#hasmoneanism

[agam-shel-barvadim]

i'm actually arguing with a chatbot about Hashmonean politics

what is this

[avayarising]

As a non-Jew, ignorant of Jewish history (I was only on https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pharisees-sadducees-and-essenes to fact-check something I was saying in another post), I find this absolutely hilarious:

Sadducees: We have theological concerns about who should serve as priests.

Pharisees: We have political concerns about who should rule the people.

Essenes: Fuck that Jonathan guy.

[hyperpotamianarch]

So, Jewish Fantasy! A very nebulous idea that tries to catch form in many different ways. I don't know much about how it works outside of Israel - I saved the recommendation list that circulated around here but didn't try anything from it yet (outside of Spinning Silver, which I read before I ever saw the list). So, if anything of what I say seems ludicrous to you because you've seen a book that does it well - don't hesitate to recommend it to me! Though I'm not sure how applicable it will be for what I'm about to say.

There are a couple of angles from which one can try to get at Jewish Fantasy: through using Jewish folklore and myth as a basis for your story, through using Jewish characters or by writing out of a Jewish cultural context. In certain stories, different angles tend to be more pronounced - Charashta is based on Midrashim and Jewish folklore, Spinning Silver has Jewish characters, and Agam HaTzlalim is written out of some degree of Jewish culture. Yeah, two of those are Israeli books that weren't translated, feel free to give alternative examples but those are the only one I can safely talk about since I've actually read them.

I could elaborate more on that, but what actually made me want to write a post on the topic was a post about how so much of Fantasy is Greek (in a way) and Sci-Fi is Roman. And that made me think, what about Jewish Fantasy? And while this is a topic I've thought of and been somewhat involved in conversations on for some time now, this is looking at it from a particular angle. An angle which could be examplified by the simple question: why is there no Jewish Disney Princess?

All right, all right, settle down. I know about the Vanollope von Schweetz thing. Quite frankly, considering the source for it is the word of the actress and that it has no effect on the story whatsoever, I think I'm fine with ignoring it. Feel free to shout at me in the comments, hopefully the rest of the post will explain this better.

You see, the problem is that Disney Princesses mostly come from stories about Medieval Europe, and in that particular time and place "Jewish" and "royalty" were inherently contradictory. A Jewish girl couldn't have been a princess, because Jewish communities were never a part of the ruling class. At least not in medieval Europe.

Now the reason what I'm saying is rubbish is because of other contradictory examples, like Mulan or Tiana, and maybe Pocahontas or Esmeralda. And based off of those examples I could probably whip up a couple of ideas on how to do an interesting Jewish Princess story - base it on the Book of Judith, for example, or offer a Jewish twist on some European folktales (which might be hard considering some of them actually have straight up Jewish characters playing as the villains), or... have a movie about Jews assimilating into European culture... Yeah, I can see why Pocahontas or the Hunchback of Notre-Dame might feel a little uncomfortable. But the point is: Fantasy is based on Medieval times, and Jews' role during that time wasn't one of royalty.

You can't really write a medieval Jewish kingdom, because there wasn't really any. And yes, many people try using the Khazarians for that. However, their kingdom was only Jewish for a century, maybe, before it was completely destroyed. Plus, we barely have any data on what it looked like, and its culture was likely very different from Jewish culture. So the medieval presentation of Jews would have to be of a persecuted minority. That, essentially, is what we see in Spinning Silver: a Jewish family in medieval times, a member of which serves as our protagonist. And Maryem is pretty much constantly angry about the antisemitism flourishing all around her. So I suppose that could be an example to follow - along with the stories about Maharal of Prague and the Golem, fighting blood libels.

So, you can portray Jews as an oppressed minority, constantly fighting their persecution. An alternative could probably be following the example of Ḥassidic stories, talking about the Rebbe, the Renter, the Trader and the Widow (regular character archetypes in such tales). You could have the antagonist be the local Pariz, nobleman, or perhaps the gentile that decided to be a robber, or occasionally a fellow Jew who out-leassed your protagonist from their home. All regular tropes in the day-to-day life of an... (checks notes) early modern Eastern Europen Jew? Huh. I suppose it's not exactly the same period.

