#gargantis

[realian]

I recall your post on some cartoons just being meanspirited for the heck of it. Well I don't want to be controversial but IZ sometimes veered into that, namely in how Dib was treated even when he was trying to save the world. I especially hated some of the comics like the Gargantis Array, it really felt like Dib was flanderized into a character the writers love torturing and bullying.

why is this ask worded like a gotcha?

[rubykgrant]

First off I'm sorry if this is a bit random but I often wonder if it's an unpopular take that Invader Zim can get too cruel to Dib, to the point where Florpus' tone felt jarring. And I say this is a lot but that Gargantis Array story arc sucked. It genuinely bothers me how Dib getting bullied and mocked is often played for comedy and people brush it off with "lol, you're just oversensitive". IZ has dark humor bit Dib getting humiliated galaxy wide just felt excessively cruel.

I think it is pretty common knowledge that the show picks on Dib (back in the day, there was kind of this vibe that, even though ZIM is "evil", he's the "main character", so Dib would fail against him as the humor). If you want to get a little bit meta, sometimes Dib's bad luck is caused by his own mistakes/brash decisions, but if you want to get REALLY meta, Dib only acts like that because EVERYBODY AROUND HIM MISTREATS HIM. The actual series doesn't get too serious about this (because then it is just very obvious how SAD this poor kid's life is... but if you start taking the whole show seriously, it is very much a horror story; the world that Dib and the other humans live in is a fantastically terrible dystopia). I understand why some people don't generally look at it with that much depth, because the tone of show is what it is, and enjoying it for that is fine... I mean, one episode just ended with ZIM and Dib being turned into BALONEY, presumably to be eaten by dogs. Next episode, they were fine. However, obviously if you really CARE about the story and characters, and LIKE thinking about things in more depth, then you will be emotional about how Dib is treated, and that makes sense! It isn't "too sensitive" to wish Dib got treated less harshly~ I love Dib, and I wish he could have at least gotten a few more shining moments/better treatment in the story

[annonymouslyannoying]

Okay I don't mean to be controversial but I sometimes feel like the only one who hated the opening arc of the Zim comics with the Gargantis Array. It was excessively cruel even by the show's standards and seems like they just wanted to humiliate Dib by making him fat. It's hard to ignore that they partially reused it for the movie. It's not even a case where he has it coming, it just feels like extreme bullying played for laughs and it's uncomfortable. Thoughts?

I feel you there, it's a valid opinion. As for me personally it didn't bother me too much because it was exaggerated to the point of cosmic horror which I found kind of humorous.

Like, Gaz had to wear a hazmat suit and Dib literally became half chair. IMO it was less of a matter of being hateful and more of a joke about how insanely obsessed Dib is, and the absurdity of how he's treated like a radiation level threat.

I found it a bit too absurd to take seriously which is usually how I feel about the crueler jokes in Invader Zim.

That being said everyone perceives media differently, so you're well in your right to feel uncomfortable with those jokes- Especially if you're particularly attached to Dib (I'm more of a Zim brain myself).

Thank you for the ask! I have lots of thoughts on these comics and this series believe me.

And there are times I do find the Dib torture uncomfortable so I get it. (Bad Bad Rubber Piggy and Gaz Taster of Pork come to mind)

[invader-zim-takes]

Dunno if you're still taking these, but I wanted to ask is it weird that I hate how "Dib is treated like literal shit and bullied constantly" is usually played for laughs? Also I hate the Gargantis Array story from the comics. Not many mention it but it's annoying how it was blindly praised as a "great way to start the comics", it's just Dib getting humiliated and bullied worse than ever. Not funny or clever, just pointlessly cruel. It seemed that they just had it in for Dib in particular.

.

