#honestly I was in the fandom camp of destiel not being canon

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

(non spn watcher here) when did destial become a canon love story with writer intent? like was there more destiel-ness in the season leading up to the nov 5th confession?

Okay *cracks knuckles*.

First and foremost, I'm gonna tell you about my SPN history. I started watching SPN and got caught up with the show while s10 was airing and was watching live until the end of s12. I gave up specifically because Castiel's s11 plot proved to be just on the side of too miserable for me, and s12 didn't really make it any better (Cas dies at the end of that season). During this time, and until Nov 5th 2020, I was solidly on camp "Dean and Cas are never going to be canon just because of what SPN is fundamentally as a show, and even if they did, I cannot imagine a situation where it would be a good thing for Cas given SPN's track record on how they treat the angel."

When Nov 5th happened I was sucked back into the show. In preparation for the finale I watched all of s13-15 in the two weeks between the confession episode and the finale. Again, my perspective going into this endeavour was still very doubtful and pessimistic, specifically on the Dean side of the equation.

The beginning of s13 was a bit of a shock to me, honestly. It starts with what the fandom calls 'The Widower's Arc'. I think this was the arc that most solidly cements the feelings from Dean's side. It was so vehement in pointing out that Dean feels for Cas in a way so distinguished from how Sam does. In the very first episode of the season (so the first episode I watched after going back into SPN), Dean quietly wraps Cas' body with a curtain all by himself in a sunlit room. And I go Oh. Okay.

This vibe does wane after Cas comes back and regular SPN hijinks ensues. S14 actually ends with Dean and Cas fighting and Dean doing his usual Dean-isms. 15.03 is when that fight culminates: they break up and spend a couple episodes apart from each other.

15.09 The Trap features Dean and Cas in purgatory, and this was Truly An Episode. They bicker through-out the entire thing and are pretty pissed at one another, but then Cas gets taken, and Dean desperately prays to him, confesses his anger issues, forgives Cas and asks for forgiveness back. Later, they reunite, and Cas acknowledges that he heard everything Dean said.

This episode is so interesting to me because it culminates the Dean and Cas fight-separation-reconciliation plot of s15, and in doing so confirms it to be as important as it is. I cannot point enough that the plot reasons for the stuff happening in 15.09 is so pointless. They go to purgatory for a fetch quest for an item that can be interchangeable with literally anything else, specifically to put Dean and Cas back in purgatory (a meaningful place for them), have them be separated, and have the prayer happen. The whole point of the Dean and Cas portion of the episode is to do character work. We don't even see the scene where Cas finally gets the thing they're here to acquire in the first place. That's literally not the point. The point is Cas and Dean's story. S15 is the last season of a show with so many big things to wrap up, and they make it a point to have Dean and Cas go through a half-season arc that DOES occupy so much of the season and brings a new openness, vulnerability, and room for development into their relationship.

So yeah, before 15.18 there WAS very visible marks of the fact that Something was gonna happen. Interestingly enough all those marks were pretty dean-centric. I would say s4-10 destiel is the audience being inundated that Cas loves Dean. S11-15, ESPECIALLY 13-15 is so very much making it known that Dean loves Cas too.

On a related note, on Nov 21, 2020, a post is made here on tumblr claiming that around Dec 2016 (S12 was airing at this point), Warner Bros. conducted a market research about Supernatural, and from this person's experience, specifically about Dean and Cas and Dean's sexuality (link to a post that confirms the information in the post to be true). This market research was during the time leading up to s13, which I think does mark a big change in how the love between Dean and Cas started being framed by the show as something Dean both feels and is also aware of.

So, to answer your questions.

Was there more destiel-ness in the season leading up to the nov 5th confession? Yes.

When did destiel become a canon love story with writer intent? It became a canon love story by S15, but the writer intent to make it canon goes way back to s13 but probably even s12.

- Grey :))

[trashbatistrash]

,

[go-diane-winchester]

Are people not allowed to ship destiel?