Either way, if you want your story to be more fuly Jewish, to not always play against the backdrop of a non-Jewish kingdom, you have some interesting options. The first question would be: are you taking from the past or the present? If you choose present, well, you can choose between Diasporan or Israeli culture. In addition, this will more or less constrain you to some type of Urban Fantasy or other Hidden World stories, with not much of an option to delve into Epic Fantasy. If that's what you want to do - great! Go ahead and do that. Personally, I have some degree of a problem with how I've seen Israeli culture portrayed in stories so far, but that's a story unto itself.

If you choose past... well... Jewish history is nothing if not long. And if we're really trying to make a more Jewish backdrop, we'll probably need to pull from Jewish independant states or kingdoms. Of which there are a couple that can be used - Ancient Israel throughout the time of the Tanach, from the Judges through the first kings and the divided kingdoms of Judea and Israel; Yehud Medinta, which while it existed under the Persians had a Jewish governor for certain periods; the Hasmonean Dynasty, with all its ups and downs; the Kingdom of Adiabene, which converted to Judaism for a time; some short-lived Jewish independant states in defiance of the Romans; and of course, the infamous Kingdom of Khazar. There are also legendary kingdoms of the lost 10 tribes, which could possibly work as interesting additions. It is also important to note that in the Tanachic period I included a pretty vast array of periods, including the Judges (periodical local saviors and heroes), the House of Sha'ul (which isn't too easy to characterize), the Davidic Dynasty (Temple! Prophets! A bloodline promised to last! Evrything you might want from a kingdom), and the Kingdom of Israel (a couple of dynasties have their own characteristics, but most didn't survive for long).

Maybe I'll try my hand in suggesting what a kingdom based on the Hasmonean Dynasty could look like later. For now, let us start with: there is no medieval Jewish kingdom, so we'll take one from the Hellenistic period or from the Bronze Age to cover it up! Either that, or we'll try figuring out the structure of the early medieval kingdom that converted to Judaism that one time.

I'm not sure how much of a point I made, really. Thank you for reading, and have a good day!

[247reader]

Day 27: Salome Alexandra!

Shelamzion Alexandra was born into an aristocratic Judaean family in the second century BC. She is believed to have been the sister of Simeon ben Shetach, a legendary rabbi and Pharisee religious leader, but her Greek second name was highly unusual for a woman in her position.

Salome made a highly advantageous marriage, to Alexander Jannaeus, who had just ascended to the throne of a kingdom in turmoil. Judaea was surrounded by encroaching powers, and beset with religious tension between the rival - and highly politicized - Pharisee and Sadducee movements. Alexander began persecuting the Pharisees, including Simeon, who was driven into hiding; Salome attempted, with limited success, to stay his hand.

Alexander died while on one of his many military campaigns, though not before naming Salome, rather than one of their sons, as his heir. It was a wise choice. Salome was a seasoned politician and an innate peacemaker - she brought the Pharisees back into power without persecuting the Sadducees, fortified the frontiers, and maintained a careful diplomatic dance with the expansionist powers surrounding her.

Salome died in 67 BC; her reign was long remembered as a golden age.

[unsolicited-opinions]

I hold some positions which aren't always appreciated by Jewish friends.

For instance, I am convinced that the Exodus never happened. There's no evidence for it where there would be if it had actually happened.

That doesn't mean it isn't important, that it isn't foundational to Jewish identity, or that I don't treasure it as a story. It's foundational, important, and dear to me - but it's an origin myth which I don't take any more literally than I do the story of Noah's Ark. I think biblical literalism in (Judaism or Christianity) is theology for spiritual and intellectual infants. I have no patience for literalist readings and have often enjoyed the fact that Jews are less married to literalist readings than Christians.

