#genderbent starkling au

[minasmorghul]

heyyy Im absolutely in love with you genderbent starklings AU. Can u show us more about artos and his relationship with the rest of the starks🥺🥺🥺

Hi!!! I'm so glad you liked it!!!

So for Artos, I kind of had two varying ideas I think can both be explored to some degree and keep very true to how aspects of Arya play out in the books; but honestly I do think in a way, you can't 100% capture the Essence, so to speak, of Arya and Sansa without them being informed by them being a girls in a patriarchal feudal society.

On one hand, playing with Artos trying to embody Arya's gender-nonconformity would be a really interesting path to explore since usually in the books we think of Arya as presenting more masc, vs Sansa being more femme, ie. Arya's sense of alienation stems from her rejection of gender roles whereas in her eyes, Sansa embraces them so effortlessly.

So I think an Artos that is more interested in "feminine" pursuits, and maybe he has a genuine needle, so to speak and prefers to spend time with his mother and sisters as opposed to his father and Symeon and Theon, would be an interesting parallel to draw to Arya's gnc-ness. In this kind of path Artos is definitely a momma's boy through and through, which would probably draw a clearer parallel between Arya being very much similar to Catelyn in personality.

On the other hand, a stalwartly "Northerner" Artos compared to Symeon being squired with the Blackfish would be interesting too, because Symeon, to capture Sansa's brand of idealism and romanticism, her belief in chivalric romances, would need to narratively fulfill a role thematically equivalent to Sansa being the beautiful maiden of song-- Symeon now being the gallant knight.

Meanwhile, the northerners seem more stoic and practical, and Artos might seem cynical about Symeon's ambitions, and Symeon's insistence that life is beautiful or that laws are just or the likes. Symeon is definitely very much Ned's mini-me in that respect, but with Catelyn's sense of being courteously charming, whilst Artos has Catelyn's protective, almost hotheaded nature but with Ned's kind of seriousness in expression.

With Ned and his daughters we see him being somehow clumsily indulgent to them both, even if he does seem to understand Arya better on the surface level in that he hires a swordmaster to teach her (but still insisting that these are just "hobbies" she'll grow out of to eventually marry a lord and have children) whilst he seems totally out of his depth with Sansa. I think he might understand Artos and Symeon a bit more by virtue of being boys he can connect to on that regards.

I think a lot of what will inform Artos's dynamic with his siblings will be what his future path is considered to be as he's the spare to Symeon being the heir. Maybe the castellan or steward of Winterfell? In which case, his parents might betroth him to Jeyne Poole and encourage him to apprentice with Vayon. Maybe the Night's Watch?

I feel that Artos, like Arya has no real desire for like, extolling "traditional" forms of power/authority as regarded by polite society: he's a little unpolished, he's a little reckless, probably a wild wolf like Brandon and Lyanna. I don't think he and Symeon would be quite so antagonistic towards each other as Arya and Sansa are painted as being (both because I feel like their on-page interactions depict their relationship at the lowest point it's ever been due to outside influences and because fans really overblow it into accusations of child abuse and stuff). But I do think they're siblings who bicker a lot. Artos probably makes fun of Symeon with a fake voice and all, for being all puffed-up about becoming a knight, while Symeon is elbowing Artos because he's mouthing off in front of important guests.

With Jonelle, I think ironically Artos's dynamic really does depend on whether we follow Artos as having Arya's personality transplanted onto him directly, or we follow Arya's relationship to gender as part of his story arc. With Arya's personality, I think ironically Artos would be less close in a gender-swapped AU than Arya is with Jon in canon, mostly because as Jonelle is a girl and therefore far less of a threat to the claim of Catelyn's children on Winterfell, there's less of that sense of "oh well, my mom doesn't like him which makes him the perfect person to hang out with!!!" in Arya's kind of contrarian, very typical 9 year old way. Jonelle is no longer the outcast Jon is, while Artos might have a chip on his shoulder for all the reason 9 year olds do, but it's not the chip on Arya's shoulder that has to do with her anger over her inability to conform to gender roles.

Whereas an Artos who is also like Arya of canon gender non-conforming would spend more time with his mother and sisters. Catelyn might want him to pursue squirehood or spend more time with men-at-arms and soldiers, knowing the world would be cruel to him for being gnc. While Ned probably still sees Artos being able to spend time with the Septa and the ladies-in-waiting and his mother and sisters as being a "phase" he's interested in but will eventually grow out of.

