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Episode 100 Transcript: Is Destiel Kinda Real?

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello! It's Grey.

C: Hello! It's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows about the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 18: “Point of No Return,” written by Jeremy Carver, directed by Phil Sgriccia, or is this a different person? 'Cause it says "Philip Sgriccia." Is this a different dude?

C: That's probably the same person.

G: Yeah. But what if it's like, Phil's son Philip? You know? [laughs] Or something.

C: No, the Wiki link goes to the same guy.

G: But why is it Philip Sgriccia suddenly? Did he change his name?

C: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe he decided that he prefers to go by Philip.

G: I think. Yeah, I think he like, shifted. Happy transitioning or something. [laughs] Anyway, Mr. Phillip Sgriccia directed this episode. I would like to say... this episode is good.

C: Yeah, I was surprised. Like, I feel like I go back and forth on Supernatural a lot. But like, this is like, this was pretty good, yeah.

G: The thing is like, you know, when we say "good episode," we always have that thing where it's like, "It's a good episode of Supernatural." But this one is a good episode, period. If you tell me, “Watch this TV episode,” I'll be like, “That's a good episode of television.”

C: Okay, I wouldn't go that far. [laughs]

G: I would say it is, I would say it is. It sets out to do something, and it does it successfully. [laughs] [C: Yeah, yeah.] Yeah. And it's compelling. It does something. I think that's the thing that got to me the most, like-

C: Uh-huh. That it does something? [both laughing]

G: [laughing] The bar is on the floor.

C: No other TV has ever done this before. You guys seeing this? This episode tries to do something! [laughs]

G: [laughs] It's not that no other TV has done it. I think that this is what it's supposed to do. This is the status quo, and it achieved the status quo of what television is supposed to do.

C: Yeah, okay, yeah. I believe it. I see it.

G: You know how in the past, maybe just between the two of us, honestly, we have complained about seeing the bricks that make up the story, and how that's like, not fun. This one is like, I can see the bricks that make up the episode, but I love it. Like, I appreciate it. It makes me appreciate the writing. It's compelling. Not just plot. Honestly, the plot is like, the least of your concern in this episode, I feel like, for me. I'm like, "Don't give a shit." But like, every character you meet, for example, you're like, "That's a compelling way to write that character going through that situation." And like, yeah, it does it well. It tries to do something, it does it. [laughs]

C: Yeah, also, Cas is on screen a lot and is hot. [G: Yeah.] And also, I think that this episode actually thinks about Sam's perspective. [G: Exactly.] Which is a rare event.

G: That's what I'm saying. That, like, it's character-driven. It's a character-driven episode, [laughing] which cannot be said about literally any other episode of Supernatural, it feels like. Like, it's actually, genuinely good. And it focuses on Sam, but it's not Sam-centric. Fuck, it's not even Dean-centric! It's just like, it's characters in a thing. And I don't know. I really like that. Because sometimes we'll have what we call a Sam episode, and it'll be an episode that considers Sam, and particularly because it's Sam-centric. But this one is like, you can have an episode that is not like, a quote-unquote "Sam-centric episode" and still have his character come out so much. Like, that is a possibility in the TV show Supernatural. Yeah, I feel like moving forward, this can be an episode I compare to to like, "Why can't they do this here? They did it in 'Point of No Return'!" You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] They do the characters so well, and they write them so well, and I appreciate it. I love it! [laughs] I'm like, "I wuv Supernatural." [laughing] Does anyone- is anyone surprised? No. But, like, I am, kinda.

Well, Crystal, what did you know about this episode before you watched it?

C: I knew that Cas beats Dean up in an alley for wanting to say yes to Michael [G: Hell yeah.] and them brings him back, and Sam goes, "What happened to him?" and Cas goes, "Me."

G: Me!

C: Meee! [G laughs]

G: He literally goes, "Meee!" [laughs]

C: And also that Adam gets yoinked from Heaven, where his best memory is making out with his girlfriend on prom night, to be Michael's vessel instead. And then I don't think that I knew the rest very well.

G: Yeah. I knew everything that happens in this episode, and it is also an episode that previously, I have seen a lot of analysis of, and I have also dedicated, like, because of that, seeing analysis of it, I think I've also dedicated some time in my life thinking about it in that way more than most episodes of Supernatural. And like, I think re-watching it, I understand. Seeing it all put together in this way, I understand why it has garnered such analysis. [laughs] Like, I understand. Because so many of the- there's so many distinct characterizations, so it's so fun to sink your teeth into.

G: I'm not sure I'll cut this if that's not true.

C: Oh, yeah, should we mention the 100th episode-

G: Oh, yeah. And also, this is the 100th episode of Supernatural, and [both] of BABPod!

C: - which is far more important.

G: So if you've listened to us all this while, episode 1 up until now, if you're a new listener, if you're listening from the future, years from now, and you're like, "Wow! What did they think of 5.18, the 100th episode of Supernatural?" welcome! Thank you so much for listening. It really has- it's been wonderful. I love doing this podcast. Thank you so much to everyone [C: Yeah, thank you.] who- like, not to plug our Ko-Fi, but, like, literally, everyone who's given us money on that thing, thank you so much as well. I really appreciate it. [C: Yeah.] Everyone who has ever emailed us, messaged us, anything, it's such a wonderful thing that we get to do this and that we are doing it, even if nobody wants it. And people do actually want it, still! So like, you know, it's great. Love it! Yeah. Let's start the episode.

C: Okay. Well, there's a "Then" sequence that is really nothing. It's just Zachariah complaining about not being able to get them to say yes to Lucifer and Michael, and then we find out who Adam is, and that he got eaten by ghouls, and that's the "Then" sequence. And also, Dean goes to Lisa.

G: Ah. I thought you were talking about the teaser, and I was like, "How dare you say that that was nothing."

C: Oh, no, that was wonderful!

G: - "I think that's wonderful." Yeah! I was kind of offended. But yeah, the "Then" sequence, whatever the fuck. But the teaser is quite wonderful. It's quite wonderful. And the thing is like, Zachariah dies this episode, and I feel like this is a pretty good last hurrah for his character. Because for the first time in this entire season, I feel like, I'm like, "I like this dude again." Like, "This is fun." And it is pretty fun. And I'm also glad he died, I really am, but I'm glad that in his last moments, we were able to savor and bring back the things about his character that actually make him fun, you know? I think what it is just there's women this episode. [both laugh] It could very well be that.

C: There's one female angel briefly, of the four that Cas sends off.

G: This is true, yeah, but nobody has a speaking line. And Zachariah does not speak to any of them, which is, [C: True. A win.] you know, why his character works, I guess. [C laughs] Yeah.

C: How horrible! So yeah.

G: So it's Zachariah. He's in a bar. He's drinking, and he's in his suit and tie, corporate outfit, and the guy next over in the bar is like, “Hey, dude, did you also get fired?” And he's like, “Yeah, man, you can say that,” or whatever the fuck. And like, they start bonding about being fired! [C laughs] And it's so fun. At some point, Zachariah goes, "Yeah, oh, it's like, they don't care about at all, everyone. It's like they don't understand what being here means, you know?" And he's like, "Oh, it's so horrible! They should be here, down on the ground in the mud, nose-to-nose with all you pig-filthy humans, am I right?" And the dude beside is like, "Yeah, of course! Wait, what did you just say? What's that?" [C laughs] He's like, "Yeah, it's so fucking- Have we never heard about personal loyalty?" [laughs] Love that. He's like, “I should have tenure right now.” [C: Real.] And he should have. He worked for five millennia, six, maybe, which is his words. Is that true? [C: I mean-] I mean, I suppose so, but like, is it?

C: Yeah. But why is the world only 5,000 or 6,000 years old?

G: Why is existence- Or is it, like, he's talking about, like, the Earth, specifically?

C: Yeah, it could be Earth. It could be this specific role.

G: Yeah, it could be, like, this specific job posting, yeah. He had one job, and it was literally to make Dean Winchester say yes or something, and he didn't do it. He asks this dude, "So what are you gonna do next?" And the guy's like, "I don't know, man. Maybe something about the Internet." And Zachariah's like, "Yeah?" [both laughing] [C: Like encouragingly.] Like, he's genuinely like, "Yeah? Mm-hm? Mm-hm? So true." And suddenly, the bar starts shaking. I always love the effect that they do for this kind of thing. Like, it does actually feel how I think they're trying to make it feel. And yeah. Bar shakes, bottles flipping over, and then, you know, the piercing sound of the angel, and then the guy's eyes just burn out.

C: They're all- Yeah, it's very fun, because the whole time, Zachariah’s just standing there like, “Ugh, here's my boss again. Get it over with," like, to the guy who's covering his ears and eyes burning out and screaming and blood coming out and shit.

G: Yeah. Zachariah just opens his arms out to the Heavens, just goes like, "Yeah, let's just fucking go." I love it. He's like, "Wow, I did badly at my job, and now they're gonna take me out back and shoot me." [both laugh]

C: And they actually are. He says later that "Firing is literal."

G: And they literally were gonna take him out back and shoot him. And yeah, suddenly, this angel voice tells him something else. And he's like, "Okay, sure! I'll do that!" And he's like, so happy, and he turns around. His buddy is dead. [C laughs] The bartender's dead. And there's a drink of whiskey at the table, and he picks it up, and there's a giant shard of glass in it. [C laughs] He takes out the shard of glass, he drinks the whiskey, puts it down, [C: So good.] puts the glass shard back. Love that. I think that's so fun. And he's like, “Okay, back to business, boys!" And then he hums a tune as he gets out of that bar into the world.

C: Wonderful.What a fun time. When's the last time we had a good cold open like that?

G: I mean, something akin to this, I would say probably, it even goes way back to like, 4.16. That's "On the Head of a Pin," right? [C: Yeah.] I think that was the last time I was like, "Oh my god! Like, Supernatural is so cool." which you you would think that, like, for a cold open, that is the point the cold open. To make you go, "I'll keep on watching." But very rarely does it achieve this? [both laugh]

C: Yeah, this is true. This is true.

C: Anyway. So we're at a motel, and Dean's preparing himself to saying yes to Zachariah, so he's doing all this goodbye stuff. And he's packing [both laughing] four items into a box, and they are... his dad's leather jacket, the keys to the Impala, his special little gun, and a letter to Sam.

G: So true. No letter to Bobby!

C: And he's addressing it to "Robert Singer." Like, [laughs] he isn't even giving Bobby the comfort of, like, his familiar name on this box that he's gonna ship.

G: Well, you need to fucking ship that thing with the name. Is that true? Or it just needs to be a name that the person recognizes?

C: Yeah, it doesn't have to be a legal name as long as you have address on. [G: This is true.] It doesn't even have to be the name of someone who lives at that address. Like, the mailperson isn't gonna check.

G: Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Well, sometimes they do if they're looking for an ID.

C: Yeah, I suppose so.

G: But that's so fucked up. No one should ever see my ID.

C: Yeah, that's true. He does have a gun in this. Maybe, like, he has to check some special boxes at the post office.

G: Yeah, maybe he was going to write "Bobby Singer, you're like a father to me" in the box, [C laughs] and then the post office was like, "Nah, there's a gun in here. You need to put a fucking ID name." And he's like, "Oh, damn it. [C: Damn it.] I would have put 'You're just like a father to me for real!' on it otherwise."

C: Yeah. And okay, this scene, the sad music that they chose is kinda cringe.

G: It's comical. It's so funny. Also, the way they're like, "Dean is so sad! He's drinking!" and to differentiate Dean's drinking now from literally all the other times he has drunk, which is like, in every possible emotional situation. [laughs] [C: Yes.] Like, literally every emotion he's been in, we've seen him drink. But the way we differentiate this, he does it slowly. He's like, emo about it. [laughing] [C: Yeah.] It's so- It's so funny, I will admit. [C: Yeah.] I will admit, when this scene played, I was like, "Wow, we had such a really good teaser." And then this scene starts playing, and I'm like, [C: I did start laughing.] "Maybe I had too much hopes so much in Supernatural being able to pull this off 'cause it's so ridiculous." [C laughs]

C: Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. I think it's supposed to be like, "Isn't it so sad that this is all he leaves behind?" But, like-

G: Yeah. All of his dad's stuff, too.

C: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I did pause on the letter. Did you?

G: What did you- No, I didn't. I didn't give a shit.

C: Okay, so his head is still blocking half of it, so, okay, so the parts I can make out: "I'll be surprised if," something, "you, but if it does," something. "That what I'm going" or, sorry, "that what I'm doing isn't," something. "Taught us better than that," something. "We've run out of it. Where I'm going, we don't... Know you'll look after her for," which I'm assuming is about the Impala.

G: - Lisa. Oh, no?

C: "Taken more for the team..." So true, he has. "... ever asked. That makes you an" something "Winchester in my book." I'm assuming it's "alright" or, like, something like that. [G: Yeah.] And then, "You told me once that you pray," blank. "Not sure if that's still true. Probably not. But if it is, give it one last try," [G: Aw!] blank, "Sammy, one Winchester," blank, "enough. When it's over," and then that's all of it. But yeah, I did get emo on the "You told me once that you pray every day. I'm not sure if that's still true. Probably not. But if it is, give it one last try." Like, that's nice. I'm glad that they called back to that in some way.

G: Yeah. Is Sam ever gonna read this letter? I don't know why I'm asking you. I'm supposed to be the person who's watched the show.

C: Like, I mean, they do take the box back, I'm assuming, 'cause Dean is gonna get his items back, and he drives the Impala this episode. I don't know if he would try to hide the letter from Sam when they were, like, reopening the box or not.

G: Yeah. I mean, mostly I was disconcerted by Dean's writing posture. [both laugh] Because I'm an asshole, as we have established, and I'm a pedant about everything, so all reflective of my negative traits, none of his, unfortunately. [C laughs] [pause] [laughs] That's literally it. That's what I have to say.

C: Okay. What was his posture?

G: It's like- Look at it. Like, his hand is like- he's gonna get cramps.

C: Oh, you mean his pen grip.

G: - in there. Yeah, his pen grip, it's like a tripod grip, but like, really disconcerting. I don't know. I'm just judgmental, as we have established, so it doesn't matter at all. If you write exactly like Dean Winchester, you're probably fine. You should probably relax a bit, though, [laughs] is my hot take. Is his handwriting nice? What do you think? I was kind of impressed because there's no lines on this stationary. [laughs] [C: That's true.] And his lines are so straight, [C: Just like him.] and I find it fun. Find it impressive, even.

G: Yeah. No, that's not true. I need to say no, I feel like. [C laughs]

C: Not in this episode. It's not true, yeah. [G laughs]

G: Let's talk about it when we get to it.

C: The lines are pretty straight, yeah. I think it's nice that none of the letters run into the other letters. I feel like that takes some skill.

G: What are you talking about?

C: Like, the letters aren't connected to each other. [G laughs] [G: Ohh!] Like, it's not like, half-cursive.

G: It's not fake cursive, fake- yeah. Why does it take skill to do that?

C: I think if you're writing fast in pen, it'll just bleed. But this is like, a shitty motel pen, so you actually have to press pretty hard for each line, so.

G: Yeah, that's why he's really pressing so hard. It's because of the shitty motel pen. [C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.] I'm sorry, Dean Winchester. [C: Sorry, Dean Winchester.] Buy a nice pen! Like, you have a journal, you fucking sustain that shit. Buy a nice pen, is one of my recommendations.

