#federation cardassian war

[isagrimorie]

Sometimes there really are interesting things on Reddit, found this one particular passage on r/DaystromInstitute talking about Starfleet and the Cardassian war, in particular, Miles O'Brien and Kathryn Janeway's experiences in a ground war:

Ground combat was much different. O'Brian's reactions to the Cardassians in 'The Wounded' are clear that ground combat wasn't as clean for the Federation as it was in space. Same with Captain Maxwell. Even Captain Janeway was in ground combat in the Federation/Cardassian war (I think it was the episode 'Prey' where Janeway told Seven of a time during the war when she was only Lt. Janeway). O'Brian carrying anger against the Cardassians for making him into a killer. Maxwell so used to destroying Cardassian ships that a year after the treaty is signed he's still in the habit of blowing up Cardassian ships. Janeway, it's entirely possible that until the war ended she spent her entire Starfleet career in combat, earning battlefield promotions, flying up the chain of command to Commander and with the impossible situation that Voyager was in after her promotion to Captain and first command being Voyager, she found herself trying to balance Starfleet ideologies with her own history of being willing to use violence, or in her case, too willing in a few episodes.

This is an interesting thought, I remember being surprised knowing Janeway actually was in actual ground combat. As we learned from DS9, and Strange New Worlds, ground combat is a lot different from ship-to-ship battle.

Ships can also be dangerous but Starfleet shines with ship battles. Ground combats are harder, and bloodier, and leave long-lasting marks on the soldiers who find themselves in them.

I wonder if Janeway distinguishing herself in the Cardassian war is the reason why Voyager got the assignment to go after the Maquis. But also, Janeway might have wanted to distance herself from the war more and focus on science.

But the Delta Quadrant kept pushing her into that place again.

Like, now I wish Janeway interacted with O'Brien at least, two Cardassian war vets.

ETA:

Another good r/DaystromInstitute post on Janeway:

Janeway is intentionally written as a character who intellectually believes in the ideals of the Federation, but whose actions are not always in line with her stated beliefs. I think this is very human and understandable. Very few real humans are as moral as Picard. This is why Quark's quote:

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

rings so true. Janeway is trying hard to not be the type of human Quark describes, but she is failing. She still tries, though, which I think is important.

All this just makes me love Janeway more, also Starfleet is terrible with mental health.

[short-wooloo]

How come we haven't gotten any Star Trek shows set between Undiscovered Country and TNG?

Like, it's a 70 year gap, plenty of time to work with, and per the backstories of TNG and DS9 there are some interesting events within to explore, the voyages of the Enterprise-C, the Federation-Cardassian War, the histories of various TNG/DS9/VOY characters, or just make new stuff as there's a lot of empty space in the timeline

[andyoullhearitagain]

Talking about DS9 like:

[fauvester]

iskra in one of the more elaborate mod hairstyles of post-Fire cardassia. bouffants and romulan fringes...

[kingoftheu]

The thing that must be remembered about Section 31 is that their genocidal plan in the Dominion War had no impact on if the Federation won or lost the war. By the time to came into play the Alliance had already overun every Dominion position in the Sector.

[ronsenburg]

tangentially related to that bajoran earring art I just reblogged.

you ever sometimes make a decision for your story based entirely on aesthetics and then realize the implication of what you’ve done and have to bend over backwards to justify it all? that’s me, making sylvain bajoran four years ago because nose ridges are hot and also earring. then realizing that I have to fit a canon elite square peg into a subjugated species round hole. then waste time wonder if you’re being insensitive and if you have any right to bring that element into your story at all. but then realize you’ve spent four years with this character in this role and you can’t change it now and. yeah.

to the people who started following me after I posted that tactility prologue: i’m working on it.

[vexillology-for-brains]

Once again the Federation has proved to be the best in the Milky Way

Congratulations to the United Federation of Planets for winning the Star Trek Flag Wars!

It beat the flag of Denobula with 61 percent of the vote! Since people seemed to enjoy this tournament, I’ll make sure to do more fictional flag tournaments in the future. Let me know what fictional flag tournaments you would be interested in, and stay tuned for the Animal Crossing Flag Wars, which will begin within the next few weeks if I get enough submissions.