Another example came to mind today because I'm staring to see Chanukkah posts. Most Reform/Conservative Jews my age in the US were raised to see chanukkah as a holiday celebrating religious freedom, but I've never felt entirely comfortable with that reading.

I have issues with lionizing the Hasmonean dynasty. I dislike demonizing Hellenism in overly broad strokes. I hate that "apikoros," the word some Jews use for a Jewish apostate or Jewish heretic, comes from Epicurus, whose contributions to western thought are extraordinary.

Later Jewish thinkers like Maimonides and Spinoza folded Hellenistic ideas into Jewish thought...and I dearly love the products of these projects of synthesis.

I'm not saying that it was good the temple was desecrated. I'm not saying it is bad that the Maccabean revolt restored the temple.

I'm saying that it's really a shitload more complex than the story I was raised with and I like delving into that complexity and questioning the way the story is told to Jewish children.

Here's the part which is oddest to me: When I struggle with this topic? I feel exceptionally Jewish. It feels right to me to dig into the complexity and fallability of these stories and their heroes.

If this topic interests you, here's an article to get you started:

[blueiscoool]

Coin Hoard Belonging to Second King of the Hasmonean Dynasty Found in Israel

Dr. Shay Bar, Dr. Yoav Farhi and Dr. Mechael Osband, who led the excavation, discovered the 80/79 BCE-style coins on Friday.

Researchers unearthed 160 coins belonging to the second king of the Hasmonean dynasty from a Hanukkah-era excavation, the University of Haifa’s Zinman Institute of Archaeology announced on Monday.

Dr. Shay Bar, Dr. Yoav Farhi and Dr. Mechael Osband, who led the excavation, discovered the 80/79 BCE-style coins on Friday.

“We believe that the coins were discovered at a way station, which we didn’t know about until this excavation,” Bar added. “The site included a purification mikveh, a pool and other buildings and was located along the Tirzah River Valley on the main road that leads to the Sartaba fortress which was built by King Jannaeus.”

A piece of Israel's history

The Hasmonean King Alexander Jannaeus—a descendant of Jewish royalty whose Hebrew name was Jonathan—ruled over the kingdom of Judea from 103 to 76 BCE, the statement said. King Jannaeus was the great nephew of Judah Maccabee and the great-grandson of Mattathias, who led the 167 BCE revolt against Antiochus’ armies. Among the results of that revolt, the institute explained, is the cleansing of the Temple that is now celebrated during Hanukkah.

Not many coins belonging to Jannaeus have been discovered, the statement said, making this “extremely rare” and one of the largest coin finds in Israel.

Farhi, a curator at the Israel Eretz Israel Museum, said on one side, each coin has an eight-pointed star and an Aramaic inscription reading, “King Alexander, Year 25.” The other side displays an anchor and a Greek inscription reading, “[Coin of] King Alexander.”

The Hasmonean kingdom—named after Hasmon, a distant ancestor of the Maccabees—lost its independence to the Romans in 63 BCE, and Roman governors later ruled directly over Judea. In 37 BCE, the Hasmoneans fell to Herod the Great, a Roman of Edomite descent, and the Herodian dynasty began.

[mental-mona]

יונינה- הסיפור של חנוכה | Yonina- The Full Story of Hanukkah

[finelythreadedsky]

on the heels of my realization that nathaniel and theodore are the same name, anybody got any guesses about what 'aristobulus' might calque from hebrew into greek? 'best-plan'?

[fillejondrette]

the art is cute but palestine was literally a british mandate in the 1930s so uh. i'm a bit confused

[k-wame]

reading about how an ancient royal house plotted to seduce mark antony with the portrait of their beautiful crown prince & antony indeed got so hard for the boy’s portrait it nearly cost herod the great his crown & head. and i’ve been sat here contemplating this detail bit abt chaotic bi king antony & i just want to

[agam-shel-barvadim]

Sending an ask because you've asked nicely: I believe you've said once you have something of an obsession with the Hasmoneans. Care to elaborate on it? Do you know what caused you to take a special interest in them?

ahh!

