#god FORBID an autistic teen is. you know. an autistic teen who acts different from the neurotypicals around him. | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

rpbetter · 3 years ago

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Urgh. Okay, full disclosure, I haven't been on tumblr much over the last week or so, because I was one of the people that Raven initially called out after the COAR mess, and it was in the interest of my own mental health to fuck off for a while so I didn't stress myself out into oblivion. So I'm scrolling through most of this stuff for the first time, and talking to other people who were targeted. And pardon my French here, but I'm fucking disgusted at the lengths Raven has gone to assert themselves as a victim, how many people they've affected, and the waving around of something as serious as suicide for brownie points.

I have sympathy for people who overinterpret things in a strictly emotional and mental sense (actual reactions aside) because they lack the maturity. There's always a reason for that, and it's not their fault. And I have sympathy for people if they legitimately feel suicidal. That, too, isn't their fault. If I hadn't been blocked, I would've reported Raven in case their claims were true as well, because yeah, I don't mess around with that stuff either. But what's unacceptable is how Raven acted on those sentiments and behaved towards others, even after people tried to provide perspective. How Raven claimed to be done with the drama, but continued inciting it; how they claimed to be suicidal and had left tumblr, but wrote what amounts to a "fuck you" in their header and were still putzing around on their blog, and were apparently still editing their posts until as late as today; how they claimed to have deleted but only changed the url; how they weaponized all of this stuff and used it as a tool for guilt-tripping. Like, come on. It's okay if you're down in the dumps, but it's not okay to treat innocent people like garbage, and carpet bomb half the RPC. To me, it really feels like there was an intent to weaponize all of their hurt, offense, anger, and suicidal ideations, despite the possibility it did come from somewhere genuine, and that's so harmful to anyone who is actually struggling with depression.

Every time someone weaponizes mental illness in this way, it just makes people more and more apathetic the next time someone is genuinely just hurting, and saying they feel like they're at the end of their rope. And it makes people suspicious of whether those words are being used maliciously, or legitimately. That suspicion and that association is now there, unconscious or not. And every time this kind of stuff happens, the association gets stronger. What happens if Raven does this again? Some people will still report, but some people might just scoff and walk away - people who might've actually acted before. So in a way, that kind of behaviour impacts Raven as much as it impacts other people.

And you know what? They're not the only one dealing with serious shit. I've been suffering from MDD for the last fifteen years, and I've been in the process of changing medications and having little success for months. I've been going through hell offline. I have a shit list of people I want to yell at because they're dragging their feet on really important things I need to function; I'm constantly running a deficit on spoons. Until a week or so ago, roleplay was one of the only ways I could unwind. So for Raven to bully me by sticking that stupid post in my tags, because they needed to make a scene on COAR, which I was obviously going to comment on (like many other people), then to "like" an unsubstantiated callout about me and other innocent people related to that mess, it's only worsened my own mental health. It sounds melodramatic, but really. Someone else mentioned this too, but the fear of being in another callout, and the fear of that first callout somehow exploding, was in the back of my mind all week, despite being away from tumblr. So that was a little anxiety-inducing, much as I tried not to think about it.

And I'm debating whether to return now, or take more time off, and I have no idea what to do. Because that callout post is still in my blog's tag. I'm freaking out because I was planning on approaching some people to roleplay, which is something I rarely ever do, but now I'm concerned that I'll contact someone, they'll look at my tag to get an idea of my writing/partners/who I am, and see the callout post, and immediately dismiss me because even seeing the word "callout" on its own will send up red flags, by unconscious association with more impactful drama. And as long as that callout is up, these fears are going to be there.

That's just not fair.

And Raven's "apology" is completely unacceptable. Like you and others said, it doesn't reach anyone who needs to hear it, because they've all been blocked. I would fucking love an apology if it came from a place of honesty, but am I going to receive one? Probably not. And even for the followers who can still see that apology, it doesn't address anything. It isn't directed to anyone in particular. It doesn't mention the specific behaviours that were wrong on their part. And miss me with the "my intentions were good" part. No, they weren't; going around blocks and sticking shit in peoples' tags is vindictive and entirely intentional in all the worst ways, and shame on them for pretending otherwise, and by leading with such a poor example for many roleplayers, some of whom are in their teens. One of the people who tried to message Raven (they, too, were called out on Raven's blog) was speaking to a nineteen-year old who was completely clueless about the extent of the manipulation Raven was pulling. They thought all of it was normal and acceptable behaviour. That genuinely terrifies me. And while I imagine if Raven was genuinely apologetic, they would've gone to the callout blog and ask them to delete the callout post (attempt it, at the very least), somehow, I don't think that would've happened given all of their prior actions. God forbid something else is going on there.

Phew. Yeah, I'm angry. Maybe I'm just biased and tired. But honestly, I have a right to be. Raven's apology is a handwave, and they know it. It's a slap in the face to me, to you, and to everyone else who was involved in this clusterfuck. They're not the center of the universe. They affected real people, with real problems of their own. Anyways, I am so sorry for this, argh. Really had to get this out, and I didn't want to dump it on discord or somewhere else; I sure as heck didn't want to go to COAR with it. But hey, maybe people here will feel less alone if I added my own account to the mix. The more, the merrier? In a sense, anyways. Sometimes if you feel like you've been singled out, it's nice to know you're not actually the only person it's happened to.

Sorry for saving your reply for last, Anon. It's such an important one, I wanted to be properly thoughtful!

I think that it is going to make some people feel less alone, and there is always some relief in sharing one's trials. That might be especially true when one has been unable to share them anywhere else. It's not like you can address this on your own blog right now, COAR is definitely not a safe place to do so, it's a very isolating feeling that is made worse for having done nothing.

Coming back and being required to wade through this shit was really damn disgusting to me as well, but at least in my case, I had neither been obliged to distance myself for the sake of mental health nor was I treated to the sickening display of drumming up ideas of victimization from someone who victimized me. What I experienced was just incredulity and disgust, I cannot imagine how incensing this must be for you, I am so very sorry. If it makes me angry having a degree of removal and watching in it real time? What you're experiencing...there really isn't a single word to adequately encapsulate that, I'm sure.

You've still expressed so many of the things I've thought and felt. I found all that initial behavior uncalled for, shameful, yet another display of what's actually wrong in the RPC, but it was increasingly upsetting to me the more I looked into it because it did feel a little (a lot) too reminiscent of the sort of bullying experienced in person. It's really something else to be viciously picked at by someone who keeps upping the game until such point as it begins to cause them trouble, then get to be painted the wrongdoer and punished in some way for it because they're presenting as a sympathetic victim. A more sympathetic victim than you, that's really what I mean, I'm just going to say it.

And that was already in swing by the time I got from the launch point to the smoking crater of then current events. I got to Raven's again after bouncing back and forth between their interactions with others, largely from COAR, yes, and the shit on the callout blog...to see...everyone else being blamed in increasingly drastic ways.

