#he is so desperate about his love life sometimes that ig that can feel vaguely incel-y if ppl want it to be bad enough?

[roostertuftart]

I know you're the Kyle expert, but I knew a guy who thought Stan would be an incel. Thoughts?

Hmmm. Idk, I've seen that float around and I don't really get it?? Like, I can sorta get it more than when people seriously say it about Kyle. Stan definitely seems to fall into more... Viewing girls sort of in that perhaps lightly internally sexist way than Kyle seems to, of having some sort of unintentional separation between boys and girls that makes him kind of view girls as very different types of people friendwise, if that makes sense. Like, say he was dating a guy- I don't think much would change in terms of the guy being an extremely close friend who's been elevated up an extra level to romantic. But Wendy isn't really like that. She's not Stan's friend outside of their relationship.

And okay, that's not to say Kyle is a bastion of anti sexism himself, ESPECIALLY noting earlier seasons, but Kyle doesn't really seem to act the same way Stan does when interacting with girls?? His early season sexism felt more innocent and childish, something he's definitely grown out of now. It was less built on this deep internalized toxic masculinity and more like the "eww cooties" ideas that happen a lot with young kids. Obviously division based on traits like sex is not good under any circumstance, but it doesn't seem to have carried on much in his modern view of girls. Nowadays Kyle just seems to view girls far more equally even when divided from them, and cares more about listening or hearing out where they're coming from and understanding their frustration with sexism, for example. While he doesn't really have many close female friends (and really none of the boys actually do besides Stan), his behavior doesn't really shift at all to trying to be gentlemen-y or something around women, denoting a very equal level view of them.

But, in Stan's defense, we see him interacting with the girls way more than Kyle, and I think him having dated Wendy, interacting with her friends, etc etc over the series gives us way more to work with in that area than we get to with the more or less far in between hints we're given with Kyle. One thing that I think may impact this for me is also kind of that the few times we HAVE seen Kyle's attraction to girls play out, putting aside Leslie bc oh boy was Kyle blindly simping there, he doesn't seem to be as quick to focus on like... I guess vaguely sexual aspects like the other boys, which leads to him just seeming to objectify women less (Not to say that being sexually attracted to someone is inherently objectifying, but there is more of an overlap with people who are drawn by looks and engagement in objectifying behavior).

And then there's how Kyle has reacted to being rejected, and I know the big one is Super Hard PCness that everyone likes to point out as Kyle being a "nice guy", but in actuality, he was extremely graceful in how their relationship ended, moreso than he needed to be with the horrible things Heidi said to him, and only flipped out after being bullied and teased and harassed by virtually the whole school, Cartman and Heidi especially. It was definitely not anger purely because he didn't get a girl he liked, it was anger that someone he'd trusted and tried to help so swiftly turned on him and humiliated him for no reason at all, that once again he was being put down by Cartman, and that everyone else treated him poorly as well, Stan included. There's also Rebecca who Kyle just... Kinda let go. Like, we don't really see much of his reaction but there's nothing to tell us Kyle was angry their relationship was broken off, so I'm counting it at least a little. There's Nichole too, who once again we don't really straight up see Kyle's reaction to her breaking up with him. But we do see how he treats her, how much he tries to find stuff they have in common to talk about, how his only anger of their relationship not working is Cartman's blatant racism and lies about him purposely made to sabotage any chances he does get with this girl that he likes. It's not anger towards whatever choice Nichole makes here, it's anger about Cartman's needless and morally egregious interference. I know this is a low bar to pass in whether a character is decent to women, but Kyle just repeatedly not behaving badly over his breakups is a big tell to me. So often we see male characters act like assholes just because a girl doesn't like them or a girl broke up with them or something. Even with Stan, in fact, we've seen this play out. I mean. He's pretty okay too but we did see him tell Wendy she was a bitch for dating someone else. This is from early seasons, that I wouldn't solely use as evidence Stan is a crazy sexist even now, but it plays a part in this conversation on whether or not you can more accurately call Stan Marsh the incel-ish one of the two.

