both leaks. It seems that the things described in both leaks may be accurate to some extent. And that's very interesting. 

3. Blood and Cheese  

Blood and Cheese was only described in the first leak, but it connects to the scene described in the second one, which I wrote about at the beginning. The leak informs us that the entire event will take place in the middle of the night. Helaena will be with her children in some aisle and they will talk. Suddenly Helaena hears voices and starts calling for Aegon and Aemond. When Blood shows up, Helaena grabs her children and starts running. However, Blood stops her and grabs her by the hair, while Chees rips Jaehaerys from her arms. Blood tells Helaena to give them Jaehaera or he will rape them both, but Helaena refuses. Cheese tells Blood to let it go because they have a boy and that's enough. As they leave, Helaena screams and her children cry. Cheese wants to run away with the boy in his arms, but Blood slits little Jaehaerys' throat. Helaena and Jaehaera scream. It also says "Cheese doubts before running." 

Now I will not consider the event itself, why they decided to change it and so on (if this version is true). Let's focus on relating this version to the conversation between Rhaenyra, Rhaenys and Daemon. 

“Daemon continues by claiming that as long as Aegon's son lives the succession crisis will continue. Rhaenyra responds that killing the child is a low act and that they would be better off taking Jaehaera hostage until the Greens agree that the little princess should marry Joffrey and Aegon gives the throne to Rhaenyra. Rhaenys agrees with this idea. Daemon, on the other hand, is against it and insults Jaehaera. Rhaenyra is angry with Daemon and tells them both to leave, addressing Daemon that they will discuss the matter later.” 

“Cheese doubts before running”.  

“Blood tells Helaena to give them Jaehaera or he will rape them both, but Helaena refuses. Cheese tells Blood to let it go because they have a boy and that's enough.” 

What I will describe now is my own theory, which does not necessarily have to be true. Just speculation regarding the information mentioned above. 

It appears that Rhaenyra was involved in renting Blood and Cheese as well as Daemon. However, they both had different goals. It is possible that Rhaenyra actually wanted to kidnap Jaehaera to hold her hostage, and maybe even kidnap Jaehaerys, if possible, to keep the Greens in her grasp. If we assume that Rhaenyra's target was only Jaehaera, it would explain why Blood insisted that Helaena give her to them. However, Cheese, seeing that Helaena was adamant and having Jaehaerys in his arms, quickly calculated that the boy was definitely a better option, so he says that it will be enough. 

It is also said that Cheese wants to run away with the boy he was holding in his arms. So he probably didn't want to hurt him at that moment, or he didn't want to hurt him at all and deliver him to Rhaenyra safe and sound. However, Blood has other plans, he kills the boy and runs away. "Cheese doubts before running." Is this an indication that Cheese was surprised by Blood's action? 

Now, my theory. Blood and Cheese were hired by Rhaenyra and Daemon, but it was Daemon who used Mysaria to find suitable candidates for the job. Rhaenyra just applauded. Kidnappers are kidnappers, if Daemon chose them it means they were good at their craft. Rhaenyra orders them to kidnap Jaehaera. However, Daemon has other plans, which only Blood informs about. He secretly tells Blood to kill Jaehaerys, and maybe even Jaehaera. I wouldn't be surprised if he also ordered him to rape Helaena and her daughter, especially since he had previously insulted them in leaks. So we have Cheese, who was going to follow Rhaenyra's orders, and Blood, who was initiated by Daemon and was going to kill the little prince, and maybe the princess. 

Again, I leave it up to your interpretation. 

An interesting thing is that, according to the leak, Helaena was supposed to be in the aisle during the attack. Where was she going with her children? Was she returning from Alicent? Or maybe she was just going to her, like in the book? In the book, Blood and Cheese attacked Helaena and her children in Alicent's chambers, where they were waiting for them. It's different here. Will Helaena be walking through the halls with her children and then they will be attacked? Or maybe she wasn't coming back from Alicent but from Otto? In the book, Helaena took often the children to Viserys, but this is not the case in the series. Viserys ignored Helaena, but Otto clearly had a good relationship with her. Maybe Helaena took her children to Otto, who told them stories, just like Viserys did in the book? 

There is a scene of Helaena with one of the attackers in the teaser, but you can't see where she is in the background. The image is blurry. 

Maybe Helaena is in some chamber and I'm misinterpreting the word "aisle". You'll have to forgive me, English is not my native language. Despite everything, this word was used in the leak. 

4. Daeron the Daring 

And finally, Ladies and Gentlemen, He. 

In the first leak, we have information that Daeron will make his screen debut in Oldtown with Ormund and Garmund Hightower. Daeron and Ormund plan to travel to King's Landing to return Daeron to his family. Daeron says he can fly there on his dragon to greet Aemond and Vhagar. 

The second leak describes a conversation between Aegon and Aemond, in which Aegon states that he is glad that for once their mother's anger is not directed at him, but at Aemond (referring to what Aemond did to Luke). Aemond is not happy about this comment. Aegon sees this and feels bad for saying it and tries to comfort Aemond by stating that Alicent's anger will eventually pass, as Aemond and Daeron are her favorite sons and Helaena is her favorite child. In turn, Aemond replies that Aegon is their mother's favorite child, to which Aegon does not answer. Aemond changes the topic of the conversation by saying that Daeron will arrive soon and that Alicent will forget what Aemond did. 

In both leaks, we have confirmation of Daeron's existence in the series. Which is very optimistic. I know a lot has been said about Daeron, and most people seem to think that he won't be in the series at all or that he won't appear until season 3. However, let's focus on the optimistic version that Daeron, according to these leaks, will appear in season 2, one way or another. 