Because on tumblr, unlike reality, if you throw out enough times ahead of time that you have disorders people can get behind, you're more sympathetic, not less. So long as one has set that foundation and has others to broadcast it once convenient, any horrible action one undertakes is given a pass. Anyone disagreeing, anyone not tolerating the abuse, is in the wrong now. In the worst possible way, of course.

This whole thing began with incredibly unnecessary bullshit and every, I mean fucking every, further action taken was a new level of fucked up, but the trivializing of and damage done to the perception of mental health and differences is quite possibly the worst. Are those things that need any more of that? It's already such a problem! I already see suspicion and fatigue with this, every time it's given validation, it grows.

Even if I wasn't mentally ill, with one of the disorders that gets vilified even on tumblr, even if I were not autistic, even if I never knew a single person who suffered worse than I do from the the complications they won by way of being born, hadn't anyone I loved that took their lives, this would be extremely upsetting to me. Using the idea that "whatever I do, it's got to be acceptable because I am X" while not caring that anyone else is X, Y, and/or Z. Weaponizing it for bullying and sympathy simultaneously. Way too much. Incredibly gross and harmful, legitimately fucking problematic.

I want people to be taken seriously when they choose to speak of the boundaries their mental health requires, I want muns to be able to say that they are having a difficult time without it coming off (even to the rest of us with mental health conditions) as a ploy for attention/guilting for whatever action they desire be taken by partners, and I want people to take threats of oncoming, serious harm seriously. How are they to do this, when it is continually used as tool or weaponized against others? At very best, it becomes another thing to ignore and scroll by on the dash.

As we've all had the misfortune to experience or witness so recently, once it is weaponized, it's a problem of priority. I've said in damn near every message I've gotten that Raven isn't the only person involved here who has serious shit going on, but like the absurdity with trying to spin an accident as transphobia, or having the audacity to attempt speaking from a place of peace in a way that might benefit everyone, Raven included, resulting in a callout about being against ND people...it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter that any of us are neurodivergent, have serious chronic mental health complications, or are not cisgender. Raven was swinging that around like a flaming sword to drive off bigots real and imagined before we ever got their attention.

Attention they fucking asked for.

Reblogging that post from COAR was just like posting those rules. The intention was to get attention, and it was asked for with extreme hostility. I have no idea how that is coming off to anyone as simply them defending themselves. It was a great moment to either not out themselves as the person in the confession at all, not engage with it, quietly remove the post, or to reblog it and take responsibility in a meaningful way at that point. Can you imagine what a difference that would have made then? If Raven had chosen instead to reblog it and apologize for doing what they had. Just that. No shitty, snide little comments about how they're sorry, but still absolutely correct and here are five reasons why everything they've misconstrued won't be tolerated. Just an acknowledgment of wrongdoing, an apology for doing so, and awareness gained moving forward.

Their decision to interact with that post in the way they did wasn't just more of the same nonsense, it was actively upping the game. I don't really care if it was intentional bait or just continuing to let malicious impulse run free, it was used as bait. Everyone who interacted with that post was effectively consigning themselves to harassment, and if they happened to interact on literally any other topic that group held a passionately opposing opinion on, they were attacked for it. Curiously, it became necessary for them to be harassed by way of the callout blog, but that is getting a little close to off-topic, so, I'll leave it at that.

So, while I initially really wanted to have the appeal to Raven work because their expressions of regret that I was greatly on the fence about being genuine, I'd say those flags were accurate. I cannot believe that someone who took every opportunity to do the wrong thing is genuinely sorry. Sorry for themselves, absolutely, sorry for anything they did, not so much. This constant narrative I got of "they SAID they were sorry" and "they apologized again and again and took the posts down," including from Raven, is incredible. On that last one, they, yet again, couldn't actually address me.

Appropriate response: messaging me or reblogging that post (you know, the rules snippet I found right the hell there still, despite the claim of it being deleted and the final catalyst of me needing to say something after I saw that, nope, surely was not) with the acknowledgment of a single thing I said.

Extra appropriate response: ^ plus going to everyone who could still be located that they harmed with a genuine, individual, private apology.

Inappropriate response that was had: new post, shitty, childish tone like they at once wanted to argue with me and didn't want to drop the act, restating of this apology that had already been deleted and meant exactly shit while it existed, restating of how they deleted this post and couldn't control reblogs, ignoring that I literally reblogged the original copy from their blog.

Apology neither believed nor accepted. Just as it wouldn't be if my nephew came to my house, broke a bunch of my things, said he was sorry while throwing the pieces at my pet, then threw himself on the floor screaming that he said he was sorry when I told him to go have a time out.

(Yes, I absolutely did just make a comparison to a child, y'all can shit yourselves again. It's not my problem if you want to misconstrue "this person's actions are not befitting of an adult" as "Vespertine said autistic people are children!" Fucking miss me with that. I'm an autistic adult who pays my bills, apologizes, doesn't treat people like shit while trying to excuse it by being ND. You're offensive with that shit, and contributing to the negative perception people have of those on the spectrum. Be a good ally today! Don't valid that! Free ninety-nine offer!)

Again, sorry for yourself does not equal being sorry for what you've done. The former can contribute to the development of the latter, but as I said in a response yesterday, there has been no display of that beginning to transpire. I genuinely hope that will eventually be the case because that would be the best outcome, the only "best" outcome at this point. Even if it was two years from now, if it did happen, I certainly would not be kind to people refusing them any such growth in peace, and I hope that, by some distant chance, I get to prove that.

But...stating "my intentions were good" over any part of this is not remotely promising. When? Where? At what point? Oh, right, when you took it upon yourself to label a random mun you took issue with. That's when your intentions were good. Then, when you vehemently needed to defend that point by callouts and individual attacks under the guise of it definitely not being about your pride, no! It was the defense of everyone else! Defending the community by carpet-bombing it, yes. This is not a "the path to Hell is paved with good intentions" situation.

I am so disturbed about the nineteen-year-old mun, my god. I'm telling y'all, my anger and disgust almost reach what I think is a pinnacle, then there's something new like this.

I don't even subscribe to tumblr's ideology that anyone under twenty-five is an actual infant who needs be kept in a protective bubble and forgiven for all bad behavior with infinite kindness, nineteen-year-olds deserve the agency of the adultier adults they are becoming, but it is a transitional age. Especially today. Most socialization and formative ideas take place online, and by the time younger RPers are entering the adult sphere of RP here, they've already got some really unhealthy ideas. About themselves, about others. There is such a demand for rabidly performative action that gets internalized, it shouldn't be being heartily fed by people in the community they might look up to.

At that age, someone like Raven is going to be a person looked up to. They espouse all the right ideas, and it's an age in which aggressive interaction over those things is seen as amusing and correct, no matter how wrong the actions taken are or the basis upon which they are founded. When these people foster an environment of cruelty for questioning, of course, that is not going to be the natural response. The response is now going to be the requirement of being told otherwise with adequate proof.

I have suspected that many of the hateful anons I've gotten were from Raven's even younger followers who feel like it's normal, acceptable, and that everything they're being told by Raven's sales team over at the callout blog is absolutely true. Of course, they're now morally obligated to come harass me for the things they were told I did! I think it's likely that several of the anons people got were from actual minors, which is so many levels of scary and irresponsible. Really great example all around, yes!

