#he couldn't stop thinking about him after 7x03; he couldn't stop thinking about him in 7x05

[stvngerthanfanfiction]

kind of cool that buck started thinking about tommy one day and just....never stopped. like that's canon.

[whateverthedragonswant]

Hi, I recently came across your post talking about dark Daenerys always being the end game. I thought you did an excellent job showing the foreshadowing fans missed from the show. What surprised me on the show was JonxDany. I just couldn't wrap my head around the "romance". It felt out of character and illogical. As someone who loves Daenerys as a character and seems to really understand her, do you think they were in love? Is it tragic or political? I can't seem to reconcile it. Thank you!

Hi Nonnie! Thank you so much for the compliment, oh my goodness! And thank you for the ask!

Tbh with you, I never quite wrapped my head around the Jonerys romance either. I know a lot of people thought it was due to the lack of chemistry between Emilia and Kit on screen (I disagree, that dragon riding scene in 8x01 proved they did which makes me think their lack of romantic chemistry was intentional on the show’s part through the writing and editing), or that it was rushed (this part could be possible since they rushed her dark turn as well). But I honestly think it was meant to be tragic for both Jon and Daenerys, but more political on Jon’s side, at least in the beginning. 

I know a lot of people don’t agree with the pol!Jon theory and think it’s just that, a theory, but looking at the time from when Jon has met Dany through to the end, I find it hard to think anything else. Because that certainly would have explained away the receding of Jon’s POV/character after he and Dany met. It also would have went in line with what Kit had said before the beginning of season 7 about Jon being more political that season, possibly manipulating (I don’t think he used that exact word but I’m paraphrasing for him), but doing it kindly. Even though GoT blew up everyone’s arcs at the end of the last season, at the time, we knew there was a reason that Sansa said the line to him in 7x01 “You need to be smarter than Father. You need to be smarter than Robb” and we had seen Jon listening to Sansa by him deciding to leave the North (and organizing their defense for the upcoming battle) in her hands, asking Sansa what she thought when he got Tyrion’s scroll in 7x02, and what he says to Tyrion in 7x03. So, I personally think they were gearing up for Jon to do whatever it took to get Dany and her dragons up North for the battle (while probably not feeling all that comfortable about it but knowing it had to be done), which is why I think we see him and his band of men go on that quest in 7x06 & meet with Cersei and Co along with Dany in 7x07. 

There’s just too many questionable moments that happen from 7x03 to 8x06 that prove Jon was not as smitten as Dany was with him: 

The way he studies Dany reuniting with Jorah, the fact that he seems almost uncomfortable when Dany says in 7x05 “I’ve grown used to him” & his response “I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, Your Grace” and he doesn’t look back once as they push the boat out into the water (I think they purposely showed the contrast between Jorah saying goodbye to Dany vs Jon saying goodbye to Dany, there was definitely a reason they show Jorah looking back and not Jon but they play Jon and Dany’s love theme in the background - x)

Jon’s “what did I do face?” after he bends the knee figuratively in the boat cabin (3:23 - x) (though to be fair, the 7x06 script confirmed this is when Jon realizes he has feelings for her after seeing Dany mourning Viserion so this reaction of Jon’s could be that he basically just gave the North away)

Jon’s reaction and looking over at Varys and Missandei after Dany blows up on Tyrion in 7x04 and says “Your family, you mean? Perhaps you don’t want to hurt them after all” (1:11 - x) - which is really foreshadowing that Jon will have to make the same choice eventually, that Dany will give that ultimatum, me or your family, which she does in 8x04 and then inadvertently continues to in 8x05 and 8x06 - then Dany pushes him for advice, he gives it to her, and she doesn’t completely follow it to the letter, and then eventually she disregards it completely when she burns down KL in 8x05

Jon not showing any emotion when he receives word that Arya & Bran are alive & back home while in front of Dany though we see his reactions in 8x01 when he’s reunited with them (7x05) (8x01)

Jon’s reaction to the Northerners’ not so great reaction to Dany that was cut (0:43 - x)

Drogon watching Jon and Dany make out in 8x01 and Jon keeping his eyes open as he kisses Dany & keeping her in front of him (a very common trope, if that’s the right word, to indicate that something shifty is afoot or there is distrust - 4:11 x)

the infamous squint Jon has in response to Dany talking in response to Tyrion (x) which they definitely included for a reason and this for me solidified Kit as one of the Masters of Microexpressions

