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xiyao-feels · 4 years ago

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I'm so confused. can jgy reincarnate or be resurrected? I know fanfic can take liberties but I've read conflicting things. plus the untamed didn't show his body or explain anything and I believe the novel says something else entirely? 😔🥺😕

So "can JGY reincarnate or be resurrected" is not a question I can really properly answer. My understanding is that the answer is yes if he's not stuck in the coffin (and a friend of mine has read a bunch of Chinese fic, albeit through Google translate, where stuff like that does in fact happen), but I'm not confident I'd know it if the answer were no! So I'm afraid I can't really help you there, I'm sorry. This is normally where I'd link you stuff from people who know more than I do but while I know I've seen stuff on the subject apparently I didn't save it, and I couldn't find anything relevant searching, either. That'll teach me not to save my links...

But I can show you what happened to JGY in MDZS, and then contrast with CQL! Let's go.

So, end of ch. 108, JGY pushes LXC away from the coffin and NMJ (not, note, out of the temple, which isn't crumbling!) and then NMJ immediately drags him into the coffin and kills him:

Yet, just as the hand was an instant from grasping Lan XiChen’s neck, Jin GuangYao used the only hand he had left to strike Lan XiChen’s chest, pushing Lan XiChen away.

He, himself, on the other hand, was dragged into the coffin by Nie MingJue, then held up like holding a puppet. The scene was beyond frightening. Jin GuangYao used his one hand to peel away at Nie MingJue’s steel-like palm. He struggled ceaselessly from the pain, hair tangled, as heavy malice shot from his eyes. He cursed with all the energy he had left, “Fuck you, Nie MingJue! You think I’m really scared of you?! I…”

With much difficulty, he coughed up some blood. Everyone present heard a crack that was abnormally clear and brutal.

A whimper of a last breath left Jin GuangYao’s throat.

There's a last short couple of sentences about JL's reaction, and then at the beginning of 109 you immediately have:

Lan XiChen staggered a few steps back from the push. He hadn’t realized what happened yet. Meanwhile, Lan WangJi struck the back of the fair-featured Guanyin statue at the center of the temple. The statue vibrated as it flew towards the coffin. Nie MingJue was still inspecting the corpse in his hand, the head had already dipped. As the heavy statue hit him, he fell right back where he’d been.

Wei WuXian leaped over and stepped onto the Guanyin’s chest. The coffin lid had broken already. They could only use the Guanyin statue as a lid to seal away Nie MingJue and his rampage. Down below, Nie MingJue struck the statue again and again in attempt to break free, while Wei WuXian also shook again and again, reeling so much he was almost thrown off.

And then LWJ lifts the coffin up, seals it with seven quqin strings and lets it fall again to the ground.

Then for the rest of chapter 109 and the beginning of 110, LXC and then WWX ask NHS some questions, after which:

After a while of silence, Wei WuXian spoke, “Let’s stop standing around for nothing. Get a few people to go find assistance. Save a few to stand by here and watch the thing. The coffin and the guqin strings won’t be able to seal ChiFeng-Zun for long.”

As though to verify his judgement, loud noises echoed within the coffin again, along with a nameless fury. Nie HuaiSang shivered. Wei WuXian glanced at him, “You see? You have to switch to a firmer coffin right now, dig a deep ditch, and bury it once more. You won’t be able to open it in at least a hundred years. If you do, it’s guaranteed it’ll continue to haunt, resulting in endless consequences…”

Right after this, the crowd comes pouring in. Some of them do indeed work on strengthening the seal; we're also told that it requires careful handling (which is why it's a few of the sect leaders who volunteer to handle it), and WWX anticipates the near future of the coffin:

Soon, this coffin would be sealed within a larger, firmer coffin. It’d be secured with seventy-two mahogany nails and buried deep underground, sealed under some mountain with stone tablets of warning.

Then we see some sect leaders carrying it outside the temple, and later LQR watches it be hauled onto a cart.

The next we hear of it is in overheard rumour in ch 113, three months later:

Someone switched the subject, “Enough, enough. Why talk about these things? Eat up, eat up No matter how powerful that Jin GuangYao used to be, right now he could be stuck in a coffin brawling with Nie MingJue.”

“I don’t think so. They loathe each other to the core, after all. I bet his bones have already been torn apart by Nie MingJue.”

“Indeed! I went to the sealing ceremony. The resentful energy in that coffin was so strong that no life grew within five hundred feet of it. I’m doubting it, really—could the coffin really seal them for a hundred years?”

Overheard rumour is not the most reliable of things, especially in MDZS—for example, I would not be surprised if it wasn't really five hundred feet. But it gives any sense, and certainly—as WWX indicated above—the coffin is /meant/ to seal them for a hundred years. (Though I have my doubts on this actually working; see here.)

Now let's look at CQL:

After JGY breaks the seal on the coffin, the blood drops onto the Tiger Seal, and resentful energy emerges and the temple starts to crumple; pretty much everyone but wangxian and xiyao flee the temple. LXC lifts his hand to push JGY away, but can't bring himself to do it; JGY asks him to stay and die with him, and he agrees. JGY then pushed him away to save his life, and wangxian catch him and LWJ brings him out of the temple to make sure he actually leaves insead of e.g. running right back in to die with JGY. WWX stays and watches a little; we see JGY turn and confront the resentful energy: "Nie Mingjue. Do you think I will be afraid of you?" The temple continues to collapse, WWX flees, and JGY runs towards the coffin.

(I'm having a hard time with the blocking on this one, I watched it a few times and it looks like they are a) immediately over the coffin when JGY bleeds on it and then immediately after they're...not? Despite not moving??? But the above is what I think is supposed to be going on.)

They're then sitting around in the courtyard outside. They seem to have been sitting around for a while even before WWX's wound heals (not a feature in MDZS, because in MDZS MXY's revenge didn't include JGY); it seems likely that JGY died before that, I think, but that's at least an end point. After this the cultivators rush into the courtyard. Now we finally get people going into the temple again, but there doesn't seem to be any sign or mention of sealing. I thought I remembered mention if a ceremony of some sort, but I can't find it in the rest of the episode and a friend doesn't remember it at all so I think it's pretty likely I was just misremembering/crossing it with MDZS.

But basically: in MDZS, they seal them together /immediately/ after JGY dies, and they proceed very quickly to a stronger, more permanent seal. In CQL, there's no sign of any of this at all! It seems quite plausible that they're not buried together, never mind sealed together. And regardless, it couldn't have happened nearly as immediately; JGY's spirit could have time to flee the coop.

It's also worth remembering that in MDZS when they seal the coffin at the end, it's to immediately deal with /fierce corpse NMJ/, who otherwise would be an extremely powerful, extraordinarily dangerous fierce corpse, made even worse—as WWX notes in ch 107—by having killed JGY.* In CQL it looks like the problem is more the Tiger Seal, I think? And it's not like they need to immediately seal it into the coffin which JGY is also in? It's not even clear that JGY's body actually ends up in the coffin, from what I can see. As far as I can tell there's not really any reason to believe they're buried together. If I had to guess (though I didn't rewatch all relevant scenes, or even all the temple scenes, and I could easily be missing something) I'd say NMJ might be going back to Honourable Burial Nie Land, and JGY's corpse....

Hmmm. That's kind of interesting, come to think of it. If it hasn't mysteriously vanished I'm not sure what would happen to it; I'm inclined to say it wouldn't be treated well except LXC is right there and he might like. Stab someone, honestly. If it /has/ mysteriously vanished—I just might change my mind about CQL LXC killing himself.** In Which a Twin Jade obsessively searches the world for their loved one because there's the possibility they might not be dead, huh.

*"After he killed Jin GuangYao, his killing intent would definitely become stronger, and he’d be more difficult to subdue!"

**I don't think this is the impression CQL as a whole is trying to give us, to be clear, it's just what I think happened.

#I am now contemplating LXC desperately searching for well-administered towns #we can't change places #a gentle warmth filling the deepest of needs #anger burned in his heart #more than one tag could contain #the best of men #long meta #sort of

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esmeraldablazingsky · 4 years ago

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I’ve finally hit my limit on the number of bad takes on the Lan parents I can see before I have to lay out all the reasons I disagree, so hello, I’m Blazie, and in this essay I will justify my visceral dislike of the assumption that Qingheng-jun married/imprisoned/had sex with Lan-furen against her will.

Warning for mentions of rape (in context of Interpretations I Really Hate) and a very, VERY long post below the cut.

Before I start going off about the finer points of all this, I want to make sure people are on the same page regarding what we actually know about what went down with Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen. What I say is based off the EXR translation of MDZS, for the sake of clarity, and although I don’t think the exact wording should be too important, feel free to let me know if you think I’ve missed an important bit of nuance or something (the whole story is in Chapter 64.)

The story we get is told by Lan Xichen, and it goes like this: a young Qingheng-jun falls in love at first sight with Lan-furen, who doesn’t return his feelings, and at some point kills one of Qingheng-jun’s teachers over unspecified “grievances.” Although he’s understandably very upset over the murder, Qingheng-jun sneaks Lan-furen back to Cloud Recesses and officially marries her in order to announce to his clan that anyone who wants to hurt her has to go through him.

After that, he locks Lan-furen in one house and himself in another as a form of repentance. Wei Wuxian speculates that this was because “he could neither forgive the one who killed his teacher nor watch the death of the woman who he loved. He could only marry her to protect her life and force himself not to see her.”

A central detail of this story that I think people don’t give the import it deserves is that aside from marrying and protecting her, Qingheng-jun’s other option was to let Lan-furen be executed by his clan. His purpose in marrying her wasn’t just for kicks/out of a possessive sort of love, it was so she wouldn’t straight up die. How she felt about this arrangement isn’t stated, but I’ll get into that in a bit. In addition to that, Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen live separately, which was apparently purposeful on Qingheng-jun’s part, and runs counter to the interpretation that he intended to take sexual advantage of Lan-furen.

Though there aren’t many concrete details in Lan Xichen’s retelling, he does specifically inform Wei Wuxian that his mother never complained about remaining in her house. What exactly this signifies is unclear— whether she was simply putting on a brave face for her sons, or whether she was in fact at all content with the situation— but it at the very least serves to further muddy the waters on how she and Qingheng-jun felt about all this.

Beyond what Lan Xichen and Wei Wuxian are saying out loud, there’s also quite a bit of subtext in this scene, especially in light of later events and revelations, like Lan Xichen’s confession for Lan Wangji at Guanyin Temple.