[glamourweaver]

There is a popular argument that Captain Maxwell and later the Maquis hardliners were right about the Cardassians and that the Dominion War happened because the Federation didn’t listen.

The problem with this argument is it skips to the start of the Dominion War and fails to take into account a huge part of the sequence of events.

Cardassia had not just proven containable but on a road of clear reform, starting with the withdrawal from Bajor, but going into overdrive after the fall of the Obsidian Order, with the Detapa Council taking power from Central Command. Maxwell and the Maquis were right about Central Command, but failed to take into account the ongoing decline of its power.

That progress crashed and burned only because of the Klingons launching their unprovoked invasion, effectively chasing Cardassia into the waiting arms of the Dominion - which is why the changelings orchestrated it.

When that sequence of events are taken into account the idea that DS9 advocates hard militancy in its narrative in its portrayal of Cardassia as a foe that demanded it really falls apart. The hard aggression response to Cardassia that Maxwell and the Maquis advocated for (as executed by the Klingons) is exactly what undid their path toward reform and peace and led to the reestablishment of a fascist state under the Dominion.

[quasi-normalcy]

So for the record, I actually do want a 25th century Star Trek series. I'm even fine with doing Star Trek: Legacy, as a series about Seven and Raffi on the Enterprise (though I'd prefer they call it something else, and i don't want Jack Crusher to be there). But if they're going to do it, then I bloody well hope that they get all of the writers together in a room and actually systematically map out the state of the universe in the 25th century, and what ramifications all of the huge, earth-shattering events that have happened since Deep Space Nine have had.

What *is* the state of the Federation, given all of the moral compromises it's been shown to have made? What does it mean that an entire generation of Starfleet personnel are now ex-Borg? What does it mean that a faction of Borg are now aligned with the Federation? What do the other powers in the Alpha Quadrant make of this? How many members of Starfleet's older generation are now dead? What's going on with the Romulan Free State and its refugee crisis? Are the Klingons taking advantage of this situation? Is there any prospect of peace with the Changelings, given that they actually seem to have largely legitimate grievances this time around? Are you going to repatriate the Rogue Changelings to the Dominion, or hold them indefinitely? And if the latter...what does the Dominion make of this? What's on the other side of that transwarp conduit? How are the Zhat Vash reacting to the Androids now being a Federation protectorate? What are the major threats of the 25th century? Why were Androids covered by the Synth Ban but Holograms apparently not? Did Bajor join the Federation? What's the state of the Cardassian Union 30 years after the end of the Dominion War? Etc. Etc. Etc.

And I really don't think that Terry Matalas, with his hyperfocus on legacy characters and Easter Eggs and his complete indifference to exploring consequences, is the right man to head this up.

[1trilliongrams]

Baffled by those criticizing Star Trek Lower Decks 4.06 saying Rom was too dumb and Leeta was corrupted.

Did they... watch the episode?

It needs saying AGAIN: it was a classic dumb cop/reasonable cop routine. They are putting on an act. Rom only plays dumb. Leeta doesn't care about the latinum. They need to know the Federation will respect their culture.

They both personally witnessed and experienced colonialism, and they must ensure it won't happen to Ferenginar.

Kira wasn't the only one rankled by Starfleet presence on Terok Nor/DS9, though it turned out advantageous in the war. Leeta very likely harbors caution from the seeming takeover of DS9 by the Federation and the trauma of Cardassian. Occupation.

[youngpettyqueen]

I need I need I neeeeeeeed Star Trek stuff that isnt set on a Federation starship, or on any Federation ship. I need, like, a series where every season, or a bunch of miniseries, and every season/series is set with a different species on one of their ships and you get a one season type plot with that ship and its characters. and each ship isnt just a ship meant for exploring- give me diversity! different ships!

picture it with me. a Klingon medical ship responding to different distress signals from ships and planets alike, bringing medical aid to both the Empire and non-Klingons alike. a Cardassian cargo ship, with the plot slowly unveiling every episode and being related to what the crew is transporting. a Romulan science ship charting stars and phenomena, chasing after something they can't explain. a Vulcan carrier ship where we can see more of what ranks and titles look like with Vulcans, serving directly under a Vulcan who's very high-ranking. a Vorta and Jem'Hadar ship, maybe defectors from the Dominion War, exploring the Gamma Quadrant. Ferengi luxury travel ship. Andorian mining ship. Tellarite repair ship. I could go on and on just give me more stuff that isnt about Federation ships pleeeeeeease

[eco-lite]

My favorite moments from David Mack's Control. Most of them are Garak, even though he's barely in this book...