Jon’s reactions to Dany (that she can’t see) when she visits him in his room after the Feast in 8x04 (x)

Jon’s immediate whiplash worried turn to Dany when Tormund says proudly “or a King!” to check her reaction (x) plus the framing in this scene is not only meant to show the increasing isolation & paranoia Dany is feeling but for Jon to have his back to her (after they shared that warm smile no less which she realizes in 0:45 - x) I think it speaks very loudly that he is not as head over heels as people think he is but that he is placating her while also caring about her (she is family to him, the last of his real father’s family, & he’s also still attracted to her)

his glare to Sansa while planning the assault on KL to get her to shut up for lack of a better way to put it (2:36 x) which Tyrion later confirms in the same episode with his line to Sansa “why provoke her?” which leads to Sansa realizing Tyrion is afraid of Dany and then she also realizes Jon is too (Jon’s fear is not confirmed in dialogue in this moment but the ones seeing the writing on the wall for this whole thing, it wasn’t a large leap for them to make, knowing the characters they way they do) which then leads to her telling his secret

Jon giving himself up basically, to go South, I think he’s very aware he will not be coming North again once Dany wins and that is why he asks Tormund to take Ghost with him - you see him saying goodbye to Sam and Gilly, finding out about their child on the way, to Tormund, to Ghost (I know people were mad that Jon didn’t pet Ghost, I was too, but I think he honestly couldn’t handle it at that moment and I’ve seen brilliant metas circulate that talk about how Ghost is an extension of Jon and his injuries and look echo how Jon really feels - & if you see the sliced ear, it’s very possible that they are fully correct in that reading, Jon has stopped listening, he’s doing what he thinks is right, what he has to do, his duty, he’s not listening to Sam or Tormund or Sansa or even Arya) - this whole scene is meant as a goodbye to Jon Snow as a character (his Night’s Watch arc, his Wildling arc, even his bastard/Stark arc (and his wants that he has, his response to Gilly when she tells him they want tto name their child after him: “I hope it’s a girl” is just heartbreaking, Jon wanted a family someday (5:08 - x, notice how the Stark theme starts up subtly in the background) & he always wanted to be a Stark and in his mind, he is getting neither one nor does he think he deserve them at this point) and I think that’s why they don’t have any other Starks in that scene (& plus they had the Starks in that other scene in 8x04) (x) -- this whole scene really is the proof in the pudding for me regarding the whole duty vs love debate, coming down on the side of duty

Jon’s “I love you” in the fireplace scene seems to be more an answer to not just reassure her but tamp down any growing fury after just witnessing Varys’ execution (1:11 x) immediately followed up by his usual line “you will always be my queen” and then when she asks “is that all I am to you? Your queen?” notice that he doesn’t answer but lets her kiss him which he then doesn’t return and she realizes (notice his loud breathing too, it’s not passion, it’s fear, fear of what it might mean that he is not returning her affection so to speak, sadly for Dany I think she realizes this too and that’s why she subtly shakes her head, steps back and says “alright, let it be fear”, the part of me that loves Dany truly felt horrible for her in this moment though she scared the crap out of me too lol, it’s harsh because she really does love Jon, not enough to give up the IT and her destiny, but enough that she wants their relationship to work, that she did go up North to fight for him, delaying the attack on KL, she lost Jorah and Viserion, her forces were depleted, idk I just have some sympathy for her here because I still love her, and this is before she went full on dark, and Jon’s “I love you” was said softly with some measure of warmth in his eyes I think but I don’t believe he meant it the way she wanted him to)

Kit had this to say right before season 7 aired which I find fascinating because yes while he can’t give away spoilers, he didn’t need to answer this so definitively. And while he didn’t know what was going to happen in season 8 yet, I think this lends creedence (is that the right word?) to the fact that Jon was not head over heels in love with Dany (not like he was with Ygritte)