So what is Lan Xichen trying to convey with all this? There’s a lot of memes about this scene, most of which err too far on the side of Himbo Airhead Lan Xichen for my liking, but one that I do find amusing emphasizes how Lan Xichen draws parallels between Wangxian and the story of his parents (Lan Xichen: [flute solo] please use your one brain cell to connect the dots.) If Wei Wuxian hadn’t completely lost his memory of Lan Wangji defending him against his own clan elders, one would assume that Lan Xichen’s story would have had a much better chance of hitting home.

In hindsight and side by side, the parallels are much clearer— Qingheng-jun, “ignoring the objections from his clan… told everyone in the clan that she would be his wife for the rest of his life, that whoever wanted to harm her would have to pass through him first.” Similarly, according to Lan Xichen in Chapter 99, “for [Wei Wuxian,] not only did WangJi talk back to him, he even met with his sword the cultivators from the GusuLan Sect. He heavily injured all thirty-three of the seniors we asked to come.”

In that context, it makes a lot less sense to interpret Qingheng-jun as an aggressor towards Lan-furen, as in Lan Wangji’s case, the narrative clearly establishes that his actions are to secure Wei Wuxian’s safety. The action of Taking Someone Back To Cloud Recesses is— okay, actually, it’s a little more nuanced than I took into account when I started writing that sentence, so let me go a little deeper into Lan Wangji’s actions and how they relate to his father’s, story-wise.

My intent is not to dive into the terrifying underworld of novel-versus-drama discourse, but simply put, Novel!Lan Wangji as he is written isn’t exactly the poster child for clear consent. (I’m going to entirely leave off the extra chapters for the sake of everyone’s sanity, so I’m just talking about the main body of the novel here.)

He means well, and I’m sure we can agree that he does actually love and want the best for Wei Wuxian, but his lack of communication on this point means that he accidentally gives Wei Wuxian the impression that he wants to imprison and/or punish him in Cloud Recesses at least twice off the top of my head (pre-timeskip, as we know, and post-timeskip immediately after Dafan Mountain when he actually drags Wei Wuxian back to his room.)

That all likely has something to do with MXTX’s narrative kinks and regular kinks and all that, and can absolutely be taken with many grains of salt. However, these events establish how easy it is to misinterpret the action of Taking Someone Back To Gusu as an attempt to imprison rather than protect them (much to Lan Wangji’s chagrin.)

Failing to communicate his purpose to Wei Wuxian doesn’t mean that Lan Wangji actually had any intent of hurting or caging him— that was just a misinterpretation on Wei Wuxian’s part, and we, as the audience, find that out in due time— but as written in the novel, it can be really uncomfortable to read. Because of that, many people choose to accept CQL canon regarding Lan Wangji’s more possessive actions or mix characterization from different adaptations, which, to be clear, I completely understand and respect.

However, Qingheng-jun doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt as often, which I frankly find baffling, because nowhere in the text does it state that Lan-furen objected to being taken back to Cloud Recesses, while even Wei Wuxian clearly objected the first few times. In fact, while we’re on this note, I’ll take it a step farther— I find it baffling that people seem to default to an unsympathetic view of Qingheng-jun, because nowhere in the text does it state that he overruled Lan-furen’s wishes in any way. The text doesn’t clarify a lot of things, actually, and that is part of the point.

The narrators of MDZS are, in many situations, highly unreliable. This is, presumably, very purposeful! MDZS can easily be read as a sharp criticism of reputation and mass judgment and the concept of condemning people without knowing their motives! And I don’t want to sound mean, but guys… did any of us learn anything from that? Here, I’m going to put it in meme format for a second to convey what I mean.

MDZS: It’s easy to condemn someone as a villain if you don’t know their story or the reasons behind their actions

MDZS: Anyway, here’s a character whose story and reasons behind his actions you know nothing about

Some Parts Of This Fandom: Ah, a villain

Memes aside, here’s what I want to point out. It’s entirely possible to assume Qingheng-jun was a bad person who disregarded a woman’s wishes in marrying and confining her when all you have is Lan Xichen’s (actually very neutral, thank you Lan Xichen for being an eminently reasonable and concerned-with-evidence character) account of what happened. It would also be at least that easy to assume Wei Wuxian was just an evil necromancer if he hadn’t un-died and brought his own story to light, or even to believe that Lan Wangji had somehow tamed Wei Wuxian into submission and being a respectable cultivator if you were an average citizen of Fantasy Ancient China with nothing but rumors to operate on.

The thing about Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen’s story, then, is that there is nobody left alive who knows the full tale. Nobody knows what they thought about anything, really. Nobody even knows why Lan-furen killed Qingheng-jun’s teacher. Wei Wuxian asks why, and Lan Xichen can’t tell him, but I think the best answer would be something along the lines of I don’t know, Wei Wuxian, why did you kill people? Your guess on the motivations of your own thinly disguised narrative parallel are as good as anyone’s.

So, while it’s not technically impossible to assign darker motives to Qingheng-jun, the cautionary tale of MDZS seems to warn against that exact assumption.

I’ve refrained from getting too salty on a personal level thus far, but now that I’ve said a lot of the more logical and story-based points of my argument, I will say that at least some of my annoyance with the interpretation of Qingheng-jun as a possessive rapist and Lan-furen as his victim stems from the fact that I just think it’s straight up boring. Where’s the nuance? Aren’t you tired of reducing these characters to the flattest possible versions of themselves? Don’t you just want to add a little flavor?

In a slightly more serious phrasing of that criticism, I find that making Lan-furen a helpless prisoner strips her of whatever agency she might otherwise have. To be fair, she’s more or less a non-character in keeping with the general state of the MDZS universe, but making her a damsel in distress only consigns her more deeply to hapless, milquetoast innocence.

It’s perfectly valid to enjoy ladies who have done nothing wrong, ever, in their lives, but like… Qin Su is right there, if that’s your ball game. There’s also really no need to make Qingheng-jun someone who doesn’t respect women. Isn’t Jin Guangshan enough for at least one universe?

Anyway, ultimately, you do you. I don’t like arguing on the internet, and will just ignore things I don’t agree with (or write an 1800 word vaguepost) like a mature human being. I’m just saying, if it’s a cut and dry tale of imprisonment and assault you’re looking for… you probably don’t want to turn to a woman who committed a murder and a man who loved her enough to forfeit everything to keep her safe.

#mdzs #qingheng jun #madam lan #lan wangji #wei wuxian #(in a narrative parallels context)#blazie .txt #anyway without further ado here is my.... essay?#rape mention

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aurora077 · 3 years ago

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Securing Sect Leader Jin

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13926514/1/Securing-Sect-Leader-Jin

Chapter 1 - Before securing Sect Leader Jin, you must first secure the donkey.

Disclaimer: This will be a mix of canons so like in CQL, Wei Wuxian goes travelling after the temple’s events. However, he has been resurrected in Mo Xuanyu’s body rather than his own, like in the novel. Also I do not own MDZS/CQL that belongs to MXTX.

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“Wei Wuxian?! What are you doing here?” Jiang Cheng scowled.

“Shhhhhh! They’ll hear us!” he hissed, barely refraining from clapping a hand over Jiang Cheng’s mouth. That would have certainly gotten them caught because Jiang Cheng would probably have murdered him on the spot.

Jiang Cheng reluctantly shut up but glared fiercely at him. The effect was rather lessened by the fact that they were both hiding like thieves behind a large bush and spying on their nephew.

“Wen Ning couldn’t come today so I’m following the juniors in his place,” he whispered.

It had been a few months after the incident at Guanyin Temple, and while travelling was something he’d always wanted to do, he could admit to himself it was a bit lonely when his only company was a recalcitrant donkey. By chance he had stumbled across Wen Ning and A-Yuan who had just set out on their journey to give the Wen Remnants a proper send off and Wen Ning had expressed his dismay that he would not be able to look out for Jin Ling during night hunts while he was gone (he still felt guilty for being partially responsible for the death of the boy’s father and had dedicated himself to keeping him safe, especially since Jin Ling seemed to have forgiven him). Wei Wuxian had enthusiastically volunteered to be his replacement while the newly discovered uncle-nephew pair took the time to bond with each other. “Everything will be fine Wen Ning, you’ll see! I’ll be Jin Ling’s guard until you get back!”

It had reassured Wen Ning only partially, because while he could agree that Jin Ling would be safe, he worried that Wei Wuxian would not be. Far be it for him to comment on Wei Wuxian’s choices but he did worry for his friend who had no self-preservation skills whatsoever. But regardless, Wen Ning went along with A-Yuan and trusted that Wei Wuxian would keep both Jin Rulan and himself safe.

He did however forget to warn Wei Wuxian that he might bump into Sect Leader Jiang, who took his nephew’s safety very seriously and followed him along on night hunts (in secret because Jin Ling was now Sect Leader Jin and he felt it was beneath his dignity to have his uncle trailing after him the entire time.)

To Jiang Cheng it just seemed like his little nephew was whining about being ‘a big boy now jiujiu’ and ‘you don’t have to hold my hand anymore jiujiu’ (well Jin Ling hadn’t used those exact words but Jiang Cheng had on jiujiu-coloured glasses). Jiang Cheng, of course, disagreed with Jin Ling’s assertion that he didn’t need to follow him. Being Sect Leader Jin actually brought Jin Ling even more danger than before because his position was not solid and many people wanted to kill him to take over the sect themselves or to destabilise the sect even more than it already was. So like it or not, when Jin Ling was on a night hunt, Jiang Cheng would be following closely behind. No assassin was going to get Jin Ling on his watch!

Luckily for our two stalkers the night hunt was relatively simple and Jin Ling, together with the loud Lan and the lone Ouyang with any sense in his head, had finished it up swiftly and they were just looking for an inn to stay the night before heading back to their sects in the morning. The boys got their rooms and tiredly went to take baths before dinner, unaware that they had been followed. This left Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng standing awkwardly outside the inn (because they couldn’t stick too close, they’d be noticed!), neither knowing what to say to the other. It was much easier back in the forest where they couldn’t speak because neither wished to be caught skulking around.

“Ah Jiang Cheng could you um….” Wei Wuxian rubbed the back of his head sheepishly, “Uh, nevermind…”

“What is it?” “It’s nothing, don't worry,” he said nervously. He was always nervous around Jiang Cheng now. Their days of easy camaraderie were a thing of the past.

Jiang Cheng rolled his eyes, “Just spit it out!”

That was familiar enough that the words spilled out before he realised it. “Uh so I left Lil Apple tied at the edge of the forest and I need to go feed him or he’ll get cranky and will wake up the entire town with his braying tonight. I just wondered if you would maybe, um..reserve-a-room-for-me-as-well when you go in…” he said, rushing the words, then stammering, “B..but it’s okay if you don’t want to! I’ll just try to get one afterwards, if they have any left by then haha.”