C: I mean, he cut and ran. He didn't bring all his stuff with him.

G: Yeah, this is true.

C: That's why he only has four things to put in the box.

G: He won't be like, "Let me bring my ink and my fountain pen to this fucking spontaneous saying yes to Michael excursion." [C: Exactly.] Couldn't it be me. I'd bring it. [C laughs]

C: You know, he's very somber. He's drinking. He's doing all this. As he tapes the box shut, he hears Sam's voice behind him. [G: Agh!] Sam goes, "Sending someone a candy gram?" And Sam looks bad this scene. [G laughing] Sorry to Sam Winchester and maybe to Jared Padalecki?

G: I'm endeared by him this episode because they do something with his makeup, or maybe they do less with his makeup. Like, maybe he just has less makeup.

C: His cheeks are rosy in a way that makes him look ill in this scene.

G: No, but I love it! I love it. You know, when I put on- 'Cause the way I put on my makeup is kind of like, I'm trying to do a masc look, whatever. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Why am I laughing at that? It's not funny! [laughs] It's kind of stupid. It's kind of goofy when I do it. But like, I think when you're trying to do a masc look, the way I do it is like, I put it in that part of my face so it looks like I'm kinda, like, flush or whatever, but, like, naturally. Like, the way you would do if you're running a lot. I think they were trying to do that with him this episode. They watched the exact same YouTube video tutorial on how to do masculinizing makeup that I did, [C laughs] and they did it to Jared Padalecki. Or maybe Sam did it. He was like, "Before I go to Dean Winchester, before I follow my brother, who is potentially going to say yes to Michael, I'm going to stand in front of this motel room mirror and do my makeup," and he's so real for that.

C: So true. Dean is surprised that Sam is here, but Sam goes, "You're going to kill yourself, right? It's not too hard to figure out the stops on the farewell tour. How's Lisa doing, anyways?"

G: Why?

C: First off, I don't- I guess he saw her in Dean's mind in "Dream a Little Dream of Me."

G: But the thing is, you know, if one of my sisters, I got into their dreams, and it's just some random woman in there, I'll be like, "Okay." Like, I won't think about it. [C laughs] You know what I mean? Like, "Yeah, you dreamt about this woman." It won't be like, "Wow! She has always been- This has always been your dream, to be with Lisa"? Yeah.

C: Yeah, I don't know. Sam Winchester- That's because you have like, a full life, and you can think about other things. But Sam Winchester doesn't even have a podcast. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. The true, like, in the Maslow hierarchy of needs, [laughs] the podcast, that's self-actualization, and Sam Winchester couldn't even have it.

C: Exactly. So he stopped by and- I still don't know why- how that would help if Dean left. Is this like, a motel very near where Lisa lives?

G: Probably. Or it's like- Actually, I don't know, because you can do this from anywhere. You can do what Dean is doing right now from this side of the road, like, honestly. So like, why this motel room, specifically?

C: Yeah, I mean, I guess the Impala is a pretty distinct vehicle.

G: Yeah. Maybe he did his like, slow walk inside in like, [laughs] multiple rooms now. And the other rooms were like, "Who the fuck are you?" And he's like, "Sowwy! I thought you were my brother." And so yeah, this is his fifth try.

C: And Dean says, "I'm not going to kill myself," and Sam goes like, "No? So Michael's not about to make you his Muppet?" And he starts getting angry at Dean for "just walking out," as he puts it. And Dean's just like, "Yeah, okay. I'm gonna do it. Yup." And Sam goes, "How could you do that?" And then Dean says [laughs] the most ridiculous sentence ever! He goes, "How could I? All you've ever done is run away!" [G laughs] You're right. Going to college is the same thing as this. I don't get it. I don't get it.

G: Also, do we need to interface with this scene as like, a suicide attempt the way Supernatural is doing so?

C: Yeah, maybe. By interface, you mean laugh less [G: Yeah.], or just discuss it-

G: Maybe we should bring that up. Or like, I don't know. I mean, let's bring it up when Bobby quite equally equates them.

C: I mean, Sam quite equally does it by saying the words "kill yourself."

G: [laughing] Yeah, he said, "Kill yourself," specifically. No context around it. [C: Exactly.] Yeah, anyway, this is the framing. That is the framing of this scene, as a suicide attempt.

C: Yeah. I mean, I think the note is very clear, [G: Yeah, of course.] and the lingering shot on the gun before Dean puts it in the box, I think you're supposed to go, "Is he gonna do it?"

G: Yeah. You know, I did think to myself, "Why don't they just kill themselves?" [laughs]

C: No, literally. Literally, literally- [G: Why?] Like, Season 5, like, to Sam and Dean's perspective is like, "This is a whole season about how, like, you can't escape fate, and like, no matter what, we're gonna have to say yes to Lucifer and Michael." But like, it is also a season, where in two different episodes, like, in "Song Remains the Same" and "Dark Side of the Moon," like, an alternative is presented very clearly, which is that "If you're dead, you can't do it."

G: I mean, the thing is, that's why they went to Heaven, pretty much. To be like, "No, they can't die, 'cause you see, in Heaven, Zachariah is still gonna chase them" and blah blah blah. I think just go to Hell, honestly. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, literally just go to Hell. Make a demon deal and [G: Like, maybe just go to Hell or something.] be like, "Make it last like, two days. Thank you!"

G: "Thank you!" That's it. [C: Thankies!] Do you think you can do that like? Can you be like, "Ah, fuck! I've killed a guy. I'm already going to Hell, anyway. Why don't I get a demon-" demon degree? [laughs] What's the fucking thing? [C: Deal?] Demon deal, yeah. I think I was confusing deal and agreement, and I was like, "That's kind of like a degree. Well." Can you get a demon deal that's like, "Okay, but like, it'll be chill." Like, the deal is like, "I'll live my life the way it is, but when I go to Hell, you won't torture me as much"? Or is it like, you're already going to Hell, and that's all they need, and they kind of need to torture. I feel like they don't.

C: I don't think there's anything else that- if you're already going to Hell, you can't make the deal, I think.

G: Well, it could also be you could make the deal, so they're like, "Ah, this person was gonna go to Heaven, but now they're gonna go to Hell." And then you start, you know, being like, "Now, I'm free from all inhibitions. I could just kill a guy." [laughs] [C: True.] Yeah, much to think about.

C: Much to think about. Dean says that saying yes to Michael's the exact same thing as going to college. [G: Love that.] And, okay, "all you've ever done." Like, this happened, like, what? Three times, max? Like, when Sam was a little baby kid [G laughs] and he wanted to play with a dog and eat pizza, when Sam went to college, and then when Sam quit hunting for a little bit. [G: So true.] Whatever. I guess this is what the episode is saying. And Sam goes, "And I was wrong. Every single time I did."

G: He was literally not. [laughs] Like, I don't know who's telling you this, Sam, but you were literally not.

C: Like, I don't get it. I'm so confused. I don't get it. But whatever. Whatever. This is what he believes right now. Sam tries to claim the Bobby’s working on something, but you know, there's nothing really going on there. And Sam tells Dean, "You know I have to stop you." And Dean, I think just reaching for something hurtful, goes like, "You could try. But just remember, you're not all hopped up on demon blood this time." [G: Yeah.] And Sam's like, "Yeah, but Cas is here!" [G: Yeah.] And he is, and he knocks Dean out. Cas looks so beautiful this episode.

G: Love Cas. It is kind of astounding. Like, the thing with Cas is, in this episode, specifically, I think I've realized why I love him so much, and it's because something corny, tired, or played out will be happening on screen, and I can just completely zone out and just look at him. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] I think this may be the case. Oh my god! He looks so good this episode!

C: Yeah. [G: Yeah.] And he had to shave his chest as a fa- Was he a father of two at this point?

G: I think he was a father of zero, perhaps.

C: Yeah. Well, this father of zero had to shave his chest at some point.

G: Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful experience. And he, like, takes off his tie. Ah, lovely! Also, regarding the saying to Sam, that like, you know, as a way to hurt Sam that Sam's going to drink demon blood again or something-

C: Well, just that he can't stop him because he's not strong enough without the demon blood, yeah.

G: Yeah, I think one of the more distinct ways that these actions have been discussed in this episode is like, how every single person he interacts with, he like, specifically, like, Sam, Dean, and Bobby- Sam, Cas, and Bobby.

C: Ohh, yeah. He was trying to- it's the "You're not my dad." It's the demon blood thing for Sam. [G: Yeah.] But for Cas, it's like, “Oh, you wanna fuck me? You wanna fuck me?”

G: Yeah. Which I think is true, and I find it incredibly amusing that this is how he goes about it. [C: Yeah.] And with Sam, it's kind of straightforward. With Bobby, it's also straightforward. It's also just kind of stupid. Also, the thing Bobby pulls is incredibly funny. [both laughing] Bobby really said, "You're suicidal? Well, I'm about to kill myself!" [both laughing] He is so real for that.

C: [laughing] Should we be laughing less?

G: I think we should be laughing less. But literally, I was like, "This is a typical-" like, when you're like, a late teenager, and all of you and your group of friends are so miserable, this is like, a typical conversation you have. [C laughs] It's so funny! And with Cas, you know, like, it is a taunt about, like, what you already sacrificed. Because I think Dean does understand that Cas did all of this because of some fondness for Dean or some trust to him or something, and the way that all the characters react to it is also so wonderful. Like, the way all the characters react to it is, Dean goes, "Bobby, you're not my dad," and then Bobby goes, "No, I have treated you like a son, so you don't get to say that to me." And the way Sam reacts to it is, "It doesn't matter to me if you think that way, because I still trust you." [C: Yeah.] Which are like, similar ideas, but they're also, like, they have such distinct differences that I think make them both interesting on their own right. And with Cas it's like, “Okay, fine. Fuck you, then!” [C: Yeah.] [laughs] Which I also love. And like, yeah, I think it's- This is what I'm saying. Like, the episode does something, and it does it so clearly, so distinctly, and so well. I'm like, impressed! Oh my god! Jeremy Carver, maybe he had it in him this whole time.

C: Maybe he did.

G: Now they're in Bobby's place, and Dean is just like, complaining and being like, “Oh, what the fuck are we doing here?" Also, like, this did remind me of that one post that was like, "Why the fuck do we say 'screwing pooches'? Like, that's so stupid," [both laugh] and it is stupid as fuck, and Dean says it this scene. [C: Yeah.] And yeah, he's just complaining. And he's like, obviously doing it to piss everyone off. And Bobby goes, "Dean, you're not helping,” and Dean goes, " Yeah. Well, why don't you let me get out of your hair, then?" [laughing] is that a dig on Bobby being bald?

C: [laughing] I don't think so, but-

G: Bobby seems so offended. He's like, “What happened to you?" Is that like-

C: I mean, I think he's just offended because [laughing] what Dean's saying regarding like, you know, like, "Let me go say yes to Michael," but you know what? Dean did make a bald joke two episodes ago. Maybe this is who he is now.

G: Yeah. Also, I mean, we've never seen Bobby's hairline, I feel like, except for when he was dying or something, right?

C: Yes?

G: Like we've seen his hairline once, so it must be a point of insecurity.

C: We also saw when he was being an FBI agent in that suit in the- 3.01.

G: Yeah, bit difficult to hide it if you're not wearing a cap.

C: He should've worn a top hat.

G: He should have. Dean's still complaining. Bobby reiterates their point, which is that "We've got to save as many people as possible, and you let that the Apocalypse happen, that's not going to be the case." But Dean's like, "Well, whatever, man. You can say that. But if it all goes down and it all goes to shit anyway, even worse than what it would have been if I didn't say yes to Michael, that's gonna be on me.” And Bobby goes, "You can't give up, son." [C: "Son."] [both laugh] Corny as hell. Is that mean? [C: Maybe.] And Dean goes- [lauhging] Yeah, it is because-

C: "[British] You're not my father!"

G: "[British] You're not my father!" [C laughs] "And you're not in my shoes."

C: Bobby opens his drawer, and he pulls a gun out, pretty deliberately sets it on the table.

G: And he takes a bullet out, single one.

C: - of his pocket, puts it on his desk. Both Sam and Dean look pretty shocked. And Bobby explains that, like, “This is the bullet that, every morning, I think about using to kill myself. But I don't do it. I never do it. You know why?" And then he shouts - I don't want to do the shouting - "Because I promised you I wouldn't give up!" which, I think I'm glad to see a call back to “Curious Case” like that [G: Yeah.] 'cause I feel like, in some ways, it was like, "Oh, we just set the Bobby mental health thing to rest after that." [G: Yeah.] I mean, we revisited it slightly when Karen came back, when Bobby said, “No, I'm not going to be okay.” It's good to see that there's a follow through to that.

G: Yeah. And like, you know, the way Dean talked about it, the last time they did it was like, “Let's never talk about this ever again,” or, “I don't wanna hear about this ever again.”

C: Yeah. "Shut the fuck up about this," yeah.

G: And like, the point Bobby is making here is that "I kept that promise," which I think is a pretty good way to call back to that kind of dialogue. Yeah, I love it. Pretty good. I mean, I laughed about it earlier, not like, laughed about it, but you know what I mean. I did laugh about it. [C laughing]

C: Yes, you did.

G: No, but I mean, I genuinely like this scene.. And like, yeah, I like, what it's trying to tell. That like, "You say I can't ask things out of you, but you asked things out of me, and I did it." And it's not an actual rebuttal to that "You're not my father." because he can't rebut that. Like, that's a fact. Like, he is not Dean's father. This is more of a like, "We're on each other's side, and we are family," which I like. I like that it isn't like, “Who's the one who was there when your dad was a deadbeat dad?" And it's removed from the concept of being a father to Dean. It's, you know, "You asked me, and I did it for you. So why don't you give me the same respect? Why don't you give me the same- why don't you reciprocate this thing that I did for you?" which I appreciate. I like that.

C: Yeah. And it was established in the Karen episode that Bobby's one of the reasons that Sam isn't saying yes, so like, yeah. They didn't really bring up Dean in that episode, right?

G: What are you talking about?

C: In the- shit, I forgot the name of the episode. But he says "Death did this to me because I'm one of the people keeping you from saying yes to Lucifer," but he's talking to Sam, only. [G: Yeah.] But yeah, I guess it's been established that Sam and Dean are the people keeping each other from saying yes, and then Bobby's a bonus for Sam, but he is also a bonus for Dean. [laughs]

G: As soon as Bobby finishes this part, Cas goes into heat part two or something. [both laugh] He's like, “Something's happening." He's hunched over. He's in pain. And then he just disappears. And I love the effect that they do, which is that they throw paper around the room every time Cas appears or disappears. Love it. There is this honestly beautiful scene. And like, some shots of it are a bit wonky, the ones that are very obviously CGI. But otherwise, I think it's quite nice, and it's quite nice, a different look for the episode, which pretty much a lot of it is set in Bobby's place. But now they're like in a- is this a woods? I don't think it's woods, necessarily. But it's large green space, and it has become flattened, just like in 4.01, but now, in a different way. And there's so many trees fallen over, and there is a thing on the ground that Cas is like, "What the fuck is that?" And Cas goes forth and tries to touch it, but then he gets attacked. A wonderful fight scene ensures. Every time Cas has a fight scene, [laughs] it's so wonderful. [C: Yeah.] And I feel like either Misha Collins got better at the fight scenes versus in Season 4, or they got better at shooting it. They got better shooting around him or something. But the choreography itself is also really good. Like, this is the iconic blade flip. [C: Yes.] You know the one. Everyone knows the why.