Okay, but like. Why am I even talking so much about Kyle here when you're asking about Stan? Well, I honestly think that the duality of them as characters reinforces the ideas of what the other is like to the audience, and this leads into a LOT of the extremes the fandom will push them into (the fem/masc debate, the nerd/jock debate, etc etc) and likewise it does so here. When we see Kyle being kinda more normal around girls, even though it's rare we see him like that at all, it makes Stan seem all the more awkward when in reality, he kind of isn't that bad at all?? He's pretty normal with girls for a boy his age, though he could be a bit less of a dick sometimes. I do think he sometimes has this huge focus on looks, and that can be... Not great, but it's not to a horrible evil incel-ish degree by any means, and I'd argue for his age he's a pretty good guy to, say, Wendy- Not that he can't improve a LOT but Idk, his shittiness comes off more as "dumb little boy is sometimes a jerk to his friends" to me than "secretly hates and disrespects women".

But y'know, at the end of the day, Kyle and Stan are more alike than people think about many of these things, this being one of them. Whether or not Kyle or Stan are better with how they act to women is hard to say. I can see why people would be able to twist Kyle into being incel-ish even if I don't really personally think it's based accurately on the information we've been given. I can see even moreso how someone might be able to with Stan, and while I do think there's at least a bit more of a leg to stand on him having some issues with internalized sexism, I don't think it's accurate with the information we've been given either. Neither of them are really incel-ish to me.

Honestly, if they were dealing with the issue of not being able to find a partner, they'd probably mostly internalize it into self blame and feel bad about themselves but not really broadly blame other people. Stan might slump into a depression or put his focus elsewhere, Kyle, if wanting a partner badly enough (I don't think it's ever been his first priority and I doubt it ever will be) would make efforts to fix the problem by figuring out what's putting people off about himself and try to figure out how he can fix it rather than lashing out. (Also I already lightly touched on why I don't think Kyle would redo his actions in The List right here over not being able to get a girlfriend lol)

[mastersoftheair]

So just to clear the air (and I guess my massive confusion) Harry never slept with Sandra, correct? I gotta say I need to read his memoir at this point as he is so intriguing to me, as well as masters of the air book, but like you said it’s a “blink and miss it” thing. I didn’t interpret it as anything more than having a few friendly conversations. It was more about emotional infidelity to me than physical, but given the circumstances and that exact heartbreaking point in time for Harry I can’t find it in me to blame either of them.

for me, ig i'm coming at my position from a place of bias. i'd read crosby's "a wing and a prayer" sometime in either 2021 or 2022 (those years blend together tbh), so i've had a lot of time to think about those 2 and their relationship and i lean towards "yeah, it likely happened" (this is a long response btw bc i'm quoting from the memoir):

crosby introduces his new friend, alexandra "landra" wingate (aka sandra westgate), in the chapter "learning about americans from the british" (this chapter was basically what we see in episode 6). moving on from this tho–

in the chapter "with landra in london", he expands on their growing relationship and the reader learns more about landra (she is genuinely Such an interesting person, and probably a spy). crosby writes about her with such admiration, regularly bringing up how smart she is. also, she's a captain!

this chapter's pretty important in how i formed my opinion on the matter. i understand the argument that the closeness of their relationship was intentionally left vague, but this chapter reads in a way that makes it feel Heavily implied despite not saying a lot (especially alongside crosby's emphasis on his wife jean being "four thousand miles away", as well as his own loneliness and despair wrt to all the missing and dead). there are some standout lines here:

-"I had Jean at home and Landra in England." (not a red flag, but it's a flag) -"I started seeing Landra every time I could." (cool) -"All I knew was that [Landra] was making my life much more endurable." (also cool) -"I did not tell Jean about Landra." (the last sentence of the chapter. it gave me pause and almost instantly reshaped the way i viewed that whole chapter)

the next chapter, "r&r with jean", crosby recalls how much the war took a toll on both him and his relationships. for a time, jean wrote more letters to croby than the other way around ("I began to skip writing to her."). i assume crosby must've been radiating Exceptionally negative energy bc he gets told this: "Croz, we can't stand to have you around. We want you back, but we want you to go home for a while." (i found the phrasing here really funny tbh. your vibes Suck! just Get Out of here!!)

so, crosby contemplates seeing jean again, wondering how both of them may have changed. he also brings up landra, for Some Reason: "What would I think of her? Protected in the States as she was, how would she compare to Landra? Now that I had grown so much, had such experiences, how would Jean and I fit together?"