Summary 

Both leaks mention a few other things, but I decided to choose the most interesting ones. Interestingly, it is impossible not to notice that both of them overlap to a greater or lesser extent. It is likely that they come from one source, but different people had access to more or less details. Or they subjectively chose what might be the most interesting for us. I returned to them several times over the months until I finally decided to compare and combine them. Long post, but I hope it was entertaining for you. The closer we get to the premiere of season 2, the longer the days get. That's why I'm coming to you with this piece of information. Maybe you have your own thoughts or know more than me. I encourage you to refer to this. 

I'm not saying everything here is true. Maybe it's all a lie. I don't know the exact sources of this information, I'm just quoting what I once found on Reddit. Some of you have probably heard about it. Think of it as fun. Let's hope that season 2 will be better than all the leaks that have appeared in recent months and that they will really surprise us with something good. Hopefully. 

Let’s stay together because... 

The Night Is Dark And Full Of Terrors.

[ellie-r2]

If we had gotten book accurate Gwayne where he's the youngest we could've had Roman and Shiv back

Gwayne being the oldest and a boyfailure

Alicent being the youngest and the favorite.

Welcome back Kendall and Shiv.

[applepie2523]

"[RANT] The problem with Rhaenyra

Show Discussion

It's clear that *House of the Dragon* and *Fire & Blood* are two different beasts with two different goals. HOTD understandably cuts the historical ambiguity and focuses on a more digestible narrative, leaning in hard on the ASOIAF-esque themes of war, monarchy and gender. Doubling down on and expanding the book's diametric framing of Alicent & Rhaenyra is an understandable direction, as is the latter's role as the indisputable protagonist.

This direction of a traditional hero archetype makes sense for her character, just as a traditional tragic backstory does for Alicent's. I do, however, find the application of this and the aforementioned thematic goals to have all but suffocated any interesting facets of Rhaenyra Targaryen's character.

To me, Alicent's writing is muddled and confused; the goal is unclear and the portrayal of the many possible readings is inconsistent.

Conversely, when it comes to Rhaenyra I can see exactly what I believe they are trying to accomplish; it's successful, simple and to the point. I just hate what that thing is.

The Princess and the Queen

Book Rhaenyra is a complicated topic, but for the purposes of this post it's not that complicated. She is fraught with misinformation due to the biased nature of F&B, and so some of the things she does may not have even happened; nonetheless, what appears in the book is inevitably the audience's impression of her character, the information the writers have to work with, and the general situation through which the Alicent vs Rhaenyra feud is filtered. There was a lot to work with, but ultimately the writers had a blank canvas. Rhaenyra's motivations and even actions were up for grabs, and it was up to them to pick and choose, and create altogether, depending on the kind of story they wanted to tell.

I'll get to the point: Rhaenyra starts out strong then falters. As a child (The princess) she is compassionate and fiery, but with clear flaws: headstrong, rude, rebellious, insecure and, most fascinatingly, a rejection of motherhood; as an adult (The queen -- see what I did there?) she is graceful, motherly, patient, merciful, brave, determined, humble, peaceful, perfect and any other virtuous trait you can imagine.

Unfortunately, even Young Rhaenyra's flaws are not really presented as such. Her decision to hire Criston Cole as a Kingsguard is presented and confirmed by the writers as intelligent, her trash-talking Lady Redwyne for criticizing Daemon's war-mongering is presented as a deserved moment of sass, and her publicly mocking multiple men vying for her hand is presented as humorously relatable.

In fact, the only genuine flawed action she exhibits in all her episodes is making a comment diminishing the wants of the smallfolk when hearing they may not accept her as queen -- yet, we get no development on this front, and Rhaenyra no longer thinks this way come adulthood.

The writing elects to sacrifice novelty for likeability, effectively so: She shows compassion to the white hart, because we don't like seeing animals get hurt; she has a night out with her uncle in Flea Bottom, because we think Daemon is cool; she recklessly rides on her dragon to save the day, because it's exactly what we would do if we had a dragon.

This approach continues as Rhaenyra's insecurities are tugged on each episode to evoke pity. Episodes 1-4 I would criticize for depicting the same arc to varying degrees: **She feels undervalued, unwanted and alienated from her father, finally they reconcile near the end of the episode; however, the final moments leave us with an ambiguous feeling of doubt.** This is repeated in all but one episode of Young Rhaenyra, with she and Viserys finally on the same page in Episode 5. I'm not claiming her motivations to be nearly as inconsistent as Alicent's, but it's something to observe nonetheless.

And that's where the nice things I have to say about Rhaenyra sadly end. Because once we get to Episode 6 of S1 and onwards, it becomes increasingly clear what the writers' intentions were for her.

The motherhood problem: A tangent

I feel that the most interesting aspect of Young Rhaenyra by far was her aversion to motherhood and the innate prison she felt it placed upon her. The seeds of her contempt for these feminine confines -- the Arya to Alicent's Sansa -- grow upon her mother's death and hang over her interactions with Viserys, Alicent, Daemon, even Rhaenys.

This is a trait which the second half of the season completely abandons and skips over, instead dealing with an adult Rhaenyra having given birth five times and being pregnant with a sixth. Having spent girlhood in fear of being a woman defined by her womb, Rhaenyra's identity now heavily revolves around being a mother, something that continues into the second season.

It's a jarring change, character development in the most crudest of technicalities; fit for a twitter post but not necessarily for a narrative. Point A to Point B is not a story if there is no bridge in between. Like Alicent, Rhaenyra changes so jarringly off-screen, and her very different actor's performance exaggerates these changes, however unlike Alicent this discrepancy is not giving an on-screen cause.

Rather than exploring how Rhaenyra grapples with these complex feelings, all of her children are perfect and so is she. Instead "motherhood" is once again a way to either summon cheap "aww"-bait or to hand-wave female character dynamics: Rhaenys didn't kill the Greens because of Alicent being a mother, despite killing numerous mothers moments previously; Alicent has a change of heart about Rhaenyra because of her being a mother, despite using her newborn to be vindictive and borderline sadistic.