Because whether it is one's intention or not, that is potentially exposing minors, or muns who are still close enough to be more negatively impacted, to who even knows what. As well as violating the rules of blogs who do not interact with minors for good reason, setting those blogs up for yet another callout for treating someone they didn't know was a minor the way they did or having "freak shit" on their blog. Setting up the other party to be treated with full hostility as an adult would be. Very cool, very responsible.

There is just so much here that is unacceptable, I don't think people who were not directly impacted or have never had a callout against them understand the results, and that is one more unacceptable thing you've been good enough to talk about.

Even while taking a break from the RPC, it affects you negatively. Wondering what you're coming back to, your blog is no longer a safe feeling space, and there's nothing you can do to "cultivate your blog" to change that. They've taken away the ability to simply block and avoid others, the thing that keeps all of us comfortable here as well as allowing that to be all of us no matter how disagreeable we might be to each other. Callouts negate adult behavior. Callouts mean that one doesn't know where more potential for harassment might be coming from, or how long we might have to be worried about that.

It would be a major concern for me as well about what putting myself out there to new writing partners might bring. What the success of that might be. It's incredibly unfair that they've made finding new people precarious and more unpleasant than it can be anyway. That puts all of the future of your RP here in question, and if you're like me, just dropping a muse, picking up another, and moving to a new URL isn't going to be a good choice for you. It isn't that simple if you dedicate time to a muse for a long period of time, when that's the case, that's the RP you want to do and have laid the groundwork for.

I don't know if it will help at all, but it has seemed to me, over the past several days, that there are fewer people in the RPC who are inclined to believe or support callouts than there once was. I was hoping that was the case, since there is always so much interaction on my posts against callout culture, but until this crap went down, I had no idea just how many people are not positive toward it. It has seemed to be that the people who are inclined to listen to callouts are just louder.

I've also noticed that those people have the same set of red flags, so maybe sharing that will help you or others?

They don't have simple, basic, reasonable Do Not Interacts. It isn't simply asking that minors don't interact because the mun is over eighteen, that muns writing a triggering topic not interact, or that sort of thing. No, it's URL dropping of specific muns, outright links to callouts or "receipts," and an accusatory tone about any topics or types of muns who shouldn't interact. Such as "nasty ass proshippers" or "pedo apologists shipping incest."

Their rules are reflective this as well. A statement cannot be made that they do not write, let's say, toxic ships and left at that. There will be some morality wank present about normalizing or romanticizing toxic/abusive relationships.

There are less assured flags, but literally, anything that stands out as an interest in RPC or fandom-based activism as opposed to an interest in writing, their muses, or even their friendships with a variety of muns. I don't mean a rounded-out interest in things, I really do mean a glaring predominance of buzzword-laden reblogs and PSA's while they've not written a reply, headcanon, or answered a meme in months.

I'm not saying any of that because I feel like you, or anyone else's, judgment is terrible or that you're oblivious to warning signs! It's just that when we've experienced bad situations, it can compromise our ability to see clearly. It becomes easy to see a potential threat everywhere, and maybe that seems contrary, but it's then easy to fail to see real threats from those we're blowing up. We question whether we're being just as judgmental as the people who wronged us, putting words in other muns' mouths and thoughts in place of their own as was done to us. While we still are afraid to be wrong in giving someone an in to ruining our time again.

So, please, don't feel like I'm questioning your intelligence or speaking from a place of ultimate knowledge, never making mistakes in such a choice! I just really hate that you, and many others, are going through this, and anything at all that I can think of that might help you move forward from this utter bullshit you've been through, I've got to try to grab it.

Because, Anon, like all those sharing their experiences these last few days, you sound like the kind of mun we need in the RPC.

You're someone willing to share with others for the benefit of others. You're being honest about your feelings of anger and even the hopeless sensation of whether it's even worth it to try to return, having your progress on and offline stomped on, while still maintaining a sort of fairness and calm that I know is not easy. Because that's the mature thing to do, it's the right thing, and unfortunately, those are usually the harder things to do as well.

You did the right thing in expressing your opinion and doing what people like Raven's group love to be on about, can only do through bullying: not tolerating it. I'd hate for the RPC to lose someone like you!

Just as your message matters to more people out there than myself, I have no doubt that your choice to not quietly allow this behavior mattered to more muns than you'll ever know. I'm sure that none of them would have wanted this result for you, but so many muns have experienced such toxic, bullying behavior over the years in which not a soul spoke up.

Many of you proved something very important with challenging Raven and the callouts blog, that unlike them, it isn't necessary for good people to even know each other to do the right thing. They have to dogpile and engage in cliquish behavior, what they do isn't coming from a place of inner ethics and strength, but what you all did? It's the opposite.

So, not only do I thank you again for sharing and providing the important support of simply not being alone to others, I thank you for being the example to the RPC that people dealing in callouts and generalized shaming cannot be, no matter their platform.

I hope that, whether you choose to remain, leave, or take a very long break, everything you've been dealing with starts to look up. I know it's easy to say things made hollow for their repetition and flippant use, like telling you not to let them win, or that their bullshit just isn't that important. So, I'm not going to say them.

It doesn't work that way when you're dealing with mental health concerns! You can logically know that this is just petty bullshit not worth being run out of something important to you, but that doesn't stop the worry, frustration, or depression. You can have all the determination in the world to hang in there, even the spite to back it up, but neither is a match for the things you cannot control coming from your brain. That is the cruelty of mental illness on the very best of days.

You have all of my respect, support, and genuine sympathy that this happened to you. No one should be allowed to continually and unapologetically go out of their way to throw a wrench into someone's hard-won progress. You did nothing to deserve this, and the people out there worth interacting with are going to be the same ones who will have no question of that.

Lastly, I also hope that some of the anons sharing their experiences have helped you feel less alone, or like you're not just irrationally upset. Please know that you're seen and supported as well! And that you are always welcome to talk more, vent, share successes here.

Thank you, Anon.

#vespertine #answered #anonymous #long post #drama cw #rp harassment #callout culture

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mellometal · 3 years ago

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I know I said I don't associate myself with the Panic! fandom anymore, but this is something I have been ACHING to talk about. This is some bad timing, since it was Brent Wilson's birthday recently (yes, his birthday is July 20th, NOT August 20th; source: I've been following him on Twitter for five years and he's actually said this), but this is going to be about Brent and the whole situation with him.

Warning: What I'm about to say about the situation with Brent Wilson (original bassist) is heavily biased, since I do stan him. YEAH. I STAN BRENT MATTHEW WILSON, THE ORIGINAL BASSIST OF PANIC! AT THE DISCO. CRY ABOUT IT. STAY MAD. He's one of the ONLY members of Panic! At The Disco (past and present) who I give a fuck about, besides Ryan Ross, Spencer Smith, and Ian Crawford.

Trigger warning: This will be talking about arrest, jail, drugs (doing and selling), weapons (guns), childbirth, parenthood, and some other things. If these things are triggering for you or make you uncomfortable in any way, you do not have to read this post. Consume media that sparks joy for you.