[irkendogma]

I noticed you have issues with the IZ comic. An issue I have is how Dib's character gets treated. I feel like the only one who HATES the opening story arc with the Gargantis Array, and it pisses me off that people actually thought it's a great comeback. It's nothing but an excuse to humiliate and torture Dib for the lulz, and I seriously can't understand why this kind of mean spirited awfulness is "brilliant" when IZ does it. It felt pointlessly cruel even by the show's standards. Pardon but I just wondered your thoughts on that.

yeah, to be honest, while i've never been a big zim or dib person myself i can't deny that the comics consistently mischaracterize both of them but particularly dib, who kind of has his competence as an individual stripped from his character

like, i don't know what your stance is on florpus vs series dib in terms of how they aimed for a distinctly lighter and softer tone in the former, but i've never been particularly fond of it - i understand the membrane family situation is significantly different in florpus, because to be honest "i've always been proud of you, son" is just demonstrably not true in the context of the series and i would prefer to accept that as a truth of the rebooted continuity rather than membrane just straight up lying about past events, so it makes more sense for dib to be more recognizably a normal, innocuous kid there, but the comics didn't really have that sense of parental recognition in them and they still had roughly the same portrayal of dib as more naive, empathic, and overall childlike than he appeared in the show

which i was not really big on, because to tie that into what you said about meanspirited awfulness in the context of IZ, i think part of the draw of the original IZ was that while it was and is a children's show, it maintains a sense of almost grimy groundedness? it's definitely off-kilter and has a much darker sense of humor + general tone compared to other, similar cartoons of its time period, but it never quite feels meanspirited to me because the characters most often give as good as they take. dib, in the original series, feels like he at least stands a fighting chance against the constant circumstances against his favor, because just often he's those circumstances for others (mostly zim) and you get a sense of how and why he's capable of this through the membrane siblings' relative self-sufficiency as a result of membrane's neglect

the comics make dib feel like a punching bag, to be frank. he wins as little as he did in the original show, but he no longer has the bite or spark to him to make it feel like he can take it and bounce back to keep going - it just feels kind of like kicking a puppy. the specific storyline you mentioned with the gargantis array just felt painful to me because...it's not really satisfying seeing a defanged, normal-kid-ish dib just get painfully humiliated all the way across a frontier he originally viewed as an escape from the planet that already viewed him that way

[ms-scarletwings]

I am sorry to bother you but I have to say, I feel Dib got treated too harshly most of the time. It's the point of the story yes but at times it just feels flat out sadistic for no reason.

It's why the Gargantis Array comic storyline sucks to me, it was just two issues of buildup to make Dib a gross fat joke and humiliate him across space. Jhonen just really seems to love torturing Dib more than anyone and it's rarely even deserved.

Oh, this is the opposite of a bother, friendo!

I actually have a lot of reading to still do on the topic of the comics. I’m woefully only really up to good knowledge about issues 46-49 and a lot of bits of pieces otherwise. If what you’re saying rings true, that is sad to hear, but pretty interesting still. I’ve always in the back of my head been a little afraid that Dib’s karma could be flanderized to the point of making him a butt monkey. Especially when we all know that’s supposed to be Skoodge’s job! (waka waka)

As for the show, honestly? I think they managed the balance just fine. It’s not so much that the show was specifically cruel to him, but that sadism broadly was one of its central themes and there were no efforts made to exclude Dib from that. And why should they have? He’s not an innocent woobie, and in fact is actually in the seat of a very ambitious antagonist against the real main character’s goals. Arbitrary events of misfortune and pain were the bread and butter of the series back then, and almost no one was spared. Jhonen (who cameoed himself in the show just to choke on a fish and die for a joke) also from what I hear injected a lot of his own qualities into Dib, so I imagine it probably IS very entertaining to him to give the boy the works.

From what I have seen of the comics, that looks like a much finer line to tow. And this more of an off the cuff ramble, but you know what I think??? I think they made Dib a touch way too sympathetic actually. There’s so much more focus on just him and Zim’s side antics, and the more time you take Dib off world and away from the rest of the Earth side characters, the fewer reminders they give you about how many of his problems are majorly self inflicted and how much of a disturbance he can be to society. And, for better or worse, a less dark overall tone in the comics means that the moments of overtly black comedy are going to stand out a little more against the modernized background by contrast.