“Still travelling with that ridiculous donkey then are you? I thought you’d be holed up in the Cloud Recesses with Lan Wangji. Didn’t you leave together with him?” Jiang Cheng scoffed.

“Hehe, well Lan Zhan is busy, you know. Zewu-Jun is in seclusion so he has to help Lan Qiren run the sect.” “That doesn’t explain why you’re not there with him. I mean I never expected you to fall for Lan Wangji of all people especially when you’d have to live in Cloud Recesses with their 4000 rules and Grandmaster Lan who hates your guts, but hey there’s no accounting for taste.”

“Hey! Lan Zhan is great! Anyone would be lucky to have him even with their 4000 rules. And I told you, we’re just friends, it’s not like that,” he replied, pouting slightly. The truth was Lan Zhan hadn’t asked him to stay and he… well he didn’t want to impose. He’d already caused Lan Zhan so much trouble, with his sect and otherwise. It’s not as if he could have stayed forever anyway, he wasn’t a Lan and Jiang Cheng wasn’t wrong, Lan Qiren did hate him.

“Right, so you bowed in the ancestral hall for no reason other than to pay respects together with your “very good friend”, nothing more to it?”

“Exactly!” he replied brightly.

Jiang Cheng huffed in disbelief but didn’t pursue the matter. He couldn’t tell if the sarcasm was lost or if Wei Wuxian was being purposefully obtuse. But whatever, far be it for him to help out that condescending, Wei Wuxian-stealing, Lan Wangji anyway.

“What have you been doing if you haven’t been in the Cloud Recesses then?”

“Oh you know, just travelling here and there. Seeing the world. All that good stuff. Experiencing the life of a rogue cultivator.” He didn’t really have a place to go back to after all, travelling was all he could do, but it felt pathetic saying it out loud.

Jiang Cheng raised an eyebrow, “Then how did you land up back here, checking on A-Ling? Isn’t that what The Ghost General does now that he has more free time than he knows what to do with? What could he have possibly been busy with that he had to ask you to do it? Not like he needs to eat or sleep.”

“How did you know Wen Ning does that,” Wei Wuxian asked, surprised. Jiang Cheng scoffed again, “Who do you think I usually end up behind bushes with Wei Wuxian? I’m surprised he didn’t warn you that I would be there.”

Wei Wuxian grinned slyly, “Behind bushes with Wen Ning huh, and here I thought you didn’t like him.”

It took him a second but the comment registered and his face turned red. “Wei Wuxian you..!”

Jiang Cheng was ready to throw hands. Wei Wuxian laughed and dodged and for a second the sense of familiarity was so strong it felt like no time had passed at all. But the moment soon evaporated and they were both left feeling wrong-footed. Wei Wuxian shifted nervously once more, fidgeting with his sleeves.

Jiang Cheng cleared his throat, “Well anyway your picky donkey isn’t going to feed itself is it? Get going Wei Wuxian! I really don’t need to wake up to the sound of an angry donkey in the middle of the night.”

“Right, well uh I’ll just go.. do that...” he dashed away quickly to escape the awkwardness.

Jiang Cheng sighed forlornly. It never used to be so difficult to be around each other. But he didn’t know how to interact with Wei Wuxian anymore. He’d fall back into his natural mode of grumpiness only to realise that instead of laughing about it Wei Wuxian would get nervous. Like just now. When he literally ran away to go spend time with a donkey instead of Jiang Cheng. Once upon a time he used to be the stubborn ass in Wei Wuxian’s life. Oh to get replaced by an animal! Called Lil Apple! Who’d bite his master if he displeased it! At least Jiang Cheng didn’t bite. He pouted internally. Shaking himself out of his thoughts as a large group of people passed him by to get into the inn, he made his way to the counter, even more annoyed now that he’d have to wait in a line to book a room. He’d normally warrant attention because of his status but it was crucial that he keep a low profile at the moment thus he didn’t draw the innkeeper’s attention to himself. As such, he ended up not-so-patiently waiting in line like a normal person.

Meanwhile Wei Wuxian felt like he could breathe freely again. “Ah Lil Apple, at least I know what to expect with you,” he said, trying to pat the donkey and almost losing a finger for his efforts. “Fine, fine, you only want me for the food don’t you?” he groused, pulling out a few apples and leaving them on the ground. “You’re a smart donkey aren’t you? I’ll be back in the morning so be sure not to eat them all at once or you’ll be stuck with this forest grass.” Lil Apple brayed contemptuously. “Oh don’t use that tone with me! Do you want to go back to the Cloud Recesses and share with the bunnies instead?” Lil Apple side-eyed him but took a deliberately slow bite out of an apple to show he understood the threat and would heed his master’s words, but that he did not appreciate it. When he was in the Cloud Recesses those darned furry rodents had covered almost every inch of grass and he could not get a bite in between. He had unhappily brayed, hoping to get some of those carrots the young humans would bring for the rabbits to sate his hunger, only to be unceremoniously tossed out when his master came back because the older white clad humans had been annoyed by his hungry cries. One of them in particular, the one with a tail on his face, also seemed to hate his master. He made sure to spit on his robes before he left. Only he could dislike his master. He really did not want to go back there, so he just ate his apple mutinously.

Satisfied that Lil Apple would be sated and would not cause a disturbance, Wei Wuxian made his way back to the inn.

“You there, with the flute!”

“Who me?” he asked, surprised.

“Yes, you. Your companion has booked you room 13,” said the woman, who he realised was the innkeeper, “He’s ordered dinner to be brought to the room when you arrive, so you should probably head upstairs. Dinner will be served in thirty minutes.”

So Jiang Cheng did reserve a room for him after all. He let out a sigh of relief. He’d wondered on his way back if he’d come back to find that he’d been left to find another inn as this one would surely have been full by the time he got back (he had sat for a while just chilling with Lil Apple). He’d even been ordered dinner. Jiang Cheng was being particularly generous. He wondered how he’d pay him back though. The silver Lan Zhan gave him was running kind of low.

He opened the door to room 13 (which he suspected was close to the juniors’ rooms given that it seemed to be one of the inns’ better ones) and came face to face with Jiang Cheng. He startled a bit but before he could say anything Jiang Cheng scowled, “There you are. I was wondering if you’d decided to disappear with the damn donkey. What took you so long? Don’t you know it’s a chilly night? What if you catch a cold with that weak body of yours?”

“You were looking for me? I was just reassuring Lil Apple, nothing major. Thanks by the way, for ordering a meal. And for the room. I promise I’ll pay you back as soon as I can. You can go back to your room, I’ll be fine, I’ve lived through worse than a cold night,” he said, touched that Jiang Cheng had come to check on him.

“I am in my room,” Jiang Cheng said nonchalantly, “And don’t be ridiculous, did anyone ask you to pay? Dinner will be here soon, you should probably go wash the eau de donkey off of you before it arrives.” “

“Oh. Sorry, I must have gotten the wrong room then, which one is mine?”

“You are also staying here.” “Huh?” came his bewildered reply. Did Jiang Cheng just not want to bother paying for a room for him? He’d still be grateful for dinner and at least the floor of the inn was clean as opposed to outside in the dirt but he couldn’t help but feel a little disheartened. He had gotten his hopes up for a bed.

Jiang Cheng rolled his eyes, “Whatever you’re thinking, just stop. There were no other rooms left. So you can either suck it up and share with me for a night or go sleep on the donkey.”

When Wei Wuxian looked like he might actually be considering going back outside, Jiang Cheng’s scowl returned with a vengeance. “Oh I see how it is. You can go gallivanting around half the jianghu, sharing rooms with Lan ‘just a friend’ Wangji but you can’t stay one night with me, who you lived and shared a room with for years before...shit happened.”

“Th..that’s not it! And how do you know that anyway?” he sputtered, slightly impressed with Jiang Cheng’s knowledge of things that he wasn’t present for given that he didn’t think Jin Ling talked with his uncle about that time in their lives.

“Juniors talk to each other on night hunts, Wei Wuxian. I have overheard some conversations.”

Ah. Eavesdropping. He was slightly less impressed.

“A..anyway it’s not like that!”

“Then what is it like? You got him drunk and he tied you up with his forehead ribbon and then you went to the same bedroom. You can’t seriously expect me to believe it isn’t a little ‘like that’.”

“What’s the big deal with everyone and that damned forehead ribbon? It’s not like I stripped him,” he huffed.

Jiang Cheng was astonished. “You mean to tell me all of these years later and you still don’t know?” Shit, he was starting to feel a sliver of pity for Lan Wangji.

“Look I know it was my bad the last time at the archery competition, but this time it really wasn’t me! He did it on his own. And he was drunk, he had no idea what he was doing. So whatever importance it has to the Lan at least this time I wasn’t the one who started it.”

Yup, that was definitely pity he was feeling. The poor sod. He absconded with him in front of all the sect leaders who would have been happy to think Lan Wangji was being deceived, hid him from said sect leaders, bowed in the ancestral shrine with Wei Wuxian, shared a bed with him, tied him with his ribbon, and still got called just a friend. Any lesser man would break.

But also, wait… “If it’s not ‘like that’ then why did you act all shameless and say he was your type?” Jiang Cheng grumbled, annoyed upon remembering that first day of meeting him as Mo Xuanyu. “And then go on to share a bed with him in Cloud Recesses and in all those inns?” he continued.

“You’re not still hung up on that, are you Jiang Cheng?” he pouted, “You know, I was just trying to escape; from both of you at the time. I didn’t mean anything by it. Don’t you remember how easy it was to rile him up when we were in Cloud Recesses? Anything I said or did was against the rules. He’d get mad so easily. I tried my best to scandalise him this time so that he would kick me out and I could go off on my own but I had no idea he’d grown so tolerant in the years I’ve been gone. I only got away from you because of A-Ling. As for him, I thought it would be easier to escape so I did things that would make him want to kick me to the curb. But nothing I did helped me to escape. Not even getting drunk, in fact, he even joined me in drinking once! I never thought I’d see the day. Eventually we got caught up in the mystery and he stood by my side when things went pear-shaped. You know I always considered him a friend even though I thought he hated me. Turns out he didn’t really hate me after all! Isn’t that great? You always said he did!” he accused.

“He always seemed like he did! Even you agreed. He was always so stiff. It’s not like we could have read anything else from his perpetually stony expression. I had no idea how he really felt until...well...” Jiang Cheng trailed off awkwardly.

Clearly Wei Wuxian was also not keen on broaching the ribbon or the shrine topic so he sidestepped it easily and went back to Lan Wangji. “Yes, exactly. Lan Zhan is such a good friend. I’m really glad that he doesn’t hate me. I value his friendship very much so don’t badmouth him Jiang Cheng, okay? You can badmouth me all you like but Lan Zhan is a good person and he doesn’t deserve it.”