[Text ID: “’I'm well aware that you're all fugitives of the highest order in the Federation. Nothing new for you, Doctor, or for your inamorata"—he let contempt drip off that last word—"though I have to imagine being the target of an interstellar dragnet must be something of a new experience for your friends.’” End ID]

Okay this is hilarious. David Mack establishes that Sarina Douglas (the genetically-engineered woman Julian helps in "Statistical Probabilities." Remember her?) and Julian have been in a relationship for a while, but he's also clearly a garashir shipper who loves to make Garak suffer. Jealous!Garak my beloved.

[Text ID: “Garak shot a wary look at his bodyguards, then he moved closer to Bashir. ‘Are you asking as a Starfleet officer? As a doctor? Or as a man in need of asylum?’ ‘I'm asking as your friend.... Help us, Elim.’ It might have been nothing more than Bashir's imagination, but he thought he saw the faintest hint of jealousy in Garak's eyes when the castellan glanced at Sarina. But then Garak looked back at Bashir and smiled. ‘Very well, Julian. For an old friend... anything is possible.’” End ID]

Poor Garak. This is truly painful. Especially since Julian recognizes his jealousy and doesn't ever address it.

[Text ID: “’Executions without judicial oversight? It's an obscenity masquerading as national security.’  ‘Yes. And it's also how the Obsidian Order kept total control over the Cardassian Union for nearly a century.’ That put an end to Bashir's perambulation. ‘Wait, no. I didn't mean to say—' ‘That any part of the Federation could ever have anything in common with the Obsidian Order? Or with the Tal Shiar? Oh, how I envy your naïveté, Doctor. To believe that any nation state could ever endure without having an appendage willing to stain itself in blood—what a luxury it must be to live in the arms of such delusion.’ He expected a tirade from Bashir. A red-faced defense of the Federation's principles, its integrity, its virtue. Instead the doctor reined in his dudgeon and approached Garak's desk. He set his knuckles on the polished wood and bowed his head while he drew a calming breath. ‘I can't deny there's rot in the core of Starfleet. In the heart of the Federation. I've seen it.’ He looked up at Garak, and his eyes had the hard, unyielding focus of a man ready to go to war. ‘I came to you because I need to know how to stop it. How to end it. How to destroy it.’ ‘Well, that's simple, Doctor. What worked for Cardassia will work for the Federation. To excise this cancer from your body politic, all you need to do is kill the body, burn it down to ash, then resurrect and rebuild it with wiser eyes and a sadder heart.’ Bashir's brow creased with scorn. ‘You mock me.’ ‘Not at all, Doctor. You saw what happened to this world at the end of the Dominion War—to all the planets of the Cardassian Union. The Dominion burned us to the ground. Slew all but a fraction of our population. Left us with nothing but cinders and cenotaphs. That is what it took to free Cardassia from the grip of the Obsidian Order. Are you ready to pay that price so the people of the Federation can bask in the purity of their liberty? Is it worth the blood of billions? Is it worth seeing your worlds on fire?’ ‘You make it sound as if there's no middle ground,’ Bashir protested. ‘No choice besides surrender or slaughter.’ Garak saw no reason to blunt the truth's cutting edge. ‘Why else would such programs exist, Doctor? What is the value of intelligence if it doesn't lead to action?’ This time Bashir rose to Garak's challenge. ‘What is the value of action if it betrays all that we stand for?’ His shoulders slumped as if they bore a terrible weight. ‘Garak, I didn't come here to be lectured, or to be told I'm too idealistic. I came here for advice.’ ‘Of what sort?’ ‘The kind that will help me stop Thirty-one. Permanently.’ Maybe the doctor was foolhardy. Perhaps his mission was doomed to fail. But there was no denying the man possessed the courage of his convictions. Garak tried to remember what that had felt like in his long-ago squandered youth—and then he realized, to his shame, that he had never known the sweet sting of such passions. ‘If you want to kill Section Thirty-one,’ he said, ‘you'll need to turn their greatest strength against them—transform it into their most dire weakness. They thrive on secrecy, on anonymity, just as the Obsidian Order once did. Take that away from them. Expose them and they'll be vulnerable—and that's when you strike the killing blow.’ He set his palms on the desktop and leaned forward to emphasize his final piece of counsel. ‘But make sure you leave nothing of your enemy intact. When your work is done, don't try to turn their assets to your advantage. Destroy them all, every last one—or else the monster will simply rise again.’” End ID]