C: Yes. The twirly-twirl.

G: Yeah, angel blade twirl. And yeah, there's just this really fun bit where- does he have two angel blades at this scene?

C: No, I think he nabs one from the first person he kills.

G: So he's fighting one of the angels, and then somebody goes up to him from behind, and then he uses that angel’s angel blade to shoot the angel in front? I'm not particularly sure, but it's pretty cool. And yeah, this is also the one where he brings a guy down, and we see a bottom-up shot of Cas stabbing a dude. [C: Mm, yeah.] Which is also iconic. Honestly, love Cas! [C: Yeah.] And I only say this-

C: You've never said this before. [G: Yeah.] Do you wanna pause and discuss this? You- you love Cas?

G: Yeah. Every other time I've said it, I was dishonest, [C laughs] but now, I am saying it honestly. [C: Real.] Love it. It's so fun to see him fight. And I don't know what the logic behind it is. I have given it some thought because I don't really feel like that kind of joy seeing anyone else fight in the show, you know what I mean? Like, it's just a Cas thing. Maybe I just love him differently.

C: I think it's because his trenchcoat swishes. [G: True.] If he was just in a regular suit and doing this shit, I would be yawning.

G: Yeah. It's the airflow, the movement, even. Also, later on, right, like, Dean calls Cas "nerdy," and that scene did send me on a thought process of "Wow, Dean is really hung up on this idea of Cas as nerdy or dorky or something." And I do wonder- Because I had the thought, if Dean- If this was any other person, and that person was nordy or dirky- [laughs] "nordy or dirky." [both laugh] Dorky or nerdy, as Dean puts it, would he be- would he act as endeared about it or as kind of funny about it? 'Cause when he says it about Cas, it's always like a "Haha!" but kind of in a "Ha, look at this guy" kind of way, and not particularly negative, specifically. And I think what it is is with Cas, there's the benefit of the doubt that, like, “Oh, he's like that because he's an angel, and he's like, not exposed to the world. So it's okay if he's kind of weird.” But if you're a person who grew up in the world and you're weird, kill yourself or something. [laughs] I feel like that's Dean Winchester's perspective. You understand what I'm saying?

C: Yeah, no, I do know what you mean.

G: And hen I applied that thought to me thinking that Cas’s fight scenes are better than everyone else's, [laughs] and I'm like, "Do I only think this because I think he's like, dorky, so when he fights, it's like, super fun versus when everyone else does it"? Do you think I think that way? I don't think I do but, like, what if?

C: I cannot tell you what goes on in the recesses of your own mind, Grey.

G: Well, you've tried before. [both laugh] [C: That's true.] So try a bit harder now.

C: Is it the fact that he's skinnier?

G: Really! [laughs]

G: I don't know. Is it?

G: I don't think of Cas as skinny.

C: Well, do you view early seasons Cas as like, I don't know, buff-

G: Scrawny or whatever?

C: Yeah, scrawny or something.

G: You know what? It may be a part of it that his clothes are just bigger, so he looks smaller in them. He is unlike a lot of the other characters we see, I think, fundamentally, that is what it is. There is a novelty to it just because he's different and he stands out. I mean, people have talked to hell and back about Supernatural and masculinity, but I really- [laughs] like, I love Cas [C: Yes.], and I have no idea how to word it other than like, that, like, I love him. You connect the dots. You can probably connect the dots, like we say. [C: Yeah.] People have talked about masculinity in Supernatural, but I love Cas. Yeah, love him.

C: Yeah. What was the post that's like, "Dean will tell Cas that if he sees a mouse, he has to eat it, and Cas will do the scrunchy face and go 'Dean, why?' and Dean will go, 'Haha, buddy! You're soo crazy! You're so crazy!'" you know that post?

G: Yeah, I love that post. Let's reblog it. [C: I do also, yeah.] "And Dean will eat three mice in a row just to prove a point." [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Remember when the scrunchy face emoticons were just a thing that we did all the time because of Cas.

G: Yeah, is it the one where it's like, the more than sign and then the flat thing-

C: Yeah, the great than, then a period or like an underscore, and then a less than sign, yeah.

G: Yeah. That is the Casgirl experience. It's feeling that way.

C: Yeah. [laughs] I love him. Anyway-

G: After the fight scene, he goes back to the weird thing on the ground, and it's like the dirt is giving, and there's a hand that rises up, and Cas pulls the hand up, and the hand is in fact the hand of Adam Milligan. He's back!

C: So true. He was never here.

G: This is true. His spirit is back, like as in- No, that's not- Well, his name's back? [C: Yeah.] His idea is.

C: Yeah. There we go. A guy who looks like him is back both times.

G: Yeah, the actor is back, even.

C: Yeah, Jake Abel is back.

G: It's so funny. This is like, the last season we see him until Season 15. [laughs] [C: Huh.] And then he's gonna have a fucking a archangel boyfriend. Good for him, honestly.

C: Good for him, honestly.

G: Honestly, that's like, one of the more interesting things Supernatural does in the show, I would say. Like, Michael and Adam. And I do think they do it rather well.

C: Tenrose wishes. Or I guess Ninerose is when she was 19 and he was hundreds of years old.

G: Oh my god, that's so funny. I thought you were talking about Rose from Titanic, [laughs] and I was like, "Why the fuck would Jack and Rose do all of that?" [C laughs] At no situation should they be doing all that.

C: Yeah. Adam died when he was 19, right? Yeah? [G: I think so. Yeah.] Yeah, slay.

G: And then he spent- how many- Wait, Sam spent 600 years in the cage, right? Like, that's the-

C: I thought it was 200.

G: He spent 200 years in the cage?

C: Yeah, it was hundreds of years, but it was only like, a month or some shit in the present day, right?

G: No, exactly. Dean is entering Lisa's house, and Sam’s already there! [C laughing] Like, it was like, a week, maybe. [C laughing] Hilarious. And it's 600 years or something.

C: So Adam was in there for like-

G: So, like, maybe Adam was also a millennia years old at that point. [C: True.] Probably more, honestly. Maybe he is was in the cage longer than Zachariah has been employed. [C: So true.]

C: So we're back to Bobby's, and we're seeing what Dean under surveillance is like, 'cause Sam's standing in the way, crossing his arms, and Dean has to ask him to move to get a beer from the fridge. And Cas appears. More paper blowing in the air. And it's Adam. That's him. He's there. 'Cause we don't see his face until this moment, when he lays him down.

G: Yeah. And also, like, he's dirty. He has literally a lot of dirt on him, which is a fun look. [C: It is.] How did he- How did he like-

C: Not decompose? I mean, how did Dean not decompose?

G: No, but like, how did he lift himself out of his grave?

C: Yeah, I mean, the dirt probably wasn't packed at that tight?

G: This is true, or maybe Zachariah gave him a boost, more than Cas ever did for Dean, honestly.

C: Real. Cas says that angels rose him, and they need to hide him now, so he does the ribs sigils.

G: Angel ribs thing, yeah.

C: Yeah. Sam and Dean are no longer special. [G: This is true.] Adam wakes up, and he's like, [G: Gasping for air, yeah.] “What the fuck's going on?” Yeah. And Dean goes, "You're gonna find this a little- a lot crazy. But we're actually your brothers." [laughs]

G: So corny!

C: Yeah. And Sam goes, "It's the truth. John Winchester was our father, too." [G laughs]

G: Literally, he says, "John was my dad, too!" So true. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. But Adam knows who they are because the angels already talked to him about this, specifically Zachariah. He drops that his Heaven was that he was making out with this girl on prom night. Dean makes a random comment about, "Did you get to third base?" which feels very out of place right now.

G: And also, in the middle of this, he gets cleaned up.

C: Oh, yeah, yeah. He took a shower. Adam did.

G: Yeah. I know, that line is so odd because it's like, for a moment, literally just this moment in the episode, Supernatural is like, "Nah, we need to go back to our roots, man." [C laughing]

C: Yeah, like, "Dean may be suicidal, but like, don't worry. He is also a sleaze forever and ever."

G: Yeah, "He's still in there."

C: So angels told Adam that he was "chosen to save the world," and he says, kind of cockily, "Oh, me and some archangel are gonna kill the devil." And he says that he's Michael's sword or vessel or something, and everyone in the room is looking at each other like, "What the fuck, man?" [laughs]

G: Also, I love Adam's accent. He's from Minnesota, right? It's pretty fun. I love it. [C: Is he?] I think so.

C: Huh. I never noticed anything about his accent, but I'm sure-

G: Yeah, but that's because you never pay attention, Crystal.

C: It's true. [G laughs]

G: Is that so mean? I'm so sorry. It was supposed to be a joke, and-

C: You always- The thing- You will often say things, and I'll be, like, “Haha! That's so funny,” and move on. And then later, you'll be like, “I'm sorry for saying that. That was mean.” And I'll be like, "Oh! Like, Grey meant that with vitriol in his heart?" [G: No!] Like, now-

G: No! What I think is that you're never laughing. Like, I'll say something as a joke, and you'll be like, "Huh." [C laughs] And I'll be like, "Oh, no, Crystal thinks that I actually think that they never pay attention."

C: I see.

G: Yeah. Well, do you? [laughing] [C laughs]

C: Do I?

G: I don't know.

C: It's a good question.

G: I think his accent is- he has some words with some twangs in them that I cannot for the love of god describe. But it's fun!

C: Does Jake Abel have a different accent when he talks normally? If not, we can just see where he's from. He's from Ohio.

G: Okay, I mean, I've never heard him talk, is the thing. Is his name Jacob Abel, then? That's kind of funny. Like, that's kind of real. Good for him.

C: Pretty good, Bible verse-wise, yeah. Oh, ew! He's on Walker?

G: Ugh. Come on, man.

C: [laughing] He also played Edward Cullen in the Midnight Sun audiobook?

G: Love that. Good for him.

C: Maybe not, but yeah. Anyway-

G: Is it bad?

C: What?

G: What do you mean maybe not? Is it bad?

C: Oh, I mean Twilight's racist is all I meant, I suppose.

G: Oh, yeah. He was in Walker for 8 episodes. [both] That's a lot of episodes. Jared Padalecki, you need to quit it. And he did! [laughs] Happy cancellation to Walker.

C: Hell yeah. Dean goes like, "Well, that's insane," and Cas goes, "Well, actually, maybe they're moving on from you." [G: Love that!] You know.

G: Love the phrasing of it. "They're moving on from you, Dean." Ah!

C: 'Cause Adam works 'cause he's part of John's bloodline, and he's also Sam's brother. And Cas goes, “Oh, I think they did this because they're desperate. Maybe they wrongly assumed Dean would be brave enough to withstand them.” [laughs] God! Cas is such a bitch this episode.

G: He has his arms crossed over his chest, [C: Yes!] and he's like, he's looking down from his chin. You know what I mean? He's lifting his chin up a bit to look at- the side-eye Dean. Love it!

C: And then, you know, the line everyone knows. Dean goes, "Alright, you know what? Blow me, Cas."

G: Love that. Is that homophobic? Kinda is.

C: Kinda?

G: I'm not sure if it's-

C: I mean, [laughing] I feel like he would say it somewhat of any gender? [both laughing]

G: Like, you think he'd tell a girl, “Okay, blow me”? I don't think he would because he'd understand the sexual implication of it, but towards a man, it's demasculinizing, whatever. You know what I mean. It's like the way someone would be like, "Oh, I'm gonna make you-" well, that's also a bad thing to say to a woman. [laughs] Yeah- You know what I mean.

C: It just feels like a variation on "bite me."

G: Yeah, but it's “blow me,” specifically. He could have said, "bite me."

C: Yeah. Yeah. I guess for me, I just assume that it went more sexual to show he's more angry, like how "fuck" is worse than a different swear word, but I think it could have homophobic implications.

G: I mean, later on, when he tells Cas, “Oh, the last time someone looked at me like that, I got laid."

C: That's- that's something for sure.

G: But that's part of the plot. [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to describe it. It's like, he's like, actively taunting Cas at that point. I think it is a homophobic intention, but I don't think it's supposed to count in our count later. You know what I mean?

C: Hm. Sam is the one who goes like, "I don't believe that this is a real thing," and he ends up being right, which is a very rare Sam W, where he just says that, "You know, after everything about, like, destiny and all that shit, I don't think the angels would have a plan B. That doesn't seem right." [G: Yeah.] And Adam, who I really like, goes like, [G: "Okay!"] "This has been a really moving family reunion, but, um, I've got a thing, so-"

G: It's so funny, too, because right before he says that, Sam's lines, he was acting a lot more like, you know, like aggrieved than he usually does. Like, he's louder, and he's like, "What?" like, he's more dramatic about his like, talking. And so when Adam says that, [laughs] it's just even more funny because, like, Sam isn't even like this all the time. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, anyway, Sam- like, Adam already is standing up, and Sam's like, "No, no, no, no, sit down." and you know what? If I was Adam, I would have also sat down because, like, these guys are terrifying, [laughs] plus they have, like, an all-powerful angel in the back. So like, maybe I will just sit.

C: Sam starts [laughing] going into bad acting era. [G: So true.] Or it's Jared Padalecki starts going into bad acting era. Really delighted by how he delivers, "The angels are lying to you! They're full of crap!" [both laugh]

G: You know, it's so funny, in the transcript, they italicize "lying." [laughs] Like, they also were like, "Jared's really acting this time! He's talking in italics and everything!"

C: Adam's like, "Uh, no, they're fine, 'cause they're angels? Hello?" [G: Hewwo!] Love this guy. And Sam brings up that the fight would kill half the planet, and Adam goes, like, "Well, they said the fight might get pretty hairy, but it is the devil, right?" Like, very straightforward, simplistic answers to everything, [G: Yeah.] and just very tired of Sam and Dean's shit. 'Cause Sam's like, "There's another way." and Adam's like, "Great, what is it?" [G laughs] I don't know. It's a really fun dynamic in the room because both Adam and Dean are like, being very antagonistic towards, like, the Sam and Bobby duo, who aren't even working together. [laughs] Bobby's not talking, actually. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] Yeah, 'cause Dean piles on with, "Um, we're working on the power of love?" and he's like, "Mm, that's not going good." Like, it's just very fun [G: Yeah.], the levels of like, being an asshole that are happening here.

G: This is so true.

C: And Adam tells him to give one good reason that he should listen.

G: "[not sure what accent this is] Because we're blood!"

C: And Sam, fucking poisoned, absolutely poisoned from the Supernatural well, [G: Literally.] goes, "Because we're blood!" [G laughs] And Adam says, "You've got no right to say that to me," which, like, real. Correct. [G: Yeah.] And Bobby pipes up for the first time in five minutes [G laughs] and goes, "You're still John's boy." And Adam goes like, "No! [G: Nuh-uh!] Like, John was a guy who took me to a baseball game once a year. I don't have a dad." Slaycation. [G: Yeah.] And he says that the only person who's his family is his mom, and the angels promised that he could see her again. Well, maybe you really loved your mom, you would be soulmates, and you would see each other in your heavens. Have you thought about that, Adam? Like, think about it.