Thank you​ for the very pertinent question.  I, like most sensible slash fans, have absolutely no problem with any ship.  I don't have issues with tinhatting.  When it comes to shipping, I am very tolerant.  As long as you don't hurt people, go ahead and have your fantasy.  Destiel is not a problem.  The militant shippers, or hellers, most definitely are.  Some people I know, used to ship Destiel, before getting fed up and moving on.  We have made a distinction between destiel shipper and destiheller before, until we were blue in the face, but we have to keep repeating this because hellers don't circulate the truth, just their headcanons.  I even did posts about it, but the hellers don't want to acknowledge that.  I have come across destiel shippers.  They are nice people.  They ship their ship and ask for nothing in return, because they acknowledge what slash fiction is and they make no demands of any kind.  Hellers are a beast of a different breed, altogether.  A heller is someone who wants to control fandom's thoughts.  Nobody is allowed to think contrary to what a heller thinks.  And if you do, then you deserve to kill yourself.  I, myself, was recently told to put my head in an oven. 

So what kind of person is a heller?

A heller cannot understand that subtexts is opinion-based, and that not everyone going to see what you see and interpret it the way you interpret it.  For example, the Dr Sexy scene.  Jensen, and most fans, interpreted the scene as Dean was fanboying over meeting his on screen idol.  The hellers insist, even despite Jensen saying otherwise, that Dean was ''crushing'' on Dr Sexy.  The Destiel camp is very headcanon and meta heavy.  Instead of just writing stories, indulging in fanart etc, they are constantly writing headcanon and meta.  Other hellers, just reading the headcanon and meta, just accept it with question.  No debate is held over the analysis.  Why is that?  They don't question meta writers because then they will have to question their ship and they cant question their ship because they want Destiel to be canon.  They can't have it any other way.  If an individual uses Destiel and canon in the same conversation, immediately I can tell this is a heller.  A normal shipper doesn't want to change the entire show to suit her kinks.  And she recognizes that its a kink, a fetish and nothing more.  Hellers don't do that.  They pretend that they are crusading for LGBT representation when they ask for canon.  And why do I have a problem with it?  Its shouldn't be my business what hellers blindly believe or don't believe in the heller section of the fandom, should it?  Unfortunately, it is.  Its everyone's problem, because the hellers believe the meta writers and then they ask questions based on the meta at cons.  They harass J2 over the meta.  The Dr Sexy question is meta-based.  So is the Cas-Collette parallel question.  The Js will be put in an uncomfortable position based on how thinly veiled the question is because they will have to answer honestly.  The Dr Sexy question was a thinly veiled question.  They answered honestly and got bashed on Twitter for it.  The parallel question flew right over Jensen's heads.  Myths and archetypes are something Jared is fascinated by, so Jensen told Jared to answer the question.  And Jared answered the question positively from a literary standpoint.  I guarantee that if he had asked the fan to elaborate on the parallel, his answer would have been vastly different.  They use that as proof that SPN is queer baiting them.   

They cannot differentiate between SPN fandom and Destiel fandom.  When a heller speaks about Destiel, especially when harassing SPN execs on SM, they speak for the rest of fandom.  They say that ''the fans demand a spin-off'' and ''the fans deserve Destiel to be canon''.  And if someone points out to them that not all the fans agree with that statement, they are called a ''fake fan''.  If you don't care much for Cas, you are fake fan.  If you don't like Misha, you are a fake fan.  If you are not ''Destiel positive'' you are a homophobe.  Hellers are notorious name callers.  Their name calling reaches epic proportions when they have to deal with J2 and wincest shippers because these two ships are their primary competition.  They seem to hate sastiel and mishalecki too, but no so much.  They rationalize their  ship shaming by saying that shipping Destiel is the moral high ground.  Because ''wincest is incest'' even though many wincest fans have said they just like J2's onscreen avatars and chemistry, and that they don't condone incest.  But acknowledging that is too difficult so instead of doing that, hellers go on repeat insisting that wincest fans are liars and perverts.  Shipping J2 is also morally wrong because ''they are totally like brothers''.  So hellers essentially want to police fandom and how it behaves and what it thinks.   