One of the most egregious examples of the shallow use of Rhaenyra's motherhood is a scene where Luke bemoans, without a shred of insincerity, that he cannot live up to Rhaenyra because she is too "perfect". On a small scale... has any fourteen year-old boy ever called his mom perfect? This is also followed up by one of my least favorite tropes, Rhaenyra perfectly responding to the accusation with "I am anything but perfect", the icing on top of this sickeningly sweet cake. I don't know, this is the only scene I cannot articulate my issue with. It does on a larger scale, however, broadly highlight my main issue with Rhaenyra's characterization: She is too perfect.

I understand Fire & Blood is intentionally written to be biased against Rhaenyra, and perhaps in reality she is a perfect person. But in that case the biased medium surely makes a more engaging story. In transitioning to a medium with one clear narrative, you need complexity that goes beyond miscommunication drama, and you need tension that comes from things other than the protagonist being a perfect human in an imperfect realm.

The protagonist that was promised

There is no scarcity of flaws when it comes to the biased depiction of Rhaenyra in the books. She beheaded Vaemond Velaryon and fed him to her dragon for calling her children bastards and she called for a little boy to be tortured upon him insulting those bastards.

I understand these biased accounts are biased... but is it unreasonable to want Rhaenyra to be responsible for a single questionable act or at least embody some flaws?

The only actions of hers that could be considered morally wrong in the show are so casually swept under the rug that I wonder if they were meant to be wrongs in the first place. She orders the murder of an innocent serving man at the behest of her goal to marry Daemon and intentionally traumatizes Laenor's now-childless parents. Like with Young Rhaenyra's many "flaws", is this truly depicted as a flaw? Does anybody watching this episode treat this with the severity it deserves? I saw more people blaming Alicent for the murder of Harwin and Lyonel Strong. Any moral consideration gets deflated by the reveal that Laenor is alive. The same can be said of Rhaenyra calling for the torture of Aemond. Despite this clear contextual meaning in the book, and the exact words being adapted, this can only be interpreted as a literal "sharp questioning" following Viserys doing just that.

Why not write a situation where Rhaenyra is extremely protective of her children's claims to the point that she is involved in Vaemond's death? Why must Daemon bear all her sins? I understand her feeding a human corpse to a dragon could be viewed as one of many F&B embellishments, but it's actually from a more trustworthy source than stories used to malign Aegon's character, such as Mushroom's account of the child-fighting ring we end up seeing in Episode 9. Why not do something interesting and shocking with Rhaenyra for once?

Not to mention, Alicent not only continues to demand Lucerys' eye in the show, but grabs a knife and makes to do the job herself. Alicent's violence is dialled up while Rhaenyra's is obfuscated.

The nail in the coffin for me is the existence of The Song of Ice and Fire. It's probably one of the most contentious plot points in HOTD, and for good reason, though not nearly enough for its weakening of Rhaenyra's character. She now has prophetic justification and her motivations are infallibly pure. To admit to a sole redeeming aspect of this point and her character, the idea of Rhaenyra resembling and following in Daemon's footsteps as a child, but resembling and following in Viserys' footsteps as an adult is a interesting and realistic concept. It's played well by Emma D'Arcy and creates great conflict between Rhaenyra and Daemon.

However, it also purifies Rhaenyra the same way the motherhood aspect does, undermining ASOIAF themes. Unlike the tragic failure and admonishing of Viserys' prophecy as he took immoral actions for his own dreams, Rhaenyra is completely justified every step of the way, up until and including her decision to go to war. (The prophecy being contradicted by GoT holds as much relevance as the context of "questioned sharply" in this show. What matters is presentation, and we are led to believe Rhaenyra acted perfectly with the information she was given.)

I feel that so many scenes would be more compelling if Rhaenyra simply wanted the throne out of ambition and an expressed confidence in herself. Had she rejected Criston Cole without divine purpose lingering in the background, it would be one of many ambiguous scenes where the audience is left to parse the authenticity of her stated goals: how selfless is she, really? Instead there is no question: the story is saying Rhaenyra on the throne is the ideal outcome for society.

The power paradox: Passive or Pacifist?

The show is consistently forced to undermine Rhaenyra due to reconciling its themes and goals.

How do you write powerful women who still struggle under patriarchy? How do you write realistic female characters not defined by their femaleness?

These are questions the show appears to struggle with, and it often takes the easy way out. The female protagonists, forced to strike the balance of the show's themes, end up having confused and ill-informed motivations, making them rightfully appear incompetent to the men around them. Despite this, the women of the show are the moral voices and the most innocent: Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, Alicent, Helaena and Mysaria. There is a clear dichotomy, and the significant non-flawed male characters I can think of are Jace and Luke, Rhaenyra's sons.

Because the themes demand that Rhaenyra wants peace, but the narrative demands war, it therefore also demands her failure to avoid it. The anti-war and anti-patriarchy message necessitates that Rhaenyra's judgement be superior to the men around her, however. Therefore, we're at an impasse and the plot must bend around Rhaenyra's motivations to fit these jigsaw pieces together.

This peace-seeking goal of Rhaenyra ends not with a bang, but a whimper. The justification is already tenuous -- the information that initially holds her conviction for peace gets reaffirmed, but this time pushes her to war? -- but the worst offender is how underwhelming it is. Despite Luke's death in the S1 finale being the expected and implied beat that spurs the long-anticipated Black Queen, Rhaenyra has one episode to showcase her grief (which is more than can be said for Alicent and Blood & Cheese) and is then promptly unaffected by the death of her son. Instead, she meanders for three more episodes around the idea of peace, before arriving at the Sept and awkwardly deciding it is now time to fight. Her character is not changed from the long string of tragedies -- her father dies, she finds out he was usurped, she has a miscarriage and then finds out Luke was murdered -- and is not even changed when she finally decides to embrace war. Why involve an arc for peace in the first place, if the plot is just going to get impatient? The plot is utterly irrational, evidenced by Rhaenys immediately being on the same page as Rhaenyra, despite being the one to guide her away from war in the first place and not having access to this new information that changed her mind.

