#god imagine if meenah had won

[badlydrawnjohn]

JOHN WIN

[nekropsii]

…I swear to God, why have like half the Beforan players tried to bone someone significantly younger than them??? Probably because the author’s a creep who got a kick out of it, but still, between what was just discussed with Rufioh, Aranea trying to hit on Jake, Cronus trying to bone his dancestor (jesus fuck) and Meenah dating a physically 13-year-old Vriska… that’s a THIRD of the dancestors? And those are just the four I’m aware of, I would be very disappointed but not at all surprised if there was a fifth.

Honestly, adults having inappropriate relationships with children is just a heavily recurring theme in Homestuck... It's not really all that surprising when you take a step back. Doc Scratch, Hussie's own self insert, Bro Strider... They're all much older than the Alpha Trolls are, and are creepy towards the Betas in some way.

Further discussion going under the cut.

Content Warning: Discussion of Sexual Assault, Harassment, and Pedophilia.

... Man, I'm having to write about this topic a lot lately, aren't I? This isn't even close to the only ask left in my inbox about something adjacent to this. It's kind of... Flattering, in the weirdest way possible? I don't know, I'm often approached for my opinions on some of the much more serious and dark aspects of Homestuck. Things that people don't really know, or talk about, or address- like the racism issues, Dave's CSA, et cetera. It's not really prestigious, I don't think, but it does require a level of trust in maturity and literacy. I appreciate it.

Anyways, this is mostly going to be me adding to and even debunking your ask here. I think this subject both deserves and requires specificity. It's an extremely emotionally charged topic, so peoples imaginations tend to get a little... Carried away, when they don't know the full extent to what's happening. Considering how it's not easy to term search things said by most of the Alpha Trolls, and some people really just do not want to/cannot interact with things relating to Child Harm and Abuse... There's bound to be both a lack of information and an excess of misinformation. It's understandable, but... Deeply annoying for me in particular. Lol.

Let's do this.

---

The inclusion of Rufioh in this is both correct and based on some of my own posting on the matter. Rufioh was hitting on Aradiabot, who is 13, because she reminded him of Damara... Specifically remarking upon how she's "just like the real thing". Charming...

Here's where I'm going to supply a debunk: Aranea did not try to hit on Jake, and he is not significantly younger than her. That's a pretty ugly misconception. She's 19, and he is 16. She had zero romantic or sexual feelings towards Jake. Yes, she tried to kiss him once... Because she knew that he was attracted to her and assumed he'd appreciate her making a move on him. This was part of her little scheme to make him Hope-splode. She never did actually kiss him, and there was genuinely no consent violations involved in the situation- he told her to stop before she could, and she did. It was just a misunderstanding. It happens. If you're still put off by that age gap, that's fair and entirely respectable, but that's not "significantly younger", and the situation wasn't really objectively creepy.

... Cronus is... Fucking gross. His whole gimmick is that he is "The Worst Character in Homestuck", and boy does he succeed at it. He won that title. Earned it. Absolutely flying colors. He tried to "get with" Karkat, Tavros, and Eridan. By which I mean he stalked Karkat all the way to his house and then tried to break into it, got really handsy with Tavros in the middle of a crowd, and... Sexually assaulted Eridan- his own flesh and blood!- also in the middle of a crowd. All of these kids are 13 years old, and his main character trait is "Sexual Assault + Harassment". No one's free. Not even literal children! Cronus counts as a full-blown Pedophile, by the way!! There's your fun fact for the day.

Then there's Meenah, who had her whole thing with (Vriska), who was 13. Not just physically, but mentally, too. She was just 13. That was a whole arc, so it doesn't really need much elaborating upon, I hope.

---

That's... Just about it, I think? That's all I remember, anyway, as far as the Alpha Troll Age Gap Weirdness goes. So... Only 3 of them are really problems in that respect, which is 1/4th of the cast. Still an upsetting amount, but not... As bad as 1/3rd, as far as optics goes.

In full honesty, it's kind of funny to me how the Alpha Trolls who have overtly sexual theming are... Pretty normal about kids. Damara's nice to them and nobody else, we've got zero reason to suspect Mituna of anything, and Porrim's just chilling. It's accurate, if anything.