Although the concept and plot of this book is really interesting, I was generally not impressed by the characterization in this book. But Garak is an exception. I love this passage because it's a brief return to Garak and Julian's cherished philosophical debates. And it so perfectly encapsulates Garak's world-view after all he's been through. He's under no delusions of how far a society will go to "protect itself." Or how hard it can be to dismantle a broken system. He's experienced both tragedies first-hand.

[Text ID: “’The codicil concerning Doctor Bashir indicated a ninety-four percent likelihood that he would seek the aid of his former lover and Deep Space Nine crewmate, Captain Ezri Dax. Instead, he ran to Castellan Elim Garak.’" End ID]

Ha. That's telling, isn't it...

[Text ID: “’Have you considered the possibility that you've chosen the wrong side?’ The question felt to Bashir like a vote of no confidence. He hoped he had heard Garak wrong. ‘What do you mean, the wrong side?’ ‘I merely mean to ask, Julian, if you've ever stopped to entertain the notion that perhaps Section Thirty-one serves a valid purpose?’ The question itself offended Bashir. ‘Don't be absurd, Garak. Thirty-one wields deadly power with absolutely no legal accountability or oversight. It commits countless crimes against Federation citizens and foreign peoples. It steals, defrauds, counterfeits, murders. It acts in the name of the Federation while betraying every principle for which we stand. Its continued existence is an insult to our entire civilization.’ Garak struck an imperious pose. ‘Really? An insult? What if that insult to your Federation is the only reason it still exists?’ He prowled forward, crossing Bashir's imaginary boundary of personal space. ‘Every nation-state in history has relied, at one time or another, on the services of such organizations for their very survival. Why should yours be any different?’” End ID]

Devil's advocate as always. But Garak has a point. Cardassia was only able to maintain it's strictly military society--the status quo--because of the Obsidian Order. Based on his own experience, it's reasonable to think that Section Thirty-one may be the only thing holding the Federation together. No matter how much its actions go against the holier-than-thou principles the Federation claims to uphold.

[Text ID: “’Beliefs are dangerous things, Julian. Once we invest in them, it can be hard to challenge them without invoking cognitive dissonance. But in this case, I suggest you try. Because if I'm correct, going to war with Section Thirty-one can only end badly for you. Either you will lose, and you and all your friends will suffer gruesome fates I'd rather not imagine; or you will win—and in so doing, end up inflicting more harm than good upon your beloved Federation.’" End ID]

Not Garak trying to predict the ending of the book. Somehow the real ending was a mix of both. And that "beliefs are dangerous things" line... Yeah.

[Text ID: (Referring to the décor of the Federation Headquarters in Paris, which is scientifically constructed to be soothing and discourage potential violent behavior) “Like the Federation's pervasive imperialism, the lobby's social controls were subtle and hideously effective.” End ID]

Damn, you said it, not me. I do love this book's determination to deconstruct every charitable feeling the reader might have about the Federation.