Disclaimer: I don't know Brent in real life, I'm not in his circle of friends or people he's closest to (like his wife Taylor, his parents, his brother Blake, his in-laws, his irl friends, coworkers, etc.), and this is not me acting like I do. I don't know what his life is like outside of Twitter. The only contact I've ever had with him has been on Twitter, but it was pretty limited.

My thoughts on this situation are MY opinion, any possibilities in my thoughts are just theories and not proven to be true, and I'm not trying to excuse whatever he was allegedly charged with.

Just for the record, I am willing to have a civil conversation with anyone who hates Brent. The minute you attack me or anyone else who likes Brent, or a whole bunch of you start circle jerking about how much you hate him, you're getting blocked. If all you're going to bring up is the shit Brent did when he was in his late teens instead of adding anything useful to the discussion, you're getting blocked too. I already know about that. It happened back in 2004-2006. They were all still kids, to a point. Brent has changed quite a bit since then. The whole "Hate on Brent Wilson" bandwagon is stupid, toxic, and I refuse to jump on it. I've never jumped on it when I was in the Panic! fandom, so why would I do it now?

Remember, without Brent bringing Br3nd0n Ur!3 into Panic!, your precious Br3nd0n wouldn't be successful today. JUST SO YA KNOW. (I'm very salty right now, if you can't already tell.)

If you would like to know about what happened with Brent, a few months ago, he was arrested on (alleged) drug charges and illegal possession of a weapon, along with a traffic violation and something to do with a probation violation too. He was set to go to court back in March for his sentencing, but that's the most recent information I've found. I don't know what the fuck is going on at this point. I don't know if he's been sentenced, if he's doing anything alternative like rehabilitation, nothing. (The reason why I said they're alleged charges is because I don't know if he's even been to court for sentencing or anything like that.)

People's reactions were mixed. Some actually LAUGHED and made a whole bunch of jokes about him being arrested (that's fucking insensitive and cruel). Some felt bad for Brent because he just became a dad (yes, he's a dad, but I'm not posting any pictures of the kid out of respect for Brent and Taylor). Some were shocked. Some weren't surprised (how and why????).

My reaction? It was pretty mixed. I was shocked. I thought I was having a fever dream and what I was seeing was fake at first. When I realized it wasn't fake, I was crushed. I felt absolutely horrible for Brent, Taylor, their kid, and all their loved ones. Like, I care about the guy a lot. Obviously.

Ironically, the band members and/or group members I stan are either the black sheep or they're just not as popular. Or they're the fucking scapegoat almost EVERYONE attacks for the stupidest shit. Brent's the black sheep as well as the scapegoat of Panic!, for example....and I would say that Ian is another black sheep too. Not for any negative reasons. He's simply not as popular, due to the fact he was only in Panic! during the Vices era for a short time. He's underrated as FUCK. I'm one of the black sheep in a lot of places [except for friend groups], even in my own family, so it explains why I stan Brent still.

I just want to say that selling drugs and doing drugs aren't inherently bad things to do. This doesn't mean that I'm for kids doing drugs and selling them. Absolutely not. I want people who do drugs or sell drugs to be treated like human beings. I also want them to be able to seek help easier without the judgment or being treated like a criminal. Personally, I don't do any of that, but I understand why someone would. (This kind of thing hits home for me.)

As far as the whole weapon thing is concerned (it was a gun), I personally don't like them and we need better gun control in the United States. I don't think I'd trust anyone who owns a gun because of the possibility that they would hurt me or worse in an argument or something. I've seen my abuser threaten to pull a gun out on my dad when I was a kid. Thankfully it wasn't loaded, but still. It was scary. I wouldn't own a gun because I'm autistic, mentally ill, and I'm afraid of what I might do in certain situations. If someone wants to own a gun for protection, hunting, target practice, or to collect them, fine. BUT YOU DON'T NEED A HUGE ASS GUN THAT THE MILITARY USES TO GO HUNTING OR FOR TARGET PRACTICE. I don't like them, I don't want one, I don't trust myself with one, guns scare me, and I want better gun control in the United States. It terrifies me that people openly carry. I understand that's the Second Amendment and all, but it doesn't change the fact that it terrifies me. As long as you're responsible with that kind of thing, I don't really care.

I don't know what Brent's reason was for (allegedly) owning a weapon (maybe for protection or something?), but it's none of my business.

In my opinion, this is all stupid shit. There are people who have done horrible things and they're STILL free people, but oh, god forbid you do or sell drugs! THAT'S bad. /s

Here's my response below. I'll type out everything, except for the disclaimers and what he was arrested for. I will start from the fifth paragraph on the first screenshot and continue from there. This is so anyone who has a hard time reading any of the screenshots can read them easier.

(My response was from around the time it was announced that he was arrested. Just so you know.)

First screenshot, fifth paragraph:

First off, I just want to say that this situation is a fucked up one for anyone to be in. I would never wish this on anyone. Especially because now, there's a baby involved, so this makes the situation worse. This is pretty difficult for me to put into words without coming off as bitchy or anything like that, so if I get bitchy here, I apologize.

Second screenshot, fifth paragraph:

I don't know what caused this mess to begin with, but I do know that Brent and his wife Taylor just had a baby a couple months ago (when I was typing this out initially). While it's a good thing for them, it can be assumed that this is also a very stressful time for them.

Combination of third and fourth screenshots (These are pretty much only theories; not facts, and they will be broken up into paragraphs):

The pandemic most likely isn’t helping their case. Las Vegas is a HUGE city and I’m sure A LOT of people there are REALLY struggling right now in all aspects. Maybe Brent and Taylor are struggling to pay off hospital bills or whatever (to put this into perspective, the average cost for hospital childbirth in Nevada is around $21,239, according to CBS News). The average salary for an accountant in Nevada is anywhere from $34k to $150k, and that all depends on education, experience (how long you’ve been in said career), certifications, and any additional skills. Take into account any other necessities they have to pay for, like their mortgage, bills, insurance, etc.

Let’s say that they did manage to pay everything else off, but they’re struggling to pay the hospital bills from when they had their baby. (Having a baby is fucking expensive in the United States, regardless of whether there are complications or not, and regardless of whether you have insurance or not.) Let’s say they’ve tried every single option out there, but nothing seems to give still. Maybe the drug selling was a last resort on Brent’s part. (As I’ve said, I don’t know the full story.)

The whole subject of drug paraphernalia hits home for me. My parents both did drugs when I was a kid. I’ve seen it a lot growing up. My dad was, in the past, in and out of jail for drugs and other things that aren’t relevant here. I’m not sure if my mom was in and out of jail for the same shit, but I know for a fact my dad was. Y’know, because he told me. ANYWAYS.

I get it. You gotta do what you gotta do. It’s not something I’d do personally, but I understand why somebody would do it. I wouldn’t treat them any differently. Maybe they’re selling drugs or whatever to keep themselves from losing their homes, put food on the table for their families, help pay their bills, pay for their education, whatever. It could be a number of things.