Hopefully this has been fun and/or informative. Have a lovely day.

[bladekindeyewear]

Boots Reads Homestuck Epilogue(s) Part 13 - Candy Page 23

==>

This is going well, despite all the weirdness... it might not be so bad by the time I get to the end of all this.  Maybe my stomach can stop clenching as much from the Meat poisoning.

Then again, that’s what I thought when I was up to four-fifths through Meat and thought things were going to be resolved before the end.

So.

Anyway.  Reading.

In fact, all she did was tip her head at him and blink a few times, her long eyelashes catching the light, making her eyes look like mirrors. It was disconcerting for reasons that he couldn’t put his finger on. It’s not like Roxy had ever been argumentative, exactly. He just seems to remember someone from his youth who was somewhat more contrarian in spirit than this person he’s married to now.

God damnit... hypnotized, basically dead Roxy is worst Roxy.  I need that fucking explanation soon.

If she doesn’t get upset after what he’s about to pull today, then...

John doesn’t know what he’ll do.

Gosh that’s horrible.  I wish I didn’t have to go back to Meat if I ever wanted any more Real Roxy again... please, PLEASE, if NOTHING ELSE gets fixed in this stupid fucking Candy arc, PLEASE HAVE ROXY BACK TO NORMAL BEFORE THE END

That... that would be just the fucking icing on the cake, wouldn’t it?  I was already upset about Dirk not getting his due.  I was traumatized over how Jane, Jade, and Rose were left.  But ROXY was fine.  Roxy, pretty much my favorite character next to maybe Jade, or a good number of the others.  If this timeline gives me an alternate cliffhanger to lean on that spares the others to leave HER to shit, then I’d basically be left with nothing to stand on!  It’d be fucking worthless almost.

My stomach isn’t clenching YET, but I’m starting to fill with dread.

JOHN: harry anderson, don’t tell your mother but... JOHN: we’re getting a new addition to the family today!

Pfffff

serious kidnapping

And who said John was just a blank slate with no will of his own?? Fuck you, Dirk.  You knew about this timeline and you STILL said it.

Dave and Jade materialize behind everyone, he in a pressed red suit, she in a glittering Space dress. They’re both holding gifts wrapped in spare printer paper.

Look, you two looking cute is just rubbing salt in the wound of the relationship you fucked over, Jade.  You should have waited to make sure Dave and Karkat FINALLY ACCEPTED THEIR FUCKING RELATIONSHIP before moving in and potentially pushing one of them out, WHICH HAPPENED.

Oooh, smart human babby Tavvy.  ...He isn’t going to want to leave his family situation, is he.  John’s off the mark isn’t he.

Dave ruffles Harry Anderson’s hair. It’s nice that Dave is so woke and great with kids, but that really does invite the question of why he and Jade don’t have any yet. There’s still something sad and wistful about Dave at the moment, as he pointedly avoids letting Jade take his hand while they’re led into the game room.

GAAAAHHHHH

Could we at least BE ALLOWED TO PRETEND THERE’S A POSSIBLE FUTURE WHERE THESE PEOPLE’S RELATIONSHIPS ARENT THOROUGHLY FUCKING MESSED UP?????

I KNOW THESE CHARACTERS ARE MESSED UP BUT YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST GIVE US HOPE

AND WHERE’S THE HAPPY POTENTIAL PAIRING FOR JADE??? IT SEEMS LIKE THERE’S NO POTENTIAL FOR REAL MUTUAL HAPPINESS FOR HER BESIDES JADE X COMA!!!!!!!!!!

X(

God damn it Jane can be creepy.

She gained his affection the same way she gains everyone’s affection: she fucking bought it.

UUuuuuuuggghhhhh

...pff stars vs enemies of the state

John, stop making this so stranger-danger.

JOHN: are you ACTUALLY happy about it? JOHN: about... everything going on here? TAVROS: I suppose,,, TAVROS: My mother tends to get displeased when i’m unhappy, so,,,

uuuugughghghuhh

TAVROS: It just seems like a thing that would eventually happen to me, does it not?