i have a weird relationship with the Hasmoneans, i never know quite how to call it

as a kid there were two Jewish stories that stood out to me, the story of Hanukkah and the story of Honi the circle-drawer (see my pfp; Honi just doesn't come up as easily but i used to talk about him a lot here especially before i discovered jumblr).

at first the main reason i liked the story of Hanukkah was because of Hanukkah itself, i had a music teacher who taught us a lot of Hanukkah songs, including ones that are more little-known, and these just clicked on in a sense i cant really explain why they mostly just felt very hopeful and empowering in a sense.

then at some point i learned about the Hasmonean kingdom. and what i like to refer to as "Hasmonean politics": power dynamics, Prushim and Tzedukim, the great rebelion (yeah it technically was after the Hasmoneans time but a lot of the background that was behind it is based in the system that the Hasmoneans have set in place).

and at first i took it as a story (i kinda still do in a way). an extention to the story of Hanukkah. a sequel, if you will, the "how they lived after". and what i liked about this story is that it made sense. it wasnt like modern-day politics which i gave up on engaging with, with all elements that should be used together being treated as opposing. no, in my initial engagement with the Hasmoneans and the Hasmonean kingdom it was like everything is set in the right place, organized, theres a clear stance each "party" has (which of course, is mostly because summing up history in that way is easier, and applying this to present day is impossible as it's still going).

and the thing is, later on, i was able to connect those little things that made sense with the present day, making better sense of the present day as well. Hasmonean kings slowly turned more towards Greek-like names, which represents how in general Greek was a foreign emperial language with influence on local peoples. just like how these days, people in Israel combine English into Hebrew much more than i'd like (with the irony of me typing this out in English), as English is an "international language".

then theres the controversies. take the end of it all as an example. a group that wanted to fight, a group that wanted to "play it safe". you can see the logic behind each. then how we burnt our own supplies (according to tradition). how we're always and only defeated when we betray ourselves.

this were very simplified black-and-white terms i made back then. it also helped me cope with antizionism, because it was the perfect secular explanation to pur continued existant in the Aretz - we are the Hebrew who were forcefully removed from their homeland before, then returned and settled under the name of the kingdom of Hashmonai, and then were forced out once again. and it went with me, when my army service became no longer an option i could say "i'd make a better Hebrew than an Israeli" which of course is very different from the Hasmoneans it's its own thing but connecting all of these dots felt kinda comforting for me ig.

the bottom line is, the Hasmoneans are an evidence of Hebrew independence in Eretz Yisrael which can be viewd from a more secular perspective (then of course so was Judea in a sense, but Hashmonai always felt to me more similar to what Israel is today, in a weird sense).

there's so much more to it. i could talk about the mass conversion of the Edomeans, and how it demonstrates what can happen when a Jewish regime loses its way. i could talk about how the fall of Hashmonai (not really Hashmonai but forgive me for the simplification, im referring to the destruction of the second temple mostly) represents everything that Israel should be affraid of (in my humble opinion).

i could talk about social and economical classes. the higher and lower city in Jerusalem (these are probably not the right English names but thats the best i can do im affraid). the Cohanim, how there were probably viewed as "free eaters" by some (sounds kinda familiar, but also very different).

the problem with the way i view these things is that i view them in a very story-like way. which does make a lot of things i have to say inaccurate

but yeah tldr it developed as some sort of a weird coping mechanism ig

[apenitentialprayer]