The Destiel fandom, primarily, only likes Misha and Misha-related stuff.  They insist that Misha is a lead, and an equal to Jensen and Jared.  They attack anyone who says otherwise, including Jensen and Jared.  Remember, the Nolacon joke that got blown out of proportion?  The only ones who screamed about the joke on SM, where the hellers.  They were taking revenge from Jensen and Jared for saying that Misha not a lead or ''lead support''.  Two people approached me about Misha fans [and these may just be minions and Destiel shippers] who said that they were attacked for not liking Cas or Misha.  One was attacked online.  The other is a kid who is attacked by a heller at school.  They can't seem to understand that you can't force someone to stan a celebrity or ship.  Its a common sense thing, that has to be explained to a heller.  They don't realize that people don't like to be told what to do and who to love.  People like celebrities who are their ''type''.  I don't like Misha.  He is not my ''type'' either physically or personality wise.  I never liked SPN because of him.  I like SPN because of the brothers and the story.  Forcing me to change my opinion is kind of drastic, don't you think?  I am certain that most fans who have a blind hatred for Misha now, used to be neutral fans who didn't have a negative opinion about him previously.  By forcing Misha on everyone, constantly screaming ''where's the angel?'' and insisting talk show hosts invite Misha too, since he's a ''lead'', they have irritated these fans to the point where now the fans scowl and the mere mention of Misha or Cas.  The same can be said for Destiel.  They pushed Destiel so much into everyone's face that fans who were amused by the whole shipping thing previously, no hate anything related to Destiel because they are sick of it.  I have seen Destiel in the AKF tag.  Hellers are also notorious over taggers.  In fact, that is where the rift began.  With the tagging. 

They don't acknowledge that slash is opinion-based.  Although this is an understudied area, I have a hypothesis.  Shipping is based on love.  If you love both the people in the pairing, you will write slash about them, because slash fiction is an expression of love, primarily.  There are some kinky bits and pieces here and there, but they are a byproduct of the love that the writer may have.  Some people cant slash Jared for some reason.  One fan [not a shipper, this is just an example] said, her brother [or was it her cousin] looks exactly like Jared.  She posted his picture, and if I hadn't read the caption, I would have thought that it was really Jared.  So I can understand if she doesn't want to slash Jared with anyone.  It would be weird for her because then she will have to write about him romantically.  One fan said [and this was years ago] that Jensen looks identical to her uncle.  She would never ship him or his character with anyone, because she would be repulsed.  I feel Jensen is one of the most beautiful men on Earth.  That is my opinion.  My cousin watched the scene where Dean is crying over Sam's dead body.  He wipes his tears and when his hands were in the frame, my cousin said ''he has ugly fingernails''.  Did I get offended?  No.  That is her opinion.  To her, his finger nails really are ugly.  And yet she thinks he has a handsome face.  I read a Sevin fic where the writer said, ''Jared has such hot knuckles''.  She is gushing over an obscure body part, because that is probably what she likes.  Hellers don't understand that.  They want everyone to like the same people, for the same reasons, in the same manner.  No diversion from that collective opinion is allowed.  People's desires are not uniform.  How they perceive beauty is also not uniform.  I call Misha ugly, partly because I don't appreciate being told to put my head in an oven and partly because [in my eyes] his behavior made me become sexually put off by him.  I used to slash him before.  Believe me, Misha only started to look ugly to me, when I started to really not like him.  For eight years he was nice looking.  Now I cant stand him and he is the most hideous beast I have ever seen.  That is not just my thinking.  I am certain other anti-Misha fans feel the same way.  They used to like him and find him attractive, until he just put them off.  I am sure if Misha did a 360 and changed his ways, he might start to look nice to us once more.  So technically Misha lost fans because of his own behavior.   