He certainly doesn’t deserve this level of obliviousness, thought Jiang Cheng. It was somehow both good and bad for Lan Wangji that Wei Wuxian didn’t realise it. If Wei Wuxian did not return those feelings and truly did see him as a good friend, he wouldn’t have to go about feeling all guilty and obligated about it because that would 100% happen and Lan Wangji himself wouldn’t want Wei Wuxian to bear that burden. On the other hand it was bad because Lan Wangji would just be there pining away with no definitive answer and getting his feelings inadvertently stepped on when Wei Wuxian did something that was like rubbing salt in his wounds. But hey, he still didn’t like the man so, not really his problem. Especially since he would have had no feud with him if Lan Wangji himself hadn’t started acting like Jiang Cheng was enemy number one. He would have thought Lan Wangji of all people would know better than to listen to rumors. Clearly Lans did gossip after all. Wei Wuxian on the other hand...well he’d been dead for thirteen years, he had to get his news from somewhere.

He had such complicated feelings when Wei Wuxian first came back to Lotus Pier, and even though the truth had not yet been revealed, he’d still wished they could somehow go back to the way they were. That was until Wei Wuxian broke their unspoken mode of communication (through arguing of course), by actually physically attacking him in his own ancestral hall. Though he was starting to realise that maybe their shrine talk had devolved so completely because of the presence of Lan Wangji. If Lan Wangji hadn’t been there without his permission then Jiang Cheng would have had nothing to say about him. But he had been an outsider in a private space and had the nerve to bow in front of Jiang Cheng’s parents with Wei Wuxian like he was family. It had rubbed Jiang Cheng the wrong way and his words were even more scathing than usual. After now being explicitly told that he shouldn’t badmouth the man in front of Wei Wuxian, he really believed that things wouldn’t have gone so poorly if Lan Wangji just wasn’t there. Wei Wuxian was always the type to get mad on everyone’s behalf but his own, and in this case, he thought highly of Lan Wangji which didn’t help. All Jiang Cheng was looking for was an explanation, instead he had gotten an unwanted show.

“Anyway,” Jiang Cheng deflected, scrunching up his nose, “Whatever my thoughts on Lan Wangji, at least the man is always clean. You stink. Go wash up idiot.”

“Is it really that bad?” he sniffed himself. Okay it wasn’t that bad, A-Cheng, rude! But he was smelling a bit like a barnyard animal so he went behind the screen to take a quick wash before their dinner arrived. There was a basin with water and a clean washcloth to the side. Jiang Cheng had already freshened up since there was a scrunched up cloth in the corner. He felt like he was having an out of body experience. How many times in their youth had they been in this situation? Him coming in all messy from creating mischief somewhere and Jiang Cheng chiding him while making sure he took a bath and didn’t get sick. Jiang Cheng never said what he meant. Always scolding him but worrying about him at the same time. Back then they were carefree kids, a vast difference from their current situation but maybe, just maybe, that at least was still the same.

Back then also had two beds, he thought mournfully, as they finished up an awkward dinner and he was faced with the reality of having to sleep on the floor.

----------------------------------------

Author's Note: So I had this idea and have been trying to finish it for the longest time, but I decided to post chapter one at least and see how it goes because it is taking me longer to finish than I hoped.

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pawsnread · 5 years ago

Text

MDZS Novel vs. Untamed Drama

I have just finished the Mo Dao Zu Shi novel. At this point in time, I have consumed 4 of the 5 iterations of this story: original novel, animated donghua, manhua graphic novel, and the Untamed/Chen Qing Ling live action. (Note I have not yet listened to the audio drama and I am not certain I will since I am a visual person and it seems to follow closely to the novel.)

I’m going to discuss my thoughts on the differences I see between the novel and the drama and why I prefer the drama over the novel. This is going to be a long post so short version: I respect the novel as the original source material but I have a lot of issues - A LOT of issues - with tropes and characterizations that I feel the drama did a much better job of addressing, diverting, or leaving out all together. I am writing this to let out my thoughts but also to explain why some fans may prefer the drama. I’ve seen some discourse that seems to imply that fans of the Untamed/CQL version are less “valid”, don’t understand the characters, or have a lesser love for the fandom - which is extreme gatekeeping, in my opinion.

If you want to know my explicit thoughts, keep going. Otherwise, feel free to skip this entirely but know that any inkling of badmouthing, condemnation, or drama is going to get deleted and blocked. I’m too old for that shit.

Now granted I started off entering this fandom through watching the Untamed drama series. I got hooked immediately and consumed the entire series in a couple of weeks - after which I started all over again. I fell in love with the characters, the costumes, the visuals, the music. I put all that in a post a month ago so I’m not going to iterate it again.

Shortly after I finished, I began the novel (along with the donghua and manhua). While I respect the original source material and am grateful to it (and the author) for creating this world and bringing these characters to life, I have real issues with the novel and the characterizations.

Let me be clear: I don’t give a damn about the changes to the plot or the story. I don’t care that the plot was changed from searching for body parts to a sword spirit and Yin iron. I don’t care that Wei Wuxian really did lose control and killed people in the novel. I don’t care about the changes to the timeline. I don’t care about these things because that is what happens when you adapt a story to different media for slightly different audiences.

What I do care about are largely the changes to (primarily) Wei Wuxian’s character and some of the events that were left out - many of which revolve around the concept of consent. Let me give some examples from the novel that bother the hell out of me:

Wei Wuxian, pretending to be Mo Xuanyu, purposefully crawling into Lan Wangji’s bed despite knowing how much Lan Wangji hates being touched and would potentially throw him out

Wei Wuxian asking Lan Wangji questions while the latter is drunk, knowing full well Lan Wangji would not answer the questions while sober and would not remember the questions later

Wei Wuxian touching Lan Wangji in intimate places while, again, the later was drunk

Wei Wuxian performing a sexual act on a 17-year-old Lan Wangji when the latter clearly does not want it (never mind this was a dream state)

While these are examples of the problematic things Wei Wuxian has done, I will not excuse the kiss Lan Wangji forced on a blindfolded Wei Wuxian. He regretted it later and I applaud his realization of his wrongful actions, but it still happened. This clear lack of consent (even after they are together) is problematic considering this topic is quite prominent in today’s society.

I could also go into all of the problems involving kinks and fetishes, but I would be here forever. Needless to say, I have many, many problems with those as well.

In the Untamed, when Wei Wuxian finds that Lan Wangji doesn’t like to be touched, notice that he never actually touches him. Other than some friendly shoulder-to-shoulder taps, he doesn’t actually touch Lan Wangji unless it’s to remove Lan Wangji’s hand from his own arm. It isn’t until the present timeline in which Wei Wuxian begins to touch him more, but again it is to either hold him back, hide from Fairy, or remove his hold.

As far as characterization is concerned, I prefer the slightly more mature depictions in the Untamed. While Wei Wuxian is still mischievous and loves to tease those around him, he seems slightly more concerned with how those same people perceive him. He doesn’t care as much about how the larger world views him, but he cares deeply about how his family and close friends see his character. He is not as morally gray in the drama as he is in the novel, but is that such a bad thing? His sense of justice and what is right versus wrong is still present.

In the end, I will always prefer the Untamed to the MDZS novel. I will probably never read the novel again, but I will continue to keep watching this drama because I have a really affection for the characters and the way they were portrayed in this version of the story. I prefer this version of the story over the others so I will keep coming back to it.

If you don’t agree with me, then you don’t agree. I have no problem with people disagreeing me with. You don’t have to like the drama, just as I don’t have to like the novel. In every fandom, there are those who like all the versions and there are those who like some of the versions. The point is, we love the same story and should come together to support each other no matter what.

Here’s the thing: you can disagree with me all you want, but you DO NOT get to tell me that my preference is wrong. You DO NOT get to belittle my affection for a story because I choose to like a different version than the original. You DO NOT get to say or imply that I am any less of a fan or shouldn’t be in a fandom because I don’t have an unquestionable loyalty to the original version.

In this fandom - or in any fandom - if you berate others who like different versions of a story from you, you are gatekeeping and doing a fandom you love a disservice. You leave a bad taste in the mouths of others that will generalize the fandom from a few bad apples. And many of you should know the saying about bad apples.

#fandom #the untamed #mo dao zu shi #mdzs #comparison #long post

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lpgursky · 4 years ago

Note

Quick disclaimer! I am hesitant to add to this because it has been ages since I read the novel or even re-visited the show, but I feel strongly about some things that were mention here.

For the most part, I agree with OP on class in the Untamed and the difference between Jin Guangyao/Xue Yang and Wei Wuxian. WWX is “son of a servant” but it would certainly be wrong to consider him a social equal to the other two. He would be, I think, if he hadn’t been adopted by the Jiang family when he was young, but since that happened, he quite simply isn’t.

WWX is in a privileged household and position in society and he is aware of that, but his world remains purely where the upper echelon of society is. Money and power come hand-in-hand but they quite simply distinctly different concepts.

Nonetheless, in my humble opinion, this conversation imposes the concept of class on WWX’s situation where it does not recognise any. I do not disagree with what is said about WWX not fully comprehending the lower rankings of society,

but I disagree with using his support of the Wen’s as evidence for his lack of support for the lower social classes.

I disagree with that because the whole thing with the Wen’s was central to his story, and WWX’s fight is clear as day -- it was distinctly moral. His story with the Wen’s was constructed for his fight and it would be improper to use it to demonstrate class ignorance or support or anything related to class.

To put it simply, discussions on class cannot be superimposed on discussions on morality. It doesn’t work that way; it works the other way.

I will even argue that precisely because his fight was moral, it encompasses some beliefs supporting the fight against discrimination that happens in the social class discourse (the disagreement that class is equivalent to human value, for one, because WWX evidently believes in and respects the intrinsic value of humans beyond their role in society.)

(side note: The families that Wen Qing was trying to protect from the Wen clan early on and thus likely the people Wei Wuxian was protecting later on? I think they were the precisely the commoners of the lower social ranks, but I will not argue if one thinks otherwise because I feel that is not crucial information and also because they are vague memories to me and it is far from inconceivable that I am mistaken.)

I do not believe that he was intentionally supporting the gentry or should be claimed to do so because there is no interaction between that part of society he was (fighting) in and from where he used to come. People in the upper echelons of society do not cross paths with those of lower social ranking daily, if at all, and WWX belongs entirely to the former, and like I said before, his fight was moral. He did not fight for class and he cannot be their representative because he is not in the lower rankings of society and he does not interact with them. He is quite simply, not the person to do it, and I think we are doing everyone a disservice when we imply that he did not do it - as if he had a choice to.