Honi the Circle Maker, by Chana Rivka Burke

An incident occurred in which the people said to Ḥoni HaMe'aggel: "Pray that rain should fall." He said to them: "Go and bring in the clay ovens used to roast the Paschal lambs, so hat they will not dissolve in the water, as torrential rains are certain to fall." He prayed, and no rain fell at all. What did he do? He drew a circle on the ground and stood inside it and said before God: "Master of the Universe, Your children have turned their faces toward me, as I am like a member of Your household. Therefore, I take an oath by Your great Name that I will not move from here until You have mercy upon Your children and answer their prayers for rain." Rain began to trickle down, but only in small droplets. He said: "I did not ask for this, but for rain to fill the cisterns, ditches, and caves with enough water to last the entire year." Rain began to fall furiously. He said: "I did not ask for this damaging rain, either, but for rain of benevolence, blessing, and generosity. Subsequently, the rains fell in their standard manner but continued unabated, filling the city with water until all of the Jews exited the residential areas of Jerusalem and went to the Temple Mount due to the rain. They came and said to him: "Just as you prayed over the rains that they should fall, so too pray that they should stop." He said to them: "Go out and see if the Claimants' Stone" —a large stone located in the city, upon which the proclamations would be posted with regard to lost and found articles— "has been washed away." (In other words, if the water has not obliterated the Claimants' Stone, it is not yet appropriate to pray for the rain to cease.) Shimon ben Shetaḥ, the Nasi of the Sanhedrin at the time, relayed to Ḥoni HaMe'aggel: "Were you not Ḥoni, I would have decreed that you be ostracized, but what can I do to you? You nag God and He does your bidding, like a son who nags his father and his father does his bidding without reprimand. After all, rain fell as you requested."

Tractate Ta'anit 19a:6b-9a

Hyrcanus then began his high priesthood […] when presently [his younger brother] Aristobulus began to make war against him, and as it came to a battle with Hyrcanus at Jericho, many of his soldiers deserted him, and went over to his brother; upon which Hyrcanus fled into the citadel, where Aristobulus's wife and children were imprisoned by their mother, as we have said already, and attacked and overcame those of his adversaries that had fled thither, and lay within the walls of the Temple. [...] Now there was one, whose name was Onias [Greek for Ḥoni]; a righteous man he was, and beloved of God, who, in a certain drought, had prayed to God to put an end to the intense heat, and whose prayers God had heard, and had sent them rain. This man had hid himself, because he saw that this sedition would last a great while. However, they brought him to the Judean camp, and desired that, as by his prayers he had once put an end to the drought, so he would in like manner make imprecations on Aristobulus and those of his faction. And when, upon his refusal, and the excuses that he made, he was still by the multitude compelled to speak, he stood up in the midst of them and said, "O God, the King of the whole world! Since those that stand now with me are Thy people, and those that are besieged are also Thy priests, I beseech Thee, that Thou wilt neither hearken to the prayers of those against these, nor bring to effect what these pray against those." Whereupon such wicked Judeans as stood about him, as soon as he had made this prayer, stoned him to death.

Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (XIV.1.2, XIV.2.1)

[hyperpotamianarch]

So, for the time being, I pretty much dominate the #alternate jewish history tag. By which I mean, all posts under this tag are ones I either wrote or reblogged. This is, of course, meaningless. Even so, I intend to take care of this little corner of my supposed kingdom, though invaders are fully invited. Please, it would be my pleasure if you add to this tag.

Either way, this tag currently has three AUs. As the purported owner of this tag, I intend to list them - while tagging the original creator when necessary.

The first AU is going to be the one I conceived of, naturally, since there can be no ownership disputations of it: the Jewsade.

The Jewsade is an AU based on the historical divergence of His Dark Materials. However, it's an AU worth exploring for its own merit IMO. Its divergence point is around the 1520s, with the Jewish false Messiah David Reubeni and Shəlomoh Molcho. In our world those two ended up eventually killed by the Spanish Inquisition; in the world of the Jewsade, they succeeded in getting the artillery David was trying to obtain and used it to conquer Eretz Yisra'el from the Ottomans. What happened with it later? Currently it's a riddle I can't answer, possibilities range from a disaster by the hands of the Ottoman Empire or Portugal to the continued existence of a Jewish kingdom in the Middle East, barely holding its own against both Christians and Muslims who want to take the Holy Land to themselves. Exploration of it is still at work, and I'm considering presenting it in random documents of various sorts from the period. It doesn't currently have a clear masterpost, I might work on that in the future.