Hellers think that J2 fans are as crazy as they are.  They think bibros love J2 the same way that they love Misha.  Blindly.  In the years that I watched SPN, I remember falling in and out of love with both Jensen and Jared [and Sam and Dean for that matter] based on something that they had done that I had liked or didn't like.  Sometimes where I was emotionally, also played a part how I felt about them, or any other human being for that matter.  People's opinions over an individual will change due to various issues.  Just recently Jensen said something I didn't approve of.  Sometimes Jared puts his foot in his mouth.  They are human so they will mess up.  If they make one stupid mistake, I let it go only because messing up is not something that they consistently do, unlike Misha who doesn't acknowledge or learn from his mistakes.  If they consistently do things to cause a rift in fandom, then there are other celebrities out there.  I don't need them.  I will move on.  So I acknowledge, that just because I like someone, it doesn't mean that he is perfect and will never mess up.  It also means that because I like someone, it is not necessary for other people to like him too.  Even amongst bibros, we have minor disagreements J2 but we don't hate each other based of differences of opinions.  We don't insist that our opinion is the right one.  In the heller camp, meta writers think for everyone.  They decide how people are going to perceive a scene, or a moment during a panel.  In fact, the lower level hellers leaving the actual watching of the show to the meta writers.  They skip episodes that don't include Cas.  That is a lot of episodes they are missing, because Misha, up till this year, was only allocated a fixed number of episodes per season in his contract.  The meta writers watch the episodes through their shipping goggles, looking for what they would consider subtext, and then they write essays based on the episode, and the possible subtext they have found, including flimsy things like shirt colors.  The lower level hellers read it and become affronted that SPN is queer baiting them so blatantly.  They do the same thing with panels.  Instead of watching the generously shared panels on YouTube, for free, they follow a high level heller on social media who attends the con, and tweets something they perceive to be slashily scandalous.  They especially look for something to get offended by, when Jared speaks.  So the lower level hellers were not forming their own opinion but basing how they feel on someone else's opinion.  They hate Jared because of reasons listed by someone else.  If they were smart, they would think for themselves.   

There is nothing wrong with any of the ships on SPN.  Do I believe all ships are equal?  Well on SPN, to a certain extent, sure.  If someone doesn't like wincest, because they are victims of incest, that would make sense.  Wincest fans who acknowledge the abuse are friends of mine.  Those that are cruel about it, are not.  Its as simple as that.  I am a victim of pedophilia.  So I hate weecest.  I don't go near weecest fic.  If weecest fans acknowledge this and leave me alone, there wont be any problems.  If they try to push their kink onto me by trying to tell me how wrong my opinion is, then they will be sorry.  But you cant call yourself a victim, by going where you are likely to find a trigger and them complaining that you are being triggered.  Not only are you looking for trouble, but you are making abuse victims and their triggers look trivial.  Because now they appear like Divas, whom everyone else has to bend over backwards to please.  This allows me to segue into a similar topic.  I have heard complaints from fans, looking up a general SPN fan fic, investing time to read it, only for their enthusiasm to come to a screeching halt because as the chapters progress, Dean comes out as bi and in love with Cas.  Shouldn't the writer notify the reader that she or he is reading a destiel fanfic.  Not only are they mistagging their Tumblr posts.  They are mistagging fanfiction.  Essentially they are duping people into reading their stories.  What kind of indoctrination logic is this?   

Hellers need to understand that Destiel is not the biggest ship on SPN.  If they insist that it is, then they have to quantify that opinion with a number.  They wont because the last time they did that, the number went up to 8000 and stalled.  That makes them 1% of the fandom and they hate being reminded of it.  They have done debunking essays with regards to the number, but then why not do the census again.  Don't debunk with your words.  Use actual data.  Prove to ''all the haters'' that there are millions of you, voting with your remote and contributing to the ratings in the USA alone.  We will never bring up the number again.  Hellers need to also understand that slash is not the point of SPN.  The show is not about love and kinks and soap opera nonsense.  It is about the supernatural, hence the name.  Insisting on making Destiel canon and destroying Jensen's reputation by calling him a bigot because he refuses to do so, is a nasty thing to do, because hellers are not the only ones watching SPN.  Everyone is, and they like the show as it is.  They don't want change.  In fact, it will surprise you to know that wincest fans don't want wincest as a romance, to be canon.  They don't demand anything accept better storylines.  The only people doing the demanding are the hellers.  It is time for dialogue to open between the destiel fans and the hellers, because the hellers are ruining not just the ship but the show as well. 

I hope this answers the question.  Thank you once again, for the ask.