D:

Oh wow, callback to Dirkbro abuse.  THAT’S gonna set John off.

Oh wow, Tavros knows his situation is bad enough that he’s willing to GO for it. All he’s worried about is the security.  YEAH John!!  Do your Breathy thing and get him out of here!!!

Tavros takes in a sharp breath before spinning on his heel and stumbling toward his closet. John catches the ghost of a smile on his face before he turns and that’s all it takes to turn the pounding of his heart from terrified to thrilled.

AAaaaaAAAAAH THIS IS ADORABLE SOMEHOW

She twitches her dog-ears and raises her face. Her mouth is a neutral line, but her eyes are burning furiously.

OH NOOOOOOO

FUCK, Jade don’t stop it!!! She’s... she’s gonna put her foot down and stop this just so everything can be all candy-coated and good on the SURFACE without hurting people OPENLY even if she and Jane and all the others are DEEPLY hurting everyone else under the surface!!!! D:

JOHN: jade, i don’t know where you’ve been these past few years, but i don’t think things CAN get any worse!

Yes exactly

JOHN: but there isn’t one, because everyone’s been all... brainwashed by marriage, or whatever the hell happened over the last few years that made things be this way!

Hmmmmmm

JOHN: well, you’re nothing like the jade i used to know either!

D:

Alright, huge blowup. Let’s air out some feelings.

JANE: I let go! I was actually RELIEVED to hear he died!!! ROXY: uhh ROXY: janey wut

HAhahahaah YES let’s get all that dirty laundry OUT IN THE OPEN

......Okay that didn’t end as well as expected.  Or... well I guess I KNEW it wouldn’t end well, but I’d hoped otherwise.

==>

Wait, so Terezi and John’s conversation is “in the dream bubbles”? Is that just because he’s talking to her while she’s skirting the edge of the storm in the Void rocketways, or because John’s from a somehow doomed/irrelevant/side timeline?

(Why does Terezi always have to be dying.  She figured herself out and how awesome she is.  Stop dying.  And I don’t mean like the sad walking off in Meat, though I guess that kind of counts.)

JOHN: if she cared about you as much as you care about her, she wouldn’t have fucked off like this forever.

YES JOHN

LAY

ON

THE

TRUTH

(Ghost!Vriska is the only one who really deserves to matter anymore.  This “alpha” Vriska just sank deeper into her problems and delusions beyond being able to really redeem herself or recognize them.  That diatribe she gave her ghost self was horrible back when.)

Wait, wait hold on

JOHN: if she cared about you as much as you care about her, she wouldn’t have fucked off like this forever. JOHN: driving you crazy with doubt and uncertainty, making you chase her through infinite nothingness until you almost starve to death... JOHN: she would have at least given you the courtesy of closure!

Is... is Andrew talking about the comic here and his relationship with the readers

is this some sort of apology for not giving this closure, like, as if he were the vriska that launched himself into the sun over his own artistic ideals or

hmm

JADE: doomed is not a word i would use to describe the condition of those on this world. JADE: even if my work is unsuccessful, the stakes for everyone here have nothing to do with the issue of mortality. JADE: to frame the matter that way would be misleading. JADE: to the extent that it is my naturally endowed duty to defend the innocent from wanton acts of destruction, from degradation and dissolution, JADE: it is also my duty to tell the truth to those i protect. JADE: and the simplest statement of truth for all of you to know is this: JADE: we are the lucky ones.

Calliope lets out a long, thin sigh from between the teeth of Jade’s corpse. It’s more for effect than anything, as corpses don’t actually need to breathe.

JADE: we are the ones fortunate enough to live in a reality that is beyond the influence of the prince.

Geez, it’s like escape from Lord English’s influence all over again.

They won only for everything to just fucking start over, everything they struggled to stop?  That sucks!!!  >:(

Anyway, still reading... god damnit Terezi don’t fly off and die for no fucking reason.

JOHN: then what DID you want?! TEREZI: L3TS S4Y... TEREZI: 1 JUST W4NT3D TO G1V3 YOU TH3 COURT3SY OF CLOSUR3

Fuck.  Yeah, let’s just keep fucking over Terezi, another one of my favorite characters.  Yes she lives and goes to fuck off somewhere in Meat with the villain of the week, but FUCK, couldn’t we get a SLIGHTLY clearer picture of her potential happiness than just THAT?????