G: It's also so wild to me that, like, John showed up once a year, and like-

C: [laughs] There was always a baseball game on. [G: No, no, no-] He was like, tracking a certain team's games.

G: I'm pretty sure there's baseball everywhere, maybe. Maybe that's not true. I don't think that's actually true. I don't know how US sports works.

C: I don't think that like- if it's just like, the stadium closest to Adam's house, I don't think there's like [G: Always.] a game on every day.

G: Yeah. I mean, he probably comes around the same- I mean, didn't ghoul!Adam say, like, it was his birthday, specifically? So maybe his birthday was like, [C: Prime baseball day.] a particularly baseball-y season week.

C: Yeah, I don't know how sports work.

G: Yeah. I know how the NBA works, but that's it.

C: Yes. And Sam says that if Adam has just one good memory of "Dad" [G: Yeah.], then he'll give them a little more time. And apparently, he does.

G: He's very nice for this. I'd just have left. I do think the conversation Adam and Sam has later is like, incredibly interesting about like, you know, what you want from life based on what you weren't able to have.

G: There's this one moment where Adam is like, eating a sandwich, and he's just watching Bobby, and like, they're kind of facing each other directly. Like, they placed Adam on that seat so that Bobby can watch over him type of beat. Love that. But Bobby turns around to check on some stuff on the shelves. And Adam's like, "Oh, this is my opportunity." So he tries to go out the door, but Sam literally just shows up, and he just shows up. And Adam's like, "Wow, I'm going out for a beer." and Sam's like, "Yeah, hell, yeah. We've got beer at home." as they go drinking, Adam says, "Look, man, I'm not up for it. [laughs] Like, I'm not for this bonding shit." Yeah. "And also, are you keeping me here on lockdown?" And Sam says, "Well. You gotta do what you gotta do!" And he said that John was trying to protect Adam from all of this. And Adam says, "Yeah, well, I guess the monster that ate me didn't get that memo." Love it! [C: Slay.] Love it! And yeah, Adam says that he remembers that. Oh, also, I completely forgot to mention earlier, Adam, like, remembers Heaven. He remembers Heaven, he knew he was dead, he knew he was in Heaven. Isn't that wild?

C: Yeah.

G: I mean, we know in a way, because, like, Ash and Pamela, right? Like, they also knew. But I thought that was like a "they were in the know somehow, and that's why they knew."

C: I don't think Adam knew until after the angels came to him.

G: I think he did. 'Cause he he talked about it like- he was like, "Yeah, I was in Heaven, but somehow, it looked like my prom." He talked about it like, in the moment, he knew.

C: He probably was told he was in Heaven later.

G: You think so? You think that's what happened?

C: Yeah.

G: Mm, okay. Sam says, "Well, you know, Adam, trust me." This is so incredibly [C: Funny as fuck.] condescending, quite insensitive thing to say, but he goes, "The one thing worse than seeing that once a year was seeing him all year." And he does that. Like, he does that voice. He does that emphasis. What an asshole! What an asshole!

C: I mean, I thought he was being really funny, but you and Adam disagree. [G laughs]

G: I mean, I thought it was incredibly funny, but like, in a "Wow! This guy's terrible! He just completely misread the room." [laughs]

C: Oh, yeah. This is not the move, but- [laughs]

G: [laughs] But it's hilarious how wrong it was. And Adam immediately says, like, "Yeah, no. Do you know how full of crap you are?" And he says that their situation was it was him and his mom, who worked the graveyard shift in the hospital. So he cooked his own dinners, he put himself to bed, and he says, "You can say whatever you want about our dad, but the truth is, I would have taken anything."

C: Sam and Dean also cooks their own dinners and put themselves to bed [G: Yeah.] Sam should have said, "I also really only saw John, like, twice a year."

G: Yeah, but he already established that, like, the worst thing is seeing him all year, so like, [both laugh] it's not even true! He didn't even do that. No, but like [C: Yeah, he barely saw that guy.], I think the point that is- the emphasis here is not even really- 'Cause yeah, Sam and Dean did that, but like, they also had each other. They cooked dinner for themselves, but it's the two of them, and then they put themselves to bed, but like, it's the two of them. And I think that is a more distinct comparison than, like, the parenting situation because, as you said, the parenting situation is practically the same.

C: Yeah, at least Adam had his mom, in fact. [laughs]

G: Yeah, like, she showed up in the morning, at least.

C: Yeah, like, every day. Both of them had one parent each, and [laughs] his was better! [both laugh]

G: Yeah. That was the retribution. No, but like, I don't know. I found that interesting that they already talked about John earlier, how, like, Adam was dissatisfied with the situation with John, and I think another way Sam could have connected with Adam here is like, "Yeah, but the thing was, Dad wasn't there for us, too, but I had other family. Like, I had my brother, and he was there for me, and he was there with me, and now that we're brothers, we can be there for you!" [laughs]

C: He does kind of try to go that route right after this.

G: I mean, yeah. He should have gone with it first try. It would have worked better if it wasn't so obviously a second option. I find the comparison extremely interesting. And I think it does emphasize, like, what the point is of Sam and Dean's relationship, like, the foundation of it, which is that, when they were kids, they had a terrible dad, and they had to live with it, and they did that with each other. And I- you know, that's like, that's the touching- that's the part of the story of Sam and Dean that, like, originally got to me and still gets to me! Yeah? Anyway, as you said, Sam immediately goes, "But you're our brother!" And he goes, "Well, if we had known that we had a brother," and Adam's like, "No, you didn't, so." And Sam goes, "We would have found you." And Adam's like, "Okay, well, you didn't." [laughs] Love that. Sam says, "I can't change the past. I wish I could. But from here on out..." and Adam just immediately shuts it down. And Sam just goes, "Oh my god, you're just like us for real. You're a fucking hater. Good for you." [C laughs] I like this scene. I actually really like episode.

C: Sam is finally putting Dean in the panic room. Thank you [G: Yas!] for payback. [laughs] So yeah. And they they do make it very clear that- they call back to 4.21 quite a few times this episode, and I appreciate that. But yeah. So Cas is standing in the hallway outside, just like, glaring at him. And then Dean goes, again, famous line. "Well, Cas, not for nothing, the last person who looked at me like that, I got laid." And Cas just glares harder, [G: Yeah, he smolders, yeah.] and Dean, like, throws him a wink. Do we discuss this? What's going on here? I mean, we already discussed it. Like, okay, writing-wise, like, Destielbaiting, why is it happening so hard and so raw this episode?

G: Are they Destielbaiting, or are they just going where the story is taking them? [both laughing] I think they're just going where the story is taking them.

C: I don't think they are.

G: But I do think they are!

C: Explain this.

G: Like, I don't know. [laughs] I can't explain it. It's just vibes. I feel like they've been taking it where it ought to.

C: I mean, I think the way that it gets ramped up is like, kind of surprising.

G: You think so? Mm. Yeah, I think I see your point.

C: I think a lot of it happens this episode. [laughs] [G: Ooh.] Like, too much of it happens this episode.

G: I think what it is is that, like, in this episode, they try to hammer down the relationships. Like, Dean and Bobby, Dean and Sam, Dean and Cas, into their fundamentals. And this is the, like, [laughing] fundamental for Dean and Cas. [C laughs] Not these lines specifically, but this specific dynamic. For this line specifically, I don't know. Actually, maybe you're right. Maybe this is queerbaiting in all the ways that we know it.

C: And some that we don't.

G: What do you think?

C: I don't know. I don't know what's going on here.

G: Okay, I take back everything I said. It is a weird conclusion to get to. [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Because it- I don't- Okay. Let's think-

C: "The most hurtful things that I could say to Cas to like, put him off and make him angry at me and leave me alone, is-"

G: - is flirt with him.

C: - "'You wanna fuck me.'" Yeah.

G: Okay. Instead of thinking this through logically, let's do it the other way. What are the other options prior to this episode that you think they could have gone through or gone with?

C: You're weak, you don't have your powers, you're useless to us. I feel like that's the obvious one.

G: Yeah. I think another option- Yeah. Because the idea that I have, which is the basis of this also, they could have just taken it slightly differently, is that "You believed in God so much, and now that didn't pan out, so you're trying to believe in me. But guess what? I also am going to disappoint you." And then that kind of is the vibe, but like, the flirting is not necessary for that. [C: Yeah.] I don't know. I guess there is a certain kind of thought towards an angel where it's like, "You threw away everything you believed in for something as base as lust." Like, there's something to that. But it's not the vibe also. [C: Yeah.] So what is the vibe? What are they doing?

C: I don't know!

G: What's going on inside Dean Winchester's head? If they think- 'cause the writers, like, did they just think it's funny if Dean was suddenly like, "Yeah. You're gay as hell." [both laughing] or whatever they're thinking.

C: I mean, it is. I'm laughing. [both laughing] [G: But like, I can understand-] Okay, Jeremy Carver. What has Jeremy Carver said about Destiel-

G: [laughing] I thought you were gonna say, "What is Jeremy Carver's sexuality?" [C laughing] I don't know what he said about Destiel, but you have to remember, he was the showrunner for 8, 9, 10, 11.

C: 4.15, not really getting anything out of this. 4.20, very brief. 5.03. [laughs]

G: What's 5.03? Ooh!

C: There it is. "Free to Be You and Me" is this guy.

G: Maybe he really- he literally was still down in the weeds! And he was "Bert and Ernie."

C: Yeah, he did think that he wanted to fuck that guy.

G: He was Bert and fucking Ernie. [C: Yes.] I think he was just like, "They have something going on."

C: He was the "personal space" guy.

G: Maybe he was a Destiel warrior from the very beginning.

C: I think he was like a "this guy's kind of gay, parentheses, homophobic" guy from the very beginning, but. [laughs]

G: Yeah. And then, like, by Season 9, he was like, "This guy's kind of gay, parentheses, this is good financially." [both laughing] Yeah. Yeah. [C: He's just continuing the thing, yeah.] You know that one post that's like, "How do kids online always know what slur to call you?" and then someone was like, "They're empaths." [C laughs] This is what Jeremy Carver's going through in this episode. [C: Real. Real.] Yeah. [laughing] And also what Dean Winchester's going through.

C: Real. Release the cut where, instead of saying "maggots," Zachariah says a different word. I believe it. I know it's out there! [laughs] Well, okay, anyway. That line gets delivered. Cas looks really hot this episode. Have I mentioned that? [G laughs] I just remembered the smolder. [G: Yeah.] Anyway, Sam sends Cas off- No, okay, Sam goes like, "Uh, why don't you go keep an eye on Adam?" to Cas, and it feels almost like he's like, trying to spare Cas's feelings, like he's sending him off as damage control partly because he feels bad for Cas. Do you get this vibe?

G: [laughing] I don't understand why Cas is here. His only job was to open the door, and, like, I don't think that standing-

C: No, for real! Like, what was he doing here? [G laughing]

G: Like, maybe Sam was like, while they're going down, he's like, "I don't know why Cas is following me. I'll just tell him to go back up when we get there." [both laugh] And then Dean drops this line, and he's like, "Jesus Christ."

C: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, Cas is down here because he wants to fuck this guy!" [G laughs]

G: Yeah. I think later on, I do find this- I mean, somebody else pointed it out, but like, the trap for Cas was just for Cas. It was not gonna work if anyone else checked up on Dean. [C: Yeah.] So like, Dean was aware that Cas is going to be hanging around there listening to him. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Incredibly funny!

C: Is Destiel, like, kind of real?

G: Destiel is kind of real, but it's also- The thing is like, I know that Destiel is real. I've made my arguments. I've made my points, whatever. If it's happening on my screen, I'm still like, "Am I crazy? [laughs] Am I crazy?" That's what years, years of queerbaiting will do to you, I guess.

C: Yeah. Yeah. They're like, in love. Anyway, so-

G: I don't think they're in wuv yet, but later on, they will be.

C: Cas is obsessed with this guy, and Dean's aware of it, [G: Yeah.] which is very interesting to me.

G: When do you think Dean realized?

C: I feel like people often go the "Dean's so repressed that he doesn't know"-

G: I think he knows. I've made my case, right? I think he knows.

C: Yeah, no, I think he knows already.

G: I think by Season 6, nothing in Season 6 about Dean and Cas makes sense unless Dean knows, is my take. Like, all of the everything that happens there hinges on Dean thinking, "Cas wouldn't do this because Cas loves me." which is kind of wild to me, and that's why the betrayal in that season feels more acute to him because it feels like, you know, he just- It must have felt like he just fundamentally misunderstood what Cas's deal was.

C: Yeah, god. We're gonna do a "Man Who Would Be King" episode.

G: One day, and it's going to be- it's nearer than you think. It's nearer than you think.

C: We've been doing Season 5 for like, forever, though, it feels like.

G: Yeah, but that's because we're terrible at this! [both laugh]

C: We didn't even take a break.

G: Yeah. But I keep on taking like, one week, two week break because I'm doing fuck-all or whatever. [C: True.] And by fuck-all, I mean, I am actually doing things with my life, you guys. [laughs]

C: Yeah, like school and things, yeah.

G: Yeah, mostly lying down, though, [laughing] if I'm being honest. [C laughs] That's also a something. Yeah. [C: Yeah, that's a something.] It's not. Yeah, but it is.

C: It is! But yeah, anyway. But first, we're gonna have to do "Hammer of the Gods." So like, maybe we should just quit. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. I mean, the thing is like, I don't know. Because the thing is, we talked about Destiel a lot already, but I think Destiel this season is nowhere near as distinct or like, important to the plot or like, just interesting as it would be later on, and I am incredibly curious how we're going to interface with it. Because like, that shit- I mean, it has taken me before, and it has taken you before, so, I don't know. I think it's just interesting. I'm just interested in how it would pan out in the kind of conversations we have in a podcast, you know?

C: When is Chuck gonna come back? Do you remember Samchuck? Wasn't Samchuck such a wonderful time?

G: [sighs] It's never going- Samchuck specifically is never gonna be back. I'm so sorry.

C: Aww. Yeah, no, like, [laughs] Chuck's literally gonna have the God reveal in four episodes. [G: Yeah.] [screams] Okay. Whatever. Yeah, so Sam sends Cas off in a way that really feels like he's trying to spare Cas's feelings, [G: Yeah.] which I think is so fascinating, also. But yeah, basically, since Adam's a flight risk, they need to put Dean down here so they don't have to watch both of them. [G laughs] And Dean goes, "I'm not letting him do it." And Sam goes, "Who? Adam?" [G laughs] Literally Adam to is in this episode.

G: He forgot. He completely forgot about that kid, like, literally immediately forgot. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, and he goes like, "I'm not either." And Dean's like, "No, no, no. Like, you don't understand." And Sam's like, "Oh, no, I get you, but I'm not letting you do it either." And Dean's doing his whole guilt thing where he's like, "We got so many people killed, so, like, I have to do this so he doesn't." Um, Adam wants to do this so he can see his mommy again, so like, I think it's fine, actually. [G laughs] [G: So true.] Dean lists the people that they got killed, [laughing] and he says that Mary is a person that they got killed, [G laughs] which I think is hilarious. She made that demon deal herself. I guess he's like, "We couldn't save her when we went back in time"?

G: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's it at all. I think it's just like, "Fundamentally, it's our fault," which it isn't, like, at all.