I mean, yes, he did not, but he does not have the agency of choice here because he should not be in the first place and he does not have a right to do it. He has no agency in this.

In short, I believe there are a few ways to understand WWX and his role in the discussions of the lower echelons of society in MDZS/CQL:

0 involvement because he was busy standing up against people who torture other human beings for fun/as a display or reflection of power

he indirectly supports them

yet because he was a part of the system he was also complicit in their repression

(I’m gonna go with it’s a little bit of all three, but I agree with OP that we should not really have a conversation about it in the first place.)

Because that is really Jin Guangyao’s fight.

(Although that is not to say that WWX has nothing to do with class -- he has. Personally, I believe the fact that he is the “son of a servant” has everything to do with his person, his choice, and his ultimate fate, but his is just not this discussion.)

Pleeeeeeease get into the class one at some point because I very much want to understand the class dynamics happening in the story but I have yet to find a meta that dives into it

god anon you want me dead don’t you alsjdfljks

referring to this post

okay, so -- my specific salt about class interpretations in mdzs are very targeted. I can’t pretend to have a deep understanding of how class works in mdzs generally because uhhhhh yeah i don’t think i have that. i’m just not familiar enough with the genre and/or the particulars of chinese class systems. but! i can talk in general terms as to why I feel a certain way about the class dynamics that I do think I understand and how I think they relate to the themes of the novel! i’m gonna talk about wei wuxian, the daozhangs, xue yang, and 3zun with, I’m sure, a bunch of digressions along the way.

the usual disclaimers: i do not think you are a bad person if you hold opinions contrary to my own. i may disagree with you very strongly, but like. this isn’t a moral judgment, fandom is transformative and interpretive etc. etc. and i may change my mind. who knows what the future will bring!

OKAY so let’s begin!

here’s the thing about wei wuxian: he’s not poor. I think because characters use “son of a servant” kind of often when they’re trying to insult him, a lot of people latch onto that and think that it’s a much stronger indication of his societal status than it actually is. iirc, most of the insults that fall along the “son of a servant” line come after wei wuxian starts breaking severely from tradition. it’s a convenient thing to attack him for, but doesn’t actually indicate anything about his wealth. (exception: yu ziyuan, but that’s a personal familial issue) this is in direct contrast to jin guangyao who is constantly mocked for his family line, publicly and privately, no matter what he does.

so this, coupled with all the jokes about wwx never having any money (wei wuqian, sizhui’s “i’ve long since known you had no money” etc.), plus his like, rough years on the street as a child ends up producing this interpretation of wei wuxian, especially in modern aus, as someone who is very class conscious and “eat the rich”. but the fact of the matter is, wei wuxian IS rich. aside from the years in his childhood and the last two years of his life in yiling, like -- wei wuxian had money and status. he is gentry. he is respected as gentry. he is treated as a son by the sect leader of yunmeng jiang -- he does not have the jiang name, but it is so very clear that jiang fengmian favors him. wei wuxian is ranked fourth of all the eligible young masters in the cultivation world -- that is not a ranking he could have attained without being accepted into the upper class.

wei wuxian’s poverty does not affect him in the way that it affects jin guangyao or xue yang. he is of low-ish birth (still the son of jiang fengmian’s right hand man though! ok sure, “son of a servant” but like. >_> whatever anyways), but for most of his life he had money. he, jiang cheng, and their sect brothers go into town and steal lotus pods with the understanding that “jiang-shushu will pay for it”. this is a regular thing! that’s fucking rich kid behavior!!! wei wuxian is careless with money because he doesn’t have to worry about it. he still has almost all the benefits of being upper class: education, food security, respect, recognition etc. I think there may also be a misconception that wei wuxian was always on the verge of being kicked out by yu ziyuan, or that he was constantly walking on eggshells around her for fear of being disowned, but that is just textually untrue. i could provide receipts, but I admittedly don’t really feel like digging them up just now ;;

even in his last years in yiling, he was not the one who was dealing with the acute knowledge of poverty: wen qing is the one managing the money, and as far as we know, wei wuxian did little to no management of daily life during the burial mounds days -- mostly, he’s described as hiding in his cave for days on end, working on his inventions, running around like a force of chaos, frivolously making a mess of things -- it’s very very cute that he buries a’yuan in the dirt, but in classic wei wuxian fashion, he did Not think about the practical consequences of it -- that A’Yuan has no other clean clothes, and now he’s gotten this set dirty and has no intention of washing them. is this a personality thing? yeah, but I think it’s also indicative of his lack of concern over the logistics of everyday survival, re: wealth.

furthermore, i think it is important to remember that wei wuxian, when he is protecting the wen remnants, is not protecting common folk: he is still protecting gentry. fallen gentry, yes! but gentry nonetheless. wen qing was favored by wen ruohan, and wen ning himself says that he has a retinue of people under his command (the remnants, essentially). their branch of the family do not have the experience of living and growing in poverty -- they are impoverished and persecuted in their last years, but that’s a very different thing from being impoverished your whole life. (sidenote: I do not believe wei wuxian’s primary motivation for defending the wen remnants was justice -- i believe he did it because he felt he owed wen ning and wen qing a life debt, and once he was there, he wasn’t going to stand around and let the work camps go on. yes, he is concerned about justice and doing the right thing, but that’s not why he went in the first place. anyways, that’s another meta)

after wei wuxian returns, he then marries back into gentry, and very wealthy gentry at that. lwj provides him all the money he could ever want, he is never worried about going homeless, starving, being denied opportunities based on his class and accompanying disadvantages. who would dare? and neither wei wuxian nor lan wangji seem to have much interest in shaking up the order of things, except in little things like the way they teach the juniors. they live in gusu, under the auspices of the lan, and they live a happy, domestic life.

were his years on the street traumatizing? yes, of course they were, there’s so much delicious character exploration to be done re: wei wuxian’s relationship to food, his relationship to his own needs, and his relationship to the people he loves. it’s all important and good! but I feel very strongly that that experience, while it was formative for him, did not impart any true understanding of poverty and the common person’s everyday struggles, nor do I think he ever really gains that understanding. he is observant and canny and aware of class and blood, certainly, but not in a way that makes it his primary hill to die on (badum-tss).

this is in very stark contrast to characters like jin guangyao and xue yang, and to some extent, xiao xingchen and song lan. I’ll start with the daozhangs, because I think they’re the simplest (??).

I think both xiao xingchen and song lan have class consciousness, but in a very simplified, broad-strokes kind of way (at least, given the information we know about them). we know that the two of them share similar values and want to one day form their own sect that gives no weight to the nobility of your lineage and has no concern with your wealth. we also know that they both disdain intersect politics and are more concerned with ideals and principles rather than status. but, I think because of that, this actually somewhat limits their perception and understanding of how status is used to oppress. as far as we know, neither of them participated on any side in sunshot and they demonstrate much more interest in relating to the commoners. honestly, i hc that they were flitting around trying to help decimated towns, protecting defenseless villages etc. I ALSO think this has a lot of interesting potential in terms of xiao xingchen and wei wuxian’s relationship, if xiao xingchen is ever revived. regardless of whether you’re in CQL or novel verse, xiao xingchen really doesn’t know wei wuxian at all, other than knowing that he’s his shijie’s son. he knows that cangse-sanren met with a tragic end, like yanling-daoren before her, and that he wants to be different. but here is cangse-sanren’s son, laying waste to entire cities, desecrating the dead. I would very much like to get into xiao xingchen’s head during that period of time (and i think, if i do it right, i can write some of it into the songxiao fixit), but that’s neither here nor there, because i’ve wandered off from my point again.

i would posit that song lan is used to an ascetic lifestyle, and xiao xingchen probably is too -- but that’s different from poverty because there’s an element of choice to it. I also think that neither of them is particularly worldly, xiao xingchen especially. he lived on an isolated mountain until he was like, seventeen, and he came down full of ideals and naivete about how the world worked. I think that both of them see inequality, that they are angered by it, and that they want to do something about it -- but their solution is neither to topple the sects, nor is it to reform the system. rather, it seems to be more about withdrawing and creating their own removed world. I think that the daozhangs embody a kind of utopianism that isn’t present in the minds of any of the other characters, not even wangxian. honestly, baoshan-sanren’s mountain is a utopian ideal, but one that is not described. it exists outside of and beyond the world. i have a lot of jumbled, vague thoughts about utopianism generally, mostly informed by china miéville and ursula k. le guin, and I don’t think i have the ability to articulate them here, but i wanted to. hm. say something? there is something about the inherent dystopianism contained within every utopia, that utopias are necessary, but also reflections of the existence of terrible things in their conception. idk. there’s something in there, I know it!! but i suppose what I want to say is -- i do not think the daozhangs understand class and social hierarchy very deeply because they don’t see a need to examine it deeply. for their goals, the details aren’t the point. they’re not looking to reform within the system, they’re looking to build something outside of it. I think they spend a lot of time concerned with alleviating the symptoms of social oppression, and their values reflect the injustices they witness there.

regardless, even if their story ends in tragedy and there is a certain amount of critique re: the utopian approach, i think the text still emphasizes that xiao xingchen left a utopia and that he thought that people mattered enough for him to try, and that was an incredibly honorable, kind, and human thing to do.

YEAH SURE THE DAOZHANGS ARE THE SIMPLEST ok ok RETURNING to class and moving forward: xue yang.

i also don’t think xue yang has class consciousness lol, or not in any way that really matters, but I do think poverty impacted him in a much stronger way than it impacted wei wuxian. wei wuxian spent some years on the street as a child. xue yang grew up on the streets. chang ci’an’s horrific treatment of him was directly due to his class and social standing: chang ci’an is a nobleman and xue yang is not even worth the dirt beneath the wheels of his cart. what I think is the seminal point though, is that this does not make xue yang think particularly deeply about systemic injustice, because xue yang is so self-centered, self-driven, and individualistic. he is not even slightly concerned about how poverty and class might affect other people -- they’re other people. what he takes away from his experience is not an anger at being wrongfully cheated by a system, but an anger at being wrongfully cheated by a specific man.

xue yang is not particularly concerned with the politics of the aristocracy -- he has no obvious ambitions other than, “i want to eat sweets whenever i please”, “i want to hurt anyone who wrongs me”, and “i want to be so strong that no one can hurt me”. like, he just doesn’t care -- it’s not the kind of power he wants. he sneers at people for like, personal reasons, not class reasons -- “you think you’re better than me” re: xiao xingchen and song lan. to him, all people -- poor, wealthy, noble, common -- are essentially equal, and they are all beneath him. after all, what does he care what family someone comes from, how much money they have? everyone bleeds when you cut them. some of them might be harder to get to than others, but xue yang does not fear that sort of thing. it’s just another obstacle he needs to vault on his way to getting revenge and/or a pastry.