It’s like the whole purpose of these epilogues was just to remind us that these characters were too fucked up to ever be happy!!!!

Couldn’t we have at least been left to IMAGINE OTHERWISE?!?????

JADE: not until i am able to deal with the prince myself. ARADIA: and when will that be

The meteor is passing beyond the fall of night. Dead-Jade, standing half in light, half in darkness, looks up at the sky.

JADE: not soon enough.

Ahh.  I’m getting an idea of the Postscript’s circumstances, then.  That was alt!Callie in this black-hole-powered Jade body going from THIS Candy timeline to go chase after Dirk and help stop him like everyone else, giving her a more powerful card to play than just the adult Jade she was having guide the others. (Maybe she could have that adult Jade FUCKING WAKE UP AND ABLE TO HELP instead of keeping her in a coma. That would be a pretty fucking nice change of pace.  Too bad we have to just IMAGINE IT without any reassurance that she’ll be awake or okay for YEARS TO COME, HUH.)

Also that means that resistance fighting is gonna break out with artillery and stuff because Jane is apparently a dunpass in both timelines.  Fuck.

==>

Swifer, can you stop swifing?

KARKAT: HOW THE HELL DO YOU TWO TOLERATE EACH OTHER? KANAYA: Quite Thoroughly Enthusiastically And Often

Pffffff :D

...Oh my God MEENAH landed here???  All ring-of-lifeways from the other timeline?  I guess the Furthest Ring was outside the scope of those timeilnes so she could’ve fallen in any of them... huh.  Heck, maybe the same Terezi who experienced those conversations eventually met the John from the Meat side of the timeline too.  And she said John smelled younger than she thought he was, oh my GOD, it WAS that.  It was that exactly.  The Terezi we’re hearing was the same across both Epilogue-halves.  That’s actually fucking fantastic!!!

MEENAH: capisces?

Fuck that pun

(Also Meenah is talking about how they lost, but she was knocked away before she saw the conclusion of the fight, so.)

...Holy SHIT Meenah is really taking to this!!! This is adorable.  :D

==>

John’s having some canon/existential ditherthoughts, hm.

He’s been contemplating this melodramatically for maybe ten minutes when the sky rips opens above him and flashes violent waves of red and green across the landscape.

Hm.  So do the black hole wormholes have some tie to the cherubic portal device from Hiveswap?

It’s his father’s car.

Mhmm, that confirms all of it, really.  Same Terezi in both stories.

A vast cry of sorts.  :(

Heading out for a while; gonna start from Page 27 in the next post.  I feel pretty good, somehow.  The way these two timelines tied together with Terezi outside them makes it feel like it all may have ultimately meant something.

[dottenator]

@hussie

Respectfully....

WHAT THE FUCK

One little note before I begin my serious thoughts: Hussie how could you kill the Mayor? It absolutely pales in comparison to everyting else, but come on dude.

I'm gonna try to work out my frustrations in the order I read these, meat and then candy, so....

Meat

How dare you do this to Dirk.

That's the thing which keeps sticking to me, honestly. They won! The game is over, Dirk has friends who love him, why this?? Why is Dirk destined to go completely nuts and do such horrible and awful things, ciolating the mental autonomy of everyone he supposedly cares about? Jake and Jane's feelings in the earlier parts of the epilogue, before the meddling becomes so overt, are significantly more creepy and invasive once it becomes clear that Dirk is making them think like this. The way they break down with his influence removed is horrifying. Dirk is such a fantastic character and I'm supposed to accept that he never grows out of thinking he can control everyone? That I'm not allowed an epilogue in which he calms the fuck down and lets himself not be in charge? I don't care at this point of that's considered wish fulfillment, give him a HAPPY ENDING for once. Not this bullshit. I'm not even gonna call that ~~Ultimate Self~~ thing by the name of the character I love. He doesn't deserve this.