Now I'm thinking of Artos as being a bit similar to Vaegon Targaryen in that he doesn't really embody the perfect warrior masculinity his older brothers project.

I rambled on for way too long about this with no sense of cohesion lol

[minasmorghul]

ok ok, re: the genderbent starklings au. a) how does the red wedding happen? b) Is Symeon king in the north or just allied with Stannis? c) How far do you think the relationship between Jonelle anc Catelyn changes in this au? d) what happens to Jonelle when/after winterfell falls? (both times)

hi!!! Answers below bc I tend to ramble sorry since this AU is kind of half-formed to me!!! (also these are out of order a bit)

General things about this envisioning is that time passes a bit slower on the Westerosi side here-- it's not like a few months of breakneck battles and events like in the book, but more akin to how in Fire and Blood, in how takes two years for the Northern Army to march down, etc. Also the Doylist explanation is that I can't see a 12 year old Symeon leading an army (at least not successfully), plus I feel like Symeon would be inclined to negotiate before bringing out the swords first. I would estimate that by the time the Riverlands are being pillaged by the Mountain, Symeon would be newly 13. Almost 15 once the Wot5K begins in earnest.

b) In this envisioning, there's not a King in the North, as Symeon is allies with Stannis and looking to seat him on the Iron Throne. Since Symeon served in the Vale as a squire, he might find it easier to muster forces from there as well (vs in canon). Also this is silly but Courtesy the Gyrfalcon is absolutely canonical to Symeon and so I think Stannis, ruminating on his own Proudwing, might be closer to feeling sympathetic about Symeon and his cause.

a) With Stannis having the Stormlanders, Riverlanders, Valemen, and Northmen behind him, I do think that it's likely a much likelier chance they pose a far greater threat to the Lannisters, who might try to take a more underhanded way out. Betrayal at a peace parley sounds like a thing they might do. Maybe it involves an exchange of Jaime for Barra? Symeon and Artos are likely both on the table as potential bridegrooms, and since I'm Starkpoole trash I do like the concept of Symeon and Jeyne being childhood sweethearts who marry during the wartime, which pisses off the Freys, and possibly other Northern Houses for him to choose a steward's daughter over their girls? That coupled with the fact that Symeon was squired in the South will make him somewhat controversial while they’re currently at war with a southron faction I think. The power of Jeynes I swear to the gods. At this point I don't think Symeon is as disabused of his noble and chivalric notions as Sansa is (in part due to Sansa having her idealism literally beaten out of her), and having a kind of semi-elopement for love seems to be something he might do as a result. Narratively this mirrors Duncan and Jenny's story, and the Red Wedding as conclusion to that I think works as well, the prince/lord who marries a lower-born girl for love, spurning the noble family he promised to marry into, causing strife and death. Symeon might still have Edmure marry Roslin, and have this wedding held in concurrence with peace talks/hostage exchanges with the Lannisters, but they're betrayed by a combination of their own men, and the Lannister forces there at the parley as well. RIP to the Starks. (Oh also in the realm of marriages, I do imagine that the Northern Houses might feel slightly miffed over Barra also having been engaged south too, over marrying into their Houses, since the Starks had married South the previous generation too). As for the aftermath, I kind of feel like Baelish's general obsession over Catelyn (and subsequently Sansa) might be transferred instead onto Barra in this AU (which still, yuck), and he might "run into" Symeon and Barra when they escaped to the Vale and offer himself as their "saviour". I like the idea of Symeon simply claiming himself to be "Alyn Stone" cause it's a nifty lil name, but Barra likely as not will become this AU's "Alayne" tbh.

c) I think Catelyn might be stiff, but not really hateful since Jonelle won't pose a direct threat to her sons' inheritances. I feel like the moment that she really truly warms up a bit (from earlier hostility) is between Symeon and Artos's births, Symeon because now she has a son, Jonelle is no longer a legit kind of threat to her place as Winterfell's Lady, and Artos because it's the added security of a "spare". I don't ever think they'll be close; the way Eddard introduced Jon/elle into the family made this kind of impossible in my eyes, but their relationship is more acquaintances with hierarchy, rather than being so strained as in canon. I don't think they'll have bad blood, I just don't see them as being close. Especially since if Jonelle marries a minor bannerman or something, her children might still prove threats, and in this AU there's not even a Night's Watch she could join in order to allay that kind of anxiety as the septas and silent sisters seem to be Faith-related organizations.

