#homestuck postcanon

[nekropsii]

Average Ally on Earth C.

[juney-blues]

curious how opinions on the epilogues/hs:bc are split between people who read homestuck as it came out and archive readers

[sam-keeper]

Here's some early marker tests for the pop up emotes in the new Godfeels chapter

yes, the reason they look like paper cutouts is because they actually are drawn on paper. I thought it would be funny and Sarah agreed! originally I planned to have them look like the "BLEH" and "BLUH BLUH HUGE BITCH" scribbles in Homestuck but I'm just not very good at drawing that kind of cartoon frankly, and it also just didn't look as good imo in actual marker vs the hard mspaint brushes. so, I gravitated towards a more game ui influenced look, a little more polished. once I hit on the speech bubble looking icons with just facial expressions inside that felt pretty good, with one weird wrinkle: I was working with this sort of busted staedtler marker that Sarah found in our building's dumpster along with a bunch of other staedtlers and, bafflingly, some totally unused posca paint markers. anyway, I was using it to lay down the dark navy color because I liked how bleedy it was, how quickly the ink started flowing fast and hard. it did make the process more tedious because I had to turn the dumb thing upside down and wait for it to calm down before I did each new set of three sprites but overall I liked the results... until I scanned them in. I think my scanner has a weirdly limited sensitivity to blue generally, and it seems like whatever pigment staedtler uses is... I guess MORE reflective of light? than the tombows I used for the rest of the colors? especially the red tombow I used for Dave's colors. so I had to monkey around in photoshop to drop the blue values down darker, to match how it looked on the actual page.

here's the whole sprite sheet, which for whatever reason in this photo is much closer to the physical colors than the scans above are

once I color corrected them, Sarah cleaned them up and Janet composited them in with her sprites and set, resulting in the fun combo of styles in the chapter:

[kozzax]

The thing about post-canon Jade is that she is actually genuinely in character. Yes, even candy!Jade's scandal with Rose. In fact I'd argue that's one of the most in-character moments in the epilogues for either of them. Especially with the context of the most recent update.

TO BE CLEAR. I don't think it was a GOOD decision. I think they definitely should've TALKED to Kanaya about it before they went through with having Yiffany. I think they should have raised her without keeping her secret from literally their entire family.

But it IS in character.

Jade wanted a kid because she was afraid of being isolated and left behind by all of her peers. Given how incredibly lonely she's been HER ENTIRE LIFE and how much abandonment she's gone through, this was a REASONABLE FEAR. All of her friends were moving into a new stage of life, and she couldn't bear to be left behind again, because she's always being left behind.

Rose didn't necessarily want a kid, but she DID want to help Jade. Rose and Jade are genuinely good friends. The beta kids are all ride or die for each other. If Jade had asked Dave or Jegbert-- circumstances willing --they might've suggested communication, but they would've done it, because this is their Jade. Any of them would move mountains for any of the others in a heartbeat. Rose and Jade are no exception to this rule. While Rose loves Kanaya, loves her a whole lot, she's not... great? At current events? She looked into the future, saw that Kanaya would forgive her, and went ok. It's help Jade time.

And yes, they should have talked to Kanaya about it. But this is Rose and Jade. Some of the least communicative characters in Homestuck. Both of them just fix it themselves, and then never talk with anyone else about why or how or what they're doing until it's too late. Of course they messed up on the communication-- they've never been able to communicate well with anyone.

There's no world in which they figured that out in the time that they grew up on Earth C, considering they raised themselves as gods for the remainder of their teenage lives.

Kanaya has every right to be fucking PISSED about this. She's in the right to be angry with both of them for the shit they pulled. They were in the wrong for Rose cheating on Kanaya and Jade asking her to do it. But it was, actually, FULLY in character.

[transmascswagpolls]

Transmasc Swag Polls- ROUND 1

Propaganda and other info under the cut.