C: Yeah, "We should have killed ourselves in the womb." [laughs]

G: Yeah. [laughs] That's literally what they said in like- [laughing]

C: [laughing] Yeah, that is what they said a few episodes ago. [G: Yeah.] Yeah. He mentions Jess to hurt Sam's feelings, and we see him flinch on that one. [G: Yeah.] He mentions Jo and Ellen. He doesn't mention Ash and Pamela, even though he literally [G: Dude, they literally just saw those two.] them like, two episodes ago! Dean goes, " I'm tired, man. I'm tired of fighting who I'm supposed to be..."

G: [laughing] Wow! "This is me, this is real."

C: "... Bisexual." But yeah. So anyway, Sam goes, "Well, do you think maybe you could take half a second and stop trying to sacrifice yourself for a change? Maybe we could actually stick together?" And Dean goes, "I don't think so." I really like a lot of the acting choices this episode where, like, Dean just refuses to really engage in certain things, but like, just in a very giving up way. I don't know. I like the way this was delivered. [G: Yeah.] And Sam goes, "Why not? Dean. Seriously, tell me. I- I want to know." And I also liked how that line was delivered. He is being like- He's like, "I'm deliberately putting down the anger. Like, can we just talk?" [G: Yeah.] Like, it's nice. And then Dean says [G: "I don't believe."] some words. [G: Yeah.] "I don't believe." and Sam goes, "In what?" and Dean goes, "In you." And I wish they'd worked up to this a bit more.

G: Yeah? I mean, yeah.

C: Or rather, okay, what he says next is-

G: Because the thing is-

C: - "I don't know whether it's gonna be-" yeah, no go first.

G: The thing is like, with the Bobby thing, we know that Dean is saying that to hurt Bobby. You know what I mean. Like, it's coming from a place of-

C: "He's like a father to us!" happened just then.

G: Yeah. And like, towards Cas, it's more believable that Dean would be pissed at Cas, but it's also like, we understand that he's pissed specifically because of this. Like, he's pissed specifically because of what's happening right now. So it's also understood that it's not personal. This one is like, Dean could have just said this. He could have just said this, and I'll be like, "Yeah." Even if he's not lashing out, I'll be like, "Yeah, that's his fundamental belief." You know what I mean? So like, it does feel at odds with the other ones that feel quite situational.

C: Wait, do you think he doesn't mean this?

G: I think that is like, the juxtaposition that is set between this scene and the others. That it's very easily believable that he just means it.

C: I think he does.

G: Yeah. That's what I mean, like, it's the only scene that you would solemnly believe it to be true versus the other ones. Yeah.

C: Like it's 'cause it's prefaced with Sam being like, "Can you be honest with me?"

G: "Can you be honest hwith meee?" Yeah.

C: Yeah. Exactly like that. But okay, what Dean says is, "I don't know whether it's gonna be demon blood [both] or some other demon chick [both laugh] or what, [G: What's the "what?"] but I do know they'll find a way to turn you." "I don't know if it's demon blood, some demon chick, other demon-related paraphernalia... [laughs] a demon rubber chicken..."

G: No, he's like, "Demon chick or other genders of demon." [C laughs]

C: The thing is, if Dean's gonna be pissed at Sam and not trust him, I'd say after 5.16, it should be about what he saw in 5.16. Like, I think that the demon blood callback feels a little late. [G: Yeah.] Like, "You may say you want us to work together and all of that, but like-"

G: Yeah. "I know that's not what you are, like, fundamentally."

C: "- how can I believe you wanna be a team when all your best memories are-" Yeah.

G: Yeah, you're not a team player.

C: Yeah, "In your fundamental nature, you want us to be apart so like, [G: Yeah, "You want to be away."] why would I believe that us sticking together will make us stronger," blah blah blah. Like, I can see that. But like, I feel like Sam's proven time and time again that, like, the demon blood thing is like- he's good. [laughs] Like- [G: Yeah.] I don't know. And I don't think Dean has expressed too much- Okay, I guess the last time we interfaced with this was in "My Bloody Valentine," where Dean is pissed at Sam about the situation. So like, sure? And like, it's not like what Dean saying has to be rational. It just has to be what he believes. [G: Yeah.] But I just feel like it hasn't been shown to me that this is Dean's deepest belief that's leading him to do these things because the episodes leading up to him making this choice to say yes to Michael have not been related to demon blood in any way.

G: I think what would have been- 'cause you can use this exact words, just remove the "demon blood and other demon chick." [C laughing] You can say, "I don't know what's it's what it's gonna be." And you can list things that are outside of the demon brand.

C: Yeah, maybe Lucifer will let you get into Stanford again!

G: Yeah, maybe you pass in Yale Law School or something. [C laughing] Like, I don't know.

C: Maybe Lucifer will invite you to Thanksgiving dinner with his father, God! [G laughs]

G: I feel like no one can turn that down, though. Like, Sam would definitely not turn that one down. That's unfair.

C: Yeah. "I don't know what it's gonna be. A weekend that you can eat Funions and have a dog, [G laughs] or-"

G: Yeah, Sam, what if you hit a dog with your car, and then you bring it to the vet, and the vet tells you to keep it?

C: And the vet is a hot woman?

G: A hot woman?

C: But yeah, literally, just take out the "I don't know whether it's gonna be demon blood or some other [laughing] demon chick." What a funny fucking sentence!

G: I think also, if you just said, "I don't know if it's gonna be demon blood or what," like, I'll be like, "Okay."

C: [laughing] Yeah, but when you're establishing the demon part-

G: The demon brand, like it's the brand name "Demon," like, okay. [both laughing] What if they give you a bag of Funions, Sam?

C: What if it's an angel chick, Dean? Have you thought about that? They want Sam to say yes too.

G: Yeah. What if they give some a pack of Funions and Dr. Pib or something? And then that's it!

C: Exactly. I mean, it's a good scene other than that, I suppose. [laughs]

G: Yeah. I do find the next line interesting. So yeah, Sam goes, "So you're saying I'm not strong enough," to which Dean replies, "You're angry. You're self-righteous. Lucifer is going to wear you to prom man, it's just a matter of time." And it got me thinking, if the situation was reversed, and Sam was Michael's vessel, would Sam have said yes? I think he would have. [C: Huh.] Like, the way Dean is painting the situation, I think that's what we're supposed to think. [C: Huh!] Do you understand what I'm asking? [C: Yeah.] Like, I think the main detractor for Sam is that it's Lucifer. Imagine the Lucifer scene where Jess is like, Lucifer, imagine that scene but it's revealed that Jess is Michael and that Michael is asking Sam, "We need to fight the devil, and I need to possess you to do that." Sam would have 100% said yes.

C: Yeah I think especially at that point in the season when he's still so wracked with guilt. He'd be like, "Hell, yeah. Purify me, baby. Let's go."

G: Yeah. I don't think this argument works because it's Lucifer we're talking about. Literally any other argument, it would work, though. So yeah. I think Dean hits on something here. It's just the line previous is like, [laughs] girl.

C: Yeah. I enjoy that, "You're saying I'm not strong enough" thing because the demon blood stuff being brought up is hitting on Sam's old insecurities about that again. [G: Yeah.] Yeah. You're angry, you're self-righteous. Has Sam been doing that recently? Like, he was angry during "99 Problems," but I think for the right reasons, but I guess that's self-righteous.

G: Because Dean was literally gonna say yes and then he did.

C: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So he says that, and Sam says to Dean Winchester, who was ranked number one on a consumer survey of people who would say that to Sam, [G laughs] "Don't say that to me. Not you of all people." [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Truly- that's such a thing Dean Winchester would say, though, Sam! [laughs] [G: Yeah.] I'm surprised you're surprised!

G: It did remind me of, like, in Sam's hallucination, in the demon blood detox episode, where this is something he says to Dean too. "Don't say that to me. Don't you say that to me." [C: Yeah.] And it's like, I don't know. It does touch me, I suppose, the idea that like, Sam just thinks there are lines that Dean as his brother should not cross even though Dean has crossed that line in the past, it's the verbalizing that makes it real. I don't know. I mean, Sam was gonna be a lawyer. Sam must believe in the power of the word. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. This is true.

G: [laughing] That is an incredibly funny to say, especially because I'm also gonna go to law school. [C: Yeah.] Shout out to people who believe in the power of the word.

C: Do you believe in the power of the word?

G: I think so, yeah.

C: Congratulations. But yeah, I don't know. It's the- Yeah, I think it's the verbalizing. It's like the, "Oh, like, you've really, really, really given up." [G: Yeah.] Sam doesn't really have an emotional support network. Cas likes Dean better and everything. [G: Oh, yeah.] He's got nobody- yeah.

G: I think it's interesting that you say that. Like, saying it is like, the sign and semblance of giving up. Because, like, you're right. That is the point of this one. Even if Dean thought it, as long as he didn't say it, then it's not that it's not true that he thinks it's that, it's that-

C: Yeah, he's going to keep trying to make that not true.

G: - he's gonna keep trying, or he's not putting up that concrete line of like, "It's done." [C: Yeah.] As long as he doesn't say it. But if he says it, it's- You're right that I think that "Don't say that to me" is more of a "Don't say that, period, because then it's done. Then it's out there. And you're really gonna say yes for real for real." [C: Yeah.] Yeah. Aw!

C: Agh. Yeah. And Dean goes, "I don't want to, but it's the truth." If you didn't want to, you wouldn't have said it. [laughs] But yeah. [G: Hwat a liar.] Yeah. And he says, like, "You know, since you're gonna say yes, like, Lucifer is gonna start destroying the earth, and somebody has to be there to fight him, and it's not gonna be that kid, so it's gotta be me."

G: Also a line that made me emo because I know how this season ends.

C: Yeah, it is that kid.

G: I mean, it is that kid.

C: But they decided they don't give a fuck about Adam right after.

G: No, the point I'm making is that this season ends with Dean telling Sam like, "I'm here. It's okay. I'm here." when Sam is fully possessed and controlled by Lucifer, and that's what, like, saves the world, and I've already emoted about this before, [laughs] but like, [C: Yeah.] it does get to me that, like, here, it feels like a threat somehow, right? Like, "Somebody's going to be have to has to be there to stop you because you would do a terrible decision." And at the end of it, it was like, "No, someone has to be there for you because you would need someone." and that's a- it's really touching in retrospect. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Yeah. Whatever. Can you believe I actually feel things about Supernatural? [laughs] It's so embarrassing!

C: It's been long, it's been so long, baby, I think you were fireproof.

G: And we still are, yeah.

C: Okay, Adam was dead, though. Like, he was dead. Like, they're not really factoring this into their decisions. Like, he kind of was dead. [both laughing] Like, are we really losing that much if he dies again?

G: Like, you already got this kid killed before.

C: A handful of episodes ago, people were being raised from the dead, and like, they were like, "We're gonna fucking kill Bobby's wife. [G laughs] Like, no people should be raised from the dead! It's over!" Like, but now you're like, "Nooo, Adam needs to continue to live a long life." Like, well, he was also raised from the dead. Like, what's the difference?

G: You know, earlier, when they're like, "Oh, we're going to get killed- We're going to get Adam killed! Who else have we gotten killed?" And I'm like, "Well, Adam. [both laugh] You've already gotten him killed, I think." So, I don't know, man. You can just get him killed again. Like, that's just one person.

C: Like Karen said, "You already killed me once when I was possessed by a demon, Bobby. You can kill me again." [laughs]

G: Literally. If we're counting it by kills, yeah, that's twice. But if we're counting it by person, you're down one, baby, so it's fine! [C: Yeah. Exactly.] You can beat the statistic up until it shows you the result you want or something. And in this case, that's the result. [C: Yeah.]

G: Sam goes up, and it's just, like, an establishing scene to tell us that Bobby is somewhere upstairs having a bro moment. And Cas is literally just, like, checking up on Dean. Like, literally just going downstairs, listening in a bit.

C: Yeah, the crash hasn't happened yet. [G: Yeah.] He's just going down there 'cause he's like, in love with that guy or something.

G: [laughing] I think he is! Incredibly funny. But yeah, he's like, hanging around. And he's actually, I think, about to go upstairs.

C: Okay, he also has a lot riding on Dean not saying yes because he gave up so much for it, and he also doesn't want the Apocalypse to happen, but-

G: No, here's the thing I would say. Let's say first what happens, which is that Cas is like, about to leave or something, and then suddenly, he hears a really loud crash inside the panic room. So he goes over there, and he's calling out to Dean, and he opens, like, the little thing- what's that?

C: The little slat to the window?

G: Yeah, the window thing. And he looks around, but of course there's blind spots, and he starts getting worried because Dean is not responding. So he opens the door and he looks around, and yeah. Dean just goes, "Cas." And then he sigils Cas away. And like, okay, couple of things about this one, Bobby- Like, okay, one, Dean specifically formulates this trap for Cas. This is only for Cas because obviously, the vanishing sigil would only work for Cas. Number two, it specifically requires Cas to come in, which Sam and Bobby would not have done, which, like, again, I don't know which aspect Dean is playing with. Is it like, Cas's naivete, or is it like, "Cas likes me enough that he'll actually be concerned enough to come in"? And I don't know. I find it interesting.

C: He knows Bobby can't make it down the stairs anymore.

G: [laughs] This is true. Yeah.

C: He was just really awful to Sam. So I think he sort of assumes that if anyone's gonna come down, it's gonna be Cas right now.

G: Yeah, yeah, but like, yeah. I don't know. Like, why do you think he thinks Cas would definitely come in?

C: Right. The coming into the room part?

G: Because like, we know in other situations, like, Dean has left Sam in there when he really shouldn't have.

C: Well, didn't they go- They went inside and tied him down when he was like, being flung about the room in 4.21.

G: Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's like a because Cas can't see him. He's like, "Oh, no, he's probably [C: Yeah.] gone or dead."

C: Yeah, just to check if the angels magicked him away or something. [G: Yeah, okay.] I think it's a bit less crazy than we made it out to be earlier. I think it makes sense.

G: I think it makes sense. It's just also fascinating that this is like, Dean's-

C: I think what's crazy is the fact that Cas was already checking on him before the crash. I think that's the part where I go, "Oh, like, he's in love with this guy." [laughs]

G: Yeah, 'cause it also could have been just that "I heard a weird noise. I'm going downstairs." Maybe that was Dean's initial intention. It was like, [C: Yeah, I think so.] "Someone will hear a noise." And it just happened to be Cas who was already there trying to overhear stuff. [C: Yes. Yeah.] Yeah, well, anyway, we established that, like, Sam leaves Adam to Bobby. We see that Adam is in a dream, and he's sitting down, and he's at a playground, and then Zachariah is sitting next to him. And Zachariah says, like, "Yeah, your mom's not coming. This is like, the playground that she left you in once, right? Anyway, she's not gonna be here."

C: [laughing] She didn't leave him there, she took him there. [G laughs]

G: Different meaning, yeah.

C: And it's fun. I like this playground scene just 'cause- Don't Cas and Dean have a playground scene in 4.07 on a bench?

G: Yeah. That's- yeah. Because that scene is about how like, "Look at all these people. This is what we're going to be saving."

C: Look at the beauty and innocence of children and everybody, yeah.