And there’s another elephant in the room that kind of gets to me, personally. As well as I can put it well, the art style change kind of really affects the lens he can be viewed through. Maybe more than most people want to admit. And I’m not dissing the rounded down, brightened up change, it’s not a better or worse direction from the show… but it is a different one with different strengths and weaknesses.

Like, look at Dib’s early season model sheets for a base of reference.

Now compare him alongside the comic and Florpus interpretation of Dib Membrane. OBVS I am simplifying a ton here, there’s a ton of room for more range than these examples.

I’m not here to say he’s a better or worse Dib visually, he’s still Dib to me! But is notable how comic Dib actually breaks a ton of the “rules” of what kind of character they wanted Dib to be. To put it one way, they sanded down some of his edges and he’s not as apparently “skrungly” as he used to be.

What I like about the change is that it actually gives the better impression of him actually being the lil dorkass kid he’s always been. He’s got a slight aesthetic shift that shows off his unique interests and it definitely sets him apart from Zim, who actually retained most of his own show design. He’s still got some funny lookin’ qualities and he’s so much more endearing

One of the downsides of all that, however, is probably that he’s so damn endearing and as a default.

I dunno if you ever watched Little Shop of Horrors, amazing musical btw, but, it’s supposed to have this whole tragic ending where the main character’s, Seymour’s, long chain of mistakes catch up with him and he meets his demise. In the movie, they casted Rick Moranis for the character, and he played such a puppy-eyed, adorkable Seymour that it made audiences suddenly too bummed out to even appreciate the dark ending. They hated it so much that the crew actually just changed the ending completely so that Seymour gets a consequence-free happy ending with everything he ever wanted. Even though he’s literally a serial murderer of sorts. You were always supposed to feel for him, but not to the point where watching him fail just makes you feel horrible.

I think Dib works kinda like that on a meta level.

If there’s any ruling on what goes over that invisible line when it comes to handling his character, I think Florpus Gaz nailed it right on the head. Dib is never supposed to just utterly break under the weight of his world. Can he sometimes crack? Yeah totally, especially in the “brink of madness” sense. Or if it’s funny. The golden rule is not to give him more than he can handle, and Dib CAN handle a lot of bullshit. He may be a frustrated lil squirt but he’s been at this for a very long time, and it’s hype af watching how he’s not slowing down even in the face of that. Dib and Zim’s biggest POSITIVE shared trait is the strength of their spirits against a world that is ultimately callous and cruel at every turn to them.

Every second you write Dib where he’s wallowing in despair or feeling sorry for himself is a second you come closer to that line and it’s what you need to dish out in wary moderation.

So I guess the TL:DR of what i think I’m getting at here is… it’s all about perspective.

But I really should read more of the comics.

[coffinsister]

We are going to see the Graves Grandmother and she's gonna be a gargantious bitch towards Ms Graves for getting pregnant early and then Ms Graves is gonna be a bitch towards Leyley because that's just how being a girl with a mother is

intergenerational trauma something something its dreadful being a girl with a mother having a mirror that suffers all on its own

[dana-chan-the-control-brain]

I'm sorry if this pisses off everyone on here but...I feel like I'm the only one who fucking hated the Gargantis Array comic. It's just an excuse to heap pointlessly mean humiliation on Dib, especially by making him a fat slob. And it's worse that it's the starting point of the comics and partial basis for the movie.

I've never liked when a character's whole role is to get mocked and abused for laughs and IZ is no exception. Sorry to bring this here but it seems like everyone just brushes this off.

....I have no idea what you're talking about.

[short-and-ugly]

I am sorry to interrupt but I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who find's Dib's treatment can get way too meanspirited. Like he can be insensitive and a jerk but then you have whole stories dedicated to humiliating and torturing him, like the Gargantis Array. I actually hated that comic and I'm sorry if you liked it. Especially since it leans on making Dib fat to mock him.