CANONICITY LEVELS-

BOW: Subtext/ Coded (liked by the creator, but he has stated that he won't confirm anything because retroactively making something canon makes him uncomfortable) DIRK: Subtext/ Coded (so heavily that the author tried- and failed- to kill the headcanon in extended media)

MEDIA? She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Homestuck (and other related media) BOW PROPAGANDA- He's shown bathing in something that looks a lot like a binder, is included in the princesses group as the only man* and there's a whole episode that is constructed as a coming out allegory- Bow has to tell his dads he's a warrior and not a researcher/historian and has been lying to them about what he's been up to. The creator has stated he didn't intend for Bow to be read as trans but does like the headcanon. *Seahawk is also there but more as support to Mermista, Bow is integrated in the group from the beginning and even points out how "he's the only one here who's not a princess". He's one of the coolest characters and a great inventor, archer and best friend of Glimmer and Adora. Bow is such a great example of healthy masculinity, always ready to defend people in need but never aggressive or confrontational. His love of short shirts is so iconic he even cut his space suit to show off a bit of his belly- we love a guy dedicated to his fashion sense. DIRK PROPAGANDA- One of the last two humans on earth, the only source of how to be a human for the first like, ten years of his life until he meets Roxy is all the shit his Bro left for him and the archive of the internet. He decides he's not a fan of all the shit that's considered "girly" in the 2010s and 2020s bc he wants to be just like his Bro, so he's transmasc not bc of societal expectations but bc that's just what he's comfortable with. [Pollrunner's Note: I will not even pretend that I'm not biased here. Dirk is the character that cracked my egg so hard that I couldn't deny that I was trans anymore. He's a canonically gay boy handled with an extreme amount of grace in an era of media where that was completely unheard of, retroactively making one of the most popular and masculine adults in the entire comic gay as well, since it is revealed that they are one and the same. There's an entire passage in the comic in his and Roxy's introductions joking about chromosomes, textually making an observation that he and Roxy are in a 'reverse adam and eve situation'. He cares so, so much about his friends but is incapable of expressing those feelings because he's afraid that by his very nature as a person that he is both corrupting them and doesn't deserve them. Dirk's story has a lot to do with abuse, emotional neglect, and what it means to feel like you're fundamentally a bad person but living every day trying to break that cycle regardless. Textually he was based off of (accidentally and then later an intentional deconstruction of) Gurren Lagann's Kamina, a character I have described as the "platonic ideal of masculinity". The way he was written in postcanon lead to feelings so strong that I ended up having a conversation known as the "Dirk Rant" that my brother claims "changed the way he viewed media forever". He is THE transmasc blorbo of all time to a majority of the Homestuck fandom.]

[dyspunktional-leviathan]

Your reminder to please tag Homestuck Epilogues and Homestuck^2 if you use tags.

Making that post primarily because the postcanon is very upsetting to some and they would really like to avoid it, and also that way those who *want* to see postcanon things will have easier time finding them.

[lucabyte]

On autonomy, and what it means to be Obliged to Help.

Bonus:

[sam-keeper]

just wrote a bunch of thoughts on my experience compositing and writing for this chapter, what I wanted to do with it, and some of the cool stuff I think the team accomplished :)

it's like… Godfeels Unleashed I guess. check it out!

GODFEELS UPD8: B1 CHORUS 4

in which tragedy unfolds aboard the Hours Badger.

[beescake]

I LOVE SOLKAT AND I LOVE YOUR ART SO MUCH UGHHHHHH their dynamic is one of my favorites and your art made me love them even more

AYY HAPPY TO HEAR THAT !!!

HAPPY TO SPREAD THE AGENDA <3

[tibli]

people treating either dirk or jake as the 'villain' of the relationship fundamentally misunderstand that they were isolated teenagers with social issues who both contributed to the relationship's problems, and neither of them are evil

[nekropsii]

Not to be controversial, but I do think it's quite silly to knock on Homestuck: Beyond Canon for having references to internet memes in it, saying that this will "inevitably date it", and calling that an inherently bad thing. I understand if that's just not your personal taste, modern pop culture/online culture references is definitely something that will turn a lot of people off, but... Homestuck itself was filled to the brim with those same kinds of references. It's truly just keeping in the spirit of the original work, people only find it jarring now because they aren't experiencing it in a state of being a beloved time capsule.