ANYWAYS onto jin guangyao (wow this is hm. getting rather long ahaha oh dear): I would argue that the two characters with the most acute understanding of class/societal politics and the injustice of them are jin guangyao and lan xichen. i’ll start with jin guangyao for obvious reasons.

where xue yang took the damaging effects of poverty as personal slights, I think jin guangyao is painfully aware that there is nothing personal about them, which is, in some ways, much worse. why are two sons, born on the same day to the same father, treated so differently? just because.

he watched his mother struggle and starve and work herself to the bone in a profession where she was constantly disrespected and abused for almost nothing in return, while his father could have lifted her out of poverty with the wave of a finger. why didn’t he? because he didn’t like her? no -- because he didn’t care, and the structures of the society they live in protect that kind of blase treatment of the lower class.

“so my mother couldn’t choose her own fate, is that her fault?” jin guangyao demands. he knows that he is unbelievably talented, that he has ambition, that he has potential, and that all of it is beyond his grasp just because his father didn’t want to bother with it. his mother’s life was destroyed, and his own opportunities were crippled with that negligence. it isn’t personal. that’s just the way things are. your individual identity is meaningless, your humanity does not exist. when he’s kicked down the steps of jinlin tai, it’s just more confirmation that no matter how talented or hardworking he is, no one will give him the time of day unless he finds a way to take it himself and become someone who “matters”.

jin guangyao’s cultivation is weak because he had a poor foundation, and he had a poor foundation because he was denied access to a good one. he copies others because that’s all he can do at this point, and he copies so well that he can hold his own against some of the strongest cultivators of his generation. he’s disparaged for copying and “stealing” techniques, but -- he never would have had to if only he had been born/accepted into the upper class. the fact is that i really do think jin guangyao was the most promising cultivator of his generation that we meet, including the twin jades and wei wuxian: he had natural talent, ambition, creativity, determination and cunning in spades. in some ways, I think that’s one of the overlooked tragedies of jin guangyao: the loss of not just the good man he could have been, but the powerful one too. imagine what he could have done.

jin guangyao spends his entire time in the world of the aristocracy feeling unsteady and terrified because he knows exactly how precarious his position is. he knows how easy it is to lose power, especially for someone like him. he’s working against so many disadvantages, and every scrap of honor he gets is a vicious battle. jin guangyao fears, and I think that’s something that’s lacking in xue yang, wei wuxian and the daozhangs’ experiences/understandings of poverty. i think it’s precisely that fear that emphasizes jin guangyao’s understanding of class and blood. jin guangyao exhibits an anxiety that neither wei wuxian nor xue yang do, and it’s because he truly knows how little he is worth in the eyes of society and how little there is he can do to change that. to me, it very much feels related to the anxiety of not knowing if tomorrow you’ll have something to eat, if tomorrow you’ll still have a home, if tomorrow someone will destroy you and never have to answer for it. it’s the anxiety of knowing helplessness intimately.

moreover, jin guangyao is the only person shown to use the wealth and power at his disposal to take concrete steps to actually help the common people typically ignored by the powerful -- the watchtowers. they’re described in chapter 42. it’s a system that is designed to cover remote areas that most cultivators are reluctant to go due to their inconvenience and the lack of means of the people who live there. the watchtowers assign cultivators to different posts, give aid to those previously forgotten, and if the people are too poor to pay what the cultivators demand, the lanling jin sect pays for it. jin guangyao worked on this for five years and burned a lot of bridges over it. people were strongly opposed to it, thinking that it was some kind of ploy for lanling jin’s personal benefit. but the thing is -- it worked. they were effective. people were helped.

i believe CQL frames the watchtowers as an allegory for a surveillance state/centralized control (i think?? it’s been a minute -- that’s the hazy impression i remember, something like a parallel to the wen supervisory offices?), but I personally don’t think that was the intent in the novel. the watchtowers are a public good. lanling jin doesn’t staff them with their own sect members -- they get nearby sects to staff them. it’s a warning network that they fund that’s supposed to benefit everyone, even those that everyone had considered expendable.

(did jin guangyao do terrible things to achieve this goal? yeah lol. it’s not confirmed, but his son sure did die... suspiciously...... at the hands of an outspoken critic of the watchtowers........ whom he then executed....... so like, maybe just a convenient coincidence for jin guangyao, two birds one stone, but. it seems. Unlikely.)

lan xichen is the only member of the gentry that ever shows serious compassion for and nuanced understanding of jin guangyao’s circumstances. lan xichen treats him as his equal regardless of jin guangyao’s current status -- even when he was meng yao, lan xichen treated him as a human being worthy of respect, as someone with great merits, as someone he would choose as a friend, but he did so knowing full well the delicate position meng yao occupied. this is in direct contrast to nie mingjue, who also believed that meng yao was worthy of respect as a human being, but was completely unable to comprehend the complexities of his circumstances and unwilling to grant him any grace. you know, the difference between “i acknowledge that your birth and status have had effects upon you, but I don’t think less of you for it” and “i don’t consider your birth and status at all when i interact with you because i think it is irrelevant” (“i don’t see color” anyone?)

to illustrate, from chapter 48:

大抵是觉得娼妓之子身上说不定也带着什么不干净的东西，这几名修士接过他双手奉上来的茶盏后，并不饮下，而是放到一边，还取出雪白的手巾，很难受似的，有意无意反复擦拭刚才碰过茶盏的手指。聂明玦并非细致之人，未曾注意到这种细节，魏无羡却用眼角余光扫到了这些。孟瑶视若未见，笑容不坠半分，继续奉茶。蓝曦臣接过茶盏之时，抬眸看他一眼，微笑道：“多谢。”

旋即低头饮了一口，这才继续与聂明玦交谈。旁的修士见了，有些不自在起来。

rough tl:

Probably because they believed that the son of a prostitute might also carry some unclean things upon his person, after these few cultivators took the teacups offered from [Meng Yao’s] two hands, they did not drink, but instead put them to one side, and furthermore brought out snow white handkerchiefs. Quite uncomfortably, and whether they were aware of it or not, they repeatedly wiped the fingers they had just used to touch the teacups. Nie Mingjue was not a detail-oriented person and never took note of such particulars, but Wei Wuxian caught these in the corner of his eye. Meng Yao appeared as if he had not seen, his smile unwavering in the slightest, and continued to serve tea. When Lan Xichen took the teacup, he glanced up at him and, smiling, said, “Thank you.”

He immediately dipped his head to take a sip, and only then continued to converse with Nie Mingjue. Seeing this, the nearby cultivators began to feel somewhat uneasy.

all right, since we’re in full cyan-rampaging-through-the-weeds mode at this point, i’m going to talk about how this is one of my favorite 3zun moments in the entire novel for characterization purposes because it really highlights how they all relate to one another, and to what degree each of them is aware of their own position in relation to the others and society as a whole.

1. nie mingjue, who is a forthright and blunt person, sets meng yao to serving tea and is done with it. he notices nothing wrong or inappropriate about the reactions of the people in the room because it’s not the sort of thing he considers important.

2. meng yao, knowing that his only avenue is to take it lying down with a smile, masks perfectly.

3. lan xichen, noticing all this, uses his own reputation to achieve two things at once: pointedly shame the other cultivators in attendance, and show meng yao that regardless of others’ opinions, he considers him an equal and does not endorse such behavior--and he does it while taking care that no fallout will come down on meng yao’s head.

is this yet another installment of cyan’s endless lxc defense thesis? why yes it is! no one is surprised! but this is my whole point: both meng yao and lan xichen understand the respective hierarchy and power dynamics within the room, while nie mingjue very much does not. this is not because nie mingjue is a bad person or because nie mingjue is stupid--it’s a combination of personality and upbringing. nie mingjue is straightforward and has no patience for such games. but then again, he can afford not to play because he was born into such a high position: that’s a privilege.

to break it down: meng yao knows that he is the lowest-ranked person in the room, sees the way people are subtly disrespecting him in full view of his general who is doing nothing about it. in some ways, this is good -- nie mingjue’s style of dealing with conflict is very direct and not at all suited to delicate political maneuvering. after all, the way he promoted meng yao was actually quite dangerous to meng yao: he essentially guaranteed that his men would bear meng yao a grudge and that their disrespect for him would only be compounded by their bitterness at being punished on his behalf. (it’s like, why often getting parents or teachers to intervene ineffectively in bullying can just be an incitement to more bullying -- same concept) meng yao’s reaction during that scene shows that he’s pretty painfully aware of this and is trying to defuse the situation to no avail. nie mingjue gives him a bootstrap speech (rip nie mingjue i love u so much but. sir) and then promotes him, which is pretty much the only saving grace of that entire exchange, for meng yao at least.

lan xichen, on the other hand, understands both that meng yao is the lowest-ranked person in the room and that any direct attempt to chastise the other cultivators in the room will only serve to hurt meng yao in the long run. he knows that if this were brought to nie mingjue’s attention, he would be outraged and not shy about it -- also bad for meng yao. so he uses what he has: his immaculate reputation. by acting contrary to the other cultivators’ behavior, he demonstrates that he finds their actions unacceptable but with the plausible deniability that it wasn’t directed at them, that this is just zewu-jun being his usual generous self. this means that the other cultivators have no one to blame but themselves, nothing to do but question their own actions. there is nowhere to cast off their discomfort. meng yao didn’t do anything. lan xichen didn’t do anything -- he just thanked meng yao and drank his tea, isn’t that what it’s there for? he doesn’t disrupt the peace, he doesn’t attack anyone and put them on the defensive, but he does make his position very clear.

i know this is a really small thing and i’m probably beating it to death, but I really think this shows just how cognizant lan xichen is of politics and emotional cause and effect in such situations. certainly, out of context I think the scene reads kind of cliche, but within the greater narrative of the story and within the arc of these characters specifically, I think it was a really smart scene to include. it also showcases lan xichen’s style of action: that he moves around and with a problematic situation as opposed to moving straight through.

not to be salty on main again, but this is why it’s very frustrating to me when I see people call lan xichen passive when he is anything but. his actions just don’t look like traditional “actions”, especially to an american audience. it’s easy to understand lan wangji and wei wuxian’s style of problem-solving: taking a stand, moving through, staying strong. lan xichen is juggling an inconceivable number of factors in any given situation, weighing his responsibilities in one role against those in another, and then trying to find the path through the thicket that will cause the least harm, both to himself and the thicket. lan wangji and wei wuxian are not particularly good at considering the far-reaching consequences of their actions -- again, not because they are bad people, but because of a combination of personality and upbringing. they’d just hack through the thicket, not thinking about the creatures that live in it. that is not a terrible thing! it isn’t. it’s a different way of approaching a problem, and it has different priorities. that’s okay. there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides, and where you come down is going to depend on your personal values.

okay we’ve spiraled far and away from my original point, but let’s circle back: i was talking about class.