the rest of the chapter Is about meeting and catching up with jean, however, and you can tell that he loves her a Ton. it's very sweetly written (he also basically ends the chapter saying "btw, we conceived our first child ;) ")

the final chapter about landra is "london junket" which begins with "When I returned from the United States and my idyll with Jean, I knew I had to do something about Landra." i think that sentence alone is pretty damning. if landra was just a friend, why would you be anxious about calling a friendship off? is it a guilt thing?

the context here is that crosby feels Far less lonely and depressed. he's met up with jean, life in london is finally "a delight". i found that important bc it gives me the impression that crosby desperately wanted companionship (possibly of two kinds), and he found that in landra– a friend and a maybe a [REDACTED]. now that he's having a great time with his friends in the 100th And he's met up with his wife, that itch's been scratched (that's just my opinion tho). bc of that, he decides to say goodbye to landra. they have this exchange:

"When a month passed after you were to return, and you did not phone me," she said, "I suspected that it was over. You found things good with Jean?" I told her about R&R in the U.S. I told her more about Jean. I told her about Stephen Patrick, Jeffrey Allen, or Evalyn. "When I realized you were gone," she said, "I no longer said no to a nice American at my office. I have been with him several times. I like him." (interesting) "I’m glad." (also interesting) "He is not married, He is not so dashing as you, but we have good times together." Me "dashing"? That was not my self-image. So much for Landra."

all put together (and with over 2 years to think about it), i Really kinda saw That Scene coming. but, like i said, i had that bias. and since i'd had a good amount of time to think about them, i came out the other end still excited to see them on screen. i found (and still find) landra a fascinating woman who must've had an exciting life (crosby's okay too ig lol). i also see them as a couple of imperfect, even selfish, 20somethings (speaking as an imperfect and selfish 20something). not to be corny, but "it takes 2 to tango". landra is Very intelligent, and crosby recounts how that aspect of hers left him in awe. she'd've 100% known the guy was married. and if signs point to her having had sex with the man, then she either made peace with it or simply didn't care (a lot of women are like that). plus, they're real people and real people contain multitudes idk. maybe some wife somewhere across the atlantic is hard to care about if you've never met her and never will. maybe it's hard to consider your wife's feelings in the midst of your own misery. a female character doesn't have to be wholesome and pure to be considered well-written. that certainly doesn't apply to most male characters. like you said, no one is perfect!

maybe, crosby left it vague out of respect to his wife. maybe it's vague bc nothing happened anyway (funny way to write it tho). maybe the wingate family wanted to avoid association with MotA bc it Literally didn't happen. or maybe they know it happened, but want to keep her name clean out of respect (who wants one brief relationship that happened 80 yrs ago to define you/your loved one decades later? that's 100% understandable). whichever the case, even crosby's kids are in a 50/50 split. i still lean towards "it happened", but it doesn't make me dislike either of them. they're flawed and i can respect that more than the show portraying either as picture perfect.

NONE of this is to say that i'm cool with cheating (or giving a "world war cheating pass", so to speak). while i find it realistic, it still wouldn't have been fair to jean, whether she knew about it or not (being a woman in the 1940s wasn't easy by any stretch). this Also isn't to dismiss anyone else's opinion on the matter, bc cheating on your partner is still a shitty thing to do. this whole spiel of mine is bc i like to share my opinions and i'm allergic to being concise. i write like i talk and on all levels except physical, anon, i'm giving you a long-winded rant over coffee and croissants lol

thanks for the ask!

[actuallyknowntobequitevexing]

Dean / New Feelings

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"I can't believe you dragged me into this." Dean huffed, putting the car in park and staring at the fancy dining hall in front of you two.

"Look, you agreed to it, now let's get it over with." you said firmly. You didn't want to be there either, but you felt obligated. It was your friend Abbie's birthday tonight, and her parents were throwing her an extravagant, over-the-top party, as usual. You hadn't been to one of her parties in years (because you absolutely hated them), but you decided to come to this one because it was her 21st birthday. Plus, she really needed you there; you were the only person who she could complain about the party to.

You didn't want to seem like an outcasted loser who's been hunting monsters and hasn't lived a normal life in almost four years, so you begged Dean to come with you. People who went to your high school would be there, and you wanted to seem like you were succeeding in life. The last thing you wanted was to be talked about.

"This dinner that you're paying for better be freaking worth it." Dean grumbled. He shut off the engine and got out of the car. You followed suit, readjusting your new (and really fucking expensive) red floor-length dress. You were annoyed that you had to buy a really nice dress for the occasion, but you couldn't deny that you felt sexy in it.