Rhaenyra is necessarily both a victim to patriarchal expectations and a victor of them. The show's thematic interpretations demand this. She is consequently framed as the center of all Black decisions, unlike Aegon who is a useless puppet, but she does not actually make decisions, instead passively accepting when they are thrust upon her. I do not think this was intentional:

The choice to finally send dragons after many days of pressure via the councilmen, is voiced by Jace before she can discuss her change of heart; she accepts this. Her idea of going on dragonback herself is shut down; she accepts this. Rhaenys volunteers on account of Meleys' strength; she accepts this (and with wordless confirmation, no less). All three ideas: sending dragons, not going herself and sending Rhaenys, are said by other characters and Rhaenyra simply relents to them, allowing it all to happen. This notably follows a trip to King's Landing that caused her council to be thrown into chaos, a trip which she was also told by another character to take.

"Some have mistaken my caution for weakness" Mistaken? in the scene-hushing words of a hurried Hightower, "There's been no mistake. It's too late, Rhaenyra". Too late indeed, as Rhaenyra's strength continues to be undermined.

While Alicent's flip-flopping on her goals in the Dance was inevitable from the writers painting themselves into a corner, that dissonance does not exist with Rhaenyra as the plot, narrative and characters bend to her will to make her justified. Her goals are perfectly aligned with the narrative's morals. War should be cautioned against until Rhaenyra is ready, and then it's justified.

If the excuse for Alicent's agonizing perpetual passivity is telling the story of the failures of self-imposed submissive feminine roles, what is Rhaenyra's excuse for also being so passive?

The Dany problem: A tangent

This is a theory, but I think the issues stem from a motivation to do "Daenerys done right". In parts I agreed with this idea at first, in parts I didn't. However, although I expected the show to explore the patriarchal themes of the Dance, I wasn't a fan of Rhaenyra herself being given motives of political advocacy.

What makes Rhaenyra as a concept interesting to me is actually her remarkable ordinariness. She is simply a woman claiming her birthright, just as the men who came before her did, only her existence is unfairly scrutinized.

The problem is Show Rhaenyra is unrealistically virtuous. I understand the motivation to make her patient and graceful in the face of a reputation littered with misogynistic nicknames such as "The bitch/whore of Dragonstone". But I don't want her to be Daenerys, to want to free the world from slavery or patriarchy. I like that Rhaenyra is simply fighting for the throne because she's the heir, with no noble goals.

It's true: Rhaenyra in F&B could, for all we know, have some Cersei-esque lamentations on the male privilege she misses out on, but like Cersei I feel that these should be confined to Rhaenyra's own selfish interests and not trying to meaningfully fight the patriarchy. If GRRM wanted to write a story where she is advocating for egalitarianism and not simply claiming her birthright, then Rhaenyra would have likely given birth to daughters to make the stakes for her victory higher. Instead they are sons, and Rhaenyra is fighting for her own interests -- the patriarchy is simply in the way.

This legacy of Daenerys nonetheless hangs over Rhaenyra, much like Game of Thrones understandably hangs over House of the Dragon. Indeed, they are both dragonriding women aiming to be the first queen whose claim to the throne resides in succeeding their father. But I think the writers are trying too hide to fill the void left by GoT's disappointing conclusion and projecting this heroic Targaryen "girlboss" energy onto a character that would truly thrive without it.

She witnesses cosmic signs of her importance, such as the white hart in S1. defying the idea of Aegon as a king even so early on. Syrax is also made to be the mother of Dany's dragons, instead of Dreamfyre. In case it wasn't obvious enough.

Missing the mark: Misogyny and Monarchy

The sexism of the Dance is because Rhaenyra, as a woman, is existing in a way that puts her at odds with a patriarchal society. Her character is picked apart more than if she were a man: a merciful queen is weak and soft; a merciless queen is hysterical and insane. The soul-eating nature of this double standard and the lose-lose situation it puts women under is the type of sexism GRRM is commenting on. He understands this nuance. It seems that the showrunners do not.

Rhaenyra in the show is instead the most objectively deserving of the throne. Her lack of flaws and her persistent positive traits are one thing, but being divinely justified thanks to the prophecy and intentionally wanting to unite the realm is what demonstrates the show writers were unable to meld critiques of patriarchy and monarchy in the same story.

The idea that she would make a good ruler if only the men would give her a shot completely misses the point that under monarchy there is no "good ruler". This is a bad feudal system that goes against the will of the people and prioritizes rich families holding onto power so they can continue to be rich.

Rhaenyra does not need to be a vastly superior ruler to communicate this; the point is that women should actually get to be mediocre or even bad rulers (just as men can be) without their leadership being tied to their womanhood. Neither Aegon nor Rhaenyra should be exceptionally bad or exceptionally good, but average rulers who get pushed into doing horrible things because of the succession crisis that tears the realm apart.

And this is what makes the Dance compelling to me. It's two spoiled brats clawing for power and destroying their family because of it.

The show meanwhile beats us over the head, episode by episode, with how screwed the realm would be if Aegon were king, and how much of a utopian paradise we would get if Rhaenyra were queen. In all likelihood they would both probably listen to their counsels and maybe make a bad decision here or there, like most kings. The stakes are the war itself, not who ends up on it, which would be negligible. The show has made an error in essentially justifying this wry from Rhaenyra's perspective by in every moment instilling it into the audience that it will all be worth it if Rhaenyra one day rules.