The second AU I've put under this tag belongs to @aviad1b. This is the Hasmonean independence AU. It's not too well-built as of yet (and might also be related to the next AU, we'll see), but the basics are: the Hasmoneans don't give up their independence to the Romans and remain a kingdom for longer. This is a bit of a hard feat, because the Hasmoneans were sort of allies to the Romans even prior to that and the civil war is what caused them to turn to a passing Roman general to solve the dispute. After you avoid that... well, the Hasmonean dynasty still needs to keep its independence between the ever-greedy Rome and the rising Perthian empire, which is not going to be easy by any means. Even if they manage surviving one civil war... well, there will be others. However, it might be interesting to picture them somehow still prevailing, despite all the odds.

The third and more recent addition comes from @magnetothemagnificent's idea of a world where the 2nd Temple was never destroyed, the 2nd Temple Still Standing AU as I chose to call it, if you have different suggestions I'm open to hear them. A lot of the discussion on it includes the note of how much we don't know what the world will look like. Christianity might not exist, or be way smaller. The Jewish Diaspora would be way smaller adn would be mostly merchants. New technologies would be applied to old traditions and sometimes adjusted to them - the beacons to indicate the start of the month will stay, but their role would be fulfilled more with modern communication technology; flights to Eretz Yisra'el will commonly have space for cattle for the Korbanot; Cohanim would dominate the field of dermatology in order to be experts on Tzara`at, some working in construction (and some with textiles?) for the other types of it as well; religious institutions will be vastly different, with structures from 2 milennia ago surviving to the Modern Day in some form; Levyim maybe being dominant in fields of music and poetry; maybe melodies used for written texts in the place of punctuation; no written Mishnah or Talmud, things are mostly kept oral; and a lot more stuff.

There's the question, with that latter AU, of how that might happen. No rebellion against the Romans might be a possibility, though a bit hard to pull up. The Hasmonean Dynasty retaining independence can help, hence the reference I've made earlier. The Great Rebellion could also (maybe) fail before it escalated to the level of besiegeing Jerusalem. I really don't know. And unless you go by the "History is a rubber band" theory of time travel, there really isn't any way to know. So I suppose we should all just think about it a little more, and making stuff up can work, as long as you keep an eye on historical events.

Now, you might accuse me of certain hautiness in writing this. Please don't. Believe me when I say, I'm just enthusiastic about alternative Jewish histories, and would like to popularize the use of that tag. I would really like seeing farther AUs based on Jewish history - I had the pleasure to encounter a couple on Facebook, following a workshop on writing alternate Hannukahs in a meet-up organized by a group of interest on Jewish Fantasy in Israel. But there can be many more, and while I would love to contribute where I can and where my help is wanted, I prefer not to start any more than the one I'm already working on. So thank you to all the participants.

Note: the reblog chain for the Hasmonean Independence AU I shared here is only an exchange between me and Aviad. However, the 2nd Temple Still Standing thread includes (beside my and Magnetothemagnificent's posts) contributions from @alyssumlovesthecosmere and @fromchaostocosmos, hope you don't mind I'm tagging you as well.

[ljf613]

Song of the Day 12/8/23: "Hasmonean (A Hamilton Hanukkah)" - The Maccabeats

How does a Hasmonean, son of a priest And a Hebrew, raised in a village with his four brothers In a Judean province ruled by pompous king Antiochus Under pressure, grow up to be a hero and commander?

[zchug]

Part 207: 20th February (Sunday) 1967 approx 5.30pm

Have been running a cold since last Wednesday. Mood of mild depression, immediately checked by thoughts of how much worse, etc. – Mark Sugarman in hospital. Something wrong with his buttocks. Painful, humiliating… Not all honey at H.G.S., though I still can’t see it not being tolerably viable, whereas at Friern Barnet (or any other Sec Mod. or Comprehensive school) viability would be…

[israelmaps]

Map showing:

• Dotted line - Area of earliest Jewish settlement (12 tribes of Israel)

• Bold line - Jewish kingdom at the time of Solomon

• Orange line - Hasmonean Jewish kingdom, 165-63 BCE