Fifth screenshot (people’s reactions to the news and my thoughts on them):

Now...let’s move on to how people are reacting to the news. There’s a lot of mixed reactions. A lot of people feel bad for Brent, especially since he and Taylor just had a baby a couple months ago (as I was typing this). Some people “aren’t surprised” because they were never fans of him in the first place. Others think this is amusing. I’ve seen some people who are solely involved in celebrity news (similar to TMZ) making jokes about the situation, which to me, is appalling.

Let me tell you something. It doesn’t matter if you’re a fan of Brent or not. This shit isn’t funny or cute in the slightest. It sure isn’t funny or cute to anyone who is being affected by the situation, which includes Brent himself, Taylor, their son, and all their loved ones. Like, full stop. Have some decency. Y’all are fucking gross. You can dislike Brent all you want, but he’s a real human being who fucked up. Personally, when I first heard the news, I couldn’t believe it at first. I thought I was having a fever dream. That is, until I looked it up and actually found that it was true. I was CRUSHED. Why? Because Brent is one of the last people I’d even expect to get into this whole mess.

Sixth screenshot (my thoughts):

If I’m being honest here...like, BRUTALLY honest, Brent needs to be put in REHAB, not jail. For anyone who has been here (on my Instagram) from when I used to dedicate this account to vintage Panic!, you know how I’ve never said anything but kind things about Brent. From the few times I’ve interacted with him a little bit on Twitter and from how I’ve seen him interact with others on the site, Brent is one of the sweetest people ever. I’m being genuine here. He’s a good guy who fucked up and did some dumb shit. Does that make him bad? No. Then again, as far as I’ve read about the current situation at hand, it’s too early to really determine anything. None of us know what caused him to have drug paraphernalia or anything else that he was arrested for in the first place.

Seventh screenshot (wrap-up):

I’m gonna wrap this up here. My heart aches for Brent, Taylor, their son, and all their loved ones. I hope that everything gets straightened out, all sides of the story come out, and that Brent can get his shit together again. Like he had been doing since he was kicked out of Panic!. I wish everyone involved nothing but the absolute best right now, given how fucked up the whole situation is. (Just to clear up any confusion, when I was referring to Taylor, I’m NOT referring to Taylor Swift or any other celebrity with the name Taylor. I’m referring to Brent’s wife.)

If you’ve read this far, thank you! If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I’ll try to answer as best as I can.

Have my thoughts on the situation changed since February - March of this year? No.

I think that Brent needs some kind of help. That's why I mentioned rehab. It's obvious to me that's the kind of help he needs. I don't believe jail is helpful in certain circumstances (like drug charges, traffic violations, and other nonviolent crimes)....at least in the United States. They treat people who do drugs and/or sell drugs like they're subhuman. Yet there are people who have committed violent, deplorable, horrific crimes, and they're still free people. Funny how that works. I'm not too educated about how the jail system works in other countries, so I can't exactly tell you how I feel about that system on an international standpoint.

Brent should be with his wife and child. I hope the guy gets his shit together again. I believe Brent WILL get his shit together. Genuinely. I would never wish anything bad on him.

I don't crucify Brent like a lot of people in the Panic! fandom do. The only reason I would hypothetically do so is if Brent actually committed violent, deplorable, horrific crimes (i.e., chomo bullshit, trafficking...like, extreme shit) that would warrant him being locked up and I'd drop him completely at that point. OBVIOUSLY I DON'T SEE HIM DOING ANYTHING LIKE THAT. EVER. THAT'S JUST HYPOTHETICAL.

Anyways....have a good day, y'all.

#mello speaks #brent wilson #panic! at the disco #tw drugs #tw possession of a weapon #tw weapon mention #brent matthew wilson #holy shit I'm talking about PANIC! despite not associating with the fandom anymore? wow!#cw arrest #i really hope they're okay though #this situation is a fucked up one for anyone to be in

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groundramon · 6 years ago

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I don’t really know how to word this without immediately knowing that tumblr could accuse me of a fuckton of different buzzwords, but I’m going to try to anyways - and hopefully if any hyper-woke people find me, they’ll tell me how I should better word myself in the future instead of immediately calling me an abuse apologist or some shit.

But anyways, here’s a hot take - people of minority groups can be abusers. Sometimes, they can abuse people for their minority status. Sometimes, people lie about sexual assault. Sometimes, people use their mental health or identity or race or whatever as an excuse for being a despicable human being. How do I know? Because I’ve had it happen to me, over and over and over.

I am: a trans, LGBT+, mentally disabled + ill, DFAB person. I am also: a white, able-bodied fuckboy who lives in California, one of the most progressive states in the country, even in its conservative areas. I am on both sides of the spectrum, and the times when I see minority statuses being abused are usually from the groups that I’m a minority of.

For example, I was harassed (and arguably sexually abused, however because I couldn’t find those comments that could’ve made him face legal consequences for all he’s done, I struggle to say that this is the case - additionally, I was never his target, just my art) by an autistic man online when I was younger. It’s the reason why I can’t interact with the HT/TY/D fandom and why I won’t be seeing the third movie (keep in mind this happened right before the second movie, and I went to see that one because it legitimately interested me - this one seems heterosexual AND reminds me of my abuser’s dragon OC, which he guilt tripped me into drawing for him as his form of porn). He ruined an entire franchise for me because he harassed me so badly. He guilt tripped me in about how hard it was being autistic (and threw in some comments about how teens think they have it “so hard with their anxiety and depression” when “they really have no idea”, to a teenager struggling with identifying anxiety and depression - i didn’t believe that bullcrap but I did fall for his autism sob story) and convinced me to do art trades with him which were just redraws of my own stuff, and he’d repeatedly spam me and yell at me and guilt trip me to finish his work if I so much as read his note without responding. He drained my motivation for DeviantArt along with my love of a franchise. This man was also a serial harasser/spammer, he did this to MANY people, including other minors. I wasn’t a specific target - honestly, I think I was pretty low on his priority list, considering he only tried to come back a few times. The kicker? I’m pretty sure I’m autistic, even though I had no idea back then. At least, I sure do have a lot of symptoms of autism now that I look back.

Not good enough for you? Okay. How about the fact that a relative of mine tried to convince my aunt that she (my aunt, not the relative) was sexually abused by my paternal grandfather as a child, sending my aunt into a mental breakdown because she couldn’t remember anything like that and had no idea? My aunt is the weak link in our family, she’s adopted and felt othered for it, and lived away from the rest of our family for a long time. She recently started getting involved and just happened to be attacked by a known financial and mental abuser in our extended family right when she started getting back involved. I’m thankful that my dad and my uncles were able to help her get a better picture of her father. Keep in mind that I don’t have a positive image of my paternal grandfather, because he smoked and gave my dad + uncle health problems due to it - and I personally consider that an accidental form of child abuse, in a way. But he was NOT a fucking incestual pedophile. It infuriated me to hear that, despite never meeting him, and having a negative overall impression of him.