Monarchy is thematically bad in ASOIAF and F&B. If the two claimants are bad rulers, it's not because they are bad people unfit to be monarchs, it's because there are no good rulers under monarchies. The bigger picture is that nepo baby dictators, including Rhaenyra, are not a good thing.

It should be a bloody fight between two vindictive privileged children of the king who feel they are entitled to the throne no matter who it harms, rather than a one-sided tale about our hero being punished again and again for trying to save the world.

I think in navigating strong female characters, as long as we see Rhaenyra struggling with these gendered issues, then it really only comes down to one thing: What makes for a more interesting character? To flawlessly push for the right decision, or to have surprising traits that make us think about and question her character?

This is why, ultimately, I am disappointed in Rhaenyra Targaryen's character. Thank you for reading."

[alvsanne]

"You're smart, you're good, but you're not a killer. You have to be a killer."

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON | S02E07 SUCCESSION | S02E10

[queenvhagar]

My perhaps controversial take on the HOTD characters, the GOT characters the writers are trying to mold them into, and the GOT characters they actually most resemble in the books (in my opinion - feel free to disagree).

Disclaimer: these are entirely disconnected series with unique characters, so it's impossible to do what the writers of HOTD seemed to be trying to do in season 1 i.e. mold the characters from Fire and Blood to fit the characters of GOT to try to recreate the success of the early seasons. Given this, I tried to choose one single character analogue from GOT that each HOTD/FB character is most like, but oftentimes the reality is that if any single character from Fire and Blood resembles a Game of Thrones character it is likely that they are a combination of more than one. All of this said, here is who I think the writers are trying to fit certain HOTD characters into vs the character they are actually most like (according to Fire and Blood):

Rhaenyra Targaryen: obviously the show wants her to be the new and improved Daenerys, a protagonist everyone can root for who wants to revolutionize the existing order. In reality, Rhaenyra is most like Cersei: a woman who seeks to use her three bastards to usurp thrones and gain even more power than she already has, all while committing incest with a family member and using her power to punish and silence her enemies. She uses the existing system to raise herself up and keep others below her. She does reach her goal of ultimate power but ultimately she is unable to hold it. In pursuit of holding onto power or gaining more of it, she watches as her children die early deaths. The smallfolk despise her for her methods of ruling. Eventually, she will cause her own downfall and die before her time.

Alicent Hightower: the show wants her to be Cersei, a mean-spirited, jealous woman protecting her problematic children and using her status as queen to put others in their place (they even used Cersei scenes as audition material for the role). In reality, I see Alicent as most like Catelyn - a flawed woman, mother to a king, seeking to further the rights of her son in the hopes of protecting her family from those who would harm them, guided by her own sense of justice, honor, and understanding of the laws of the land (and of course, hyper aware of the bastards in the room). All she wants is her and her children's safety, and she is willing to go to war for it. In the end, however, she watches as every last child is taken from her before she herself dies alone.

Viserys I Targaryen: the show wants us to see him as the ultimate father who loves his child unconditionally and always supports her, and that his view of right and wrong should be what guides the world. In reality, he is most like Robert Baratheon: a weak king unsuitable for rule whose mistakes and complacency lead to civil war after his death. His preoccupation with past events and people, and his role in a former love's demise, leads him to neglect his current wife and their children and make decisions that create long-term issues for his family and the realm.

Criston Cole: as soon as Criston turns away from Rhaenyra, the show wants you to view him as a Meryn Trant type of Kingsguard - a man unconcerned with honor and violently anti-women, more than willing to carry out terrible acts commanded of him. In reality, Criston is like more like Jaime: he seeks to make a name for himself as a knight, guided by his own sense of honor and justice, though he is judged by others as lacking such principles. His devotion to his position on the Kingsguard and his love for the royal family motivates him. Occasionally his self-confidence and delight in goading his enemies can make him appear callous and proud. Although he is not officially the royal children's "father," he has guided and protected them and their mother from early on in the absence of their official father.

Daemon Targaryen: the show wants you to both love and hate Daemon. It seems he should fill many roles that Jaime did - a sword fighter whose swagger and danger mix together, whose dishonorable acts follow him through the world. He acts primarily out of love or his pursuit of it, whether for his brother or his lover and her children. The viewer is supposed to see that deep down he is a good guy, no matter how many characters say that he's not. In reality, I see Daemon as a more capable Viserys III: a man adamant in his family's racial superiority, who believes he and his loved ones should have access to unchecked power because they're better than everyone else. A man who enjoys exercising his power over others and demanding obedience out of fear of his wrath. A man who uses his younger family member to further his own interests without much thought to her own wishes or agency and willing to hurt her if she doesn't act the way he wants her to.

Otto Hightower: the show wants you to view Otto as a new Littlefinger, someone sly about his intentions who uses spies, information, and unsavory methods to take advantage of the ruling family and further his own interests and increase his own power. I see him instead as more similar to Tywin: a Hand of the King seeking to put his family close to the throne in pursuit of legacy and advancing his family's station, a man who arranged for his daughter to marry the king so his blood would sit the Iron Throne and bring his family power for generations, a man acutely aware of the political world and how the game is played and willing to get his hands dirty to play it.

The Strong boys: the show wants you to root for Rhaenyra's perfect, good natured and pure intentioned sons as if they were the Stark boys (mixed with Jon Snow). Raised in a good family, these boys know right from wrong and love each other. Yet some people unfairly think less of them for their birth. In reality, the Strong boys are closest to Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. Bastards set to inherit positions they have no claim to, they are coddled by their mother and protected from any consequences to their actions. When one attacks another child, their mother demands that the other child's family is punished for their actions (and doesn't even reprimand the child for his role in the conflict). The result is the child has no remorse for the harm done, and the other child's family festers resentment against the child. Some people uncover the truth of their birth and object to their place in the line of succession, and these people are killed for speaking the truth. Eventually, a war is fought to keep them and their mother away from the throne, resulting in all of them being killed.