[Text ID: “Alone with Bashir, Garak looked at his friend. He circled in front of him. ‘Are you still with me, my dear doctor?’ He squatted in front of the hoverchair and tried in vain to make eye contact with his friend. ‘Are you blind to the sight of me? Deaf to the music of my voice?’ Bashir's silence and his wounded stare into an empty distance disturbed Garak in ways he feared to confront. This was not the man he remembered from Deep Space 9, or the confidant with whom he had trusted his private musings in the aftermath of the Dominion War. This man was detached from the world, in it but separated from it by a barrier as unbreachable as it was intangible. This was the shattered husk of a good man, the sorry remains of one who had refused to bend to the cruelties of the world and ended up broken instead.” End ID]

I didn't realize this book leads directly into Una McCormack's Enigma Tales (excellent book, go read it!) until this point. That knowledge makes this moment hurt more, I think.

[Text ID: “There was naught left for Garak to do now but keep his friend safe, in a clean and well-lit place, and give him whatever time he needed to heal himself—or at least to die in peace, with his last measure of privacy intact and jealously guarded by someone who loved him.” End ID]

Time to curl up in a ball and stare into the middle distance for a while...

[cdr2002]

So one of my favorite things the mirror universe does is put characters in positions their prime selves would hate.

Spock is forced into a leadership position neither version of him would particularly want, though his role as a revolutionary does echo his prime self founding the Unficationist movement later in life.

Smiley, similarly, has even more responsibilities thrust on him than the already overworked prime O’Brien. You just KNOW he’s still having to maintain that bloody space station while also leading the revolution and having to shut down Bashir’s stupid gung ho ideas (thank the prophets for Tuvok) and keep him from shooting their own guys (again)

Federation values peace first Georgiou is reflected by a brutal Emperor who later takes delight in working for Section 31, who are practically the Federation’s “Wolf Inside” to steal a phrase

Freedom fighter Kira is reflected by a slavering dictator who takes a perverse delight in causing cruelty and tries to garner validation while doing it in a manner not at all dissimilar to Dukat.

Tilly is TERRIFIED of Killy and she’s ever really met her.

But what if, for another way to show the mirror universe taking familiar faces and having things go catastrophically wrong? Before anti fascist revolution takes hold and hopefully steers things to a better path, that is.

The wrong people, in the wrong places. The worst people in positions of power.

The novels already had a kernel of this idea with Supreme Legate Dukat as leader of the Cardassian people, and without any Dominion deals to make it happen. Let’s expand on that.

First Minister to Bajor and second most powerful Bajoran after Intendant Kira? Why, Kai Winn of course. She may even take the role of Intendant after Kira’s fall from grace.

Leader of the Klingon people? Many stories give this job to Regent Worf, but I say, what if he is only a regional governor of a section of space under his rule? The throne holder back on Qo’Nos? The man with the cunning to place himself on top? No doubt with Cardassian help for “the good of the Alliance” of course. A man with no respect for Klingon tradition?

I submit to you, Emperor Duras.

Let’s go a century back, to. The Terran Empire would REWARD Kodos for his “original thinking”. A man with such power and prestige that Kirk can’t risk his career to kill him, but he would like to.

And let’s not forget Garth of Izar. Genocide is horrifyingly normal in the Imperial Starfleet, he’s NOT getting mental health treatment. He’s probably still a beloved war hero, maybe even a powerful admiral. A potential contender for the Emperor’s throne after the loss of Georgiou.

Sometimes the darkest reflections are all too familiar.

[idonotbitemythumbatyou]

The Mark by @hellostuffedtiger

Obsidian Order Agent, Garak's, latest assignment: surveil Doctor Julian Bashir, the Federation medical delegation’s lead doctor who’s been living on Cardassia, trying to find a cure for a deadly Cardassian illness. Tain wants damaging intel on Julian and he's counting on Garak to get it. If surveillance doesn’t work, he may always use interrogation.

I always appreciate when writers take the Soviet Union as inspiration for the Cardassian Union, and this one takes that concept and runs with it. Cold war vibes in desert weather. Spies commuting, clocking in, and talking shit. The characters we know are all one step away from how we know them in canon, because this is how they would be if their circumstances were ever so slightly different. I'm particularly fond of Garak's Tain-generation coworker. I based this cover on a few different Le Carré covers.