d) @khazzman introduced me to the idea of a Theon/Jonelle pairing so suffice it to say I'm a bit obsessed. It would provide a mirror canonverse Robb and Jeyne W. "I took her castle and she took my heart" (esp as I had Jonelle being named Jeyne at first as well), but also is a foil to Euron and Falia Flowers. It also has a few bits of the Jon/Ygritte kind of hostagetime romance element to it as well. I want Jonelle to play an active role in facilitating Branda and Raya’s escape here, but I think the knowledge that Theon killed two innocent children in their place would be no less horrifying to her (to anyone, really). It’s a few weeks that Theon holds Winterfell, but I think it’s a few weeks of a lot of angst. At first I wanted Jonelle to inadvertently make things worse for herself and everyone else (the way Jon kinda was at several points in the Night’s Watch), in opening the gates for the Boltons in the false belief they’re here to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks (but then I remembered that they were fighting Ser Rodrik’s men outside so that doesn’t work. Jonelle is spared from this maximum guilt overload for now). I don’t think Jonelle will follow Jeyne Poole’s fate. Well, idk she might? But I think marriage to her is far more tenuous for the Boltons to use than claiming Jeyne was Arya, since she’s a known bastard, and also several Starks are all known to be still living (albeit MIA and wanted dead). She’ll likely be a hostage at the Dreadfor, or perhaps she and Theon can escape, to the Wall or to Stannis. A girl in and greyjoy on a dying horse.

[minasmorghul]

What are their relationships with Theon?

I feel like there's a sense that Theon would feel even more isolated, with a chip on his shoulder, than he would in canon, as Symeon is obviously quite a lot younger than Robb and Jon; there'll likely be even higher pressure he puts on himself to succeed when his commander is a 14 year old military prodigy mentored by the Blackfish.

I think his dynamic with Barra and Jonelle are very different than in canon as Barra, as the eldest, was likely raised very much as the proper lady, the lady of the house, etc. She probably wouldn't want as much to do with Theon, neither with Jonelle, which is funny because in this universe, I would say Jonelle is actually more integrated into the main Stark family than Theon is-- that'll likely be a source of tension and resentment between them as well.

[minasmorghul]

Just wanted to say Victoria Pedretti as Jon Snow is top tier fan casting!

thank you!! I had her as a fancast for Sansa at one point (her going from auburn hair in You to dark hair in Hill House was the big factor in this haha) but I think she works really well for Jonelle too because of the long faced, horror movie vibes!!

[minasmorghul]

This AU that you've described should be written.

I'm not the most consistent of writers alas or I would try to!!!

[minasmorghul]

Who’s the face claim for Artos 👀

William Franklyn Miller! He was in Medici!

[minasmorghul]

In the genderbent Starkling AU how does the red wedding go down? Is the Hound fixated on being a weird mentor to Barra or Symeon?

the red wedding happens due to a combination of a spurned marriage match between symeon and a frey daughter, and the lannisters deciding to resort to more openly underhanded tactics by essentially killing the starks at a hostage exchange banner of parley.

as for sandor I do think symeon would be kind of a fun dynamic of the slightly annoying, chipper young lad on his first day on the knighthood job, vs the gruff, jaded older guy who's his mentor, (almost like jaime at 15 vs the rest of the kingsguard) but symeon spends more time in the vale and then on the warpath as opposed to barra in king's landing so I think he'll be kind of barra's mentor, but barra is more of an "aware" girl I think so she's less in need of the kind of cynicism that he offers, she's less of sansa's pure romantic idealism, and more of the dutiful type as robb had as a personality, the taking on too much family burden as the eldest child deal...

[minasmorghul]

So Jonelle Snow, what are your thoughts?! Joining the Faith or the silent sisters doesn't sound like fun at all. I did spot something on AO3 where a Jonelle gets kidnapped by wildlings, thus able to have a wildling romance storyline beyond the wall.

I don't think Jonelle will end up with the Faith or Silent Sisters, since she follows the Old Gods, but the kidnapped by wildlings and adventuring beyond the Wall does sound fun!!!