How about another? My step-step-grandmother (long story) has accused my deceased uncle of being a money-hungry monster and stealing all of her rightful money after his father/her husband died. We’re in a court case to get the inheritance we deserve from her now, but she only ever brought this up AFTER he passed away. When informed about his dead, she bitched about how he made her loose money, and how she was struggling despite using up all of my mom’s inheritance (from her step-father AND her mother). Because you know, that’s what you do when someone dies. My uncle was the only uncle on my mom’s side to make it to my birthdays, his family gave my mom and I a place to stay when we ended up stranded down south due to a bad head injury my dad got (also long story) and we didn’t have time to make it back home and we didn’t want to just leave my dad there. My uncle was probably the nicest, kindest family member I had. His funeral was the first funeral I went to, and there were TONS of people. He was a Christian man who lived by true Christian values, and plenty of people testified this at his funeral. People I’d never even met before. This old woman accused him of stealing her money (where did it go?? his wife is fucking broke now that he’s gone!), never caring enough to visit her, ect. This old woman, who never even responded to my birthday invitations let alone came, who never made any attempt to make a mutual outreach to us. She expected us to do all the work, and when we decided it wasn’t worth her ignoring and rejecting, we stopped. And then she accused us of abandoning her. This is an old woman, but she’s still an evil person - or an evil person who is now just a shell of evil, unable to even remember a time when she didn’t believe these lies that she told herself.

And don’t get me started on how this applies to ace discourse. Heaven forbid I compare the ace/aro experience to another LGBT experience! It’s only okay if I compare it to the straight experience (which i do btw, because i KNOW we benefit from homophobia unless we’re also sga) even though it has 99% more in common with the LGBP experience than the straight experience. This isn’t an inclusionist vs exclusionist thing - this is just COMPARISONS. It’s like saying murkrow looks like a crow - like yeah, no shit sherlock!! doesn’t mean murkrow is just the same as a real life fucking crow!!! And god, haven forbid you talk about real aphobia and how it affects real aspec people. Immediately every allo in the area will jump on you about how that’s just misogyny and rape culture and blah blah blah. Then what about when it happens to men? What about when it happens to nonbinary people? What about when it has literally nothing to do with gender or being forced to have sex, and is just a constant feeling of being othered and excluded? Forgotten and not believed? Constantly doubted that your experience is real? And then to be told that the very bigotry you suffered was just a part of a bigger issue, instead of specifically about a part of your identity....bullshit. There IS overlap in certain social issues. Race affects how homophobia and transphobia affects a person deeply. Same with misogyny and race. So of course there’s overlap. But to say that aphobia doesn’t exist, I’m sorry - I don’t say this lightly, but that’s unconscious gaslighting. (there is no better term than that - believe me, I looked. My point is that I don’t believe it’s intentional, but LGBP people, trans or not - you NEED to stop doing this. You ARE unconciously gaslighting aces and aros. This is not anecdotal, there are statistics and you refuse to believe them, despite pointing at just as credible statistics to prove your own points. You say we can’t use anecdotal evidence, but then go on to use it yourself. Intentional or not, you need to quit it.)

I really don’t want to talk about how race and this stuff intertwine because I really don’t have any experience with that as a white person. All I know is that groups of POC can be bigoted towards other groups of POC, and they can even be bigoted towards people of their own race.

Which leads me to the most important part of this post: The fact that minorities can abuse majority groups, even if its on the basis of their minority group, does NOT mean that minority groups are not oppressed.

Just because a few women lie about being raped, doesn’t mean that all women who say they were raped are lying. Just because an autistic person abused me, doesn’t mean that all autistic/mentally disabled people and mentally ill people are scary. Just because aphobia is real doesn’t mean that non-SGA aces and aros don’t benefit from homophobia to a certain degree. Just because homophobia kills doesn’t mean that aphobia isn’t just as real. Just because the LGBT community has a habit of gaslighting victims of aphobia doesn’t mean that the LGBT community oppresses the aspec community. Just because POC can discriminate against or even hold systemic power over another POC doesn’t mean that they aren’t both oppressed by white people.

Abuse is not oppression. Oppression is a repeated, prolonged offense of cruel and unjust control. None of my anecdotals “prove” that oppression for these groups isn’t real. Because I’m part of these groups, and it’s my opinion that it IS real. But my anecdotals are also still valid. It is not problematic to point out when someone uses their minority status to abuse and manipulate others. It is not problematic to call bigoted, cruel mentally disabled people problematic for being manipulative and abusive. Their disability is not an excuse. Their identity is not an excuse. Their experience may be a reason, but not an excuse. But neither is your experience. Let people talk about their individual experiences AND the wider issues of oppression as a whole. They don’t have to be opposite faces of the same coin, and it’s sad that we act like they do.

#stormy speaks #also i would just like to point out that ive never been abused by a person of color for their minority but i have by like every other group #just wanted to point that out incase anyone missed it #just. just sayin! just sayin @ racists!

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thomasalwyndavis · 7 years ago

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Melatonin For Children? A Guide for Parents

The blog article Melatonin For Children? A Guide for Parents Read more on: thomasalwyndavis.com

Pediatricians frequently recommend melatonin for children with sleep problems, or parents might try it themselves. However, the proper use of melatonin is frequently misunderstood. Here is a guide for parents and pediatricians to decide if a child should try it, and to understand how it should be used.

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A common thread I find in children coming to Sleep Clinic is that many or all of them have been on melatonin at some point, or are taking it currently. Melatonin is an important tool in the treatment of sleep disorders in children, and because it is naturally derived, there is a widespread perception that it is safe. However, I have become concerned by the frequency of its use, especially in an unsupervised way.

Melatonin sales have doubled in the past ten years, increasing from $90 million in 2007 to $260 million in 2012. I worry that the widespread availability of melatonin has led to some parents using it as a shortcut to good sleep practices. An article in the Wall Street Journal (which also provided the sales figures above), quoted a father’s review on Amazon:

OK, yes, as parents my wife and I should do a better job starting the bedtime routine earlier, turning off the TV earlier, limiting sweets, etc., etc. Well, for whatever reason, this is not our strong suit. This 1 mg light dosage of melatonin is very helpful winding our kids down and getting them ready for bed.

In one regard it is safe— unlike many other medications which cause you to fall asleep, you cannot overdose on it. However, parents need to know that melatonin is a hormone with effects throughout the body and we do not yet know what the long-term effects of melatonin use will be. Many parents in the US would be surprised to know that melatonin is only available with a prescription in the European Union or Australia.

NOTE: For the vast majority of kids, I recommend behavioral interventions to treat insomnia, commonly referred to as sleep training. Here’s an overview of the best sleep training techniques. Start there before trying melatonin.

What is melatonin? What does melatonin do?

Melatonin is a hormone which is naturally produced by the pineal gland in your brain. It is both a chronobiotic agent, meaning that it regulates your circadian or body clock; and a hypnotic, meaning that at higher doses it may induce sleep. Melatonin is usually used for its hypnotic effect, but it does not have this effect in everyone. Only the chronobiotic effect occurs in all individuals. The natural rise of melatonin levels in the body 1-3 hours before sleep onset is known as the “dim light melatonin onset” (DLMO). This is the signal involved in body clock scheduling of sleep and corresponds to the end of the “wakefulness” signal produced by the circadian system. Children with insomnia may be given melatonin after their scheduled bedtime passes; what this means is that their bodies are not yet ready for sleep. This is one reason why bedtime fading can be so effective for some children. The doses used clinically (0.5–10 mg or higher) greatly exceed the amount secreted in the body.