Aegon II Targaryen: the show wants you to see him as Joffrey 2.0. A man interested in viewing sadistic acts for his own pleasure, who abuses women for his own enjoyment, and who is unfit to rule. In reality I see Aegon as closest to Robb: a first born son reluctant to rule as king once his father dies but who rises to the occasion to try to keep his remaining family safe. A king willing to fight his battles alongside his men, no matter the risk it might pose to him. A king who tries his best to rule but makes mistakes along the way that cost him dearly. In the end, he watches as he loses everything, and he dies young.

[horizon-verizon]

There’s a tendency among the fans to treat succession as a set of ironclad rules, at least, whatever version of succession they subcribe to. But the reality is that succession is largely a matter of will to power. Any claim can be justified with right of conquest/might makes right. Various characters might have claims that make it easier for them to persuade others to support their grab for power, but they all understand on some level that the rules aren't real. Words are wind, as they like to say. To quote Petyr Baelish, it’s treason “only if we lose.”

Right of conquest only works if you win. The problem with a claim based solely on this is obvious (hence why even Robert/Jon Arryn came up with a thin pretext of Robert’s Targaryen blood in addition to this): there’s no inherent normative reason anyone else shouldn’t do it or challenge your claim immediately by trying to kill/overthrew you. The Targaryens got away with this for a while because no one else could do it both due to dragons and other barriers, long enough for their system to be fixed. (In their case, they had an advantage since the entire concept of the united Seven Kingdoms was their creation).

For instance, Catherine the Great, an impoverished Prussian princess, had come to Russia in the first place to be empress consort and mother to the next heir. She had no legal claim to the throne. Aided by her lover Grigory Orlov and his powerful family, she staged a coup just six months after her husband, Peter III, took the throne. The bloodless shift in power was so easily accomplished that Frederick the Great of Prussia later observed, “[Peter] allowed himself to be dethroned like a child being sent to bed.” Catherine not only overthrew her husband but usurped the throne from her son, ruling for 34 years as empress in her own right even though legally, she could only be a regent until her son came of age. Yet you’d be hard pressed to find many people calling her a “usurper” because Catherine knew how to get and maintain power, and she kept the most powerful people in her empire in check. She surrounded her son with spies in order to prevent him from staging a coup and taking the throne that was rightfully his. She also manipulated influential men to keep them from allying with Paul (who didn’t inherited his mother’s political acumen).

This is in response to this recent ask about usurpation and "legitimacy".

And yes, even GRRM says that in both ASoIaF and real life medieval EU, these "laws" could be distorted or ignored by lords themselves when they had the means and will to do so in So Spake Martin:

[aifsaath]

I am continuously perplexed at how a show as objectively bad and problematic as hotd keeps inspiring outstanding fanfics like yours and @gwenllian-in-the-abbey’s. Truly it’s a mystery to me, especially considering that the books covering the dance are supposed to be quite mediocre as well from what I’ve perceived. Just so you know,with that trailer out now I’m gonna completely blend out the events of the show and consider our fathers clad in red canon

@gwenllian-in-the-abbey AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, I think George's gonna order a hit on us:D

I'm glad you like our slightly destructive approach to teh canon. I'm mostly fueled by spite and my dislike for George's and HBO's complete disregard for the historical context of the stuff they draw their inspiration from (you can't do the Matilda vs Stephen showdown and expect the same sense of injustice, when your main conflict is about Viserys' imbecilic approach to rules, Rhaenyra's weak-ass claim and papa/dragons being her go-to solution to all her problems, Daemon being a chaos gremlin, Corlys' malignant ambition and the Hightowers being the only ones who actually care about the rule of law.)

A lesbian romance doesn't automatically turn a story into a feminist manifesto, nor does a girlboss who's treated by the narrative as the second coming of Christ. Context matters and it's a mistake to view the Dance through the lens of modern ideals about egalitarianism.

GRRM's hubris when it comes to "Aragorn's tax policies" is just another thing that enrages me and Gwenllian, because the man completely misunderstands the medieval legal codes. Just because they were complex that doesn't mean they were fucking contradictory on their own; no one wanted civil wars breaking out each time a monarch died.

Problems happened when two countries with generational beefs worked on two different principles of succession, ie. England (male-preference primogeniture) vs France (male-only primogeniture), or if there was some dynastic fuckery that completely messed up the clear-cut succession lines with usurpations and cousin marriages (Yorks vs Lancasters).

Had Richard II (the son of the Black Prince) died peacefully without issue, the succession would have followed through the line of the Duke of Clarence, with Edmund the Earl of March eventually becoming the king (and he was Richard's heir, btw).

But that's not what happened. The son of John of Gaunt usurped the throne and it was then passed down through his line, because he was the crowned king. Now, you can argue whether or not he had any right to do the usurpation in the first place and whether or not he was the legitimate king and you bet people back then argued about that too. This ambiguity is how you create a proper narrative about actually conflicting claims. The only thing propping up Rhaenyra against her brother is the fact that Viserys is a moron.

How the fuck can I take F&B seriously and without the Dead Sea's worth of salt, when it pretty much blows Jaehaerys' posthumous dick about his wisdom when he "let" the council of 101 decide the succession (while politely ignoring the fact that Jaehaerys' own claim is legit only in the cases of either full salic or semi-salic succession, ie male-only), while never once it calls out Viserys out on his extremely dangerous decision. He gets to die venerated as the peaceful grandpa and all the blame for his incompetence is piled on Aegon II and Alicent.