You and Dean walked up the steps to the dining hall. "Just, be nice, Dean. Please." you plead to him.

"I'll try my best. You know I hate these things." Dean stepped forward and opened the door for you, catching you off-guard. The gesture was simple, but it made your heart flutter.

Wait, what the fuck? you think. That was weird. Why did I feel that?

You've never had feelings for Dean before, but you couldn't ignore the giddy, girlish feeling you felt just now.

Pushing the thought aside, you walk into the dining hall. Dean steps by your side, looking just as horrified as you do. Everything was white. The walls, the tables, the decorations, the food, the lights - everything. The dark wooden floor was the only contrast to the blindingly bright room.

You and Dean share a nervous look. He offers his arm to you, and you snake your arm around his. You two start walking through the elegant crowd, populated with people who were dressed a billion times nicer than you two. You felt like you shouldn't even be near such expensive clothing and jewelry. You were careful to not bump into anyone, in fear of ruining someone's dress or drawing attention to yourself.

"So, am I your boyfriend, your friend, your second cousin, what?" Dean asks quietly.

You hadn't thought about that. "Uhm, I guess-"

"(Y/N)!!!" a shrill voice exclaims. Mary, a girl from your high school, runs up to you, bouncing gleefully with (what seems like) feigned delight. She grabs you in an embrace, and you're stunned but awkwardly hug back. "Oh, darling, how are you? It's been so long!"

Mary annoyed the hell out of you. She was one of those girls who thinks that everybody likes her and wants to be her friend. You're pretty sure you've spoke to her, like, twice in your entire high school career, so you're not sure why she's acting all buddy-buddy with you now.

You smile politely and say, "I'm good-"

Mary cuts you off, as if you weren't saying anything. "And, who is this handsome man on your arm?" She pushes a finger against Dean's chest, teasingly.

Dean looks uncomfortable but answers, "I'm (Y/N)'s boyfriend."

Okay, well, this is happening now.

"Oh, how lovely!" Mary exclaims. She leans over to you and whispers, "Nice job, (Y/N)."

You smile nervously. "Thanks. He sure is a looker." You nudge his side.

Dean and Mary laugh uncomfortably.

Uhg, way to go, (Y/N).

"Well, it's great to see you again, (Y/N). We definitely need to catch up sometime over dinner! I'll bring my hubby, and you can bring your man, too." Mary's white teeth are starting to blind you.

"For sure!" you exclaim excitedly. As she turns and walks away, you mutter to Dean, "That's never gonna fucking happen."

He smiles, laughing softly. You notice that he's staring at you weirdly.

"What are you looking at?" you question, raising an eyebrow.

Dean opens his mouth and quickly closes it, like he's just realized what he was doing. "I've just never seen you in a dress before. And all this," He gestures vaguely to your face, "stuff."

"Makeup?" you laugh. He nods, and you roll your eyes. "I wear makeup, Dean."

"Yeah but not like," He gestures to your face again, "this."

"You need to cool it with," You gesture to his face, "this, or I'll smack the crap out of you, got it?"

Dean nods and straightens his posture up, getting back into his role as "your boyfriend". You two walk over to the bar and Dean orders two glasses of Scotch. You gladly down your entire glass, wanting this night to be over. Dean chuckled at you, calmly downing his glass, too.

Someone bumps your shoulder rather roughly, pushing past you to get to the bar. You turn to glare at the person, but realize that it's Abbie.

"Give me the strongest thing you got." she desperately begs the bartender, both arms extended on the bar dramatically.

You roll your eyes at her, poking her side. "Hey, there's people standing here, you know."

Her head whips around and she seems to have just realized that she had pushed past a person. "Oh my god, (Y/N)." She threw her arms around you, leaning her weight against you exasperatedly. "I'm so glad you're here. I'm about to blow my fucking brains out. Seriously, my mom won't stop talking and talking and talking and constantly nagging me about my posture and how I'm acting and my dad is trying to get me internships at all these fancy colleges that I don't really want and-" Her posture immediately straightens, releasing you from her hug. She had just noticed that Dean was standing next to you. She tucked a stray piece of hair under her bangs, bringing her lips inwards, obviously embarrassed.

"Hi." She smiles at him, trying to act as if she didn't just have a pity fit in front of him. She tugs your arm and asks quietly, "Who's this?"