There are a few things to be aware of:

Blue-white light exposure in the evenings shift the DLMO later. This is why bright light exposure in the evenings can worsen insomnia. I highly recommend eliminating ANY screen time for preschool through elementary school children for an hour prior to bedtime. That means no light emitting Kindles, iPads, smartphones, computers, or (God forbid) television in the bedroom For students in junior high and beyond who need to use computers to complete school work, I highly recommend lowering brightness settings and using software to reduce the blue light frequencies. (For more on this read my post about going on a “light diet” here).

The effect of dosing melatonin (and light therapy for that matter) are phase dependent. What that means is that the timing of giving melatonin determines both the magnitude and direction of effect. Many people do not realize that the optimal time to dose melatonin for shifting sleep period is actually a few hours before bedtime– that is to say, before the DLMO. The other facet of this is that in teenagers with severely shifted sleep schedule (delayed sleep phase syndrome) may actually have a later shift in their sleep schedule if this is not dosed correctly. Thus I would leave the timing of this to a sleep physician. Jet lag is a similar case[1].

“All natural” melatonin is from cow or pig brains and should be avoided. Most preparations around now are synthetic, which is preferable.

Here’s a short video I put together to explain how when you give the melatonin dose really matters. (Maybe just for the supernerds out there like myself).

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How effective is melatonin for sleep problems in children?

The overall effects of melatonin include falling asleep more quickly and an increase in sleep time. Like all medicines used to help children fall asleep, there is fairly limited information available. This means that most studies have small groups followed for short periods of time. Furthermore, melatonin not regulated as a pharmaceutical in the U.S. Thus, there is no large pharmaceutical company bankrolling larger and long-term studies (more on this below) . Rather it is regulated as a food supplement by the FDA. For a terrific review, including dosing recommendations, I highly recommend this article by Bruni et al.

Chronic sleep onset insomnia and Melatonin:

Problems with falling asleep are common in children, just like in adults. In children with chronic difficulty falling asleep within 30 minutes of an age-appropriate bedtime. [2] Use of melatonin results in less difficulty with falling asleep, earlier time of sleep onset, and more sleep at night. The initial studies used pretty high doses, but later studies comparing different doses showed that dose didn’t matter, and that the lowest dose studied was as effective as the highest.[3] This is likely due to the fact that ALL these doses were well above the amount produced naturally in the children. Timing between 6–7 PM was more effective than later doses. The authors point out that a midafternoon dose would have the best effect (due to the phase response curve) but that afternoon dosing would have the unpleasant side effective of making children sleepy in the afternoon. (For more info, read here and here and here).

Autism and Melatonin

Sleep problems are common in children with autism. Multiple types of problems occur, including prolonged time to fall asleep, less sleep during the night, and problems with nocturnal and early morning awakenings. Some children with autism have decreased levels of melatonin as well as decreased variation in melatonin secretion throughout the day. Because of this, melatonin has commonly been used in autistic children, which seems to result in less difficulty falling asleep and more sleep at night. Some studies used immediate release preparations, whereas others use long acting forms of melatonin. The majority of studies involved melatonin dosing 30–60 minutes prior to bedtime. Interestingly, these studies also demonstrated improvement in other domains in some children– specifically, communication, social withdrawal, stereotyped behaviors, and anxiety.

A recent trial looked at a time released melatonin preparation called PedPRM at doses of 2-5 mg. The children in this trial slept 57.5 minutes more (compared with the children who did not receive the medication, who slept 9 minutes more). Most of the benefit seemed to be due to improvement in falling asleep– on average, treated children fell asleep 39 minutes faster. This medication is not yet approved by the FDA but is in the pipeline for approval.

As in other children, melatonin should be added to a behavioral management plan. For pediatricians, there is a great practice pathway which suggests the addition of medication only after a behavioral intervention has failed. Two great resources for families are the Autism Speaks Sleep Toolkit, and the book Solving Sleep Problems in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders: A Guide for Frazzled Families(affiliate link). Here is a terrific review article on this topic as well.

ADHD and Melatonin

Attention deficit hyperactivity (ADHD) is commonly associated with sleep problems, just as sleep problems can cause attentional issues. As many as 70% of children with ADHD may have sleep problems. Sleep problems include difficulty falling asleep, abnormalities in sleep architecture (e.g. the proportions of different stages of sleep), and daytime sleepiness. Trials of melatonin (in doses ranging from 3–6 mg) showed that it helped children with ADHD to fall asleep more quickly, although there was no evidence of improvement in attentional symptoms during the day. Side effects reported included problems with waking up at night and daytime sleepiness in some children. There is a nice review article here.

Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome and Melatonin

Delayed sleep phase syndrome (DSPS) is a common disorder in teens, where their natural sleep period is shifted significantly later than the schedule which their commitments (usually school) mandates. Thus, teens with this disorder an unable to fall asleep by 1–2 AM in the morning or even later. I have seen kids who are routinely falling asleep between 4–5 AM. Melatonin has a clear role in this disorder, as small doses 3–4 hours earlier than sleep onset (along with light exposure limitation, sleep hygiene measures, and gradual changes in schedule [chronotherapy]) can be effective in managing this disorder. The reason for the delay is a marked delay in the DLMO, so melatonin dosing can move sleep periods earlier. For children with DSPS, giving a dose 4–6 hours prior to the current time of sleep onset, then moving it earlier every 4–5 days, is recommended, with low dose preparations. Of all the conditions mentioned here, this has the clearest benefit from melatonin. Here is a terrific review article.

Children With Neurodevelopmental Delay and Melatonin

Children with various causes of neurodevelopmental delay may have significant insomnia and melatonin may help. However, in some children melatonin use caused persistently high daytime blood levels of melatonin (and daytime sleepiness).

Blindness and Melatonin

Some children with blindness may have issues with sleep wake time as they do not have light regulating their circadian clock and may thus develop sleep disorders. Very small trials in adults have shown benefit (here’s one) but the data is very limited.

Eczema and Melatonin:

Eczema is associated with dry, itchy skin and kids with it can have problems with insomnia and non-restorative sleep. Some research has suggested that children with eczema may have low melatonin levels, and a recent trial suggest that melatonin may be helpful.

It sounds great. Why should I worry about melatonin?

There are several areas for concern, specifically known and theoretical side effects, and problems with preparations.

Side effects (known): In the short-term, melatonin seems to be quite safe. Unlike many other sleep inducing agents, “no serious safety concerns have been raised” (from Bruni review below). The most common side effects include morning drowsiness, bedwetting, headache, dizziness, nausea, and diarrhea. These effects are generally mild, and in my practice only the morning drowsiness seems to be significant. It can also interact with other medications (oral contraceptives, fluvoxamine, carbemazepine, omeprazole, and esomeprazole, to name a few).