No no please interrupt I love this. People should go into my inbox more often and rant to me about their insanities.

I think for most interpretations of Dib, mistreatment is more for the shock value and meant to be seen as cartoon gags than anything done out of any genuine malice. That said, and it's been said before, some of the jokes (especially about fat people or homeless or otherwise people with 'undesirable' traits) made in IZ in general can be distasteful for some/most folks. The beauty of fandom though is that we can pick and choose what we want to keep from out of the show/other sources. If others wanna stick more closely to canon or use Dib specifically as a punching bag that's probably their business and we can just go on ahead and leave them to it.

I dunno if you were looking for that response (or any at all) but I thiiiiink that's my two cents on it? I'm not going back and reading all that. Bullying Dib is fun but it can get out of hand. But also also it's a cartoon where canonically his rival has on purposed drowned him and his entire city with a giant water balloon as an act of revenge. So. Myeh!

[hermajestytak]

Oh sorry to vent a bit but regarding my last ask I also feel some of the IZ comics were straight up bad. That Gargantis Array storyline was so shitty and mean-spirited to Dib for no good reason, and I cannot understand why people said it was a good Debut. I feel some would say "Invader Zim has mean humor suck it up LOL" but parts like this feel like Dib just exists to be humiliated and shit on forever. I realize I rant about this a lot but when the movie uses this as a premise it's hard to ignore.

I have way more problems with other issues (mainly 21, it completely misinterprets what a Gaz under Zim's influence would be like and it makes me FERAL) but fair take

[crazyufokid]

Hi. I apologize if this is awkward. As someone who's favorite Zim character is also Dib, I have to say I really disliked how they reintroduced him by showing him as a gross fat shut in. It felt more needlessly cruel than darkly funny, and I especially hate how it leads to Zim humiliating him with the Gargantis Array. I know I vent, but I wonder if anybody else feels the same way.

Please tell me if this is too personal.

honestly yeah.

i watched enter the florpus before i read the comics, i didn't know the beginning of the movie recreated the beginning of the comics so at first i thought "oh this is neat! i wonder what the comics did differently :]" but THEN,,,, they definitely went wayy too far with it 😬 all i could think was yikes

[realian]

Sorry to carry this on but remember when I mentioned the Gargantis Array part of the comics? I actually feel like the only one who really hated that, the twist is " laugh at Dib for being a fat loser" and it seems like most just brush that off. Especially since it's the first comic story, to me it's an awful start. Sorry but this always bothered me.

why do you keep sending me these messages? I told you in a previous as that I've seen many people criticize the Gargantis Array punchline. fatphobia in Invader Zim and Jhonen's other comics is something that people rightfully criticize all the time. if you have encountered people who brush it off I don't know what to tell you. there's not really even any "we need to stop this from happening!" angle because the comics are over and as far as I remember and there are no fat jokes in the rest of the comics.

[tombeane-blog]

The End Of Mankind As We Know It - Climate Change

"It's the end of the world as we know it, It's the end of the world as we know it, It's the end of the world as we know it, And I feel fine" R.E.M - "It's The End Of The World As We Know It"

The Good News: WE AIN'T GONNA DIE FROM MAN-MADE CLIMATE CHANGE!! The Bad News: WE MAY END UP LIVING AS SERFS.

According to a small group of climate hucksters (who profit and gain more power) - unchecked carbon caused by me driving to my son-in-law's house to watch America's Cowboys beat the hapless Eagles every year will increase the temperature a couple of degrees over the next few decades.

Let's cogitate on those couple of degrees for a moment shall we?

A few thousand years ago, Canada and a large part of the northern United States was covered in multi-maga thick ice. To add insult to injury, nature created a lake as big as Lakes Erie and Ontario combined right where Missoula, Montana sits today.

The ice dam holding the lake back was over 2,000 feet tall.