G: Yeah. I mean, I thought- Honestly, I thought that his mom did leave him. 'Cause when Zachariah goes, "Your mom's not coming." I was like, "Wow, this is like, a traumatic experience for like, [both laughing] his mom left him in the park." The point here is that they're withholding Adam's mom from him so that he will do their bidding. Zachariah is saying, like, "Yeah, you're with Sam and Dean. I know. We told you about them, so you must know that-" And then he goes, "You know, they're psychotically, irrationally, erotically codependent on each other." Ugh. [C sighs]

C: I've seen this phrase in too many titles of a blog that I've blocked.

G: I know! Like, you're like, you know, you're like, "What the fuck is this post?" And you go to the blog, and that's literally- It's like, a common thing.

C: It's like, "Oh, the words 'erotically codependent' are in the title. Alright. [laughs] I understand what's going on here."

G: Yeah, it's a phrase that the Wincesties really clung onto.

C: Yeah. I mean, I understand why. It's because Zachariah looked directly into the camera and said, "Wincest is real." [G: Yeah.] [laughs] What an interesting writing choice.

G: [laughs] What is going on in Jeremy Carver's mind?

C: Yeah, he was like, "All homophobia is the same homophobia. Whether or not there's incest involved, like, not my business." [G laughs]

G: Yeah, I do find what Zachariah says to Adam about like, what will happen to him will be, which is that "When things start going down, they're not going to give a shit about you." And that "They're going to save each other, and they're going to save the world, but they're not going to save you, 'cause they don't give a fuck."

C: Well, he says that they would save each other and not save the world and not save Adam.

G: Oh, is it, like- I thought it was like, "They're going to save each other, then save the world," which-

C: No, it's than.

G: Oh! I thought that was quite weird because I was like, "Well, if they're saving the world..." [both laugh] [C: Pretty good! Like-] Like, Adam's kind of part of the world, don't you think? So yeah. I'm literally- This is like the first time it has been revealed to me that what is said there is that. Is it really? Are you sure?

C: Yeah.

G: Okay. Wow! My life has changed completely.

C: As much as it did when you found out I was left-handed?

G: I can't believe that's true. I can, actually.

C: But yeah, Zachariah's argument is just like, "Don't trust Sam and Dean because they don't wuv you."

G: Yeah, "They don't give a shit about you."

C: Which I think is so fascinating. Like, these angels and these Winchesters are like, crazy. None of them are like-

G: In touch with the human psyche.

C: - there's no argument about saving people, about, like, what logically makes sense, like, whatever whatever? No, it's just like, "Do what [G: "Trust me."] the person who wuvs you the most says"? [G: Yeah.] Don't you care about, like, saving the world? Killing Lucifer or whatever the fuck?

G: And like, yeah, I mean, that's the interesting part, really, because the thing that convinces Adam is none of those things. Like, what convinces him to say yes the very first time was that, you know, like, "We need to defeat Lucifer," which I think is like, a completely reasonable ask. [laughs] [C: Yes.] And then with Sam and Dean, it's like, "No, please give us time to figure something else out because the collateral damage is gonna be brutal," and like, he didn't even say yes to that. [laughs] He was just stuck there. He was just on lockdown.

C: Yeah, and I mean, he only agreed to hear them out because he had one good memory of John.

G: Yeah, and like, I mean later on, like, when he goes-

C: I think we're supposed to think that the whole like, "Oh, we're gonna like, take down Lucifer" blah blah blah meant to be sort of masking the fact that what he mostly wants is to see his mom again.

G: Oh, I thought you were saying, like, mascing as in like, it's trying to play up to his like, masculine pride or whatever. [both laugh]

C: No! No. I meant masking with a K.

G: I think there's an aspect of that, too, though. Like, the way he talks about like, "Oh, I'm going to be like, Michael's- This archangel and I-"

C: Yeah, "I'm so cool. I'm gonna be an action hero. But no, I just want to see my mommy!"

G: I don't think it's really masculine pride, but like, there is a sense of, like, pride there. Of like, "I'm going to be useful" or "they need me." And like, I do think it is interesting what happens when Zachariah reveals everything because that's the thing that is most distinct that, you know, like, the things that-

C: The "I'm not actually chosen" thing?

G: "I'm not actually going to do something useful, and also that not only is that true, you're also using me to hurt these people," and it's like, he doesn't love Sam and Dean, but like, there is like, a fundamental aversion to lying, I suppose. [both laugh] And I don't know, I think it's interesting, honestly. But yeah, what convinces him at the end is like, "I'm gonna see my mom, and I'm going to kill Lucifer in this situation." It's not like "We wuv you!"

C: Well, I think the fact that they come back for him, like, he does seem quite touched by that.

G: Yeah. Anyway, Adam wakes the fuck up, and that's it. He's gone.

C: Yeah, alright, so Dean has headed out to where there's a street preacher who's saying that like, "The Apocalypse is happening," blah blah blah. And yeah, no, you're right. It's fun. This is a callback to when- like, what episode was it? When, you know, all the angels have been contacting certain, more niche Christian sects in order to like, have them keep a lookout for Sam and Dean. Was this in 5.01?

G: I think Jehovah's witness was like, in 5.03. That's why- Or like, "The End." In 5.04. That's how Zachariah gets to him. [C: Yes.] It's a nice callback.

C: So Dean approaches this guy, and he goes like, "I'm Dean Winchester. Do you know who I am?" And then he tells the guy to just pray to the angels and clue them in to where Dean is. And the preacher guy- so he starts praying, like, I don't know. Is this really the prayer that you would do for- [G: Yes.] for this specific situation?

G: It's just a basic prayer. Like, if you're like, "Pray," I'd be like, "Our father, who art in Heaven." Like, that is the automatic-

C: It's the beginning of all of them? So like, the beginning of all prayers starts with that?

G: No, the beginning of all prayers starts with [laughs] "In the name of the father and son-" but this guy's not Catholic, so. What are you saying? What are you asking?

C: I don't know. It just felt like a very generic thing to say. I was like, "Did they not do research? Is there not like, a more fun thing to start with?"

G: You know, there's a guardian angel prayer, but that's not really what's happening here. Love that one! It's like something that you teach children. It's specifically a prayer for children. It goes, "Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom his love commits me here, ever this day, be at my side, to light and guard through and guide. Amen!" It's so cute. It's like, you know, when you're a kid, that's what you pray. Very cute. Anyway, he should have prayed that. [laughs]

C: Literally. Anyway, he starts with "Our father, who art in Heaven," and then Cas shows up, and he goes, "You pray too loud." [G: Love that!] And then he knocks the guy out. Cas, you're so hot. Hi! [G: It's- this scene-] And then he does something even hotter!

G: Okay, before we get into it, I just wanna say, because I'm sure we're going to talk positively about this scene-

C: [laughing] It's bad. It's bad that he did that, and Dean's very suicidal. [G laughs] But yeah, what?

G: No, but like, I was just gonna say, like- Was in last episode we were like, "Wow, Sam and Cas are like, in wuv." [laughs] and then the entire thing is Cas being like, "Sam, you're so horrible, and you're like, the fucking devil or whatever the fuck." [C laughs] Anyway, yeah, so just to clarify, to put it out there, me and Crystal 100% support toxic relationships. [both laughing] So that's the situation.

C: It's good that he did this. I take back what I said. But yeah, no, it it is a very- It's an interesting scene. Because Cas- like, at the end of it, Cas knocks Dean out, and then he brings him back to Bobby's house.

G: He doesn't heal him, yeah.

C: And like, yeah. And like, he could have just done that. Like, none of this serves a purpose except that he's angry, and he wants to beat Dean up.

G: Yeah. And the thing is like, you know, it can be also like, he got taken on by the emotion, but he's not regretful at all. [C: Yes.] Like, that's not the point because he keeps Dean beaten up, so not only is he punishing Dean, he thinks Dean deserves it. So yeah. That's the dynamic of this scene. It's insane, though. [laughs] [C: It is.] Yeah. And that's part of why.

C: Yeah, and I feel like Cas doesn't do things that are like, wholly selfish very often. [G: Yeah.] Like I feel like he's always been, you know, working towards, like, the larger goal, etc etc. [G: Yeah.] But here, he really, really loses it.

G: He's just- he's angry for himself. This scene is, he's angry for himself. It's all "I." [C: Yeah.] "I rebelled for this. I gave you everything."

C: Yeah, there's no lofty ideals about like, saving the world or whatever. It's just like, "I can't fucking believe this shit, Dean Winchester. [G: Yeah.] Because of meeeeeeee!"

G: No, I think it's also fascinating that all the arguments round back to that. Like, with Bobby, it's like, "I didn't kill myself because you told me not to." [C: Yeah.] And that's not about the fucking apocalypse. With Sam, it's like, "You don't get to tell that to me." And the the thing that is the thing-

C: Is "I need you to keep me from saying no" and all that.

G: Yeah. And like, the thing is specifically is that he thinks Sam is like, terrible. Like, "You don't get to say that to me." And with Cas, it's like, "You don't get to do this to me," which I think is fun. It's fun. It's fascinating.

C: Yeah, no, I like it. I like it. Yeah, I feel like the only place that this suffers is with Adam because they keep trying to bring him into their, like, way of thinking about things, and the show sort of acts like he's gotten into that way of thinking about things, too, and it's like, "I don't think so. I don't know about that."

G: I think it's a fascinating choice to not have Adam and Dean interact, mostly so that it doesn't mess up the Dean thing. Because the Dean thing becomes kind of the thesis of the episode, Adam's thing is solidly B-plot, and I like that they didn't try to incorporate it somehow. You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] Yeah, which I think makes it stronger, both the Adam thing and the Dean thing.

C: Agreed. Yeah. Okay, so what actually happens in this scene is- God, it's so- [laughs] I don't know if I can talk about it. [both laughing] Do you want- Do you want take it?

G: You know, this whole scene, I was kind of spacing out while watching it, like, watching it this time, and yet I can so clearly visualize it in my head. Like, I can see it happening right now in my mind's eye. But anyway, Cas like, pushes Dean up against the wall, like, really gets close to him, and he goes, "I rebelled for this?!" [laughs] And then he punches him two times, right? And it's like, an interesting cut that they do. [C: I haven't counted, but yeah.] An interesting cut that they do. So it's like- 'cause the way he punches him, it's like, he punches the side of the wall, actually, but like, Dean's face, like, turns. Obviously, it's like, choreography, but they do it twice. Like, they cut in between it in a jump cut, which I think like, the way they do the jump cuts this scene is also really fun. Like, it adds to theenergy of the scene : that suddenly it's like, so fast. Yeah. "So you could surrender to them?!" And then, he tosses Dean on the other side, and he goes- And Dean is going like, "Cas, please!" [C laughs] which is like, the only thing he says when Cas is beating him up. And yeah, Cas goes, "I gave everything for you, and this is what you give to me?!" [laughs] And then he tosses Dean into the like, wire-link fence, and Cas is just looking down with his furious face, and his fist is clenched up, and Dean looks up to him, and his face is bloody, like, as in like, blood is filling out of his mouth, and he has like, a thing by the side of his eye, and he goes, "Do it. Just do it." And we see a close-up of Cas's hand, and he unclenches it, and then he goes to touch Dean's shoulder, and Dean, like, squints away. Like, he really thinks Cas is gonna kill him now. Which, like, I don't know. Obviously, the closest thing we have of this in the future is Season 18, Episode 17: "Goodbye Stranger." And like, that was the moment where I was like, "Oh, god. Yeah, it is like-" I think "Goodbye Stranger" is the most fascinating scene to compare it to. The thing that reminded me of it was like, the flinching away from the hand, the like, squinting your eye, just preparing for death, which Dean also does in "Goodbye Stranger." Like, he really doesn't think Cat is gonna kill him there.

C: And then Cas touches his cheek.

G: Yeah. You know what's so funny? I showed that AMV to a friend who promptly got super obsessed with it. Never seen Supernatural before. And they went like, "Oh, I didn't know that there was like, violence in this show." [both laughing] And I was like, "What's wrong with you?"

C: Yeah, you're right. When they hunt monsters, they put them in, like, a little cage-

G: Yeah, it's just vibes.

C: - and then they go, "Bye-bye, now!" and then they go off in the back of a truck.

G: I mean, I think this friend literally thinks Supernatural is Scooby-Doo. [laughs] Like, wonderful! Anyway, yeah. I think it's interesting to think of this in context of that because of obviously how their relationship evolves, but I guess that's a conversation for 8.17. This time, I don't know what the conversation is supposed to be. I just- I think we have definitely handled some conversations in the podcast not well in the past. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] So like, this one, I also don't know how to interface with it.

C: Yeah, agreed. I don't think I can discuss it seriously because when I was watching it, all I felt was unbridled lust, so [both laugh] yeah. I don't think this conversation is for us.

G: I mean, next episode- I'm not actually sure which episode it is. I think next next, Cas is going to call up and be like, "Wow! I'm still alive. And Dean, you're not that bad. [C laughs] You're not the hollow shell of a man I thought you were" or something. Yeah. And like, I didn't know. I actually don't remember how this is gonna play into that. Like, Cas literally beat him up. [laughs] So like, how's that going to connect later? I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like, you know, we talk quite incessantly earlier about how Dean must know that Cas is into him in some way. Is this Cas also, like, trying to situate himself as like, "I don't like you that much, just so you're aware." [C laughs]

C: [laughing] Incredibly funny thing to do, by that I mean awful, if that was the case. [G laughs]

G: But you know what I mean, right?

C: I understand what you mean, but I think that this beating him up in an alley is fully an act of passion, [G: Aah.] [laughs] so like, if that's what he intended, it didn't work.

G: Yeah, no, but the act of passion, I feel, comes from a place of like, trying to assert power over, obviously, I mean he does beat him up, like, [laughs] no more vivid assertion of power than like, "I can literally kill you right now." Like, yes, I think a lot of it is just Cas is just so so so so mad. But like, I think the unconscious idea that he's trying to affect here is, "Remember that I can do this to you." Yeah? You think so?

C: If that was the case, why would his dialogue all be, "My feelings are so hurt because of what you did, Deaaaan!"? [both laughing] You know, like, if he was trying to show himself as, like, powerful and disaffected-

G: [laughing] Jesus Christ!

C: - I think he'd say different words.

G: [laughing] I needed to stand up. [both laughing]

C: I mean, I can see sort of what you mean in the like, "And this is what you give to me" as like a "You owe me something, and I will take it from you." But like, [laughing] I don't know, man. Maybe. Maybe. Like a "I've been holding back the whole time, but, like, there you go"?

G: [still laughing] Yeah. I'm not actually sure.

C: Yeah, I feel like everything he says is like, showing his belly, like, so much.

G: Yeah. You're right. It is like, showing vulnerability, I guess. Or like, showing the ability to get hurt. [C: Yeah.] It isn't just some vague betrayal. It's like, a personal one.

C: So back at Bobby's, Sam's like, "Holy fuck. What do you mean Adam's gone?" But yeah, he disappeared right in front of them. And then Cas appears right in front of them with Dean, and he says like, "Because the angels took him." which implies that he was like, invisible for a second while they were talking? Like, he showed up and was invisible for a second? Or somehow, he heard.

G: I love that Bobby goes, like, "Don't speak to me like that."

C: Well, he can't pull out the gun again. [both laugh]

G: And he only would say this to Sam. He's like, "You need to respect me as your work superior."