Side effects (theoretical): Melatonin given to children may lead to persistently elevated blood melatonin levels throughout the day. This can be associated with persistent sleepiness, but the other effects are unclear. It is important to know that melatonin has NOT been tested as closely as a pharmaceutical as the FDA regulates it as a food supplement. The studies following children who have been using melatonin long-term have relied mostly on parental reports as opposed to biochemical testing. A physician in Australia named David Kennaway has published two editorials this year pointing out the inadequacy of information on long-term use in children. (You can read these here and here). He states his point of view in a pithy fashion]”

…parents should always be informed that (1) melatonin is not registered for use in children, (2) no rigorous long-term safety studies have been conducted in children and by the way (3) melatonin is also a registered veterinary drug used to alter the reproduction of sheep and goats .”

Problems with preparations– poor labeling:Melatonin preparations have been shown have to variable concentrations from preparation to preparation. Moreover, the amount that a child’s body absorbs may vary. Remember how I told you that melatonin was treated as a food supplement by the FDA?

This is a common preparation. . .

. . .but the label is not clear that it is 0.25 mg in each dropperful. Many parents think it is 1 mg / dropperful.

This means there is substantially less regulatory oversight in terms of safety and efficacy. I also find that the labelling of preparations is frequently misleading. Take the example of this liquid preparation, which many of my patients have tried. It is labeled as “1 mg” but each dropperful contains 0.25 mg.

You need to go to the web to get this information as it is not on the bottle. (It may be in the package insert, but I suspect few people read these).

Problems with preparations– inaccurate dosing: A recent study showed that the amount of melatonin can vary anywhere from -83% to +478% from the labeled dose. This means that if you are giving your child a dose of 3 mg, the actual dose may actually be anywhere from 0.5 mg to 14 mg. Moreover, the lot to lot variability was as high as 465%– meaning that you may buy a different bottle of medicine, from the same manufacturer, and still one bottle may have more than four times as much as melatonin as another, Finally, the researchers found serotonin (a medicine used in other conditions, and also a neurotransmitter) in 71% of samples. To me, this is the most concerning issue with melatonin– you don’t know what you are getting.

My child is already on melatonin. Do I need to freak out?

I don’t think so, as there is little concrete evidence of significant harm. However, if you started melatonin on your own I beg you to discuss it with your child’s physician to see if it is really necessary. If your child has been using it long-term and sleeping well, you can consider slowly reducing the dose and seeing if it is still really necessary. Try to use it as needed as opposed to nightly. Also, I would take a hard look at sleep hygiene and ensure that you are ensuring good bedtime processes such as a high quality bedtime routine and avoidance of screen time for at least an hour prior to bedtime. I would try to reduce the dose, and potentially only use it as needed as opposed to nightly.

My doctor and I have talked about it. What should we consider regarding how and when to give melatonin?

Melatonin can be a tricky medication to dose. Effects change depending on when you give it compared to your child’s usual sleep schedule. Thus, a small dose a few hours before bedtime can have more of an effect than a large dose given at bedtime. In some situations (as with people whose sleep schedules may be flipped to a daytime sleep schedule) dosing may the opposite effect. This is a special case and should be addressed with your physician. A couple of rules of thumb.

Timing: For shifting sleep schedules earlier 3–6 hours before current sleep onset is best. For the sleep onset effects, 30 minutes before bedtime is recommended. Remember, not every child gets sleepy with melatonin.

Dosing: In general, I would start at a low dose (0.5–1 mg) and increase slowly. Recognize that melatonin, unlike other medications, is a hormone, and that lower doses are sometimes more effective than higher ones, especially if the benefit of it reduces with time.

Good Sleep Hygiene is Critical: Melatonin is not a substitute for good sleep hygiene practices and should only be used in concert with a high quality bedtime, limitation on light exposure, and an appropriate sleep schedule.

When possible, purchasing a USP Verified preparation may indicate that the product is manufactured to the requirements of the U.S. Pharmacopeial Convention, which could mean that the quality controllers are tighter.

What is the take home? Should my child take melatonin?

I have not met a parent who is eager to medicate their child. Such decisions are made with a lot of soul-searching, and frequently after unsuccessful attempts to address sleep problems via behavioral changes. Treatment options are limited. There are no FDA-approved insomnia medications for children except for chloral hydrate which is no longer available. Personally, I use it commonly in my practice. It is very helpful for some children and families. I appreciate Dr. Kennaway’s concerns but I have seen first hand the consequences of poor sleep on children and families. I always investigate to make sure that I am not missing other causes of insomnia (such as restless leg syndrome). My end goal is always to help a child sleep with a minimum of medications. I know that this is the goal of parents as well. Some children, especially those with autism of developmental issues, will not be able to sleep without medication. So, melatonin may be a good option for your child if:

Behavioral changes alone have been ineffective

Other medical causes of insomnia have been ruled out

Your physician thinks that melatonin is a safe option for your child and is willing to follow his or her insomnia over time

By the way, here’s a great article from the Chicago Tribune on alternatives to melatonin.

So, this has been quite a long post. Do you have questions about melatonin use in children and teens? What has your experience been?

A special thanks to Bob Young R.Ph (aka the legendary “Bob from Pharmacy”) for his assistance with this.

If you would like more information on this I recommend this Cochrane review on the topic, and this WebMD article. ↩

An age appropriate bedtime was defined as 8:30 PM + 15 minutes x (age in years – 6). These children had had problems for at least a year for at least four nights per week. ↩

The initial trials both used 5 mg around 6 PM. A later trial tried multiple doses. Interestingly, the dose did not matter, and the lowest dose (0.05 mg/ kg of the child’s weight) was equally effective. [So, for a 40 lb child– 40/2.2 = 18. 2 kg. 18.2 * 0.05mg/kg = 0.91 mg]. ↩

I hope that you have found this helpful. If so, you can support this site by shopping at in my store at Amazon. Any purchases through that link (even it if is not in my store) will provide a small amount of support to the website at no cost to you. I have curated some of my favorite sleep hygiene products and bedtime stories. Thanks!

The post Melatonin For Children? A Guide for Parents appeared first on Craig Canapari, MD.

from Craig Canapari, MD http://drcraigcanapari.com/should-my-child-take-melatonin-a-guide-for-parents/

from Thomas Alwyn Davis - Feed https://thomasalwyndavis.com/melatonin-for-children-a-guide-for-parents/

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marclefrancois1 · 7 years ago

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Melatonin For Children? A Guide for Parents

The article e0a9e1e9e6412908cf53cee25f32209b62d23d03e119cd2df63e6855e8fc22eee0a9e1e9e6412908cf53cee25f32209b62d23d03e119cd2df63e6855e8fc22eepostlinke0a9e1e9e6412908cf53cee25f32209b62d23d03e119cd2df63e6855e8fc22eee0a9e1e9e6412908cf53cee25f32209b62d23d03e119cd2df63e6855e8fc22ee is available on https://www.marclefrancois.net