I think it’s undeniable that class, birthright, fate etc. are some of the driving forces of thematic conflict in mdzs, and the way each character interacts with those forces reveals a lot about themselves and also about the larger themes of fate, chance, and what it means to be righteous and good and how that is and isn’t rewarded. a lot of the tragedy of mdzs (the tragedy that isn’t caused by direct aggression on the part of one group or another) stems from the injustices and slights that people suffered due to their lot in life. it isn’t fair. none of it is fair! we sympathize with jin guangyao because we recognize that what he suffered was unconscionable, even if we don’t excuse him. i sympathize A Lot with xue yang as well for similar reasons, though I understand that’s a harder sell. this is a story focused on the mistakes of an entrenched, aging gentry and the effects that those mistakes had on their children, and a lot of it has to do with prejudice based in class and birth status. whether the prejudice was the true reason or whether it was just a convenient excuse, the fact remains that the systems in place rewarded and protected the people in power who used it to cling to that power. mdzs is also a story of how the circumstances of one’s life can offer you impossible choices that you cannot abstain from, and it asks us to be compassionate to the people who made terrible choices in terrible times. it’s about the inherent complexity in all things! that sometimes, there are no good choices, and i don’t know, i’d like to think that people would show me compassion if I had to make the choices some of these characters did. not just wei wuxian, mind you, every single one of them. except jin guangshan because I Do Hate Him sorry. and i guess wen ruohan. i think that’s it.

good. GOD this is clocking in at //checks notes -- just over 5k. 8′D *stuffs some weeds into my mouth like the clown i am*

(ko-fi? :’D *lies down*)

#if i were OP i would say to me #get your own post!#cql #the untamed #cql commentary #i can go on for days on themes in cql/mdzs #maybe I SHOULD talk about WWX and class #for the same point i brought up #this is the reason why for all the interesting discussions xue yang/jin guangyao brings to the table #wwx remains central to mdzs #there's like a pecking order for such things #morality and justice always comes first

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xiyao-feels · 4 years ago

Text

Part Three: Claims about JGY

Intro - Pt 1 - Pt 2 - Pt 3 - Pt 4

JGY

1) JGY has the authority to teach NHS the SoC

He does teach him, and there's no suggestion from anyone involved that he didn't.

In MDZS, the SoC is explicitly one of the Lan's exclusive teachings, and NMJ objects to LXC teaching it to JGY on those grounds; LXC's response to this includes the fact that it can't be leaking it since JGY is their sworn brother, a consideration which would not extend to NHS. I'm not saying that LXC would necessarily deny NHS the chance to learn it (if he were in fact capable of playing it; it's noted as very difficult), but there is no way that JGY has the authority to teach it to NHS without LXC's permission. Nor does NHS seem to be making any efforts to hide what he's playing (in front of both NMJ and some of the Nie men JGY was just playing in front of), so it doesn't seem as though JGY was playing on that to get NHS to keep in a secret. I grant you the plan is stupid enough as it is, but if he'd obtained permission from LXC to teach NHS that would elevate it to new heights of idiocy.

In CQL, the guqin conversation is missing a great deal of what we see in MDZS, and that includes the exchange about it being a Lan exclusive teaching. Nevertheless, we're not given any reason to suppose it's not—and all later discussion of it pretty much follows on MDZS, where it is.

2) JGY involves NHS in his killing of NMJ

He teaches him the corrupted SoC. Now, as in part one, I think MDZS canon suggests this would result in NHS actually helping NMJ, but that's clearly not what the movie is going for.

In MDZS, JGY consistently defends NHS from and to NMJ, as you've seen in some of the quotes in the previous sections. Moreover, after NHS burns his hands when NMJ burns NHS' things, he's the one who orders medicine prepared and comforts him, advises him to go back to his room and rest, and tries to keep him from provoking NMJ; and then, after NHS has run off and locked himself in his room, refusing to open it to anyone to allow them to deliver the medicine, and while NMJ is still furious about NHS' defiance, accepts the medicine and plans to take it to NHS' rooms after he's finished with NMJ (ch 49-50). He does not involve NHS in his plan to kill NMJ.

In CQL, again, we see rather fewer of JGY and NHS' interactions during this time period—which doesn't mean that they don't happen, just that we don't see it. Again, when CQL doesn't say something, I tend to assume it matches MDZS unless I have a specific reason to believe otherwise—CQL kind of relies on this, in fact, otherwise you have questions like "wait what the heck was JGY trying to dig up in the temple". Regardless of whether you agree with that argument, JGY does hold NHS back and prevent him from running towards a qi-deviating NMJ. Although I've seen it interpreted as cruel, he likely prevents NHS from getting himself killed or injured (as happens in MDZS, where NMJ wounds NHS (ch 50)). And this is of course not strictly part of the text, but I'll observe that ZZJ has said that he thinks JGY would regret allowing NHS to witness NMJ's qi-deviation. There is, regardless, no evidence in CQL that JGY used NHS in his plan to kill NMJ.

3) JGY can straightforwardly prevent NMJ's violence via the SoC

We see him do this when NMJ is about to punch NHS; he's obviously hurrying a little, but the SoC works clearly and quickly.

In both MDZS and CQL, he shows no sign of an ability to do this. Instead he just has to deal with NMJ attacking him. When he can prevent NMJ's violence towards him, it's literally just that he manages to talk him down; JGY is, in fact, incredibly vulnerable to NMJ's violence.

We see more of NMJ targeting JGY in MDZS (see next point), but in neither MDZS nor CQL does JGY show any sign of being able to stop NMJ's violence by playing a few quick measures.

Granted, this is mostly a replay about the SoC being able to stop NMJ's violence quickly even when used by someone with weak cultivation. But it's a very important point.

4) Someone other than JGY is the main target of NMJ's violence.

This isn't an explicit claim, but while NMJ is violent on more than one occasion, at no point is JGY his target, nor (from what I can tell) is it suggested he usually is. Rather, NHS and the Nie men are made to stand out as NMJ's victims.

In MDZS, JGY is absolutely the main target of NMJ's violence;* although he does burn NHS' things, leading to NHS' hands being burnt when he tries to save them, and later injures various people (including NHS!) when he qi-deviates, he does this latter /because he is hallucinating they are JGY/. He calls JGY out at the stairs and /publically/—in front of various Jin disciples!—and not only humiliates him but also kicks him down the stairs then draws his sabre on him with intent to kill him (all this after trying to hit him very first thing after they go outside). Earlier, of course, we see him try to kill MY after MY has just killed WRH and saved his life, and his final qi-deviation is immediately preceded by him kicking open a door to slaughter JGY on the spot for the crime of being upset to LXC about how NMJ treats him…ostensibly combined with him being polite and friendly to NMJ's face, but the last time JGY was anything but, NMJ tried to kill him, and indeed LXC is advising JGY against "provok[ing]" NMJ "again," presumably by talking back to him as he did at the stairs (ch 50).

In ch 118—before the stairs incident, and I think it must have been before the Chang clan are killed too—XY asks if JGY's bruise is from NMJ. Although in fact it is not (and observe JGY's response: “If he were the one who did it, do you think I could still be standing here and talking to you?”), the possibility of NMJ's violence towards JGY is clearly present. In ch 32, when WWX sees some kids playing, although we're told that LFZ is the most popular character and although the text is replete with indications that at this point in time he is both powerful and well-respected, there is /still/ the general knowledge that NMJ is going to threaten JGY and JGY is going to flee:

“Nie MingJue” raised swung his fist, “So what if you’re the Chief Cultivator. You’re still my youngest brother. You’ll have to run away whenever you see me anyways.”

“Jin GuangYao” did indeed cooperate and maintain his character. Flinching his shoulders, he quickly ran away.

See also WWX's comment in the first Empathy chapter, when he's surprised at watching NMJ and MY get along: 'Wei WuXian had heard too much of those jokes of how “LianFang-Zun fled whenever he heard that ChiFeng-Zun arrived”.'

We're even told that the brotherhood oath they swore was unusually violent!

NMJ's determination to kill JGY lasts even into his own death—that's /why/ JGY dismembers him and sets such strong seals on him, so that NMJ's fierce corpse won't kill him. NMJ's violence towards JGY is a central part of both of their narratives, and shows up all throughout the text.

*Well, NMJ is also very pro-Wen-killing, but on an individual level.

In CQL this is a little more complicated. NMJ seems perhaps generally less violent? Certainly we are shown less of his violence, and in e.g. the confrontation in Sun Palace he is not constantly attempting to get to JGY while LXC blocks his blows and explains things. In episode 36, although we still see the children playing, the exchange is a little modified; we're still told JGY is scared of NMJ, but the NMJ kid doesn't raise a fist or anything like that, and the JGY child doesn't run away. Nevertheless, NMJ is clearly hostile to JGY, and his violence at the stairs is the same: attempting to hit him the moment they arrive outside, kicking him down the stairs, and then drawing his sabre on him to try and kill him. The difference is that in CQL, JGY survives because NMJ qi-deviates, whereas in MDZS he would likely have died had LXC not intervened. The emphasis on NMJ's violence towards JGY is much less present in CQL; nevertheless, JGY is still the primary target of what violence we do see.

5) JGY is easily replaceable, indeed at all replaceable, as a subordinate

FJ does not explicitly say this, but NZH seems to be very well-integrated and to have been there a while, and there's no suggestion he is in any way less than a perfect subordinate, or that JGY was better. As though to emphasize this, we see him dive in front of NMJ to take a blow (as with MY in CQL)—and, of course, he has the good grace to die when NMJ tries to kill him. One of the rather underspecified Nie cultivators also flings himself in front of NMJ, taking a blow to save his life (although, to be entirely fair, willingness to take a blow for NMJ is probably the way in which MY /is/ most easily replaceable).