C: As your coworker. Sam goes, "What the hell happened to him?" about Dean, and Cas goes, "Me." [laughs] Anyway! Yeah, Cas theorizes that Adam took him off in a dream, and Sam's like, "Well, where would they have taken him?" And we cut to the green room, which Dean also calls the beautiful room, so you're right that wasn't just from "so says the sword." [G: Hehehehehe.] And truly, I cannot believe this, it's the beer and the burgers again. [G: Yeah.] And Zachariah specifically points out, like, "Oh, I guess you and Dean enjoy the same foods." And it's like, I understand that beers and burgers are popular amongst men in the USA, [G: Yeah.] but like, this just feels more like Supernatural's like, what gets passed down genetically bullshit, [G laughs] you know what I mean?

G: Yeah. Like, Sam would have a salad in there, and that's from his mom. [laughs]

C: Yeah. [laughing] Yeah, no, exactly.

G: It was like, from that time-

C: When Mary's mom was chopping bananas [G: Literally.] in 4.03, that's why Sam genetically eats fruits and vegetables. [laughs]

G: I mean, I did just find it funny that's like, "Imagine a beautiful room" to an American, [both laughing] and it's like, a burger. [C laughing] I mean, that's kind of a corny, tired and played-out joke, but it is also pretty funny.

C: Burgers are pretty good.

G: I love a burger. I've said this before, I'll say it again.

C: Yeah, even though raising cows is ruining the environment. [G: This is true.] This is true. So Adam's digging in. He's like, "Okay, great. Yeah. Bring Michael down. I'm ready to get possessed." And Zachariah’s like, "Um, actually... uh, sorry. No, you're fired. You're not the chosen one. You're here for bait." And he goes, "If it's any consolation, [both laughing] you happen to be the illegitimate half-brother of the guy who we do care about. That's not bad, is it?"

G: He literally said, "You're Adam the Bastard." For him.

C: Yeah, good for him. Adam is upset about this, and he calls Zachariah a son of a bitch. And Zachariah goes, "How do you think I feel? I'm the one who has to put up with that dumb look on your face." Real.

G: He's pretty funny.

C: He is pretty funny here. And he starts explaining his plan,like, completely unnecessarily, I think. It really kills the momentum of the scene that he exposits so much. And then he says, "The tumblers finally click into place." So true! [G: So true.] Yeah, and he says that Adam will still get to see his mom, but Adam at this point no longer trusts Zachariah. Zachariah goes like, "You know what? I keep hearing this," and he does, like, the yapping/talking signal with his hand, [G: Yeah.] and he goes, "But what I want to be hearing is this." and he shuts his hand, and then Adam starts like- [G: Vomiting blood.] gagging and choking up blood.

G: Love it.

C: Love it! What a guy.

G: Dean wakes up. He's now actually handcuffed to like, the bed in the panic room, and Sam's like, "How are you, Dean?" And Dean says, "Word to the wise, don't piss off the nerd angels." He asks how things are going, and Sam was like, "Yeah, Adam's gone. [laughs] The angels have him. He is in the room where they took you" because Cas already checked it out. There's so many people, so many angels, so it's a bit of a Hail Mary, and Dean asks, "What are you going to do?" And Sam says, "Well, for starters, I'm bringing you with." And he starts uncuffing Dean and all that, and Sam says, "There's too many of them, so I can't do it alone. You need to be there."

C: But okay, we see how this plays out, and like, I don't know if they- His argument is like, "There's too many angels in there, and we can't take them alone."

G: It's a metaphor, Crystal.

C: Cas goes in there and he does all of it. Like, you two are standing outside! [laughs]

G: It's a metaphor! Or not it's a metaphor, it's a symbol. He's not actually saying this. He's saying something else, obviously.

C: Are you sure? [G: Yeah.] Okay, fine.

G: Like, he's trying to send a message. [laughs] Like, it's not at all about the fact at all. [C: Okay.] Sorry. Is that a bit condescending? [laughs]

C: [laughs] No.

G: [laughing] I'm gonna start saying shit like, "Water finds its level." [C: Like what?] I'm gonna start saying shit like "Water finds its level." [C: Real.] It's truly astounding to me- I was like, "Ah!" I was like, shocked. My mouth was agape. It was more shocking than anything I read in the actual book, [laughs] like, they should have put that in there. Sam goes, "Yeah, Cas and Bobby thinks it's a good idea- that it's a bad idea, but I'm not so sure." And Dean says, "Well, they're right that it's a bad idea because it's a trap for me to say yes, or it's not a trap, and I'm going to say yes, anyway. And I will. I will do it." And Sam goes, "No, you won't because when push comes to shove, you'll make the right call." And Dean says, like, points out- [C: I appreciate this.] the fucking message, which is like, "If tables were turned, I'd let you rot in here. I have let you rot in here before."

C: Closest thing to an apology, except for when he does give an apology at the end.

G: Yeah. And Sam says, "Well, I guess I'm not that smart." And Dean says, "Why are you doing this?" And Sam goes, "Because you're still my big brother." Man, I love this fucking scene. I mean, it's a pretty self-explanatory scene. It's just so incredibly, I guess, like, touching. Like, before Sam's goes like, "You're still my big brother," my primary thought was like, "He's trying to tell Dean that like, you're still my brother." [laughs] So when he said it, I was like, "My God!" What a wonderful thing for Sam to do. I mean, yeah, obviously, he didn't need to bring Dean there 'cause Cas took care of it. Cas is going to take care of it, whatever happens, because he doesn't want Dean to be there, and he doesn't believe in Dean at all. But Sam wanted to send a message, and it was successful. Good for him.

C: Okay, so they're outside an abandoned warehouse in Van Nuys, California, where the beautiful room is housed. God, I fucking hate when people do exposition lines that are like, "Tell me again why blah blah blah blah blah." Like, can't we come up with something else? Like, aren't we, like, beyond this as a species? But yeah, Sam says, "Tell me again why you don't just grab Adam and shazam the hell out of there." And Cas goes, "Because there are at least five angels in there." Like, Sam literally already said, "There's a bunch of angels," in like, the last scene. Like, we're fine! Cas takes off his tie. [laughs] [G: Lovely.] And he wraps it around his hand. What is that for? Is it still around his hand inside?

G: I think he wraps it around his belly. Am I so wrong it's unreal?

C: It's possible?

G: It's possible that I'm wrong?

C: No, it's possible that he- I mean, either way, either thing that's possible makes the other thing also possible. He says that, you know, he's heading on in, and Dean goes, "Wait, you're gonna take on five angels? Isn't that suicide?" [laughing] And Cas says- [G: "Yeah, but-"] "Maybe it is. But then, I won't have to watch you fail." [both laughing] God! Maybe Cobby is real. Like, the suicide-threatening brothers. He says, "I'm sorry, Dean. I don't have the same faith in you that Sam does," and he pulls out a boxcutter. Sam's like, "What the hell are you gonna do with that?" And we find out eventually, 'cause he goes inside, and honestly, these angels are terrible at guarding. There's like, an angel that comes in. He kills one. And then there's four others, and they start approaching. And, like, one of them is a woman, which is appreciated because, like, from what we've seen, the gender ratio in Heaven is like, completely fucked. [G: Yeah, this is true.] We have Anna, like, that one woman who's dead at the beginning of "Head of a Pin," and this one, and that's like, it so far, right? And like, otherwise, there's like, 50 million random guys in suits, like, all the time. I don't know. It's probably a combination of Supernatural being, like, misogynistic and then like, who's available to do fight scenes as an extra and the gender ratios of that.

G: Yeah. I think it's also just it's not part of their consideration. Like, they don't think about it. 'Cause like, if you thought about it, and you made the intentional point-

C: Yeah, like, so many struggling actors out there who would, like, do anything to be on Supernatural. Like, you'd find the people. So he tells all the other angels, "What are you waiting for? Come on!" And they all close in around him, and he tears his shirt open, [G: Love that.] and he has carved a sigil onto his chest, and then he presses his hand into it, and all of them, including him, get zapped away. Slay. They creep in to get to the green room.

G: It's Dean who like, comes in first and sees Adam, and so he goes up to him, and Adam's like, "No, you shouldn't be here 'cause it's a trap." And Dean's like, "Yeah, I know."

C: Yeah, there's the whole exchange where Adam's like, "Oh my god, you came for me!" And Dean's like, "You're family." [laughs] Yeah.

G: Zachariah immediately shows up. He's like, "Do you really think it would be that easy?" and Dean goes, "Well, did you?" And Sam gets thrown into the room and he's like, dying already, so, love that.

C: Well, the point is that this was supposed to be a distraction so Sam could stab Zachariah in the back with a angel blade, but [laughs] Dean gave the game away by having his fun little line. He's always gotta have a fun little line. Yeah, also, Adam's still been on the ground, bleeding and stuff.

G: Yeah. And they're on opposite sides of the room. So when Dean is looking at the both of them, he looks on on opposite sides of the room. Dean tries to negotiate for Adam. At some point, Zachariah goes, "Wow! Like, I was so impatient. But see, it's all playing out like it should, as the bossman says. You, me, your hemorrhaging brothers," and I thought that was pretty funny. Zachariah is taunting Dean. Dean finally- he plays it a little bit like, "No! Please don't, please don't." And then he goes, "Fine, I'll do it. The answer is yes." Dean goes like-Zachariah hesitates, and Dean goes like, "Do you hear me? Call Michael down now." and Zachariah goes, "How do I know you're not lying?" which is, I didn't- Isn't the point like, you can trick the person into saying yes? [C: Right.] So I was like, kind of confused by this a little bit because, like, the moment Dean says yes, what you would think would happen is Zachariah would just jump into the opportunity. But no, he hesitates, and I'm like, "Huh. Why?" Anyway, Zachariah calls Michael down, and there's this shot of, like, Sam looking at Dean, and it's a close up, and then a close up of Dean, and he really does look like he's going to say yes, and then Sam again, and then Dean, and then he's just looking, and then his face lightens up, and then he gives, like, a little smile, and then a wink. And Dean goes, "Okay, I have a few conditions. There's a few people who you have to guarantee are safe before I say yes." And Zachariah's like, "Okay, fine, whatever." And Dean goes, "But most of all, Michael can't have me until he disintegrates you"! [C: Slay!] : And he goes, "Yeah, he has to turn you into a piece of charcoal." And Zachariah goes, "Do you really think Michael is gonna do that?" And Dean says, "Who's more important to him now? You? Or me?" Zachariah, you know, he starts getting real mad. He goes, "You're nothing but a maggot inside a worm's ass! Do you know who I am? After I deliver you to Michael?" [C laughs] And Dean goes, "Expendable." And Zachariah goes, "Michael's not gonna kill me!" And now, he is near enough Dean, like, he's really crowding into Dean. And Dean goes, "Maybe not, but I am." and he stabs Zachariah, like, through the head so it goes up his chin. Michael is coming, and Zachariah is fucking dead, baby. And it is a fun shot, honestly.

C: How did Dean get the blade? Did Sam drop it?

G: Cas gives it to them earlier. Two of them. Cas gives two blades to them.

C: Why does- Wait, Cas has a third because he kills an angel when he comes in as well.

G: So what you're saying is- What are you saying?

C: Okay, well, no no no, you're right, you're right. Because Cas has his own, and then he killed two angels at the site of Adam's burial, so he had three total blades. Okay, fun!

G: Yeah. I mean, we didn't even talk about the scene when Cas puts down the blade, which is like, I do think that is like, a really fun time to be doing all that. Obviously, they're like, you know, really close to being in danger now, but also, like, giving Sam and Dean this specifically at this moment, especially when Dean's being such a fucking asshole is like, "Wow. Brave move."

C: Yeah, he trusts Dean to not kill him in his quest to say yes to Michael.

G: Anyway, yeah. The Zachariah imprint is- he's kind of propped up sideways, right? against the wall, so the the angel burn mark goes up the wall and then down to the floor on the other side. Very fun. [C: It's wonderful.] Goodbye, Zachariah. I won't miss you, but I was pretty glad you were here. [C: Yeah.] Anyway, Dean tries to get, you know, Adam and Sam out, and Sam leaves first, but then, I don't know. Adam gets left behind for some convoluted reason, and then suddenly, he's inside.

C: Yeah. The room's filling up with light and like, high-pitched noises. Like, Michael is coming for real.

G: Adam, like, turns around and looks at the light. It's gone. And when Dean opens the door again, it's just an abandoned office.

C: They're in the Impala after, and Dean tells Sam, like, "Probably Adam and Cas are not okay, but we'll get them." You guys do not get Adam. [laughs]

G: They don't give a shit.

C: Yeah, and Sam goes, "So." And he says that he could tell from Dean's expression that he was really going to say yes, "So, what changed your mind?" And Dean says like, "The damnedest thing. The world's ending. The walls are coming down on us. And I look over to you and all I can think about is, 'The stupid son of a bitch brought me here.' I just didn't wanna let you down." That was a nice line, I think. [G: Yeah.] I think it brings home the whole, like, what we've been saying about how this episode is supposed to be about the Apocalypse, but it really is just about [G: The people, yeah.] everyone's personal relationships and how they rely on Dean for certain things, so yeah.

G: I did- It's the first time in a while that I teared up at something in Supernatural because I'm just genuinely affected by it, and it's this one. Aw!

C: And Sam goes like, "You didn't. You almost did, but you didn't." And Dean says, "I owe you an apology." Sam says, "You don't." Incorrect, Sam.

G: Well, he does, Sam, so.

C: Yeah. So Dean says that, "I don't know if it's being a big brother or what, but to me, you've always been this snot-nosed kid that I've had to keep on the straight and narrow. I think we both know that's not you anymore." And this is all good content. And then [laughs], he goes, "If you're grown up enough to find faith in me," [laughs] like, okay. Like, this is what did it? Sure, man. You know, "I never trusted you before, but now that I know that you wuv me, like, for realsies, maybe you are smart!"

G: I don't think that's- or at least I didn't read it like that. [C: I know that's not directly what he means.] I read it as like, you know, like, what Sam did is not simply like, put faith in me the way you would, like, an older figure that you're just trusting blindly. Like, the point jere is Sam intentionally, willfully put faith in Dean, even though, like, that was not the best idea or whatever, and that is removed from Dean as a figure in his life, but like, just plain belief in Dean as a person. Like, that's what the point is. It's like, "grown up enough to have, like, this mature, adult understanding of like, what it means to be here and to trust each other." You know what I mean? Like, that's how I saw it. [C: Okay.] And especially because the way Dean puts it is like, "I always saw you as our role. I was your big brother, and you're like, a kid I needed to look after, so like, I didn't trust you as a person. I took care of you as a role," versus, "But now I see that you actually do see me as a person, so I will start treating you outside of our roles as well and see you as not my little brother Sam, but just yourself." And I respect that. I like that.

C: Sure. Yeah, I can learn to... [both laugh] respect that. Yeah, "If you're grown up enough to find faith in me, the least I can do is return the favor." And then he says, like, you know, "Screw destiny, I say we take the fight to them and do it our way," thus returning to the same way every Supernatural episode ended [both laugh] in the earlier half of Season 5.

G: "We're just gonna keep on going," yeah. [C: Yeah.] "We can't give up."

C: And Sam says, "Sounds good. We have to stick togethah!" [G: Togethah, even.] So that's that episode.

G: That's an episode.