[sherwoodknights]

@thatdarnyellowsubmarine

asoiaf au: genderbent starklings

robb stark ➣ barra stark: eldest daughter of eddard stark and catelyn tully, and named for the new king, robert baratheon. when she is 14, she is taken south to commemorate her betrothal to 11 year old crown prince joffrey baratheon, which results in her being taken hostage alongside in king’s landing after her father’s arrest and execution. following the red wedding, she flees into the vale with her younger brother symeon. jon snow ➣ jonelle snow: allegedly the bastard daughter of eddard stark and an unknown woman, she had been the albatross of her father’s marriage to catelyn tully in its early days. even now, her relationship to lady stark is more that of acquaintance than parent. with branda and raya stark left in her care when the northmen march south to retrieve barra stark, she is the “stark in winterfell” when the castle falls to first the greyjoys, and then the boltons. sansa stark ➣ symeon stark: heir to winterfell, he longs to become a true knight and proper southron gentlemen and had been sent to squire for his great-uncle, the blackfish, at the age of ten. a year later, when her father and siblings journey to king’s landing, he accompanies them, and after escaping being taken hostage by the lannisters, rallies up the armies of the north and the vale and the riverlands, allying himself with stannis baratheon. arya stark ➣ artos stark: as the spare, artos often seems his brother’s opposite. while symeon values honor and chivalry, artos is a son of the wild north, oft said to be his uncle brandon stark come again. escaping king’s landing during his father’s arrest, he reunites with his family at riverrun only for the red wedding to tear them apart once more, after which he flees to essos, and finds himself in the house of black and white as an acolyte. bran stark ➣ branda stark: originally aspirational of becoming a great lady one day, after a climbing accident caused by jaime lannister left her unable to walk, branda stark becomes instead entwined into the world of the supernatural. after winterfell is taken by theon greyjoy, she departs with her direwolf, meera and jojen reed, and hodor, to journey beyond the wall to seek the tutelage of the three-eyed crow, and develop her abilities as greenseer and warg. rickon stark ➣ raya stark: the youngest daughter of eddard stark and catelyn tully, she, like her elder brother artos, had a hint of the wolf blood, being stubborn, and wild, and temperamental. after winterfell fell to the ironborn, she escaped with a wildling woman named osha as well as her direwolf, sending loyalist northern houses covertly searching for her as leverage over the bolton forces currently holding winterfell.

ask me about this starkling au

[minasmorghul]

asoiaf au: genderbent starklings

robb stark ➣ barra stark: eldest daughter of eddard stark and catelyn tully, and named for the new king, robert baratheon. when she is 14, she is taken south to commemorate her betrothal to 11 year old crown prince joffrey baratheon, which results in her being taken hostage alongside in king’s landing after her father’s arrest and execution. following the red wedding, she flees into the vale with her younger brother symeon. jon snow ➣ jonelle snow: allegedly the bastard daughter of eddard stark and an unknown woman, she had been the albatross of her father’s marriage to catelyn tully in its early days. even now, her relationship to lady stark is more that of acquaintance than parent. with branda and raya stark left in her care when the northmen march south to retrieve barra stark, she is the “stark in winterfell” when the castle falls to first the greyjoys, and then the boltons. sansa stark ➣ symeon stark: heir to winterfell, he longs to become a true knight and proper southron gentlemen and had been sent to squire for his great-uncle, the blackfish, at the age of ten. a year later, when her father and siblings journey to king’s landing, he accompanies them, and after escaping being taken hostage by the lannisters, rallies up the armies of the north and the vale and the riverlands, allying himself with stannis baratheon. arya stark ➣ artos stark: as the spare, artos often seems his brother’s opposite. while symeon values honor and chivalry, artos is a son of the wild north, oft said to be his uncle brandon stark come again. escaping king’s landing during his father’s arrest, he reunites with his family at riverrun only for the red wedding to tear them apart once more, after which he flees to essos, and finds himself in the house of black and white as an acolyte. bran stark ➣ branda stark: originally aspirational of becoming a great lady one day, after a climbing accident caused by jaime lannister left her unable to walk, branda stark becomes instead entwined into the world of the supernatural. after winterfell is taken by theon greyjoy, she departs with her direwolf, meera and jojen reed, and hodor, to journey beyond the wall to seek the tutelage of the three-eyed crow, and develop her abilities as greenseer and warg. rickon stark ➣ raya stark: the youngest daughter of eddard stark and catelyn tully, she, like her elder brother artos, had a hint of the wolf blood, being stubborn, and wild, and temperamental. after winterfell fell to the ironborn, she escaped with a wildling woman named osha as well as her direwolf, sending loyalist northern houses covertly searching for her as leverage over the bolton forces currently holding winterfell.

ask me about this starkling au