Homestuck, as a piece of fiction, is fundamentally extremely derivative, referential, and reactionary, completely chock full of inside jokes and references to at-the-time modern media and memes. The level in which HS2 is engaging with current memes and media is honestly substantially lighter than Homestuck itself was. During early Homestuck in particular, it's difficult to go even one page without some kind of reference being present in it, especially considering a major point of the setting design and character writing is their relationship to other media. The posters on their walls, the games they play, the fact that Dave is living in a Saw trap, et cetera.

I find this train of criticism to be particularly fascinating, as to me it shows that, in some way, it doesn't really feel like a lot of people ever look at Homestuck as something that was ever new. The time period it was made in is almost never taken into consideration when analyzing the work. Homestuck never was, it just is. HS2 has current-day meme references because it is a current-day Homestuck story. This is exactly how things should be. This is just how Homestuck is.

[mrjocrafter]

counterargument under the cut because it's really long, and CWs for mentions of various kinds of abuse (you read the OP)

I feel this interpretation only works if you cut a big UltDirk shaped hole out of Doc Scratch's characterization.

Considering only the first half of Homestuck in isolation, absolutely. But consider, if you will, the actual "attention the text gives to his creepy interactions with young girls"; Doc Scratch's request of Rose to "try to think of me as one of your kindly human uncle figures" (HS page 3627) comes right after Rose calls him a creep for saying he "[has] a soft spot for young ladies", seeming to validate the interpretation of Scratch as some sort of predator or groomer.

However. This conversation (one of the two times, I recall, which Scratch's creep factor is brought up) is a setup for a brick joke that will be paid off 3,821 pages later in [S] MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown, where that exact line comes back in the video so as to say 'this was foreshadowing, chucklefucks' - to the true nature of Lord English/Doc Scratch. The comic literally tells you 'Doc Scratch is Hal.' And given Scratch's omniscience inside and outside the fourth wall, he probably only said those things specifically for the audience\Rose to figure out later.

This interpretation sort of relies on the obstinate hatred for dubcanon* and the Epilogues specifically, causing a blanket rejection of any interpretations of Jane and Dirk's face-heel turns during the Epilogues as based in setup from Homestuck proper (as if they literally don't individually say "hey, i'm going to/might do [thing they will eventually do later in the Epilogues]").

Fully understanding Doc Scratch requires us to understand that Dirk/Hal/Bro Strider was (one of) the main villain(s) all along. You're right that Doc Scratch is a figure of an abuser, but not the "groomer" (in either the muddled general society sense, or the more realistic Humbert Humbert sense), that of an abusive parent (not that those are in any way mutually exclusive, but Scratch is primarily the latter). Parenthood is one of Homestuck's major themes; and in many of the storylines the abusive parent figure is a version of Dirk; Dave, Rose (twice), Vriska, the Handmaid, and to a lesser extent Kanaya, Aradia and Terezi. (Also Hal and Alpha Dirk themselves, because möbius double reacharound)

When we actually get Dirk (and Hal) as proper "protagonists" in Act 6, we see them essentially in a contest of ego over who can ruin their relationships with the other alpha kids faster. (Dirk is, of course, also the one Caliborn talks to and relates to the most). Dirk for his entire protagonist stint (and his entire antagonist stint too, honestly) is a Byronic "Hero", of the anti-villainous variety.

The many versions of Dirk Strider collectively tell a story of abuse, specifically parental abuse. Doc Scratch is one of them.

*usually called postcanon, but I hate that term because it implies way more disconnect from actual canon than "dubiously canon" (the real term) does. that's its own post, though.

Given his writing style, his narrative control, his penchant for manipulation and long-term grooming of children to serve a purpose, and the repeated attention the text gives to his creepy interactions with young girls, is Doc Scratch supposed to be a Humbert Humbert figure? Because I feel like that would make for a compelling reading of him.

[shittyjakeenglish]

Day 173

postcanon/epilogues. oh hes? hes not okay is he??