Every 15-20,000 years the dam would suddenly collapse, and a flood would be released with a force equal to 60 Amazon Rivers that would rush to the Pacific Ocean. These floods every few millennia created much of the geography of Washington and Oregon.

Every 15-20,000 years. Over and over.

When the next ice age happens, and it will happen again - Portland, Oregon will disappear in a matter of hours - washed away by the inevitable Missoula Flood - sweeping all the tents, boxes, trash bags, drug needles and street poop down the Columbia River and into the Pacific Ocean.

So even if you buy into the line that by driving petrol fueled cars and heating our homes with natural gas means an increase in the temperature of a couple of degrees - which means we can grow bananas in Iowa… I'm good with that.

Sounds a lot better than wearing four polar bear hides during the next ice age - trying to stay warm while gazing at the eastern horizon fearfully anticipating the next gargantious wall of water.

Or, maybe future elites will plan on stopping that too?

The only for-sure-bad-news Climate Change we need to worry about will take place in a few thousand years and it will be totally unrelated to driving cars or eating meat.

Even in the worst, most scarious scenario absurdias, i.e., the elites are correct and us petrol heads kill all the polar bears and the oceans rise and the Mojave Desert is all of a sudden at the bottom of an ocean… so what? The Mojave was under water before. If it happens, we will just squeeze a little closer together and have some beautiful views of the Pacific Ocean from the west side of the Rocky Mountains. (Los Angeles and San Francisco will be the first to go when the ocean rises - so it's not all bad.)

Look, there are two Doomsday Scenarios related to Climate Change.

Scenario One: The highly touted nightmare scenario that is not going to happen.

Me and my goombahs cause the earth to heat way up, the oceans rise and hurricanes and floods and drought destroy civilization.

Which means that the animals will rule once again and us few goombahs left will retreat to the trees where we will sip Coconut Mojitos and watch the Chimpanzees beat the hapless Orangutans in a game of Coconutball.

Scenario Two: The secret plan to enslave mankind that won't do a thing to stop climate climate.

The more likely scenario is that the elitists are successful in convincing us to give them all of our individual liberties so they can guide us and make decisions for us.

No more constitutional protections, no more free speech, no more free markets that threaten to destroy the environment by us driving our 1964 Midnight Blue Ford Mustangs.

We will sit huddled in our solar and wind powered homes, always cold in the winter, always hot in the summer, eating our government approved bug meal and plant based tuna casseroles.

Only allowed to travel more than a few blocks occasionally to re-elect our wise leaders.

Or, maybe to conduct ceremonial abortions and sterilizing genital mutilations in honor of The Goddess Gaia.

Either way it'll all work out in the long run for Mother Earth because, either we end up living in trees, or we live our lives as serfs ruled by the elite managing our carbon footprint.

The first one ain't never gonna happen.

The second one might happen if we believe the climate hysteria stories and we give up more and more power to the hustlers, elites, 'experts' and the upcoming climate biased A.I. super computers.

I'm an optimist so I'm looking forward to watching Coconutball.

[codexnuminous]

!!!

Have you read them all? What were your thoughts?

(Funny story - I read Gargantis first, because it was in my local library and I picked it up. Then I found and read Malamander, then I read the rest in order)

Have you read the Eerie-on-sea series?

Codex. Are you phsychic. Because.

I have. I have read those books.

Malamander changed my brain chemistry I swear

[thecreaturecodex]

Gargantis

Image © John Sibbick

[Yes, that John Sibbick, most familiar to a generation of dinosaur nerds as the illustrator of David Norman’s Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs, and one of the most ripped off paleoartists of all time. That distinctively wrinkled skin texture of Sibbick’s dinosaurs is present here in the gargantis, which has something of a kaiju vibe (specifically, it looks like Yongary). In Crypt of the Sorcerer, the original Fighting Fantasy book a gargantis appears in, a gargantis horn is the McGuffin you need in order to stake the titular sorcerer and kill him once and for all.]