Rose and Kanaya were our one good thing, and then this?? Dirk fucks with Rose's autonomy and fragile mental state to trick her away from her wife forever? The Rosemary wedding was the best thing about the original snapchat epilogue. The two of them are perfect for each other, they were happy god damn it, and I don't like any brand of storytelling that decides to split up the immortal god lesbians for pointless egotistical drama. Kanaya's fury and grief when she's allowed control over her own thoughts again is the most terrifying thing, because it really shows just how far from their understood, canon selves they really were in this epilogue. (The use of the word canon is really touchy to me after All This, but atm it's the best way to describe "the characterization we all know and love from previously established sources")

Everyone died beating English. Sure, why not. All the ghosts, Vriska, the teen kids, John everyone. It makes me unbelievably sad to imagine any of them dying (maybe not the ghosts), but with all the rest of this steaming pile of bullshit characterization I'm almost numb to it. Terezi is refreshingly real, still herself and completely believable, but when she gets back to Earth C she just. Doesn't talk to anyone? Doesn't get in touch with John or Karkat, doesn't tell anyone at all that John is dead? Why??? I'm baffled here. There's no closure to anything about Terezi here, except her personal emotions on Vriska, and who knows how valid that catharsis is with the fucking mind control narrative device everywhere. Also, fuck Hussie for making me read anyone claiming that John isn't important, or relevant, or an incredible and unique character. Was the Candy postscript supposed to imply she ended up with Dirk and Rose?? Why??? What the fuck is even going on here?????

Dave and Karkat were usually a balm to the whole bullshit, but like everything else they too are tainted by the overwhelming lack of consent in this whole epilogue. Do I think Dave and Karkat are a cute couple who should be together? Yeah. Do I think it should happen like that? Fuck no!!! They're both clearly uncomfortable with the whole situation, it all feels like an incredible violation of privacy and consent, and then right at the end it implies that Karkat isn't comfortable with how it happened and is oushing Dave away because of it! Like, fuck!!! This isn't what anyone wanted to happen! Let them figure themselves out on their own terms, with no weird narrative devices pushing them into it. Who cares how long it takes, they're all immortal!!!!!

Roxy is a cornerstone honestly. The narrative can't touch him, and I love him for it. Good for him. I really don't have anything to say on Roxy in meat, he's just fine, due largely to his immunity to the narrative bullshit.

Jane.......... I'm not sure. The bits from her point of view (though it's really unclear how much is her and how much is the narrative's influence) paint her as having some kind of reason for her troll-related policies, but really? There's no excuse for them. What the FUCK, Jane. Why does her entire future have to be molded by the influence of Condy? Can't we have a future without uncomfortable Trump parallels and the assertation that a beloved character is an asshole who wants to quash the rights of an entire species? Please Hussie I'm so tired.

Jake just makes me sad tbh. Don't have a lot to say on him. The narrative has been abusing him since Act 6 started, and the new narrative doesn't let up. Give this boy a break, I'm begging you.

In conclusion on Meat:

The parts where the muse is in charge, or where the narrative steps back and allows the characters to be themselves, are amazing. Fuck everything else, and fuck Hussie for making me read it. I'm too mad to think straight.

Candy

How dare you do this, to any of them?

The first heartbreak of Candy is Roxy/Calliope. John/Roxy is a sweet enough ship, but at what cost? They were so happy together, amd even John repeatedly points out in his internal monologue that it doesn't feel right to break them up. His conversation with Dave about sexuality and love is incredible, and up to chapter 14 the Roxy and Callir issue seemed to be the only sticking point in a much happier version

Then Dirk dies, and really? Really??? Fuck you. Fuck you for making me read that Dirk Strider would choose to end his own life when he realizes that he can no longer <i>control the minds of his friends and family</i>. That's fucked up in a million different directions. Fuck you.

Every songle thing Gamzee does makes me feel physically unclean. Is this supposed ti be a parody of poorly written fix-it fanfiction? A deconstruction of redemption arcs as a concept? It wasn't needed! Homestuck has redemption arcs already, Vriska and (Vriska) in particular bandied the idea around and deconstructed it fairly well, all of John's retcon powers were a fix-it fic, was ANY OF THIS BULLSHIT necessary??? It's a disgrace to the person Gamzee was before he went insane, and to everyone forced to read through his awful, awful dialogue.