In MDZS, MY's competence as NMJ's subordinate, and indeed the extraordinary level of his competence, are fundamental to his and NMJ's relationship. Consider these quotes from ch. 49:

After he left, Nie MingJue switched to another deputy. Wei WuXian, however, felt that the new one was always a few beats slower. Meng Yao was an unusually clever talent. He could understand what wasn’t said, and perform to the best with the simplest orders. He was efficient and never slacked. Anyone used to him wouldn’t be able to refrain from comparing him with others.

and

Nie MingJue was never close to people. He rarely opened up to anyone. Though he finally managed to obtain a competent, trustworthy subordinate, whose character and capabilities he approved, he found that the subordinate’s true colors were nothing like what he had thought they were. It was only natural that his reaction was so extreme.

Moreover, it's WWX's conclusion in ch 49 that part of the reason NMJ agrees to swear brotherhood with JGY is JGY's extraordinary talent:

From [WWX's] observations, aside from how Lan XiChen brought it up, having always hoped that the two would reconcile, the most important factor was probably the gratitude of saving his life and writing the letters. To be precise, in his past battles, he had more-or-less depended on the information that Meng Yao sent over through Lan XiChen. He still thought that Jin GuangYao was a talented person whom one would rarely come upon, and intended on leading him back onto the right path. However, Jin GuangYao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin GuangYao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie HuaiSang.

This is also part of LXC's attempt to reassure JGY that NMJ has not entirely turned against him, in ch 50:

Lan XiChen, “He has always cherished your talent, hoping that you would choose the right path.

JGY's extraordinary competence is very much central to their relationship, and the /fact/ that he has to be so extraordinarily competent to achieve any recognition is central to the themes of the text.

In CQL, again, this is less explicit. However, in episode 10 NHS praises him and WWX and JC are impressed by his talent; the captain, the only other high-up Nie man we get an individual sense of, seems rather less impressive. Moreover, at the stairs, when confronting JGY about XY's imprisonment, NMJ says what did I tell you back in Qinghe (about wanting XY dead), i.e. when JGY was his servant, suggesting he still views JGY in the framework of that relationship and at least possibly suggesting that he still misses JGY in that position.

In the interests of justice I will also bring up the important claims about the characters I noticed that /do/ have significant textual support: first, that NMJ is very good at fighting; second, that NHS and NMJ are each other's most important people. (It technically also gets that NHS hates practicing the sabre, but given the way it contextualizes this I'm not giving them any points for that one.) FJ also claims that lying to someone to keep them from knowing something that would hurt them is an expression of love—although in MDZS this goes rather the other way around, with NMJ keeping things from NHS, considered in isolation it does fit in with similar expressions of love in CQL/MDZS.

Now, I want to be clear, I'm not actually being as thorough as I possibly could. To do that, I would have to watch it multiple times and think things over for at /least/ a month, and even aside from the poor anon who's waiting on the answer to the question "what do they erase about NHS and JGY," I have absolutely no desire to spend that kind of time with the film.

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#fj negativity #more than one tag could contain #anger burned in his heart #we can't change places #long meta

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sirenalpha · 4 years ago

Note

I don’t have much authority to speak on this as I actually don’t read a lot of BL or danmei never read a Chinese novel web or otherwise before MDZS and have mostly been involved in slash fandom of basically only US shows despite watching or reading things made elsewhere but this is an interesting discussion and I wanted to add my two cents

I 100% think the order that you take in CQL/MDZS matters in your opinion of the series and the novel, I have only ever seen where you come into a series and its adaptations or other derivative works matter as much in the Assassin’s Creed series, everyone who started with the first game likes it and anyone who started with any other game in the series doesn’t like it

I found MDZS through the donghua, but found the time skip confusing so within like 5 episodes I switch to reading the novels

So I’m going into this novel having never read wuxia or xianxia or danmei and I just sped through the entire thing, I genuinely just through it was a good book like MXTX is just a good writer, I had 0 issues with the pheonix mountain kiss but I did find the later sex scenes uncomfortable and not what I would have expected from the characters, not enough to ruin my enjoyment of the novel but enough to not read the extra chapters (not that I’m usually inclined to read extras anyways)

this is where I become an outlier because I finished reading the novel as CQL was still coming out like only the last couple episodes iirc so I start watching it and uh I did not like it and I don’t know a single other person who doesn’t like it, I just genuinely think it’s a bad adaptation and taken on its own merits the worse work and I think if that had been my entry to MDZS I’d have written the whole thing off as it being overhyped

that’s the why where you get into MDZS matters part, but now discussing fandom, slash, and homophobia etc

I’m definitely with you on politicized and woke fandom being a mistake, I’ve been in fandom long enough to see the change happen and it’s mostly annoying, I’d rather the focus be on if you’re going to treat fandom as a community and fic as a gift exchange it would be better that you learn to be a good person and good community member than do moral grandstanding and bash anyone you don’t see as woke enough

it’s especially aggravating as I do agree there is way too much self-indulgence in fandom to the point where people prioritize their personal pleasure over anyone else’s pain, saying it’s okay because I and a few other people really like this and consent to it despite it genuinely upsetting other people is actually not being a good person and not being a good community member, yes it’s obviously difficult to figure out where the line is, but that’s just being a person you have to do it in real life too you shouldn’t just turn your brain off for fandom

and the reason I say this is because Anglo/Western slash fandom refuses to take any criticism for its homophobia because their personal pleasure and what they want to write and indulge in is their only priority and it’s sacrosanct because it’s mostly written by women I guess which doesn’t fly as a reason for it to be above criticism, like I don’t have a problem with making a male character into a bottom, but I do have a problem when in the process of making that male character a bottom you humiliate them and feminize them to demean them and you absolutely see it with WWX in people wanting him to be the wife

and this leads back around to being ok with people criticizing MXTX for her portrayal of gay sex

here’s the thing I liked MDZS enough to read SVSSS which was also funny and enjoyable though clearly written with less experience, but like MDZS the sex scene was extremely uncomfortable not that I think you were supposed to enjoy it but it left a bad enough taste in my mouth to the point that I was reluctant to read TGCF

like I’ve seen people defend the way MXTX wrote the sex scenes or blamed it on translation but that doesn’t sit well with me when it’s in two novels translated by different people and both times it reads like it’s a punishment to one of the characters, that’s not an accident or a translation error, it’s not from fandom bias or fanfic expectations or familiarity with danmei tropes

absolutely not all of the criticism is in good faith as pointed out above and slash fandom is homophobic as well and I’m sure completely hypocritical on this but MXTX did establish a trend of bad gay sex and homophobia doesn’t get a cultural relativism pass, any gay person anywhere should be allowed to either criticize or at least bring up if they have a problem with something because they feel it may be homophobic

I'm gonna go on a limb here and say something I've been thinking about. So, I watched cql before reading the novel, and when I first read mdzs I have to say I was a bit thrown off by the Phoenix Mountain kiss, so of course my first instinct was to come to this hellsite and try to find what other people thought of it. The more I looked into it, the more I was convinced that the reason so many people hate it so irrationally and why it is apparently so hard for some to analyse any possible meaning beyond the obvious things in that scene, is because people that were introduced to mdzs via cql often go into the novel trying to get some sort of "fandom experience".

What I mean is that people will read mxtx's work and expect to get the same gratification they get whenever they find a good fic. Something tailored to their taste and characters built upon the preconceived ideas (often fanon) they have of each of them. It's a problem I've noticed a lot with queer media reception by people who are active in fandom. It's one of the things I am critical of and why I am so adamant to join fandom discussions, because I feel like many fandoms have created spaces where the queer characters are made to be these perfect examples of representation, so whenever queer characters are allowed to be flawed and make bad decisions people often jump on the bandwagon of calling it problematic and homophobic, instead of putting some effort into reading further than what is in plain sight and being critical of the possible meaning behind the character's actions.

Sorry for the long ask, but I wanted to get this out of my system. Tried my best, but English is not my first language, so I'm sorry if anything is weird or hard to understand.

Hi anon,

I think you are definitely unto something when you say: “people will read mxtx's work and expect to get the same gratification they get whenever they find a good fic. Something tailored to their taste and characters built upon the preconceived ideas (often fanon) they have of each of them.” It certainly would explain why so many people, even while aware that the series is an adaptation of the book, say stuff like “novel!LWJ is OOC”. They might have approached the novel as just the “fanfic” of CQL that includes “canon Wangxian”, without considering how much had been potentially changed through the process of adapting MDZS and making it palatable according to censorship.

I agree with you that the current state of fandom, where fic writers seem focused on avoiding being Problématique at all cost, has not only stiffled creativity but created in certain fans unreasonable expectations towards other works. Fandom, as a creative context, is generally focused on (self-)indulgence, on feel-goodness, and is largely pretty dry in terms of themes. But to expect all creatives to have the same “goal” or approach when it comes to art is simply ridiculous. For some people, art is a safe means through which to explore difficult, violent or outlandish set-ups. Art can be used to make people feel uncomfortable, unsettled just as it can be used to make people feel uplifted and moved. Art can be focused on exploring nuanced and controversial topics. Art can be used to portray irredeemable assholes, losers or monsters. Art can be depressing and deny us any feelings of satisfaction. Art can do so many things! And, yes, sometimes creativity is mobilised in the service of writing the nth wholesome gay coffee store AU for a popular anglo property: but that’s neither the norm nor the rule.

I think as well in terms of queer representation that we lose a lot when we try to argue that the only way to “fight” homophobia is to present queer characters and queer relationships that are Unproblématique and fit a constantly-shifting standard of what is “not-homophobic”. Take the current obsession with the idea that all gay men must be switches or otherwise be a homophobic stereotype: putting aside all that needs to be unpacked in that belief, imagine a world where it’s the accepted idea everywhere that you can’t write about gay men lest they be switches. How many queer experiences would we be erasing in the process? Or, again, this weird idea that it’s “bad” to write in fem queer men because that’s a stereotype, when the real issue is just that fem queer men have generally only been written as one-dimensional characters present in the narrative for comedic purposes, and not as fully-fledged humans with complex internal lives and relationships. As a Problématique Gay, I hate the idea that only perfect queer narratives can exist. Nah, people, queer existence is complex, and queer people are not perfect (although we’re cooler than the str8s). It’s just.... believe me, the continued existence of homophobia is not determined by whether characters in books have the “correct” kind of sex or whatever.

NB: I have to say, as well, that the first time I came across the Phoenix Mountain kiss, I thought (in bad faith) that it had been added just as a sort of unfortunate fan service since the novel was published chapter by chapter. But when I finished the book and thought back on it, the inclusion of the Phoenix Mountain kiss made sense, narratively and thematically. It also forced me to recognise that, even if I had read MDZS before I ever watched CQL, I had started reading MDZS with my own preconceptions (which were certainly not helped by the framing of the translation) : that it would be just another middling danmei full of the same tired tropes. I was glad to be proven wrong!

#mdzs #mxtx #here just have all the thoughts I've been sitting on for a while

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