Gargantis CR 19 CN Magical Beast This creature resembles an oversized dinosaur, with thick scaly skin and a long tail. It walks on two legs, its forelimbs being muscular and ending with clawed hands. It has multiple rows of teeth in its jaws, and a spiraling horn growing from between its eyes.

A gargantis is a powerful kaiju-like entity found deep within the lost worlds of the Darklands. They are not unique, as much as those that cross their paths would wish, but only under extreme circumstances are more than one found per continent. They feed primarily on flesh, but supplement this diet by feeding on magic, absorbed through their horn. Gargantises can see magical auras, and seek out powerful magic items to drain. This is likely to bring them into conflict with adventurers delving into their habitat.

Although the horn of a gargantis is its most feared weapon, its other weapons are still shatteringly powerful. Prey is grabbed in its jaws and swallowed, and smaller enemies are merely trampled. A gargantis can withstand large amounts of physical punishment, and is completely immune to mind influencing effects. When a gargantis is injured, it sends out a telepathic wave that makes creatures mindlessly violent, shattering the ability for a coordinated defense against their attacks.

Because of the antimagic properties of their horns, gargantises are sought out by the powerful and the desperate. A gargantis may be negotiated with, provided the negotiator can communicate in concepts simple enough (and offers a unique meal of magic and meat). If the gargantis cannot be convinced to cooperate in disjoining an artifact or slaying a powerful enemy, the horn can be claimed after the creature is slain. A gargantis’ horn can be used as an improvised Huge lance that overcomes all damage reduction; it is brittle and breaks on a natural roll of 1. It can use its magic negating properties by touch 1d4 times before crumbling into dust. The market value of a gargantis horn differs, but it is worth at least incidental treasure value for a CR 19 creature if sold on the open market.

Gargantis               CR 19 XP 204,800 CN Colossal magical beast Init +2; Senses arcane sight, darkvision 120 ft., Perception +16, scent Defense AC 33, touch 6, flat-footed 30 (-8 size, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +27 natural) hp 324 (24d10+192) Fort +22, Ref +16, Will +15 DR 15/epic; Immune mind influencing effects; Resist acid 20, cold 20, electricity 20, fire 20, sonic 20; SR 30 Defensive Abilities reactive madness Offense Speed 50 ft. Melee bite +31 (4d6+15/19-20 plus grab), 2 claws +31 (2d8+15), gore +31 (4d6+15), tail slap +29 (4d6+7) Space 30 ft.; Reach 30 ft. Special Attacks magical horn, swallow whole (AC 23, 32 hp, 4d6+22 bludgeoning), trample (Ref DC 37, 4d6+22) Statistics Str 41, Dex 15, Con 27, Int 4, Wis 20, Cha 18 Base Atk +24; CMB +47 (+51 grapple); CMD 58 Feats Acrobatic Steps, Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Multiattack, Nimble Moves, Power Attack, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical Skills Climb +26, Perception +16, Swim +26 Languages Undercommon (cannot speak) Ecology Environment underground Organization solitary Treasure special (see above) Special Abilities Arcane Sight (Su) A gargantis can detect magical auras and spellcasting ability as if it was under the effects of an arcane sight spell. Magical Horn (Su) A gargantis’ gore attack overcomes all damage reduction, even epic or /-. As a standard action, or as part of a full attack action, a gargantis may touch a creature or object with its horn instead of making a gore attack. A creature or object so touched has its magic unraveled as per a mage’s disjunction spell (CL 19th, Will DC 26). The save DC is Charisma based. Reactive Madness (Su) The first time in a 24 hour period that a gargantis takes damage, all creatures within 60 feet must succeed a DC 26 Will save or be overcome by random violence for 2 minutes. On the start of an effected creature’s turn, it has a 50% chance to attack the nearest conscious creature to the best of its ability for 1 round instead of taking its normal action. This is a mind influencing, compulsion effect and the save DC is Charisma based.