[fauvester]

postwar cardassia :: postwar germany, after a few years of abject disaster they hit an economic miracle based on tech innovation and end up with a striking half rubble/half high rise postapocalyptic thing. ally with romulas and the klingons. get a very mod fashion reboot. i want romulan bobs to be the newest thing on cardassia prime

[multiverserift]

I came across the question: If the USA is so bad, and Cardassia is meant as a metaphor for USA, there surely are a lot of illegal refugees wanting to come to Cardassia and become Cardassians, RIGHT?" Let's dissect that. I think the whole question is asked under a false pretense. Because Star Trek cultures are not meant to display "real" feeling cultures. We rarely see cultural diversity in a Star Trek culture. Because they mostly represent an archetype. Klingons all have something to do with honor. Vulcans have something to do with logic. Sometimes those broad strokes of cultural aspects are used to tell the story of a stray (Ferengi scientist Dr. Reyga in TNG: Suspicions) or someone caught between worlds (Spock, T'Pol, Worf, Quark), yes. But the cultures in Star Trek are mostly a canvas for a big problem or aspect, an idea.

The Federation is about hope and humanity. The good in humans won. We did it. The utopia is achieved, it is challenged, from within and without.

The Romulans were about the Cold War. About secrecy, militarism. More about them in a bit.

The Klingons are a bit more complex, because their role in the Star Trek universe changed over the years. Focussing on TNG era Klingons, they were the Proud Warrior Race© of Star Trek, the problems with that culture as a concept. Also, most Klingon stories in TNG were used to grow the character of Worf.

Now to the cultural aspect of Refugees. Ironically, we are first introduced to this concept by the Bajorans, violated by Cardassia. We see them through the eyes of Ro Laren (the one who assimilated into the Federation) and Captain Picard. Refugees, and Picard gives them blankets. How nice of him. Double ironically, we later in DS9 see the Bajorans deal with their own refugee dilemma enbodied by the Skrreeans in DS9: Sanctuary. And it's problematic, to say the least.

Where else do we see refugees in Star Trek? In PIC, and they are Romulans (here they are again). Sadly, PIC isn't very good at tackling those human condition problems, so it's all a bit superficial. Or maybe I should watch S01 PIC again. But I don't want to.

We also have the Caatati, the refugees disenfranchised by the Borg in VOY: Day of Honor, and they are desperate and aggressive, but we get a very Star Trek solution to the problem. Technology and Empathy, and it's kind of okay. Also, there is VOY: Counterpoint. But the refugee stuff is more of a background canvas for Janeway's boyfriend story.

Now to the Cardassians. Short answer to the question "Are there refugees that try to refuge into the Cardassian Empire?" is: We don't know. Long answer: We don't know because it's not the point of the Cardassians. What's the point? Easy: Fascism and Authoritarianism. And the stories about refugees in fascist states are more interesting when refugees try to get OUT from there. Which is what we get in DS9: Profit and Loss and DS9: Ties of Blood and Water.

We see Cardassia lose its authoritarian state to (kind of) moderately democratic rebels, only to get usurped by Dukat, sold out to the Dominion and get eaten by a merciless war machine. Which is ironic, because this is the heart and core of many authoritarian states. Which is, also, kind of the point.

The point is not "refugees". Because that topic isn't a Cardassian topic. Then there would be the topic of the refugees that Cardassia CREATES. Which is also interesting when I'm writing from a western country (Germany here), because, let's face it, we are not exactly the good guys here. Maybe there should be a few Star Trek episodes about this.

So to understand Star Trek, you have to understand that the races mostly embody a central aspect. Ferengi? Predatory Hypercapitalism. Betazoid? British MILFs. Vulcans? Horny math teachers trapped in the bodies of apathetic decathlon athletes. And don't get me started on Andorians, because to understand Andorians, I'd have to get into the context matters of ENT and oboy, it's a deep hot pocket of interesting facts. Lower Decks also did some nice things with Orions and Tendi. ENT failed the Orions. Man, I would have loved to see live action Tendi in SNW. I could ramble on but I stop now. Also, slightly altered repost because I still have no clue how the reblog distribution system of tumblr works.