Let's go through the possible succession systems, shall we?

If we follow male-preference primogeniture, the legitimate line of kings ends with Aerea because she was the eldest child of Aegon the Uncrowned, Maegor's eldest nephew. Only after she and her sister die without issue, Jaehaerys can become the king. Jaehaerys' canon ascension works only because Rhaena gave up her daughters' claims. The next in line would be Aemon and after him Rhaenys. But that's not what happened.

If we follow the salic law (male only), the legitimate line of the kings goes Aegon I -> Aenys I -> Aegon Uncrowned -> Jaehaerys I -> Viserys I -> Aegon II. This is probably what Jaehaerys wanted to ensure, since he challenged Maegor's kingship in the first place.

If a crowned king can choose his heir, then Jaehaerys was never a legitimate king and Aerea was the true queen, because Maegor, who had won his crown in the trial by combat, chose her as his heir.

What about the principle of seniority? Cognatic seniority where men and women have equal claims is out of the question since Aegon I was the crowned king, not Visenya. Male-only seniority would go Aegon I -> Aenys I -> Maegor I (uncontested!) -> Aegon Crowned This Time -> Viserys the Not Tortured to Death -> Jaehaerys I -> Aemon (only if his uncle Viserys has no issue) -> Baelon -> Vaegon -> Viserys I -> Daemon (EW).

Notice the distinct lack of Rhaenyra.

Team Black keeps mentioning the widow's law, but that's a bulk of nonsense. I suppose the misunderstanding originates from a (willful) misinterpretation of this passage. The book says:

Now, I highly doubt Jaehaerys intended for the law to mean that a daughter from the first marriage should come before the sons from the second. The wording is a bit unlucky, but I suppose the intention was to establish the legal position of the second wife and her children as united with the position of her step-children - she has the same duties towards them as if they were own, and the same goes the other way. Which would make sense. Because otherwise, no one would be desperate enough to marry a widower with daughters. Since we know that title and land ownerships have remained in the same families without changing hands once or twice since the implementation of the law, I really doubt the team black's literal interpretation of the passage was the one intended. Ffs, Viserys was pushed to marry again because he had only one daughter, meaning, this law wasn't viewed the way the Team Black wishes for. And I'm not even delving into the fact that this would be a female inheritance hack penned by Jaehaerys, if that was the case. Talk about ooc.

So, yeah, we're taking Gyldayne's interpretation of the past with so much salt our hearts are gonna fail.

[tessarionbestgirl]

I honestly don’t think Condal and Hess expected the backlash 2x08 brought, sure they knew some people will be pissed but I can totally see them believing Driftmark was going to be their Red Wedding. A shocking twist that had the audience at the edge of their seat, sealing HotD’s place in the HBO hall of fame alongside greats such as The Sopranos and The Wire.

In the lead up to Season 2 they kept talking about how there’s “still hope” for Rhaenicent, Emma was doing photoshoots with Olivia instead of Matt, Sara declared HotD was all about Rhaenyra and Alicent finding their way back to each other, Ryan insisted the sept scene in 2x03 was written because it’s what the fans wanted etc.

They really thought they ate with 2x08, instead it blew up in their face. It’s the show’s worst rated episode, George didn’t hold back with his full on rant against them, Olivia even went off script by saying she was portraying Alicent to be disgusted with Rhaenyra’s demands rather.

I don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors but HBO isn’t stupid, they can’t let idiot writers destroy their launchpad for the asoiaf universe after D&D already ruined Game of Thrones. I can buy the rumour higher ups told C&H to either fix this mess or they’re fired.

Thus comes Emma’s interview where they categorically deny the existence of canon!Rhaenicent on behalf of the show itself. Emma has never outright rejected Rhaenicent so the fact they did tells me this has less to do with their own personal opinion and more HBO cleaning house.

The idea of making two women the center of conspiracy political medieval show isn't bad at all in concept. And there were several cases in reality that was so. Like for I think, a century the succession where plots drawn up by the sultanas who wanted their children in power or reigned through them. I have so many problems with Magnificent century, but, at least sort understand and execute this better than House of the Dragon.

They promoted like a lot this a conflict between Rhaenyra Vs Alicent. They made that stupid queerbaiting photoshoot as well and that real-size, chess game, implying those women are against each other . The problem is they also want to make they victims of patriarch, and only that.

You can make them victims of the patriarchy as well become perpetuators and use this system to their advantage. The best example of this is the movie Blink twice, I will not go in details about the plot, but in it core, at end, it shows a dark reality when you are victim of organization that you can't fight against. So what you should do?

But Sara neither Ryan wanted to go to that because they are stupid.

So in reality what we got is Alicent that does nothing to the greens and betrayal them for nothing or Rhaenyra that acts stupidity for half of the season and then goes Machiavelli for the the last half of the season but she never was directly in conflict with Alicent.

If at least Alicent was the one pulling Aegon's strings, this narrative could some what work. But it was not so. So at end her turn is neither compelling plot twist or make sense. You have to ignore a lot of who Alicent is, and the story that have been told, and what she gone though and so abandoned logic all around to say Rhaenyra is the most important person to Alicent, the story is about them.

And you right they didn't saw that coming because they so sure the twitter Rh@enicest echo chamber represents the majority and they would only be frustrated by the lack of action and not Alicent character assassination.

What this season should have been it was green Vs black. The chess game promotion should have been everyone on the cast. They should have showed Otto dealing in with conflict in the Reach, they should have show more of actual deaths in Riverlands. Jace should have stayed in the North half of season.

But they stupidly thought that Rh@icest is enough. As if S1 was carried by then and not Matt and Paddy.

Like even if they are the center or the main matter of the story, it should never be the only focus of the story. Sure asoaif is about Dany and her dragons / the threat beyond the wall with the other. But it never the only thing going on for it. Sure the Starks are the heart of Game of Thrones, but it was never the only characters being show development.