[relaxxattack]

if they made roxy transmasc in postcanon does that mean ult dirk is transfemme

[kozzax]

I've been thinking about postcanon a lot today. I think... the thing is I know a lot of people won't enjoy it. It very much isn't for everyone. The epilogues in particular are intended to be hostile towards readers and are very much uncomfortable to get through.

That being said, I think the way that the epilogues and Beyond Canon work as a unit is really compelling.

Homestuck is a story about telling stories-- this is common knowledge. Also common knowledge is that the ending of Homestuck is the kids getting to leave the narrative. Their happy ending exists only when they exit the spotlight, only when their story is concluded and our paths diverge from theirs.

The epilogues function as almost a punishment for the reader, because we forced that spotlight back on them. We as readers are meant to really truly feel and understand the consequences our yearning for more have on these characters. You want them to be back in the narrative? Alright. Now you have to truly reckon with what you've done.

That's why they're so hostile and unkind. You're not supposed to enjoy them. They're uncomfortable and distressing and rough to get through because you as a reader have hurt these characters by continuing the narrative.

What Beyond Canon does, then, is recognize that we as readers have gone through the epilogues. We understand the horrors we have brought onto these characters. We know what we've done.

Beyond Canon takes this and says alright. Now it's our turn to fix it. Now it's time to guide them back out of the horrors and, hopefully, to end their narratives once and for all. It's the uncurling of the monkey's paw.

We see this so clearly in a lot of the recent upd8s. The heroes are getting their chances to speak out against what happened in the epilogues, getting their chances to truly process their emotions. We still have a long way to go to undo the damage our narrative spotlight did, but we're working on it.

And the Omega kids-- well. They've only just entered the narrative, haven't they! Their happy ending isn't necessarily defined by leaving it, and even if it was it would be leaving the narrative after they've grown. Beyond Canon takes them from being the props that they were in the epilogues and gives them a chance to flourish.

I like postcanon a lot. This is... only part of how I think about it-- the other part is less meta and more about how actually it's all very in character when you look at it through the right lens, but that's a post for another day. I just. I think it's so interesting and compelling ok.

[sugarfreerooibos]

Religion in general is one of my absolute favorite parts of culture in both the real world and in media, so I’m ngl I was pretty peeved by the approach taken in the Epilogues; in fact, I’d say your last paragraph was my main issue with them. From a real-time world building perspective— which is basically what they were doing in the credits— it makes zero sense for history to even be established or taught outside of basic information about the main characters + paradox space. If anything, I could see the horrorterrors being mentioned. However, the establishment of religious institutions/buildings and systemic biases against trolls implies that broader history has been part of Earth C culture for a very long time.

In my eyes, this is just shitty storytelling. Jane’s whole... situation… is only possible (or at least much more feasible) if trolls are already marginalized. Without the fear that trolls would make Alternia Two Electric Boogaloo if allowed to reproduce relatively freely, it would be infinitely more difficult to garner support from the public for discriminatory policies— and this, of course, requires the history of Alternia to be taught. Bc literally Why The Fuck would you give a new society info on all the shitty parts of your individual cultures (and why did people care so much more about the bad parts of troll history??) if not to make for some easier conflict. It’s never made particularly clear, and I think that’s a very large part in why the whole Jane Xenophobia Troll Versus Human debacle feels so strange; the background info for post-canon is all on an extremely shaky foundation thinly masked as social commentary.

That aside, I do think the funniest possible reason is Dirk info-dumping about history with absolutely no forethought as soon as someone is willing to listen. He’s already caused a large part of the Epilogues bullshit, so fuck it what’s one more fiasco for the pile lol

OK but I'm genuinely fucking obsessed with the possible theology of earth c. Before they appeared in the modern day were little kids taught to pray to Jane every night for the gift of life. Do people treat them like Catholics treat saints? Do folks lost in the woods look up to the sky and hope for Egbert bc the thought is that she'll lead them home? Do they have priests? Is there a temple dedicated to Rose? Temple cats? You know the theological discourse must be Insane