But saying all of that, I think by the end, Jon definitely cared for her. I don’t think he wanted her to die or even go bad. I think he was ready to give himself up to be with her to protect his home, to placate her, but also so there would no longer be a Targaryen living alone in the world. I think he remembers Aemon’s words all too well. However, I don’t think he could reconcile himself to a full on romance (which I think incest did play a part into it, but I think had that not been a factor, he still wouldn’t have been head over heels for Dany, incest with cousins and uncles/aunts was common in the GoT universe, Starks in history married their cousins at times [look back at their family tree, they were no strangers to it], and we all know about the Targaryen inbreeding, but I really think it has more to do with who Dany ends up being in the end than anything, and that’s why we see some moments that could be misconstrued as romantic and some warm, I would almost say tender, like the waterfall scene in 8x01 before Drogon enters the frame so to speak). I think, like every other character in the show that came into her orbit, Jon had feelings for the same Dany that they all did, that Jorah was in love with, that Tyrion believed in and was also in love with, that Varys supported until he couldn’t: the breaker of chains, the girl who walked into a fire with three eggs and out of the same fire with three dragons, etc. But once the curtain was pulled back and the Wizard was revealed, after he was around her long enough, I think Jon knew who she really was becoming and I really believe that played a major part in the portrayal of their “romance”. I also think that when Jon left to go to KL in 8x04, a part of him planned to take up Jorah’s role in Dany’s life. Not to say that he could replace Jorah or become a full on advisor to her, but that he would join Tyrion, Varys, Grey Worm, and Missandei in helping to win Dany back her IT like he promised but also to keep her placated, maybe help steer her in the right direction. And be someone who genuinely cares about her, another Targaryen (though no one knowing he was one had Sansa not told Tyrion). Until she tired of him or decided to kill him to end the threat his birthright posed. He says as much in 8x06 to Tyrion “That’s her decision”. I don’t think he ever thought Dany would actually ask him to join her on the IT and it definitely wasn’t something he wanted.

I did mention tragic for Jon, too, and I think that’s where the tragedy comes in. He has now become the Targaryen alone in the world, he is now a queenslayer, a kinslayer, and he is exiled back to the Night’s Watch. He had to kill someone he cared about, he had to kill a woman (he couldn’t do it twice before, with Ygritte and Melisandre), he had to kill his last living Targaryen family. And he had to do it while deceiving her in that last moment (which is why I think they dialed back the whole pol!Jon thing if it was ever on the table, which I definitely believe it was at some point) and watch her die. It wasn’t something he wanted to do as we know, but he had to, and we see him questioning himself even after she’s gone. (x) So I feel it was more political (in the beginning), complex (middle), and tragic (in the end) for Jon but for different reasons than Dany.

As for Dany, I think from her end, it was meant to be more of a tragic romance. In the books, I believe, there is a prophecy that Dany will know three betrayals and love is one of them. I don’t know if they carried that into the show here exactly, but there is a common theme of betrayal among Dany’s arc as we all know. I think she truly loved Jon and hoped he would be what she could never find before, had never seen in Viserys (not that she considered him romantically but I mean since he was the only other Targaryen she knew about at the time, and she knew the Targaryen history of siblings marrying siblings), or Drogo, or Daario, or even Jorah. Regardless of her feelings for any of them, regardless of their feelings for her, I think she thought she found what she wanted, what she needed, in Jon. Though I think finding out about Jon being her long lost nephew (and rival claim to the IT) deterred it maybe for a moment (or make her at least second guess it), but she still loved him and felt just as strongly. Not enough to deter her from her goal and her destiny (after the Great War is over, I mean), but as much as she possibly can. I think she really thought Jon was it for her. I also think she expected betrayal from Jon as she states in 8x05 to Tyrion (x), and then the look she gives Jon after Tyrion is taken away to a cell in 8x06 (1:50, you can also see Jon’s shock here because he wasn’t expecting her to be watching him so closely & he realizes oh crap, don’t blink, while they play the love theme in the background, she’s waiting for him to “betray” her too and had he defended Tyrion then and there, I have no doubt she would have thrown him in a jail cell, too, waiting for judgement aka execution x) but when he doesn’t “betray” her and she’s attained her goal, she is ready to make plans to rule together and be with him completely. It is definitely tragic for her end because here she expected him to betray her (like everyone else has at some time or another except Missandei, GW & Daario) twice by then, and the one time she doesn’t expect it, he does (no matter how it might have been justified & Jon’s only option) and it means her end. I’m not justifying her actions at all but I can see where they attempted to portray this as a tragic romance for her but only for her. Dany’s POV ends up swallowing most of the show in season 8, to the point where her story line becomes basically the show’s story line. Her arc becomes the sun that all other arcs are orbiting around and this is because she’s the other Big Bad after the Night King. Plus, I also think they were planning something big with Jon and that’s why they removed most of his story (so to speak) and important moments with the Starks, etc, for the big reveal in the end (it’s common in other shows I’ve seen and they did everything the same way they did in those other shows until 8x06 when they abandoned it). I don’t know what changed in the end, but that’s what I truly believe was what they were going for when it came to Dany herself. Tragic romance. I don’t believe it was ever political for her, in any way, shape, or form. I think once she fell in love with Jon, that was it.