House of the Dragon because of rhaenicest is called a fanfic, and S2 is mostly praised because of Aegon, Aemond, Jace and Daemon ( this one of more half-half). And the biggest complain this on what they done to Alicent and Rhaenyra this season. So yeah I don't know how much true is to the rumours going on BTS, even though, I would say that Martin post and the general bad reaction may got some investors insecure what may or may not made some of high ups put thejr feet down with Hess and Ryan.

Only time will tell. But there is a certain attempt to control the fans' nerves. That definitely exists.

[yanderes-galore]

HOTD

Corlys vs Viserys

Platonic

Concept (HCs)

This is a good pic due to their past with one another.... So here's your two dads/friends. Up to you. I wasn't entirely sure where to start so the pacing is a bit rocky...? You're a Targaryen. Hope it came out okay :(

Yandere! Platonic! Corlys Velaryon vs Viserys I Targaryen

Pairing: Platonic - Rivalry -> Sharing

Possible Trigger Warnings: Gender-Neutral Darling, Obsession, Overprotective behavior, Manipulation, Rhaenys is an enabler, Rivalry, Westeros politics, Dubious companionship.

Having these two so fond of you is dangerous.

The Targaryens and Velaryons are two of the most powerful families in Westeros at the time Viserys and Corlys are around.

Corlys is one of the best seafarers, so the sea isn't safe for you.

In terms of Viserys, you're lucky he lost Balerion long ago, so he has no dragon to track you down.

You're close to both families due to political ties often making you meet them.

Maybe you're close to the Targaryen family in some way (Sibling or Child?).

This makes you close to Viserys, the amiable, kind, and diplomatic king.

You may meet Corlys through Rhaenys, the two families having to meet at times.

So, while you visit Rhaenys (Whom you are also close with), you share friendly chat with Corlys, her husband.

Corlys is different from Viserys, shrewd yet loyal and not minding violence.

This is how you become close to the two.

It would most likely be through blood and political ties.

Your close bond makes you experience the sea with Corlys and more diplomatic values with Viserys.

I imagine a rivalry would start due to the tension between the two.

Due to decisions made by the Targaryen family, Corlys has some spite.

Which only increases when you spend more time with the Targaryens than the Velaryons.

Viserys either doesn't pick up on it or ignores such tension.

He's too caught up in being around you, often asking for an opinion or watching over you.

The good news about you being a Targaryen is you have a dragon.

A dragon you often like to use to visit Rhaenys and Corlys, sometimes even against the word of Viserys.

Despite the tension between the two, they still care about you enough to not make too much of a fuss about it.

If anything your bond between them heals the tension a little bit since you travel between the two families so often for both diplomatic and personal matters.

Be you a child or sibling of Viserys, you often get along with the rest of your family.

Rhaenyra and you are often around and helping one another, much to Viserys's pleasure.

When you're with Corlys and Rhaenys you help them take care of Laena and Laenor.

Honestly, if anything you're sort of mending the two families in a way.

Until events make you unable to continue such visits.

With the death of Aemma, your mother/sister-in-law, and the issue of succession coming up once again... you spent less time with the Velaryons.

You were too focused on keeping the head of the Targaryen family in a good head space.

Viserys is naturally attached to you due to this while Corlys grows impatient with Rhaenys.

You probably even come up in conversation between Corlys and Daemon.

Daemon may even find the tension between his brother and Corlys amusing.

Do you even know how much you affect these two families?

Viserys probably doesn't let you participate in the three year long war Corlys and Daemon are battling in.

Your true place is in King's Landing to aid him, not flying a dragon in the Stepstones with his exiled brother and Corlys.

It's clear Viserys wants to keep you with him for comfort and to teach you to be peaceful.

He wants you fierce, yes, but you're better off beside him your birth place.

If you're a sibling, you're most likely his younger sibling.

If you're his kid, you're probably older than Rhaenyra but not in line for succession (Married off to another, perhaps?).

Viserys has such an attachment to you he ends up dictating what you do even when he doesn't mean it.

When he marries Alicent, he wants you to help with his other children.

All while Corlys is sending you letters or having Rhaenys visit you on Meleys to check on you.

In the same way that Corlys hates you being in King's Landing so often, Viserys hates you being in Driftmark for too long.

Corlys loves it when you visit to make chat

You're much younger than him due to the age difference of him and Viserys, yet he acts like a mentor of sorts.

He may not be the fondest of Viserys's decisions, but he enjoys you.

Viserys knows he shouldn't worry when Corlys has you... although that changes once he learns Corlys took you as backup for some sort of battle or quietly took you on a trip on the seas.

Their fights are usually verbal and diplomatic as Viserys is a very peaceful king.

When you're not around and they meet, you're brought up eventually...

Then bickering ensues as a maid informs you that the two have come to another disagreement.

The good thing is their rivalry is usually dealt through politics most of the time.

Both of them want to be the favorite and want the other to stop bringing it up.

Naturally you should stay with Viserys as your Targaryen.

Yet your power is useful in Driftmark due to your dragon.

Their views are conflicting which often brings them to fight again.

Corlys stays loyal to the king only because he's king after this.

In return he wants you to keep visiting Driftmark, even if Viserys hates the idea.

A rivalry between the two would only cause s larger rift between the two families.

Even the marriage between Rhaenyra and Laenor doesn't help.

The two would most likely share, reluctantly deep down inside.

Viserys knows he needs to play nice and solve this like a diplomat.

Corlys himself knows that, meaning their rivalry would go dormant once they agree to share you between the houses.

Luckily, this conflict will not lead to war...

But the king may lose his sea fleet and maybe even you if there's anymore disagreements.