G: So, as we've established, and you seem to thoroughly point out, too, we like this episode. Good one. [C: Yeah.] Pretty good one, honestly. Really good. [laughs] Yeah. And like, I don't know, 'cause it's the same conclusion, right? [laughs] Like, as you said, the ending;s literally every ending of a Supernatural episode of Season 5, but because there is like, a change from who they are at the beginning of the episode to now and who they have been throughout the season and now, so it feels more rewarding, even if it's the same shit because it's like, it means something different. And that's fun. That's wonderful.

C: Okay, Best Line/Worst Line.

G: Hmm! I think the worst line, I really don't like when Dean was like, "So you got to third base?" [laughs] Like, it feels so unnecessary, and a lot- I mean, most of the misogyny on this show's pretty unnecessary, but like, that one specifically is like, that's not even the vibe of anything, so like, I don't know man.

C: Yeah. Oh wait, I think Dean saying, "All you've ever done is run away!" [G laughs] [G: Is pretty funny, yeah.] And for Sam to be like, "Yes. And I was wrong! Every time!" Like, seriously engaging in it instead of it being like, "Dean's lashing out and being dumb," I think that was dumb.

G: Yeah, I think the one there is like, Sam's reply, it's like, "My god." [C laughs] Anyway, okay, my best line is, I would say, Dean specifically asking, "What are you doing?" to Sam. Like, "What does this mean? Like, what are you trying to tell me?" And Sam replying-

C: In what scene?

G: In the scene where Sam's telling him that he's going to bring him to the thing. And Sam goes, "You're still my big brother." And I was like, "Yeah. Pretty good. Love that one. Love that one."

C: Wait, I have another worst line. [G: What?] "I don't know whether it's gonna be demon blood [laughing] or some other demon chick or what." God.

G: I have another worst line for Bobby's sake. [C: Yeah.] "You want me to get out of your hair?" [C laughing] So true. [C: So fucking true.] What's your best line?

C: Huh, I mean there's lines that I said that I liked, but they've suddenly fleed my mind. [laughs] I like when Sam asks- The thing where he asks Dean, like, "Why are you actually doing this? Like, I- I really wanna know" or whatever. Like, I like how it was delivered.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Like, during the conversation where Sam goes, "Don't you say that to me"? [C: Yeah.] Yeah, because it's like, "Let's just drop the pretenses, man. Like, for real, for real." [C: Mm-hm.] Well, spreadsheets? Spread those sheets!

C: Yeah. Spread those sheets. Is the third base line enough to count as a misogyny point?

G: I think so, yeah. And also, they don't have any women in this episode, so like, I think we can be more brutal, perhaps, with if they-

C: Yeah, 'cause it's like, they really went out of their way to do that. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Racism.

C: Racism, no? Not that I can recall.

G: I don't think so. Homophobia, I think so.

C: Homophobia, I'd say it counts, yeah. How much?

G: Interesting. You know, 'cause the thing is, I feel like you can argue for a higher one, but the thing is, I feel like there is- I don't know. Maybe a two, maybe a one. I'd say those are the-

C: Yeah, I think those are my thoughts as well.

G: So a two or a one?

C: I think that outside of what happens in here, I think there was like, queerbaiting thoughts [laughs] occurring in the minds of Jeremy Carver and Phil Sgriccia, perhaps. So I think-

G: No, but like, my question is like,when it really starts, you know, like, full-blown queerbaiting, what the fuck are we going to do with the homophobia stat? Like, sincerely, what are we gonna do?

C: I mean, I still don't think the queerbaiting is gonna be like, fundamental to the episode or whatever, right?

G: No, I mean like, I think there are episodes where it's fundamental. But then, like, it comes to the thing where I was talking about in the past, where it's like, I don't wanna label something as homophobia if it's literally just a gay character or something or like, a gay event. [both laugh] [C: Right.] If they're having a pride parade, like, that's not homophobic. [C: Right.] So I don't know. I'm curious about how it's gonna go in the future because, like, you know, there's layers to it.

C: Yeah, I feel like- Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's a difference between, like, just like, "Sincerely, we're just developing Cas and Dean's relationship to be deeper" and like, [G: Yeah.] "Haha, they're gay." Like, I feel like we will be able to tell the difference.

G: To tell. Okay. Well, right now, I'm going for a one. That's my final statement.

C: Okay, alright, I'll go for that.

G: Okay. So IMDb. This one has gotta be high. I cannot think of a reason for it to not be.

C: I mean, people didn't like "Jump the Shark" 'cause I thought they didn't just didn't like Adam. Like, maybe they just don't like Adam again.

G: Yeah. Okay, what's your guess?

C: I don't- I do think this is a good ep- Okay, and it's pretty action-heavy, and that usually bodes well for audiences as well. I don't know if it gets like, 9 or above actually, though. I'm gonna- I'm gonna go with an 8.8, the same as "My Bloody Valentine."

G: Okay, I'm going to go for a- I'm gonna go high. I'm going to go for a 9.2. [C: Okay.] Okay, let's see. Oh my god! It's an 8.8!

C: Hell yeah, baby! What did I say?

G: What did you guess? You guessed 8.8?

C: Yeah.

G: Wow! Good for you!

C: Wow! Good for me, indeed!

G: This one is saying the plot is too compressed. Okay. Who give a shit? [laughs]

C: I don't think that is true.

G: Oh, this one is like, "On a rewatch, I'm kind of frustrated with how the show glorified toxic family love." Yeah, that's true.

C: I mean, I feel like if you're watching the glorified toxic family love show...

G: "I think it was the previous or this episode in which Sam says he was wrong for running away to Stanford. He wasn't. [C: No, true.] I guess the other thing is the who- is the who hero thing"? "Of course it's a show. I'm just pointing things out, necessarily complaining. Not necessarily complaining."

C: [laughing] This is our entire podcast.

G: Don't worry, we can complain for you. It's fine.

C: Yeah. Oh, so true. "He is also a huge hypocrite who says he wants a normal life for Sam, but only if he is dead because if not, he wants Sam tethered to him, like in Season 8." Say that.

G: Oh, this one- You know the reviewer who always puts the Brazilian title in the review? [C: Uh-huh.] They hate this episode, and they have been hating Season 5 in general.

C: They've been hating the angel/demon storylines a lot, yeah.

G: Yeah. I'm surprised people don't like it as much. It's a bit of a Tumblrina episode, perhaps. Is it?

C: What makes an episode a Tumblrina episode?

G: I don't know. It moves the characters instead of the plot, maybe? [C: Yeah.] I did not consider the action scenes. There were- I mean, Cas literally ripped off his shirt [C laughs] and then like, sigiled himself off that thing, so like, I don't know, man.

C: Two people have said like, "Oh, boo-hoo, Adam! You had to make your own dinner Sam and Dean have been through way worse!" [both laugh] which I think is a fascinating attitude to have in two different reviews.

G: [laughing] For a child! For a child! [C laughs] God.

G: we're talking.

G: God! Well, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next time, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 19: [laughing] "Hammer of the Gods."

C: No, do we have to? Do we have to? We could just skip it. Like, really, we can. Like, we control this podcast. We probably shouldn't, though.

G: But we said "every episode, from start to finish."

C: We do say that at the beginning. I say "every episode of Supernatural from start to finish." I promised. [laughs] You're right.

G: Yeah, we'll have to change our intro and everything. I mean, we're already changing our title, probably, [laughs] so like- [C laughs]

C: Probably?

G: No, we're not. But what if?

C: We're not. Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi - like, for real [G: For real, for real.] - at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries - or greetings for our 100th episode! at [email protected]. Again, thank you so much to everyone who's listened to us through this whole time. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

C: Yeah, it's been like, two years of our lives and also your lives, and that's pretty crazy! [G: Yeah.] And it's been nice to do this every week. It's been good.

G: Yeah, it's been! Yeah, see you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[beep]

G: How- how long, timeline, have we been doing this? We started in January 2022, so it's like, a year and a something, right? That's- no no no. It's been two years and something! Damn!

C: January 2022 would be two years and a half, yeah.

G: It took us three years to do one-third of the podcast. [laughing] [C: Yes.] We're gonna be here for a decade! [laughing]

C: Yes. Correct. That is how math works. 2.5 times 3 is 10. [laughs]

G: I always thought that the "six more years" thing is a joke. [C: No.] But it probably isn't a joke because we're gonna be here [laughing] for seven more years, it seems like!

C: I mean, that's also with the fact that we were doing two episodes per week for part of the earlier weeks.

G: Oh, god. But we also quit for a bit. We didn't quit. We took a break.

C: We did quit for a bit.

G: We took a break for a bit. Oh my god, yeah.

C: That's true. It wasn't quitting. We were always gonna come back to you, baby.

G: I'll be eligible for like, [laughs] candidacy for many [C laughs] government positions by the time we finish this podcast. Yeah.

C: Yeah, and you'll never take any of them because of this podcast.

G: Exactly. Just so everyone knows, if the episodes of BABPod ever get taken down, it's because I either acquired a nice job [C laughs] or I've entered the government, which is the worst job of all time. So yeah. [C: Yeah.] It's never gonna be taken down. [laughs] Because I'm never gonna have a nice job [both laughing] or go to government. Well, let's see.

C: Like, a nice job that has like, a background check?

G: Yeah, probably, right? They'd probably be like, "What the fuck is this?" But also, they won't find it because I don't use my name-

C: Yeah, it's not your legal name.

G: Yeah. But like, I'll introduce myself, and I'll be like, "You can call me Grey." [C: Yeah.] And they'll be like, "Why do you have a podcast with your friend Crystal about Supernatural called Busty Asian Beauties?" [both laughing] What if we like, changed it- What if for the 100th episode, we changed the name of the podcast?

C: [laughing] To what?

G: Okay, here's the actual 100th episode thank you to our audience. [laughing] If you have any ideas [C laughing] for anything we can change the name of our podcast to-

C: We're gonna have to redo our logo? [both laughing]

G: - tell us right now. No, we'll have the same logo, but we'll messily scratch out the Busty Asian Beauties, and it'll be a different thing. [C: Alright.] This is like, partially a joke, but if someone recommends a really wonderful name, I'll even consider it, so like, still hit us up.

C: Okay, yeah. [G laughs] I'll consider it. If it's wonderful.

G: Yeah. So it has to be really good. And I think the technique for this is just throw everything at the wall. Just send whatever is on your mind, and if it hits, it hits. Crystal just said, "We should name our podcast Busty Asian Beauties," and I was like, "Haha!" and now we're here, so, you know, anything could happen. [C: Yeah. Yeah.]

I know we have, you know, completely removed ourselves from Rubbish, but [laughs] multiple times, I still think about how when you were brainstorming for the title, which I couldn't participate in because-

C: Yes, because of how you didn't know anything about Good Omens.

G: Yeah. [laughs] And you were like, "What should we name it?" and said, "Why don't we just name it Ineffable Busty Asian Beauties?" [both laughing] And you said no. What a missed opportunity that was.

C: We're gonna change the name of this Supernatural podcast to Ineffable Busty Asian Beauties for the 100th.

G: Exactly! That's what we're gonna do. But we can't. But you know what? If enough people like, follow, and subscribe [C laughs]- What- Should we be promoting the podcast more? What do you think? I feel like we should.

C: This one? [G laughs]

G: Don't say it like that! The beloved-

C: [laughing] The only one we have?

G: [laughing] Yeah! Don't say that about this podcast! Don't talk about her like that!

C: Interesting pronouns for this podcast. Neither of us have those, but it feels right.

G: Yeah, so we can complete the basic trifecta, you know.

C: Yeah. "She" was meant to be Danica, [G: Yeah.] but she left, so.

G: But Danica left, so- [laughing]

C: - assigned female at Danica leaving is this podcast.

G: [laughing] People don't even know that like, Danica really was supposed to- [laughing]

C: Because you edited it out.

G: - Danica really was supposed to be a permanent host in BABPod, like, for real, for real.

C: She was- yeah, she was supposed to join in Season 4, but she quit [laughs] in the middle of 4.02. [both laughing]

G: [laughing] Not even the middle. I think we weren't even in the episode yet. We were still talking the title that is a reference to the-

C: No! No, we were in the middle of it. 'Cause [laughing] she quit because she realized that she didn't have an opinion on what Dean's hair looked like!

G: No! [laughing] No, it was like, not the middle of the episode. What I'm saying is, if it's a two-hour episode, she didn't even make it to the one-hour mark. [C: Fair.] Like, she's 20 minutes in like, "I don't give a shit." [both laughing]

C: Honestly, it's crazy that I was able to pressure her into joining at all.

[beep]

G: God. RPF is so funny.

C: I saw that post you reblogged. What does that mean? [G laughs]

G: The Cockles post?

C: The- yeah. I mean, I went to OP and it said "cockles." What is the three least-ordered menu items thing?

G: Okay. So like, when they first- around the time they first met in like, Season 4, Jensen and Misha-

C: Oh, this happened for real.

G: Yeah. Jensen and Misha went out to like, a restaurant in- Not California. Canada.

C: It's so scary to hear you talk, just use their first names only and together like that. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, it's terrifying.

C: Can you say "Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins," please? Thank you.

G: [laughs] Okay. You're welcome. And I will, in fact, do this. Anyway, so while in the restaurant, they sat at the table and like, it was kind of like, a quirky restaurant, and Misha... Collins [C: Thank you.] was like, "Hey, Jensen Ackles. [C laughing] [C: Thank you.] Let's order some food," and then they called the waiter over, and Misha Collins told the waiter, like, "Why don't you give us the three least-ordered items in the menu?" And then they did, and then they talked about this in a con because they were like, "Oh my god, remember that meal we had? And there was this really weird thing that they served?" Anyway, ten years later, they went back to the restaurant, and they sat at the same table, [C: Yes.] and they took the same angle of the photo, and Jensen Ackles posted it on Instagram, like, "Before and after." like, "Ten years!" [C: Mm.] So yeah, people are like, "That's kinda crazy!" [laughs]

C: Eh. Kind of. I mean, I think the asking the waiter to do that was kinda crazy because that's the items that's gonna take the longest to make because like, none of the ingredients are prepped. Like, it's rude.

G: Maybe, yeah. I'm not sure about how restaurants work. Yeah, anyway, I'm just gonna have this information forever in my brain, and you will too. Congratulations!

C: No, I'm gonna forget.

G: Okay. [C laughs] Yeah, but the thing is, you think you would forget, and then somebody brings it up, like that Tumblr post, and you will remember. You will remember.

C: Alright. Okay. [G: Yay!] In a few years, when I do remember, I'll be in pain, but for now, I'm gonna choose to believe that I'm gonna forget.

G: Anyway, is this all gonna go into the Ko-Fi? Maybe we should put this at the end just as a "Thank you for the 100th!" bit

C: 100th treat. [G laughs] Sure.

G: Yeah. [laughing] The most important thing that we can give our audience is fucking-

C: Cockles information.

G: Cockles. [laughing] I'm not actually sure if I get most of those details correct. I'm pretty sure I do, but like, yeah, maybe not. And you know what? Maybe I don't get all of the details correct, but if anyway was like [C laughing], "Hey Grey, you got it wrong. This is actually what happened," it's like, what are you doing at the devil's sacrament? So like, no one's gonna indict themselves in that way. Or maybe they will! Feel free to [both laugh] like, comment, and subscribe? I'm not sure. Um, other things that you can do to contact us, probably. Thank you! And thank you for the 100th. [C: Yeah.] Yee!

#transcript

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