The love theme itself “Truth” if you listen to it on the S7 soundtrack (Ramin Djawdi is a master btw) has an epic feel to it but almost a tragic one (though tragedy takes a back seat to the epic). It’s more Targaryen theme in nature (I have no idea what specific instrument you would call it) and you can hear it coming from Dany’s side almost, if that makes sense. And I think that’s because not only does it refer to the scene where Bran reveals who Jon is, and the boat sex is happening, but also because I believe it was only meant for Dany to experience this great romance. It does start out Stark-y just a tiny bit but then turns into something more, swells, and you can hear a slight Targaryen tint coming to it. After the first swell of music, you can almost see the boat scene happening in your head, whether you’ve actually seen it or not, and there’s almost a trepidation in the beginning, a contemplation, and then it’s all in, both feet over the edge and all hands on deck, pardon the pun. (x) This music plays as we know during the bending the knee scene in another song “See You For What You Are” (x), more subtle, but it’s there. And I think not only is it because it’s the moment where Jon realizes he has feelings and this leads to opening the door for the boat bang, but also because it’s what Jon says (this song, to me, sounds even more Targaryen-y to me) to Dany after he bends the knee, “see you for what you are” not who. And I know I mentioned it above, but it also plays during certain moments in season 8 that really make you question that romance, like that scene in 8x06. I think it’s all very telling. 

I have to be very honest, I’m not pro-Jonerys at all. But it’s not because I hate Dany or Jon or hate the idea of them together or get squicked by the family angle, it’s because the relationship was not good for either of their characters in the show. 

I remember watching 7x06 for the first time and seeing her reaction (or lack thereof) for Viserion’s death. I think she was in shock when it happened but who does she stand on the wall waiting for after? Jon. And that bothered me so much because she was the mother of dragons and they were the only children she would ever have. (and I might be more slightly biased towards the animals on the show) Yes, she did cry for Viserion on the boat later, but it’s almost more muted I feel because it blurs with her concern for Jon in that moment. That bothered me tremendously. Little did I know this would become a recurring theme for the last season as well: Jon comes first to everything else except the IT. (and I personally can’t stand it when this happens, I’m sorry, I’m all for love, but when you lose who you are, when you sacrifice yourself, I just can’t get past that) We do see her pain in 8x01 when Bran tells her about Viserion, and her pain at Rhaegal’s death in 8x04, but this is a strong female character who has proven she doesn’t need a man to run things. She is not someone who would get so besotted with someone that she would push everything else to the back burner and allow whatever is happening with him to color her decisions (I know, we all fall in love and it can happen, especially if it’s a first love or something akin to what one can feel as true love, if they’re convinced it’s that, but damn). Daario made suggestions to her but in the end, she made her own decisions. Drogo told her how to be but in the end, she figured out a way to appeal to him to do as she wanted (as we see in that scene where she takes the women into her care). Jorah advised her, so did Tyrion, but in the end she made her own decisions. 

I hate it when they do this to strong female characters (which is why I despised the whole Sansa vs Dany thing, I get it story wise but here were two arguably incredibly strong women going head to head over a man most of the time or at least they tried to show being a factor in Dany’s fall and it just... ugh). So not only did Dany falling in love with Jon lead to her fall, her demise, but it wasn’t good for Jon, either. He had to keep who he was a secret, he had to placate her, give himself up and over to duty, the table was not tilted towards him really in their relationship, not in season 8 at least, the power dynamic was all screwy (as shown in that bedroom scene in 8x04 & the fireplace scene in 8x05). I just don’t think they made a good couple to be honest, not one that could have worked out long term I think, despite what happened in KL & Jon feeling uncomfortable. Personally, not that I’m the show or GRRM, but I think eventually, had Jon not married her and ruled with her, there would have been a Dance of Dragons 2.0 with Jon possibly losing in the end. It depends really on if anyone else found out about Jon’s parentage and how much of a threat ir would have become. And I love both characters too much to see either of them go that route. But then of course, that happened so... 

Anyhoo, I’m so sorry for the 100 page essay in response lol. I swear I didn’t mean to get so wordy. I guess I still have a lot of thoughts where this show is concerned. This was my first ask, thank you so much for being it and for such an amazing question! <3