Roxy was difficult to read in this epilogue, coming straight out of meat where Roxy was confident in himself and hid place in the world, then on to this Roxy who felt subtly wrong right up until her final conversation with John when we get her point of view on everything that's happened. Still mad about the Straight Married Babies Ever After, but Roxy at least is still #real, and I can respect her and her choices. (Except the ones involving Gamzee and funerals. I acknowledge that being weird about funerals is a known Roxy trait, but come on. Really??)

John feels like the point of view character again in Candy. He's the only one who seems to notice that something isn't quite right, his conversations with Terezi are incredible when they aren't slapping me in the face with the not-so-subtle wrongness of this universe, and his reconciliations with Roxy and Jake at the end are beautiful. I love that he at least tried to help little Tavros, no matter how it turned out, because he's a good fucking person!

Jake is a mixed bag. Am I happy with how he's treated in the first three quarters of the epilogue? Oh FUCK no. An I happy that he finally gets to be free by the end and be his own fucking person for once in his life? Absolutely. Give the boy some agency, and some GOD DAMN PANTS.

Jade honestly doesn't..... Do much? Either plot-wose or for me emotionally. She isn't in the epilogue much except as an obstacle for Davekat, which is really rude to everyone involved. I barely remember a time when I shipped DaveJade, and I don't think I ever shipped JadeKat, but after Meat I'd really hoped that that triad could work itself out. They had the potential to really be happy. Then it didn't, and she's never going to know why her husband didn't come back from investigating that strange building, unless she followed and found his corpse, dead for no apparent reason and not capable of being revived. I'm not sure which is worse. At least one of those has some kind of closure.

Karkat I actually really like in Candy. He stands up for himself, apparently finds love with Meenah, founds a moderately successful rebellion. Good For Him.

Dave is a clusterfuck of emotions, as always. Am I happy about his relationship with Jade? Not really, it seems by the end like he forced himself into it, thinking it was the right thing to do more than actually wanting it. Am I happy he got to meet and talk to Obama? Absolutely, though there is then the whole can of worms which is the canon Condy backstory. Not even touching that. After the speculation in Meat I'm thrilled to find out Obama did in fact god tier and escape the destruction of the universe. Dave is gay, he loves/loved Karkat, he's off to be the ~~Ultimate~~ version of himself and save the multiverse in the Meat postscript. Good For Him. (Also I can't be the only one who thinks Obama meant he and Dirk Fucked. Did that really happen? Did I dream that up??)

Rose and Kanaya were good too. Am I thrilled they found and raised Vriska 2.0? No. Am I happy they got to grow older together, immortal lesbian gods who are deeply in love? 10 million percent yes. Rose thanking John for the happy times with her family moved me. It didn't make it all worth it, but it helped soothe the burn this epilogue left on my soul.

Aside: I'm glad all the dead trolls are here? They're not double dead, this universe is somehow inside the black hole I guess (?), the generic dead (and Meenah and (Vriska)) get to do other shit too. Meenah/Karkat is sweet, Vriska got to kill Gamzee once and for all, I'm okay with that sequence of events.

Aradia and Sollux showing up made my day, I'm not gonna lie. They're great and hilarious. Alt!Callie's explanation of how a narrator's motives can shape a story helped me come to terms with Meat, as well as being just a fantastic bit of meta discussion.

That really just leaves Jane........

I'm not happy. Sweet baker girl is a tyrannical and genocidal despot?? No thanks. Abusive, xenophobic, asshole Jane, basically new Condy with a twist, is not something I'n gonna accept. The only time I sympathized with her at all was when her father died, and that was more for his sake than anything else. (Side note: where the fuck was he in Meat??)

In conclusion on Candy:

I don't know how anything could be as bad as Meat, but this is. Somehow. The light parts were lighter, but everything had a fundamental wrongness to it, and I couldn't be satisfied with any of it. At least Callie said none of it is canon, and she only stuck around to kill English once and for all and fix the narrative of Meat.

In Conclusion

Hussie, come out and fight me you COWARD.