You feel secondhand embarrassment for her, but just laugh because Dean was, luckily for her, not another stuck-up attendee of her party. "This is Dean. My friend."

"Boyfriend." Dean whispers quickly, trying to remind you of your feigned relationship.

You put a hand on his shoulder reassuringly. "It's okay, this is my friend Abbie. She knows we aren't dating."

At your last statement, Abbie raises her eyebrow at you challengingly, as if saying, "Are you sure about that?" You roll your eyes and nod slightly, trying to keep this exchange away from Dean's attention.

"Interesting," she almost whispers. You can see the wheels turning in her head, trying to come up with some elaborate backstory between you and Dean and catch you in a lie. She smiles pleasantly again, takes Dean's hand, and shakes it politely. "Well, Dean, it was very nice to meet you. (Y/N), we'll be talking later. I hope you two enjoy the party." She wiggles her eyebrows teasingly at you, grabs her drink from the bar, and walks away.

You close your eyes, sighing at the thought of having to defend your and Dean's platonic relationship when you talk again with Abbie.

"Well, she seems like a hoot." Dean says, trying to edge you even more. You jab your elbow into his side, and he chuckles, amused at your discomfort at this gathering.

For the next hour or so, you two mingle with most of the party, though most of the interactions were against your will. You and Dean were devestatingly bored with the party, but, every time you tried to leave, another person would come up to start a conversation. Most of them were people who went to your high school, interested in recounting all of their achievements and, ultimately, just hearing themselves talk. You were polite and friendly, and Dean mostly remained quiet. Sometimes, however, he would snake his hand around your hip while you were mid-conversation. His touch never ceased to startle you, and you secretly wished he would touch you more...

What. The. Fuck. Are. You. Thinking.

You shook off any romantic, dreamy thoughts regarding Dean, and tried to focus on faking your way through this party. Dean was only making it more difficult whenever his large, warm hand would find its way to your hip or your lower back. You were sure he was doing this to just add credibility to your two's "relationship", but you couldn't stop thinking about him, and how you never wanted him to leave your side.

At one point during the night, you and Dean wound up talking to a really nice elderly married couple. They looked to be in their sixties, and their names were Sarah and David. While David and Dean began talking about classic cars and rock music, Sarah leaned closer to you, placing her hand on your knee. "So, (Y/N), how did you and Dean meet?" she asked, her eyes gleaming with curiosity and happiness. You could tell she was a romantic.

Well, you couldn't tell her how you and Dean really met, so you decided to tell her the watered-down version. "I was caught up in some trouble a few years ago. I was going down a really dangerous path."

"I'm so sorry to hear that, (Y/N)," A look of worry washed over her face. "I'm glad you're okay now."

"Well, truthfully, I probably wouldn't be okay right now if I hadn't met Dean. He saved me one night when I was in in really deep trouble, and we became really good friends after that. Me, him, and his brother. They've become my family, and I'm really grateful for them." You smiled at your words because you had never acknowledged how much you loved the Winchester brothers until that point. You raised your eyes to look at Dean. He caught your glance, giving you an adorable closed-mouth smile before returning to his conversation with David.

You feel a rush of heat inflame your cheeks, and you turn back to see a smiling Sarah. She gave you such a knowing look, like everything just fit into place in the matter of just a small exchange. She touched your knee once more and said quietly, "Hold on to each other."

You smile once more at her, and she joins Dean and David's conversation, leaving you to your thoughts.

Does Sarah see something that I don't?

You pushed away those thoughts once more, and tried to concentrate on their conversation.

About an hour later, you and Dean decided to call it quits. You both told Sarah and David goodbye and thanked them for the company, then you found Abbie to tell her you were leaving. She reminded you of the conversation she wanted to have with you, and you promised her you would call her soon. You wished her a happy birthday, hugged her goodbye, and made your way to Dean's car.

You two drove in a sleepy yet comfortable silence. You knew you were definitely going to bed as soon as your head hit the pillow. In your sleepy haze, you lazily touched Dean's knee and said, "Thank you for coming with me. I hope you weren't as miserable as you expected to be."

He smiled and reached over to grab your hand, resting them on your leg. "I had fun." He glanced over at you, absolutely melting your heart. His thumb rubbed back and forth on your hand, soothing you and making you sleepier.

(Let me know if you liked this one! Feedback is appreciated!)